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28-08-2012, 07:18 PM
Librarabbit asks a question that I think we all ask and probably continue to ask. And will continue to ask. What is the Emin?

It seems to be undefinable and unfixable. And if you were to ask 3500 people what is the Emin you would probably receive 3500 different responses – of which some may have similarities, but will all be unique and individual in many ways too.

My own experience and way of seeing things, and forgive me if I have already said this, I can’t remember what I have said and not said on this thread – is that, for me, the Emin is like a river. An always flowing river. And I jumped into that river in around 1992 and then chose to jump out again in 1997.

The river didn’t stop moving and become still simply because I jumped out. It didn’t stop when any of us jumped out. It kept and keeps on flowing. 12 years later I chose to jump back in again.

At first, I found myself in unfamiliar waters – familiar, but unfamiliar at the same time, actually. I knew the taste, I knew the feel but I didn’t really know the current currents, the waves or the flows – they were new and different and unexperienced. At first I tried approaching the whole thing with my old self, the old ways, the old knowledge. But of course, the Emin had moved on from 1997 and was now in the now. So, I could either scrabble away and try to bring the flow back to me (he he!), or I could simply ‘go with the flow’.

2 or 3 get togethers after that and I felt I was right up there where IT was. Whatever IT is. And it didn’t matter that I hadn’t been in the river for 12 years at all. I didn’t have to ‘catch up’ or swat or cram or anything like that. I just simply needed to be open to whatever the Emin is today. I still can’t define it though – in the same way I can’t really explain to anyone what water tastes like….

And that is the beauty of it all. It isn’t static, it isn’t the same thing from one day to the next. It isn’t the people, the people aren’t it – it is what it is regardless of us.

So, I can see why Librarabbit categorises Emin people as he does, there possibly are a few people like that still around. But there are probably at least another few hundred more categories of people to add to those four that you identified, Libra. Human beings would be very individual if they allowed themselves to be…

But it doesn’t matter, because we are ALL of us messed up by the pollution that we are bombarded with from the moment we take our first breath on being born to each and every breath we take thereafter. No-one is immune. But having some sort of idea of what that pollution is, what creates it, where it comes from and what it does and how it affects us gives us a bit more of a choice in how we deal with it and what we accept and what we don’t.

Anyway, that was triggered off by your comments, Libra. It was good reading them!

28-08-2012, 07:28 PM
Great post, Dreadwear. The sort of thing that keeps me interested in this thread. Open and humble to the huge variety of life. Thanks.

28-08-2012, 07:29 PM
But it doesn’t matter, because we are ALL of us messed up by the pollution that we are bombarded with from the moment we take our first breath on being born to each and every breath we take thereafter. No-one is immune. But having some sort of idea of what that pollution is, what creates it, where it comes from and what it does and how it affects us gives us a bit more of a choice in how we deal with it and what we accept and what we don’t.

Well said!

28-08-2012, 08:34 PM
Thanks Dreadwear,

I appreciate this thread goes through a sort of cycle whereupon an ex Emin member comes across this for the first time - starts asking questions and before you know it various spleens are vented and then someone pops up to calm things down as Mr Dread has done...!

I seem to remember that one of the expressions used in the Emin was that being a part of it was akin to a "love affair". Also things like, "you don't leave the Emin, the Emin leaves you.."

And like the end of an affair, sometimes it ends amicably and other times (predominantly) not..! Personally - my exit was incredibly undramatic as I sort of gently faded away..!

And, like an affair, the early days or years are usually remembered with a certain nostalgic affection.

That said, I do not think it would either diminish or "fix" the Emin by actually stating what it is. My previous skirmishes on here on what went on at Emin meetings was essentially about trying to come to terms with or gain a deeper understanding of what I was actually involved with. So therefore, through "chasing the rabbit" and having discovered that Sibelius was a mason and his music was used at those meetings is important to me.

One of the reasons I was attracted to this thread is that in my experience, people who have been connected with the Emin are pretty intelligent and in general nice genuine people (although there have been some notable exceptions to this and I would never employ an Emin builder..!)

So maybe one day, I'll find out what the Emin actually is..!!!


29-08-2012, 10:21 AM
Tuaday as I waiting in the hospital I bought a Guardian newspaper something I rarely do. There were a number of articles that caught my eye. I will put a few headlines down to illustrate. The first is about the subject on which FG has been enlightening us and which I suspect is the real reason for the increased readership here. It was a letter to the editor entitled “How hip-hop bailed in Obama” and referred to an article in G2 on 24 August. This is an extract and a link to the whole fascinating article:

“Obama is hardly the first political leader to reach power and face a backlash from artists who once supported him, but in the absence of the pro-Obama anthems we heard in 2008 or the deep-throated support of legions of performers, the voices of dissent have become especially pronounced. It doesn't help that some of Obama's major fans have changed their tune. Speech, of Arrested Development, who supported Obama in 2008, said earlier this year he was "disillusioned" with the president and would support the Republican Ron Paul instead. Snoop Dogg, another Obama fan in 2008, also seemed to throw some of his support behind Paul when he posted a picture of the politician to his Facebook page with the caption, "Smoke weed every day", a reference to Paul's marijuana-friendly platform.
Even those inauguration VIPs Diddy and Jay-Z have tempered their enthusiasm. In early 2011, Diddy told hip-hop magazine the Source, "I love the president like most of us. I just want the president to do better." Jay-Z also acknowledged problems with Obama's first term, admitting that some of the criticism directed at the president has been fair. "Numbers don't lie," he said last July, during a preview of Watch the Throne, his collaboration with Kanye West. "It's fucked up out there. Unemployment is still high."
When asked if he feels disappointed with Obama, rapper Nas expresses his continued support for the president but also his disillusionment with the political process that put him in office. "I've been disappointed by politics since the day I was born," he says. "The historic part of him being elected president was got, and everyone was happy about that, and I'm glad I lived to see it. The flipside is, after we get over that, it's back to the politics, and it's something which doesn't have time for people. It's its own animal."
This campaign season in the US has exposed this very tension – for rappers and for Obama. For their part, many rap artists are clearly torn between their allegiance to the first black president and their desire to be straight about conditions on the ground. The Wu-Tang Clan's track Never Feel This Pain, released last June, offers a lyrical glimpse of this ambivalence. Referring to Obama, Inspectah Deck says: "I never doubted him. I'm proud of him." However, these lyrics of encouragement are sandwiched between those of frustration. Speaking of his desire for a better life, he says, "I ain't waitin' for Obama," and continues: "Seein' is believin', my vision is blurred, 'cause I ain't seein' nothin' I heard, really nothin' but words." Album reviews have either read this as criticism or endorsement, but it's not that simple.
Nor is it for Obama. Facing a struggling economy and a crazy-eyed opposition that has dragged US political discourse to the right, he appears to be striking a centrist tone in order to reach crucial swing voters. This may indeed be the strategy he must follow if he wants a second term, but it's one that situates him firmly within the very political establishment rappers have long held in contempt.
Erik Nielson is assistant professor of liberal arts at the University of Richmond, USA”


There is obvious rage at Israel’s whitewash of Rachel Corrie’s death which it says was only in the Israeli news for 1 hour and few in Israel know anything about her. “For many Israelis, Rachel was a nuisance”
She was opposing the bulldozing of 1700 Palestinian homes that made 17000 homeless. 400 children have subsequently been killed. Seceral articles today on Rachel in the paper reflect the importance of the decision and ask why a 19 year old was in charge of the original IDF investigation and refused to interview witnesses.

A few letters querying whether Breivik is a psychopath or just evil.

“There are too many people on this overcrowded planet“ asks why having more than one child is so socially desirable when every one of them aspires to own a car.

“Scientists say we should all become vegetarians to solve food crisis“

“ Our medical records are to be sold off even though it‘s a clear that our privacy will not be protected”

“Polonium clue leads to Arafat murder inquiry” as France at last opens this.

“Two Tibetan teenagers die in self-immolations” the total is now 51 since 2009. ‘Lobsang Sangay, the political leader of Tibetan exiles has expressed disappointment that the self immolations have not received the same international attention as the similar suicide a Tunisian man that sparked the Arab spring’. I would ask why the Dalai Lama has not told Tibetans not to do this and takes some responsibility for these innocent lives who believe that this will help his cause rather than winding China up even more.

Opposition in Iran wants Ban to visit political prisoners there

Etc. the world is beginning to ask the right questions which leads to my next post

Reve x

29-08-2012, 10:42 AM
In the 60's/70's the ITV news was very activist and uncovered so much it was subsequently closed down. The main investigative news programme was 'This Week' which started with the Karelia Suite by Sibelius. It was on every night during the week.

Leo knew the programme well - all of us Londoners had watched it for years. Leo probably knew no other Sibelius music in fact. He used the music to programme us to be ready for the Emin news.

There is not much occult news in fact but there should be. The Fortean Times comes to mind but is not what I mean. I would say most of you reckon that you know what the Christian Church is, Judaism, Islam. Scientology is a bit secretive but most know what it is. So how come you dont know what the Emin is or was. It is not a river I assure you.

If you devote the better part of your 'higher' life to something you have to know what it is or you are quite mad and that is what i read here. Not just an unquestioning attitude but an attitude seeking to suppress any questioning at all and even suggesting that the early part of the Emin when Leo spoke his mind and explained it should be ignored. Burned.

Most do not know the actual origins of the Moslem faith, nor the Buddhist faith not the Christian and Jewish faith. That is one thing that has been written about here. When you do investigate with an open and common sensible mind you find out it is anything but what is preached now - it is almost all about angels, probably fallen ones if we are honest. But now they are big business and do not want that kind of investigation. Not the Vatican nor most of the scholars who get into a lot of trouble when they go there.

What is the Emin? Right - start with who Leo was talking to when he wrote Frownstrong and sat under that tree. Ask Orman from whom Leo had no secrets. What was discussed in the Hackney flat to start the sect/ What was the healing training for? The shields? The tests recited 3 times before sleeping every night? The Ipinions? The Eagle Endeavour and the eagles on the tunics? The Dragon on the wall and in the book Dear Dragon?

if you cannot ask these questions then you are living in delusion and contributing to something you have no understanding of at all. Tor may have driven Leo about and drunk wine at his table. He calls him the governor and is unquestioning. Those were the questions he should have asked the man. But if he had Leo would have said what he always said 'I will never talk about Frownstrong'. No one dared to ask him why not.

Wake up people please.

reve x

29-08-2012, 11:11 AM
So maybe one day, I'll find out what the Emin actually is..!!!

You'll no doubt have noticed that one person on here claims emphatically to know the answer to your question, including why it isn't better known. However, I think the main reason the Emin is not so familiar to the world at large is simply because it was/is very small, at least in terms of numbers. Similarly, most people have never heard of Beshara. Yet it does very good work, I believe. But it's small, too.

One factor in answering your question may be tied up with how you've applied yourself to the teaching in the Emin. Application brings insight, basically. It's the same with everything. If you decide to be a painter, say, but don't actually practice painting very much, your insights to the art are going to be limited. So, it may be that the question is really more in line with something like, "What kind of application of Emin teaching will give me greater insight?"

Tests are a good example. The idea behind them is that you provide your higher/more intelligent systems with the consistency they need to activate - by making a pact, in effect; a promise that you will perform a related act every day, without fail. But clearly, if you never actually do a test, and for a decent period (in my experience), not just a month or so, you'll never know what benefits they can bring, or discover that the benefit is often different to what you might have expected.

29-08-2012, 11:37 AM
the Emin is like a river. An always flowing river. And I jumped into that river in around 1992 and then chose to jump out again in 1997.

The river didn’t stop moving and become still simply because I jumped out. It didn’t stop when any of us jumped out. It kept and keeps on flowing. 12 years later I chose to jump back in again....

A lovely analogy. It takes a lot of courage for the "land loving" creatures that we are to give that up and throw ourselves into something far more powerful. And yet this planet is 2/3 water, but we all squash into the reamining 1/3. I love the sea. It radiates peace and harmony and cleanses the soul. You get pummelled by the wind and waves, but when I step onto land, people try to blow me up, shoot at me and are generally violent and vicious, if not upfront it can be seen bubbling beneath the surface in many.

And when the "waters go up" - what then ? They do go up, but for the time being they come back down again, and so long as we maintain the oxygen levels within the atmosphere, then the water will keep returning. It's a delicate balance and dependant on all the life forms that are here somehow managing to cooperate and co-exist. The troubles for mankind and the rest of the planet may originate in the electrical worlds, but until we can persuade all the people to start to care about looking after the physical world, there's little chance of cleaning up the electrical worlds. Just as we needed to cleanse, incense and prepare those dusty old church halls if we were to hope to invite something higher to attend, so too must some of us continue to keep the physical world in good shape that it may one day be a fit place for something better.
I never saw any "hiearchy" in the Emin - just lots of different people all doing different jobs. All part of something far bigger than any of us. We were never meant to be "all the same" or just a bunch of disciples following a master. I stepped out of the river and jumped into the sea long ago, but it's all the same water.

29-08-2012, 12:05 PM
Hi Reve

I was at the point of leaving this forum but for me there is unfinished business as you know and your last post re-ignited my curiousity.

I have loads of questions about the Emin - not only about what it actually is, which is absolutely fundamental...but also questions about how it actually began to reveal itself through those initial meetings.

Reve, you were there during those formative years and as such present to the enquiring mind, a rare, if not the only, opportunity to get things straight without the "fluff".

You see, my experience of the Emin was such that I considered every symbol, every piece of music, every lesson to have a solid reason and foundation behind that use. In other words nothing was arbitrary or random. Hence my alarm when I discovered that Sibelius was a mason (and they get up to some pretty nasty things) and his music was used at meetings. And then you say it was used to get people ready to receive Emin news. Fascinating stuff. (to me anyway)

I remember lessons or is it in Cobwebs and Tears (?) no matter really, about how children ask apparently silly but vital questions but gradually - through various put-downs etc those questions gradually diminish. So like an annoying child I keep asking..(and without the fear of sounding like a doubting Thomas) what is the Emin then..??

So I have always been intrigued about how Leo was "discovered" by people. The folk tale that was handed down to me what that people began to hear about his work and used to go to his flat for lessons etc and as the word spread, more and more people got to know about this man and there came a point where it was necessary to use church halls etc for meetings.

So my question is, how did people get to know about Leo? Who put the word out and what was the source of that word? For example, we got to know about David Icke through his television appearance on Wogan...that's how he announced his arrival.

As far as the Emin being like a river, I know that people want or need to be part of something that is elusive, you can't quite put your finger on it, it is mysterious, it's just a feeling - I suppose it's a bit like a magic trick - be prepared to suspend your disbelief and enjoy the spectacle and experience - if you were to discover how the trick actually worked, then that would diminish that experience..but as you have said Reve, why base your life on an illusion..?



And my Japanese monk encounter..I was quite aware at the time that my question about the disciples came about through my reading of Frownstrong.

29-08-2012, 12:07 PM
Up in the lovely English hills there is a spring, fine drinking water filtered through limestone pours into a small brook. Downstream a bit there are dragon flies and trout spawning. It is idyllic - people sitting in a punt eat strawberries under the shade of the willows. More streams join it rich in the nitrates used by the farmer to fertilise his fields as it winds downstream. Here is a factory making batteries discharging into the little river. Now a few more factories are sending their chemical waste to it as we head towards town. At last we come to the first sewage effluents as the river gets bigger, nevertheless drinking water for the city can still be extracted at this point. Bigger boats are using the river now and carrying waste out to the estuary for dumping. Here is a boatyard where the nuclear submarines are overhauled and give the crews a break. At last we reach the port where cars and vast containers are being unloaded from mighty ships. Hundreds of trawlers shelter in the harbour unloading the last few fish shoals they have located with their sophisticated radar but now of course our river has reached the sea where it discharges its polluted substances. Out in the estuary is the new oil terminal with a queue of supertankers waiting to discharge oil

Alright the Emin is a river but few have ever visited the source. It is also big business, a 'highway' and rich in history. And like so many rivers in the world a tragedy. Although the River Authority do not like to describe it as anything less than a vital organ and great success. My advice is to head upstream and see what it was.

reve x

29-08-2012, 01:20 PM
There are still two people who can answer your question. Ethra and Orman. You can pm Orman at least or visit Virsel and ask him. It was Orman who started the Emin.

At my first meeting with him Leo walked up to me and said 'ah you are the wizard'. I presume that Orman had told him about our meeting. Most of the people in Leo's circle then were mystical searchers who had heard about it from each other. Quite a few were American as was Ethra. Leo knew I would be flattered but soon put me in my place. People were touched by the Emin and their friends would be curious to find out what was going on. It started to grow exponentially as we all brought these friends. Perhaps too fast for the capacity. I joined Orman's circle, not Leo's after that first meeting but we still came together. Nevertheless it was stage 2 when Leo was becoming rarer in our lives. i would not say much about hierarchy then - but the notable difference was that some were taught by Leo and the Trio and others were being taught by those in his circle that he deemed capable of passing on the work.

At first it just came straight through. They had a lesson and we got it and in between we all met in the bigger halls. But of course as more joined it was obvious that we were a year behind, then more. So the more who joined had more groundwork to catch up with. Now certain subjects were restricted - they were for the ushers in Leo's group but the rest of us were not quite ready. And if you went to the suats called Emin Towers in Hampstead where the first Will lived for a while - a great man later called Ka- they would tease you about what they knew that you did not know. Of course some of us had come knowing about Gurdjieff being led blindfold to the Sarmaung Monastery, arguing about whether he was kidding us on and other hippy trail stories of enlightenment, tarot and magic. But Leo, Orman and the fizz were extraordinary even for the hardened hippies.

On the other hand it was clear that some of the ushers were strutting about pretending to know more than they did and beginning to put the newer members down like little Leos. People began to leave just as new members started to appear and the ushering techniques were refined to cope. It could not be helped but gradually it became harder to get close to Leo and even Orman. Then Beta... You could put your hand up at a meeting and Leo might pull you up on the square but even that was intimidating to most.

But I know your question is about what the 'Emin' was and not the politics of a sect growing. And it was clear from day one that it was not just Leo. It was a way and a very ancient 'way'. The trouble is that the Buddhists had covered the 'middle' way and Gurdjieff was famous for his 'Fourth way' on which the Emin was loosely based. Leo did not call it the 'Fifth Way' as some magician calls his sect these days but the 'Eminent Way'. That is where the word Emin derives - a kind of brand if you like. No one can own a way, just lead you down this garden path. But as time went on things began to change more radically and what had been a way was becoming a religion with a figurehead like most of the others.

The Emin way was for people to use to find themselves and learn about the world. It did not have to be anything - could be Tarot for Tagir and famously 'pressing flowers' for Ruth. But we all had a general grounding in a wide range of disciplines. Groundwork was the lesson that would bring groans 'right today we are going back to the law of 2'. World history was the exciting bit that sent you home ready to challenge your parents on what they did not know. Healing and the fizz were in my view a justification - something positive we could bring to the world and Leo once described how we would be wanted all over the world for our healing arts, the use of crystals and force. But the whole package was just part of this way which was attended by higher entities and elementals to help us.

Of course some went over the top - things went wrong and it became hard to control. When that happens in any country or society it inevitably leads to clamping down on individuality. And it happened. Instead on the nice ushers we had been used to a new breed appeared who were far more dogmatic and indeed unable to answer many of the questions we had. So these questions represented an undermining of the way, rather than an essential part of it. And as people stopped challenging Leo he too went over the top. The Ray of Obedience was a classic case. Leo was putting it in place without his head popping. And unfortunately the Emin lost its 'way'.

That is just my opinion but it is a reflection of those who were like me. Who did not climb over each other to control groups of people and were bog standard sub payers. I was a temple servant when the other 'Richard' then an usher told me about his levitation work. I looked at him and saw complete derangement in his eyes. But Orman never lost it - he just laughed at them. He could and can heal, knew much and had worked harder than anyone. So I really do suggest any here finding out from him what really happened and can still happen. i wish he would write here but do not think that writing is his forte. Woodenhills finds his way of teaching 'barracking' and it is. I think you Richard would find him a bit thuggy. But in fact it is just his outer cockney skin. He is the gentlest person really. i cannot claim to know him well and know he has a cheeky side. He never said he was perfect and we all knew he was not. But he was pure Emin and had much to put up with from his rather more difficult father. I suppose like some others I came to see him as the real force behind the Emin and Leo as a figurehead that he used to hide behind. Orman healed me of a condition on first meeting at a flat and overnight that was impossible to heal like that- a skin rash deeply embedded and bleeding, crusted and in my doctor's view very difficult to correct. Orman knew immediately what had caused it, literally before I showed it to him and the next day it had vanished completely without a pimple or scar. My father was so impressed he nearly came for a similar treatment but was happy for me to study Emin for years even though I gave him such a hard and unfair time and criticised his beliefs and ethics wrongly. You will hear tales about Orman and some despise the man, but I speak from a different experience.

It is more like this. Last year at Hampstead Heath i saw an elderly if spritely Japanese Zen master. We had someone's little yorky terrier with us and were going to have a croissant and coffee in Kenwood. He was dressed in grey and was meditating on a bench outside, barely noticeable to the many people walking in front of him. I felt him before we turned the corner and saw him. He was in a bright patch - in my old days I would say he was psychedelically enhanced. We looked at each other for a few moments, no smile just a look. There would not have been anything to talk about. My wife did not even notice him. He could have been an apparition but was not. When we came out he had gone. i suppose I would have had a chat had he still been there. But we did indeed talk to each other for several days after that look. Two people passing each other on a way, just as they do on a canal path. That could have been Orman or Leo. Sometimes the chat gets in the way - dilutes the reality, is an excuse for an ego in a space where there is none. Just a glimpse of recognition. As a youngster these were the ones I sought. Krishnamurti was one such man with just such a look when we passed in a Hampshire lane one afternoon - without a word. You only needed to see Leo once for that experience, and Orman. The rest is disciples. Would you help that man finish his work in that garden? I think i would - no not as a disciple but I can help with similar constraints on my time. Because lifting a heavy stone together is the 'way' and we are all capable of experiencing that. I am sure it is still to be found in the Emin, but it is as rare as the orchid that flowers one day in years and as hard to discover. Fate brings you together.

i ramble...but that is just my way

reve x

29-08-2012, 05:41 PM
A couple more bits of rappers with a Five per cent nation/nuwaubian moors origin:

Daniel Dumile or 'MF Doom' as popularly known, is probably the most interesting. in the early 90's he was on his way to becoming a star with his group "A positive Kause in a Much Damaged society" - KMD, and was using the name Zev Love X.

However the group where dropped by their label after a controversial piece of album art depicting a hung 'sambo' character - and the road accident death of Doom's brother and group mate. Apparantly Doom spent the next 4 years homeless in Manhatten and remerged in the 'Nuyorican' poetry cafes wearing a stocking over his face performing spoken word poetry.

' According to interviews with Dumile, he was also "recovering from his wounds" and swearing revenge "against the industry that so badly deformed him" '

Dumile too on the name 'MF Doom' and began wearing a metal mask similar to Gladiator hence MF- Metal Face. in 1999 he had quickly became a new 'underground' legend and man of mystery.

A young unmasked Nuwaubian Daniel Dumile when he was known as Zev Love X in the Longbeach Ansaaru Allah community
"I eat no pork/ So I can be as smooth as my man Dr York!"

KMD - Peachfuzz (Video) - YouTube

And an article on Dumile from the Guardian a couple of weeks ago:

Doom: 'It's all new, all fun'

Rapper Doom is back in London, the city where he was born, with Key to the Kuffs, an album that references rhyming slang and My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding

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Paul Lester
Paul Lester

JJ Doom AKA Jneiro Jarel and Doom. Photograph: Klaus Thymann

"It's really hot but it's got air-conditioning," says Doom, when asked if his mask might make things a bit stuffy on a hot day like today. "It sits a little bit away from my face," he adds, and this is important because it means he can still drink beer during the interview. "That," he adds with a chuckle, "is the main thing."

Daniel Dumile, AKA Doom, might have a reputation as hip-hop's harvester of sorrow, but right now, he couldn't be happier. Living in London, as he has for two years, allows him to escape his past. "I spent 35 years growing up in the US, and it had its ups and downs," he says, brightly, "but this is a new place for me. I have no friends here apart from the dudes at my record label, and I didn't go to school with no one. Nobody knows me – I'm incognito. It's all new, all fun."

The rap outsider does have some friends in the capital. There are cameos from Thom Yorke, Damon Albarn and Beth Gibbons of Portishead on his latest album, Key to the Kuffs, a superb collaboration with experimental producer Jneiro Jarel. The high-profile guests are a sign of the regard in which he's held: unusually for someone who has been in the game for more than two decades, his current work is as eagerly lapped up as his "classics". He is the only Golden Age rapper to have figured high in lists of albums of the noughties – his team-up with producer Madlib for 2004's Madvillainy was considered by many to be the decade's best.

He plays down his heavy reputation, saying: "Really, it's about the wordplay, the beat choices and the songwriting skills." But he can see how he acquired it. His early career, as a member of New York trio KMD, peers of the Native Tongues posse, foundered when his brother – KMD's Dingilizwe "Subroc" Dumile – was killed in a traffic accident in 1993. After run-ins with his record company over the title and sleeve of their second album Black Bastards, he went to ground, apparently spending the next five years living rough in New York. He re-emerged in 1999 for the album Operation: Doomsday as MF Doom, a character based on Marvel comics supervillain Dr Doom, sporting a metal-face (hence "MF") mask. A series of critically acclaimed albums, either as MF Doom or under other guises including King Geedorah and Viktor Vaughn, culminated in Madvillainy, and DangerDoom, a 2005 collaboration with Brian Burton, alias Danger Mouse. By this point Dumile had accrued near-mythic status, to the extent that he was featured on the cover of a magazine alongside the title The Mask of Sorrow, the attendant interview trailed as "the saddest hip-hop story ever told".

"I don't think it's a sad story at all – it's really a story of success," he says. "About how you can come from the bottom and be raised to the highest levels you can imagine." As for the idea of the avenging angel confronting an industry that mistreated him, and a world that robbed him of his sibling, this is a journalistic conceit, not a carefully cultivated persona.

"Doom is a classic supervillain, akin to the Phantom of the Opera," he explains. "It's not about revenge so much as like: 'I'm back – now watch this!' It all boils down to the music. The mask is a slight theme, for people to enjoy, and it adds mystery."

Doom's music has always been murky, his samples dusty from all those crates, his voice gruff, his raps torrential bursts of elliptical wordplay too dense and jerkily delivered to be described as "flow", but it's not as forbidding as the metal face suggests. People, he says, miss the humour in his work, and the delight in mischief-making. A couple of years ago, he allegedly sent "fake" Dooms to perform on his behalf at gigs. Even the hardcore faithful were incensed, when really it was an inspired device designed to subvert the notion of rap ego.

There is humour of the trenchant kind on Key to the Kuffs, with colloquial allusions to Blighty in Rhymin' Slang and Guv'nor, the odd reference to the likes of My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, and songs about everything from selling out (Bite the Thong) to seasonal affective disorder (Winter Blues). This track also expresses the feelings of longing experienced by Doom, or rather Dumile, an ocean away from his wife. He compares its marvellous murk to Marvin Gaye.

"It's not about sexual intercourse," he laughs. "It's like an old-school love song, about someone who feels: 'I need to touch you.'"

Has Mrs Doom heard it? "She loves it," he says, and one imagines him smiling beneath the mask. "It's her favourite song."

He considers Key to the Kuffs a departure, even by his standards. There is even a track called Wash Your Hands, about germs. Does Doom have OCD? "Doom can be paranoid, conspiracy-laden, super-sensitive and, yes, OCD-esque," he replies with a chuckle. "They're all aspects of the character's character. But I don't judge him. I just watch him."

Credited to JJ Doom (Jarel handles the loops and mangled electronics, Doom the complex verbiage), Key to the Kuffs details Doom's arrival and extended stay in the UK during which the supervillain "did his best to blend in", as the track Borin' Convo has it, dealing with the pressures, temptations and pitfalls of life in London.

The US underground/alternative hip-hop maven was actually born in the capital (his parents, originally from Rhodesia and Trinidad, emigrated to the States when he was a baby), which is why he has a British passport. He moved here after a mix-up at customs in America, during which he was refused entry back into the country in which he's resided for most of his 41 years. Mention of this prompts a 10-minute rant about airport authorities, although you can see his point – his contact with his wife and three children has been reduced to Skype communiques and the occasional visit.

"It's red tape, or whatever," he says, flustered. "Do I have a green card? I don't know about that shit."

Still, even alienation from his family and homeland can't darken his mood. Is he always this cheery? Is Doom not in touch with the anguish he must have felt in the wake of the events of the early 90s?

"We all go through things in our lives," he muses. "I'm trying to promote that way of thinking. Instead of thinking about things as happy or sad, I see them as events and experiences. You have to step back and be neutral. Am I the same guy now as I was then? Nah, I'm the same. Motherfuckers called me Doom then! I just didn't have the mask yet."

Doom is in an enviable position. The rapper/producer emerged alongside the sampladelic likes of De La Soul, but the music he's making now is likely to be assessed alongside the latest leftfield electronica.

"Who do I consider my peer group?" he ponders, before heading back into the sun, mask on face and beer in hand. "To me there is no time dimension. There's just an ever-expanding now now now now now. When I listen to hip-hop I listen to Just Ice, Boogie Down Productions, Ultramagnetic MCs. I grew up in that age, and it was memorable. But I'm down with all of it. Chuck D or Danny Brown? I feel comfortable with all of them. Word up, kid! Word up, man!"

Key to the Kuffs is released on 20 August by Lex

Jay Electronica is the other interesting one, who also lives in London now. He made the headlines a couple of months back for his affair with Kate Rothschild. He is signed under Jay-Z's 'Roc Nation' record label.

Russel Simmons mentioned him along with this nation of islam connection to the rap music

Growing up in Hollis, I always thought the flyest cats in the neighborhood were the Five Percenters. For those who aren’t familiar, the Five Percenters are an offshoot of The Nation of Islam that are named after their belief that people are divided into three groups: the eighty-five percent who are blind to God and the truth; another ten percent) made up mainly of elites like politicians , CEOs and members of the media) who know the truth but use it to exploit and deceive; and the final five percent, from which the group takes its name, who know the truth (namely that God is a Black man from Asia), but rather than abuse it, try to use it to uplift people.

While, as you might imagine, the Five Percenters have never found much mainstream acceptance, they were very well-known in the hood for the flamboyant language and accompanying philosophy they created called “Supreme Mathematics.” Growing up, I used to love to watch the “Gods and Earths” (as members of the group are known) stand on the corners and “drop jewels,” their term for philosophizing about religion and the true role of black folk in America.

While the Five Percenters’ silky smooth style of speech would go on to have a significant, if underappreciated, impact on the language of hip-hop, I personally never got too deep into their entire scene. While I loved listening to those smooth niggas hold court, ultimately I was more concerned with gang banging, getting high, or chasing girls to spend too much time thinking about the jewels they were dropping.

Recently, however, I was reminded of just how deep the Five Percenters really were after I fell in love with a song called “Exhibit C” from the rapper Jay Electronica. In the song, Jay tells a story of living on the streets (“without a single slice of pizza to my name”), where he wastes years “shootin’ dice, fighting and smoking weed on the corners/ looking for the meaning of life inside a Corona.” He remains stuck in that negative cycle until he’s approachd by several Five Percenters, who, as he puts it, “inform” him of a truth which finally awakens him from his unconscious state: In life, they tell him, “you either build or destroy.”

As I listened to “Exhibit C” over and over again, I began to really appreciate the wisdom in the “jewel” the Five Percenters dropped on Jay. Though I had never thought of it in those terms before, it is undoubtedly true that through our actions and our mentality, in life we are either “builders” or “destroyers.” The “builders” are focused on trying to elevate not only themselves, but the world around them (knowing that by elevating others, they elevate themselves). The “destroyers” never awaken from their unconscious behavior and as a result destroy themselves and everything they come into contact with.

Jay Electronica - Exhibit C (Prod. Just Blaze) (LYRICS) - YouTube

When I was sleepin on the train,
sleepin on Meserole Ave out in the rain
without even a single slice of pizza to my name
too proud to beg for change mastering the pain
when new york niggas were calling southern rappers lame,
but then jacking our slang
I used to get dizzy spells and hear a little ring
the voice of a Angel telling me my name
telling me that one day imma be a great man
transforming with the MegatronDon spittin out flames,
eatin wack rappers alive shittin out chains.
I ain't believe it then.Nigga I was homeless
Fightin, shootin dice, smokin weed on the corners
tryna find the meaning of life in a corona
till the 5 percenters rolled up on a nigga and informed him:

"you either build or destroy. Where you come from?"
"The Magnolia projects in the 3rd ward slum"
"Hmmm... its quite amazing that you rhyme how you do
and how you shine like tou grew up in a shrine in Peru."

Question14 - Muslim Lesson 2: Dip diver, Civilize a 85er.
I make the devil hit his knees and say the Our Father.

You rockin with the True and Living
shot out to Lights Out, Joseph I, Chewy Bivens,
shout out to Baltimore, Baton Rouge, my crew in Richmond.
While y'all debated who the truth was like Jews and Christians
I was on Cecil B, Broad Street, Master
North Philly, South Philly, 23rd, Tasker.
6 mile, 7 mile, Hartwell, Gratiot
Where niggas really would pack a uhaul truck up,
put the high beams on
drive up on the curb at a barbecue and hop out the back like "what's up!"
kill a nigga, rob a nigga, take a nigga, bust up
That's why when you talk the tough talk I never feel ya
You sound real good and you play the part well
but the energy you givin off is so unfamiliar
I don't feel ya
"We need something realer!"

Nas hit me up on the phone, said "What you waitin on?"
Tip hit me up with a twitt, said "What you waitin on?"
Diddy send a text every hour on the dot sayin "When you gon drop that verse nigga you taking long"

So now I'm back spittin that 'He Could Pass A Polygraph'
that 'Reverend Run rockin adidas out on Hollis Ave'
That 'FOI', 'Marcus Garvey', 'Nikki Tesla'
I shock like a eel, Electric feel, Jay Electra

They call me Jay Electronica
Fuck that. Call me Jay ElecHannukah
Jay ElecYarmulke
Jay ElecRamadaan Muhammad Asalaamica RasoulAllah Supana Watallah through your monitor.
My uzi still weighs a ton check the barometer
I'm hotter than the muthafuckin sun check the thermometer
I'm bringing ancient mathematics back to modern man.
My momma told me never throw a stone and hide your hand.
I got a lot of family, you got a lot of fans.
That's why the people got my back like the Verizon man.
I play the back and fade to black and then devise a plan.
Out in London, smoking, vibin while I ride the tram.
Givin out that raw food to lions disguised as lambs,
And, by the time they get they seats hot,
And deploy all they henchmen to come at me from the treetops,
Im chillin out at Tweetstock,
Building by the millions,
My light is brilliant.

Jay Electronica in Nepal "Dimethyltryptamine" (final edit) - YouTube

[Verse: Jay Electronica]
Pigs with the heads of men spat acid
That lasered my third eye closed like LASIK
A midget in a casket like a baby in a bonnet
With a bottle and a basset horn playing the theme song
From Children of the Corn, oh I must be dreaming
A lady in a night gown puffing kush screaming
Signalled me over, "Psst, you with the waves
I’ve seen from the Catholic church steeple diggin' graves
I got your number sonny
So ain't no use of fighting, yelling or running from me"
"I never ran ma'am", "Well then you ain't a clever man Sam"
Listen, the two-faced king from Britain and Rome
Had a baby in a bush on the grassy knoll
Where they peel back the orange head peel of a gnome
He said "Hey MC, I know you like killing 'em
You terrorized the skies for 25 millenniums
Now you settin fire to land
You the lion, you the savior, the messiah, the lamb
You need back up, you moving on the youth at dawn
Call Badu and get Tyrone on the megaphone
Tell'em I sent you and your codename is Megatron
If trouble comes use your brain like a telephone
He'll take you to the Chocolate City
Where two-face and the prince of darkness had a Committee of Snakes
Drill 'em, let the skin peel off to reveal him
Then spray 'em wit them rhymes you like spilling
Hit 'em up real, real good but don't kill him
We only want to burn him to the point that they willing
To give the location of the blank face villain
Who split atoms and give mushrooms to civilians
Hiroshima never recovered and all the evidence was smothered
Under a thick cloud of rubble
The pope is his brother
The hillsides is his mother
That statue with the torch and steel eyes is his lover
She's a harlot, who stood still like time while New York turned scarlet
And the levee monster sucked up New Orleans
While they was playin' man vs. man in Afghanistan
With they mind on Iran, Iraq and Sudan
Let him recruit you, he will try to use his powers to seduce you
Just let him think that the feeling is mutual
Because if he found out that you already knew
The atom had a positive, a negative and a neutral
He'll probably salute you
Then wait till you turn your back like a coward and shoot you
People this shit is crucial

Laserbeams from the eyes again - what is that?

29-08-2012, 06:30 PM
In the Museum in Heraklion, Crete is a small Minoan statuette of a ‘goddess’ clutching a snake in each hand. You can see a picture here:


She is called the snake goddess. A book was published in 1976 which changed many things, discussed the end of the Goddess cults in the face of the Indo European patriarchal cults and hence Judaism with its male God. Babylon has a similar tale where Tiamat the salt & fresh water creatrix goddess is destroyed. She is considered to be part of the Nammu cult. The gods were warned that she, the dragon or serpent one, was on the warpath. and very angry with them. i am hoping that fg will tell us more about how the one who warned the gods is identified with Angelina, who now calls herself Lady Gaga as he pointed this out to me, just as he has pointed out so many musical curiosities to me.

In this book ’When god was a woman’ the snake goddess is shown on the cover. The book did much to develop feminism and was highly influential but I seldom hear of it now. It was written by a remarkable woman who died last year and her name is Merlin Stone.

Reve x

29-08-2012, 07:06 PM
In the Museum in Heraklion, Crete is a small Minoan statuette of a ‘goddess’ clutching a snake in each hand. You can see a picture here:


She is called the snake goddess. A book was published in 1976 which changed many things, discussed the end of the Goddess cults in the face of the Indo European patriarchal cults and hence Judaism with its male God. Babylon has a similar tale where Tiamat the salt & fresh water creatrix goddess is destroyed. She is considered to be part of the Nammu cult. The gods were warned that she, the dragon or serpent one, was on the warpath. and very angry with them. i am hoping that fg will tell us more about how the one who warned the gods is identified with Angelina, who now calls herself Lady Gaga as he pointed this out to me, just as he has pointed out so many musical curiosities to me.

It is not something I noticed but read somewhere (maybe somewhere on this site) and mentally noted.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211586That's not it, but the images where taken from wherever i read the reference between the two., post #3.

I don't know what they are saying about saturn worship but I think it is something to do with Kaballah along with Madonna.

30-08-2012, 07:43 AM
"So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late." Dylan /Hendrix

Three years ago I met an 87 year old Turkish man on the coast south of Konya, We had half a dozen words in common and to begin with we'd greet each other with mock salutes. One morning a tourist boat passed by with music blaring, "Dance muzik!" he exclaimed, eyes twinkling, part mockingly but more in mischief.

I found myself spontaneously turning upon the spot, he immediately joined in and this became our daily greeting. We'd each revolve, a few feet or 50 yards apart it didn't matter. It had no fixed pattern or duration, at the end we'd come together and embrace.

For me the embrace was like joining onto a line of history going back, back, back... the Turkey and the near east that has all but disappeared. A strength I hadn't encountered before (the fixed, hard, dark side of strength was present too, it wouldn't surprise me from this and the very impressive way he had clicked his heels together when saluting that he had killed in anger), more than a man, he was an area of land. His body and rhythm of motion would blend into the landscape as he worked, his fingers became extensions of the thorny stunted bushes he loved to spend hours thinning out and shaping, allowing them to grow tall and provide shade from the relentless summer sun. It was an inhospitable landscape tamed only along the coastal fringe. He owned one of the last unspoilt oases.

He was totally unselfconscious and would greet me the same regardless of guests or visiting businessmen, what could I do but reciprocate. ;) Men, women and children watching attentively, warmly smiling and getting into the spirit of it all for a timeless .....as the waves cascaded over the rocks that lined the bay.

I got to see a fair bit of Leo, mainly due to an administrative glitch, I was on my way to his flat for some small group development type meeting in 1974, it turned out that I had been assigned to the wrong group and destination, Leo was on his way to the hall to meet with Beta, Taemar, Tristan and the pleasant tall canadian gentleman whose name escapes me........and now me, as it turned out.

I'd better explain that the people I've mentioned were members of Leo's original group, I was a relative newcomer of 6 months, but I was up for it. I was Jesus Christ in waiting, after all.

I do wish that more of you here would come off it, so serious in yourselves, I'm not taken in by it.

I guess a little autobiography is due.

I was there for ten years, with a great diversity of experience. Along with Gima I 'earned' establishment in record time for then, second soon followed, then third and onto silver beacon by 1975. (Don't pay much heed, this was the Usher fast-track era, in modern parlance the exams had suddenly become much easier to pass)

Having one of my own students suddenly stand up and proclaim with heightened emotion that she didn't know who I was, or what I was connected to, but it was something mighty and akin to God..... well what do you say to that?

Being lifted out of my chair by a big whoosh of force and looking down on the tarot group I was taking from near to the ceiling, the guy opposite actually keeled over in his chair and had to be revived - that was my first ever class I took... six months in. I tell a lie, under my own steam and without consulting anyone I had gone to Thra's group and advertised a storytelling class, half a dozen signed up and when Tagir my Usher found out [he shared a flat with Thra] he took it well, Aurora his partner had broken it to me very gently and smiling a lot, that it wasn't the normal protocol, I guess they admired my enthusiam.

Prior to that I had been one of the luckiest guys in the Emin, I got to attend Aurora's storytelling class along with Rose, and two or three other ladies from Leo's group. I was a lousy storyteller and had consigned myself to a life of anxiety by volunteering in the absence of other takers at the commencement of the Green circle. Not knowing at what point in an evening I would be asked to deliver a story wasn't good for the nerves.

Where was I?

Practical meetings with Leo once a week for a while, Leo's Hierophant group, Emin two, taking Tarot and Astrology classes, I set up a Tarot and palmistry stall in Portobello road. Helping/hindering, Orman,Tagir, Thra and Tristan as one of the assistants to their groups, Leo's group again, The Ceremonies the Eminent Way,The setting up of the church in Florida, the Eagle Endeavour, getting fed up and doing my own research and music, turning down requests to help teach out of town groups, the ridiculous a,b and c groups, the moody motives and then sweet relief - Emin Theatre.

I am all too familiar with what the typical Emin person got up to inside, the holies, feeling special, afraid, nervous, hiding, hoping the finger wouldn't rest upon them, not feeling good enough, feeling invincible, totally exposed,

Well I've been where you're hanging, I think I can see how you're pinned:
When you're not feeling holy, your loneliness says that you've sinned (Leonard Cohen)
Maybe a concerted super effort will get me there, the angst at being overlooked for promotion or recognition, the strut when being promoted, being verbally cut up out there on the floor by the Usher as a Silver Beacon night after night by Ushers who had caught the Leo desease, it's not the same as sitting in the circle, the pressure exerted upon you is tremendous, taking groups was a doddle by comparison, bickering between people, people angling behind the scenes to get in with the in crowd, the price of speaking up against the current order of things, having students go behind your back because the tarot card you were teaching turned up in uncompromising fashion. No personal development Tagir warned me the next meeting, the justice card came on strong last night I said, it was a great evening, he laughed and said serves 'em right.

It was decided for me in the summer of 1976 when a pleasant young emin couple I bumped into on the street went all self conscious upon spotting me, they weren't seeing me they were responding to a perception of an Emin rank - a silver bacon (beacon)

That was the clincher - I'd had enough!
Despite my enthusiam which was on the wane I could see that I'd also been up my own arse for far too much of two and a half years.

By then I didn't give a fig for conquering the world, Leo's head going, getting an emin island or country retreat, that would be dire I thought, the only thing that had kept things in check was the time and decor limits of the church halls. The gospel oak centre and then putney confirmed this, The same happened to Emin Theatre when it finally found a centre, without limits Peter began to go off the scale, not in a good way, I might add.

The growth of multiple tracks available to musicians has not improved music, it produces a more dead sound because you don't have to play several instruments together live or bounce tracks, when you bounce tracks all sorts of unforeseen and benefical variables can appear. That's what the pre centre emin was like, often the variables came from the people, Leo then organised it, The fizz first turned up as people came to Leo, he organised and attempted to bind it.

You know what they say about organization
Krishnamurti: “You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."
Leo's antipathy toward Krishnamurti is unsurprising, Krishnamurti attempted to overthrow the entire conception of the Power Game in 1929 as he dissolved the Order of the Star.
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others..

Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern.

A Search in Secret India: Paul Brunton used his accounts of meeting Ramana Maharshi to convey his own ideas of power and occultism; the image of the sage transmitting an unseen power, this was confirmed by himself later on and by independent witnesses at the time.

Everywhere we turn we are under a spell woven by unreliable correspondents, Ramana read Brunton's book and then would describe his insights to westerners using some of the terms Brunton had used. ;) Ramana never agreed with the power game however
In order to display siddhi there must be
others to recognise it, which means that there is no jnana in the person who displays siddhis. Therefore these are not worthy of any thought. Jnana alone must be aimed at.

In my experience insight arises within, not from some outside agent, when I met Thra (one of the four ushers to the triangle) I was hitching a lift, it wasn't some transmission coming from him to me in the car, a floating sense gradually arose in me as it would by imbibing a substance, I stuck the transmission bit on afterwards by recalling the Brunton passage that had so impressed me a few months prior to that.
The hall is becoming pervaded with a subtle, intangible and indefinable power which affects me deeply. I feel, without doubt and without hesitation, that the centre of this mysterious power is no other than the Maharshi himself. [1]
The other guy who had also hitched a lift didn't find the info anything more than interesting and he'd just returned from india, he was an intelligent chap and we discussed it afterwards when we got out, we got on well, he felt nothing to write home about, whilst I was floating inside. The 'fizz' is not an absolute or a given, nor is it purely an outside agent, there is a relationship, perhaps even a brain condition that predisposes a person. Certainly not a high destiny or special calling.

Leo came up with a symbol in 1989 to demonstrate basically that he was one up on the whole of history, when all he had done was appropriate the cognitively potent mandala symbol (see jung), plonked a black bit in the middle and surprised everyone by saying that darkness represented God rather than light. Well, this might have been news to cloistered Emin folk but the hindus, bhuddists and taoists would have been smiling to themselves at hearing such familiar terminology. An 'impersonal' force surrounded the heads of the ushers in the symbol, well yes he could no longer trust anyone to do the job having gotten rid of or marginalised the best people, he had to use the icon to get the punters around the world to comply because trouble was rife in the memberships.

Then the crowning glory, the ordinary member has nothing at core, krishnamurti et al missed out on their royalties there, but Leo should have known better than that, it is impossible to have emptiness or nothing without something, without everything else the universe. One glimpse with your own unseen eyes can show you that. Form is void, void is form, the buddhists maintain.

Then we had the cone with the leo jupiter symbol linked directly to the unfathomable darkness. The only one direcly linked please note. The others if they are lucky get to trog up the levels of the Ray of Creation as represented by the connections around the edge of the mandala, I don't know about Hampstead Heath but Leo was well and truly up his own tree by then, elevating himself above everyone in history and misrepresenting other religons in the process, Surely he must have known about Nagarjuna's warnings or Hui Neng's
"When you hear me speak of emptiness, don't become attached to it, especially don't become attached to any idea of it. Merely 'sitting' still with your mind vacant, you fall into notional emptiness.

The boundless emptiness of the sky embraces the 'ten thousand things' of every shape and form - the sun, moon and stars; mountains and rivers; bushes and trees; bad people and good; good teachings and bad; heavens and hells. All these are included in emptiness.

And didn't Leo claim that the processes leading up to this icon were instrumental in bringing down the Berlin Wall a month after the lecture in Florida?

Oh I forgot....the future. the universe is still evolving growing, best be in readiness, I guess you are fed up with me by now, so I won't mention where that one comes from. ;)

TM and a hundred other organisations likely claimed the same thing - you know crime falls whenever tm holds a major convention and all that jazz - they're all at the same thing. We did it, no you didn't it was us, get off it it was us.

The point of the Emin is to wake up surely? Talking of rivers some guy called Leo has been sitting by one dishing out water to you all and charging for the privilege (An old zen thingy)

What holds us in thrall to authority? I think this goes to the heart of it.
Krishnamurti: "The moment you really see that the question, 'How can I change?' sets up a new authority," he said, "you have finished with authority forever."

The tic toc of fizz-development fizz-development was the engine that perpetuated the emin, we saw the fizz as a transmission from outside when it wasn't purely that, and development as an inner requirement, which it wasn't necessarily.

The fizz arrived long before the first people had time to significantly develope, it wasn't a requirement. It was used to get us looking to ourselves or preoccupied in becoming ushers and ladies who would go forth and spread the word, missionary zeal it was called, whilst all manner of strokes were being pulled on us. Carrot, stick, carrot, stick, approval, disapproval, look up the psychological effects of prolonged exposure to that alternation of tic and toc if you would be so kind to yourself?

Deliberate or misguided, Leo's pension scheme or high purpose in life? a mish mash of the two I'll leave that to you, what is clear, is that from the evening Orman bunked off without notice from the Green Circle onwards, there wasn't time or expertise enough to go round. JK51 called it opinion on my part, but later Leo flat came out and stated that all individual PD sessions were finished save with him and possibly Orman. I mean, really, is going up to the Gurdjieff establishment in hampstead during a one on one pd session and speaking in gibberish to the guy who opened the door personal development, you think I jest? or being encouraged to walk the entire length of a train with a notice pinned to your chest stating I am not personally involved. I don't recommend it, even if it toughens you, it scars as it does, tough guys and girls have thick skins for a reason, they are sitting on a tough mountain. I have to ask myself why was I up for this type of stuff anyhow?
Other far from lesser people don't feel that need, they don't require an obstacle course.
"Part of the 'guru' is "enlightened," wise, knowledgeable, and he's mentally living in this enlightened part of himself. He believes that he *is* that part exclusively, ignoring the other parts which have been cut off and dissociated from his conscious awareness. He becomes identified with the guru aspect of himself exclusively. The other parts, however, do not disappear. They still exist, but are simply disowned and relegated to the unconscious." - Charles Morrison

Unfortunately there can be no doubt that man is, on the whole, less good than he imagines himself or wants to be. Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is. If an inferiority is conscious, one always has a chance to correct it. Furthermore, it is constantly in contact with other interests, so that it is continually subjected to modifications. But if it is repressed and isolated from consciousness, it never gets corrected. (Carl Jung - Psychology and Religion" (1938))

Reverse the polarity and locations of that tic and toc and it is my contention that you'll become a lot closer but still at a considerable distance from what is true from your own perception - isn't truth what the Emin is about? I doubt that you will find it by objective methods alone, it is easy to overlook the value of the subjective, but the observed regularity that appears as duality tells us that. Two sides of the same mountain as the chinese describe yin and yang.

Why aren't Leo and the Emin known about? because anyone can see for themselves through a little research they are derivative in logos and structure. And because the initial trump card the 'fizz' is a highly localised phenomenon of dubious benefit, a double edged sword.

Look, Sirs, you know in all this are various powers of clairvoyance, reading somebody’s thought. There are various powers, you know what I am talking about, don’t you? You call them siddhis, don’t you? Do you know all these things are like candles – candlelight in the sun? When there is no sun, there is darkness, and then the light of the candle is very important; but when there is the sun, the light, the beauty, the clarity, then all these powers, these siddhis, are like candlelight. They have no value at all. And when you have the light, there is nothing else – developing various centres, the charkas, kundalinis, you know all that business.


I'll finish this shaggy dog tale with Douglas Harding, he has a more homely way of putting things. But as I mentioned previously I'm not recommending anyone I've mentioned carte blanche, I am eclectic.

KP: Certain disciplines, if practised arduously at sgreat sacrifice, can lead to fairly extraordinary experiences, but they’re simply experiences, and we are over-looking the experiencer?

DH: Oh yes, indeed, and one of the traps, one of the side diversions of this whole thing, is at a certain stage to cultivate the siddhis, powers, that do come with the seeing of who one is— and they do come. And it’s different for different people. Some people get a good old helping, others don’t. But that’s one of the snags, one of the diversions, and it’s a very serious one.

KP: And perhaps because it’s simply just that, an experience—no matter how extraordinary it is—it’s what prompts those who have these to don some fancy clothing and set themselves up on a pedestal.

DH: I think that in some cases, yes—and it is to get power over others and this is the criterion, really. I mean, am I out to get power over people? And one of the ways to doing it is to claim that one’s special and dress up in a special way and put on holy airs and so forth. I think this is such a pity.

30-08-2012, 09:23 AM
just a perfect day up here. Thanks wh. They say some wine improves with age, especially if there are cobwebs on the bottle and it has then right date on the label under the dust. You can sell that for a bit more. Some of our hippy experiences seem to have a bit more to them these days than when we were cold, white as the say up here, and sitting on Devastation Hill awaiting the man. And perhaps the clever ones got to sell their memories for a good price. Then someone pipes up that it was heroin that Lou was singing about and the day is a bit overcast.

Enlightenment was the name of the games last night, and reaching for the stars. Escaping our prison be it earth or disabled form and rising above it. It is very inspiring.

Gaga (or kaka) was the messenger of the Gods who warned of the catastrophe heading in from the sea. She was seen to be a moon of Saturn and equated with Pluto. Apparently Angelina used the rings of Saturn in some picture or other. Her charity work is there for all to see who see her as a Madonna. She got the name from Queen, Freddie Mercury.

My abiding picture of Krishnamurti was a few days after bumping in to him and his female minder picking blackberries I guess 1973/4. It was at his mansion and he was giving a talk. I fell asleep instantly and supposedly missed most of it. But I awoke as there was a stampede for lunch in the adjoining marquee. By the time I got there queues were at the tables, excited chatter and a jolly time. Then I noticed this little man standing in the corner on his own looking a little lost. We did not speak then either, just an almost imperceptible nod and recognition I assumed from the lane the day we first 'saw' each other. On that day my friend had driven off at speed in the old camper van when I tried to get out, telling me that you cannot approach a man like that uninvited. That was my hippy friend Graham Morris who lived near the mansion and sadly died last year. It took me many years to come to the conclusion that he was right and I did not need more than that look. Notice the cobwebs and dusty label on this bottle of mine - it is how you tell them!

Having despised Paul Brunton for years for misleading me in his Secret Egypt book, after enjoying his Secret India one, I now credit him for instigating my personal search for the truth. It was that Graham who first told me in hushed stoned tone about Gurdjieff's trip across the Gobi desert on a platform carried by sheep who had to eat each other, mixed with Gobi sand, to make it across to the hidden brotherhood. I think these are just sparks to get our motors running, and like siddhis not much good on their own in the light of day. But they serve a purpose and so does Leo's tale about the contract under that tree. Graham's guru Rex told him that he was one of the expeditionary force that had come to earth thousands of years before from Simarillion. Rex was King Arthur and Jesus and the leader of course. The Emin usher Ermin had also met Rex before he met Leo and was a bit in awe of the man too I recall.

Many of the cut & pastes in the preceding pages are about the curious words containing the letters M and N in the Emin as the ancients did not write the vowells they assumed were obvious. They are all over the place. It does not 'mean' anything but collectively perhaps show the magic that is all around us when we look. Man can be so much more than a beast, but the beastly man does not like the idea of that. You may have noticed that wh is a great teacher although he talks that down and will send you away if you want to be his disciple. That is what the hidden masters here are like.

i am going to tour a brewery today with a Scottish police sergeant and we will have supper in Glasgow. Last time we met he took me to St Mungo's tomb in the Cathedral here, showed me Shiva in the Museum and around the oldest house in Glasgow. I am a perpetual student and love my teachers. That is the way of hidden masters - they can teach you and be anywhere and nowhere. Then there is the 'night school'. Do not be put off by the sheer volume of knowledge any more than a bee by a field of blossom. Any page here will reward a visit. We collect what we can and hopefully love the experience. How we will miss our bees. What is needed is for all of us to open our little eyes and do our own little things. One bee cannot pollinate a field though some talk as though they do!

Finally today i must point out that Tor, JennM, Dreadwear and Rainbow/JK51 are as vital here as any and perhaps more so. Without the challenge there can be no serious lesson and they have tenaciously allowed us to discover in the original Emin way what is true and what is not. i have been no harder on them than Leo and his ushers on us. They no harder on me than we were, and are, on Leo and Orman. There is more to light and darkness than meets the eye but without both there is no form as we see above.

reve x

30-08-2012, 10:31 AM
Good morning reve, I have just realised that I was still wearing a petzl head torch in brightest day. Straight up, it's a long story! That explains the quizzical looks.

I feel I should have corresponded with fg, rs, richard and the others here more, I admire their je ne sais quoi......
if that helps at all? ;)

30-08-2012, 10:38 AM
you are quiet and too modest in my view while I am quite the opposite - perhaps we can swap.

reve x

30-08-2012, 01:39 PM
I left the Emin because I felt it was impossible to be myself, impossible to be an individual.

I joined in 92 so was a late comer but it seems the Society had by that stage fixed itself in the intellectualism and herd mentality that governs it now. I did get my training outside of the main 'thing' but that in its way was no better, and I suspect, even worse in terms of the tyranny exerted upon us.

I find it sad and disturbing that we live in a world where any teaching that tries to align the human to its natural birthright gets hijacked the way it does by that which uses the human as food. The Emin teachings I found miraculous, and I was one of those 'sensitives' for whom it was never a matter of words on paper. But in being such a person, there was no room for me among those whose Emin was only ever in a notebook, in the greed to collect more and more archives.

This, I believe, was the reason Leo wanted people to burn their archives. Instead of living it, of becoming the fine, enlightened humans that the work was designed to engender, they adopted the words and postures, becoming parasitic repeaters. If they could only have seen the attendant entities this behaviour invited.

The Emin is absolutely an occult organisation, it always was, but the attitudes prevalent have invited the kind of occult that we supposedly joined it to escape. And I think that people can't see it because the preponderance of written work, and the lack of sensitivity training deludes them that it is some kind of a 'course', like college learning, albeit more off the wall. The village in Israel is the nearest, I think, to what Leo envisaged for us. I have visited it three times and been awed by what attends it. Although it's four or five years since my last visit and much may have changed.

It's disturbing, reading through this thread - it seems that the arguments are all personal, for or against Leo, Orman, whoever, and about politics that went on 40-odd years ago. This goes on inside the Emin society and seems to continue outside, no matter how long ago a person left. None of this will ever be resolved by the organisation itself, it can only be resolved by each individual inside themselves.

I don't know whether I was fooled by the whole thing or not. But in order to carry on living the best life I can I have to sift through my experience in the Emin, the best and the worst of it and find what value there was. That's what I want to carry into my future, not the dross.

Let the dead bury the dead.

30-08-2012, 04:32 PM
Hi Reve, Woodenhills and readers of this thread,

You have posted some generous insights into what was/is(?) Emin but I have a question...so the Emin...what is it then? (just joking)

You've provided plenty of food for thought and possibly many further areas for discussion if people are that way inclined (and you are willing to go there..!)

From 1985 to 1989 (my Emin membership years) in retrospect I became part of the emergence of the "corporate Emin". This was the era of "loadsa money". From my initial search for truth and a different perspective on what this life is all about things turned into setting up Emin businesses including pushing electrobix as the next big thing.

By my third year, an Emin chap involved in the music industry purchased a large property in Bishop Stortford for Eminent Theatre use. I went there only once and for me, it just didn't feel quite right.

I remember the chap who purchased the property, and prior to our visit, came up to Nottingham and spent most of the evening meeting, talking to us about how he purchased the property, outbidding Ozzy Osbourne no less, and encouraging his staff to sell more records etc so that he could do the deal. He even went into some detail about his arrival in Nottingham and the hotel he was staying at where he pulled up at the hotel entrance and (through the use of his special powers) managed to have his car parked for him by the hotel staff in the exclusive car park. I was thinking wow, the car must have been a bit of a wreck or something (to have justified the use of the special powers) but turns out it was a top of the range Mercedes.

I missed the charm of the church halls and even the various rituals that went along with that. I longed for the Emin experience my uncle had told me about but it had "moved on" by then, so they say. I think Leo re-locating to Florida was probably the final piece of the (I'm not too sure about this anymore) jig-saw.

At various points in this thread I have sensed/recognised corporate Emin language coming through and prior to this post, checked out the current Emin/template information and it reminds so much of the Emin I left. I'm not really into "developing" myself in order to get a better paid job etc...and I would be a terrible salesman.

So, thanks all, I think I have reached some form of "closure" re Emin and at the same time re-invigorated my quest, such that it is.

Woodenhills - would love to hear your music if you are willing to share it? I have some tracks on Myspace and ReverbNation but the music I produce is very much what I consider to be works in progress and am thankful for the Emin in that respect as the visit to Nottingham by a chap who called himself Tor who spent an evening with us on all aspects of music, provided a brilliant platform to work from.



30-08-2012, 08:51 PM
The village in Israel is the nearest, I think, to what Leo envisaged for us. I have visited it three times and been awed by what attends it. Although it's four or five years since my last visit and much may have changed.

Excellent Manaanan please say more about this village as it was as this is what i have been asking for. Did they have an attitude to the displaced Palestinians who once lived there? Did they have any views on the third Temple? What was it like? What attended it? You leave us all in suspense as to what exactly Leo may have envisaged for us as so few of us have had this experience which may be why we are stuck in a rut, have unfinished business or whatever else negative from the experiences. Do we bury the victims with the dead?

more please

reve x

31-08-2012, 01:08 PM
Maybe of interest - old article from the 90s will follow up shortly on their present situation.

Word for Word/The Raëlian Agenda; And You Figured Cloning a Human Would Be Their Biggest Challenge

No, the true task Raël was given was to build a suitable embassy for his alien visitors to meet with earthlings, preferably in the Holy Land. According to the group's Web site, http://www.rael.org/home it has not been easy, with $7 million raised for a project that could cost three times as much. Following are excerpts from the group's own account of its long, lonely quest for an embassy -- and a country to put it in. NOAM COHEN

The children of Abraham are part-descendants of the Elohim, and it was especially with them that the Elohim retained contact as a way of progressively educating the rest of humanity. That is why all the main religions are waiting for their messengers to return to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem, the ''city of peace,'' has always been the privileged point of contact between the Elohim and humanity. Solomon's Temple was the original embassy welcoming Yahweh, and the embassy which is now being prepared will be the Third Temple.

Dec. 13, 1993: Peace for Israel was scheduled to begin on this the day of the 20th anniversary of Yahweh's encounter with his Prophet Raël.
Regrettably, peace is postponed.

more here

That is why all the main religions are waiting for their messengers to return to Jerusalem.

Jesus, who promised to return on a cloud, Muhammad who said he would return from the seven heavens on al-Buraq, along with Moses, Buddha and all the other prophets, who are presently living with the Elohim, will return with them to the embassy as foretold. This will demystify and yet vindicate Jerusalem's spiritual role.

December 1979: The Elohim telepathically transmit the same dream to seven people: Rabbi Israel Abou Khatzira, Rabbi Mordekhai Shaarabi, Rabbi Halberstamm, Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, Professor Leon Manitou Ashkenazi, President Menachem Begin, Chief Rabbi Ouiadia Yossef.In a message given to Raël on Dec. 13, 1997, the Elohim explained that in accordance with their Covenant, they have given the State of Israel its chance, but now almost 20 years later, the State of Israel still has not recognized them. They cannot wait any longer, their new Covenant with the children of Israel is coming to an end and the Raëlian Religion can now address the request of ambassadorial status to any country in the world.

Once another country gives this authorization, Israel will be given a last chance to grant their authorization during a very limited period time of reflection, and if not, the Embassy will be built elsewhere and the people of David will lose their protection and disperse.

This decision was made with much regret, but the organization should have seen it coming. The final entry in the timeline, from 1993, notes a scheduling mix-up in the Raëlian plan for peace in the Middle East:

Dec. 13, 1993: Peace for Israel was scheduled to begin on this the day of the 20th anniversary of Yahweh's encounter with his Prophet Raël.
Regrettably, peace is postponed.

end quote

31-08-2012, 01:32 PM
Almost sure that it was one of Rael's scientists/geneticists that worked on the "clone Dolly the sheep"

Also they maybe involved with Cryogenics? Freeze dead people and want to try and bring them back or make a new cloned body, while having their soul/consciousness on standby, to uploaded/download on a computer from a computer to a person.
Or put another way...
The Raelians are into this cloning and plan to upload peoples consciousness (souls) onto hard drive, then download it into a new body.

This could serve two purposes they try to incarnate certain entities into certain bloodlines, we think the Egyptians and others believed and tried to reincarnate the same entities/souls/spirits into the same families generation after generation.

The head of the religions kings etc where believed to be Gods/Goddesses incarnate. Hence the need to keep their bloodlines pure (maybe why the Elite families Today breed with one another)

Before Rael and cryogenics, they would mummify bodies.
So maybe this is what Rael is up to behind the scenes they want to create more bodies as hosts. Capture the souls onto hard drives, clone the bodies, and bypass the process of reincarnation. And possibly escape Karma.

Rael claimed to have met Yahweh who landed in spaceship and talked to him.

Below some info from their site

At the age of 27, Claude Vorilhon (now known as “Rael”) was living his passion as a race-car driver and journalist. That was to change on December 13, 1973, when, on his way to work, he had the UFO encounter that transformed his life forever. From that day forward, he has toured the world recounting his astonishing experience in media interviews and conferences.
Listen to Rael as he describes in detail what he lived that day.

The Maitreya: Extracts from his Teachings
Rael, the predicted “Maitreya from the West”, shares his teachings and insights in this wonderful book of extracts taken from the many Raelian seminars at which he has taught over the past 30 years. A multitude of topics are covered in this book, including love, happiness, serenity, spirituality, contemplation, the myth of perfection, non-violence, science, loving relationships and much more.
This is essential reading for anyone interested in developing his or her potential and wishing to live a more fulfilling and joyful life..

Yes to human cloning
Today’s new cloning technology is the first step in the quest for immortality or eternal life. What past religions used to promise only after death in a mythical paradise will soon be a scientific reality here on Earth – this is Rael’s challenging conclusion in an incisive and wide-ranging review of how science is about to revolutionize all our lives.
With rare vision, Rael sketches details of an amazing future in which our nascent technology will revolutionize and transform the world.


31-08-2012, 01:36 PM
Elohim Embassy

The Raelian Movement is a non-profit, international organization. It unites those who wish to inform humanity of its true origins and tell people about the very special messages sent by the Elohim, highly advanced extraterrestrial scientists who created life on Earth, including human beings.
But spreading this knowledge is not the only goal of the Raelian Movement. Another primary mission of our organization is to prepare an official embassy to welcome the return of our creators.
Through their messenger, Rael, the Elohim have respectfully expressed a desire to come and meet with us. But since they wish to come only if their presence here is welcome, they ask that we first demonstrate our desire to invite them by building an appropriate embassy in advance of their arrival.

That embassy would become the Third Temple as predicted in the ancient scriptures. According to specifications provided by the Elohim, it must be built in a neutral location that has been granted rights of extraterritoriality and guaranteed neutral air space. Providing such an embassy and obtaining the necessary guarantees for the rights of its occupants will prove that humanity is ready for an official meeting with its creators.

(Detailed plans and specifications for the requested embassy are available at www.ElohimEmbassy.org.)

The Raelian Movement recently asked a number of countries to consider hosting the embassy project, and several have indicated an interest in allocating space for such an endeavor. Preliminary discussions are already under way!
As shown in the document presented to the various governments approached, the Embassy for Our Fathers from Space will bring substantial financial benefits to the country hosting it. The fortunate nation will also enjoy the special protection of the Elohim and become the spiritual and scientific center of the planet for millennia to come.

Rael: Messenger of the Elohim
At the age of 27, on the morning of December 13, 1973, while he was still leading his successful racing-car magazine, RAEL had a dramatic encounter with a human being from another planet, at a volcano park in the center of France, known as "Puy de Lassolas". This extra-terrestrial gave him a new detailed explanation of our origins and information on how to organize our future, as recorded in the book: Intelligent Design. After six consecutive meetings in the same location, Rael accepted the mission given to him, to inform humanity of this revolutionary message and to prepare the population to welcome their Creators, the Elohim, without any mysticism or fear, but as conscious and grateful human beings. After a few months considering this huge task, Rael almost developed a stomach ulcer before finally deciding to give up his much loved career as a sports-car journalist and devote himself fully to the task assigned to him by Yahweh - the extra-terrestrial whom he met. Within the year following the encounter, he managed to print the book reporting about the event and appeared on two of the main TV and Radio shows in France, announcing a public conference. This first public conference held in Paris on September 19, 1974 attracted more than 2000 people. Shortly after, he founded the association MADECH - a group of people interested in helping him in his huge task- that would later become the Raelian Movement. By the end of the year 1974, the association counted 170 members. They are now more than 70000 members in 97 countries.

On October 7th, 1975, he had a second encounter and was given additional information recorded on his second book, also part of Intelligent Design. Since that time, Rael has been touring the World, giving conferences and seminars on every continent, gathering those who share the desire to welcome our Creators.

He also authored several other books like Sensual Meditation which is a central part of his teachings, "Geniocracy" advocating for a more intelligent management of the planet and "Yes To Human Cloning" explaining the possibility of becoming eternal and the beautiful future one can expect thanks to Science.

Over the years, Rael has inspired several public actions from the promotion of the use of condoms in schools to the promotion of masturbation; from worldwide campaigns in support of minorities with the slogan "to tolerate differences is not enough, one should love differences" to the disturbing request to have all Religious books censured where they don't respect Human Rights; from the support of Human Cloning through the founding of Clonaid, to the promotion of GMO as the only chance for all human beings on Earth to have food; from the creation of Clitoraid, an association to help women who have been circumcised to have their clitoris repaired so that they can experience pleasure again to the call for the gathering of all African traditional chiefs to create the United States of Africa.

Rael has been a guest on most of the major TV programs worldwide like 60 minutes, CNN, FOX, and BBC news programs, as well as programs like Breakfast with Frost and Entertainment Tonight, to name a few. He has been invited to explain his vision of science to the American Congress and has been the guests of many leaders of this world, with the President Denis Sassou N'Guesso of Congo being the first to welcome him officially in 2000. Many artists acknowledged him as well like the French author Michel Houellebecq and Hugh Hefner.

In every culture on Earth, a messenger is expected, whether it is the Maitreya of the Buddhists, the Messiah of the Jews, the Paraclet of the Christians, or any other name that has been given by the many tribes around the world. This expected messenger, like all the previous ones, isn't supposed to please everyone, but to state what our Creators are expecting from us. This is what RAEL has been doing for more than 30 years now, traveling relentlessly while making the vow not to own anything, but to give everything towards welcoming our Creators in the Embassy they requested be built before 2035.

31-08-2012, 02:05 PM
for the most violent creatures ever to come here? Poor Rael like so many others is being taken for a ride.

But let us see whether the Emin village is going to put it all right - give the land stolen back*, compensate the victims and knock on the head the Temple and itrs sacrifices while we get on spreading a little common sense in the world.

I am still under ATTACK. Who on earth has it in for me for asking questions and copying a few wiki articles?

Reve x

*The saga over the illegal settlement in Migron is typical. The 'settlers' object to the alternative settlement built for them nearby by the Government, the ritual bath is not ready, the synagogue incomplete, the kindergarten a 'joke', tractors making dust no good for their asthmatic children and unsafe, while the local Palestinians live in cardboard huts. They also object to unguarded Arabs walking about. The signature on the land deed they say entitles them to the land they 'bought' is forged and the Palestinian they say they bought it from died immediately afterwards but had opposed settlements all his life. But can they move them, even with a Court Order?

I am hoping Manaanan can let us know how the village works and how many Palestinians live in it. Or is it just for ....

31-08-2012, 07:13 PM
As Britain ignores its own hungry citizens and gives 300 million to India, the Indian Giovernment also decide to ignore their homeless and starving and spend the lot on warships.

But that is peanuts to Berezovski the multi billionaire Russian oligarch fugitive in London who loses his 6.5 billion law case against Abramovitch the Russian oligarch multi billionare who owns Chelsea football club. Both are Jewish men who did well in Russia which is good after so many decades of persecution there.

Obama praises Romnney for his passion for his Mormon religion being a very committed Christian himself. Romney says Obama is selling Israel down the river. Both pledge to do more for poor little Israel ignoring the fact that they have more and more homeless hungry people on their streets and that israel has now prevented any hope of restitution of the West bank or the possibility that the camps will ever empty where 4 million Palestinians are imprisoned and have been for over 40 years.

The world is mad, gets madder every day. If there is to be a Third Temple it had better be addressing the issue that the world's grain harvest has failed this year. The result that worries the politicians is that food will increase in price and inflation rise. The actual result will be millions starvinbg to death as a result and before our eyes.

There will be a big expensive war next, one whose cost will dwarf all the figures above. One whose cost in blood will ring down the centuries. And for what?

the answer is religion. Confucius was wise when he told his followers to be practical and ignore the spirits (angels). They have no love for us.

So where is the answer to my question about this Emin village and what is going on there? There are hundreds here today who want to know how it is going to help us all.

reve x

01-09-2012, 03:14 AM
While Mitt held his convention in Florida I believe, the hurricane named for the father of Jacob & Esau (Israel & Palestine) ws raging.

I see this actually as Tiamat raging at the gods. She the goddess of fresh and salt water. While the presidential candidates banter and fight her Pacific has a rubbish tip bigger than Texas, soon bigger than the US as no one does anything to stop it. Her fish and whales decimated, the oceans acidifying and killing her crustaceons the little cancer crabs etc. She is dying and of course is angry. But gaga warns the gods in vain and they turn on Tiamat, rather than change. The rivers are poisoned. How wise the ancient Iranians with their laws against polluting a running stream or river. Draconian but prescient. Tiamat is the sea dragon. When she dies so does life on this planet. But they are still arguing between themselves, Jacob & Esau and embroiling us all in their pointless war

Where is the Emin? In Florida, in Israel in the middle. She was going to save ‘our lady who is pregnant’ this world. Is she helping? I cannot hear a squeak - just ex-Emins coming here objecting to such discussion.

It is 3am and I have just endured the worst attack yet. Far from running out of energy that must be used in such an attack, they are growing and many must be fuelling these probably unwittingly.

Do we really just give up? That poster ‘Help the planet’ may be 40 years old but it was also prescient. It was all about us, literally all. Finding a way to help life from imminent destruction.

Am I mad? Or is everyone else? I am just one of many protesting - like Israel loves Iran, Greenpeace etc. But we all get punished for our inconvenient views. After all this is election time! It is also end of the world time but that is just the elephant in the room as they say. Probably the last elephant. Please stop attacking me whoever you are - can you not see the news and what is happening outside? That we can stop this madness with a little common sense while you look at plans for building another bloody temple?

Reve x

01-09-2012, 08:31 AM
is another thread on the general section here and is the best ever example of the Law of 7 at work. If you do not know it have a look and be amazed. this is from the most recent page a post by Bushdoctor - I cannot reproduce the brilliant picture that is shown there but perhaps fg knows how to do that. Definitely worth checking out, esp any emins/ex Emins:

All roads lead to Astrotheology.


Babylonians grouped the stars in companies of seven. References are made to the seven Tikshi, the seven Lumashi, and the seven Mashi, which are older than the signs of the Zodiac; so far as can be ascertained these groups were selected from various constellations. When the five planets were identified, they were associated with the Sun and Moon and connected with the chief gods of the Hammurabi pantheon.

In alchemy, each classical planet (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) was associated with one of the seven metals known to the classical world (silver, mercury/quicksilver, copper, gold, iron, tin and lead respectively). As a result the alchemical glyphs for the metal and associated planet coincide. Alchemists believed the other elemental metals were variants of these seven (e.g. zinc was known as "Indian tin" or "mock silver"

☾ The symbol for the Moon has been used since ancient times to represent silver.

☿ The symbol has been used since ancient times to represent both the element quicksilver (mercury) and the planet Mercury.

♀ The alchemical symbol for copper, perhaps a stylized mirror, was also the symbol for the goddess and planet Venus.

☉ The Sun symbol has long represented gold.
♂ The symbol for Mars has been used since ancient times to represent iron.

♃ The alchemical symbol for tin is also used as the glyph for Jupiter.
♄ ]Saturn is represented by the alchemical symbol for lead.

Solar system and a vital Organ

Sun........... Heart
Moon......... Brain
Mercury..... Lungs
Venus........ Kidneys
Mars.......... Gall bladder
Jupiter....... Liver
Saturn....... Spleen

Classical planet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Classical planet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Classical planet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The most recent page also has the 7 signs of the Apocalypse but earlier pages show how extraordinary this angelic number is too

reve x

having a 'splitting head is not to say it will pop up with the ray of obedience. It just hurts!

01-09-2012, 02:36 PM
This ancient Pictish (Scottish) carved stone from around 800AD shows much about how intolerant Christianity has become and how changed. The poor stone, now considered one of the great medieval treasures, was deliberately smashed a couple of hundred years ago because it said too much. Pictures on Google show how beautiful the Pictish/Celtic art was.

The thing about this stone is that it is covered with snakes and had an image of the 'Pictish Beast' which is the bit they tried to throw away, but was retrieved from the nearby river. It goes back to the first monks, many of whom settled in Scotland for safety.

The eighth-century Pictish cross-slab at Nigg is one of Scotland's greatest art treasures. Admired and studied by scholars all over the world, its ornamental cross resembles a manuscript page. The fantastic intricacy of the carving, the whirlpools of spirals, and the heaped up knot of snakes, with tails and tongues endlessly intertwining, is only paralleled in the illuminations of the great Gospel-Book of Kells, made at the island monastery of Iona.

The carvings include a unique illustration of a miracle, the first monks, Paul and Anthony, receiving bread in the desert from a raven sent by God: and David, King and Psalmist, saving a sheep from a lion, his harp (modelled on a contemporary Pictish instrument) beside his shoulder. The treatment of these themes speaks clearly of the spiritual and pastoral concerns of the early monastery on the Nigg headland site.

Almost every religion plays this game and tries to remove or deface the things that it starts to find embarrassing. The Emin is doing this now of course. Is it not totally unjustifiable later when more tolerant minds look back, or try to, at the real history. Were Christianity, Islam and Judaism still practising and preaching what they started with, rather than inventions put in the mouths of the founders - then I am sure we would not have Presidents stating that they were Christian or Mormon, arming Jews to fight Moslems. It is childish and the world needs to grow uip fast and tell them.

If Obama at his Convention talks about the world on its last environmental legs, the oppression of the poor and tyranny of the rich and corporate, and how he will correct this over the next 4 years then he would get my vote and most normal peoples in fact. What are the odds of that though? Mitt looked like an actor playing a satyrical comedic part, perhaps some comic taking the mick out of Reagan. His wife, who is admirable to say the least, also looks the part unfortunately. The tragedy is that it is for real and no one can do anything about it. But in hundreds of years time they will gasp at our gullibility. David Icke's highly controversial, latest newsletter illustrates what I mean better than I can say it. Whatever they were being told the sight of the entire US Congress leaping to their feet every few minutes to give a standing ovation to Bibi, without one person there shouting 'b...s....', says it all. The world is lost, the lie has won.

Any news on the Israeli Emin Village, as Leo envisaged our future? If not is that saying something?

reve x

01-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Todays news in Haaretz the oldest newspaper in Israel yet a stern critic of the war mongering etc:

Former Mossad chief: An attack on Iran likely to foment a generations-long war
In contrast to former Mossad and Shin Bet chiefs Meir Dagan and Yuval Diskin, Efraim Halevy speaks not in black-and-white but in shades of gray

Efraim Halevy was an integral part of the Israeli security establishment. Between 1990 and 1995 he was deputy head of the Mossad and the architect of the peace treaty with Jordan. From 1998 to 2000 he was head of the Mossad. In 2002-2003 he headed the National Security Council. Nevertheless, in regard to Iran, Halevy’s voice was for years an exception. As early as 2007 he argued that a nuclear Iran
By Ari Shavit| 08:45 01.09.12 |

Republican Convention Journal: Romney’s ‘King’s Speech’ moment
The Republican candidate’s polished acceptance speech included a bellicose foreign policy chapter that may please Israel and American neocons but will trigger alarms throughout the world.
By Chemi Shalev| 15:43 31.08.12 |

Arab villages, bulldozed from our memory
Our beloved Tel Aviv, whose reputation for enlightenment and openness is world renowned, is built in part on ruined Palestinian villages - and refuses to acknowledge it.
By Gideon Levy| 12:48 31.08

In his RNC speech, Romney says Obama 'throwing allies like Israel under the bus'
While Clint Eastwood set the blogosphere on fire with his speech, the Republican presidential candidate didn't pull many punches, with criticism of Obama's foreign policy, and promises of a brighter future.
By Natasha Mozgovaya| 08:03 31.08.12

If soldiers shun orders to strike Iran, Israel will cease to be a state
A state of seven million prime ministers is no longer a state; it’s anarchy. It is the role of the citizens, not the soldiers, to protest against harmful national policies.
By Dr Samuel Lebens / Jewish World blogger| 17:48 20.08.12

Israel’s chief rabbi warns Dutch populist politician over kosher slaughter ban
Yona Metzger tells Geert Wilders his party’s support of a ban on ritual slaughter of animals is ‘anti-Semitic’ and could drive away the Netherlands’ Jewish communA bill proposed by an animal rights party stating that livestock must be stunned before being slaughtered passed through the lower of house of parliament in June 2011, but did not make it through the senate, where a compromise was reached allowing the practice to continue.
Both Muslim halal and Jewish kosher laws require animals to be conscious when they are put to death. Some 3,500 cows are slaughtered annually according to the Jewish kosher ritual in the Netherlands.
The loss of backing from prominent Jewish leaders could be damaging to Wilders, who has enjoyed support from pro-Israeli and anti-Islam organizations in the United States.
He has received death threats because of his anti-Islam views and has around-the-clock security.
Manfred Gerstenfeld, a prominent Israeli author, said in a telephone interview from Jerusalem that the banning of ritual slaughter has been used in Europe to deter Jews.
"Are you going to support a guy who is at forefront of the anti-Semitism movement in Europe?," he said.
By Reuters | Aug 30


reve x

01-09-2012, 04:14 PM
An alternative man woman mystery:

We are one lower and one higher and half in between. One conscious but only half semi conscious, one unconscious but only half semi conscious which is part of both and where the two merge.

So you have one and a half on both sides, they total two and a half and that is a whole person. Really it is just two people a person and a spirit but the soul is part of both. When you are born you are new, but you have what some call a guardian angel. In fact that is the fully formed person or ka born at the same time. You are born for example 1 day old and 70 years old and there is a bit of you that has both of these.

Now if you want reincarnation put it in there as the guardian angel but it does not apply to all of us andf you will only ever be semi conscious of it.

When you meet someone else there will be six judges of this. You, the other one, your two kas and your tow semi conscious entities. Who gets to decide. It may be purely physical - the two conscious ones or something else between you that you never quite understand. However as you go through life more and more of you will understand why you are with Mr or Ms Right and at the end you will both be your fully formed person. But at death you will all go separate ways I am sorry to say. Your conscious will have finished. Your unconscious will be released if it is any good. And the two souls will have emerged as the offspring if you like and may return as the guardian next time if they are lucky. Or that is how one could interpret both the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the dead and most afterlife preaching religions.

How many beans make 5? One and a half, two and a half and a whole one.

If conscious you can learn to talk to the one at the end of your life, which is easy if you accept the possibility, or if you are even half aware of this one then you will know what I am writing about

Reve x

01-09-2012, 04:41 PM
to the left is a very old 'way'. A well trodden path on the Presellis about 6000years old. I found a bit of a very old stone bowl just here - wishful thinking might suggest part of a cauldron in fact judging from its apparent circumference. It should be in a drawer in some museum of course. 200 yards to the left but out of sight is the grave (bedr) of the watery monster Afanc. It was a bit boggy down there. Straight ahead a very interesting place if you can reach it. A long 'way'.

reve x

01-09-2012, 04:44 PM
Meanwhile I am watching John Travolta play a dancing, womanising angel in Michael (1996). Maybe he is right

reve x

02-09-2012, 09:21 AM
Lest any suspect me of grotesque biase this is from today's Reuters:

A bail hearing will be held on Monday for Masih, whose case has re-focused a spotlight on Pakistan's anti-blasphemy law.

Under the law, anyone who speaks ill of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad commits a crime and faces the death penalty.

Activists and human rights groups say vague terminology has led to its misuse, and that the law dangerously discriminates against the Muslim country's tiny minority groups.

Critics of Pakistan's leaders say they are too worried about an extremist backlash to speak out against the law in a nation where religious conservatism is increasingly prevalent.

Convictions are common, although the death sentence has never been carried out. Most convictions are thrown out on appeal, but mobs have killed many people accused of blasphemy.

The case is horrible - a child with Down Syndrome accused of burning the Koran when it appears the cleric planted the pages in her bag. I am just pointing here to the fact that all over the Islamic world are draconian sentences imposed for any criticism at all of the Prophet or his book. Not one for burning his archives obviously, except any inconvernient original ones perhaps. But this is not confined to Islam - miost religions object and discourage debate and criticism - did you ever hear any in Church?

In the 60's Perry Mason was the nation's hero, the lawyer with a brilliant mind who fought successfully for justice in a difficult place. A recent article on psychopaths reiterated that they are around 1% of the population and pointed out that they may be lawyers with no conscience at all for destroying a rape victim's life. Perry's difficulty was coming up with evidence. Anyone can state something but a bit of evidence is needed - copy & paste is fine if referenced. Mananaan can we have a bit more on the Emin village. Personally i do not mind the inference that I am having a go at Leo for something that happened 40 years ago, nior you repeating the old adage of Jesus 'let the dead bury themselves', which they obviously cannot. But your titillating comment about what Leo really envisaged for us all, a community, cannot stand without some explanation can it? At least not here where we are allowed to criticise without being gunned down. Or are we?

I did not have the nightmares last night. My dreams are targetted because I am a dreamer. Most of you would not remember them so it would be a bit pointless. I mentioned once that Leo claimed to be the only three thirds man alive. That meant that he was aware of all three parts of his brain, including unconscious at the same time. I have my doubts about this claim but know where he was coming from and he was quite 'aware'. Dreams are in our semi conscious and often give an indication of what is behind us, all planned out ahead. That is the basis of that 1.5, 2.5 and the whole one - although it is not what the saying really meant and not exactly like that. I wrote about it as Leo often used the expression and Egeion once suggested it was a nuclear formula which got Leo very excited at the time.

All gone very quiet here as happens from time to time. I think we are all waiting for the Man........

reve x

02-09-2012, 12:51 PM
An article in Haaretz pricked my curiosity. found this 2011 article as a result It is about how things happen:

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- The enthusiastic response that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received when he addressed the U.S. Congress on May 24 came from both sides of the aisle. Democrats and Republicans both took part in the numerous standing ovations. Afterward, Democrats and Republicans made statements criticizing President Obama’s positions and supporting Israel’s.

But perhaps it is not so surprising that the prime minister was able to attract such bipartisan support because his father accomplished something similar 67 years ago.

In the summer of 1944, 34-year-old Benzion Netanyahu was the executive director of the American wing of Ze’ev Jabotinsky's Revisionist Zionist movement.

One of Benzion Netanyahu’s tasks was to help mobilize support in Washington for free Jewish immigration to Palestine and the creation of a Jewish state. That was no small job at a time when the British opposed Jewish immigration and statehood, and the Roosevelt administration preferred not to intervene.

The Revisionists often used tactics that the mainstream Zionists considered too aggressive. For example, Netanyahu and his colleagues repeatedly placed large advertisements in The New York Times and other leading newspapers with headlines such as "The White Paper Must Be Smashed, if Millions of Jews Are to Be Saved!" and "Is America to Be a Party to the Palestine Betrayal?"

These challenges to Allied policy did not sit well with mainstream Jewish leaders such as Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was deeply loyal to President Roosevelt, the New Deal and the Democratic Party. In his private correspondence, Wise called the president “the All Highest” and “the Great Man.”

Much to the Jewish establishment’s chagrin, Netanyahu actively cultivated relationships with Republican members of Congress and party leaders. For Wise, building friendly relations with FDR’s political foes was inconceivable. For Netanyahu it was political common sense. Roosevelt had no incentive to address Jewish concerns if he believed Jewish votes were in his pocket.

Only if there was a credible threat of Jews voting Republican would FDR see a reason to reconsider his cold policy toward Jewish refugees and Zionism.

In the months leading up to the June 1944 Republican National Convention, Netanyahu and his colleagues undertook what they called “a systematic campaign of enlightenment.” They met repeatedly with former President Herbert Hoover, 1936 GOP presidential candidate Alf Landon and influential Republican members of Congress such as Rep. Clare Booth Luce (wife of the publisher of Time and Life). At a Revisionist dinner that spring, Luce said Great Britain’s blockade of Jewish refugee ships bound for Palestine was to blame for the fact that “Jewish blood stains the blue Mediterranean red.”

In their meetings, the Revisionists asked the Republicans to include a pro-Zionist plank in their 1944 platform. Neither party had ever formally endorsed the cause of Jewish statehood, but the GOP leaders clearly were sympathetic. On the eve of the convention, Luce called Netanyahu to say, only half joking, "I’m going now to do your work at the convention."

Meanwhile, an additional lobbying effort was undertaken by Abba Hillel Silver, the activist Cleveland rabbi who in 1943 had been elevated to the co-chairmanship of the American Zionist movement alongside Wise. Silver, who enjoyed a close relationship with Sen. Robert Taft of Ohio, lobbied Taft and other leading Republicans on the platform issue.

The GOP’s final platform not only endorsed Jewish statehood in Palestine, as Silver wanted, but also criticized Roosevelt, as Netanyahu wanted. It declared: “We condemn the failure of the President to insist that the mandatory of Palestine carry out the provisions of the Balfour Declaration and of the mandate while he pretends to support them.”

Furious and embarrassed, Wise dashed off a letter to the president declaring that he was “deeply ashamed” of the “utterly unjust” wording of the Republican plank. In the pages of the Revisionist journal Zionews, Netanyahu commented that “It seems that to Dr. Wise and his friends, partisan politics are more important than truth and the interests of their people and their country.”

The Republican Party’s move had an important consequence: It compelled the Democrats to compete for Jewish support and treat the Jewish vote as if it were up for grabs. The Democratic National Convention in July 1944 for the first time endorsed “unrestricted Jewish immigration and colonization” of Palestine and the establishment of “a free and democratic Jewish commonwealth.”

These events helped ensure that support for Zionism, and later for Israel, would become a permanent part of American political culture. Every subsequent Republican and Democratic convention has adopted a plank supporting Israel. To do less became politically unthinkable.

The bipartisan support for Israel on Capitol Hill last week thus represented the continuation of a deeply rooted tradition in the politics of American foreign policy. The seeds sown by the father in 1944 were reaped by the son nearly seven decades later.

(Rafael Medoff, director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies in Washington, is the historical consultant to Israeli filmmaker Moshe Levinson's forthcoming documentary on Benzion Netanyahu.)

The original Haaretz article is fascinating but very strange too. Here are some extracts:

Mitt Romney is likely to become the Republican nominee for president - which would make him the first Mormon to do so - and will be actively seeking Jewish votes. Meanwhile, controversy has erupted over several Mormon temples conducting proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims.

The baptism ceremonies have understandably offended some Jews, and Mormon leaders have ordered its temples to stop doing them. The baptizers believe they are saving the Holocaust victims' souls - but a more important question to consider, especially on the eve of Yom Hashoah, April 19, is what Mormons did to help save Holocaust victims' lives.

The best known and most influential Mormons in the United States during the 1930s and 1940s were Senators William King and Elbert Thomas, both Democrats from Utah. Both men were fervent Christian Zionists.

Thomas had visited Jerusalem in 1912. According to his diary, he sat on the Mount of Olives and read from the writings of early Mormon leader Orson Hyde about the Jews: "Consecrate this land for the gathering together of Judah's scattered remnants, for the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the Gentiles so long. Restore the kingdom unto Israel, raise up Jerusalem as its capitol."

King, for his part, was one of the founding members of the American Palestine Committee, an organization set up in the 1930s to rally Christian support for Jewish statehood.....

Sen. Thomas developed close ties to Benzion Netanyahu, who in those days was director of the Revisionist Zionists' American division. In an interview (with one of the authors, Rafael Medoff ), Prof. Netanyahu recalled how in their first meeting, he began by giving the senator a long account of the origins of Zionism, the Jews' conflict with the British in Palestine, and the persecution of European Jewry. ....

Benzion Netanyahu's relationship with one of the most influential Mormons in America in those days is particularly interesting in view of this week's New York Times report about Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's previously unknown, longtime personal friendship with Mitt Romney, dating back to their work together at the Boston Consulting Group in the 1970s.

Sen. Thomas was particularly active in the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe, a lobbying group led by future Knesset Member Hillel Kook (using the pseudonym "Peter Bergson" ). The Bergson Group, as it was known, sponsored hundreds of newspaper ads criticizing the Allies.....


So you can see that what is happening now is the fruition of seeds planted long ago when the world was reeling from the horrors of the war. But the answer was not to evict 4 million innocent Palestinians and lock them up in camps, because that was what the world was responding to as thgis had been done to the Jews by Hitler. However he also did it to the Gypsies and as history shows they are not only still homeless and persecuted but inhibited from travelling. The Bible prophesied that the way of the travelling people would cease in the last days and it is true for almost all nomads sadly.

I like that phrase of reverend and shall use it. 'Just sayin'

reve x

02-09-2012, 12:59 PM
it is not a question of who will bomb Iran, or whether they will do this and end the world, but WHEN

reve x

PS Meanwhile the Emin is doing what to save our Lady? Contributing thousands of dollars again to one of the political parties that will destroy her perhaps. I hear no protests from them over any of this but then they are not political are they? And of course that village must be protected at all costs JS.

02-09-2012, 08:35 PM
This looks like good news but is a cosmetic gesture as the article shows - the reality is that the Government have built nice new permanenet homes for these people on the West Bank and never intend to return the land to its rightful owners. It is about the Temple.

MIGRON, West Bank – Under court order, Israel on Sunday evacuated one of the largest unauthorized settlement outposts in the West Bank, moving to dismantle what had become a symbol of efforts by Jewish settlers to seize land without government approval.

Migron, considered the flagship of about 100 wildcat outposts built by settlers on West Bank hills, was ordered removed by the Israeli Supreme Court because it was built without official permits on land privately owned by Palestinians.

After years of legal wrangling and repeated delays by the government, the hilltop community of about 50 religious families living in mobile homes was emptied with virtually no resistance from the settlers, other than a few holdouts who had to be carried off by police.

By day’s end nearly all of the 300 residents had left the site, near the Palestinian city of Ramallah, after being served with eviction orders. They traveled to temporary quarters at a neighboring settlement and are to move later this month into prefab homes built for them on a hillside about a mile away from their original location.

After several postponements of the evacuation, the government had tried to delay it for another three years under a compromise negotiated with the settlers, but it was compelled to act by a new court-imposed deadline.

“We are committed to the rule of law,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared after the outpost was emptied. “We are honoring the court’s rulings and we are also strengthening settlement. There is no contradiction between the two.”

Along with the alternative housing for the Migron settlers, Netanyahu has pledged to build hundreds of housing units in West Bank settlements to offset the court-ordered evacuation in June of five apartment houses built on private Palestinian land in the settlement of Beit El.

Israeli settlement expansion on land the Palestinians seek for a future state has been at the core of the current impasse in peace efforts. The Palestinians say they will not resume peace talks without a halt to the construction, a matter Israel says should be resolved in negotiations.

Peace Now, an Israeli group that opposes the settlements and petitioned the Supreme Court in 2006 for the removal of Migron, called the evacuation a “significant achievement for anyone who believes in the two-state solution and the democratic rules of the game.”

“We’ve proven that the settlers are not above the law, and that their system of putting facts on the ground can be fought,” said Hagit Ofran, who heads Peace Now’s settlement monitoring team. “This is a sign that settlements can be removed.”

But Danny Dayan, chairman of the Yesha Council, the settlers’ umbrella group, said that the removal of Migron would not change the larger reality of an established Israeli presence in the West Bank, where the Jewish settler population has grown to more than 300,000.

“If you look at the big picture, the process is irreversible,” Dayan said. “It can’t be stopped and the battle against it futile.”

Israel has 120 established settlements in the West Bank, communities it views as legitimate, though they are considered illegal by most foreign governments. The smaller settlement outposts were built without official approval, but many have roads and utilities provided by state agencies. .

At Migron, where the first mobile homes were brought in 2001 after the construction of an Israeli cellular phone antenna at the site, most homes were deserted by Sunday afternoon. A group of young protestors had to be hauled out of one house and two diehard families stayed put until the police arrived.

Tami and Uri Gutman sat in the living room of their home, where nothing was packed and the outside walls were daubed with slogans denouncing Netanyahu as “good for the Arabs.” A friend held their baby. Unwilling to walk out the door, the couple was carried out by police officers.

At the home of the Deitch family, Aviella and her husband Shalom walked out with their children, some carrying homemade signs that said: “The eternal people is not afraid of a long journey.”

Speaking by phone from the neighboring village of Burka, Abel Kader Matan, a Palestinian landowner, said he hoped to return some day to farm the land on which Migron stood. But he acknowledged that the prospect still seemed distant. “The hope is weak,” he said.

What about the other 100 'outposts'? What about the 300,000 illegal squatters that no government in the world can approve? Is this relevant to this thread? The 'eternal people' have been brainwashed by someone - who? I know most of you here do not want to get involved in this, let alone comment. Fine but keep your eyes open, not in the sand. This is what happened to the people of Crazy Horse when Americans found that there was gold in the ancient Sioux burial grounds. After thousands of prospectors invaded the sacred land that the US President had promised would remain with the Sioux, he found he had no alternative but to send Custer etc in to take it away from them. How would you like someone doing that to your house? Will you mind when the Chinese and Russians buy up your town and ask you all to leave? Where will you go? To 'reservations' my friends and no one will care about you either because you did not care about these people. Karma.

reve x

03-09-2012, 08:25 AM
well it is too soon to relax my guard but last night the dreams were even pleasant and I met twon angels, one of whom told me his name Kapiel. He was friendly and indeed helpful. Sadly one has to live in hope in the world now, not faith. I see the old Welsh way to my left dominating this page but cannot help that - only you lot can do anything about it.

reve x

03-09-2012, 08:44 AM
the cult started when i joined the Emin and Sun Moon was perhaps in direct competition with our Leo. He must beshining in another place now having reached a ripe old age here:

GAPYEONG, South Korea (AP) — The Rev. Sun Myung Moon, best known for conducting mass weddings involving thousands of couples, was a self-proclaimed messiah, but he was at least as good at attracting dollars as he was at drawing converts.

His Unification Church claims 3 million followers, though ex-members and critics put the number at no more than 100,000. There is no questioning the vastness of the business empire Moon created through his church: ventures in several countries from hospitals and newspapers to cars and sushi, and even professional sports teams and a ballet troupe.

Moon died Monday at a church-owned hospital near his home in Gapyeong County, northeast of Seoul, two weeks after being hospitalized with pneumonia, Unification Church spokesman Ahn Ho-yeul told The Associated Press. Moon's wife and children were at his side, Ahn said. He was 92.

Flags flew at half-staff Monday at a Unification Church in Seoul. Followers trickled into the building, some wiping away tears. One woman bowed and cried before a copy of the church-owned Segye Times newspaper, which was placed on a table and had a large picture of Moon on its front page. Another woman bowed before a small statue of Moon and his wife.

"I am devastated," Bo Hi Pak, chairman of the Unification Church-supported Korean Cultural Foundation, said Monday outside the hospital where Moon had been cared for. "I cannot control my emotions and focus on my work due to the sadness of losing a father."

Moon's body was transferred to the church's gargantuan white palace on Mount Cheonseong overlooking the lakes and wooded forests of Gapyeong County. His funeral will take place Sept. 15 after a 13-day mourning period, with a massive new sports and cultural center built recently on the church's sprawling campus accepting mourners starting Thursday, the church said in a statement. Moon is to be buried on Mount Cheonseong.

The mourning period is not only more than the usual three to five days in South Korea, but longer than the mourning periods for late South Korean President Kim Dae-jung and late North Korean leader Kim Jong Il. It was in keeping with Moon's grandiose life, in which he encouraged followers to call him and his wife "True Parents."

Moon, who was born in a rural part of what is now North Korea, founded his Bible-based religion in Seoul in 1954, a year after the end of the Korean War. He cultivated friends among political leaders in the U.S. and — though he was an ardent anti-communist — in North Korea, though he served time in prison in both countries.

He gained notoriety by marrying off thousands of followers in mass wedding ceremonies, usually not long after being arranged to marry by Moon himself. Moon often paired up strangers hailing from different countries as part of his vision of a multicultural, family-oriented religious world.

The church has faced considerable controversy over the years, and has been accused of using devious recruitment tactics and duping followers out of money. Parents of young followers in the United States and elsewhere expressed worries that their children were brainwashed into joining.

The church rebuffs the allegations, saying many new religious movements faced similar accusations in their early years. Moon's followers were often called "Moonies," a term many found pejorative.

The Unification Church claims 3 million followers, including 100,000 in the U.S., and says it has sent missionaries to 194 countries, according to Ahn.

Richard Panzer, president of the Unification Theological Seminary in Barrytown, N.Y., said Moon's legacy will live on.

"We believe that Reverend Moon was a historical figure in the history of religion," he said. "And that he made an enormous contribution to understanding of the suffering heart of God and a lot of contributions toward world peace."

The seminary, established by Moon in 1975, is an interfaith institution with Buddhist, Christian and Muslim professors, Panzer said.

The church also quietly amassed lucrative business ventures over the years, including the Washington Times newspaper; the New Yorker Hotel, a midtown Manhattan art deco landmark; and a seafood distribution firm that supplies sushi to Japanese restaurants across the U.S. It gave the University of Bridgeport $110 million over more than a decade to keep the Connecticut school operating.

Bloomberg News

reve x

03-09-2012, 01:36 PM
As I cannot tell if the angel was Capiel, Kapiel, Carpiel or Karpiel I have tried to check them all out. Although there is a Kapiel Raaj who is an author and on the fronges of the conspiracy world I have found the most likely one to be Carpiel and found his name in the ‘Sixth & Seventh Books of Moses’ -

I cannot copy this but it appears that he is an angel of the elements (elemental) and in the 4th heaven Machon the Angels of Divisions serves Carpiel, Beatiel and another 11 of them. As that would make 13 it would seem that they might be angels of weeks. They are said to have great power governing their plane this section of the book which also concerns Gabriel and others, is entitled

111 Semiphoras and Schemhamporas - King Solomon (printed and published 1686)

This is a kaballistic work by Luppius, called a ‘grimwoir’ and not to be confused with the Mormon ‘Book of Moses’ nor the 19th century book of the same name. It is supposed to have been related by Solomon and passed down through the generations. Unlikely but there is the name of this angel who when he told me his name made me think it started with a C but by the time I wrote it had decided on the more logical K.

I daresay more will appear on this name. there also appears to be a tie between Tiamat, thought by some to have been a huge planet of which earth is a remnant after hitting planet X, Nbiru. That is annunaki stuff.

Reve x

03-09-2012, 06:49 PM
It is to soon to read too much into it but common sense is beginning to take a hold. The head of the US military - Joint Chief of Staff General Dempsey has said that if Israel attacks Iran he does not want to be 'complicit'. The Israeli Press is enraged and see in 'complicit' the threat of war crime. He also says an attack will achieve nothing. Meanwhile it appears that Obama has been negotiating with Iran and has said the US will not support Israel when it does attack, if Iran does not attack US interests in the Gulf - presumably warships, bases, embassies and oil wells. This has called Israel's bluff somewhat as most Israelis do not want to go it alone. World War may be receding. But of course Obama may only be President a little while longer and Romney will attack as the promise to do so will get him elected. Indeed Mormons, Jews and Christian evangelists in the US may demand this. It is about costs really not about really sorting out the real problems.

But subtle movements change the mighty balances. And people talking and writing about this, trying to understand what is behind it before it happens is vital. With Iraq and even 9/11 it was all forensic, after the event. Too late.

This is further evidence to me that the angels are changing sides, and if they do they will find great rewards. Any news on the Emin village and if not why not?

reve x

03-09-2012, 10:48 PM
This is all I've been able to find so far, it's from the Lemegeton, the (and I quote) 'Art Theurgia Goetia of Kinge Salomon'

'The fift [fifth] spirit in order is called Barmiel; he is the first and cheefe spirit under Caspiel, The Emperour of the South [He ruleth] as king [of the South] under Caspiel, and hath 10 Dukes for the day: And 20 for the night to attend him to doe his will, the which is all very good, and willing to obey the Exorcist, whereof wee shall make mention but of 8 that belongs to the day, and as many for the night, with their seals for they are sufficient for practice, Note Every one of these Dukes hath 20 servants apiece to attend him when he is called, Excepting the 4ur last that belongs to the night, for they have none, They are as followeth with their Seales.

Barmiel his Seale. [figure 185.]

8 of his servient dukes belonging to the day.

Sochas, Tigara, Chansi, Keriel, Acteras, Barbil, Carpiel, Mansi.

[figures 186-193.]'

(Bolding mine)

I haven't been able to find figs 186 to 193, which presumably show the seals. The Theurgia Goetia is entirely concerned with 'spirits of the air' who are neither good nor evil. The spirits under Barmiel seem to be amenable and will obey an exorcist. That's all I've been able to find for now..

04-09-2012, 12:49 AM
No more hip-hop cults at the moment but instead decided to look up something else i'd heard a lot in music lyrics -the character Bagawire who is mentioned in many Reggae songs. I'd always thought was a slang word for betrayer or snitch - but on listening to one of my favourites Burning Spear it seems there is more to it.

Burning Spear from - 'Marcus Garvey'
Where is Bagawire, he's nowhere to be found
He can't be found
First betrayer who gave away Marcus Garvey
Son of St Ann

Mighty Diamonds - Them Never Love Poor Marcus
One bredren sell him for rice and peas
They didn't know there would be days like these
Now the human race in such a squeeze

Men like Bagawire should burn in fire the betrayer of
Marcus Garvey

An interesting story that has been confused by Jamaican urban myth is what it is. The mythical 'Bagawire' man:

oh yes, bag-o-wire. as featured in so many tunes but always with the same minimal info given for us reggae fans 30 40 years later from the other side of the world to make sense of it.

as i understand it although he didnt go down in the history books, he was a real person for sure. he used to roam the streets dressed in bags sown with wire. (i dont know the technical name but like a woven sack perhaps used for coffe beans or similar. i think santa might use such a bag) anyway hence the name bag-o-wire. he was an outcast and people (kids and that) used to tease him, calling him bagawire and throw stones at him. he would just point his finger at them and walk away saying nothing just pointing his finger. the story goes he was a garveyite previously (garveys driver?) but betrayed him by pointing him out to his enemies. garvey then but a curse on him. and from that day he was to roam the streets and pointing his finger was all he could do.

the rice and peas bit comes from when garvey formed the peoples political party his opponents responded by handing out free foods, rice and peas, to get the sufferes votes.

thats how i understand it anyway. sorry if not put in the best english. hope it makes sense and helps anyway. good to hear people out there listen to the lyrics and try to understand them. all the best.

Garvey's FBI files where made public under the freedom of information act, and reading up on them is where the origin of the myth can be found.

Marcus Garvey was betrayed in the U.S. not Jamaica. He was set up by the first undercover informant in the F.B.I.'s history under orders from Hoover to infiltrate the Garveyites and find reason to deport Marcus. The informant advised Garvey to buy unseaworthy ships to be used as "Black Starliners" that devalued his investor bonds. Eventually he was then charged and jailed for trumped up tax evasion charges. In my understanding "bag-o-wire" is a metaphor for the situation that the F.B.I. created to crush his the Garveyite movement.

Also this is where Garvey ties in with the Black Nation religions that came later in Harlem:

from 'Marcus Mosiah Garvey' biography
In 1916 Garvey went to the United States to raise funds to carry on the work of his
Jamaican organizations. He was immediately caught up in the agitation of the times, and
his voice thundered in the evenings on the streets of Harlem in New York City. A New
York branch of the UNIA was established, soon followed by branches in other cities in
the United States, in Central and South America, and in the Caribbean. The expansion of
the UNIA was fostered by its official organ Negro World, a newspaper published in
English, Spanish, and French. Published in New York City from 1918 to 1933, it was
succeeded by the monthly Black Man, which ran through the 1930s, published after 1934
in London.
The Negro World reached out to black communities all over the world. It even penetrated
into the interior of Africa, although the white rulers had banned it there. Garvey stressed
the need for blacks to return to Africa for the building of a great nation, but he realized
that until this was accomplished Africans needed to make themselves economically
independent wherever they were. He encouraged blacks to start their own businesses,
taking the commerce of their ghettos into their own hands.
Together with the American clergyman Archbishop George A. McGuire, Garvey formed
the African Orthodox Church. This was in accordance with one of his basic principles,
for he believed that each race must see God through its own racial spectacles. The Black
Christ and the Black Madonna were proclaimed at the UNIA convention of 1924.

04-09-2012, 10:12 AM
Thanks reverend for looking him up. I find it interesting he is an air spirit because of the dream. FG that bagawire is also interesting. If Garvey was trying to get urban ethnic people starting up their own businesses it would have put him at odds with those who exploited them - the mobs and retailers presumably protected by Hoover at the time.

Predictably the mainstream media has decided to support Romney against Obama. It is all so similar to the media that put Blair in power then Cameron. In a recent film not trying very hard to disguise its main characters Cherie and Tony we are first led to believe that Tony is an American agent from Uni, then it turns out to actually be Cherie. Whatever he managed to hive off public services, reduce the taxes on the rich and invade Iraq. Another film has him taken to the ICC for war crimes and now Desmond Tutu is demanding this.

In the US they are focussing on the two things important to the floating vote that will put Romney in the White House. The most important to them is the economy. He will cut tax for the millionaires by $250,000 and dismantle the free healthcare reforms for the very poor which are costing these people. Obama’s defence cuts they say will cost thousands of jobs, but make that millions in profits for his funders. They do not point out that the whole world is in a mighty recession due the the housing scam in the US. That European countries are bankrupt and have vast unpayable debts to China for all the TV sets and everything else in their houses. This is Romney will save you money and very crudely put.

But defence means attack and that is the other platform. The war will make big money for them too. So they are not discussing the coffins coming back. ‘Hezbollah’ according to Reuters have conveniently stated that Iran will attack American bases in the Middle East whether they support the Israeli attack or not, which neatly undoes all Obama’s peace making with Iran. And behind it all is the old chestnut used to successfully attack Iraq - nuclear and chemical bogeymen.

But really behind it is religious zeal that is brainwashing otherwise sensible people. The Media and the ‘free press’ is a myth of course. Free speech is also a bit of a myth. What can they do about it. Well the BBC was the ultimate for the world until the pressures were heaped upon it. It is possible unless it is owned. Imagine the Moonies owning the Washington Post, Murdoch owning Sky, Fox, Times and Mirror etc. and all the others who like to own the media. It is just like owning the Bible or Koran.

Anyway the final decisions on all of this will be made by angels not men. Which is why we have to engage with them and ignore the ridiculous propaganda thrown at us - which in fact is making a big problem for those doing it. Courts will have their day and we are seeing that now in Britain.

Tragic that the Emin is hiding at such a time.

reve x

anyway I have some nice music to listen to now

04-09-2012, 04:48 PM
We have just returned from a picnic and paddle in Loch Lomond, surely one of the most beautiful and pristine places on earth. I had a distinct sense of Gabriel, or Merlin, there for some reason. We know from St Mungo that Merlin came to Glasgow but now I find:

" Excalibur ( Loch Lomond ).

Could King Arthur have been a Scot and was Loch Lomond the Lake of legend from which the legendary King Arthur drew his magical sword Excalibur.

The 9th century monk Nennius who wrote the Historia Brittonum, claims four out of the first five of 12 battles fought by Arthur were in an area identified in the 19th century as Glen Douglas, which is close to Loch Lomond.

Other places in the area include Ben Arthur at Arrochar one of its crags is known as Arthur’s Seat, the loch near its summit Lochan a Chlaidheimh, translates to Wee Lake of the Sword.

Dumbarton castle is said to have links with King Arthur.

Throughout Scotland there are many references to King Arthur."http://www.explorelochlomond.co.uk/Excalibur_loch_lomond.htm

From the Loch you can see the Highlands and the smaller hills and the Trossachs, those beautiful wooded glens, are there. But there is gold and platinum in abundance in the hills and the Australians are determined to start strip mining them. Even Crazy Horse could not stop the gold miners and the National Park here is now under attack. Psychopaths could not care less about anyone standing in their way. World Wars and Oceans mean even less -that is to say they mean opportunities galore. We have had many pilot whales dying both here and in Florida after beaching over the last couple of days, not that this has anything to do with the sonar used by our submarines of course. Some of us care but others hate us for doing so. One should blame the silent majority who are more interested in their Facebooks. Most will not remember the draft and how terrified young American men were in the 60's. Coming soon to a place near you. It would be easier to stop this madness now but people leave everything to the last minute and then find it too late.

reve x

over 92,000 views today - well done all!

04-09-2012, 05:00 PM
We drove back through here, about 4 miles south of Loch Lomond and 8 miles from Maryhill where we live:

" Dumbarton Castle (Scottish Gaelic: Dùn Breatainn) has the longest recorded history of any stronghold in Great Britain. It overlooks the Scottish town of Dumbarton, and sits on a plug of volcanic basalt known as Dumbarton Rock which is 240 feet (73 m) high.

From the fifth century until the ninth, the castle was the centre of the independent British Kingdom of Strathclyde. Alt Clut or Alcluith (Scottish Gaelic: Alt Chluaidh, pronounced [aɫ̪d̪̊ˈxɫ̪uəj], literally "Clyde Rock"), the Brythonic name for Dumbarton Rock, became a metonym for kingdom. The king of the Britons of Dumbarton in about AD 570 was Riderch Hael, who features in Norse legends. During his reign Merlin was said to have stayed at Alt Clut. In 756, the first (and second) losses of Dumbarton Rock were recorded - wikipedia"


" And so to King Arthur... John Bruce, in his History of the Parish of West or Old Kilpatrick states "It was during these struggles that the great Cymric hero, Arthur the Faultless, King of the Poets, first saw the light. Gildas in the 6th Century, and Nennius in the 7th, relate the real Arthur's history; while Merlin, the poet of Tweedsdale, and Llywarch Hen and Taliesin, both poets of Lennox, sing his praises. It has been thought that one of the battles of Arthur was fought in the neighbourhood of Duntocher, certainly in the neighbouring parish of Strathblane, where 'Arthur's stone' bears witness to one of his victories."

The History of Dumbartonshire by Joseph Irving also mentions King Arthur. Mentioning that Al Cluith (Dumbarton) was the base of King Arthur, he goes on to explain Al Cluith "appears to have borne the name 'Castrum Arthuri'. In a Parliamentary record of the reign of David II, giving a curious detail of the king's rents and profits in Dumbartonshire, mention is made of the 'redditum assize Castri Arthuri' and, as a further evidence of the presence of Arthur in ancient Dumbarton, in the Welsh Triads, as quoted by Owen in his Dictionary, it is said 'Arthur ynbeneteyrnedd yn Mhenryn Rhionydd yn y gogledd' [Arthur, a supreme of princes at the promontory of Rhionyth, in the north.] Other Welsh writers describe the residence of Arthur in Strathclyde as Penryn-Ryoneth; and as the British Penryn supposes a promontory with some circumstance reduplicating its height, Chalmers thinks this intimation clearly points to Alcluid as one of the seats of Arthur's authority. The point of Cardross was the 'Rhyn-Ryoneth', and the Castle of Dumbarton the Pen-Rhyn-Ryoneth of the ancient British Triads." Confirming this, the Welsh Traiads say that St. Mungo (Kentigern) - based in Glasgow - was King Arthur's chief bishop at his base of Pen Rhionydd; obviously then, the capital Dumbarton.

The assertion of Castrum Arthuri is backed up by George MacGregor's The History of Glasgow. Of Strathclyde kings, he writes "The first mentioned ruler is Cawn or Caw, who is said to have been driven from his kingdom at the end of the fifth century by the Picts, and who took refuge in the kindred principality of Wales. At the commencement of the sixth century, Hoel, Coyle or Huail, became king; but his reign was no more fortunate than that of his predecessor. Tradition has it that the great King Arthur, whose exploits have been the subject of the works of many quasi-historians and minstrels, obliged Hoel to seek refuge in Anglesey, where he died in 508. Arthur, on the same authority, established himself firmly in Strathclyde, fixing upon Alclywd as one of his fortresses. This place, some say, was then called Castrum Arthuri; while Stirling Castle is affirmed to be his 'round table'. Here he reigned from 508 till his death in 542." Caw and Hueil are said to have been father and son, and seem to have been minor kings opposed to Arthur, the Ard Righ (High King). Arthur is said to have killed both Caw and his sons in battle. The sons died first, not in Wales, but at Cambuslang, a site associated with Nennius' sixth battle of his list of Arthur's twelve victories. When Caw was later defeated he was buried alongside his sons. Another of Caw's sons was reputedly Gildas whom pointedly does not mention Arthur or the High Kingship, an office he would detest. Instead, he denounces Constantine of Damnonia [Strathclyde] as killing royal youths.and their guardians on the site of a church, while wearing the habit of a holy abbot. Cambuslang held an early church supposedly visited by both St.Cadoc and Gildas.

Interestingly, I.M.M. MacPhail's Dumbarton Castle suggests that Dumbarton as Arthur's Castle is a misreading, but then goes on to list Arthurian traditions in the area. He makes reference to the possibility of Arthur having fought locally : "at least one of them was fought not far from Dumbarton, in Glen Douglas on Lochlomondside." and notes the Campbell clan's belief in their descent from King Arthur: "In a seventeenth century account, based on centuries old tradition, of the genealogy of the Campbells, the author traces their descent from 'King Arthur of the round table', whose son Smerevie Mor, was born in Dumbarton, 'on the south side thereof, in a place called the redd hall or in Irish Tour in Talla Dherig, that is, the tower of the redd hall'. The name, 'the Red Hall', occurs in other Gaelic folk tales as that of Arthur's residence." MacPhail also asserts that "'the Tower of the Red Hall' has a historical connection with Dumbarton Rock. One of the buildings of the medieval castle in Dumbarton Rock was the Red Tower, which was repaired in 1460." This leads him to the connection of King Arthur and the Galbraith clan. Details of this link can be found on my Galbraith page.

In another local history, that of neighbouring Yoker, written by the senior pupils of Yoker Secondary School in 1966, attests that King Arthur is associated with this area.. In Both sides of the burn: The story of Yoker they write: "It is known that the people of Strathclyde, now unprotected, were subjected to fierce attacks by Picts from the north and Angles from the south. After a terrific and protacted struggle in which the fortunes of war, the invaders were finally and decisively routed in the 6th century by King Arthur and his son Owen, Prince of Lennox, who on the death of his father became King of Strathclyde."


reve x

04-09-2012, 05:14 PM
is important to the Emin as he/she is the muse or inspiration for Leo:

" Finding Merlin

with Adam Ardrey

Organised by The Lennox Heriatge Society

It has long been suspected that Merlin myths derived from a real person. But Merlin and others in Adam Ardrey’s story are all familiar to us. The adultress queen commemorated by the fish and the ring on Glasgow's coat of arms for instance.Merlin was born in the year 540 in the Cadzow area of central Scotland and was to be more a scholar and politician than wizard. Decide for yourself. Either way, there is magic in this story"

Having lived in Glastonbury and in South West Wales where every other restaurant and bridge is named Merlin, I was surprised that the same was true up here. But I have to say that I feel much closer to finding the wizard here. Television also seems obsessed with Merlin at present.

reve x

04-09-2012, 09:27 PM
bit more although I doubt it is of interest

"According to the recent theory of D.F. Carroll, the real King Arthur was a Scottish leader named Artorius, a historically documented son of King Aidan. This Artorius was the prince of the Kingdom of Manaan in the late 500s and died in the Battle of Manau, which the Annals of Ulster say occurred in 582. Carroll equates this battle with Arthur's final battle of Camlann.

Artorius' Camelot, Carroll maintains, was a Roman fort on the Antoinine wall known as Ad Vallum. To the post-Roman Scots, this fortress was known as Camelon, a name which is preserved today in the small town outside of Falkirk. Carroll notes several medieval references to the Scottish fortress of Camelon, one of which comes from William Stukely, an 18th century antiquarian:

We may discern the track of the streets, foundations of buildings and subterranean vaults. The country
people call it Camelon or Camelot.
-William Stukely, Account of a Roman Temple and Other Antiquities near Graham's Dike in Scotland,
qtd in Carroll, 83.
Carroll believes that this fort would have been the most desirable position in the area, but his major contention is that this seems to be the only area in the United Kingdom called Camelot with an associated Arthur at the right time period. Ad Vallum is now a golf course, though, so we chose to visit a more interesting fort still on the Antoinine Wall and very near Camelon called Rough Castle. This fort seems to have been mainly soldiers' barracks in the Roman times, and gives a good sense of the type of defense and organization that such a fort would have had.

Or is Arthur Iranian?

" In striving to locate the precise sources of the obviously Iranian components of the Arthurian legends, Littleton and Malcor rightly focus their attention on the lore of the Sarmatians, in particular the Iazyges tribe, and their kinsmen, the Alans. From archeological, artistic, historical, and linguistic evidence, we know that these northern Iranian peoples had a European appearance and that they were often blond-haired and blue-eyed. Temperamentally and culturally as well, they seem to have resembled Europeans in many respects. This is not entirely unexpected for Indo-European peoples who hailed from the western reaches of the Eurasian steppes. Certainly, they were very different from the Iranian peoples who moved south (the Persians and the Medes) and mixed with the indigenous peoples there. They had even fewer affinities with the later steppe nomads who came from the east and who spoke entirely different languages (the Huns, the Turks, and the Mongols).
The last surviving remnants of these ancient northern Iranian peoples are the Ossetians. The Ossetians are now living in the Caucasus Mountains, whence they were pushed by Mongols and other nomads from the east. Though threatened politically, militarily, and culturally from many directions, they still maintain their surprisingly archaic Iranian language and with it a body of oral narrative referred to as the Nart sagas. The Nart sagas constitute the best repository of the ancient western Scythian narratives that were transported to Britain and Gaul from the Pontic-Uralian steppes by peoples such as the Sarmatians and the Alans during the declining days of the Roman Empire. The Nart sagas contain parallels with Arthurian legend so numerous and so uncannily close that it is impossible they are unrelated.
The authors begin their argument with the archeological underpinnings that reach back into the second millennium B.C.E. They then move on to records of classical writers such as Herodotus and Ammianus Marcellinus. Through such sources, they follow the movements of various groups of northern Iranians as they spread out from the North Caucasus and the Pontic-Uralian Steppes. Moving outward, these groups impinged on surrounding areas, including the Mediterranean littoral and Europe. In the course of their wanderings, they came into contact, and eventually conflict, with the Romans. A key battle is that in which the Sarmatians were defeated by the forces of Marcus Aurelius. This was the so-called Marcomannian War of 175 C.E., after which 5,500 Iazyges were forcibly sent to Britain as armored auxiliary cavalry, primarily to bolster the defenses along Hadrian's Wall. It was this large infusion of Sarmatians that brought the first layers of the Arthurian cycle to Britain. The overwhelming majority of these fine warriors never returned to their homeland, but remained in veterans' settlements such as the one at Bremetennacum Veteranorum, a major Roman cavalry post near the modern town of Ribchester in Lancashire.
The next major northern Iranian inputs to Arthurian tradition arrive with the Alans. There is no doubt that the Alans were Iranians. Indeed, their name is probably a phonological transformation of the name "Iran" itself, which is in turn a variation of "Aryan". (It is worth noting that the major dialect of the Ossetians, Iron, is yet another permutation of the same word which means essentially "noble".) The authors provide an extremely detailed study of the historical sources concerning the Alans in Europe. This diligent spadework should convince all but the most obdurate xenophobe that not all of European history and culture was locally self-generated. It should also serve as a desperately needed model for practitioners of cultural history in other parts of the world.
In the course of their various chapters the authors are able to provide, in whole or in part, a Scythian (i.e., northern Iranian) basis for most of the prominent elements of the cycle, including:
The figures of Arthur, Lancelot, Perceval, Galahad, Gawain, Kay, Tristan, Bedivere, Bors, Caradoc, King Ban de Benoich, the Maimed King, St. George, Elaine (Helaine), the Lady in the Lake, and others.
The centrality of swords.
The throwing of the hero's sword into a body of water which causes it to seethe.

The Sword in the Stone episode.
The magical cup/cauldron that never runs dry and appears at feasts before the bravest of the heroes. The authors' account of the history of the grail legend in east and west is a scholarly tour de force. In their minute investigations of this theme, they adroitly and felicitously examine a vast variety of source material.
The frequent dragon/serpent imagery and themes.
The connection between women and snakes (e.g., the Lady of the Lake who is euphemistically referred to as the White Serpent).
Women as warriors and their association with water. Greek and Chinese legends about Amazons were undoubtedly inspired by hearsay about female warriors among the Scyths and later nomads who fought alongside their men.
Littleton and Malcor have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the underlying core of the Arthurian cycle is northern Iranian. They do not, however, claim that the Arthurian cycle is solely and exclusively Scythian. Several vital figures are transparently Celtic, such as Arthur's father Uther Pendragon (in Welsh, the name means "Glorious Head of the Troops") and, as we shall see below, his queen Guinevere (Irish Finnabair ["Born on the White," cf. Aphrodite = "Born on the Foam"]; Welsh Gwenhwyfar ["White Phantom"]). Thus, the main overlay to the tradition is Celtic, and there are also Christian, Germanic, and other ingredients. Since this convincing conclusion is so at odds with common wisdom concerning the tradition, it will not be easy either for the academic community or for the populace at large to come to terms with it. Yet we must accommodate ourselves to this new understanding, for to ignore the evidence would be to distort history, and the distortion of history is always a dangerous proposition.
By no means was the influence of Iranian myth and legend limited to Britain. Far away in East Asia, I have discovered clear evidence that some of the same unmistakably Iranian motifs found in the legend of King Arthur also turn up in old Chinese stories. For example, in an eighth-century popular tale about a sixth-fifth-century B.C.E. hero named Wu Tzu-hs�, we find the following passage:
Then he threw the sword into the river. It shot forth a spirit-like glow, sparkling brightly as it thrice sank and thrice came to the surface with a great gush and then hovered above the water. The god of the river far off heard the sword's roar and tremulously, he roiled the waters in a great and frothing frenzy. The fish and turtles were thrown into a panic and burrowed into the mud. Dragons raced along the waves and leaped out of the water. The river god held up the sword in his hand and, frightened, told Wu Tzu-hs� to take it back (Mair 1983:141 and 286 n. 699).1
Readers of Malory's Morte d'Arthur will instantly recognize the similarity of this extraordinary description with the last mention of King Arthur's Excalibur in that memorable romance.
Once one is intrepid and industrious enough to follow up the threads that beckon, one begins to grasp the interrelatedness of all cultures. The logical conclusion to this approach is that we need to adopt a genuinely global view of history, otherwise our history will be false. If we continue to view the development of cultures as though they arose in utter independence and isolation, we not only falsify history, we deny the bonds that join all humanity.
When I first read through From Scythia to Camelot, I found it to be absolutely riveting. Seldom have I encountered a work that is so well balanced in its presentation of stimulating ideas and substantial data. Perhaps because they were fully aware of its controversial nature and the fact that it would be strongly resisted by those who take a more narrow approach to cultural history, they carefully weigh counterarguments to each step of their own argument. Furthermore, in another refreshing display of scholarly honesty, what is speculation they label as such. For example, even though they have excellent grounds for their assertion that the prototype of King Arthur may have been Lucius Artorius Castus, a Roman commander to whom the Iazyges were assigned in their task of guarding Hadrian's Wall in the late second century, they do not claim this as an established fact. (The paperback, however, puts forth Castus's case more forcefully than the hardcover version did.) They are more confident that the "real" Arthur was one Riothamus, a shadowy fifth-century "High King" of the Britons who engaged in military adventures in Gaul.
The authors rely on the best manuscripts and are thoroughly conversant with the relevant primary and secondary sources for the Arthurian cycle throughout the course of its development. The book is scrupulously documented without being pretentious and pedantic. Mercifully, Littleton and Malcor eschew all jargon from whatever discipline.
In a dazzling display of classical erudition and oriental learning, the authors patiently provide mountains of pertinent information. Above all, what makes this book convincing is the massive marshalling of data and the explicitness of the methodology adopted.
Among the hallmarks of their work is the keen attention Littleton and Malcor pay to the etymology of names. One of the most crucial and daring that they propose is *(A)lan(u)s--Lot for Lancelot. Although not entirely convincing at first glance, given the overall argument and the mass of data (geographical, historical, and literary) that supports it, this etymological explanation of the name actually turns out to be rather persuasive.
Littleton and Malcor provide three substantive appendices. The first is a note on sources. The second is a series of stunning genealogies, including The House of Charlemagne (a relative of Goeric [clearly an Alan name, Goar, with an Old Germanic ending for "king"] of Albi), The Historical and Legendary Houses of Cornwall and Brittany, The House of Constantine, The House of Orkney, and The House of Joseph of Arimathea, all of which show Alan blood. The third is a discussion of Lucius Artorius Castus's career in Britain compared to Nennius's list of Arthur's twelve battles.
The authors do not pretend that they have created this new interpretation entirely on their own. To be sure, they recognize that they are building on the earlier research of scholars such as Jo�l Grisward, Georges Dum�zil, Bernard S. Bachrach, Helmut Nickel, Jean Markale, Jehangir Cooverjee Coyajee, and J. P. Mallory. What Littleton and Malcor have uniquely done is bring together a huge amount of relevant information from a mind-boggling array of sources and forged it into an irrefutable argument concerning the fundamentally Iranian nature of the Arthurian cycle. This is an extremely impressive accomplishment, one that deserves our highest accolades. "

In which case is Merlin Iranian/Persian too? the Scots and Britons had many Middle Eastern connections:

"03. GWRYTH (GWRWST; GARWST), son, King of Britain c 350-325BC

is mis-identified by Geoffrey of Monmouth with the 5th century AD British king Gurgust "Barbtruc", who is identified with Gorst "Farfdrwch" in the "Gwyr-y-Gogledd Genealogy"; his bro, Galamh (Milidh), married the daughter of the Egyptian Pharaoh Nectanebo II (360-343BC), which indicates diplomatic intercourse between Britain and the Mediterranean nations during this time. Legend says that Gwryth (Gwrwst; Garwst) married [name], dau of Bethides, Greek Governor, then, Emperor, son of Percefus, Greek Governor of Britain, and begot...."

and here is 'Bel' again who is the ancestor:

01. BELI "MAWR" ["THE GREAT"] stands at the top of some medieval versions of the genealogy of the Old British Royal House. He is supposed to have reigned circa 400-375BC. The events recorded in the historical record of the capture of Rome by the Celts in circa 390BC harmonize perfectly with the story of the Iron Age British King Beli "Mawr" [= "The Great"] given by Geoffrey of Monmouth in his "Historia", for which one may conclude that Beli "Mawr" was an historical figure. He is apparently to be identified with the Celtic King Belinus (Belgios), who, with his brother Brennus (Brennos), captured Rome about 390BC. Legend says that Beli Mawr was the father of two sons,

(2a) Lludd I, and

(2b) Llefelys, ..."


All to find our Merlin who i am beginning to think is in fact ' the lady of the loch' a water spirit.

reve x

05-09-2012, 01:47 AM
It turns out that my hunch about the Berlin wall was correct.

Emin Confirmation Bias?

I left years before, but I vividly recall a longstanding Emin member telling me over the phone that it was amazing how Leo had influenced the collapse of the Berlin Wall.

Truly amazing!

So sorry Emin; it was Scientology's OTV111 that brought the Wall down.

On November 9, 1989, the Berlin Wall fell, marking the beginning of the end of the Cold War. Amazingly, Scientology took full credit for this event. This author was at the Scientology quarterly sales event where Scientology management audaciously announced that the Berlin Wall fell solely because the Scientology ship, Freewinds, whose maiden voyage was June 6, 1988, was delivering OT 8 (the highest level of Scientology spiritual technology) and that "real" OTs were finally coming off the production line.

The actual mechanics of this accomplishment were unclear. Did it mean that "real OTs" were capable of infusing the environment with so much "theta" (good) that communism just melted in its face, or did it mean that OTs were rolling up their sleeves and "handling the environment" and the wall just came tumbling down?

Time passed and the question arose: If, in fact, the Scientology spiritual technology known as "OT Levels" was capable of bringing about an event of this magnitude, why hadn't peace broken out all around the planet?
(Source: Operation Clambake)
Why indeed?

TM might take issue with the above!
He (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) also taught that practising Transcendental Meditation twice a day would create inner peace and that "mass meditation sessions" could create outer peace by reducing violence and war.[93] According to a TM website, the performance of yagyas by 7,000 pandits in India, plus hundreds of Yogic Flyers in Germany, brought "coherence and unity in the collective consciousness of Germany" and caused the fall of the Berlin Wall.[197]

Careful consideration of the evidence indicates that TM beats the Emin hands down for influencing world events.
1944: Maharishi helps organize a 10-day Global Yagya performance by 2000 Vedic Pandits with the intention to bring an end to World War II.

1957: Maharishi states that if one percent of the world’s population practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique, there would be no more war.

1963: During the Cuban Missile Crisis, Maharishi asks Meditators attending a course on Catalina Island, California, to extend their periods of meditation, helping avert the danger to America and the world.

1974: The “one-percent effect” or Maharishi Effect, predicted by Maharishi in 1957, is verified by significant crime reductions in cities where one percent of the population has learned the Transcendental Meditation technique.

1978: Maharishi’s World Peace Project sends 1400 Yogic Flyers to the five most troubled areas of the world to calm the violence through their group practice of the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi® programs.

1980: More than 3000 Yogic Flyers assemble in India for the International Vedic Science Course, creating a timely influence of coherence for India and it’s neighbors.

1988: 7000 students from the Vedic families of India are assembled at Maharishi Nagar near New Delhi to practice Yogic Flying and perform Vedic Yagyas for peace. During this time, the Berlin Wall falls and the Cold War ends. But when the group cannot be maintained financially, new tensions arise in the world.

1983: During a two-month period, 2000 Yogic Flyers gather in the Middle East, reducing war intensity and fatalities in the region.

1984: During the Taste of Utopia conference in Fairfield, Iowa, 7000 Yogic Flyers create the Global Maharishi Effect, producing a wide range of positive effects worldwide. These positive trends were reversed when the assembly ended.

1993: 4000 Yogic Flyers dramatically reduce violent crime in Washington, D.C., during a demonstration project monitored by an independent review board.

1999: Maharishi Universities of World Peace are founded for every time zone to maintain a wave of coherence circling the globe.

2000: Maharishi establishes the Global Country of World Peace to open the world of Unity Consciousness to people of every nation.

2001: Maharishi warns the U.S. government against taking the “path of failure” by responding to terrorism with violence, and offers permanent world peace to every nation through 40,000 Yogic Flying Vedic Pandits in India

2006: TM movement begins $15 million dollar construction project of 12 marble peace palaces in Smith Center, Kansas. This is to be their World Capital of Peace.

2006: There are Katyusha rockets falling in villages and towns all around them, but for the squadron of 30 Israeli Yogic Flyers assembled at a hotel in Israel all is quiet. That's because they have managed to create a shield of invincibility around their gathering place. Now they are calling for another 235 Flyers to come and join them to create a shield that would, they say, cover all of Israel.

I find that difficult to argue against.

In conclusion I though it apt to include Ron's briefing to OTV111 students.

By the time you read this I will no longer be occupying the body and identity that you have known as Ron. That identity continues to live in the hearts and minds of many as well as in on-Source tech and admin centers around the planet, and will inspire for years to come Scientologists and lovers of truth every-where.

What follows is a story that has been withheld, for reasons which will soon be obvious, until such time as there were enough OTs that something could be done about it. That time Is now. It is not a nice or a pretty story. but I trust that having arrived on the OT VIII Course you are ready to hear it. You have undoubtedly heard pieces of data over the years that hinted at the greater untold reality of my mission here on Earth. but the story was never written, nor spoken. in its entirety due to security problems that have unfortunately always plagued the organization. It is only now that I feel it safe to release the information, although the time is rapidly approaching when I will have no choice in the matter, the hour draws that near.

I an not going to delve too deeply into specifics as people have a tendency to bog themselves down in significance. which would only serve to delay the immediacy of the task at hand. Therefore I will be brief.

Some eighty-odd million years ago Earth time (it actually dates at 78,395,042 but dates are a bit superfluous with this material) plans were drawn by a group outside the MEST universe for the eventual takeover of a good portion of this universe. Not a particularly large nor Imaginative crew, their exterior perspective. however. gives them considerable advantage over tho time-bound beings of the MEST universe. Borrowing from earlier operations such as Helotrobus. they conceived an ongoing implant. some portions of which have been fairly faithfully rendered in parts of the Bible. This implant, laid in by carefully controlled genetic mutation at Incident Two of OT Ill and periodically reinforced by controlled historic events since then, makes it effectively impossible for beings on the more heavily affected planets such as Earth to become free. It causes progressive genetic "evolution" that gives the subject population greater and greater susceptibility to the telepathic impingement and direction of the controllers. In its final stage the progression becomes almost geometric, and it is this final stage that we are rapidly approaching.

Another aspect of this GE-line implant is that the body becomes in effect a sort of thats trap that kicks in heavily on the being should he attempt to expand his horizons beyond that of pure physical universe reality. There can be temporary key-outs which we have all experienced in varying degrees. but until this area is handled it can honestly be said that there is no hope for continued expansion. The good news is that once this is run out. expansion becomes rather effortless and almost automatic.

No doubt you are familiar with the Revelations section of the Bible where various events are predicted. Also mentioned Is a brief period of time in which an arch-enemy of Christ. reforred to as the anti-Christ, will reign and his opinions will have sway. All this makes for very fantastic, entertaining reading but there is truth in it. This anti-Christ represents the forces of Lucifer (literally, the "light bearers" or "light bringer"), Lucifer being a mythical representation of the forces of enlightenment, the Galactic Confederacy. My mission could be said to fulfill the Biblical promise represented by this brief anti-Christ period. During this period there is a fleeting opportunity for the whole scenario to be effectively derailed. which would make it impossible for the mass Marcabian landing (Second Coming) to take place. The Second Coming is designed, among other things, to trigger a rapid series of destructive events.

With the exception of the original Buddhism, virtually all religions of any consequence on this planet, mono- and pantheistic alike. have been instruments to speed the progress of this "evolution of consciousness" and bring about the eventual enslavement of mankind. As you know, Siddhartha Gautama never claimed to be anything more than a man. Having caught on to this operation, he postulated his own return as Metteyya, part of which prophecy will have been fulfilled upon the passing of L. Ron Hubbard.

For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on, let me take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men. he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that belied the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It Is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal. So deep and insidious is the biologic implanting.

It Is a good joke that the Calactic Confederacy is associated with the Serpent in the Garden, the beast and other emissaries of the "Prince of Darkness". Yet in certain passages and esoteric interpretations of the Bible (much of which has been taken out and effectively suppressed for centuries) as well as the Cabbalah, the truth reveals itself quite nicely for the clever and the ungullible.

So it really is a race against time and one that we happen to be losing at the moment, as the implant drama inexorably plays itself out in spite of the breakneck pace I've managed to keep up these last thirty-five years.

I had an inkling, but only that, of the insidiousness of this material as far back as 1945. Later, in charcteristic over-optimism, I thought that R6 would be the end of it. But that was followed by NOTs and the Purification Rundown and still the string continued to unwind with the ball at the end of it just out of sight. It makes ons wonder about such things as fate and destiny, such was the resolve with which I managed to cling to that string. not often knowing how close I was to falling into the abyss myself. but destiny is merely the rationalization of feeble minds. Things don't just happen, they are caused. And causative beings can undo the plans of madmen and would-be enslavers, no matter how long those plans may have been in the making.

I will soon leave this world only to return and complete my mission with another Identity. Although I long to stretch my arms back in repose on some distant star in some distant galaxy. It appears that is one dream that will have to wait. But my return depends on people like you doing these materials thoroughly and completely so that there will be a genetically uncontaminated body for me to pick up and resume where I left off. A body free of religious mania, right/wrong dichotomy and synthetic karma. The job ahead is far too tough to even contemplate doing with your standard -- courtesy of certain other-dimensional players and their Marcab pieces, many of whom are right here In the general populace -- genetically altered body.

Without the biogenetic meddling of those who stand outside time (who cannot yet directly influence our world and must work through others) the dwindling spiral is not nearly as automatic and self-perpetuating as it appears. There are regions even in isolated parts of the Milky Way where poets are free to poet and magicians can paint reality with their magic wands and exteriorize without body kickback. But these areas unfortunately are fewer and fewer.

I will return not as a religious leader but a political one. That happens to be the requisite beingness for the task at hand. I will not be known to most of you, my activities misunderstood by many, yet along with your constant effort in the theta band I will effectively postpone and then halt a series of events designed to make happy slaves of us all.

So there you have it. The secret that I have kept close to my chest all these years. Now you too are part of this secret and I no longer have to shoulder the burden alone or live with the possibility of body death before all the data could be released. And with this briefing I entrust to each of you the responsibility for this material until such time as I an able to return. For we have no help from any other quarter in this matter. The handful of secret societies throughout history that have caught on to this game have long since fallen by the wayside or been taken over and become instruments of the very menace they were set up to combat.

The rundown is long and can be arduous, but it must be done thoroughly if there is to be any effect not only on the body of the pre-OT but the body of his or her progeny as wall. There is some danger, but with OT VII thoroughly complete It is not nearly so great as the danger witnessed by assorted unfortunates who happened to stumble into this area in their sleep or in moments of reverie or anaten, experiencing an hitherto mysterious phenomenon known as "spontaneous combustion".


But the area is well charted. The rundown many years in secret development, and by the time you read this undoubtedly completed on myself. The wins awaiting you are like none that you have ever experienced, not just for you, but for your children. Your children's children and the whole of mankind, if we succeed. And we will. If we had time we should pity the many poor souls, from 1950 to PT, who chose such an exactly inopportune moment to drop off the road to truth and disconnect from reality, the full burst and glory of OT practically within their grasp. But we haven't the time to "wax philosoThe rundown follows. Again I say, do it thoroughly and completely, for it is your ticket to the stars. And beyond!phic" or ponder might have beens.


Emin people tend to laugh at the world history of other society's. Perhaps some member would be kind enough to provide our neutral readers with a synopsis of Emin World History from 'pre-sand' Egypt to the current day, along with a timeline of world events since the early seventies indicating how Leo or the Emin/Template have influenced them.

05-09-2012, 09:13 AM
(Very interesting post wh - will come to it later)

Today's Haaretz reveals how much is spent brainwashing youths. I doubt if anything like as much is spent teaching them the truth - guess who they and their friends will nbe voting for?)

As Taglit-Birthright Israel reaches bar mitzvah age, its CEO Gidi Mark sits down with Haaretz to discuss the free trips he sees as Israel's insurance policy, rumors about what happens on them, and Sheldon Adelson.
By Judy Maltz | Sep.05, 2012 | 9:10 AM

Why should a country like Israel, which is struggling to balance its budget, be handing out freebie trips, worth hundreds of millions of dollars to taxpayers, to those who reside elsewhere?
For Taglit-Birthright Israel CEO Gidi Mark, the answer is simple: Forget about state-of-the-art anti-missile defense systems, he says. It is these trips that bring tens of thousands of largely unaffiliated Jews from around the world to Israel every year that will ultimately guarantee the long-term existence of the Jewish people. And when you look at it that way, in his view at least, hundreds of millions of dollars is petty cash.
"It's like buying insurance," Mark said in a recent interview with Haaretz. "Every wise person spends a tiny amount of money each year to insure his or her future. If you look at it in these terms, what the government of Israel invests in Taglit -- and I don't want to use the word gives, but rather invests -- is less than 1 percent of 1 percent of 1 percent. If you compare that to the amount of money that's put into a battalion or a squadron, I don't think anyone will argue with the value of this investment. Nothing else gives the State of Israel that big an ROI."

Taglit was launched in late 1999 as a partnership among Jewish philanthropists and Jewish federations abroad and the Israeli government amid concerns that young Diaspora Jews were growing alienated from Israel. Since then, it has spent about $700 million to fulfill its mission; a quarter of that funding comes from the Israeli government, which recently pledged another $100 million to finance its operations over the next three years. More than half of Taglit's funding comes from wealthy Jewish philanthropists. Charles Bronfman was among the original big donors but by now has been outdone by Sheldon Adelson, the casino billionaire and ardent supporter of both the Republican Party and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
As Taglit enters its bar mitzvah year, few will contest the pivotal role it has played in connecting young Diaspora Jews to Israel since the start of the millennium. In fact, no Jewish organization in either Israel or abroad has come even close, whether in terms of sheer numbers or brand recognition. Taglit, or Birthright as it is better known abroad, has become a household name among Jewish students on college campuses across America, and those who haven't yet visited Israel on one of its all-expense-paid 10-day trips will tell you, more often than not, that they most definitely have plans to take advantage of the opportunity.

To date, more than 330,000 young Jews from 60 different countries have visited Israel on Taglit trips; more than 50,000 alone visited this year. Another 60,000 young Israelis have accompanied them on their buses as part of the so-called "mifgashim" (meetings) designed to forge personal ties between Israelis and Diaspora Jews, bringing the total number of participants to almost 400,000.
Mark, who takes pride in being the program's first employee (he started out as chief operations officer), attributes much its success to what he calls its "customer-oriented" approach.

"We plan trips around when it's convenient for our customers, not when it's convenient for us," he says. "So we bring lots of them here during college breaks and vacations. We try to bring together people who have something in common, so that it's easier for them to connect. So this week we have a group of fashion designers here. In the past, we've brought groups made up exclusively of advertisers, chefs and bloggers. We've had groups from the LBGT community, groups of handicapped individuals, groups from specific towns and cities, you name it."
To accommodate its "customer base," Mark reveals that Taglit is now mulling two key changes pertaining to eligibility and program format. Until now, only Jews aged 18 to 26 who had never participated in an organized trip to Israel before were eligible, and all trips lasted 10 days. According to Mark, Taglit is considering increasing the age limit for members of certain professions it has deemed high priority, among them doctors and teachers. It has also begun piloting special programs in the summer that last beyond the traditional 10 days and offer an opportunity to delve deeper into a particular topic of interest, whether that be Israel's high-tech industry or people of the Galilee. These special programs will not be free but partly subsidized

So you're saying that the fact that we're talking about a free trip has nothing to do with the desire of so many young Jews to come to Israel?

"For sure it does, but let's not forget that before Taglit was around, there were millions of dollars in subsidies sitting on the tables of Jewish federations specifically for the purpose of bringing young Jews to Israel, but there were no takers for this money. Why do we give the trip for free? Because the people we are targeting are those who wouldn't even pay one cent of their own money to make a trip to Israel. Our competitor is Barbados, and our competitor is Hawaii. They can travel to those destinations for $200-$300."

Some have charged Taglit with killing all the high school programs in Israel that used to cater to American kids. Once they attend these programs, they're no longer eligible for a free trip through Taglit.

"That is a big lie being perpetrated by people who are supposed to know the facts. The reason the high school numbers went down was because of the intifada and because those programs became increasingly more expensive in recent years."
Although Taglit takes pride in being non-partisan and pluralistic, some of its detractors have also argued that it presents a whitewashed view of life in Israel and a one-sided picture of the Middle East conflict, and borders on brainwashing.
"We don't pretend to be objective," responds Mark, who previously held positions abroad in the Israeli Foreign Service. "We are not a newspaper. We are a Jewish organization that brings young Jews to their roots and to their people. We're not here to connect them to the Palestinians, to the Afghans or to the French people. I know there are some who would like us to give five days to the Jews and five days to the Arabs. So our response is that we welcome the Arabs to set up their own organizations for that."
Can Taglit really call itself apolitical today when one of its chief funders is Sheldon Adelson, who clearly has a political agenda?

"We are very lucky to have supporters from the left, the right and the center. Among the Jews who support us, sometimes the only thing that connects them is their support of Taglit and their concern for the future of the Jewish people, which is great. If you're talking about Sheldon Adelson, he does not want to be involved in any organizational body of Taglit."

Or in influencing its educational program?

"Look, he started giving us money five-six years ago. If you look at the issues we've dealt with in the past 10 years, I guarantee you that you won't find even one tiny change to the right or to the left in terms of our political inclinations. I think everyone understands that for Taglit to succeed, we can't touch politics."

And if Adelson were to request a change?

"We are apolitical."
In recent years, Taglit has been accused of encouraging -- or at least turning a blind eye to -- casual sexual encounters between program participants and their Israeli counterparts, as part of its larger pre-emptive campaign against intermarriage.
"Completely not true," says Mark. "Look, you've got a group of people who spend 10 days together, 24/10, so relationships develop. It happens everywhere in the world. We don't encourage it though. All we encourage them to do is be active members of their groups." Haaretz

How worrying is that. Do they tour the Emin village?

Right the Emin influence. Well no one will like my view on this as I would start with the vast earthquake in China that killed a million people in the 70's which Leo forecast/predicted to the day and said at the time of his prediction that this was part of the work he was doing. I do not remember what he said after the event but some here will.

I was not in the Emin by 9/11 and the millenium prophecies. I only know the pilots were trained in Florida and thought they were doing great work too. Leo died shortly after the attack so what did he say about it?

reve x

05-09-2012, 10:43 AM
from its bonny bank takes the place of that Old Welsh way today

reve x

05-09-2012, 09:09 PM
My father-in-law took me today to the fabulous Mausoleum of the 10th Duke of Hamilton in Hamilton, built at vast expense in the 1840's. I was immediately aware of the Masonic innfluence and indeed the Duke was a Master Mason. So I started looking for the serpents as my belief is that the serpent is at the heart of Freemasonry, but the secret heart. I was not disappointed. The first is outside, or was. There are 3 heads - Life, Death & Immortality. Life and Death have sadly corroded while mysteriously Immortality is almost as the mason sculpted it. Almost as in the 1950's the uraeus or Egyptian cobra above its brow was chiselled off by someone and taken, but one can still see the few serpent remains.

Next the vast bronze doors, which have been replaced and now lie in state within. These had biblical scenes carved in relief - David & Goliath, priests carrying the Ark, people carrying vast boulders to build the Temple of Solomon, the Heavenly Temple at the top and almost hidden - hard to spot - took me 10 minutes to find them - two serpents heading into the roses on the right hand door about half way up.

The floor is said to be the most magnificent Masonic floor in the world composed of marble, jasper, agate etc. It is based, as is the whole mausoleum, on the Number 8. Around the outside is what is supposed to be a staircase to heaven but looked at carefully one can see that there are actually 4 serpents each biting the tail of the other.

The mausoleum has phenomenol acoustics and the longest echo of any building in the world. It deafened me, although this is not hard to do to me. It took many years to construct. The duke had bought an Egyptian sarcophagus (made from a solid block of basalt for a lady named Itheros around 400BC). It was too small for him but they rearranged him to fit. The sarcophagus and the 17 members of his family who once rested in the Mausoleum now are buried in Hamilton's Bent cemetry. But an old photo remains of the sarcophagus and shows the serpent all along its side. That makes 8 serpents in my book. You can find images on google. The building although in some disrepair is still used for very special masonic rituals. It is round and has a Dome, another aspect of the secret Temple as seen in the Templar's churches and on Temple Mount to this day. At the top is the only window, a skylight called the occulus, or eye.

Has anyone else here seen this? It was filled with 'angels' on our visit and indeed around the dome are 8 seraphs, each with 2 heads. No wonder they like to use it still. Below is a crypt with 32 spaces for coffins. Outside of course are two vast sandstone lions, one sleeping and one awake.

When he had it commissioned he ordered that his coalmines should not be allowed within 150 yards of it. But as he left vast gambling debts they dug 5 seams below the building and extracted coal worth 3/4 million pounds that paid off the debts. The building then subsided 18 feet, but as it sat on a huge monolithic base it has righted itself and not cracked apart. The workmanship was so fine that the sandstone blocks, mostly vast, needed no mortar and the whole building only required a tiny amount of cement (1 ton) which has also contributed to its survival and the flooding by the River Clyde. One can see how fine it is - not a sheet of paper width between each block.

This is not really a mausoleum at all but an occult working temple.

reve x

05-09-2012, 11:49 PM

Finally found the pic

06-09-2012, 08:44 AM
I am just pasting this stuff to show the link, not because these articles are really saying much and on is very prejudiced. The snake is associated with Gabriel who is associated with 3 major religions, or at least founded them and of course also with that Merlin. All that I noticed yesterday is that the 8 snakes (The Ogdoad Creative Gods of Thoth) were there but hidden. I know the snakes get a bad press but the look at what gets a good press and how the media is run. By the way if I fdo not highlight stuff in blue with quotes it is because I have collated it on a word document and have not devised a way to do that so I use “” :


Dear Brethren,

For more than two years, a number of lodges in California have experienced significant disharmony due to the negative influence of certain lodge members who are also members of an organization commonly referred to as "the Snakes."

Recently, we made a request that each of the 2008 lodge officers affirm in writing (form provided) the fact that he is not a member of this organization or its successors. Our request resulted in several questions being asked and it is our intention to address these issues herein.

Formally named the Grand and Glorious Order Knights of the Creeping Serpent, the Snakes is believed to have been organized by a group of Masons who wanted to continue certain types of hazing in an initiation ceremony which had been prohibited by the Shrine. Originally, the socalled Snakes were Masons who had all received this secret degree. Over time this informal, degree-centered association of Masons transformed into something more organized and dangerous to Freemasonry. Masons participating in any form of hazing ritual place our fraternity in great jeopardy and subject it to litigation due to intentional assault and battery. This was an important
reason for the Shrine to prohibit hazing. Adding to the gravity of the situation, the motives of the now more developed Snake organization threatens the stability of our lodges.

When this problem was called to the attention of the Grand Lodge in the summer of 2005, Grand Master David R. Doan ordered a thorough investigation of this organization. While we were able to gain some information about the organization in Arizona and the Philippines, no one would come forward to speak on behalf of the organization which was reported to have at least two units operating in California. Yet some of our members came forward and spoke out about what this organization was secretly plotting. We received a copy of a message reportedly from a leader of the Snakes directing its members to infiltrate the officer corps of our lodges so that they could gain influence over the lodge's decisions and control of lodge funds. Some lodges have officers who have advised in open lodge that unless a brother is a Snake he will not be eligible to be an officer in that lodge.

Many attempts have been made to communicate with the Snakes organization with no response. We asked the leadership of the Snakes organization to furnish our Grand Lodge with records of their members, facts about their initiation ceremony, and other information that would allow us to gain a better understanding of the organization. Our requests were ignored. Grand Master Doan was left with no choice but to declare the Snakes a clandestine organization and he directed all Masons in California to cease their membership in the order if they were members. This was done according to the Grand Master's responsibility in the California Masonic Code concerning other Masonic organizations which include any organization wherein membership in Masonry is a perquisite for membership. (This applies to Snakes, but could not ever be applied to an organization like the Elks, Odd Fellows, etc. that do not have the Masonic prerequisite.)……



Subtitle: As we study Masonic symbols, we see that serpent worship is rampant within Masonry. This serpent worship absolutely proves Freemasonry is Satan worship . But, Masons also consider the S erpent to be the Savior of the World!
Most of the article on Freemasonry below has been taken from Masonic books that have been published by Masonic Publishing Companies, and most of them were formerly very, very secret. We further have taken the Biblical admonition carefully, comparing Masonic teachings to the Holy Bible. In 1 John 4:1, we see this command to all Christians: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (test) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Thus we see that any religious teaching that does not conform to Scripture is from a "false prophet".
This exercise is not an empty one, for your eternal, precious soul is at stake. Finally, remember two things about Masonry: 1) Superior Masons deliberately lie to their fellow Masons, as those Masons "deserve to be mislead"; 2) Explanations given to 95% of all Masons are wrong. Listen to this quote from a Masonic author, Carl Claudy: "Cut through the outer shell and find a meaning; cut through that meaning and find another; under it, if you dig deep enough, you may find a third, a fourth -- who shall say how many teachings?" You have been lied to, as we demonstrate in our many articles. Finally, remember Albert Pike's bold assertion in Morals & Dogma, that "Masonry is identical to the ancient Mysteries ", which means that all their teachings in all their books are precisely the same as the Ancient, Pagan, Satanic Mysteries!
Please, we implore you, take the time to read our articles so you may finally know the Truth of Jesus Christ, the God of the Universe which Masons contemptuously call an "inferior god", and Whom they never, ever mention in their teachings or their rituals. We fervently pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine your mind, heart, and soul with the knowledge of the true God, and only the true God, of the Holy Bible.
Imagine our shock and disbelief when we stumbled on to the fact that Freemasonry adores and worships the Serpent just as completely as do most pagan groups of the past 5,000 years. We shall be quoting Freemasonry sources, directly from the source itself, and we shall be showing symbols that go along with the text. Since a "picture is worth 1,000 words", this article will be another "smoking gun" evidence proving that Freemasonry is Luciferian as we have been charging.
Albert Pike, in his monumental book, Morals & Dogma , speaks greatly about the importance of the worship of the serpent in the various pagan mysteries' religions of antiquity. As you read his description of the importance of the serpent worship, please bear in mind that Pike has dogmatically stated, "Masonry is identical to the ancient Mysteries ", which means that all their teachings in all their books are precisely the same as the Ancient, Pagan, Satanic Mysteries! Now, let us hear from Albert Pike, 33 Degree Mason, of the Southern Jurisdiction.
"The serpent entwined around the egg, was a symbol common to the Indians, the Egyptians, and the Druids. It referred to the creation of the Universe." [p. 496; teaching of the 25 Degree, Knight of the Brazen Serpent ]
In several past articles, we have noted that Freemasonry does NOT believe that the Universe was created by God of the Holy Bible, as recorded in Genesis. This statement really supports that concept, as it dogmatically states that the serpent entwined around the egg is a symbol of the creation of the universe !
Further, I find it highly damning that Freemasonry idolizes the Druids. Not only does Pike mention the Druids in this sentence, above, but other Masonic authors are far more bold and forthright in their admission that Freemasonry venerates them because their Mysteries' Religion is identical to the Druids. Listen:
"... our mode of teaching the principles of our profession [Masonry] is derived from the Druids ... and our chief emblems originally came from Egypt ..." [William Hutchinson, Mason, The Spirit of Masonry, revised by George Oliver, New York, Bell Publishing, originally published in 1775, p. 195]
Albert Churchward, another Masonic writer, states that Masons are "our present Druids". [Albert Churchward, Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man: the Evolution of Religious Doctrine from the Eschatology of the Ancient Egyptians, London, England, George Allen and Company, Ltd. 1913, Second Edition, p. 189.
Another Masonic author, George Oliver, also noted Freemasonry's connection with the Druids. "The Druids had a high veneration for the Serpent. Their great god, Hu, was typified by that reptile; and he is represented by the Bards as 'the wonderful chief Dragon, the sovereign of heaven'." [George Oliver, Signs and Symbols, New York, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, 1906, p. 36; Emphasis and capitalization in the original] At least, this Satanic view of the serpent and the dragon being identical beings is consistent with the Bible, as the Scripture says they both are symbols of Satan [Revelation 12:9]




Hope you are smiling

reve x

06-09-2012, 10:45 AM
From a German magazine called Spiegel in 2008. A man called Angel Heredia talks about his career as a doping 'coach' for top Olympic athletes.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean.

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners ...

Heredia: ... eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.” In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body. Marion Jones, for example ...

SPIEGEL: ... five-time Olympic medallist at Sydney 2000 ...

Heredia: ... trained with an unparalleled intensity. Drugs protect you from injury. And she triumphed and picked up all the medals.

SPIEGEL: Are you proud?

Heredia: Of course, I still am. It is still a tremendous achievement, and you must not believe that Marion’s rivals were poor, deceived competitors.

SPIEGEL: This isn’t just an American problem?

Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.” What do you think such athletes then do?

SPIEGEL: Tell us what you did for your clients.

Heredia: Athletes hear rumors and they become worried. That the competition has other tricks, that they might get caught when they travel. There is no room for mistakes. One mistake can ruin a career.

SPIEGEL: So you became a therapist for the athletes in matters of drugs?

Heredia: More like a coach. Together we found out what was good for which body and what the decomposition times were. I designed schedules for ****tails and regimens that depended on the money the athletes offered me. Street drugs for little money, designer drugs for tens of thousands. Usually I sent the drugs by mail, but sometimes the athletes came to me.

SPIEGEL: With Marion Jones ...

Heredia: ... it was about the recovery phases. In 2000 she competed in one event after another, and she needed to relax. I gave her epo, growth hormone, adrenaline injections, insulin. Insulin helps after training, together with protein drinks: insulin transports protein and minerals more quickly through the cell membrane.

SPIEGEL: Jones was afraid of needles.

Heredia: Yes, that’s why C. J. Hunter, her husband at the time, and her trainer Trevor Graham mixed her three substances in one injection. I advised them against it because I thought it was risky.

SPIEGEL: What kind of relationship did you have with your athletes?

Heredia: Business ties. It was all about levels and dosing. I rarely spoke with Marion. It was done through her coaches.

Part II: How Heredia outwitted the drug testers and became the dealer to the world’s best athletes.

SPIEGEL: Was there a doping cycle?

Heredia: Yes. When the season ended in October, we waited for a couple of weeks for the body to cleanse itself. Then in November, we loaded growth hormone and epo, and twice a week we examined the body to make sure that no lumps were forming in the blood. Then we gave testosterone shots. This first program lasted eight to ten weeks, then we took a break.

SPIEGEL: And then the goals for the season were established?

Heredia: Yes, that depended on the athlete. Some wanted to run a good time in April to win contracts for the tournaments. Others focused on nothing but the trials, the U.S. qualification for international championships. Others cared only about the Olympics. Then we set the countdown for the goal in question, and the next cycle began. I had to know my athletes well and have an overview of what federation tested with which methods.

SPIEGEL: Where does one get this information?

Heredia: Vigilance. Informers.

SPIEGEL: You were once a good discus thrower yourself.

Heredia: Very good in Mexico, but very average by international standards. I had played soccer, boxed and done karate before I ended up in track and field. At 13 or 14 I believed in clean sports. Doping was a crime to me; back then I even asked my father if I could take aspirin.

SPIEGEL: Why did you begin doping?

Heredia: Like all athletes: because others were doing it. All of a sudden, kids that I used to beat were throwing ten meters further. Then I had an injury but I wanted to qualify for the Olympic team anyway. Doping became to me what it is for most athletes: part of the sport. If you train for 12 hours today and your trainer expects you to train for 12 hours again tomorrow, you dope. Otherwise you can’t do it.

SPIEGEL: What did you take?

Heredia: Growth hormone. Testosterone.

SPIEGEL: But you failed to qualify for the Olympics anyway.

Heredia: Yes, but I read anything I could find about medicine, spoke with other athletes, and soon people were saying: Angel knows how it’s done. He knows how to pass the tests. The first athletes began to ask me for advice. That’s how it started, and at some point the trainer Trevor Graham asked me if I could help him. I explained to him how epo works, and I was in business.

SPIEGEL: What qualified you for the role of dealer to the world’s best athletes?

Heredia: My father is a chemistry professor. I love chemistry, and I was an athlete. My role was an obsession. For example, I learned everything about testosterone: that there is a type of testosterone with a high half-life and another that works very quickly. I learned that you can rub it in, take it orally, inject it. It became a kick: I was allowed to work with the best of the best, and I made them even better.

SPIEGEL: And how did you become the best in your world?

Heredia: With precision. You want an example? Everyone talks about epo. Epo is fashionable. But without adding iron, epo only works half as well. That’s the kind of thing you have to know. There are oxygen carriers that make epo work incredibly fast – they are actually better than epo alone. I call my drug “Epo Boost.” I inject it and it releases many tiny oxygen molecules throughout the body. In that way you increase the effect of epo by a factor of ten

Heredia: With precision. You want an example? Everyone talks about epo. Epo is fashionable. But without adding iron, epo only works half as well. That’s the kind of thing you have to know. There are oxygen carriers that make epo work incredibly fast – they are actually better than epo alone. I call my drug “Epo Boost.” I inject it and it releases many tiny oxygen molecules throughout the body. In that way you increase the effect of epo by a factor of ten.

SPIEGEL: Do you have any other secrets?

Heredia: Oh yes, of course. There are tablets for the kidneys that block the metabolites of steroids, so when athletes give a urine sample, they don’t excrete the metabolites and thus test negative. Or there is an enzyme that slowly consumes proteins - epo has protein structures, and the enzyme thus ensures that the B sample of the doping test has a completely different value than the A sample. Then there are chemicals that you take a couple of hours before the race that prevent acidification in the muscles. Together with epo they are an absolute miracle. I’ve created 20 different drugs that are still undetectable for the doping testers.

SPIEGEL: What trainers have you worked together with?

Heredia: Particularly with Trevor Graham.

SPIEGEL: Graham has a lifetime ban because he purportedly helped Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, ****** Gatlin and many others to cheat. Who else?

Heredia: With Winthrop Graham, his cousin. With John Smith, Maurice Greene’s coach. With Raymond Stewart, the Jamaican. With Dennis Mitchell ...

SPIEGEL: ... who won gold in the 4 x 100 meters in 1992 and today is a coach. How did the collaboration work?

Heredia: It’s a small world. It gets around who can provide you with something how quickly and at what price, who is discreet. The coaches approached me and asked if I could help them, and I said: yes. Then they gave me money, $15,000 or thereabouts, we got a first shipment and then we did business. At some point it led to one-on-one cooperation with the athletes.

SPIEGEL: Was there a regimen of sorts?

Heredia: Yes. I always combined several things. For example, I had one substance called actovison that increased blood circulation – not detectable. That was good from a health standpoint and even better from a competitive standpoint. Then we had the growth factors IGF-1 and IGF-2. And epo. Epo increases the number of red blood cells and thus the transportation of oxygen, which is the key for every athlete: the athlete wants to recover quickly, keep the load at a constantly high level and achieve a constant performance.

SPIEGEL: Once again: a constant performance at the world-class level is unthinkable without doping?

Heredia: Correct. 400 meters in 44 seconds? Unthinkable. 71 meters with a discus? No way. You might be able to run 100 meters in 9.8 seconds once with a tailwind. But ten times a year under 10 seconds, in the rain or heat? Only with doping.

Part III: “If he maintains he is clean, I can only answer that that is a lie.”

SPIEGEL: Testosterone, growth hormone, epo – that was your combination?

Heredia: Yes, with individual variations. And then amazing things are possible. In 2002 Jerome Young was ranked number 38 in the 400 meters. Then we began to work together, and in 2003 he won almost every big race.

SPIEGEL: How were you paid?

Heredia: I had an annual wage. For big wins I got a $40,000 bonus.

SPIEGEL: Your athletes have won 26 Olympic medals. How much money did you earn?

Heredia: I can’t answer that due to the investigations. But let’s put it this way: 16 to 18 successful athletes each year at between $15,000 and $20,000 per athlete. I had a good run. I had a good life.

SPIEGEL: Did you live in the shadows of the sports world, where no one was allowed to see you?

Heredia: No. I rarely traveled to the big events, but that was because of jealousy: the Americans didn’t want me to work with the Jamaicans and vice versa. But shadows? No. It was one big chain, from athletes to agents to sponsors, and I was part of it. But everyone knew how the game worked. Everyone wanted it to be this way, because everyone got rich off it.

SPIEGEL: Which agents do you mean?

Heredia: The big marketers – Robert Wagner, for example – who support the athletes and want to get them into top form because they place the athletes at the track meetings.

The Austrian marketer Wagner, founder of World Athletics Management, wrote last Thursday in an e-mail to SPIEGEL, that he “never doped athletes” or “supported and promoted” doping. And Angel Heredia, the chief witness, sat in an office in New York, an athletic man in a black shirt, still in excellent shape, and wrote down names on a sheet of paper. 41 track and field athletes, he said, were his clients, as well as boxers, soccer players and cross-country skiers. His Jamaicans: Raymond Stewart, Beverly McDonald, Brandon Simpson. From the Bahamas: Chandra Sturrup. A couple of his Americans: Jerome Young, Antonio Pettigrew, Tim Montgomery, Duane Ross, Michelle Collins, Marion Jones, C. J. Hunter, Ramon Clay, Dennis Mitchell, Joshua J. Johnson, Randall Evans, ****** Gatlin, Maurice Greene. Some of those named by Heredia have been caught doping. Others have admitted to doping, while still others deny it.

SPIEGEL: Maurice Greene? The 100 meter superstar Greene is one of the poster athletes of the Olympic movement; he swears he is clean.

Heredia: The investigations are ongoing, but if he maintains he is clean, I can only answer that that is a lie.

SPIEGEL: Can you be more specific?

Heredia: I helped him. I made a schedule for him. I equipped him.

SPIEGEL: Equipped?

Heredia: Yes, we worked together in 2003 and 2004.

SPIEGEL: Do you have receipts?

Heredia: Yes, I have a $10,000 bank transfer receipt, for example.

SPIEGEL: Greene says he spent that money on friends.

Heredia: I know that’s not true.

SPIEGEL: What did Greene, who denies having doped, get from you?

Heredia: IGF-1 and IGF-2, epo and ATP – that stands for adenosine triphosphate, which intensifies muscle contraction.

SPIEGEL: Undetectable for testers?

Heredia: Undetectable. We’ve used ointments that do not leave any traces and that enable a consistently high testosterone level in athletes.

SPIEGEL: Is there doping at every level of athletics?

Heredia: Yes, the only difference is the quality of the doping. Athletes with little money use simple steroids and hope they don’t get tested. The stars earn 50,000 dollars a month, not including starting bonuses and shoe sponsorship contracts. The very best invest 100,000 dollars – I’ll then build you a designer drug that can’t be detected.

SPIEGEL: Explain how this works.

Heredia: Designer drugs are composed of several different chemicals that trigger the desired reaction. At the end of the chain I change one or two molecules in such a way that the entire structure is undetectable for the doping testers.

SPIEGEL: The drug testers’ hunt of athletes ...

Heredia: ... is also a sport. A competition. Pure adrenaline. We have to be one or two years ahead of them. We have to know which drug is entering research where, which animals it is being used in, and where we can get it. And we have to be familiar with the testers’ methods.

SPIEGEL: Can the testers win this race?

Heredia: Theoretically yes. If all federations and sponsors and managers and athletes and trainers were all in agreement, if they were to invest all the money that the sport generates and if every athlete were to be tested twice a week – but only then. What’s happening now is laughable. It’s a token. They should save their money – or give it to me. I’ll give it to the orphans of Mexico! There will be doping for as long as there is commercial sports, performance-related shoe contracts and television

4. Teil: “Peak performances without doping are a fairytale.”

SPIEGEL: So the idea that sports are a fair competition within established rules actually died long ago?

Heredia: Yes, of course. Unless we were to go back to ancient times. Without television, without Adidas and Nike. It’s obvious: if you finish in 8th place at a big event, you get $5,000; if you finish first you get $100,000. Athletes think about this. Then they think that everyone else dopes anyway, and they are right. And you think athletes believe in morals and ideals? Peak performances without doping are a fairytale, my friend.

SPIEGEL: Do you advocate the authorization of doping?

Heredia: No, but I believe we should authorize the use of epo, IGF and testosterone, as well as adrenaline and epitestosterone – substances that the body produces itself. Simply for pragmatic reasons, because it is impossible to detect them, and also because of the fairness aspect.

SPIEGEL: Are you serious: fairness?

Heredia: Yes. Take for example the most popular drug: epo. Epo changes the hemoglobin value, and it is simply the case that people have different hemoglobin levels. Authorizing the use of epo would enable the fairness and equality that supposedly everyone wants. After all, there are genetic differences between athletes.

SPIEGEL: Differences between living things are called nature. You want to make all athletes the same through doping?

Heredia: Normal athletes have a level of 3 nanograms of testosterone per milliliter of blood; the sprinter Tim Montgomery has 3 nanograms, but Maurice Greene has 9 nanograms. So what can Tim do? It isn’t doping with endogenous substances that’s unfair, it is nature that’s unfair.

SPIEGEL: And what would you ban?

Heredia: Everything else that can be dangerous. Amphetamines? Ban them. Steroids? Ban them.

SPIEGEL: Are there still any clean disciplines?

Heredia: Track and field, swimming, cross-country skiing and cycling can no longer be saved. Golf? Not clean either. Soccer? Soccer players come to me and say they have to be able to run up and down the touchline without becoming tired, and they have to play every three days. Basketball players take fat burners – amphetamines, ephedrin. Baseball? Haha. Steroids in pre-season, amphetamines during the games. Even archers take downers so that their arm remains steady. Everyone dopes.

SPIEGEL: Did you produce the drugs yourself, or did you simply procure them?

Heredia: I didn’t have my own laboratory, I had… let’s say access to labs in Mexico City. I purchased and procured the raw materials ...

SPIEGEL: ... from where?

Heredia: Everywhere. Australia, South Africa, Austria, Bulgaria, China. I got growth hormone from the Swiss company Serono. It was never difficult to import it to Mexico, because the laws aren’t that strict. You can easily buy it in pharmacies in Mexico. Whenever a new drug was entering the test phase somewhere in the world, we knew about it and we ordered it. Then I combined substances. Sometimes I produced a gel.

SPIEGEL: Did you ever take the doping testers seriously?

Heredia: No, we laughed at them. Today, of course, it is the testers who are laughing.

SPIEGEL: How do you make a living today?

Heredia: I still have a little bit of money. I’m studying again. I want to become a pharmacist. That’s my dream, but I don’t know if I’ll find a job, if I will be charged, if I will be deported, or where I’ll go. I don’t have a life anymore. I walk around and make sure no one is following me. But compared to Jerome Young I’m doing okay.

SPIEGEL: What is the 2003 world champion doing today?

Heredia: He’s 31 years old, and he sits in a truck and delivers bread. People say he broke the laws of the sport, but that’s not true: it was exactly these rules that Jerome followed.

Really makes you wonder doesn't it!

07-09-2012, 06:13 AM
Yes FG it does make one wonder. How deceitful is the human who wishes to ascend his ladder and how willing to pull down the one above by fair or foul.

The human is not descended from the lion, nor from an alien. We can now prove exactly how we come to be walking or strutting about this planet. One of our first ancestors was the sea snake, in turn perhaps descended from some tube worm feasting on chemicals from a vent in the ocean.

The oldest 'ritual' has also been discovered by Professor Sheila Coulson:


It dates from 70,000 years ago in Africa and was centred on a vast stone python which even the San people then understood as their ancestor. Ancestor worship has always been important to the sensitive human. But snakes go back further. The Egyptians revered the cobra, the Hindus too and Shiva is usually portrayed with one round his neck, the creature that saved him when he saved the world by drinking poison. The American Indians have their sacred rattle snakes and in one African country to kill a sacred snake means death. The Druids too. Until Christianity appeared.

In other words a particular angel - Gabriel who is over serpents- has been around a very long time, indeed since life first evolved here. And Gabriel has been instrumental in bringing the human to this point by instilling something different in the creature - a religion and thus a home for an angel. We may see that to be reptilian because it is. But it precedes us. However there is something about this part snake part mammal that is even better than both its ingredients. The love a snake shows its young is what any mammal shows its young. Its defensive nature is also similar. It is a predator but without them we would long have been overun by rabbits and rats.

Now we have a problem, although the news today is cheerful in that respect as Israel is no longer talking about attacking Iran 'unilaterally' and Obama is starting to talk real sense. It is our predatory nature that seeks to overcome what needs not be overcome - the athlete next to us on the track, the nation next to us. The predatory nature that seeks to exploit and becomes a corporation to defend itself. Fortunately we also have a nurturing side and that is what we need to save things, like our planet. So it really is time to beat the sword into a ploughshare, drink the poison and save our world. You do not have to be a messiah to have this attitude, but those many humans who do this will be. The freemasons can be instrumental as they are so well placed. And of course Israel returning to the indiginous people of that area what is not Israel's and allowing them the same privileges rather than a second class carriage, would be a beacon to the world. But it will not happen if we brainwash children to believe nonsense - and it will not happen if societies like the Emin hide from the truth. The Emin should have been enlightening these children as that is what it was for - that was what Leo envisaged while he was still compos mentis - not a village but a world that cared for the planet.

There has long been bullying, back biting, climbing ladders ruthlessly and selling out of our 'emin' but the real Emin dates back at least 70,000 years and has been exploited . Can we start to clean it up? The fact that i write about victims should be enough. But what the response here has been is to fortify that wickedness and hide it. Ushers were trained to intimidate rather than nurture. Questions were not welcomed unless they were the ones that the usher could use to fortify his position. But that is not Emin. We were all in it together and that is why the fizz arrived. The spirits were as active as the members. Those who could not afford the subs were excused. The subs were not to make millionaires out of some. But that is what unscrupulous people wanted. Money and power as usual and those who did not like it were excluded.

With power comes responsibility. A powerful man who is enraged with me and thinks evil thoughts about me, is all it takes for bad dreams and ultimately ill health. We can only take so much 'torture' before our bodies rebel. I do not think elaborate rituals were used to do this, just anger and righteous indignation amongst those who need to be more careful about what they think. That is what we were trained to do. The same is true for Prime Ministers and Ayatollahs whipping up frenzies of anxiety and anger.

Merlin or Gabriel is ok. But unfortuanetyley the good intentions that started our society and the major religions is not enough. They can turn into monsters and will if the silent gentle majority allow themselves to be bullied into submission. It did not start like that. Mohammed for example was said to be the gentlest of all men. But somehow during his life things changed until when his army was camped outside a town, if they did not hear the morning call to prayer and if the citizens did not heed it, the army went in and attacked them. The morning call to prayer is what calls the farmer to feed his livestock, but seeing them do that incited the army to rage. Jesus said that on a Sabbath no man should leave his donkey suffering. The priests did not agree. In fact they violently disagreed and the Chrsitian priests burned those natural women who healed with herbs. You cannot build anything worthwhile on such foundations. If you once tossed babies on a fire you need to compensate them, not build a temple on the site. This is why there are so many angry spirits and it is not good for the nurturing we need to do.

reve x

07-09-2012, 11:37 AM
Fascinating write up on the Nuwaubians by a more impartial researcher. It is a bit long so I have taken some bits out.

While the access and design of this research has been less than satisfactory,
I have persisted nonetheless—simply because the Nuwaubians fascinated me.
I have researched many NRMs—the Rajneesh, the Raelians, the Twelve Tribes,
Scientology, among others—but the Nuwaubians continue to baffle me. Gradually,
I have come to realize that they are too sophisticated to be categorized simply as
“racists” or “black supremacists.” Rather, they are “racialists”; radical gnostics who
play with myths of race as metaphors for the veils of illusion obscuring the godlike
Higher Self or I nner Man. H aving read fragmentary accounts in H ans Jonas of the
poorly documented ancient Gnostic schools, I feel that an incomplete knowledge
of this new expression of gnostic philosophy is better than no knowledge.
So, this book is the result of my efforts to understand (or “overstand”) this
unusual Black mystery school.


How I Met the Nuwauabians
I first encountered the group in the late 1980s as I was rushing, late for work,
through Montreal’s subway in mid-winter. Two tall black men dressed in flowing
white robes handed me a religious tract with fancy A rabic script. (“What are desert
sheikhs doing here, in a Canadian blizzard?” I wondered.) I categorized them as
fundamentalist Muslims until, finding a seat on the train, I glanced at the tract
and read about…the Mahdi…UFOs…a survivalist training camp in the Catskills
(!) “Hey!” I told myself, “This group is a…cult, a Black cult!” (In those days I still used the “c” word, today considered “un-PC” among sociologists who study
new religions.) Since I was teaching a course on new religions at the time, and
writing my Ph.D. dissertation on women in NRMs, I resolved I would study them.
It turned out it wasn’t all that easy.
They called themselves the A nsaaru A llah Community in those days, and
lived in a commune near the B luebonnets race track in north Montreal, but their
headquarters was in B rooklyn, N.Y. They peddled the teachings of their “Master
Teacher” in Times Square and on the streets of many of the major U .S. and
Canadian cities where they set up tables displaying A frican incense, oils, crafts and
Dr. York’s booklets, or “scrolls.” B ut these men weren’t just ordinary peddlars,
they were “Propagators of the Knowledge”—a gnosis that concerned the true
origins and spiritual identity of all dark-skinned people—whose angelic ancestors
hailed from a distant star. They recruited A frican-American youth by day, and
slept in men’s barracks at night.
I would make it a point to track down the A nsaars on my trips to Toronto and
New York and began collecting their “scrolls.” Nestled between the incense sticks
and oil bottles on a booth, I came across The Paleman, a book that explains how
all white people have leprosy, due to the “Curse of H am.” I was amused to see
Dr. Malachi Z. York turn the tables on the white Christian churches of the Southern
Bible B elt. Despite my leprous condition, the Propagators seemed quite willing to
stare into my blue eyes and expound “The Knowledge,” or to stand around and
just chat.
One day I was chatting with a friendly Propagator at his booth on 14th Street
in the E ast Village and asked him if I could interview some of their women for
my doctoral dissertation. H e shook his head. “We do not allow them to speak
to outsiders.” So, for years I never saw their women, only photographs in the
scrolls of heavily-veiled figures in white robes exposing dark eyes, hands and bare
feet. They whirled in white coverings, embracing and circling around each other
in mysterious Sufi dances. They served their husbands and children selflessly,
emulating the folk saint, H adrat Fatimah. They worked behind the iron gate of the
Ansaar publishing office in Brooklyn, typing up Dr. York’s voluminous sermons
into “scrolls” to be sold in their bookstores. Some women were the plural wives
of the top leaders, but most of them lived in the women’s quarters, separate from
their “mates.” I f the man was successful in fundraising, he would be rewarded
by an assignation with his woman in the “Green Room” where, surrounded by
murals of a jungle E den, the couple would follow a ritual of eugenics to conceive
a pure Nubian child. These children spoke no E nglish, but were taught H ebrew,
Arabic and “Nubic”—a language invented by Dr. York. They were the 144,000
pure Nuwaubian children who would Rapture their parents just before the final
destruction of the planet.
As I hung out on the streets of New York observing them, I noticed that the
Ansaars were part of a larger scene—what I shall refer to as the “Black cultic
milieu.”13 I n 1992 my friend, Steve L uxton joined me on a research trip to
Manhattan to prepare our co-authored paper.14 W e noticed the “Muslim” A nsaars
were on surprisingly friendly terms with members of other, rival B lack nationalist
religions. A s I was conversing with a Propagator at his bookstall, a Rastafarian
came by and chatted with him. L ater, a group of B en A mmi’s B lack H ebrews
approached and proceeded to grasp the A nsaar’s wrist in a stylized handshake.
On another occasion, we were buying a copy of The Final Call from a Nation of
Islam man in a 1950s-style overcoat and red bow tie. H e and a passing A nsaar
greeted each other with delighted punches and jocular insults (using the forbidden
“N” word). W hen we asked him how the NOI regarded the A nsaars, he laughed:
“We consider them our brothers. W e are all working for the uplift of the people.”
We also received the impression that individual A nsaars did not necessarily
share Dr. York’s uncompromising stance on race. W e were surprised by the
discrepancy between the insulting portrayal of “The Paleman” in A nsaar literature
and the easygoing relationships we saw A nsaars were cultivating with “palemen”
on the street. O ne afternoon as we were hanging out on Manhattan’s 14th street,
we watched a group of H assidic boys wearing yamukas stop by at an A nsaar’s
table. O n their way home from their Yeshiva, carrying their Torahs, they hailed
the A nsaar, and launched into a spirited attack upon The L amb’s interpretations of
Talmudic doctrine and his use of H ebrew words. The A nsaar evidently welcomed
the debate and called over some of his brothers at the nearby bookstall to support
him. The boys were flaunting their erudition and thumping their Torahs, reading
out verses. They referred to an argument made last week, and the A nsaar promised
them he would bring more “proof” from the L amb’s writings on the morrow—so
it appeared that this was an ongoing relationship! O n another occasion, I watched
a freckled saxophonist with long red dreadlocks stop by for his favorite kind of
incense which the A nsaar kept for him under the counter. The two engaged in an
intense discussion about what chords should be used in certain jazz tunes, and they
made a date to get together again to “jam.”
One day I found, to my surprise, that it was actually “no problem” for a white
person to attend their meetings. I was in Times Square conversing with a charming
Propagator who was a history student at Columbia (I received the impression he
was just dabbling in A nsaar spirituality over the summer holidays).
“If you are interested in The Knowledge, why don’t you come on out to our
Question-Answer?” he asked
“Really? You allow white people to come to your meetings?”
“No problem,” he replied.
“But, is it…safe?” (When I had invited my New York friend to accompany me
to the Mosque on B ushwick A venue, he warned me about the area. “Go there, and
you’ll get shot—or a knife in your back!” he said darkly.)
When I explained my hesitation, the Propagator offered to escort me personally
to the mosque. I was to come back at six when his shift ended. I returned…but he
was nowhere to be seen. W hen I came back the next day, he avoided my glance,
and his brother A nsaars were teasing him. “Hey, your girlfriend’s back, looking
for you!”
Suddenly, in 1992, the A nsaars disappeared. I was in Toronto scouting for
“cult lit” and noticed they were not at their usual spot on the corner of B loor and
Bathurst, so I went to their other post outside the E aton Center. I saw the H are
Krishna chanting and leaping to drums, but no A nsaars. Then I noticed a lonely
middle-eastern-looking man in a white djelaba and cap selling A rabic booklets at
his stand. H e looked awfully dull for an A nsaar, and his literature lacked the usual
garish cartoons, but I approached him anyway and asked hesitantly, “are you with
the A nsaaru A llah Community?”
“Certainly not!” he replied indignantly in a B ritish accent. “I would never
associate with them. They are not even Muslims! They are a stupid cult!” H e
pointed across the street to a pair of skinny teens in green and black tunics at what
looked like a B nai B rith stall with H ebrew literature. “There they are over there,
see? They are crazy.”
So I thanked him and crossed the street. “Yes, we used to be called the A nsaaru
Allah, but now we are the H oly Tabernacle Ministries,” explained the young man
in green silk, who wore a heavy medallion of the Star of David entwined with
an A nkh.
“But how can you be Jewish?” I asked. “I thought you were Muslims?”
“We still have the Right Knowledge—and we have always been H ebrews—
kind of like the Falashi Jews,” he replied. “We overstand all the world religions.”
They were now called the H oly Tabernacle Ministries, and Dr. York was “The
Lamb” or more simply, “Rabboni.” O n my next visit to the H TM bookstore in
Philadelphia in August 1992, I was surprised to find a woman in charge. She was
not veiled. I n fact, she was wearing shorts and a tank top. She assured me they
were no longer Muslims, because “we’re not a religion, we study factology.” W hen
I asked her what “factology” was, she replied, “we don’t believe in anything—
we just study the facts, ma’am.” I realized that women were finally visible and
recognized for the de facto role they had held as theologians and administrators
since the beginning of the movement.
After 1992 I began to show up occasionally at the Question&Answer classes,
held at their Tents of Kedar chain of bookstores (later renamed All Eyes on Egipt).
I attended two in Philadelphia, three in B rixton (a bleak, depressing area of
London, B rixton is now considered to be a hotbed of Muslim terrorist training).More regularly, I traveled from Montreal to B rooklyn, New York. I t was there that
I attended my very first Question&Answer meeting

The Question&Answer Classes
One Sunday afternoon I took the subway from the E ast Village to B rooklyn and
walked to the Tents of Kedar bookstore, located next door to the mosque on 717
Bushwick A venue. O n entering the black gold-lettered entrance, I found myself in
a fantasy world, surrounded by black and gold symbols, A rabic script and E gyptian
statues. The walls were lined with bookcases displaying hundreds of Dr. York’s
books or “scrolls,” illustrated in the A nsaar’s inimitable style of folk art.
I made my way to the back room behind the bookstore. There I counted
16 people sitting in unfolded metal chairs—mostly men wearing turbans or fezes,
and a few women with elaborate braided hairdos or turbans. I counted three
babies and five children. The walls were painted with scenes of muscular black
angels flying past planets and alighting on UFOs. Statues of Egyptian gods and
man-beasts of gilded papier maché guarded the raised platform where the
Minister stood.
Some people in the front row moved over courteously to offer me a seat.
I sat down and took out a notebook. The man beside me suppressed a grin, eyes
dancing beneath his fez. L ater I overheard a group of older disciples joking about
the “white professor lady” who “spied on us.” They were standing outside the
temple, snorting with laughter—that stopped suddenly when they saw me.
The Minister was a young man dressed severely in black with a fez and shades.
He opened with the traditional Nubic greeting, “Rahuawabbbat!”
“Rahuawabbat!” the congregation responded—and the class began.
I sat there scribbling furiously, but so was everyone else. The minister
encouraged them to take notes, so I fit right in. When I reviewed my notes of
that very first meeting, I can see I was having trouble recording an intense debate
over the relative merits of different genres of H ip H op. O ne man insisted that
all recent Hip Hop music was decadent and of no spiritual benefit to the Nubian
people. Then a young woman jumped to her feet: “Hip H op exposes the no-justice,
hypocrisy in A merikahn society! That’s the main business of H iphop, and that has
to be the first step towards Black Eye-Dent-itee!”
“Yeah! She’s right!” agreed her friends.
A group of teenagers tried to defend their favorite group (that I ’d never heard
of) as intrinsically “spiritual,” but the older adepts argued that the inspiration and
uplift of ‘80s rap and H iphop “got drownded” in drugs, violence and pornography.
(“Have you listened to Tupac?”…“Cassius D showed us how they use the satanic
symbols in H iphop advertising!”… . “Yeah, when the Devil came out of the Pit and
had sex with Jack Kennedy”…“The Central Computer B rain, 666, has digitalized
those rappers you see on TV—look at Eminem, and Jay-Z!”).
“Oh! Jay-Z!” Everyone laughed.

More to come..

07-09-2012, 01:03 PM
The Meeting in Harlem
Over the years I would attend the occasional meeting at the bookstores, usually
accompanied by a friend or two, and would try to keep a low profile, scribbling
down the discussions in my notebook.21 Sometimes I got the impression that as
soon as I showed up, the minister would downplay the anti-white rhetoric out of
courtesy. B ut there was one minister who seemed to enjoy insulting me in public.
My worst experience was when I attended a meeting at the B lack National Theatre
in H arlem with my old friend Tony, an I talian-American pianist (who happens to
be gay).
This was a solidarity meeting for Dr. York who was in prison awaiting trial.
Afrika B ombaataa’s Zulu Nation, the Prince H all Masons, the Moorish Science
Temple, the New B lack Panther Party, and members of various other groups had
come out in support of a persecuted black leader. I was fascinated by the men’s
costumes, the masonic symbols, the strange hats, the fezes and turbans. E ach
speaker at the podium introduced himself by name, then declared…“and I am
a criminal!” (meaning all black men are assumed to be criminals in A merikah).
York’s disciples were handing out DVDs of A bigail W ashington’s recantment. She
was the star witness for the prosecution in the case against Dr. York, and she had
just recanted her testimony and declared he was no child molester, that it had all
been a conspiracy. The Nuwaubians were full of hope… .
As I sat enjoying the speeches, my friend Tony returned from the bathroom
looking distraught. “There were these tough-looking macho guys standing outside
the men’s, glaring at me. I hear them muttering “Honky”…“Cracker.” “They were
scary! I thought they were going to beat me up!” I asked him what those terms
meant, and he explained that “honky” refers to the Caucasian protruding nose, and
that “cracker” refers to the bleached color of Saltine crackers. (Later I found out,
from reading Mattias Gardell, that he was quite wrong.)
“Don’t worry, Tony,” I said. “They were probably just joking around. H ere,
come sit by me, they like me!” L ater on I went over to speak to a female minister,
but she ignored my greeting and turned her chair right around so that her back was
towards me. Tony commented, “She hates you Susan, how can you say she likes
you?” W e were the only white people in the hall, except for Paul Greenhouse, the
documentary filmmaker, who was crouched on the floor in the front row, blending
into his camera as he filmed the speakers. When we discussed the meeting
afterwards, Paul noted that this minister had become more distant towards him
also, and he thought she was disillusioned because the media showed so little
interest in A bigail’s recant.
Next, one of the speakers launched into a diatribe knocking homosexuals and
miming “fairy” affectations, which elicited roars of appreciative laughter from the
audience. Tony, who is a “gay pride” homosexual (albeit invisibly) was offended.
He swore this was the last time he would ever accompany me to one of my “cult
A Nuwaubian minister was giving a speech on the podium. Suddenly she
proclaimed loudly, “White people don’t have no souls!” and stared down directly
at me.
“White people don’t have no souls!” she repeated. “They are parasites. They
have no energy, no life force of their own. So they have to feed off of us! A nd I see one parasite right here sitting in the front making notes, studying how to feed
off of us better!”
Every Zulu, every B lack Panther, every Moor, every Mason in the room
swiveled their fezes, turbans and eyeballs in my direction. I was caught—pinned—
with my pencil poised over my notebook. A t that moment, I felt a physical pang
of pure, undiluted paranoia. I had never realized before that paranoia could be a
palpable, physiological experience… .
On another occasion, when I sat in on a Q&A meeting, the minister started
giving me a rough time, directing jocular insults at me. W hen the meeting broke
up, I was slinking towards the exit behind the stragglers heading for the front room
of the bookstore—but suddenly I found a chair offered to me by a smiling group
of Nuwaubians, who drew up their seats to make a circle. (I’d noticed before that
the more this minister insulted me in public, the friendlier the disciples became in
“So, Sister, what do you think of us?” a pretty woman asked, gazing at me with
golden-flecked orbs enhanced by feathery arching eyebrows.
“Yeah, what are your conclusions?” enquired her mate, an athletic man in black
designer leather and a fez. “Here, little Sister, bring this lady something to eat!”
Two little girls were handing out paper plates of grilled chicken, rice, beans and
salad and collecting five-dollar bills. The man in the fez kindly paid for mine.
“Well,” I said, balancing my plate on my lap, “I find you very, ah…different
from other spiritual movements I’ve studied”
“Oh yeah? How so?”
“Well, most groups I have studied borrow from Theosophy or Hinduism. I find
the ideas completely unfamiliar here, and your language is so different. I guess I am pretty impressed by Dr. York’s originality…his creativity!”
They laughed: “You got O ur Master wrong, pro-fessor. H e’s an intellectualeffectual
genius—and that’s why They chose him, but he only says what They tell
him to say.”
“Who tells him?”
“The Nephelim.”
“The Eloheem…haven’t you read The Holy Tablets?”
“And he’s got creativity, all right. She’s right about cree-ay-tivity!”
(A little girl poured me a paper cup of iced peach tea.)
“So what do you make of us?” the golden-orbed woman kept probing. “What
do you make of The Knowledge?”
“Well, I notice that Your Master plage…I mean quotes a lot of passages from
Elijah Muhammad and other philosophers—but then he combines their ideas in a
highly original way…so as to say something, well…new.”
“You’re on the right track, pro-fessor!” an older man said.
“So, what’s your spiritual path?” the pretty girl leaned forward, her bright
golden eyes seeking a chink in the sociologist’s armor. “Are you a Christian or
After years of studying unconventional religions, there always seems to be a
critical point in my field research when the group I am scrutinizing will suddenly
turn the tables, gang up and put me on the “hot seat.” I have never enjoyed this. The
Twelve Tribes subjected me to this ordeal, the Scientologists also, the Rajneeshee,
the Hare Krishna, the Moonies… .
I opted to be as boring as possible, so I could get back to observing them.
“Well, actually, I was brought up in a lapsed Mormon family. I hardly ever go to
church. To tell you the truth, I am confused about my spirituality…if I have any at
all. I guess that’s one reason why I’m here. I’m checking it out.”
“I toll you so!” piped up an older lady. “She’s a pil-grim!”
“So why don’t you come on our pilgrimage?” the golden-eyed girl asked.
“Where, when is that?”
“The Zed Festival. A t Tama Re. You can sign up here at the front desk.”
“Yeah. You should come!”
“We’re all going!”
“If you really want to overstand us, you should come!”

One more bit later!

07-09-2012, 02:51 PM
Fg keep it up - an angelic in the making before the myths kick in. Ours was no so different.

reve x

07-09-2012, 06:52 PM
Fascinating write up on the Nuwaubians by a more impartial researcher. It is a bit long so I have taken some bits out.

More to come..

That inspired me to do a quick search on Ham. Look at the name of this lot, seems connected.

9uardians of the 9th 9ate

The propagation of the sacred science of Wu-Nuwaupu and it's 720 degrees.

The true curse of Canaan

Has nothing to do with dark skin. It is a curse of the Caucasian and explains your pale skin. Ham's son Canaan and all his seed are cursed with leprosy. All the references are there in your Torah and can be detailed.

1. 2Ki 5:27 "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper [as white] as snow."
2. Luk 4:27 "And many lepers were in Israel [aka Canaan] in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian."
3. Num 12:10 "And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous."

The curse of Ham isn't about dark skin, but rather the disease of leprosy, of which a side effect causes whitened skin. Reverend S.C. Blackledge, who stated in his book "An Open Book On Hidden Mystery" p.55 that Canaan is the cursed albino seed that spawned the Caucasian race. Albinism and vitiligo was historically was known as "white leprosy" of which this particular form of leprosy is now referred to as Alphos.

The Curse of Ham is not about dark skin, but rather disease. Where does it state in the Tanakh the nature of a curse against Canaan other than the land of Canaan being riddled with leprosy in the book of Leviticus? The land of Canaan (aka Israel) of course being where Ham's son settled. Definition two of Strong's Concordance defines the word Canaan (כנען) as follows " the land west of the Jordan peopled by the descendants of Canaan and subsequently conquered by the Israelites under Joshua", and Leviticus 14:34 confirmed that the land was riddled with leprosy. As defined, the land was not conquered by the Israelites until the book of Joshua. So, clearly the Leviticus biblical verse (14:34) is the only consenting reference and defines a plague which could be considered the "curse of Canaan" as prophesied.

The Hebraic word for "house" is "bayith" [בית] ( Strong's H1004) defined in definition 5b as: "family of descendants, descendants as organized body". This definition can be applied in Leviticus verse 14:34 and can describe lineage (in a house of the land...) and NOT a physical home. Ham is defined in definition 2 of Strong's Concordance as "a collective name for Egyptians". The book of Genesis is clear that NORTH Africans, not all Africans descended from Ham as per the Gesenius Lexicon commentary: "חם a name of Egypt; properly it's domestic name amongst the Egyptians themselves..."

We can also conclude from this passage that Leviticus 14:34 could also very well be defining in allegory lineage. Finally, all of Ham's sons (Gen 10:6 Cush, Mizraim, Phut, and Canaan) are described as being black except Canaan. Cush = Ethiopian, Phut = Libyan, Mitsrayim = Egyptian. Obviously, because he wasn't. Canaan is defined as simply "the son of Ham" and "lowland" as in another name for modern day Israel. I can find no black nor African references associated with the name of Canaan who has historically been associated with Phoenicians.
Posted by Nebuwah Hutip


07-09-2012, 07:41 PM
As with many angelic religions the leaders are men and get to have more than one wife and also seem to be involved in child abuse. there is always some qwasi Egyptian stuff. Leo had the idea that the pyramids were solar furnaces, that the Egyptians had electricity without wires etc. But they did not and the pyramids were developments from the early masataba tombs of the first Pharaohs. The Egyptian Pharaohs varied in colour from white with itchy red sunburned skin to pure black. They also portray yellow Asiatics in their pictures. Yorke is sorely mkisled but had not read the Book of Enoch we presume. This describes Ham's father:

THE BOOK OF ENOCH translated by R. H. Charles, published by Oxford: The Clarendon Press
The Book of Enoch is part of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a collection of ancient Judaic writings spanning from approximately the third century BCE to 68 CE. The scrolls were found in several desert caves about 15 miles from Jerusalem, and they pre-date the earliest Hebrew Scriptures by nearly 1,000 years. Although some material from the scrolls had been incorporated within the Bible, a substantial portion of their content was omitted from the Biblical canon.
The writings of the scrolls are apocalyptic in nature, warning of mass destruction at the hands of supernatural forces in the reckoning between good and evil. The Great Flood, which extinguishes all of mankind except for Noah and his immediate family, is one such disaster. Among the Dead Sea Scrolls, a fragment of what is believed to be the Book of Noah — which, in various publications of the translated text, has been appended to the Book of Enoch — recounts the extraordinary circumstances of Noah's birth that portend his sacred mission. He is divinely selected as the finest example of his species; after a devastating deluge that spares no human lives except those of Noah and his closest kin, Noah becomes the patriarchal ancestor to whom all subsequent people trace their origins.
Noah as a newborn is described as being very pale in appearance, with white hair and skin. His looks are so unusual that his father, Lamech, initially suspects his wife of having had an adulterous affair with a lusty fallen angel. Lamech's father Methuselah seeks the counsel of Noah's great-grandfather Enoch (from whose perspective the narrative is told), expressing his feelings and concerns, but is reassured that Noah is indeed Lamech's own son — one who is destined for greatness. Here is the passage:
And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. And his father Lamech was afraid of him and fled, and came to his father Methuselah. And he said unto him: "I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious. And it seems to me that he is not sprung from me but from the angels, and I fear that in his days a wonder may be wrought on the earth. And now, my father, I am here to petition thee and implore thee that thou mayest go to Enoch, our father, and learn from him the truth, for his dwelling-place is amongst the angels." And when Methuselah heard the words of his son, he came to me to the ends of the earth; for he had heard that 1 was there, and he cried aloud, and I heard his voice and I came to him. And 1 said unto him: "Behold, here am I, my son, wherefore hast thou come to me?" And he answered and said: "Because of a great cause of anxiety have I come to thee, and because of a disturbing vision have I approached. And now, my father, hear me: unto Lamech my son there hath been born a son, the like of whom there is none, and his nature is not like man's nature, and the colour of his body is whiter than snow and redder than the bloom of a rose, and the hair of his head is whiter than white wool, and his eyes are like the rays of the sun, and he opened his eyes and thereupon lighted up the whole house. And he arose in the hands of the midwife, and opened his mouth and blessed the Lord of heaven. And his father Lamech became afraid and fled to me, and did not believe that he was sprung from him, but that he was in the likeness of the angels of heaven; and behold I have come to thee that thou mayest make known to me the truth." And I, Enoch, answered and said unto him: "The Lord will do a new thing on the earth, and this I have already seen in a vision, and make known to thee that in the generation of my father Jared some of the angels of heaven transgressed the word of the Lord. And behold they commit sin and transgress the law, and have united themselves with women and commit sin with them, and have married some of them, and have begot children by them. And they shall produce on the earth giants not according to the spirit, but according to the flesh, and there shall be a great punishment on the earth, and the earth shall be cleansed from all impurity. Yea, there shall come a great destruction over the whole earth, and there shall be a deluge and a great destruction for one year. And this son who has been born unto you shall be left on the earth, and his three children shall be saved .....

Abraham's wife Sarah was a blonde and unusual which was why pharaoh lusted after her, and probably why Abraham did too.

Yorke's angels want to start a war in the US and across the globe as usual. But this week seem to want peace (especially for themselves). The Olympics, literature, the arts and science prove that genes of colour do not confer any superiority at all and we should all know better by now.

reve x

07-09-2012, 11:30 PM
That inspired me to do a quick search on Ham. Look at the name of this lot, seems connected.

9uardians of the 9th 9ate

The propagation of the sacred science of Wu-Nuwaupu and it's 720 degrees.

The true curse of Canaan

Has nothing to do with dark skin. It is a curse of the Caucasian and explains your pale skin. Ham's son Canaan and all his seed are cursed with leprosy. All the references are there in your Torah and can be detailed.

1. 2Ki 5:27 "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper [as white] as snow."
2. Luk 4:27 "And many lepers were in Israel [aka Canaan] in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian."
3. Num 12:10 "And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous."

The curse of Ham isn't about dark skin, but rather the disease of leprosy, of which a side effect causes whitened skin. Reverend S.C. Blackledge, who stated in his book "An Open Book On Hidden Mystery" p.55 that Canaan is the cursed albino seed that spawned the Caucasian race. Albinism and vitiligo was historically was known as "white leprosy" of which this particular form of leprosy is now referred to as Alphos.

The Curse of Ham is not about dark skin, but rather disease. Where does it state in the Tanakh the nature of a curse against Canaan other than the land of Canaan being riddled with leprosy in the book of Leviticus? The land of Canaan (aka Israel) of course being where Ham's son settled. Definition two of Strong's Concordance defines the word Canaan (כנען) as follows " the land west of the Jordan peopled by the descendants of Canaan and subsequently conquered by the Israelites under Joshua", and Leviticus 14:34 confirmed that the land was riddled with leprosy. As defined, the land was not conquered by the Israelites until the book of Joshua. So, clearly the Leviticus biblical verse (14:34) is the only consenting reference and defines a plague which could be considered the "curse of Canaan" as prophesied.

The Hebraic word for "house" is "bayith" [בית] ( Strong's H1004) defined in definition 5b as: "family of descendants, descendants as organized body". This definition can be applied in Leviticus verse 14:34 and can describe lineage (in a house of the land...) and NOT a physical home. Ham is defined in definition 2 of Strong's Concordance as "a collective name for Egyptians". The book of Genesis is clear that NORTH Africans, not all Africans descended from Ham as per the Gesenius Lexicon commentary: "חם a name of Egypt; properly it's domestic name amongst the Egyptians themselves..."

We can also conclude from this passage that Leviticus 14:34 could also very well be defining in allegory lineage. Finally, all of Ham's sons (Gen 10:6 Cush, Mizraim, Phut, and Canaan) are described as being black except Canaan. Cush = Ethiopian, Phut = Libyan, Mitsrayim = Egyptian. Obviously, because he wasn't. Canaan is defined as simply "the son of Ham" and "lowland" as in another name for modern day Israel. I can find no black nor African references associated with the name of Canaan who has historically been associated with Phoenicians.
Posted by Nebuwah Hutip


Anymore on 'Cush' what is his story? There is a rap group in London called Orphans of Cush. I thought it was from the popular indica cannabis strain Kush or afghan Kush - obviously not!

07-09-2012, 11:49 PM
The rest of the lady's Nuwaubian experience. The book is called 'Overstanding the Nuwaubians' the author is not named in the version I am looking at online.

It was past midnight when I found myself walking up the cement ramps that
led in wide concentric squares up the Pyramid. A loudspeaker on the tip of the
pyramid chanted “OM-OM-OM-OM-OM,” droning on continuously. E veryone
was wading laboriously uphill, with a slow “slosh, sloosh”—we’d just experience
another Georgian monsoon, so the water was, literally, up to our knees. The full
moon was glowing above the towering silhouette of the pyramid. The O M-OMOM
was punctuated by a high descant of croaking frogs crouched fearlessly
on the ramps, their tiny throats swelling into balloons as their round eyes fixed
hypnotically on the moon.
When we reached the top of the pyramid we stood around on the edge of a
large square. Two tall pharaohs in golden headdresses padded quickly along the
edge of the crowd in bare feet, their hands blessing us in cryptic gestures, chanting intelligible syllables that I assumed were supposed to be ancient E gyptian. They
were handsome and charismatic, and I was impressed by the power of the Maguraj.
I had expected it to be “hokey” as a new concocted ritual. B ut there was something
beautiful and moving about it. I felt I was on the verge of a mild, aesthetic trancestate—
but I kept worrying about my new grey suede sandals, recently purchased on
sale at Arche—the water would ruin them. (“What is wrong with me?” I thought.
“Here is a door opening onto a mystical experience, possibly the panenhenic type
that W illiam James wrote about—but all I can do is obsess about fashion? A h well,
all pilgrimages demand sacrifice!”)
During the week-long festival I was able to converse with many of the pilgrims,
and discovered that most of them were not really “Nuwaubians.” I n fact, my
impression was that most of the 1000-odd folks attending this festival were just
plain, middle-class A frican-Americans with a general interest in B lack I dentity,
who wanted to show their kids the B lack H istory museum. I n the course of the
next week, I talked to schoolteachers, accountants, lawyers, doctors and engineers
from all across the U .S. who had read Dr. York’s writings. They didn’t strike me as
particularly “racialist,” but they all expressed a romantic interest in their A frican
heritage and wished to communicate “Black Pride” to their kids.
The festival was an ongoing fashion show, with hundreds of beautiful women
dressed in eclectic fantasy outfits that illustrated Dr. York’s shifting mythologies of
their A frican, A rabian, E gyptian, Moorish, A merindian origins. Masonic symbols
dominated the parades, the architecture, and the men’s supposedly secret meetings.
The books I picked up to examine spoke of the mysteries of Freemasonry, and
were often snatched from my hands. (“Excuse me, Sister, that’s AEO .”)
Visually, the festival was a delight, but the food was not to my taste. A ll they
served was deep-fried chicken or fish, and fries. “Salad” meant instant macaroni
with celery bits and onion. Festival events were often interrupted by a violent
downpour, a kind of Georgian monsoon. W e would have to halt the parade, disband
the drumfest, and run for cover under the pyramid. There I would sit in the top
gallery, entertaining the children.
The first morning at the motel started when I went swimming in the pool. I
noticed that none of the adult Nuwaubians entered the pool (perhaps the women
were too modest, since not so long ago they had been wearing Muslim robes and
face veils)—but some of the kids were wading in the shallow end. A single father
asked me if I could teach his kids to swim. I agreed, but I found his children
surprisingly fearful of the water and mistrustful of me—although they laughed
hysterically and flailed around. Then more parents asked me to watch over their
kids in the pool, and I became the unofficial bodyguard. After that, the kids started
following me around like a mother duck—which cramped my research efforts.
A little girl liked to brush and braid my hair, and a little boy would run his hands
along my arm, then stare at his palms to see if the whiteness came off. The children
expressed anti-white attitudes quite openly, but they had the ability to transcend
them in a twinkling of an eye.
I first noticed this when we were waiting for the bus on the pavement outside
the All Eyes on Egipt bookstore in B rooklyn. The bus was two hours late, it was
getting dark, and the children were getting brattier and brattier. O ne little boy
bounced up to me in his thick-soled lime-green sneakers that functioned like pogo
“Why you decide come here hang out with us niggers?” he asked. [He really
did say exactly that.]
I was taken aback, and responded honestly without thinking, “because I find
you interesting.”
He sproinged backward, considered my answer, and let out a husky laugh. H e
hopped forwards and threw his arms around my waist in a hug, almost throwing
me off balance. Then he bounced back to his friends, his sneakers flashing
red-green lights each time he landed… .
At the Zed festival, he and four other kids followed me around, constantly
interfering with my work. I tried interviewing them, but found, although they
exhibited a deep reverence for “Maku” or “Pops,” they actually knew very little
about Dr. York or their parents’ religion.
One adolescent girl proved to be an exception. I asked her the standard
question, “When did you receive The Knowledge?”—and she explained that her
mother was a nurse who worked at the hospital, and sitting at home all alone
after school, she was bored (“Nothin’ to do but watch tell-lies-vision”), so she
started to attend the meetings at the All Eyes on Egipt bookstore down the street.
But her mother did not approve of this. (“My mothah won’t let. She say I was
getting over-involved with Nuwaupu.”) So, the girl invited her friends over for
a Question&Answer meeting, and they brought their sisters and brothers. Then
more people started coming (“even big grownups”). The girl led the meetings
(“I was real good at teachin’ Right Knowledge!”). She even wrote a letter to Maku
requesting permission to open her own bookstore, but then, “My mothah, she don’t
like comin’ home from hospital findin’ too much folks bridgin’ in her livin’ room.
So she say, ‘Stop teachin’ in my house. Go back to the bookstore’!”

The Imposter
A chubby man waddled up to me as I was wandering through the Museum of
Black H istory and asked me if I were a journalist. H e was wearing a Plains I ndians
feathered headdress and full I ndian regalia. H e said he was from Philadelphia and
worked for the U nited Nations—and gave me his business card to prove it. H e
claimed he was an ambassador for the Yamassee First Nations and he was working
on a project to relocate the Yamassee back to their original lands in A frica (he
handed me another business card, and a flyer). We sat down on a bench in between
Annubis and Thoth and talked. H e told me about his important “humanitarian”
projects, his various official “hats” (presenting appropriate business cards for each
one)—but when I asked him about Dr. Malachi Z. York and Right Knowledge, I was
surprised by how little he knew, and even more by his lack of passion concerning
these topics. He flattered me, saying I must have African blood—that it showed
up in my “beautiful red hair, like the Touareg tribe” (I decided not to mention my
henna treatments). A fter we parted, I ran into one of the Triad and asked him about
my informant: “He said what!?” Khunsu H otep exploded. I showed him the man’s
business cards and the flyers.
“He’s no Nuwaubian! H e’s an imposter. W e get a lot of phonies who come
here, pretending they received The Knowledge—just to get attention and push
their own trip!”
Khunsu H otep called the security guards over and made me describe the culprit,
and they bounded off to find him and escort him off the property. I never got
the cards or flyers back—but I couldn’t use an interview with a fake Nuwaubian

But…Is He Really Guilty?
When I arrived home, my daughter scolded me: “Mom! I told my friends you went
on a bus trip with a bunch of Black Supremacists! They said your Mom must be
She was half joking, but by this time I had begun to realize that some serious
issues were at stake.
When I started researching the Nuwaubians, it was in the spirit of fun. I even
found The Paleman amusing. I was aware, of course, that new religious movements
are stigmatized in the media and are subjected to harassment by secular authorities,
mainly as a result of an overwhelming public ignorance and media-generated
prejudice towards unconventional religions. B ut I began to realize that “Black”
new religions might face an even greater weight of opposition.
This message was reinforced by an A frican-American woman scholar I met
at a conference in Rochester, N.Y. I had just presented a paper on the Nuwaubian
controversy in Georgia, using deviance amplification theory to analyze the
mounting conflict. She raised her hand.
“The kind of conflicts you describe…you think it is because the group is a new
religious movement, right?”
I nodded.
“Well, I was thinking that, coming from Canada, you might be unaware—that
you haven’t been sensitized—to our racial issues, to the very real race problem
that exists in the U .S. today… . The story you tell in your paper is a very familiar
story—it’s what happens every time A frican-American people get together and
start to get organized. Then they are viewed as a threat! The leader is arrested
and accused of something, their property is taken away and their community is
broken up and dispersed. A nd it isn’t because they are a ‘NRM’, like you argue,
it’s because they are Black!”
I thought about her statement. I n the end I decided it was impossible to
determine to what extent the cultural opposition to the Nuwaubian Nation was
motivated by anticultism, to what extent by racism—and to what extent by Dr.
York’s provocative behavior—probably a mixture of all three.
The Nuwaubian story is fascinating, but it is also disturbing. I t raises serious
questions about justice, about the status and social control of racial and religious
minorities in A merica, and about the steep proliferation of prophets accused of
pedophilia on our new religious landscape. A fter returning from the pilgrimage to
Tama Re, I felt someone should write a book—and perhaps I should be the one.
At the time of this writing, most of the information on the U NN’s history of
conflict is to be found in local newspapers from the small towns in Middle Georgia.
Needless to say, journalistic portrayals of this B lack utopian movement have been
almost uniformly dystopian—but why should journalists have the last word on
what they call the “Nuwaubian Nightmare?”
Bill O sinski, a journalist who covered the Nuwaubian story in the Atlanta
Journal Constitution, attacks Dr. York’s role as a black reformer, liberator and
benefactor, accusing him of, “using the trappings of an orderly strict religious
community as a cover for his wide-ranging criminal enterprises.”24 York’s success,
he explains, was due to his being a “gifted manipulator.” H e portrays York’s
disciples as gullible, pathetic dupes who stand by helplessly while York robs their
bank accounts, seduces their wives and molests their daughters. H e dismisses
York’s teachings as “preposterous twaddle,” as “downright silly,” and he insists
that York’s movement should not be taken seriously as a religion: “To call him a
religious leader is to blaspheme the whole notion of religion as a force of good,”
declares Osinski.25
Most sociologists of religion would disagree with this statement. I would
argue that the “authenticity” of a religion does not necessarily depend whether its
prophet-founder measures up to twenty-first-century North American standards of
morality and political correctness. Muhammad practiced polygamy, Plato was a
homosexual, and Mother A nn L ee preached celibacy and denounced married life
as “carnal concupiscence.” Nor can this standard be applied to artists. Gesualdo,
an I talian Renaissance composer of vocal polyphony, murdered his adulterous
wife and his baby (whom he suspected was illegitimate). H e is nevertheless
universally recognized as an innovative composer. Van Gogh degenerated into
schizophrenia and consorted with prostitutes. Coleridge was addicted to opium.
Many great Jazz musicians have died of cirrhosis of the liver, and Rock singers of
heroin overdoses—but their private vices and moral deficiencies do not diminish
their artistic legacy. The late James B rown was notorious as a wife-beater, but his
Motown beat ruled the stage.
New religious founders are creative artists. A s prophets, mystics or messiahs,
they rarely conform to middle-class A merican standards of decorum. Thus,
Osinski’s notion that Dr. York concocted a series of phony, copycat “cults” simply
to “control people” and facilitate his “criminal activities” is absurd. I t requires raw
talent and tireless effort to maintain the mantle of a prophet. O nly an obsessive
reader and compulsive spiritual seeker could have written, edited, and overseen
the production of over 450 esoteric “scrolls.” O nly a preacher with extraordinary
rhetorical skill and presence could inspire, excite laughter, and hold the attention
of his audience for 40 years.
Tens of thousands of A frican-Americans have read the writings of Dr. Malachi
Z. York. O ver ten thousand have participated in his 40-year series of spiritual
movements. A nother ten thousand and more have visited Tama Re. I n order for a
white researcher to even begin to understand the relevance of Dr York’s teachings
for his Nuwaubians, it is necessary to talk to them, and to attend their meetings.
Here, one can observe their rituals, see how the ideas are communicated to the
congregation by York’s ministers, and watch the disciples in action. I n order to
“overstand” York’s message of “Right Knowledge,” the researcher must first try to
empathize with the disciples, to try to see the world through their eyes.
One of the most daunting challenges I faced in writing this manuscript was
addressing the topic of child molestation. I n an early draft of a paper that I submitted
to an academic journal, I decided to “bracket” the issue of York’s culpability and
focus on how the media’s treatment of the “Nuwaubian Nightmare” may have
influenced his trial. The editor protested that I was “trivializing the suffering of the
victims” by taking this approach. I felt strongly that this was unfair. A t the time
of writing, York was still on trial, and three of the witnesses for the prosecution
had just recanted their testimonies, saying now that they had not been molested.
The judge had dismissed members of the jury after finding they were “tainted” by
the sensationalistic news reports that featured lurid interviews with the alleged
victims of the (alleged) cult leader sexual predator. Countless news reports (and
a book) have been published that broadcast the suffering of the victims—but the
possibility that York may be an innocent man, or at least innocent of some of the
charges laid against him, has been ignored.
Unfortunately, I cannot judge whether Dr. York is guilty or innocent of the
charges of child molestation. A s his lawyer, A drian Patrick, aptly put it, “I cannot
tell you what he did or did not do in the privacy of his own bedroom ten years ago.”
I am, however, quite convinced he did not receive a fair trial. A ttorney Patrick
claims that the state charges would have been dismissed for lack of evidence, except
that they were “improperly combined” with the federal racketeering charges. I t is
also clear that the case against York was carefully planned and orchestrated by a
network of cultural opponents that included ex-members, his estranged son and
daughter, journalists and law-enforcement agents (although evidence that there
was a “conspiracy” does not, in itself, necessarily mean the conspirators were not
telling the truth).
Because of the way Dr York’s court case was handled, it is possible we may
never know what “really happened.” A s is typical of child molestation cases based
on alleged crimes that may or may not have occurred years ago, there is no physical
evidence, no forensic evidence. B ut neither is there any evidence that would prove
his innocence. The case against Dr. York has rested entirely on the statements
of the victims—and these cannot be examined because the court transcripts
are unavailable, and the witnesses have presumably been warned by the FBI not
to talk.
Moreover, there has been an extraordinary rise of allegations of child molestation
or pedophilia laid against “cult leaders.” A s the sociologist and lawyer, James T.
Richardson, notes: “child sex abuse allegations have become a new, fashionable
and highly-effective strategy in the social control of unconventional religions.”26
Dr. York was already unpopular, long before he was charged with child molestation.
He was a notorious “black militant” and “cult leader” of a “quasi-religious sect”
with a long history of suspected arson and stockpiling arms, of violation of zoning
regulations and building codes.
As of this writing, Dr. York’s team of lawyers are preparing an appeal before
the Supreme Court.27 Meanwhile, Dr. York’s loyal followers have been building
new institutions, creating apocalyptic scenarios and hagiographies of their leader,
in their efforts to mythologize the grim situation and imbue Dr. York’s punishment
with a higher meaning. O ne can only extrapolate on the possible future of this new
religious movement and its imprisoned leader by drawing parallels with Sabbatai
Zevi, Marcus Garvey, E lijah Muhammad, Yahweh B en Yahweh, Clarence 13X,
and other heterodox spiritual leaders who were sent to prison. My guess is that
the U nited Nuwaubian Nation will undergo a series of schisms and then gradually
subside into the B lack cultic milieu, the matrix from whence it sprung. Dr. Malachi
Z. York will become one of the legendary martyrs of B lackosophy in A merica, and
his ideas will live on, as plagiarized, appropriated, uncited passages in the sacred
writings of future Black Messiahs in A merica.

So it comes right back round to perhaps a 'Bag-a-wire' situation for Yorke himself. Had no idea that this was going on in Brixton! I wonder if anything to do with the muslim gangs in the area - 'muslim boyz' and 'pdc'- 'poverty driven children'.

08-09-2012, 01:22 AM
Right the Emin influence. Well no one will like my view on this as I would start with the vast earthquake in China that killed a million people in the 70's which Leo forecast/predicted to the day and said at the time of his prediction that this was part of the work he was doing. I do not remember what he said after the event but some here will.

I was not in the Emin by 9/11 and the millenium prophecies. I only know the pilots were trained in Florida and thought they were doing great work too. Leo died shortly after the attack so what did he say about it?

reve x

Hi reve, Leo predicted it for his own birthday of July 27th I think it was, the earthquake happened the next day. The Chinese had known that a big one was on the way for a long time and had narrowed it down to July 22nd - Aug 5th a month before. That gives odds of 15/1, but when you consider how wrapped up in his own significance Leo was, then choosing his own birthday negates that. I see this as a good example of 'confirmation bias'.
It was not a very large surprise that an earthquake struck Tangshan, since it had already been predicted by the State Seismological Bureau. A man named Wang Chengmin had even predicted it to happen within the range of July 22nd and August 5th. The surprise was that it struck in the middle of the night and so suddenly. It is believed that the death toll would have been even higher had a man named Wang Chunqing not taken the news as seriously. He decided to prepare his county for the event and was even evacuating some sections of the county.

I find it incongruent that a man can predict and 'influence' an earthquake through his work, and yet is powerless to stop his own officers from taking advantage of Emin ladies or even robbing the till according to earlier posts here.

Am I missing something?

08-09-2012, 09:41 AM
thanks wh - sometimes I have to wonder about my recollection as I do not have any of my notes, if i ever took any. No i did not burn them but in my travelling days they were superfluous to requirements and even before, when a girlfriend read some and asked me about them, quite an embarrassment. She thought I had been in a devil cult.

I think there is a distinction between what is called 'channelling' and clairvoyance. When I first joined the Emin Peter, Leo's son, told me I would lose my natural clairvoyance. It was more or less true for a while and to me a heavy price. This natural communication interfered with the Emin business which was based on Leo's channelling and ultimately, when the ushers were lent elementals, their's.

Leo was channelling something which in retrospect was not very nice. It liked plural wives as they are called above, nymphomania for all the stern lectures on morality and whether the emins here like it or not, even allowed child abuse. That is typical of this kind of 'angel'. Not typical of Gabriel, although I have my doubts that this was the angel that came to Leo as 'Merlin'. But these astral entities do know things and from this knowledge derive power. The Chinese earthquake is a prime example - it knew it was about to happen, told Leo which thus empowered their relationship (it was always wrong about the head popping and the 'event') and Leo used this on us. But it was not quite what he had hoped for and he never mentioned it again. Not so the Intelligence Agencies spying on the Emin then who became intrigued and determined to get hold of this power.

As for the cash flow - it was obvious. Anyone who was bankrupt and then all of a sudden had hundreds of envelopes containing cash coming in was bound to have a problem. As an accountant I had seen this often enough. So it makes one vulnerable to others doing it too - you cannot exactly call the police in and tell them someone is stealing your envelopes can you? At the time Churches were changing and starting to get Bank standing orders instead of 'collections' to bring some accountability. Eventually the Emin cleaned up its act as organisations do when they want to buy property and become respectable. It is a small thing but yet another lever for the angel or elemental running things.

But someone here mentioned the Millennium prophecies of the Emin and I would love to know more about these as it was coming up to 9/11. I have no doubt that behind that atrocity was a bunch of elementals using gullible people. And really that is something the world has to deal with but cannot do so - who would vote for the man suggesting such a thing. Intelligence Agencies have also been used by these elementals and hopefully are beginning to realise that there is a pattern behind the doubl/triple false flag agents and organisations, deliberately complicating and hiding the vicious truth. Al Qaida is just one in my opinion, but a convenient one to target. You cannot bomb and shoot elementals of course and they laugh at us. Or did - now they want to make friends as the chasm before us is all to obvious and leaves them nowhere to go.

That is one of the reasons that i think Leo directed me here in fact. Having discovered how he was used this is a most appropriate forum to reveal that and try to minimise the damage.

reve x

08-09-2012, 03:31 PM
Fg you mentioned Cush. It is Kush but as with Carpiel who really knows. This cute website (for kids really) tells quite a lot about the land from which the black Pharaohs and much of Egypt's gold came, and there are many pyramids down there:

Nubia (Land of Gold): The Kingdom of Kush (also called Nubia - the Land of Gold) was located on the Nile River, to the south of ancient Egypt.

Nubia was also known as the Land of the Bow because their archers were expert and fierce. The army of archers kept the Nubian people safe. It was important for them to be strong. Many kingdoms wanted to control Nubia. Nubia was a land of natural wealth. They had gold mines, ivory, incense, and iron ore.

Unlike Egypt, they were not dependent upon the flooding of the Nile for good soil. They enjoyed tropical rainfall all year long.

Daily Life of the Common People: The common people lived in farming villages. Each village had a leader, but their role was suggestive rather than controlling. Each village worked together as a unit for the common good of the village. There was a division of labor. For the common people in ancient Kush, daily life was village life.

There was a place inside each village where the villagers would collect. And, there was a place where many villages collected. When there was a festival, the people in individual villages knew where the festival would be held if they were invited - it would be held at the place where many villages collected.

Daily Life of the Nobles: For many hundred of years, the nobles of ancient Kush thought of themselves as Egyptians. They dressed like Egyptians. Their homes were similar. The kings and nobles lived in riverside palaces. There were sailboats on the Nile. Their daily life was very much like the people they envied - the ancient Egyptians. As in ancient Egypt, many of their leaders were great Queens, not Kings.

When the capital of the Kushite kingdom was moved further south along the Nile, they began to act less like Egyptians and more like other civilizations in South Sahara Africa. Their jewelry changed. They began wearing anklets and ear studs.

Religion: In the beginning, they worshiped the same gods as did the ancient Egyptians, with a few extra thrown in like the three-headed Lion God. They mummified their dead. They built pyramids. Kush pyramids looked a little differently - they had flat tops, but they served the same purpose; they were tombs. The people of Kush loved stories from the Bible. Many became Christians because of the Bible stories they heard from passing traders.

Kush - the Iron Capital of the Ancient African World: Although they were two different kingdoms, Egypt and Kush were linked by the Nile River, by a shared past, and by the economics of the day. Kush had something other kingdoms wanted. They had iron. This time in history was known as the Iron Age. From about 1000 BCE to about 1000 CE, iron was critically important. Iron was used to make tools and weapons. Kush was the iron center of ancient Africa. Kush was also one of the major gold producers in the ancient world.

Trade: Trade was very important to Kush. They established flourishing ports on the Red Sea. They tried to work out trade agreements with Egypt that would allow them free access to the Mediterranean via the Nile River. Egyptians depended on Kush for iron, gold, and for exotic goods like incense and ebony. Kush wanted Egyptian manufactured goods, especially their cotton, an export for which Egypt is still famous today.

Supply and Demand: As the demand for iron grew, Kush ran into a problem. To make iron, they needed to wood to burn. They had used up much of their wood. Their resources were dwindling. Kush could not produce as much iron as they had in the past, yet demand for iron was growing. Traders began to look elsewhere for iron. As trade dwindled, the country began to weaken.

Kush looked around for new avenues of trade. They had incense. They had ivory. Certainly someone would want these wonderful products. The leaders of Kush began to turn their eyes towards the vast Sahara Desert. Was it possible? Could they develop a trade route to the far away kings of which they had great things?

Camels (Ships of the Desert): Around 750 CE, everything changed when Islamic traders began to use camels to transports goods across the desert. The use of camels made it possible to get from Kush to West Africa, to literally get from here to there.

The Trans-Sahara Trade Route: The day the first caravan of camels headed west into the Sahara Desert was the day that marked the opening of the Trans-Sahara Trade Route. http://africa.mrdonn.org/kush.html

Yorke seems to have forgotten about the Queens. Egyptians were not concerned about modesty and wore very little. The Queen of Sheba may well have come from here although there was another exotic country further to the South the Egyptians called Punt, which also traded incense etc.

The Location of Punt
In this section, various scholars' opinions were included on where the ancient Kingdom of Punt would have been located at, based on the information that's provided by the ancient Egyptians.

Egyptologists have long since given up on locating Punt in Arabia Felix (Yemen), or equating it with the biblical land of Ophir and its "mines of King Solomon." In fact, there was also a land route that brought the products of Punt to Egypt; the "mountain of Punt" and its auriferous pools clearly lay on the borders of Kush, in the Nile Valley of Nubia. Scholars no longer feel a need to go as far as Zanzibar or Socortra or even to Somalia in search of Punt.

The land of Punt was home to various incense-bearing trees (Boswellia and commiphera, which thrive on low rainfall), Dom-palms, and species of hard, black trees called heben in Egyptian, the origin of the word "ebony." Visitors to punt had encountered panthers, cheetahs, monkeys and baboons (the latter on dry hills), as well as giraffes and rhinoceroses, animals that dwelled in the plains. Gold also came from Punt, in the middle of summer; rain fall on the mountain of Punt only in the miraculous form of veritable deluges. These details gleaned from texts enable us to locate the famous shores of punt and their vast inter land. The land called punt included a desert region and a Sahelian region between the 22nd and the 18th longitude lines parallel to the North. The south of Punt might have included the present-day province of Kassala and the north of Eritrea. To the west and the northwest, an indefinable border separated it from Kush and the land of the Medjoi (roughly Etbaya). http://www.shabait.com/about-eritrea/art-a-sport/1533-the-land-of-punt-is-eritrea-part-ii

But there is a bit more to this relationship that that:

Dalya Alberge reports on how details of crushing defeat by another Nile superpower were kept hidden. Ancient Egyptians "airbrushed" out of history one of their most humiliating defeats in battle, academics believe.

In what the British Museum described as the discovery of a lifetime, a 3,500-year-old inscription shows that the Sudanese kingdom of Kush came close to destroying its northern neighbour. The revelation is contained in 22 lines of sophisticated hieroglyphics deciphered by Egyptologists from the British Museum and Egypt after their discovery in February in a richly decorated tomb at El Kab, near Thebes, in Upper Egypt.

Vivian Davies, Keeper of the museum's Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan, said: "In many ways this is the discovery of a lifetime, one that changes the textbooks. "We're absolutely staggered by it."

The inscription details previously unknown important battles unprecedented "since the time of the god" the beginning of time. Experts now believe that the humiliation of defeat was one that the Ancient Egyptians preferred to omit from their historical accounts.
Contemporary Egyptian descriptions had led historians to assume that the kingdom of Kush was a weak and barbaric neighbouring state for hundreds of years, although it boasted a complex society with vast resources of gold dominating the principal trade routes into the heart of Africa. It did eventually conquer Egypt, in the 8th century BC.

Mr. Davies, who headed the joint British Museum and Egyptian archaeological team, said: "Now it is clear that Kush was a superpower which had the capacity to invade Egypt. It was a huge invasion, one that stirred up the entire region, a momentous event that is previously undocumented.

"They swept over the mountains, over the Nile, without limit. This is the first time we've got evidence. Far from Egypt being the supreme power of the Nile Valley, clearly Kush was at that time.

"Had they stayed to occupy Egypt, the Kushites might have eliminated it. That's how close Egypt came to extinction. But the Egyptians were resilient enough to survive, and shortly afterwards inaugurated the great imperial age known as the New Kingdom. The Kushites weren't interested in occupation. They went raiding for precious objects, a symbol of domination. They did a lot of damage."

The inscription was found between two internal chambers in a rock-cut tomb that was covered in soot and dirt. It appeared gradually as the grime was removed. Mr. Davies said: "I thought it would be a religious text, but it turned out to be historical. Gradually, a real narrative emerged, a brand new text inscribed in red paint, reading from right to left."

The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550 BC). The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht's heroic role in organising a counter-attack.

The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: "Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw . . ." It describes the decisive role played by "the might of the great one, Nekhbet", the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as "strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire", while the "chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame".

The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies. Mr. Davies said: "That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It's the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings' power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures."

The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text "for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobeknakht". Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht's tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.

The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.

Elkab's Hidden Treasure

There may be more to Mt Yorke and his ancestors of this region than meets the eye. Certainly his Egyptian theories and dressing men up as Pharaohs is similar to how Leo treated Egypt. It is just not historically accurate.

reve x

08-09-2012, 06:01 PM
It is a fact that even with the most meticulious planning mistakes glare at one after the event. Leo had prior warning of an earthquake from his 'contact' but probably did not know what was going to happen really.

9/11 must have more conspiracy theories than most atrocities but when one looks at them all calmly in the light of day you can sort them into piles. There are those that are quite ridiculous and make all the rest look suspect. 'Not planes but missiles disguised as planes with holograms' comes to mind. There are curious facts - the men filming the event and laughing. The next door building that decided to fall down too. Perhaps the strangest of all - Al Qaida getting upset when the world was openly suggesting that the US had masterminded this and insisting they were to blame not the US or Israel. They must really be crazy. Of course there are the unfounded rumours of 4000 people not turning up to work that day and so on. But this is from wiki and is a most telling piece on prior warning. It should be easy to discover who benefitted from this but there never was much will to dig too deep as with the JFK assassination. I can imagine how angry members of the security services must have been and still are but politics rule, just as PR does in the entertainment and corporate worlds.

So who knew what was going to happen on 9/9 and 9/10 who decided to say nothing about it?

wiki: Just before 9/11 there was an "extraordinary" amount of put options placed on United Airlines and American Airlines stocks. Authorities believed, and some conspiracy theorists continue to maintain, that trading insiders may have known in advance of the coming events of 9/11 and placed their bets accordingly. An analysis into the possibility of insider trading on 9/11 concludes that:

A measure of abnormal long put volume was also examined and seen to be at abnormally high levels in the days leading up to the attacks. Consequently, the paper concludes that there is evidence of unusual option market activity in the days leading up to September 11 that is consistent with investors trading on advance knowledge of the attacks. —Allen M. Poteshman, The Journal of Business

On the days leading up to 9/11, two airlines saw a rise in their put to call ratio. These two airlines were United Airlines and American Airlines, the two airlines whose planes were hijacked on 9/11. Between September 6 and 7, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 "put" option contracts in UAL versus 396 call options. On September 10, more trading in Chicago saw the purchase of 4,516 put options in American Airlines, the other airline involved in the hijackings. This compares with a mere 748 call options in American purchased that day. No other airline companies saw anomalies in their put to call ratio in the days leading up to the attacks. American Airlines however, had just released a major warning about possible losses.

Insurance companies saw anomalous trading activities as well. Citigroup Inc., which has estimated that its Travelers Insurance unit may pay $500 million in claims from the World Trade Center attack, had about 45 times the normal volume during three trading days before the attack for options that profit if the stock falls below $40. Citigroup shares fell $1.25 in late trading to $38.09. Morgan Stanley, which occupied 22 floors at the World Trade Center, experienced bigger-than-normal pre-attack trading of options that profit when stock prices fall. Other companies that were directly affected by the tragedy had similar jumps.

Raytheon, a defense contractor, had an anomalously high number of call options trading on September 10. A Raytheon option that makes money if shares are more than $25 each had 232 options contracts traded on the day before the attacks, almost six times the total number of trades that had occurred before that day.

The initial options were bought through at least two brokerage firms, including NFS, a subsidiary of Fidelity Investments, and TD Waterhouse. It was estimated that the trader or traders would have realized a five million dollar profit. The Securities and Exchange Commission launched an insider trading investigation in which Osama Bin Laden was a suspect after receiving information from at least one Wall Street Firm. wikipedia

I have no way of knowing if any of this is true. But it is what history will make of that event and the people involved in the decision to use it to try to establish a world order and kill many innocent women and children as a result.

People are greedy and it is in the realms of possibility. Who made money on these trades and why? I guess the answer is that angels were telling their friends what to buy that day. The rest of us were worried sick about the people on the top floors, the firemen and the passengers in the aircraft. Images and feelings that will never fade.

reve x

08-09-2012, 06:18 PM
So Reve: "now standing on the shoulders of giants eh? it's a long drop. MR T.

08-09-2012, 07:17 PM
I meant to ask you whether you were going to have a look at the winged Sutekh attacking the serpent Apophis there - extremely unusual as he has a falcon's head usually reserved for his arch enemy Horus. But the desert belongs to him and the oases. There are rumours that antiquities are being looted there these days and I know you are a specialist in relocating these. I hope you are being a good boy Tor. The Temple in my view would be one of the bonuses of your posting to an otherwise unremarkable military area.

I dont know much about long drops nor climbing on the back of giants- do enlighten me.

reve x

08-09-2012, 08:50 PM
and curiously there is a programme on TV now all about 9/11 - and the dogs wont stop barking. The programme is scary enough. These attacks were dreadful and no one in charge knew how extensive they were, how many planes were involved. Communications did not work, 4000 planes were in the air, many not responding, and very difficult decisions had to be made in very little time. Not for nothing is it iconic, nor surprising that our world had to change as a result. I just hope they have identified the culprits and they dont try such a thing again.

What i do think is that TV put the fear of god into the world that day. The filming of the killing of Bin Laden was another time this TV message reached so many. However it is sadly lacking with most other atrocities. I am sure we would all feel different about the Palestinians if there was footage showing what was happening to children there and it received a similar airing. And the bombings around the world whether by suicide bombers, drones or aircraft. It is all too horrible for the human mind, while a paragraph in a paper can be forgotten. Images are harder to erase.

Now the First World War and the Holocaust put all of this in persective in terms of numbers. As a Briton I cannot help but count the cost of our declaring war on Hitler after he invaded Poland and then started bombing our cities. It is easily forgotten how many innocents were killed for that one decision, and how many saved as a result. i am sure we would do it again. But the thought that we did this to Iraq based on phoney intelligence is awful and the same game is being played out again.

i do not blame people really. It is angelic work to blind individuals, to buy their souls. So what defence do we have against this because watching this programme makes me realise that many things have changed, but as the real cause is hidden nothing essential has changed at all. There is no agency that checks out the truth of the allegations made in the world's media to brainwash electorates to vote for mind numbing policies leading to more genocide. How on earth do you get them to see that? We should have been doing this work but the Emin was derailed and I very much hope was not involved in contributing unwittingly to such horrors.

David Icke stands up and many here do this but are ridiculed. Most worry about their cosy lives. Of course they do, but men like Churchill could see how insecure those cosy lives were and did something about it. What we do not need are war mongers like Hitler and all should be taken to the ICC, with no exceptions depending whether a country has signed up. When the Nazis were hunted I dont remember that being an inhibition. And we need to make very sure in this world that we identify the real problems and people causing them. It is already too late of course but writing about it makes one feel better.

reve x

09-09-2012, 02:53 AM

*Im pretty sure they are talking about this kush though apart from the last one

Kush refers to a subset of strains of Cannabis indica. The origins of Kush cannabis are from landrace plants mainly in Afghanistan, Northern Pakistan and North-Western India [1] with the name coming from the Hindu Kush mountain range. "Hindu Kush" strains of cannabis were brought to the United States in the mid-to-late 1970s and continue to be available there to the present day.[2]

Kush strains were among those cultivated by the British firm GW Pharmaceuticals for its legally licensed commercial trial of medicinal cannabis.[3]

09-09-2012, 03:49 AM
Ricky Donnell Ross is convicted boss of cocaine empire that allegedly 'moved' $4 million a day across the whole of america.

Ross's capture was facilitated by his career-long dealer Oscar Danilo Blandon, who "set up" Ross. Blandón had close ties with the Contras, and had met with Contra leader Enrique Bermúdez on several occasions. Blandón was the link between the CIA and Contras during the Iran-Contra affair. Gary Webb interviewed Ross several times before breaking the story in 1996. Ross claims that the reason he was unfairly tried initially was because of his involvement in the scandal. Blandón received a 24-month sentence for his drug trafficking charges, and following his release, was hired by the Drug Enforcement Administration where he was salaried at US$42,000. Blandón was not a U.S. citizen/national, and is the only known foreigner not to be deported following conviction on drug trafficking charges in U.S. history. The INS was ordered to grant Blandón a green card, despite the criminal convictions, to allow him to work for the DEA. The DEA has claimed they no longer employ Blandón, and his whereabouts are unknown.[9]

Lawsuit against rapper Rick Ross

On June 18, 2010, Ross sued rapper Rick Ross (real name William L. Roberts) for using his name.[10] Freeway Ricky Ross filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Ross in a California Federal Court.[10] Jay-Z had been called to testify in the lawsuit, as he was CEO of Def Jam when Ross was signed to the label.[10] The reformed drug kingpin was looking for $10 million in compensation in the lawsuit.[10]

Also, the release of rapper Rick Ross' album, Teflon Don, was threatened to be blocked by Freeway Ricky Ross. A week after the lawsuit was filed, the rapper responded to the charges: "It’s like owning a restaurant; you’re gonna have a few slip and falls. You get lawsuits, you deal with them, and get them out of your way ... sometimes you lose."[11] He then denied rumors that he would change his name to "Ricky Rozay" as a consequence of the lawsuit.

After the lawsuit was dismissed on July 3, 2010,[12] the album Teflon Don was released as scheduled on July 20, 2010. A federal judge ruled that the case should be refiled in California state court because it fell under California state law. Ross refiled the case with the State of California and the federal case is on appeal in the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.[13] The federal case was appealed to higher court, state case was filed in 2011 in California.

Since then, Freeway Ricky Ross has refiled in Los Angeles superior court with several publicity rights claims. Depositions have been ongoing. Trial was set for early May 2012. The case has been since dismissed by a judge in the Los Angeles superior court.[14]

The California State case was updated with a motion in Freeway Rick Ross' favor as to Warner Brothers Records and their use of the name and image Rick Ross in July 2012.[15]

The rapper Rick Ross wis on the front cover of this months popular Rolling Stone magazine:


The 'Real' Rick Ross


A Denouncement of Rick Ross: From Correctional Officer to Private Prison Advertiser

Dear Mr. William Leonard Roberts II, AKA RICK ROSS

You’ve never made me feel like “Tupac’s back”. In fact, your whole image is blasphemous and sounds like you’ve been directly funded by the CIA. Couldn’t they have picked one with a more neutral background? You are an ex correctional officer now promoting the image of drug dealing in every single song, you have even high jacked the name of a notorious drug dealer and have successfully glamorized his image across borders that he could never get to. Your high energy beats, that seemingly fuel people, are suggestively influencing people to accumulate, consume and glamorize a gangster lifestyle. You have redirected our African American youths rage as far away from revolution as possible. Your purpose serves as an excessively massive distraction. Your song, By Any Means, Is a disgusting insult to humanity. You claim you are a “field nigga”, but you are just a house slave singing for master and misleading your brothers and sisters.

You are just a puppet of corporate executives, promoting fancy cars and jewelry to our brothers and sisters even if they have to sell drugs and kill for it, is not what Malcolm X was about. When will you pick up the fight against corruption instead of showing off your money accumulation to those who have nothing? How can we alleviate poverty, not how can we all become young millionaires, as if that’s possible, or drive new Benzes and brag about expensive shit most of us can’t afford.

You are not special or unique because you were a lucky one who was handed more scraps than the rest of us, and your prison guard background does not hurt! There is nothing admirable or respectable about making tons of money from misleading the youth and masses.

The Guts

(Anonymously Submitted)

09-09-2012, 08:52 AM
I am sure it is meant to be both cannabis and Kush. The world's war on drugs is like the war on terror. It costs a fortune, encourages it and is full of hypocrisy while flying in the face of common sense. Kids up here are turning up in hospital dying from eating laundry washing liquid that is made to look like jelly sweets. Cannabis will never be as dangerous as alcohol or tobacco but is demonised - then one day they will tax it like the other two which are sacrosanct although our hospitals cannot cope with the damage they do - 50%of all cancer and the rest. Pesticides etc make up most of the rest. Leo detested cannabis but glorified alcohol and tobacco.

I hope I have not upset you Tor - in fact my dad never let me climb on his back which pained him most of his life after trying to push a car out of the sand for two pretty girls. His knee was what i climbed on. If you missed that giant Sutekh there is a nice picture/sketch and explanation here:


'Butter would not melt in his mouth' Horus, our war god and Jesus prototype was the one up to dirty tricks as you can see there. Poor Sutekh was vilified although every night he speared Apophis the serpent monster strangling the earth and rescued Re' and the world population from evil. He is the true St George. It is the way the media wrote it even then - they call him the devil. 'Hawks' in Washington, London and Tehran and Jerusalem seem to be portrayed as saints while the nice protestors get a bad name as trouble makers.

The world is only upside down - the next polar shift should put it right.

reve x

09-09-2012, 12:43 PM
I suppose we might as well look at the original dragon - the Ancient Egyptian Apep, or Apophis in Greek , which is also the name of the near earth asteroid that they worry will hit us.

Wikipedia: “Apep ( /ˈæˌpɛp/ or /ˈɑːˌpɛp/) or Apophis ( /ˈæpəfɨs/; Ancient Greek: Άποφις; also spelled Apepi or Aapep) was an evil god in Egyptian mythology, the deification of darkness and chaos (ı͗zft in Egyptian), and thus opponent of light and Ma'at (order/truth), whose existence was believed from the 8th Dynasty (mentioned at Moalla) onwards. His name is reconstructed by Egyptologists as *ʻAʼpāpī, as it was written ꜥꜣpp(y) and survived in later Coptic as Aphōph.

Apep formed part of the more complex cosmic system resulting from the identification of Ra as Atum, i.e. the creation of Atum-Ra, and the subsequent merging of the Ogdoad and Ennead systems. Consequently, since Atum-Ra, who was later referred to simply as Ra, was the solar deity, bringer of light, and thus the upholder of Ma'at, Apep was viewed as the greatest enemy of Ra, and thus was given the title Enemy of Ra.
As the personification of all that was evil, Apep was seen as a giant snake/serpent, or occasionally as a dragon in later years, leading to such titles as Serpent from the Nile and Evil Lizard. Some elaborations even said that he stretched 16 yards in length and had a head made of flint. It is to be noted that already on a Naqada I (ca. 4000 BC) C-ware bowl (now in Cairo) a snake was painted on the inside rim combined with other desert and aquatic animals as a possible enemy of a deity, possibly a solar deity, who is invisibly hunting in a big rowing vessel.
Also, comparable hostile snakes as enemies of the sun god existed under other names (in the Pyramid Texts and Coffin Texts) already before the name Apep occurred. The etymology of his name ('3pp) is perhaps to be sought in some west-semitic language where a word root 'pp meaning 'to slither' existed. A verb root '3pp does at any rate not exist elsewhere in Ancient Egyptian. (It is not to be confused with the verb 'pi/'pp: 'to fly across the sky, to travel') Apep's name much later came to be falsely connected etymologically in Egyptian with a different root meaning (he who was) spat out; the Romans referred to Apep by this translation of his name. Apophis was a large golden snake known to be miles long. He was also so large, everyday, he attempted to swallow the sun.

Battles with Ra
Ra, in the form of a cat, slays the snake-like Apep
Tales of Apep's battles against Ra were elaborated during the New Kingdom. Since nearly everyone can see that the sun is not attacked by a giant snake during the day, every day, storytellers said that Apep must lie just below the horizon. This appropriately made him a part of the underworld. In some stories Apep waited for Ra in a western mountain called Bakhu, where the sun set, and in others Apep lurked just before dawn, in the Tenth region of the Night. The wide range of Apep's possible location gained him the title World Encircler. It was thought that his terrifying roar would cause the underworld to rumble. Myths sometimes say that Apep was trapped there, because he had been the previous chief god and suffered a coup d'etat by Ra, or because he was evil and had been imprisoned.
In his battles, Apep was thought to use a magical gaze to hypnotize Ra and his entourage, attempting to devour them whilst choking the river on which they travelled through the underworld with his coils. Sometimes Apep had assistance from other demons, named Sek and Mot. Ra was assisted by a number of defenders who travelled with him, the most powerful being Set, who sat at the helm.
In a bid to explain certain natural phenomena it was said that occasionally Apep got the upper hand. The damage to order caused thunderstorms and earthquakes. Indeed: it was even thought that sometimes Apep actually managed to swallow Ra during the day, causing a solar eclipse, but since Ra's defenders quickly cut him free of Apep, the eclipse always ended within a few minutes..…..

Set eventually became thought of as the god of evil, and gradually took on all the characteristics of Apep. Consequently, Apep's identity was eventually entirely subsumed by that of Set.” wiki

I would note that as Set or Sutekh was the one who did nightly battle with Apophis and harpooned him from the prow of Re’s boat, it is perverse that ‘later Egyptians’ decided to make out he was Apophis. But in long civilizations , even Greece, this is not uncommon. In Greece modern Christians now see their ancestors who worshipped the Olympian Gods as black magicians.

Also they dismiss above the etymology of the Apep name as being related to the verb ‘fly across the sky’ but if Apophis is the asteroid trying to hit us it is probably correct.

Anyway we can certainly see in Apophis the dragon of Revelations that gives power to the Beast, which of course decides that Set is evil as he is the one, harpoon in hand, ready to spear him every night. It translates also to those fallen angels who wish to destroy the sun, son of man. And as David Icke's reptilian theory clearly shows both reptilans and non-repltilians consider the others evil. In my view there is no doubt that the war gods are the evil ones, those who demand child sacrifices etc. But they do not see that as war is their 'business'.

The Dark ones always call the shiny kettle black.

Reve x

09-09-2012, 07:13 PM
Another of these interesting 'blackosophy' sects to come from New York, this one as well has everything to do with Egypt:

The Ausar Auset Society is a Pan-African religious organization founded in 1973 by Ra Un Nefer Amen for the purpose of providing members a societal framework through which the Kemetic spiritual way of life can be lived [1] and to promote Rosicrucian values. [2] [3]

It is based in Brooklyn, New York, with chapters in several major cities in the United States as well as international chapters in London, England, Toronto, Canada and Bermuda, West Indies. The organization provides afrocentric-based spiritual training to the African American community in particular and to the African diaspora in general. The religion uses elements of Ancient Egyptian religion such as the Tree of Life (Paut Neteru) as the basis of its cosmogony and philosophical underpinning.


Ausarian religion

According to the Ausarian theology of ancient Egypt, the symbol for realizing the divine potential is Ausar (known in English by the Greek name Osiris). A means through which this realization can be achieved is through meditation which is symbolized by Auset (Isis). These principles are embodied in the story of Ausar. In the story, the Supreme Being manifested itself in the world as Ausar, who rules through adherence to the divine law of Ma'at. Ausar’s younger brother Set becomes jealous and murders him, cuts his body into several pieces and usurps the throne. Ausar’s devoted wife Auset gathers the parts of her husband’s dis-membered body and magically conceives their son, Heru (Horus). Heru eventually overthrows his evil uncle Set with the aid of Tehuti (the deity representing Wisdom) and reclaims the throne, and thereafter rules the land of the living while Ausar rules the land of the deceased (underworld). A version of the story can be found in The Egyptian Book of the Dead. There is also a version of the story in Awakening of Osiris: The Egyptian Book of the Dead. The Egyptian Book of the Dead, along with The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts and the Book of Knowing the Creations of Ra and Overthrowing Apep form the scriptural frame of reference for Ausar Auset Society teachings.

Central to the Ausarian religious system are the 11 Divine Laws which have been extrapolated from the Tree of Life. A full explanation and analysis of each of these Laws can be found in Amen's book Ma'at, The 11 Laws of God. An important theme of this book is that the essence of these 11 Laws must be programmed into the Spirit of the individual through specific meditation techniques. Impressing these Laws upon the spirit will ensure that an individual's identity is with his or her true Self when he or she is confronted with a challenging situation rather than with the false self-image that gives control over to the emotions.

A proper understanding for the cultivation of the 11 Laws consists of the following:[4]

All activities in the universe are carried out by energy.
The Spirit is the energy component of God and all beings.
Energy everywhere in the universe is governed by laws, as proven by science.
As an entity of energy, Man’s Spirit which is in charge of the realization of all events in her/his life—physiological and social—is controlled by laws.
God’s and Man’s Spirit carries out all activities in the world through 11 modalities (faculties) of energy.
Each of the 11 modalities of energy is regulated by its own law.
These laws, which are stored in the Divine division of Man’s Spirit, must be transferred into the mind to guide the Life-Force.
As a result, success, health, and the treasures of a spiritual life can be acquired.

Another important concept that is integral to the teachings of Ausar Auset Society is that Man's entire Being is a composite made up of the Self and the Not-Self, as both are required in order to exist in the physical world. An individual's true identity, however, is the Self which consists of Consciousness and Will (Not-Self consists of Energy and Matter) as there is no energy or matter in Man's true Self. Since Spirit is considered Not-Self, Man's true Self cannot be Spirit. Also, every thought, emotion and sensation belongs to the Not-Self and generally represents a manifestation of the Animal Spirit in Man. The Animal Spirit, along with the Mental Spirit and the Divine Spirit, represents a triune view of Man's Being. The Divine Spirit, which is pre-programmed with Divine Law, corresponds to Man's true Self while both the Mental Spirit (Man's intellect and reasoning ability) and the Animal Spirit correspond to the Not-Self. Therefore, failure to control one's emotions, for example, represents a submission to the animal part of Being as well as a waste of one's Life Force.

Egyptian Yoga and the Glorious Light Meditation
(originally written in November 2010)

I have recently come across Dr. Muata Ashby's works (see Sema Institute website) and got three of his books a couple of months back to examine his Kamitic system. What I have found from his translations of hieroglyphic texts from the ancient time is that the people of Kamit (Egypt) were practicing a form of spiritual meditation that is still practiced today in some yogic, buddhist and daoist circles. The Ra Akhu Uaah (Glorious Light Meditation) was commissioned by the Sage Pharoah Seti I and according to Dr Ashby, this meditation practice in Kamit preceded meditation in India by at least 800 years. Here we are talking about 1350 BCE (Tomb of Seti I).

My personal opinion is that the reason why an identical meditation technique has been practiced by the Shemsu Hor and those who they influenced, the Mahasiddis of India, Nepal & Tibet and the Daoist adepts is because all three groups were influenced by the Neteru. This meditation, the Ra Akhu Uaah is from the initiation teachings of the beings from the Sirius constellation.

Today if you look at the teachings of the Yoga sutras of Patanjali, tantric yoga, the teachings of Mahamudra and Dzogchen (buddhism) and those of the daoists (Golden Flower Meditation), you find that all systems look to obtain the "Clear light of Bliss" that results from correct practice. This "clear light" is the same as the "Glorious Light" inscribed in stone by the Kamitic adepts. So the translations of the inscriptions by Seti I are really valuable. The practices are identical right down to the meditation sitting postures and approach.

Afrikans have 2 main ancestral lineages to tap into with respect to spiritual practices. There is the lineage that comes from our traditional spiritual practices of the various Afrikan ethnic groups and there is the lineage that comes from human beings of the earlier time or from the Neteru. I think Ausar Auset realized this, which is perhaps why both Kamitic and traditional Afrikan elements have been put together in their spiritual practices in an attempt to reconcile both lineages. This is only an opinion from outside observation since I am not a member of Ausar Auset but have friends who are and I have seen some of their materials.

The "top-down" practice originally comes from Divine Providence (Odomankoma) and has been practiced by the Neteru in their system, and here more so in the cultures of earlier times but this still goes on today. The "bottom up" spiritual practices (what have often been classified under the umbrella name "shamanism") originally comes from the tutelage and guidance of nature spirit beings that have served as a link between Divine Providence (Odomankoma) and human beings. The "top down" system uses internal alchemy, meditation and breathwork while the "bottom up" system uses song/incantation, dance, visions and psychic means. Both systems have their rituals and practices of varying complexity and in the orient one can even find cases where top-down and bottom-up versions have been successfully integrated by some daoist lineages. If Ausar Auset is successful in their approach, they will have something like this too for Afrikans.

For most Afrikans (unless you are one of the Neteru among us or one of their direct children!) the "bottom up" ancestral line is quite likely the stronger of the two and the more "recent line" since our recent ancestors have been practicing traditional Afrikan spiritual practices for millenia after they moved out of the middle East and Kamit. This is a very interesting topic that has genetic as well as energetic implications. The "top-down" teaching is however also of our line, since it is of the Ptah-Ra-Hetheru-Djehuti line, which is one reason some may choose to cultivate their links with Kamit.

Below is a translation of the Ra Akhu Uaah from Muata Ashby's book:

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Translation of the Hieroglyphic text of the Glorious Light Meditation
(from the book "Glorious Light Meditation" by Dr. Muata Ashby)

"Whosoever shall recite the words, here written,
with conscious awareness of Djehuty {mind with clear and keen intellect**
shall perform the rituals of sevenfold purification over 3 days {the seven psychospiritual centers**
which are to be performed in the Divine presence,
when this book is being read {studied, recited, remembered** (1)
And they shall make their position in a circle which is beyond them,
And their two eyes shall be focused upon themselves,
All their members shall be composed [relaxed, motionless]
And their steps shall not carry them away [from the place of meditation] (2)
Whoever among men shall recite [these] words
Shall visualize themselves as RA
On the day of his birth
And their awareness shall not become contracted
And his house shall never fall into decay
But shall endure in truth and righteousness
For eternity


(1) -- Posture and Focus of Attention

Posture is one of the main components of the meditation practice. The text prescribes
a sitting position within a circle. Then it instructs that there should be a focusing of
the mind between the eyebrows. This area is also known as the sixth energy-consciousness
center. All members of the body, the arms, legs, etc. Should be motionless.

Posture: Be seated in a comfortable posture. You may create a circle figure in which to sit or
simply visualize that you are seated within a circle. See yourself at the center of the circle
which comprises the Sundisk of Ra, and see yourself as the source of all that is. The place you
use for meditation should be clean and free from drafts, dimly lit (preferably use a candle to
symbolize the innerlight. Incense may be used also. Use a mat, sitting comfortably with back
straight. This special area should be used only for meditation and you should practice at the
same time daily.

[Meditation postures: cross legged, half or full lotus sitting position;]

Introduction to the Seven-fold Cleansing; the Serpent Power and the Teaching of the Life Force:
(pg. 124)

The concept of the Serpent Power, a Life Force contained in the subtle body of a human being that
operates through the nervous system of the subtle spine and which has seven primary foci of energy
consciousness comes down through Ancient Kamitan history from the Great Sphinx to the teaching of
the Asarian Resurrection and is iconographically expressed central shaft of the balance scales of
Maat, in the pillar of Asar and in the Caduceus of Djehuti by the divinities Asar (his backbone)
and the two serpent goddesses Aset and Nebthet. The movement of the Serpent Power/Life Force is
described by the special text (see book "The Serpent" by Muata Ashby). The Sefekh Ba Ra (energy
centers) or "seven souls of Ra" wherein Life Force energy and consciousness are transformed from
subtle to gross energy for use by the body are seven in number.

Continuation of the Translated text of the Glorious Light Meditation

The words of power of the scripture and the
chant are a special protection {against
unrighteousness and negativity**. Through the
words of power "Nuk Hekau" { I am the Divinity
of the Word** the divinity purifies in the two
months of Ra {phenomenal/transcendental** gods
and goddesses such that "Nuk Ra Akhu" {I am Ra's
Glorious Spirit [Light]**. As Ra, I move in the
evening and the day as a shining Spirit {living
(in light) and not in death (darkness). Enemies
of the light {Unrigheousness, darkness, ignorance,
vices, etc** fall because Nuk Ba Ra Hekau {I am the
soul of Ra, the Divine Word, that transforms (into
the Shining Spirit [The Glorious Light])


(2) -- Words of power

The papyrus instructs that after having read and recited the story one should assume a specific posture
and adopt a specific visualization. The story of the papyrus (Destruction of Humankind) is as follows:

Ra (Supreme being) created the world and human beings.
After many years they became arrogant and spoke evilly
about him. They forgot about his greatness and about their
own origins. Ra decided to punish them for their egoism and
sinful behaviour and so he sent out his eye of destruction ['death star', causing the 'flood'...my emphasis]
in the form of Hetheru to kill all sinners. He then recalled
his eye before it could kill all human beings and then he
retreated to heaven where he traverses in the form of the
sun and installed his vicar to watch over the world during
the night in the form of the moon.


(pg. 140)
Formal meditation in Sema (Yoga) consists of some basic elements: Posture, Sound (chanting words
of power), Visualization, Rhythmic Breathing (calm, steady breath). The instructions, translated
from the original hieroglyphic text contain the basic elements for formal meditation.

Basic Instructions for the Glorious Light Meditation System
Given in the Tomb of Seti I
(c. 1350 B.C.E.)

1. To be practised by clergy and lay alike
2. Listen to the mystical teaching in the myth of Hetheru and Djehuty
3. Be purified physically by proper hygiene (with Nile flood water (cleanest); wear proper clothing
4. Be purified by Maat (righteousness, truth, non-violence, non-stealing, non-killing etc.)
5. Sevenfold Cleansing for 3 days - Serpent power - transcend the 3 forms of mental expression
6. Posture and focus of attention - make the body still, concentrate on yourself
7. Words of power-chant

Nuk Hekau (I am the word itself - that purifies)
Nuk Ra Akhu (I am Ra's Glorious Shinning Spirit - Divine Light)
Nuk Hekau (I am the God who creates through Sound)

8. Visualization - see yourself in the center of the Sundisk (circle of Ra); see yourself as Ra (Mystic Union)

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________


Pg 144
Sefekh Ba Ra (The Seven Souls of Ra) or Sefekh Uadjit (Seven Serpent Goddesses)

The 7 Energy Centers

1) SEFEKHT - Corresponds to the first energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Muladhara Chakra)
Also known as Sheshat, it is the root center (chakra) which is located at the base of the spine

2) TEKH - Corresponds to the second energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Swadhishtan Chakra)
It is in the area of the organs of procreation whiere, if controlled by the higher centers, cosmic
energy may be absorbed and transmuted to create more than just physical offspring.

3) AB(OB) -Correcponds to the third energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Manipura Chakra)
Its location is in the solar plexus.

4) KHEPER - Corresponds the the fourth energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Anahata Chakra)
Its location is at the heart

5) SHEKHEM - Corresponds to the fifth energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Vishudi Chakra)
It is the throat chakra, the Chakra of Medu Neter (divine speech).

6) MER - Corresponds to the sixth energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Ajna Chakra)
It is the third eye, the level of intuitive wisdom that does not require "thinking or mind process".

7) IKH - Corresponds to the seventh energy-consciousness center (Indian-Sanskrit: Sahasrara Chakra)
It is the energy consciousness level where the dualistic mind symbolized by Apophis and the "life giving
fire" (primal energies), becomes united into one whole.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________

February 2011

One may notice strong Sirian and Reptilian influences in the material above. The actual purpose of the meditation systems inherited from Lemuria which were also found in lands the Sirians strongly influenced (Egypt, Inca, Maya, Mesopotamia and Yu/Gobi desert) is to activate the physical-ethereal vehicle using a series of techniques that eventually lead to the acquisition of spiritual abilities. This is one way to go about it. Indigenous people may not have such sophisticated methods however their spiritual techniques also work. In their original contexts, indigenous denizens also built mud huts and other such abodes rather than sophisticated buildings however both types of buildings can shelter an indweller.

Apophis is mentioned there near the end reve

09-09-2012, 07:32 PM
Leo loved them. Many people will quote Gurdjieff and Crowley as though they are the original documents. The first writing in Egypt was on stone palettes, if the oldest papyri did not survive, the texts carved on the 5th Dynasty pyramids did and form the 'Egyptian Book of the Dead'. Not an accurate translation. It is vital to look at the real texts to know what happened. Above they mention Heru (Horus) overcoming his 'evil uncle Set' with the help of Tehuti/Djehwti/ Thoth. Thoth came out of the head of Set/Seth/Sutekh in fact and after Heru's dirty tricks and cheating poor Set went to live with Re/Ra and left Hor to his wars.

Here is an original text courtesy of the great Egyptologist Budge:

The Book of Apep


The Book of Overthrowing Apep,

also known as,

The Book of Knowing the Evolutions of Ra

(Extracted from Budge, The Gods of the Egyptians, vol. 1, pp. 308-21)


The book of knowing the evolutions of Ra, and of overthrowing Apep. The words of Ner-er-tcher [which] he spake after he had come into being. I am he who came into being in the form of Khepera, I was (or became) the creator of what came into being, the creator of what came into being all; after my coming into being many [p.309] [were] the things which came into being coming forth from my mouth. Not existed heaven, not existed earth, not had been created the things of the earth, (i.e., plants) and creeping things in place that; I raised up them from out of Nu (i.e. the primeval abyss of water) from a state of inactivity. Not found I a place I could stand wherein. I worked a charm upon (or, with) my heart. I laid a foundation in Maā [and] I made attribute every. I was alone, [for] not had I spit in the form of Shu, not [p.310] had I emitted Tefnut, not existed another who worked with me. I made a foundation in my heart my own (or, by means of my own will) [and] there came into being the multitudes of things which came into being of the things which came into being from out of the things which came into being of births, from out of the things which came into being of their births. I, even I, had union with my clenched hand, I joined myself in an embrace with my shadow, I poured seed into my mouth my own, [p.311] I sent forth issue in the form of Shu, I sent forth moisture in the form of Tefnut. Saith my father Nu, "They make to weak my eye behind them, because for double henti periods they proceeded from me after I became from god one gods three, that is from out of myself, [and after] I came into being in earth this. Were raised up therefore Shu [and] Tefnut in the inert watery mass wherein they were, brought they to me my eye in their train. After therefore I had united my members [p.312] I wept over them, [and[ came into being men and women from the tears [which] came forth from my earth, [and] it raged against me after it came and found [that] I had made another in its place. [I] endowed it with the power (or, splendour) which I had made. Having made to approach therefore its place in my face, afterwards therefore it ruleth earth this is to its whole extent. Fall their moments (or, seasons) upon their plants, I endowed it with what it hath taken possession of in it. I came forth from (or, in the form of) the plants, [p.313] creeping things all, [and] things which came into being all [are] in them. Give birth Shu and Tefnut [Seb] and Nut. Give birth Seb and Nut to Osiris, Horus-Khent-an-maati, Set, Isis, Nephthys from the womb, one after the other of them, they give birth [and] they multiply in earth this.


The book of knowing the evolutions of Ra, [and] of overthrowing Apep. The words of Ner-er-tcher. He says:

[p.314] "I was (or, became) the creator of what came into being. I came into being in the form of Khepera coming into being in primeval time. I came into being in the forms of Khepera. I was (or became) the creator of what came into being, that is to say, I produced myself from the primeval matter [which] I made. I produced myself from primeval matter. My name is Osiris, the primeval matter of primeval matter. I have done my will all in earth this, [and] I have spread abroad in it; I raised up [p.315] my hand. I was alone; not born [were] they. Not had I spit in the form of Shu, not had I emitted Tefnut I brought into my mouth my own name, that is to say, a word of power, and I, even I, came into being in the forms of things which came into being, and I came into being in the forms of Khepera. I came into being from the primeval matter, coming into being [in] multitudes of forms from the beginning. Not existed created things any in land this; I made whatsoever was made [p.316] everything. I was alone, not existed [any other] who worked with me in place that I made what I made therein by means of divine soul that [which] I raised up therein out of Nu (i.e., the primeval abyss of water) from a state of inertness, not found I a place whereon I could stand. I worked with the spirit [which] was in my heart, I laid a foundation in my heart, I made came into being, and manifold were the things which came into being of Khepera [p.317] came into being what they gave birth to out of the creations of their offspring. I, even I, spat in form of Shu, [and] I emitted Tefnut, [and] I became from god one three gods, that is to say, from myself two gods came into being on earth this. Were raised up therefore Shu and Tefnut in Nu (i.e., the primeval abyss of water) wherein they were. Behold. my eye brought to me they in the train of henti periods they proceeded from me. I collected my members, they came forth from myself [p.318] after I had union with my clenched hand, came to me (?) my heart (or, will) out of my hand. The seed which fell into my mouth, I spat in the form of Shu, I emitted water in the form of Tefnut, I became from [being] god one gods three, that is to say, from myself two gods came into being on earth this. Were raised up therefore Shu and Tefnut in Nu (i.e., the primeval abyss of water) wherein they were. Saith [p.319] my father Nu, "They covered up [or, made weak] my eye after them [with] bushes, twice, for hen periods." Vegetation and reptiles [came] from the god Rem, from the tears [falling] from me. Cried my eye, came into being mankind. I endowed it with power. It raged at me after it came [finding] another growth within its place. Fell its vigorous power upon its bushes, upon the bushes [which] I placed there to make adornment in it. [p.320] Ruling therefore [on] its seat in my face it ruleth the whole earth. Gave birth Shu [and] Tefnut to Nut, Osiris, Horus-Khent-an-maati, Set, Isis, Nephthys [and] behold, their children they create beings of children, from the beings of their children. They invoke my name, they overthrow their enemies, they create words of power for the overthrow of Apep, who is to be bound by the the two hands [p.321] of Aker, not may be his two hands, not may be his two feet, may he be chained to one place even as inflicteth Ra his blows decreed for him. He is overthrown on his back wicked, slit is his face for what he hath doe, and he remaineth upon his back evil.

[A description of the same book from Budge, The Literature of the Ancient Egyptians, p. 150. The above is part of a much larger work which contains several chapters, the first being the 'Festival Song of Isis and Nephthys,' the second 'The Lamentations of Isis,' the third being the book above. This centres on the Creation of the world by Ra, and the destruction of Apep, or Darkness, by the Light.]

The BOOK OF APEP, the great enemy of the Sun-god. Apep was the god of evil, who became incarnate in many forms, especially in wild and savage animals and in monster serpents and venomous reptiles of every kind. He was supposed to take the form of a huge serpent and to lie in wait near the portals of the dawn daily, so that he might swallow up the sun as he was about to rise in the eastern sky. He was accompanied by legions of devils and fiends, red and black, and by all the powers of storm, tempest, hurricane, whirlwind, thunder and lightning, and he was the deadly foe of all order, both physical and moral, and of all good in heaven and in earth. At certain times during the day and night the priests in the temple of Amen-Ra recited a series of chapters, and performed a number of magical ceremonies, which were intended to strengthen the arms of the Sun-god, and give him power to overcome the resistance of Apep. These chapters acted on Apep as spells, and they paralysed the monster just as he was about to attack the Sun-god. The god then approached and shot his fiery darts into him, and his attendant gods hacked the monster's body to pieces, which shrivelled up under the burning heat of the rays of the Sun-god, and all the devils and fiends of darkness fled shrieking in terror at their leader's fate. The sun then rose on this world, and all the stars and spirits of the morning and all the gods of heaven sang for joy. The complete text of this book is found in a long papyrus dated in the reign of Alexander II in the British Museum (No. 10,188).

reve x

09-09-2012, 07:49 PM
Crowley had the nerve to write the Book of Thoth, which is often quoted as being some rediscovered ancient text. It is in fact nonsense but dont say that aloud to his disciples.

" wiki:The Book of Thoth : A Short Essay on the Tarot of the Egyptians is the title of The Equinox, volume III, number 5, by English author and occultist Aleister Crowley. The book is recorded in the vernal equinox of 1944 (an Ixviii Sol in 0° 0' 0" Aries, March 21, 1944 e. v. 5:29 p.m.) and was originally published in an edition limited to 200 numbered and signed copies.

This book describes the philosophy and the use of Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, a deck of Tarot cards designed by Crowley and co-designed and painted by Lady Frieda Harris. The Thoth Tarot has become one of the best-selling and most popular Tarot Decks in the world.

The original 200-volume edition was bound in Morocco leather and printed on pre-wartime paper. Crowley sold ₤1,500 worth of the edition in less than three months. wiki"

So many religions rewrite Egyoptian religion to suit themselves. There is no ancient original Egyptian text telling uis the tale of Osiris, Isis, Set, Nepthys and Horus - the 5 siblings. It was assumed by Egyptian scribes that everyone knew the story. What we have was given to us by the Greeks complete with Greek names like Osiris (Wsir) Isis (Auset) etc. But remember no one knows for sure what vowells they used. Apep could have been Papa. The Greeks picked up most of their Egyptian knowledge thousands of years later when Egypt was Greek/Roman.

Leo on this "Do not ever mention Isis and Osiris to me again. I am the only person alive to know about them and it relates to my Trio" (in my own words perhaps wh can remeber more!)

reve x

09-09-2012, 07:51 PM
dont stop - you seem to be opening doors no one knew were there. I find this all very interesting and am most surprised about these angelic modern religions.

all the best

reve x

09-09-2012, 09:29 PM
There was a little clip of Ra Un Nefer Amen briefly mentioning the Jay-Z/Illuminati thing though he doesn't say much (it is the part at the end which is subtitled) and mentions the rap community has a power of salvation that should be used responsibly.

RA UN NEFER on God, HipHop, Jay Z illuminati , Saviours, metu neter - YouTube

I found an interesting song by Jay-Z and the aforementioned Rick Ross (who uses the the image of notiorious kingin to glorify a criminal lifestyle - the song is called Free Mason and it seems Jay-Z is refuting the Illuminati claim (in song)

Free Mason Lyrics:

[Rick Ross Intro]
This is for the soldiers the see the Sun at midnight, ya dig?
Let me slow down

[Rick Ross Verse]
I go to the grave before I be a bitch nigga
Better behave, you're dealin' with some rich niggas
We the lost symbols, speaking cryptic codes
Ancient wisdom, valuable like gifts of gold
I embark on life, my path is all math
I understand the codes these hackers can't crack
I understand that folks expect me to fold
Community control to violate parole
I won't fail, but a lot of men will
I'm iconic in the field, like Solomon's Seal
Uh, it's just an intro
Allow my flow time to sink into the tempo (or temple)
Free Mason, freelancer
Free agents, we faster
Big contracts, big contractors
Built pyramids, period we masters
No caterpillars, it was just a lot of niggas
A lot of great thinkers and a lot of great inventors
All white mansion - I'm the child of God
All black diamonds - times were hard
New Rolls Royce - Guess you made it, nigga?
All white neighborhood - You they favorite nigga
My car top back like J.F.K.
They wanna push my top back like J.F.K.
So, so I J.F.K.
Joined Forces with the Kings and we ate all day
Right now I could rewrite history
I stopped writing so f*** it, I'll do it mentally

[Rick Ross & John Legend Chorus (x2)]
I go to the grave before I be a bitch nigga
Better behave, you're dealin' with some rich niggas
Started in the ghetto, now we worldwide
Multiplying and I pray to God we never die

[Jay-Z Verse]
Niggas couldn’t do nothing with me they put the devil on me
I would have preferred if niggas would squeeze the metal on me
Rumors of Lucifer
I don’t know who to trust
The whole world wants my demise, turn the music up
Here me clearly
If y’all niggas fear me, just say y’all fear me
F*** all these fairy tales
Go to hell this is God engineering
This is a Hail Mary past y’all interfering
He without sin shall cast the first stone
So y’all check in the mirror, double check your appearance
I said I was amazing
Not that I’m a Mason
It’s amazing that I made it through the maze that I was in
Lord forgive me I never would’ve made it without sin
Holy Water, my face in the basin
Diamonds in my rosary shows he forgave him
B*** I’m red hot
I’m on my third six but the devil, I’m not
My Jesus piece flooded but thou shall not covet
Keep your eyes off my cupboard
I’m a bad motherf*****
it’s 'Hov just say you love it


[Outro Vocals John Legend]
If I ever die, never let it be said I didn't win
Never, never say
Never say Legend didn't go in
I just wanna die on top of the world
Makin' love to my favorite girl
Makin' beautiful music, we makin' a movie
We knew we was born to do it

A little interesting fact is that he (jay-z) also calls himself HOV, HOVA or Jay Hova

10-09-2012, 12:56 PM
He was the most fascinating man as his story here attests, even Mike the Museum cat would agree. He traces Osiris back to African religions so perhaps the rappers are right! I make no apology for long paste. i read today that Leo had the ability to learn a language in minutes and that Peter Sellers was in the Emin. Not true, Peter's son and Spike Milligan's wife were however. But perhaps true of this man

wiki:E.A. Wallis Budge was born in Bodmin, Cornwall to Mary Ann Budge, a young woman whose father was a waiter in a Bodmin hotel. Budge's father has never been identified. Budge left Cornwall as a young man, and eventually came to live with his grandmother and aunt in London.

Budge became interested in languages before he was ten years old, but given that he left school at the age of twelve in 1869 to work as a clerk at the firm of W.H. Smith, it was only in his spare time that he studied Hebrew and Syriac, with the aid of a volunteer tutor named Charles Seeger. Budge became interested in learning the ancient Assyrian language in 1872, when he also began to spend time in the British Museum. Budge's tutor introduced him to the Keeper of Oriental Antiquities, the pioneer Egyptologist Samuel Birch, and Birch's assistant, the Assyriologist George Smith. Smith helped Budge occasionally with his Assyrian, whereas Birch allowed the young man to study cuneiform tablets in his office and obtained books of Middle Eastern travel and adventure such as Sir Austen Henry Layard's Nineveh and Its Remains for him to read from the British Library.

From 1869 to 1878 Budge spent whatever free time he had from his job at W.H. Smith studying Assyrian, and he often walked down to St. Paul's Cathedral over his lunch break to study during these years. When the organist of St. Paul's, John Stainer, noticed Budge's hard work, he decided to help the boy to realize his dream of working in a profession that would allow him to study Assyrian. Stainer contacted W.H. Smith, a Conservative Member of Parliament, and the former Liberal Prime Minister William Ewart Gladstone, and asked them to help his young friend. Both Smith and Gladstone agreed to help Stainer to raise money for Budge to attend Cambridge University, where Budge later studied Semitic languages, including Hebrew, Syriac, Ethiopic and Arabic from 1878 to 1883, continuing to study Assyrian on his own. Budge worked closely during these years with the famous scholar of Semitic languages William Wright, among others.

Career at the British Museum

Illustration by Budge from "Egyptian Ideas Of The Future Life", published 1908.
Budge entered the British Museum in the renamed Department of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in 1883, and though he was initially appointed to the Assyrian section, he soon transferred to the Egyptian section, where he began to study the ancient Egyptian language with Samuel Birch until the latter's death in 1885. Budge continued to study ancient Egyptian with the new Keeper, Peter le Page Renouf, until Renouf's retirement in 1891.

Between 1886 and 1891, Budge was deputed by the British Museum to investigate why it was that cuneiform tablets from British Museum sites in Iraq, which were supposedly being guarded by local agents of the Museum, were showing up in the collections of London antiquities dealers. The British Museum was purchasing these collections of their own tablets at inflated London market rates, and the Principal Librarian of the Museum, Edward Bond, wished Budge to find the source of the leaks and to seal it. Bond also wanted Budge to establish ties to Iraqi antiquities dealers to buy whatever was available in the local market at much reduced prices. Budge also travelled to Istanbul during these years to obtain from the Ottoman government a permit to reopen the Museum's excavations at these Iraqi sites in order to obtain whatever tablets remained in them.

During his years in the British Museum, Budge also sought to establish ties with local antiquities dealers in Egypt and Iraq so that the Museum would be able to obtain antiquities from them without the uncertainty and cost of excavating—a decidedly 19th century approach to building a museum collection. Budge returned from his many missions to Egypt and Iraq with enormous collections of cuneiform tablets, Syriac, Coptic and Greek manuscripts, as well as significant collections of hieroglyphic papyri. Perhaps his most famous acquisitions from this time were the beautiful Papyrus of Ani, a copy of Aristotle's lost Constitution of Athens, and the Tell al-Amarna tablets. Budge's prolific and well-planned acquisitions gave the British Museum arguably the best Ancient Near East collections in the world, and the Assyriologist Archibald Sayce remarked to Budge in 1900, ". . . What a revolution you have effected in the Oriental Department of the Museum! It is now a veritable history of civilization in a series of object lessons . . ."

Budge became Assistant Keeper in his department after Renouf retired in 1891, and was confirmed as Keeper in 1894, a position in which he remained until 1924, specializing in Egyptology. Budge and the other collectors for the museums of Europe regarded having the best collection of Egyptian and Assyrian antiquities in the world as a matter of national pride, and there was tremendous competition for Egyptian and Iraqi antiquities among them. These museum officials and their local agents smuggled antiquities in diplomatic pouches, bribed customs officials, or simply went to friends or countrymen in the Egyptian Service of Antiquities to ask them to pass their cases of antiquities unopened. During his tenure as Keeper he was noted for his kindness and patience in teaching young visitors to the British Museum. He was one of only two people that Mike the famous cat of the British Museum would allow to feed him.

Literary and social career

Budge was also a prolific author, and he is especially remembered today for his works on ancient Egyptian religion and his hieroglyphic primers. Budge's works on Egyptian religion were unique in that he maintained that the religion of Osiris had emerged from an indigenous African people: "There is no doubt", he said of Egyptian religions in Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection (1911), "that the beliefs examined herein are of indigenous origin, Nilotic or Sundani in the broadest signification of the word, and I have endeavoured to explain those which cannot be elucidated in any other way, by the evidence which is afforded by the Religions of the modern peoples who live on the great rivers of East, West, and Central Africa . . . Now, if we examine the Religions of modern African peoples, we find that the beliefs underlying them are almost identical with those Ancient Egyptian ones described above. As they are not derived from the Egyptians, it follows that they are the natural product of the religious mind of the natives of certain parts of Africa, which is the same in all periods."

Budge's contention that the religion of the Egyptians was essentially identical to the religions of the people of northeastern and central Africa was regarded by his colleagues as impossible, since all but a few followed Flinders Petrie in his contention that the culture of Ancient Egypt was derived from an invading Caucasian "Dynastic Race" which had conquered Egypt in late prehistory and introduced the Pharaonic culture.

Budge's works were widely read by the educated public and among those seeking comparative ethnological data, including James Frazer, who incorporated some of Budge's ideas on Osiris into his ever-growing work The Golden Bough. Budge was interested in the paranormal and believed in the reality of spirits and hauntings. Budge had a number of friends in the Ghost Club (British Library, Manuscript Collections, Ghost Club Archives), a group in London committed to the study of alternative religions and the spirit world, and told his many friends stories of hauntings and other uncanny experiences. Many people in his day who were involved with the occult and spiritualism after losing their faith in Christianity were dedicated to Budge's works, particularly his translation of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which was very important to such writers as the poet William Butler Yeats and James Joyce. Budge's works on Egyptian religion have remained consistently in print since they entered the public domain.

Budge was a member of the literary and open-minded Savile Club in London, proposed by his friend H. Rider Haggard in 1889, and accepted in 1891. He was a much sought-after dinner guest in London, his humorous stories and anecdotes being famous in his circle, and it is hardly surprising that the low-born Budge was fascinated not only by the company of literary men, but also by that of the aristocracy. He sedulously sought the company of the well-born, many of whom he seems to have met when they brought to the British Museum the scarabs and statuettes they had purchased while on holiday in Egypt. Budge never lacked for an invitation to a country house in the summer or to a fashionable townhouse during the London season.

Though his books remain widely available, translation accuracy has improved in detail, along with significant revisions in dating, since Budge's day. The common writing style of his era—a lack of clear distinction between opinion and incontrovertible fact—is no longer fashionable in scholarly works.

Budge was knighted in the 1920 New Year Honours for his distinguished contributions to Egyptology and the British Museum. In the same year he published his sprawling autobiography, By Nile and Tigris. He retired from the British Museum in 1924, and lived on until 1934, continuing to publish book after book. His last work was From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt (1934).

Lady Wallis Budge Junior Research Fellowship

In his will, Budge established the Lady Wallis Budge Junior Research Fellowships and graduate scholarships at Cambridge and Oxford Universities that continue to this day to support young Egyptologists at the beginning of their research careers.

In popular culture
The novelist H. Rider Haggard dedicated his novel Morning Star (1910) to Budge.
Budge is mentioned briefly in the movie Stargate as the author of several outdated books on Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Budge is frequently mentioned......

reve x

10-09-2012, 10:21 PM
Well well, and he was against the grain of Petries theories?

The 'fishy' rapper took the to the stage at the closing of the paralympics last night, many where not pleased by the look of it:

(from Metro)
The Paralympics closing ceremony brought a lump to the throat and a tear to the eye as it celebrated the end of the London 2012 Games, so what exactly were Jay-Z and Rihanna doing there?

As the soundtrack to the Paralympics – and one of the few current UK acts who have achieved worldwide domination – it made sense that Coldplay should be chosen to perform on the night.

Indeed, tracks like Yellow and Paradise sounded as if they had been written especially to be played as some inspirational sporting achievement took place.

But where exactly did a US rapper and Bajan pop singer fit into this? The answer is they didn’t.

They may have been a crowd-pleasing addition but their contributions seemed bafflingly out of place especially after the preceding three ceremonies, which had proudly promoted the best of all that British music and culture had to offer.

True, it made a change from the ubiquitous Emeli Sande and organisers had insisted there was no theme to this show but ceremony director Kim Gavin said himself that he had been inundated by offers from several high-profile acts to play.

Surely, he could have picked a British artist from one of those?

If anything, the special guests made it seem like an extended Coldplay concert or recycled Hackney Weekend gig. Both Ri-Ri and Jay-Z headlined the BBC Radio 1 festival earlier this year, which was put on as part of the Olympics.

On a night like last night where you could unashamedly bask in the collective glory of being British, this was the only bum note of the Paralympics closing ceremony.

Now where’s Jessie J when you need her?

Rihanna sang from a giant swing which rings a bell but cant tell which one

I would think it is a power/publicity thing again, Jay Z is no stranger to performing at the big UK pblicised shows - ever since becoming the first rap act to perform and headline at Glastonbury during the surrounding controversy of a public argument with the Mancheser Gallagher boys from Oasis - Noel said that having Hip Hop at Glastonbury is 'wrong'

(Guardian 2008)

The rapper Jay-Z's position at the top of the Glastonbury bill has notoriously riled the likes of Noel Gallagher of Oasis, who implied it was the sort of thing that would never have happened in his heyday. 'I'm sorry, but Jay-Z? No chance,' guitarist Gallagher complained in April. 'Glastonbury has the tradition of guitar music ... I'm not having hip-hop at Glastonbury. It's wrong.'

Last night, before an adoring crowd, Jay-Z gave his response. As he took to the legendary Pyramid stage, vast video screens played images of Gallagher's criticism of the rapper, triggering a massive chorus of jeers aimed at the Mancunian guitarist. That was only the beginning. The rapper's opening track was a cover of Wonderwall, arguably Oasis's most famous track. Some sang along, most just chanted the rapper's name. 'How good was that intro?' said Liz Walters, 25. 'He's amazing.'

The next tour de force was a cover of Rehab by Amy Winehouse. 'For those that didn't get the memo my name is Jay-Z and I'm pretty fucking awesome,' hollered the triumphant rapper.

Earlier, ticket holders at the 150,000-strong event had suggested that Gallagher, 41, was out of touch and 'did not know what he was talking about'. Many were excited to hear that Jay-Z, the first rapper to headline in the event's 38-year history, planned to launch his set by broadcasting Gallagher's comments.

'Glastonbury is not just about white men with guitars,' said Jess Carter, as she trudged through the thick, sticky mud left over from Friday's heavy rain. Smiling as the sun finally came out, her friend Rohan Sethi, 17, said he expected the artist to put on the 'best show ever.'

From the fields filled with back-to-back tents to those lined with stages, market stalls and bars, many felt the same way. 'Jay-Z is not like your typical gangster rapper,' argued Rupert Acton, 26, an aspiring hip-hop artist. 'He is the best in the world.'

Hugo Driscoll, a 16-year-old who was desperately searching for his friends, added: 'Who is the better role model? Jay-Z or Amy Winehouse?'

Others said they would not be watching the artist but were still glad he was headlining. 'There are different types of music and it is good that they are showcasing them here,' said Londoner Atticus Pappin, 17.

But others were less ready to welcome the star. 'Rock is the essence of this festival,' said Anil Ahir, 43, a production director. 'Jay-Z is not the man for the job. Put him on a smaller stage, but not the Pyramid.'

Others were less moderate. Lewis Armstrong, 18, and his friends planned to shout abuse at the American. 'There has been tension brewing,' he said.

The controversy around Jay-Z appearing as the headline act at Glastonbury has been going on for months, ever since the line-up was announced. The decision to stage him has been blamed for the fact that tickets for the festival failed to sell out well in advance for the first time since 1992.

Gallagher added his voice to the storm but the rapper has since hit back: 'When someone makes a judgment like that, they are kind of ignorant. Yeah, I've heard Noel's music but I've never seen him or Oasis play so I can't say whether his show is rubbish. Until I see him perform I can't really give an opinion of him, but I don't think he has ever seen me perform - I should send him a ticket.'

Plans by the artist to broadcast Gallagher's comments during his live set were dismissed by the Oasis guitarist, who also criticised the sound system. Yesterday, he was reported as saying: 'Blaring out? I fucking doubt it. There aren't enough speakers. Well, I guess it'll make the first five minutes interesting.'

Meanwhile, festival organiser Michael Eavis revealed yesterday he has been plagued by sleepless nights amid fears that this year's event was set to make a £5m loss, with tens of thousands of tickets still not sold in the run-up to the festival. 'I was really, really scared,' he said. 'I woke up at three in the morning sweating. I'm not joking.'

Eavis thought it would be the first time in years the festival would not be able to offer £2m to charity. But on Friday, tickets finally sold out.

James Turner, spokesman for Greenpeace, said: 'We were a little worried about sales because Michael's generosity to charity is dependent on the number of people buying tickets.' But, by the end of last night, the charity donation was safe and Jay-Z was the undisputed star of Glastonbury 2008.

The recently converted to rastafarian Snoop Dogg (who says he is reincarnation of Bob Marley) filled his shoes at glastonbury two years later and caused another stir:

Many of his songs are appallingly sexist. So why is feminist Julie Bindel such a fan of Snoop Dogg's music – and what did she make of his set?

The crowd roars, the bass is so deep it hurts my chest. Snoop Dogg, resplendent in white singlet and a giant knuckleduster that spells out his name in diamonds, gyrates his way to the centre of the Pyramid stage. He has a voice like honey dripping on rose petals, he raps like a demon – and he pours out his bile all over women.

All around me, young female fans submit to his music, waving spliffs and splashing cider on their burning flesh. Singing along to lyrics peppered with derogatory words about women, they seem wholly unperturbed by Snoop's reputation as a former pimp who refers to women as bitches and hos. But oh, how charismatic he is on stage, with that split-second delivery and those easy, natural moves. No other music gets my blood flowing faster than hip-hop, and Snoop is the best of the bunch. Now, here comes the contradiction.

I have loved Snoop's music for almost 20 years and first saw him live in the mid-1990s, on stage in the US with other male rappers all playing macho, grabbing their crotches and showing off their pecs. Now I am at Glastonbury purely to see Snoop – and yet I have spent my adult life campaigning to end violence against women, in particular the abuse of women and children in prostitution. So just what am I doing here? And why do I love his music?

On the train to Glastonbury, the youngsters at my table asked each other which bands they were most looking forward to seeing. "Florence and the Machine," said one. "Vampire Weekend," said another. "Snoop Dogg," I mumbled. All their mouths dropped open at once. I am not most people's idea of a Snoop fan.

A former gang member from one of LA's most notorious neighbourhoods, Snoop Dogg (so named by gang members because his hairstyle resembled the ears of Snoopy from the Peanuts cartoon strip) has served time for drug dealing, been acquitted of the murder of a gang member, and made a series of pornographic films called Girls Gone Wild Doggy Style. The first feminist campaign I was involved in was against the abuse of women within the porn industry, back in 1979. But where many folk love Snoop because of his hate-filled Gangsta lyrics, I try to separate his fantastic voice, rhythm and timing from his verbal tirades against women.

The first album I bought was Doggystyle in 1993, followed by Tha Doggfather three years later. I realised the lyrics were pornographic and grotesque but so, I told myself, were many sung by white boys in tight jeans in the 1970s. After all, I used to sing along to Claire by Gilbert O'Sullivan, assuming it was about a man who had a major crush on a woman, only to discover later that he was singing about an uncle's love for his young niece. Tom Jones's Delilah was one of my favourite karaoke turns, until someone pointed out it was about a man who kills his girlfriend because she has "provoked" him by having an affair.

When I first heard Snoop's songs I hated the fact that so many were peppered with the "n" word, as well as the obligatory "bitch", "ho" and "motherfucker" – but I chose to ignore the lyrics. One day, my partner walked in when I was blasting out Snoop's Tha Last Meal ("Shootin' the breeze, with a cute Vietnamese/or was she Lebanese? I think she Chinese/It really don't matter cause they all on they knees") and asked me to turn it off. I put Snoop away and became a secret, occasional listener, dusting off Doggfather only when I was alone in the house.

At Glastonbury, Snoop appears to be choosing his songs carefully. When he introduces Beautiful ("Beautiful, I just want you to know, You're my favourite girl"), which he dedicates to "all the ladies in the house", it sounds so lacklustre that half the crowd stop dancing. Soon, though, he is back on form, but unfortunately with a rap in which he tells us that women are asking to be fucked. And yet I find myself shouting along with the crowd as Snoop demands: "What's my motherfucking name?" Why am I pandering to this man who has such apparent contempt for women, not to mention an ego bigger than his entire crowd's?

Well, I am not the only feminist who loves Snoop's music. Bridget Irving, defence lawyer and radical feminist, tells me she is jealous I am going to see him perform. "His music is brilliant," she says, "and he laughs about himself. But I hate all that woman-hating shite." Fellow Guardian writer and feminist Cath Elliott also admits that she "adores" Snoop's rapping. "You should ask him what his problem is with women," she says, "but his music is fabulous."

There is, indeed, nothing inherently sexist about hip-hop and rap. My passion for it began in the early 1980s, with the release of Wordy Rappinghood by the Tom Tom Club. The cutting-edge beat was such a breath of fresh air after the noise of punk and fluff of glam rock. By the time Salt-N-Pepa, an American hip-hop trio from New York, came on the scene in 1985, I was hooked – and many a feminist music lover lauded All Hail the Queen, by the wonderful Queen Latifah. Here were women singing about real life rather than slush, and giving the men a run for their money. Latifah's track Ladies First (with Monie Love) became a feminist anthem.

Very quickly, though, female rappers became marginalised and overtaken by the pure brutality of their male counter-parts. As with Hollywood, those who received the most attention in the hip-hop world were those who portrayed violence, hate and bloodshed. And so rap has become a musical genre by and for men; a boy's club in which they can abuse and degrade women.

At the Pyramid stage, things are hotting up. Snoop breaks into 1800 from his latest I can hear the odd "bitch" and "ho" but, thankfully, can't make out the rest of the lyrics. As I dance along, I pray he won't do the song Pimpin Aint EZ. He doesn't.

After the set, I ask some young women whether Snoop's lyrics put them off him. "I think he is being ironic," says Maria. "No way does he think that about women." "It's just his showing off," says Christina. "He is laughing at himself." Hannah, however, disagrees: "He hates women and thinks of us all as sluts and whores. It comes across very clearly." But all the women say they love his music.

In the UK, most rap and hip-hop is consumed by white people, but produced and performed by artists of African-Caribbean descent. Looking around the Glastonbury crowd, I can pick out only one black person among thousands. The racist stereotypes of black men as hyper-masculine misogynists and homophobes are exploited in the marketing of gangsta rap, leading to accusations that it is "worse" than other musical genres in its attitudes to women and gay people – ironic, considering some of the sentiments expressed in hard rock.

Snoop, though, has a reputation for pushing the boundaries even further than contemporaries such as Dizzee Rascal and P Diddy. But of all the deeply controversial gangsta rappers, he is also probably the most charming and has the best sense of humour. Maybe that's why he gets away with it.

Nevertheless, like Hannah, I really believe Snoop hates women. I will not spend another penny on his music until he has a Damascene conversion, admits he has been a misogynistic creep, and donates a percentage of his profits to end violence against women (I'm not holding my breath). He has given countless young men the permission to view women like he does – as worthless sex objects – and for that I despise the man behind the mic, no matter how good a musician he is.

With the show over, I leave the site: feet blistered, neck sunburned, badly dehydrated – but with Snoop's beats still resonating. At the exit, a young woman tells a security guard, "I am due on stage in 15 minutes, and have to dress as a dolphin first." Then at the station, waiting for the train back to London, I notice former Lib-Dem MP Lembit Opik, dressed like a homeboy, asleep in the waiting room. Glastonbury, it seems, allows us to display a side of ourselves that is usually kept under wraps.

And Snoop brings up Obama in a publicity confrerence earlier today:

During a press conference at the Toronto International Film Festival for his documentary Reincarnated, Snoop Lion (as hip hop star Snoop Dogg now calls himself, since embracing Rastafari and reggae music) told reporters he fully backs President Barack Obama in his bid for re-election.

"Let me begin, Obama for four more years, man," Snoop said. "Bush fucked up for eight years, so, I mean, you gotta at least give [Obama] eight years. He cleaned half the shit up in four years, realistically. It ain't like y'all gave him a clean house. Y'all gave him a house where the TV didn't work, the toilet was stuffed up – everything was wrong with the house," he said, drawing laughs from the roomful of media.

"So he had to come in and get your thing together, then he knocked down our most hated, the most wanted, the one who had our terror on orange or red or whatever color it was on – he went and found him, the one Bush couldn't seem to find, the one who seemed to fly away in the dead of night and all that," he continued, referring to Osama bin Laden.

Obama "went and found him and knocked him down, so don't forget about that. Now everybody is peaceful and able to move and go and have a good time – it's because he made that happen. So please don't forget that. You understand me? So give him [another] four years to get his thing together and finish this deal out. You heard what Clinton said. You loved Clinton, didn't you?"

In his film, Snoop Dogg notes he never had suitable material as a rapper to get invited to perform at the White House. With his new clean lyrics and ringing endorsement of Obama . . . maybe now?

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/snoop-lion-endorses-obama-20120910#ixzz266gtSizY

11-09-2012, 05:42 AM
So Andy Murray shows what he is made of. Leo and Orman have both stated that one should stand up and be counted, especially when down. This applies to our 99% of decent people in this world but it is difficult when the 1% psychopathic element are pointing guns at our heads..

California is the home of Hollywood and this state has now made illegal any protest against Israel as it deems all such protests to be ‘anti-semitic’. I think they must be trying to tell us all just how bad it has got when one cannot stand up and protest against rampant injustice and double standard hypocrisy without facing being thrown in prison with the black supremacist gangs that seem to run them..

Only around 5% of Israelis seem to read that brave old newspaper Haaretz which still dares print the truth and take a liberal stand on Israeli and world affairs. Most are decent people there who want good lives and are privately irritated by the treatment of the second class citizens in their midst, or in camps under their apartheid regime. But as the heroine Israeli Jewish journalist Amira Hass shows they will not be treated well if they do stand up, and how brave are those ‘who love Iran’. This is the awakening of this world.

Rupertt Murdoch has lost a lot of credibility in Britain which still loves his newspapers. But it is at the important end that he is losing. Politicians no longer wish to be seen to be towing his line. Other newspaper magnates need to take note of the changing times. I think this is a very telling remark by another magnate:

“wiki: In February 2012, Adelson told Forbes magazine that he is "against very wealthy ­people attempting to or influencing elections. But as long as it's doable I'm going to do it. Because I know that guys like Soros have been doing it for years, if not decades. And they stay below the radar by creating a network of corporations to funnel their money. I have my own philosophy and I'm not ashamed of it. I gave the money because there is no other legal way to do it. I don't want to go through ten different corporations to hide my name. I'm proud of what I do and I'm not looking to escape recognition”

Sheldon is the 79 year old billionaire casino owner who like Soros (82) came from a working class Jewish family and has risen by sheer hard work and brilliance to amass a 25 billion fortune. Soros appears to have mad e his fortune by investing in currencies and is famously called the man who broke the Bank of England, forcing devaluation on the pound I believe and doubtless Britain needing to sell off its gold reserves at the lowest price gold achieved, another massive loss for the hungry mouths here if not the tax exiles. The two men are competitors in a sense

“wiki: Originally a Democrat, Adelson became a Republican as his wealth increased. "Why is it fair that I should be paying a higher percentage of taxes than anyone else?" he once asked. He began making major contributions to the Republican National Committee following clashes with labor unions at his Las Vegas properties.
Adelson has heavily criticized the Obama administration saying "What scares me is the continuation of the socialist-style economy we've been experiencing for almost four years. That scares me because the redistribution of wealth is the path to more socialism, and to more of the government controlling people's lives….”

While Soros:

“wiki: Soros was not a large donor to US political causes until the 2004 presidential election, but according to the Center for Responsive Politics, during the 2003–2004 election cycle, Soros donated $23,581,000 to various 527 groups dedicated to defeating President Bush. A 527 group is a type of American tax-exempt organization named after a section of the United States tax code, 26 U.S.C. § 527.
After Bush's re-election, Soros and other donors backed a new political fundraising group called Democracy Alliance, which supports progressive causes and the formation of a stronger progressive infrastructure in America.
In August 2009, Soros donated $35 million to the state of New York to be ear-marked for under-privileged children and given to parents who had benefit cards at the rate of $200 per child aged 3 through 17, with no limit as to the number of children that qualified. An additional $140 million was put into the fund by the state of New York from money they had received from the 2009 federal recovery act.
On October 26, 2010, Soros donated $1 million, the largest donation in the campaign, to the Drug Policy Alliance to fund Proposition 19, that would have legalized marijuana in the state of California if it had passed in the November 2, 2010 elections.wiki“

“ wiki:In 2007, Adelson made an unsuccessful bid to purchase the Israeli newspaper Maariv. When this failed, he proceeded with parallel plans to publish a free daily newspaper to compete with Israeli, a newspaper he had co-founded in 2006 but had left. The first edition of the new newspaper, Israel HaYom, was published on July 30, 2007.
According to a Target Group Index (TGI) survey published in July 2011, Israel HaYom, which unlike all other Israeli newspapers is distributed for free, became the number-one daily newspaper (on weekdays) four years after its inception. This survey found that Israel HaYom had a 39.3% weekday readership exposure, Yedioth Ahronoth 37%, Maariv 12.1%, and Haaretz 5.8%. The Yedioth Ahronoth weekend edition was still leading with a 44.3% readership exposure, compared to 31% for the Israel HaYom weekend edition, 14.9% for Maariv, and 6.8% for Haaretz. “

Free newspapers and free educational trips for young people can be a mighty force for good of course, depending on the education offered. Both men are philathropists. Soros has helped under privileged children in South Africa and New York for example, but also many others. Adelson has also given many millions to charities.

Rupert Murdoch is 81 and of Scottish and Irish ancestry. I think the ancestry of all the most powerful men in the world may be significant but is certainly not the overriding factor. They are from every background imaginable but have something in common - a hard work ethic and drive to succeed.

“wiki: Murdoch's reputation and influence have been noted, both positively and negatively.
According to the 2011 list of Forbes richest Americans, Murdoch is the 38th richest person in the US and the 106th-richest person in the world, with a net worth of $8.3 billion.
Murdoch has been listed three times in the Time 100 as among the most influential people in the world. In May 2012, Forbes ranked him as the 24th most powerful person in the world.”

These are the people that we need to help us bring in an enlightened age. They all mean well and are driven, but perhaps their eyes are not open to the hardships of the people at the bottom as they operate and live at the top. It must be offensive for any Jewish person to read of Israel likened to the societies that persecuted them. But in recent years it has moved so fast to this position it is breathtaking.

Everyone in this world who wants a messiah to come means well. But the methods they employ to bring that about can be very dubious. Building a temple in Jerusalem is a signal for world war and suffering, and really always has been but successive generations of priests in many religions have preached that this is the only way it can happen, and they are to blame, not their gullible congregations. The ancient prophecies fit much better with an ‘enlightened age’ and a ‘revelation or apocalypse’. One man is not going to achieve that, and certainly sacrificing animals on an altar is far from what is needed.

The ‘angels’ on then other hand have for generations wanted this control over the world as the empires they have built have squabbled and decayed. But ask an angel about this now and you will find they have a very different game plan. Unfortunately it is taking a long time to put in action and a lot of venerable older men (I am one) are taking some convincing having spent a life time pursuing an ‘event’. This was Leo and the Emin and so many others, some written about here. I hope David Icke’s Wembley event attracts massive media attention for all the right reasons and helps move the world to open its eyes. But every little post in a place like this helps, every conversation and ‘fact’. We just have to be a bit braver collectively, as the empire was when the little boy pointed out that the emperor was naked and all had to agree. Was he a little messiah? No just a little boy who could see what he could see and knew no reason not to say it in innocence. The fairies are not to be taken too seriously when selling clothes you cannot see, woven from very expensive materials you have to pay for. These are nuclear weapons and many other things that we pay for endlessly without any good result when we really need to be making sure everyone gets fed today and our nature is cared for in a time of great planetary upheaval.

Reve x

11-09-2012, 05:50 AM
I see you are also up at the crack of dawn! I have to admit that as a Glastonbury oldie I did not want to see rap take over, but i was wrong and that is why Michael Eavis runs the most successful musical event - he is more open and aware. Reading the above I can see that people are also aware of what is right and wrong with these great men of rap. Yes I think they should have been at the Olympics - This is Hackney/Tower Hamlets man. A thank you to the local inhabitants and a chance for them to think aboujt it all too.

Have a great day

reve x

11-09-2012, 08:29 AM
boat is leaking like a sieve. Now Japan and China are rattling sabres over an island, China and the UJS are doing the same over the China Sea, Argentina seems to want to start the war over the Falklands island again, next it will be Spain over Gibraltar. What is wrong with these people? There will be a huge US naval display/exercose in the Gulf soon which is to 'warn' Iran from whose shores it will be visible. But the Iranians tend to swarm big boats with hundreds of very fast small boats. When they do this to the exercise, who will shoot first? Will the US risk their aircraft carriers being torpedoed by the little hornets coming at them? I seem to recall them shooting down an airliner there last time they got nervous, and that started a rash of civil aircraft bombings.

Do they have to do this? Yes someone wants a world war so that they can build a temple and others want one too so they can sell more bombs. It is a bright sunny day in Scotland as we celebrate our own David knocking down his Goliath - but it is sport and tonight football not tennis. That is how the two rival religions take each other on here too these days. Cant the US send a football team to Iran, winner plays Israel?


reve x

11-09-2012, 10:47 AM
i was reading yesterday some posts about the Emin tarot and how Leo painted his first pack with his son's paintbox, then drew them on the flooor with his group - something I saw him do at Winscombe Street developing into the Frownstrong and Gemrod packs etc. Leo was convinced of an Egyoptian ancestry for this. He should have learned Ancient Egyptian and studied the texts but that was not his way. in fact merlinisis in an earlier post here mentioned finding the gemrod pack card on a cave wall shown to them by some mysterious Egyptian when they visited the pyramids. i would love to know more. The posts I was reading mentioned Tagir and how Leo was still not happyy with the pack.

this is more on the actually 15th century tarot and the myths (tarot is Torah etc)

"wiki: Court de Gébelin asserted that the primitive worldwide civilization had been advanced and enlightened. He is the intellectual grandfather of much of modern occultism. His centers of focus are the familiar ones of universal origins of languages in deep time and the hermeneutics of symbolism. While his views on hermeneutics and religious matters were largely conservative, his original ideas and research on the origin of language earn him a place among pioneers of linguistics. Court de Gébelin presented dictionaries of etymology, what he called a universal grammar, and discourses on the origins of language. his volumes were so popular he republished them separately, as Histoire naturelle de la parole, ou Précis de l'Origine du Langage & de la Grammaire Universelle ("Natural History of Speech, or a Treatise on the Origins of Language and of Universal Grammar"), in Paris, 1776.

With regard to mythology and symbology, he discussed the origins of allegory in antiquity and recreated a history of the calendar from civil, religious, and mythological perspectives.

[edit] The tarot

De Gébelin in an essay included in his Le Monde primitif, analysé et comparé avec le monde moderne ("The Primeval World, Analyzed and Compared to the Modern World"), volume viii, 1781. The chapter on Tarot with which his name is indelibly associated is a single section in his vast compendium that he published in series from 1773, to a distinguished list of subscribers, headed by Louis XVI.

It was his immediate perception, the first time he saw the Tarot deck, that it held the secrets of the Egyptians. Writing without the benefit of Champollion's deciphering of the Egyptian language, Court de Gébellin's developed a reconstruction of Tarot history, without producing any historical evidence, which was that Egyptian priests had distilled the ancient Book of Thoth into these images. These they brought to Rome, where they were secretly known to the popes, who brought them to Avignon in the 14th century, whence they were introduced into France. An essay by The Comte de Mellet included in Court de Gebelin's Monde primitif is responsible for the mystical connection of the Tarot's 21 trumps and the fool with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. An essay appended to this gave suggestions for cartomancy; within two years the fortune-teller known as "Etteilla" published a technique for reading the tarot, and the practice of tarot reading was born."

wiki on 'Monde Primitif'

We must be serious and not assume that old nonsense is genuine

reve x

11-09-2012, 12:27 PM
I have had readings with good old fashioned playing cards, which predate the tarot and I have also in the past used such cards to illustrate readings I have given. Gypsies at one time were much more likely to use these than a tarot but in our new age tarot has taken off.

this is the history of playing cards:

"wiki: Playing cards were invented in ancient China. They were found in China as early as the 9th century during the Tang Dynasty (618–907). The first reference to card games in world history dates from the 9th century, when the Collection of Miscellanea at Duyang, written by Tang Dynasty writer Su E, described Princess Tongchang (daughter of Emperor Yizong of Tang) playing the "leaf game" in 868 with members of the Wei clan (the family of the princess' husband). The Song Dynasty (960–1279) scholar Ouyang Xiu (1007–1072) asserted that playing cards and card games existed at least since the mid-Tang Dynasty and associated their invention with the simultaneous development of using sheets or pages instead of paper rolls as a writing medium. The first known book on cards called Yezi Gexi was allegedly written by a Tang era woman, and was commented on by Chinese writers of subsequent dynasties.

By the 11th century, playing cards could be found throughout the Asian continent.:309 During the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644), characters from popular novels such as the Water Margin were widely featured on the faces of playing cards.:132

Ancient Chinese "money cards" have four suits: coins (or cash), strings of coins (which may have been misinterpreted as sticks from crude drawings), myriads (of coins or of strings), and tens of myriads (a myriad is 10,000). These were represented by ideograms, with numerals of 2–9 in the first three suits and numerals 1–9 in the "tens of myriads". Wilkinson suggests that the first cards may have been actual paper currency which were both the tools of gaming and the stakes being played for, as in trading card games. The designs on modern Mahjong tiles likely evolved from those earliest playing cards. However, it may be that the first deck of cards ever printed was a Chinese domino deck, in whose cards all 21 combinations of a pair of dice are depicted. In Kuei-t'ien-lu, a Chinese text redacted in the 11th century, domino cards were printed during the Tang Dynasty, contemporary to the first printed books. The Chinese word pái (牌) is used to describe both paper cards and gaming tiles.

Introduction into Europe

Further information: Tarot

Playing cards first entered Europe in the late 14th century, probably from Mamluk Egypt, with suits (sets of cards with matching designs) very similar to the tarot suits of Swords, Staves, Cups and Coins (also known as disks or pentacles), and which are still used in traditional Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese decks. The first documentary evidence is a ban on their use in 1367, Bern, Switzerland. Their presence is attested in Catalonia in 1371. Wide use of playing cards in Europe can, with some certainty, be traced from 1377 onwards.

The Mameluke deck contained 52 cards comprising four "suits:" polo sticks, coins, swords, and cups. Each suit contained ten "spot" cards (cards identified by the number of suit symbols or "pips" they show) and three "court" cards named malik (King), nā'ib malik (Viceroy or Deputy King), and thānī nā'ib (Second or Under-Deputy). The Mameluke court cards showed abstract designs not depicting persons (at least not in any surviving specimens), though they did bear the names of military officers.

A complete pack of Mameluke playing cards was discovered by Leo Mayer in the Topkapı Palace, Istanbul, in 1939. This particular complete pack was not made before 1400, but the complete deck was matched to....wiki"

And here is a bit on cartomancy although i gave the cards my own meanings:

" wiki: Cartomancy is fortune-telling or divination using a deck of cards. Forms of cartomancy appeared soon after playing cards were first introduced into Europe in the 14th century.[1] Practitioners of cartomancy are generally known as cartomancers, card readers, or simply readers.

Cartomancy is one of the oldest of the more common forms of fortune-telling. It is similar to tarot card reading in that various card spreads are used, such as single card, "Destiny Square," and 3 cards. The tarot can also be used in cartomancy.

Cartomancy using standard playing cards was the most popular form of providing fortune-telling card readings in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. In English-speaking countries, a standard deck of Anglo-American bridge/poker playing cards (i.e., 52-card, four-suit set) can be used in the cartomancy reading; the deck is often augmented with jokers, and even with the blank card found in many packaged decks. In France, the 32-card piquet playing-card deck was, and still is, most typically used in cartomancy readings, while the 52-card deck was, and still is, also used for this purpose. (A piquet deck is with a 52-card deck with all of the 2s through the 6s removed. This leaves all of the 7s through the 10s, the face cards, and the aces)

The most popular method of cartomancy using a standard playing deck is referred to as the Wheel of Fortune. Here, the reader removes cards at random and assigns significance to them based in the order they were chosen. Though the interpretation of various cards varies by region, the common significators for the future are as follows:

Most Common Interpretations in Cartomancy

King of Hearts A Fair Man
King of Clubs A Dark Man
King of Spades Widower
Queen of Hearts An Unmarried Woman
Queen of Hearts (alt)A Blonde Woman etc


The interpretations of the meanings of different cards even within the same deck varies greatly among cartomancers. This raises doubt in the idea that there is some objective message coming directly from the cards, as might be necessary for amateur cartomancers to derive use from them. Most parapsychologists would argue that the card reader's psi faculties ought to play a significant role in determining both how the cards land and how they are interpreted - making the lack of an objective standard irrelevant. The lack of a shared understanding of card meanings hinders both verification - wiki"

I would do my reading on the assumption that my instinct could use the appropriate cards to help me out with my own clairvoyance. but my meanings were different because I had different needs so my King of Hearts meant someone who was in control of his emotions however did not reveal all his cards. Five of diamonds represented fate, five of clubs inhibition or mechanical breakdown etc. They helped provide interesting and accurate assessments but are not the basis for true clairvoyance. However people like to see things and cards can have a miraculous way of appearing, although most cards sharps easily manipulate them.

reve x

11-09-2012, 01:57 PM
I hear the protests - The tarot is the great esoteric secret, the great teaching machine. Do i not know that the Juggler is juggling the planets and that the searcher stands in his own patch of diamonds? That here is the great Hierophant No 5?

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush - such sayings are just as great. perhaps much greater as they are not shrouded in esoteric non-speak. Codes that only the initiated can understand. From a life time of meeting tarot initiates and 'learned' ones i have come to the conclusion that they learn very little but believe they have the key to all knowledge. As do students of the Torah which may be the only connection between the two.

Knowledge if it is any good is accessible, not shrouded in mystery. Stick a knife in someone's back and you are quite likely to kill them - any child knows that. And there is a price to pay for doing it. Use a voodoo doll to do this and it is much the same only the price is worse and you will be caught.

If a Tarot pack is dedicated to for example Crowley, or Leo or Frownstrong then you are putting yourself in unknown hands - in the hands of the spirits who inspired them which are mostly bad may I say - when you rely on them for learning or teaching. Pictures of death and hanged men are not very nice are they, and are used to terrify those who are given readings. Imagine you take a young person and offer them a Tarot reading - the first card you uncover is 'death'. 'Ah' you say 'that does not mean you will die that is an occult code'. Damage done - not nice - odds are 21-1 that will happen with the major arcana packs.

If you rely on them for your clairvoyance just whose clairvoyance are you relying on? Better much better to develop your very own independently. No one ever found enlightenment in a tarot pack, just the delusion that they might.

Custer is on TV again, he has been on it in a variety of films for weeks. This one was the 'Great Sioux Massacre'. I mentioned before that Custer was brought in to protect the settlers who had invaded the land given by treaty to the Sioux. These settlers were a blood thirsty lot and killed any Sioux in their way, especially those who objected to gold extraction from the sacred burial grounds. So we repeat history and make all the same mistakes. Yes the US army won eventually after suffering great losses, but it was the hollow victory of broken promises and evil subduing good.

What do you think would happen if they found gold or oil in Gibraltar? Well whatever the people living there or in the Falklands thought would not matter. Warships and bombers would appear in no time. But it is not oil in the West Bank - it is a future temple. How mad is that to die over? But we will see countless coffins returning to countries around the world over this at this rate.

reve x

11-09-2012, 04:19 PM
More to read than usual today! I will just post this here as it is all over facbook from the celbrity wroshippers - Rhianna's new tattoo - an Isis with huge wings.

Ahead of her appearance at closing ceremony in London on Sunday night, Rihanna tweeted out her latest piece of ink, in honor of her late grandmother, who passed away earlier this summer. She posted the topless photo to her Instagram, proudly displaying her latest tat, which is of the goddess Isis and is located under her breasts. She wrote, "Goddess Isis- Complete Woman - Model for future generations- #GRANGRANDOLLY - always in and on my heart #1love.

Isis, according to Egyptian mythology, was worshipped by the lower classes, the oppressed and artists as the "ideal mother and wife as well as the patron of nature and magic." Rihanna's grandmother was a big part of her life until her death. She passed away in July after a lengthy battle with cancer and was buried later that month in Barbados.

While she had been wearing a sheer red top during her VMA performancelast Thursday, the ink wasn't visible that night. But it was noticeable underneath her sheer top on Sunday night when she took the stage alongside Coldplay and Jay-Z.

The picture is a bit risque but click here to see: http://rapfix.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/rapfix/2012/09/rihanna-tattoo.jpg

11-09-2012, 05:36 PM
are a bit permanent - a decision you make that lives with you. i dread to think what tattoos the men have and where.

i am being a bit mean with the tarot. Of course death is a prominent part of our lives, so is the devil that Leo called the green man but to an Emin that was as bad if not worse. And the tower struck by lightning, it happens to towers. And men with big swords and an evil gaze who are called justice in this world. Men hanging from ropes are still hanging from ropes in Iraq if nor Britain, except the many who do it to themselves, but many countries like to have a death row. The moon was also an uncomfortable card for an emin. We could have cards for car crashes and nightmares, wars and starvation, concentration camps and Hell. But i personally do not like to see these in the hands of readers who are usually consulted about love lives - the lovers can even be distressing for them. Infidelity happens on a massive scale in this world, is very unfair and causes massive damage and 10% of our births.

Isis was unfaithful to her husband Osiris and had an affair with her sister's husband Set. She had a baby a long time after the death of her husband using his corpse and magic (so she would have us believe) and the result was Horus our god of war, known to us as Jesus when he is sitting on his mother's knee which is the classic Egyptian image and Christian borrowing from the myth. The mother of Jesus would also have us think that he was born of magic. Osiris is now said to be the God of the dead and reincarnation. Set did not kill him - he and the elders of their country offered Osiris a casket that he could not resist. It was temptation and Osiris succumbed and climbed into it of his opwn choice. The lesson was that we should not be ruled by omnipotent kings who could not resist deifying themselves grandiosely, but by our collective elders, called the Judges in the first 400 years of Israel's supposed history before they succumbed to the temptation of having a king back. All kings had been ritually killed when crops failed or when they showed their first grey hairs, so it was not a job many wanted anyway. Osiris was just showing his age. his name Wsir probably is the root for vizier, or king and Africa certainly is his birthplace. The chief with the power of life or death over all and usually many wives and cattle, but not necessarily wise or good, just descended from the last one, if not the man or chief who killled him and took over.

It must also be added that just as we are all descended from the sea snake, we are all descended from the black men walking upright in Africa. That does not make the sea snake or black man either less or more than the white, red or yellow man. We are all one race - there is no difference between us we are just like birds of a different colour, in fact closer related than the different species of birds that evolved, or different dog breeds descended from the wolf. But tell that to a Zionist or Malachi Yorke or Hitler's team. What is unfair is that so many of our black youth live in total deprivation in inner cities from day one, treated like criminals daily and penalised for wanting the wealth flaunted by the white kids in the expensive suburbs. Ditto the Palestinians in camps. The slaves of old and the slaves of new. Who in that situation would not dream of revolution and real 'justice' can you really blame them - have you ever been in their overcrowded flats? Redistribition of wealth is an abhorrent idea to governments but they have all played monopoly and know it is unfair to start with different amounts of money. It is only hypocrisy, self interest and religion that allows that not to be translated to the reality of what is around us. One nation should not be starving while another exploits its resources either. We all know this but it is not taught in school is it - just on the street.

The card missing in the Tarot is the 'very unfair' card - Life as it is.
reve x

11-09-2012, 06:12 PM
I hope Xi Jinpeng turns up and is the next Chinese leader. His father who was imprisoned in one of Mao’s purges of the men who put him in power was a great man. This is from wiki about him. And this it is suspected is what the current party members worry about with his son. He is due to be elected to the leadership but all of a sudden is missing presumed ‘out of favour’ although they said initially he hurt his back swimming’

Wiki: “Xi is remembered for his friendship to with colleagues, his tolerance to diverse cultures and religion, his idealism of an open market socialist country and his integrity in his beliefs. He was one of the few senior level leaders who voted during the 1980s for open reform and was sidelined after leading reformers fell from power. Xi also condemned the decision to use force to suppress the student demonstrations in Tiananmen Square in 1989.[11] China's state-run media has avoided the issue of Xi and the problems he may present for his son Xi Jinping, who is the current member of the Politburo Standing Committee and the Vice President of the People's Republic of China.”

Netanyahu is still furious about his war. He had a go at the US ambassador. This is from the New York Times. What he is really saying is that he knows he cannot attack Iran himself, his planes cannot get safely to Iran and back without flying over Jordan, Saudi, Syria, Turkey etc who will not like it. He does not have big enough bombs to do a good job. So if the US will not do it he will make sure Obama does not get elected. No sensible nation nor the UN wants this attack and Russia and China have been very clear about it. But that means he cannot demolish the Mosque he dislikes on temple Mount and build his temple. Tantrums and threats as a result. Why does he not either vacate the West Bank or disarm himself. No one that mad should have a nuclear arsenal should they, let alone in the Middle East.

“ NY Times: Israeli Leader Sharpens Call on U.S. to Set Limits on Iran
Published: September 11, 2012 155 Comments

JERUSALEM — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel harshly criticized the Obama administration on Tuesday over recent statements that the United States would not set deadlines or draw “red lines” for Iran over its disputed uranium enrichment activities, calling such comments a signal to the Iranians that they could build atomic bombs with impunity.
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Mr. Netanyahu’s remarks laid bare the underlying tensions between the United States and Israel over how to deal with Iran, and they threatened to elevate the Iranian uranium enrichment program as a virulent campaign issue less than two months before the American presidential elections.
Mr. Netanyahu’s remarks were among the strongest Mr. Netanyahu has made over the Iranian enrichment activities, which the Israelis have repeatedly called part of a clandestine Iranian plan to build nuclear weapons despite Tehran’s denials. Mr. Netanyahu’s government, which considers Iran to be Israel’s most dangerous enemy, has threatened to bomb suspected Iranian enrichment sites.
He appeared to be reacting on Tuesday in particular to an assertion by Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton in an interview with Bloomberg Radio on Sunday in which she was asked if the administration would articulate explicit consequences for Iran’s refusal to halt its enrichment program, as the United Nations Security Council has repeatedly requested. Mrs. Clinton said “we’re not setting deadlines.”
On Monday, the State Department spokeswoman, Victoria Nuland, reiterated President Obama’s commitment not to allow Iran to obtain nuclear weapons and said “it is not useful to be parsing it, to be setting deadlines one way or the other, red lines.”
Addressing reporters in Jerusalem on Tuesday, Mr. Netanyahu unequivocally rejected those comments and slapped back at the United States. Speaking in English, he said, “The world tells Israel: ‘Wait, there’s still time.’ And I say, ‘Wait for what? Wait until when?’ Those in the international community who refuse to put red lines before Iran don’t have a moral right to place a red light before Israel.”
In his remarks, made in a joint news conference with the visiting prime minister of Bulgaria, Boyko Borisov, Mr. Netanyahu also said: “Now if Iran knows that there is no red line, if Iran knows that there is no deadline, what will it do? Exactly what it’s doing. It’s continuing, without any interference, toward obtaining nuclear weapons capability and from there, nuclear bombs.”
He criticized the litany of economic sanctions imposed on Iran by the United States and the European Union as ineffective in stopping the enrichment program. “The fact is that every day that passes, Iran gets closer and closer to nuclear bombs,” Mr. Netanyahu said.
Mr. Netanyahu has said that Israel and the United States were in talks on setting what he has called a “clear red line’ for when Iran’s nuclear etc etc”

What does Netanyahu think about Pakistan’s nuclear bomb, or India’s? Iran is a problem for him but he is a problem for the poor Palestinians who are much poorer than they were and now have absolutely no chance of statehood nor retrieving the Jordan valley that was given to them. It was Britain who in the 1920‘s first suggested a homeland for Jews. Who made it possible when they governed Palestine with a mandate, who fought a war when Hitler invaded Poland and started deporting all European Jews to camps. And who with the US made it a physical reality after the war. Even though there were Zionist terrorist atrocities in the land while the British were there, they handed power to the leader of them. The new ‘Israelis’ never accepted the limitations to the land given to them and have allowed continuous immigration which has permanently changed the demographics. They have consigned 4 million people - families not prisoners of war - to camps and bullied them, controlled and withheld their funding and tax revenues, while building up their mighty army. They have taken all the wealth of the land and made the life of a Palestinian a misery. Do they really think that is acceptable or fair? Now bullying Britain and America - do they think that is wise? Yet not one politician dare say anything about this reality. So no wonder Iran and the Arabs so angry - even if their own governments say little to offend this country. This has started a surge in Muslim fundamentalism that is wrecking our world but is nothing yet. Soon the Gulf States and Saudi will fall to this Arab spring fury and unite against this mad modern Custer.

But will he dismantle the illegal settlements that are at the heart of this. Over our dead bodies.

Reve x

11-09-2012, 06:55 PM
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person is like expecting the Lion not to attack you because you are a vegetarian.
The World is not fair: Live with it...T

12-09-2012, 07:44 AM
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person is like expecting the Lion not to attack you because you are a vegetarian.
The World is not fair: Live with it...T

No Tor you are wrong. Unfairness is injustice and those with any moral fibre will take a stand against it. We will not tolerate bullying in our schools, the abuse of children, the fact that disabled people through no fault of their own love in an inequitable position. We make education, transport and life accessible to them and provide the very best medical care free to them and give them benefits to help with the costs of their care. We respect them. Some countries do not and you find them begging for food, some even mutilate children to beg for them. Nor should we allow 4 million Palestinians to live in concentration camps, be second class citizens. In the War those Jews who fought against the Nazis in the ghettos and camps were heroes, not terrorists. Their actions brought then same draconian response - 100 would die for every German killed which is a similar staiostic to that for \palestinains to Israelis is it not.

Israel is at it and we all know that, but no one will say it . Look at the disgraceful news today and deny it if you will - it is like denying the holocaust. Netanyahu wants his war, he will make absolutely no concessions, has aggravated the problem and used every underhand way available to him to bully the world into submission. Fairness is everything.

“ NY Times today: On the 11th anniversary of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, the assaults were a violent reminder that the changes sweeping the region have hardly dispelled the rage against the United States that still smolders in pockets around the Arab world.
The mobs were set off by Egyptian media reports about a 14-minute trailer for the video, called “Innocence of Muslims,” that was released on the Web. The trailer opens with scenes of Egyptian security forces standing idle as Muslims pillage and burn the homes of Egyptian Christians. Then it cuts to cartoonish scenes depicting the Prophet Muhammad as a child of uncertain parentage, a buffoon, a womanizer, a homosexual, a child molester and a greedy, bloodthirsty thug.
The trailer was uploaded to YouTube by Sam Bacile, whom The Wall Street Journal Web site identified as a 52-year old Israeli-American real estate developer in California. He told the Web site he had raised $5 million from 100 Jewish donors to make the film. “Islam is a cancer,” Mr. Bacile was quoted as saying.
The video gained international attention when a Florida pastor began promoting it along with his own proclamation of Sept. 11 as “International Judge Muhammad Day.”
In a statement on Tuesday, the pastor, Terry Jones of Gainesville, Fla., called the film “an American production, not designed to attack Muslims but to show the destructive ideology of Islam” and said it “further reveals in a satirical fashion the life of Muhammad.”
He said the embassy and consulate attacks illustrated that Muslims “have no tolerance for anything outside of Muhammad” and called Islam “a total deception.”

“ Haaretz today: Clinton said the United States considers negotiations "by far the best approach to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons." You don't have to be an expert in American diplomatic language to understand to whom the secretary of state's words are directed, and why. Blatant, direct, cold and harsh language is the only way to get the hearing-impaired country to understand what the Americans want from it.
Clinton did not direct her words at Tehran, but at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. In other words: Israel will not present any ultimatum to the United States and will not dictate red or blue lines to Washington. The time has come, Clinton made it clear, for Israel to internalize the fact that the United States also has an independent policy, its own interests and timetable, which, amazingly, are not decided in Jerusalem.
Netanyahu should not be surprised. After all, he was the one who exceeded expectations when it came to turning the conflict with Iran into an Israeli-Iranian issue, instead of an international threat. The tremendous international efforts to enlist support for the strongest sanctions ever imposed on a country are worthless in his eyes.
In that case, explains Clinton, let Israel have the honor of fighting its private war with Iran by itself. The United States will not be a partner, at least for the time being, to this crime. The United States, she affirmed, has not exhausted the diplomatic process, and also believes in it.
So what, for heaven's sake, does U.S. President Barack Obama mean when he says that the United States is committed to Israel's security? If he isn't even willing to draw red lines, how can we be confident that he will send his planes when the necessary time comes? And what is the "necessary time" if we don't have a defined timeline?
The dispute between Israel and Washington is far more profound than the question of defining the proper time for an attack. Clinton's words make it clear that the two countries are not on the same page in terms of their perception of the Iranian threat. They also imply that Washington does not believe Iran intends to develop nuclear weapons. At most, Clinton is adopting the approach that enriching uranium to 20 percent is an indication of intent, but not of action. As Clinton says, "We're watching very carefully about what they do, because it's always been more about their actions than their words."
That is precisely the formulation of the American equation on the question of guaranteeing Israel's security. The United States wants to protect Israel from itself - or, to be more exact, from its prime minister. It is not buying the Israeli government's assessments about the relatively small number of potential victims. It predicts that Israel won't be able to stop the Iranian nuclear program, and worse, that an attack against Iran will only increase its self-conviction that it must attain nuclear weapons. The United States anticipates a violent campaign in the Middle East in which Israel will be a prime target, and what especially scares Washington is that it will be forced to fight this war for Israel.
Netanyahu has apparently forgotten that the United States is not an Israeli colony. It is Israel that depends on the United States, which has assumed the role of sponsor despite the tremendous price involved. The dispute over the Iranian threat is liable to destroy the infrastructure of that relationship. The American security guard in the supermarket hopes that screaming at Netanyahu will suffice. But what if it doesn't? What if, in spite of the screaming, Netanyahu's inner Napoleon goes to his head?

Now there are good decent people in Israel and most Jewish people in the world are horrified at what is happening, and only they can deal with this injustice fairly without a war. But I will upset you all by what I will write now. If the Bible is to be believed both King David and Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, as did their descendants and the Bible states that God punished them with dispersal more trhan once. But they had another chance and Britain gave it to them. Britain is the Dragon, both good and evil. The Dragon and Beast are archetypes and repeat throughout human history. I liken the Beast to the Civil service and monarchy but its hallmark is injustice. Its number is 666. One striking thing about that ‘Seal of Solomon’ and the Israeli flag is that it is 6 pointed, is composed of 6 triangles all of whose angles are 60 degrees. We gave power to a Beast but intended to rescue a homeless people who were being persecuted. Now we find them doing exactly what we were rescuing them from. Not because they wish to but because their kings do evil in the sight of the Lord. It will end badly if they do not change now which means collectively standing up to this great injustice and stain on the US and Britain. Obama and |Cl;inton are doing what they can in an election year at great cost to themselves. We should all help.

Tor if you wish to allow unfairness and teach that it is part of life and we must accept it and move on - you work for the Beast and I am sure such a statement disgraces Leo your hero and every Emin here.


PS my wife is on a train passing through Lockerbie right now. The truth of that Lockerbie bombing may well emerge soon although i suspect hefty plea bargaining will try to prevent that. At least one of the victim's families have refused the massive compensation payment because they do not believe Libya was really responsible and there are serious indications that the real bomber worked with or for Mossad. There are also many serious people who believe that 9/11 was similarly orchestrated. Were either of these dreadful accusations to be found even partly true, that they knew in advance or facilitated these atrocities then we could never allow that to be made public. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslim lives would have suffered as a result and the Prophet has been implicated. Can you imagine what the Islamic and even non-Islamic world's reaction to those revelations would be and what would happen to Israel and Jews all over the world as a result? So we keep silent but there are many souls screaming at the injustice especially yesterday and the only thing that will quiet them is to change this world today, not even next week. The hope of some is that a world war will hide all of that and prevent the revenge scenarios which will make the human unjustifiable. That is an even greater injustice and how the Beast works. As was prophesied 'in the Beast is found the blood of saints'. js

12-09-2012, 11:34 AM
I dont actually meet any of those criteria fortunately, and no one who knows me would think I do or ever did. I have never been called Ankor but did live in a flat with Ankhor. Rattuos is the reverse of my surname, a childhood nickname and musical name I have used. Tor I recognise a lot of those in you and some of your friends who show no compassion for others, least of all those who have suffered child abuse. And unfortunately i also recognise some of those in particular world leaders and men who have started religions, which is why I write about them here. You my friend really ought to read people's posts before commenting on them - you are one mixed up person at present in your rage. It is particularly sad on a day when the Arab world is being incited to murder by a moronic Israeli man, when men who have been helping Libya are killed as a direct result of what look to be Israeli policies, that you come out with this kind of rubbish as a diversion. Sad but predictable. I now expect a chorus of approval from JennM and Rainbow telling us all what a wonderful observation you have made. You all miss the point deliberately and reflect exactly what is the problem with our world. If you have a camel it has my sympathy. Do you beat it too?


12-09-2012, 06:42 PM
Obama snubbed Netanyahu by refusing to meet him on his American trip, so Mr Im Becile puts the grotesque film on the internet with Egyptian demotic subtitles. Ambassador gets killed. US promises to deal with the culprits. Look no further than the man who posted the film and the people who did the subtitles. The Arab world is alight. Tor says he lives in Egypt but is spending the day misquoting (he does not read posts properly) stuff he claims I posted years ago on Godlike Productions, but is actually quoting comments which were made to me by others. Why is he doing this?

He thinks we are gullible just as Netanyahu thinks his people and the American President are gullible and weak. The angels are no longer behind the bad men in this world and they are now looking very exposed. Justice will be served - it takes its time but is relentless. And that applies to any bad men in the Emin too. The truth comes out eventually. No US politician wants to send servicemen to their deaths to defend someone who appears to be insane. I doubt if the intelligence services want to either. But some nasty people do.
It is like a car crash in slow motion.
reve x

12-09-2012, 08:40 PM
ork, M.Z. The Black Book part two, chapter 1, scroll 10: "…I the great Neter: Amun Nubi Raakh Ptah, who did not rule on earth but rule amongst the stars, am also known as Amunnubi Rooakhptah or Amunubi Rah Ka Ptah, the sun raising out of the East unto the west, who throughout time on earth, was known as the great Tehuti, from Septet (Sirius) even called Djehuti, Zehuti, Djhowtey, or in Greek they called me Thoth, Toth, Thought, Thout, and Hermes Trismegistus. Also called by the Arabs of Islam Al Khidr, Al Masih, and by the Hebrew Rabboni, Ha Mashiakh, also called, Issa Al Haadi Al Mahdi, the grand Mufti of the western world al Mukhlas, ‘the purifier’ Al Mujaddid, ‘the reformer’ Al Qubt, ‘the axis’ Al Imaam, ‘the leader’ Melchizedek, ‘angel of justice’, Miyka’el, angelic being, Yaanuwn, ‘the 19th elder’ Murduk, ‘the Anunnaqi’ Malachi, ‘the messenger of fulfillment’ and Atum-re, the great deity of the Sun, Re ‘ra, roi’ raised to the heights 720 degrees, 360 degrees of physical (understanding) and 360 degrees of spiritual (overstanding), the Supreme Grand Hierophant of the Ancient Egiptian Order."

12-09-2012, 09:25 PM
"Haaretz:Graffiti reading "Price tag Migron" was found on Monday night on the wall of mosque in a village southwest of Hebron in the West Bank.

"Price tag" attacks are usually carried out by West Bank settlers and their supporters against Palestinian targets, often in retaliation for moves against settlements. Migron is the name of a West Bank outpost that was recently evacuated.

Judea and Samaria District Police claim that residents only informed them of the graffiti on Tuesday evening, and that following this an investigation was opened into the incident.

Last week, the door of a Christian monastery in Latrun, near Jerusalem, was set on fire, and anti-Christian slogans were found spray-painted on the monastery's walls.

The arson and graffiti were suspected to be a “price tag” attack following the recent evacuation of Migron.

Monks residing at the monastery noticed the burning door on Tuesday morning, and called police after extinguishing the flames. Graffiti sprayed on the monastery walls included the words “Migron,” and “Jesus is a monkey.”

One of the monks that resides at the monastery claimed that the acts of vandalism and arson are the first such acts of their kind in the monastery’s 122 year history.

The Jerusalem Police’s central unit has opened an investigation into the incident. No suspects have been stopped to date."

They remind me of Tor and the graffiti he daubs on our thread.

They are now saying that Sam Becile who made the film is neither Israeli nor Jewish, but an idiot - and suggesting it is an Egyptian Christian Coptic plot. I daresay they will find it was a Christian monley daubing graffiti on the mosque and monastery too. If they can pin the attacks on Al Qaida that will be helpful too and get Libya and Egypt off the hook. But I daresay it will all turn out to be an Iranian plot.

I note that now it was Tor and others who 'threw me out of the Emin'. That is also convenient. Tor no one threw me out, we were asked to stay. It will all be recorded in those massive archives. I am beginning to wonder if you were ever in the organisation and are not some troll here to make Emins look bad.

reve x.

12-09-2012, 09:42 PM
is the 'great neter who rules the stars' the man locked up for 135 years. I wonder if he talks to Charles Manson the great 666 god also locked up although he can levitate camper vans over ravines. Rex the guru I mentioned from the 70's who was Jesus and King Arthur used to stay in a mental asylum from time to time, he said this was only when he needed a rest.

I also wanted to mention something about that woman who suddenly discovered that her rapper idol was a bit sexist. Almost all the rock heroes were a 'bit sexist', abused young teenage groupies around the world (they call them jailbait in the US), even Elvis with his marriage to poor Priscilla and his 'she's a devil in disguise' fits the bill. So many rock songs are sexist, so many r&b heroes beat their women. It is not only a black supremacist thing at all. Maybe it is a musician - fame gone to their head believe their own PR hype thing. The domestic violence I worked with was not a racial thing either. The gangsters were as bad as the drinkers, pimps and psychopaths.


13-09-2012, 01:35 AM
on our thread
we were asked to stay

So, it's now your thread all signs of a sociopath...
We, who is we another sociopathic sign, the royal we.
Put Kim on, lets talk some sense into you, if you dare, I dare you..T

13-09-2012, 08:14 AM
Were you the man who lived at Putney and collected our subs at the door? I notice you say 'we threw you out' and if that is the case I considfer that defamatory and spoken on behalf of the Emin. It is untrue - I paid every sub demanded of me although i found the collection to be intimidating as did all my friends in the Emin. Furthermore I and my two friends left of our own accord and in sonme disgust. My two friends were then invited to a meeting at Putney and publicly humiliated by Ro. It will all be on the archive tapes. And if that is you perhaps you should show your 'book' to the Inland Revenue and explain what you did with all the money you collected and how that reconciles with the official accounts, because we heard many stories of massive amounts of cash taken after meetings to casinos.

On the other hand i did not call this 'my' thread. It was started by Carlperkins or Oberon as he was known but it belongs truly to all who read it and write on it, and of course to David Icke's Forum so I call it our thread.

Can someone tell me if this is the man who is being abusive to me and seems to speak for the Emin. He claims that Leo put him in charge of the poor members who were almiost suicidal at times because they could not afford their subs. I do recall how we were all harrassed and humilaited by that sub collector. Perhaps that was what Leo had in mind - get that money in at all costs and live in luxury abroad. But that was not 'Emin' I assure you. Like this thread that was 'our' Emin and 'our' includes all of us and the ancients going back thousands of years who also attended for a while and who started the way long before Leo and Orman were thought of. I am sure Orman would agree that it is more than a business however it appears now.

Moderators do we have to put up with this man's language and attempts to defile the thread? Can you not moderate him a bit? It is most unpleasant to read what he calls me, which should be on pm's if he has to abuse me in this way, not on a Forum read by seekers, scholars, respectable people and even children. I can put up with the occult attacks and threats but these remarks affect us all and I believe are intended to close us down. He did not use such language in the Emin, no one did, nor did he advertise his use of illegal drugs so why do it now and here except to put off those reading this?

reve x

13-09-2012, 08:30 AM
Haaretz today:

U.S. strike on Iran could lead to all-out Mideast war, experts say
The report compiled by former government officials, national security experts and retired military officers is to be publicly released

New poll: Majority of Americans oppose military strike on Iran
As tensions mount between Israel and the U.S. over Iran, a poll by the Chicago Council for Global Affairs shows widespread support for the Administration’s cautious policies.
By Chemi Shalev| 20:33 11.09.12
Despite labeling Iran’s nuclear program as a “critical threat” to U.S. interests, a clear majority of Americans oppose a military strike against Tehran and support a policy of UN sanctions and diplomatic dialogue

Romney stumbles over Libya killings, but Obama is vulnerable in the long run
The repugnant film “Innocence of Islam” is unworthy of Romney’s defense; let’s hope it has nothing to do with Jews.
By Chemi Shalev| 22:48 12.09.12

Reve: Yesterday there was an interesting article in Haaretz by Jonathan Lis stating that in parliament an Opposition leader who resigned from Netanyahu’s party last July had asked that the Prime Minister take a lie detector test! He also was dismayed at the beating war drum rhetoric the like of which he had never seen before. Of course all world leaders should take lie detector and psychopath tests! What a shame such a small percentage of Israelis read their best and most honest newspaper.

Which US party will the Emin (Ethra) be supporting financially this time I wonder?

Reve x

13-09-2012, 08:33 AM
views today, another sharp increase over the last two days thanks to Tor!

reve x

13-09-2012, 10:28 AM
Moderators do we have to put up with this man's language and attempts to defile the thread? Can you not moderate him a bit? It is most unpleasant to read what he calls me, which should be on pm's if he has to abuse me in this way, not on a Forum read by seekers, scholars, respectable people and even children.

I haven't looked at this thread in a while but have to say I found this somewhat surprising, coming from the same man who never let me forget that I'd once asked the moderators to do something about his insulting posts. Free speech for everyone, Reve, or just for you?

13-09-2012, 10:45 AM
You wanted me banned but i am asking for the vile language to be excised. If you would comment on that even privately to Tor it would help - or do you think his language on this and the last page are acceptable for an Emin man?

reve x

13-09-2012, 11:03 AM
Haaretz have done some excellent research very fast on this imbecile:

Haaretz:The search for those behind the provocative, anti-Muslim film implicated in violent protests in Egypt and Libya led Wednesday to a California Coptic Christian convicted of financial crimes who acknowledged his role in managing and providing logistics for the production.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, 55, told The Associated Press in an interview outside Los Angeles that he was manager for the company that produced "Innocence of Muslims," which mocked Muslims and the prophet Muhammad and may have caused inflamed mobs that attacked U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. He provided the first details about a shadowy production group behind the film.

Nakoula denied he directed the film and said he knew the self-described filmmaker, Sam Bacile. But the cell phone number that AP contacted Tuesday to reach the filmmaker who identified himself as Sam Bacile traced to the same address near Los Angeles where AP found Nakoula. Federal court papers said Nakoula's aliases included Nicola Bacily, Erwin Salameh and others.

Nakoula told the AP that he was a Coptic Christian and said the film's director supported the concerns of Christian Copts about their treatment by Muslims.
Nakoula denied he had posed as Bacile. During a conversation outside his home, he offered his driver's license to show his identity but kept his thumb over his middle name, Basseley. Records checks by the AP subsequently found it and other connections to the Bacile persona.

The AP located Bacile after obtaining his cell phone number from Morris Sadek, a conservative Coptic Christian in the U.S. who had promoted the anti-Muslim film in recent days on his website. Egypt's Christian Coptic population has long decried what they describe as a history of discrimination and occasional violence from the country's Arab majority.

Pastor Terry Jones of Gainesville, Florida, who burned Qurans on the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, said he spoke with the movie's director on the phone Wednesday and prayed for him. He said he has not met the filmmaker in person, but the man contacted him a few weeks ago about promoting the movie.

"I have not met him. Sam Bacile, that is not his real name," Jones said. "I just talked to him on the phone. He is definitely in hiding and does not reveal his identity. He was quite honestly fairly shook up concerning the events and what is happening. A lot of people are not supporting him."

The film was implicated in protests that resulted in the burning of the U.S. consulate Tuesday in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

Libyan officials said Wednesday that Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other embassy employees were killed during the mob violence, but U.S. officials now say they are investigating whether the assault was a planned terrorist strike linked to Tuesday's 11-year anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks.

Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

The YouTube account, "Sam Bacile," which was used to publish excerpts of the provocative movie in July, was used to post comments online as recently as Tuesday, including this defense of the film written in Arabic: "It is a 100 percent American movie, you cows."

Assistant U.S. Attorney Jennifer Leigh Williams said Nakoula set up fraudulent bank accounts using stolen identities and Social Security numbers, then checks from those accounts would be deposited into other bogus accounts from which Nakoula would withdraw money at ATM machines.

It was "basically a check-kiting scheme," the prosecutor told the AP. "You try to get the money out of the bank before the bank realizes they are drawn from a fraudulent account. There basically is no money."

The actors in the film issued a joint statement Wednesday saying they were misled about the project and said some of their dialogue was crudely dubbed during post-production.

In the English language version of the trailer, direct references to Muhammad appear to be the result of post-production changes to the movie. Either actors aren't seen when the name "Muhammad" is spoken in the overdubbed sound, or they appear to be mouthing something else as the name of the prophet is spoken.

"The entire cast and crew are extremely upset and feel taken advantage of by the producer," said the statement, obtained by the Los Angeles Times. "We are 100 percent not behind this film and were grossly misled about its intent and purpose. We are shocked by the drastic rewrites of the script and lies that were told to all involved. We are deeply saddened by the tragedies that have occurred."

The person who identified himself as Bacile and described himself as the film's writer and director told the AP on Tuesday that he had gone into hiding. But doubts rose about the man's identity amid a flurry of false claims about his background and role in the purported film.

Bacile told the AP he was an Israeli-born, 56-year-old, Jewish writer and director. But a Christian activist involved in the film project, Steve Klein, told AP on Wednesday that Bacile was a pseudonym and that he was Christian.

Klein had told the AP on Tuesday that the filmmaker was an Israeli Jew who was concerned for family members who live in Egypt.

Officials in Israel said there was no record of Bacile as an Israeli citizen.
When the AP initially left a message for Bacile, Klein contacted the AP from another number to confirm the interview request was legitimate then Bacile called back from his own cell phone.

Klein said he didn't know the real name of the man he called "Sam," who came to him for advice on First Amendment issues.

About 15 key players from the Middle East — from Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Iran and a couple Coptic Christians from Egypt — worked on the film, Klein said.

"Most of them won't tell me their real names because they're terrified," Klein said. "He was really scared and now he's so nervous. He's turned off his phone."

The Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups, said Klein is a former Marine and longtime religious-right activist who has helped train paramilitary militias at a California church. It described Klein as founder of Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques.

It quoted Klein as saying he believes that California is riddled with Muslim Brotherhood sleeper cells "who are awaiting the trigger date and will begin randomly killing as many of us as they can."

In his brief interview with the AP, Bacile defiantly called Islam a cancer and said he intended the film to be a provocative political statement condemning the religion.

But several key facts Bacile provided proved false or questionable. Bacile told AP he was 56 but identified himself on his YouTube profile as 74. Bacile said he is a real estate developer, but Bacile does not appear in searches of California state licenses, including the Department of Real Estate.

Hollywood and California film industry groups and permit agencies said they had no records of the project under the name "Innocence of Muslims," but a Los Angeles film permit agency later found a record of a movie filmed in Los Angeles last year under the working title "Desert Warriors."

A man who answered a phone listed for the Vine Theater, a faded Hollywood movie house, confirmed that the film had run for a least a day, and possibly longer, several months ago, arranged by a customer known as "Sam."

Google Inc., which owns YouTube, pulled down the video Wednesday in Egypt, citing a legal complaint. It was still accessible in the U.S. and other countries.

Klein told the AP that he vowed to help make the movie but warned the filmmaker that "you're going to be the next Theo van Gogh." Van Gogh was a Dutch filmmaker killed by a Muslim extremist in 2004 after making a film that was perceived as insulting to Islam.

"We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen," Klein said.

As no one in California is allowed to protest against Israel hopefully these people will all be arrested and the film banned to the satisfaction of a lot of angry muslims.

reve x

13-09-2012, 11:33 AM
Ah, I see, that was different. Of course, I should have realised.

Look, I've said this before but you don't seem to want to get the point (although I think I know why): Tor and I do not work together. We do not communicate privately together. We happen to share some views on your postings here. It no doubt suits you to put us together - Pinky and Perky I think was the highly imaginative name you came up with for us. It allows you to dismiss criticism by claiming it's part of a conspiracy against you.

Or to put it another way: I'm not interested in commenting on whether or not Tor's language is 'acceptable for an Emin man'? Why should I? He's talking to you. And if I did comment, it would simply confirm your conspiracy delusions.

It is either acceptable language for a thread about the Emin or not. Threats of occult attacks against me are either acceptable or not too. So are making unwarranted child abuse allegations against my father who was a Church of England vicar. Is that acceptable to you JennM?

My mention of child abuse by an Emin man was because the senior usher John/Orion summoned me to witness his interview with the man and said to me that this was only the tip of an iceberg he had to deal with.

As was stated by someone else here you are in this with Tor, by association. You have consistently backed him up and praised him here while attacking me and have refused to distance yourself from his abusive language and threats against me although I have asked this several times. That is all the encouragement he needs. i do not know who you were in the Emin nor if you rerally were a teacher as JennM is not an Emin name. i do not blame you or any others here for hiding behind anonymity but it does not convince me that you are in fact genuine. I only asked Tor to post his photo because he wrote here that he would if i did and then we get a picture of a camel in the far distance which he says is him. It is dishonest is it not? or do you find that kind of deception amusing.

Anyway you may find this deception by Horus worth a chickle too:

" The meaning of the name Set is unknown, thought to have been originally pronounced *Sūtaḫ based on the occurrence of his name in Egyptian hieroglyphs (swtḫ), and his later mention in the Coptic documents with the name Sēt. In the late period[clarification needed], Set is depicted as a donkey or with the head of a donkey.

The earliest representations of what may be the Set animal comes from a tomb dating to the Naqada I phase of the predynastic period (3790 BC–3500 BC), though this identification is uncertain. If these are ruled out, then the earliest Set-animal appears on a mace head of the Scorpion King, a protodynastic ruler. The head and the forked tail of the Set animal are clearly present.

Set was depicted standing on the prow of Ra's night barque spearing Apep in the form of a serpent, turtle, or other dangerous water animals. In some Late Period representations, such as in the Persian Period temple at Hibis in the Khargah Oasis, Set was represented in this role with a falcon's head, taking on the guise of Horus. In the Amduat Set is described as having a key role in overcoming Apep.

During the Second Intermediate Period, a group of Asiatic foreign chiefs known as the Hyksos (literally, "rulers of foreign lands") gained the rulership of Egypt, and ruled the Nile Delta, from Avaris. They chose Set, originally Upper Egypt's chief god, the god of foreigners and the god they found most similar to their own chief god, as their patron, and so Set became worshiped as the chief god once again

The specific time of the Contendings is a period during which the fighting has temporarily stopped and Seth and Horus have brought their case before the Ennead. Throughout the story, Horus and Seth have various competitions to see who will be king. Horus beats Seth each time. The beginning of the story is a sort of a trial when both Seth and Horus plead their cases and the deities of the Ennead state their opinions. Later in the story, the combat starts up again between Horus and Seth and finally, the situation is resolved when Horus is determined to be rightful king of Egypt.

Horus had many battles with Set, not only to avenge his father, but to choose the rightful ruler of Egypt. In these battles, Horus came to be associated with Lower Egypt (where Horus was worshipped), and became its patron.

One scene stated how Horus was on the verge of killing Set; but his mother (and Set's sister), Isis, stopped him. Isis injured Horus, but eventually healed him.

Horus and Set challenged each other to a boat race, where they each raced in a boat made of stone. Horus and Set agreed, and the race started. But Horus had an edge: his boat was made of wood painted to resemble stone, rather than true stone. Set's boat, being made of heavy stone, sank, but Horus's did not. Horus then won the race, and Set stepped down and officially gave Horus the throne of Egypt. But after the New Kingdom, Set still was considered Lord of the desert and its oases.

Horus was also said to be a god of war and hunting. The Horus falcon is shown upon a standard on the predynastic Hunters Palette in the "lion hunt".
Thus he became a symbol of majesty and power as well as the model of the pharaohs. The Pharaohs were said to be Horus in human form. Furthermore Nemty, another war god, was later identified as Horus.

He was seen as a great falcon with outstretched wings whose right eye was the sun and the left one was the moon. In this form, he was sometimes given the title Kemwer, meaning (the) great black (one).

Some scholars see similarities between the statue of Isis and Horus and later Christian depictions of the Madonna and Child.] However, later artistic Christian renderings have very little to do with the origins of biblical texts. Stephen Benko states that some depictions of Mary and Jesus share similarities with extant ancient Egyptian art depictions of Horus and Isis. Egyptologist Erik Hornung wrote that "There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet 'mother of the god"

extracts from wikipedia

reve x

13-09-2012, 11:52 AM
It is either acceptable language for a thread about the Emin or not. Threats of occult attacks against me are either acceptable or not too. So are making unwarranted child abuse allegations against my father who was a Church of England vicar. Is that acceptable to you JennM?

Again, I'm not sure why you keep asking me what's acceptable to me. Earlier in this thread I stated clearly enough that I found your claims about, e.g. child abuse, to be inappropriate for a public internet forum. I found your continuing claim to be speaking for Leo - okay, let's use the word - unacceptable. However, you did nothing about this other than to insult me, call me stupid, tell me I'm colluding with people I'm not, attack Paul Devereux, whose work I respect very much (even though that part of the thread had nothing to do with you) with ill-thought out and erroneous claims . . . yet you keep banging on at me to say I find Tor's comments to you unacceptable.

Strange behaviour to say the least. But quite easy to see.

13-09-2012, 02:48 PM
Something strange happened to Egypt around 1800BC and it is linked with the arrival there of Jacob and his tribes. At the risk of upsetting those who dislike my copy & pastes but do not read them this is quite a long paste but for anyone interested in either Egypt or its connection with the Bible it is quite useful. I will reveal why I am bringing this up at the end of it. As far as any link with the Emin is concerned it is hard to say as Leo had a kind of made up Egypt that he taught, but he was also very interested in Jacob. Skim through if you have nothing better to do and want to know what most do not about real Egyptian history

“ wiki The Hyksos or Hycsos ( /ˈhɪksɒs/; Egyptian heqa khasewet, "foreign rulers"; Greek Ὑκσώς, Ὑξώς, Arabic: الملوك الرعاة, shepherd kings) were an Asiatic people who took over the eastern Nile Delta, ending the thirteenth dynasty, and initiating the Second Intermediate Period of ancient Egypt.
The Hyksos first appeared in Egypt c.1800 BC, during the eleventh dynasty, began their climb to power in the thirteenth dynasty, and came out of the second intermediate period in control of Avaris and the Delta. By the fifteenth dynasty, they ruled Lower Egypt, and at the end of the seventeenth dynasty, they were expelled (c.1560 BC). The Hyksos may have introduced the horse-drawn chariot into Egypt.

The historian Josephus maintains that the Hyksos were in fact the children of Jacob who joined his son Joseph to escape the famine in the land of Canaan.

There are various hypotheses as to the Hyksos ethnic identity. Most archeologists] describe the Hyksos as multi-ethnic, to include all of the peoples who occupied the emporia of the delta. Some were warlords seeking employment by the Egyptians as mercenaries. Some were unemployed agricultural workers looking for work helping produce food and resorting to banditry, theft and other crimes when they did not get it. Some were skilled tradesmen, professionals, doctors, lawyers, scribes, priests, diplomats, accountants. Some were merchants importing raw materials: timber from Byblos, semi-precious stones from as far away as Afghanistan, tin, copper, bronze, medicines for the doctors, perfumes for the wigmakers, bitumen, natron, linen, frankincense and myrrh for the mummification industry at Karnak or exporting grain and beer to as far away as Greece.

The origin of the term "Hyksos" derives from the Egyptian expression heka khasewet ("rulers of foreign lands"), used in Egyptian texts such as the Turin King List to describe the rulers of neighbouring lands. This expression begins to appear as early as the late Old Kingdom in Egypt, referring to various Nubian chieftains, and as early as the Middle Kingdom, referring to the Semitic chieftains of Syria and Canaan.

The German Egyptologist Wolfgang Helck once argued that the Hyksos were part of massive and widespread Hurrian and Indo-Aryan migrations into the Near East. According to Helck, the Hyksos were Hurrians and part of a Hurrian empire that, he claimed, extended over much of Western Asia at this period. Most scholars have rejected this theory and Helck himself has now abandoned this hypothesis in a 1993 article.

Modern scholarship usually assumes that the Hyksos were likely Semites who came from the Levant. Kamose, the last king of the Theban 17th Dynasty, refers to Apophis as a "Chieftain of Retjenu (i.e., Canaan)" in a stela that implies a Semitic Canaanite background for this Hyksos king: this is the strongest evidence for a Canaanite background for the Hyksos. Khyan's name "has generally been interpreted as Amorite "Hayanu" (reading h-ya-a-n) which the Egyptian form represents perfectly, and this is in all likelihood the correct interpretation."[6] Kim S.B. Ryholt furthermore observes the name Hayanu is recorded in the Assyrian king-lists for a "remote ancestor" of Shamshi-Adad I (c. 1813 BC) of Assyria, which suggests that it had been used for centuries prior to Khyan's own reign.

The issue of Sakir-Har's name, one of the three earliest 15th Dynasty kings, also leans towards a West Semitic or Canaanite origin for the Hyksos rulers—if not the Hyksos peoples themselves. As Ryholt notes, the name Sakir-Har is evidently a theophorous name compounded with hr, Canaanite harru, [or] 'mountain.' This sacred or deified mountain is attested in at least two other names, which are both West Semitic (Ya'qub-Har and Anar-Har) and so there is reason to suspect that the present name also may be West Semitic. The element skr seems identical to śkr, 'to hire, to reward,' which occurs in several Amorite names. Assuming that śkr takes a nominal form as in the names sa-ki-ru-um and sa-ka-ŕu-um, the name should be transliterated as either Sakir-Har or Sakar-Har. The former two names presumably mean 'the Reward.' Accordingly, the name here under consideration would mean 'Reward of Har.' ”

As to a Hyksos “conquest”, some archaeologists depict the Hyksos as “northern hordes . . . sweeping through Canaan and Egypt in swift chariots”. Yet, others refer to a ‘creeping conquest’, that is, a gradual infiltration of migrating nomads or seminomads who either slowly took over control of the country piecemeal or by a swift coup d’etat put themselves at the head of the existing government. In The World of the Past (1963, p. 444), archeologist Jacquetta Hawkes states: “It is no longer thought that the Hyksos rulers... represent the invasion of a conquering horde of Asiatics... they were wandering groups of Semites who had long come to Egypt for trade and other peaceful purposes.” However, this view still makes it difficult to explain how “wandering groups” could have gained control of Egypt, especially since the twelfth dynasty, prior to this period, is considered to have brought the country to a peak of power.

In his Against Apion, the 1st-century CE historian Josephus Flavius debates the synchronism between the Biblical account of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, and two Exodus-like events that the Egyptian historian Manetho apparently mentions. It is difficult to distinguish between what Manetho himself recounted, and how Josephus or Apion interpret him. Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" (also referred to as just 'shepherds', as 'kings' and as 'captive shepherds' in his discussion of Manetho) left Egypt for Jerusalem. The mention of "Hyksos" identifies this first exodus with the Hyksos period (16th century BC). Josephus records the earliest account of the false but understandable etymology that the Greek phrase Hyksos stood for the Egyptian phrase Hekw Shasu meaning the Bedouin-like Shepherd Kings, which scholars have only recently shown means "rulers of foreign lands".

Traditionally, only the Fifteenth Dynasty rulers are called Hyksos. The Greek name "Hyksos" was coined by Manetho to identify the Fifteenth Dynasty of Asiatic rulers of northern Egypt. In Egyptian Hyksos means "ruler(s) of foreign countries", however, Manetho mistranslated Hyksos as "Shepherd Kings".
The Hyksos had Canaanite names, as seen in those with names of Semitic deities such as Anath or Ba'al. They introduced new tools of warfare into Egypt, most notably the composite bow and the horse-drawn chariot.
The known rulers for the Hyksos 15th dynasty are:

Name Dates
Sakir-Har - Named as an early Hyksos king on a door jamb found at Avaris.
Regnal order uncertain.
Khyan c. 1620 BC
Apophis c. 1580 BC to 1540 BC
Khamudi c. 1540 BC to 1530 BC?

The Hyksos kingdom was centered in the eastern Nile Delta and Middle Egypt and was limited in size, never extending south into Upper Egypt, which was under the control of Theban-based rulers. Hyksos relations with the south seem,[citation needed] to have been mainly of a commercial nature, although Theban princes appear to have recognized the Hyksos rulers and may possibly have provided them with tribute for a period. The Hyksos Fifteenth Dynasty rulers established their capital and seat of government at Avaris.

A group of Asiatic peoples (perhaps the future Hyksos) depicted entering Egypt c.1900 BC from the tomb of a 12th dynasty official Khnumhotep under pharaoh Senusret II at Beni Hasan. The glyphs above are above the head of the first animal

The rule of these kings overlaps with that of the native Egyptian pharaohs of the 16th and 17th dynasties of Egypt, better known as the Second Intermediate Period. The first pharaoh of the 18th dynasty, Ahmose I, finally expelled the Hyksos from their last holdout at Sharuhen in Gaza by the 16th year of his reign. Scholars have taken the increasing use of scarabs and the adoption of some Egyptian forms of art by the Fifteenth Dynasty Hyksos kings and their wide distribution as an indication of their becoming progressively Egyptianized. The Hyksos used Egyptian titles associated with traditional Egyptian kingship, and took the Egyptian god Seth to represent their own titulary deity. It appears, that Hyksos administration was accepted in most quarters, if not actually supported by many of their northern Egyptian subjects. In spite of the prosperity that the stable political situation brought to the land, the native Egyptians continued to view the Hyksos as non-Egyptian "invaders.", When they were eventually driven out of Egypt, all traces of their occupation were erased. No accounts survive recording the history of the period from the Hyksos perspective, only that of the native Egyptians who evicted the occupiers, in this case the rulers of the Eighteenth Dynasty who were the direct successor of the Theban Seventeenth Dynasty. It was the latter who started and led a sustained war against the Hyksos. Some] think that the native kings from Thebes had an incentive to demonize the Asiatic rulers in the North, thus accounting for the destruction of their monuments. From this viewpoint the Hyksos dynasties represent superficially Egyptianized foreigners who were tolerated, but not truly accepted, by their Egyptian subjects. In contrast scholars such as John A. Wilson found that the description of the Hyksos as overpowering, irreligious foreign rulers had support from other sources” wikipedia

reve: Right if you have got this far good. Sir Flinders Petrie spent the last decade of his life digging around Sinai trying to fathom what the Hyksos were all about, where they came from and whether they were the Israelites. One of the Hyksos kings took a strange name for an Egyptian. It was the name of the serpent Apophis that is speared every night when Re’s boat traverses the dark side of the earth. It would not be strange of course of he had taken it to be contrary but even stranger he worshipped Set, the very god that harpoons Apophis on the nightly boat ride.

While the Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt which perversely for most of us is in fact Northern Egypt, the South kept their Egyptian rulers and eventually one of them managed to drive the Hyksos out and unite the country - uniting Upper and Lower Egypt was what the Egyptian Messiah was required to do, first done by Menes the first Pharaoh. Like Menes this southern ruler started the 18th dynasty famous for Thothmoses 1,2 & 3, Hatshepsut the female Pharaoh and the one who adopted Moses, Akhnaten the heretic pharaoh and Tutankhamun. It is certainly relevant to the real history of the Israelites. Here is a bit on Pharaoh Apophis:

“ Apepi (also Ipepi; Egyptian language ipp(i)) or Apophis (Greek Άποφις; regnal names Neb-Khepesh-Re, A-Qenen-Re and A-User-Re) was a ruler of Lower Egypt during the fifteenth dynasty and the end of the Second Intermediate Period that was dominated by this foreign dynasty of rulers called the Hyksos. According to the Turin Canon of Kings, he ruled over the northern portion of Egypt for forty years, and would have ruled during the early half of the 16th century (BCE) if he outlived his southern rival, Kamose, but not Ahmose I. Although his reign only entailed northern Egypt, Apepi was dominant over most of Egypt during the early portion of his reign, and traded peacefully with the native, Theban Seventeenth dynasty to the south.
While he may have exerted suzerainty over Upper Egypt during the beginning of his reign, the seventeenth dynasty eventually assumed control over this region, and the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt no more than fifteen years after his death.

Neb-Khepesh-Re (nb ḫpš rˁ), A-Qenen-Re (ˁ3 ḳn n rˁ) and A-User-Re (ˁ3 wsr rˁ) are three praenomina or throne names used by this same ruler during various parts of his reign. While some Egyptologists once believed that there were two separate kings who bore the name Apepi, namely Auserre Apepi and Aqenenre Apepi, it is now recognized that Khamudi succeeded Apepi I at Avaris and that there was only one king named Apepi or Apophis. Nebkhepeshre or "Re is the Lord of Strength" was Apepi's first prenomen; towards the middle of his reign, this Hyksos ruler adopted a new prenomen, Aqenenre, which translates as "The strength of Re is great." In the final decade or so of his reign, Apepi chose Auserre as his last prenomen. While the prenomen was altered, there is no difference in the translation of both Aqenenre and Auserre.

Rather than building his own monuments, Apepi generally usurped the monuments of previous pharaohs by inscribing his own name over two sphinxes of Amenemhat II. Apepi is thought to have usurped the throne of northern Egypt after the death of his predecessor, Khyan, since the latter had designated his son, Yanassi, to be his successor on the throne as a foreign ruler. He was succeeded by Khamudi, the last Hyksos ruler. Ahmose I, who drove out the Hyksos kings from Egypt, established the 18th Dynasty.
In the Ramesside era, he is recorded as worshiping Seth in a monolatric way: "[He] chose for his Lord the god Seth. He didn't worship any other deity in the whole land except Seth." Jan Assmann argues that because the Ancient Egyptians could never conceive of a "lonely" god lacking personality, Seth the desert god, who was worshiped exclusively, represented a manifestation of evil.” wikipedia

reve: they say ancient Egyptians considered Seth evil but in fact they should say later Egyptians after Horus demonised him. At this time the Egyptians in the South were worshipping Amen. But Re’ was always a chief god to the Egyptians and father of Isis, Osiris, Set and Horus. He was an old man god and was seldom listened to. When Set had to give up any claim on the throne following the boat race (NB Oxford and Cambridge still do this every year and the Oxford boat is called Isis) he left Egypt to live with Re’ suggesting that this god like that god of foreigners Set, Re' was not actually Egyptian. Hathor is called the Goddess of Foreign parts and the Hyksos are the kings of foreign parts. The Hyksos identified their original god with Set but took Amen back to Israel. Amen/Emin.

well done anyone who made it down to here, I hope it was worthwhile

Reve x

13-09-2012, 02:55 PM
as is this.

13-09-2012, 05:19 PM
how you look at it JennM. If you want to understand the world and its conflicts, its religions and eternal repetition then a long post like that is good for you. It represents centuries of work by the greatest scholars trying to find out what Egypt and Israel were all about and why what is in the Bible is not written in stone, or if it is where it is. It is easy to say 'Ah the Egyptians knew great secrets and had electricity in their homes generated by solar furnaces in the pyramids' but as they were meticulous scribes who wrote about everything one would wonder why they omitted that. The current conflict in the Middle East is all about this. One side, or people, who claim that God promised them Canaan and therefore they must have it all to themselves. And another people who always lived there but now find thjemselves in concentration camps, walled in, requiring permits to visit family and friends and not allowed to protest at risk of death. Why are there millions of evangelical Christians and Mormons who also subscribe to this? Why is there still genocide in this world and war and how did it come about? These are perhaps the most important questions anyone can ask. Throw in that most seekers, and hence people here, want enlightenment which means opening their eyes to truth not figments of someone's imagination and it results in a popular thread. 250 have been here since I posted this morning and another 250 probably will pop in later. Many share their knowledge. It is modest by comparison to media stuff but there are so few who want the truth. Hardly anyone knew what rap was about until fg explained to us what has gripped the world's youth and what the new religion on this planet is all about. Even hardened rappers are amazed by his research and knowledge of Egypt. But to do that he too had to put in some long pastes - who would believe it without the evidence?

As it happens the time allotted to the war god has passed but he will not honour that. You can call him and his followers many things - Leo called them the Amen and said he hated them. Some would say fallen angels, some gods or 'neters' as the Egyptians called them. Isis meant a very great deal to Leo but he would not talk about her so it is reasonable to have a look there as she was the 'mother' of this war god, thought also to be Jesus. It would seem impossible until you see how many wars his followers have waged on 'heathens'. Set is called a devil but never did anything to deserve that. Most seekers are looking for Thoth, or Hermes Trismegistus and his emerald tablets. But the Egyptians said he came out of Set's head so it might help to look at them and their namesake pharaohs - and hey presto you find the origin of Israel, not that the Israeli Emin appear too impressed.

You and Tor, but not the man who started this thread, want it to be hellos between old emins. If you write about Devereux here and say it is private and nothing to do with me and that i should not comment, you must be in the wrong place. Tor said he wants to meet serious emins here, not people like me but when we discover that woodenhills is a very serious original emin he is not interested. You are full of contadictions but accuse me of that. Leo can talk to an alien called Toir in front of us, and recreate and bring back to life a Pharaoh and the War God at an Egypt night, but someone like me who was there cannot talk to Leo? I have spoken to spirits all my life, the Emin was all about them. They knew that when i joined. You really must be in the wrong place. You do not have to believe me - most here will find it hard to believe but I am certainly entitled to discuss it. Yet your first response was to call for me to be banned and the thread closed down. And really JennM that has been your way ever since. Never mind i know you mean well but wish you had not been a teacher for so long. imagine someone walking in to Putney, finding Leo talking to an alien and demanding the place be shut down and the man banned from speaking to the people there. Well that is what you are doing in stopping me communicate what Leo has said to me and wants passed on to Ethra. It may be crazy but that JennM is real Emin.

reve x

13-09-2012, 06:54 PM
If you write about Devereux here and say it is private and nothing to do with me and that i should not comment.

I didn't say it was private. I said that particular discussion was nothing to do with you. But you decided to stomp all over it with your hob(goblin)nail boots anyway. Of course you can comment but if you were an honest man, you'd admit the reason you commented then was to discredit someone I respected, because you were annoyed with me for not simply accepting your claims of connection, nature-sensing, leyline detecting, whatever you call it. Which is spiteful and silly. If you were genuinely accomplished in these fields you'd welcome the work of people like Devereux. Instead, you decided he lacks British sensitivity to our land because he is American - even though he's actually British (you'd done a quick internet search on his name and not paid attention to what you found) - and even claimed, if I recall, that he was working with the US secret service to - oh, I don't remember; the usual nonsense. Needless to say, you didn't apologise for this but instead found something else to slag him off about.

Never mind i know you mean well but wish you had not been a teacher for so long. imagine someone walking in to Putney, finding Leo talking to an alien and demanding the place be shut down and the man banned from speaking to the people there. Well that is what you are doing in stopping me communicate what Leo has said to me and wants passed on to Ethra. It may be crazy but that JennM is real Emin.

This is just plain nuts and speaks for itself.

13-09-2012, 08:42 PM
its funny how it works. Leo mentioned pinky & perky a few months ago. I could not stand them in the 60's and put them out of my mind then. But watching Yesterday Channel Sound of the Sixties - 1964 -Shadows, Beatle, Stones etc who comes up but the two little pigs - one playing a drum, the other a guitar and squeaking out this take off of a well known song as they did. And then delight after delight, the big then famous puppet/dummy comes out - Lenny the Lion. Roy Orbison is now singing.. Just thought i would mention it JennM as I have not seen these singing piglets in a good forty years. But what convinced me it was a clairvoyant experience was that while I was adding up the chance of this right now and thinking of Leo - who appears but Lenny. You have to laugh - or you are supposed to but we had rather fixed and pained grins here. Real time stuff - The Supremes when that what was what they were called - must finish the Hollies singing. What this all says is something else. Just a little thing or confirmation

reve x

14-09-2012, 12:05 AM
He is a funny character really and I think plays up to the secret society bit. In Jay-Z's early career his image was of the smooth italian mafia boss that was popular at the time (Goodfellas film) this was before his massive fame and he had a 'conspiracy' song of his own that mentions illuminati and evil spirits in the form of temptations but is rather cryptic in the style of typical 5% influenced rap word play

D'Evils lyrics

"Dear God, I wonder can you save me"
"Illuminati want my mind, soul, and my body"
"Dear God, I wonder can you save me"
"Secret society, tryna keep they eye on me"
"Dear God, I wonder can you save me"
"Illuminati want my mind, soul, and my body"
"Dear God, I wonder can you save me"
"I can't die, I can't die, I can't die"

[Verse 1]
This shit is wicked on these mean streets
None of my friends speak
We're all tryin' to win, but then again
Maybe it's for the best though
Cause when they're sayin' too much
You know they're tryin' to get you touched
Whoever said illegal was the easy way out
Couldn't understand the mechanics and
The workings of the underworld, granted
9 to 5 is how to survive, I ain't trying to survive
I'm tryna live it to the limit and love it alive
Life ills, poisoned my body
I used to say 'f***mic skills,'
I never prayed to God - I prayed to Gotti
that's right it's wicked
That's life I live it
ain't asking for forgiveness for my sins, ends
I break bread with the late heads
Picking their brains for angles on
All the evils that the game'll do
It gets dangerous, money and power is changin' us
And now we're lethal, infected with D' Evils


[Verse 2]
We used to fight for building blocks
Now we fight for blocks with buildings that make a killing
The closest of friends when we first started
But grew apart as the money grew and soon grew black-hearted
Thinking back when we first learned to use rubbers
He never learned so in turn I'm kidnapping his baby's mother
My hand around her collar, feeding her cheese
She said the taste of dollars was shitty so I fed her fifties
About his whereabouts I wasn't convinced
I kept feeding her money 'til her shit started to make sense/cents
Who could ever foresee
We used to stay up all night at slumber parties
Now I'm tryna rock this bitch to sleep
All the years we were real close
Now I see his fears through her tears
Know she's wishing we were still close
Don't cry, it is to be
In time I'll take away your miseries and make it mine
D' Evils


[Verse 3]
My flesh, no nigga could test
My soul is possessed by D'Evils in the form of diamonds and Lexuses
The excesses, got me doing sticks
Like "homie, you don't know me, but the whole world owe me, strip!"
Was thought to be a pleasant guy all my f*****life
So now I'm down for whatever, ain't nothing nice
Throughout my junior high years it was all friendly
But now this higher learning got the Remy in me
Liquor's invaded my kidneys
Got me ready to lick off, mama forgive me
I can't be held accountable
D' Evils beatin' me down boo
Got me running with guys, making G's
Telling lies that sound true
Come test me, I never cower
For the love of money, son, I'm giving lead showers
Stop screaming, you know the demon said it's best to die
And even if Jehovah Witness, bet he'll never testify
D' Evils


Today Jay-Z has a business mogul image - it is PR I think as there are very few successful rappers in his age bracket and the image is sort of accepted as cool in a james bond way. Snoop Dogg Dr Dre and Nas would be the others who are still successful inn their 40's. Snoop Dogg is trying to get his image togeher as well with the rasta thing. Dr Dre's new protoge is ready to break the mould as he is a pacifist from gang ridden Compton in Los Angeles.
Nas was the one who carried on tradition and is why he is still popular despite not selling very well. Him and Jay Z have a bitter history between them that escalated in 2001 and nearly resulted in violence like the 2pac and Biggie Smalls murders 5 years earlier.


The Jay-Z–Nas feud was a hip hop rivalry during the early-2000s (decade) and one of the most high-profile feuds in the history of hip hop music. It was characterized by comments (both on- and off-record, figuratively as well as literally) between Shawn "Jay-Z" Carter and Nasir "Nas" Jones from 2001 until resolved in 2005. The conflict received public attention owing to the critically and commercially successful nature of both artists. It is one of the most followed feuds in hip hop history, especially after the aftermath of the East Coast–West Coast hip hop rivalry of the 1990s.[1][2]

Nas and Jay-Z connected through their respective relationships with rapper The Notorious B.I.G. aka "Biggie Smalls". Biggie went to high school with Jay-Z.[4] As Jay-Z and B.I.G. began to make their reputations in the music industry, they collaborated on songs for each other's albums, Reasonable Doubt and Life After Death, respectively.[5] Nas initiated a self-professed rivalry with Biggie. Biggie addressed Nas in his song "Kick in the Door," which also targeted several other rappers

When The Notorious B.I.G. was murdered on March 9, 1997, New York's hip-hop scene began to look for someone to fill the void as its greatest artist.[6] Attention fell on Nas, one of New York's top-selling hip-hop artists, and Jay-Z, who was beginning to build a career buzz of his own. Both rappers made what was seen as thinly veiled references to each others' status as the "King of New York".

Jay-Z made the first public overtures toward a conflict at Hot 97's Summer Jam hip hop festival in 2001. Reciting the opening verse to the first single for his album The Blueprint, "Takeover", a diss to Nas and Mobb Deep, which ended with the line, "Ask Nas, he don't want it with Hov. No!"[8]

Nas responded with an attack on Jay-Z during a radio freestyle over Eric B. & Rakim's "Paid in Full" beat, dissing most of the R.O.C. members — specifically Jay-Z, Freeway, Memphis Bleek, and Beanie Sigel. Initially, the freestyle was untitled but was it was later called "Stillmatic" (which also became the title of Nas' next album) or "H To The Omo" (a homophobic reference to Jay-Z's song (H.O.V.A.).[9]

In 2001, Nas put out the single "Ether," finally addressing the feud with Jay-Z in full. The song mocked Jay-Z's early years as an aspiring young rapper and accused him of being a misogynist, as well as exploiting The Notorious B.I.G.'s legacy by supposedly stealing his lyrics.

Nas appeared on Power 105 and attacked both the music industry's control over hip hop and the rappers who he saw as submitting to it, including Jay-Z, his label mate Cam'ron, Nelly, N.O.R.E.: "Y'all brothers gotta start rapping about something that's real.... Rappers are slaves."[citation needed]

Despite "Ether" beating out "Supa Ugly" in a Hot 97-sponsored radio phone-in poll,[11] Jay-Z and Nas continued to feud, including Jay-Z criticizing Nas for his apparent hypocrisy on his The Blueprint 2: The Gift & the Curse album's title track. On "Blueprint 2", Jay-Z begins his diss against Nas in the second verse by attacking his street credibility. Jay-Z also says that while he himself is more successful, he is more generous than Nas with his money. Jay goes on to mock Nas' spiritual persona from Stillmatic, and after accusing Nas of using both this[clarification needed] appearance and convoluted lyrics in an attempt to appear more intelligent than he is.

In the lines immediately after, he also accuses Nas of being contradictory for putting out commercial/materialistic-oriented tracks and then denouncing materialism and misogyny on other songs. Jay-Z also says, "My momma can't save you this time / Niggas is history" referencing the public apology his mother made him make after "Supa Ugly" was released.

A long story but in the end they reconciled in 2006 and made a thoughtful song together called 'Black Republican'

nas - black republican - YouTube

[QUOTE][Hook: Jay-Z]
I feel like a Black Republican, money I got comin' in
Can't turn my back on the hood, I got love for them
Can't clean my act up for good, too much thug in 'em
Probably end up back in the hood, I'm like "Fuck it then"

[Verse 1: Jay-Z]
Huddlin' over the oven, we was like brothers then
Though you was nothin' other than a son of my mother's friend
We had governin', who would of thought the love would end
Like ice cold burns, all good things
Neva thought we sing the same song that all hood's sing
Thought it was all wood-grain, all good brain
You wouldn't bicker like the other fools talk good game
Neva imagine all the disasters that one good reign
Could bring!, should blame, the game, and I could
It's kill or be killed, how could I refrain?
And foreva be in debt, that's neva a good thing
To the pressure for success can put a good strain
On a friend you call best, and yes it could bring
Out the worst in every person, even the good and sane
Though we rehearsed, it's just ain't the same
When you put in the game at age sixteen
Then you mix things: like cars, jewelry, and miss things
Jealousy, ego, and pride, and this brings
It all to a head like coin, cha-ching
The root of evil strikes again, this could sting
Now the team got beef between the Post and the Point
This puts the ring in jeopardy - indefinitely

[Hook: Nas]
I feel like a black militant takin' over the government
Can't turn my back on the hood, too much love for them
Can't clean my act up for good, too much thug in 'em
Probably end up back in the hood, I'm like, "fuck it then"

I'm back in the hood, they like, "Hey Nas" (Uh)
Blowin' on purp', reflectin' on they lies
Couple of fat cats, couple of A.I.'s
Dreamin' of fly shit instead of them gray skies
Gray 5's, hatah's wishin' our reign dies
Pitch, sling pies, and niggas they sing, "why"?
Guess they ain't strong enough to handle their jail time
Weak minds, keep tryin', follow the street signs
I'm standin' on the roof of my building
I'm feelin' - the whirlwind of beef, I inhale it
Just like an acrobat ready to hurl myself through the hoops of fire
Sippin' 80 proof, bulletproof under my attire
Could it be
The forces of darkness, against hood angels of good
That forms street politics
And makes a sweet honest kid turn illegal for commerce
To get his feet out of them Converse
That's my word

14-09-2012, 07:39 AM
was Leo's favourite word. I am amazed by the post above by fg. This stuff is real poetry - i prefer to read it than hear them rapping it. It is true education and explains exactly what their propblem is and how to resolve it. I note how as fg says they are trying to clean up their acts to conform with the richer society they have entered. It is like the Mafia baron buying expensive art work and race horses. But it does not work nor pay off the debts from when controlled by d'evils. To do that you need to change your attitude. It can be done. That is all Leo's joke about Pinky & Perky is about. If you have a bad and destructive attitude - change it. The 'hood' has as many good mothers who love their children and are trying to raise them to succeed and yet be god fearing. It is not all gangsters abusing women and extorting money. Everywhere has both sides and you can change them by supporting those trying to make a difference the right way. We all agree that storming embassies is the wrong way when the culprit is a bad and prejudiced attitude. Then education rather than brainwashing is required and the tolerance they are missing can be nurtured.

If you are new to this thread why not pick oin any page in the last 90 odd. I bet you find something just for you that you did not know. Correct me if I am wrong but that is how clairvoyance and cartomancy works.

China's warships enter Japanese sovereign waters today. Bad news and a bad attitude - this is not how to compromise. China can afford to buy these islands and share the profits if they sit on oil. They need to talk not frighten each other like the gangsters in New York who end up killing each other from fear.

reve x

14-09-2012, 07:42 AM
95324 views today, another sharp increase over the last two days thanks to Tor!

reve x

I am sure you can work it out - some good news for a change


14-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Do you think that our very own sociopath Ted Bundy [reve] will ascend to heaven when this thread reaches 1OO,OOO. To sit on the right hand of Leo ?
Only the 5 or 6 'known of posters need respond as the 1OO,OOO observers obviously cannot write. Excluding any rappers as well please...T

“Once you're dead you're made for life.” Jimi Hendrix

14-09-2012, 09:37 AM
your language has improved Tor now please get on to your attitude. Meanwhile a bit more on the main troublemaker for this world, and the thread.

In Egyptian his name is Hrw. I would suggest that this is the classic 'hero' of mythology. Almost all are warriors and indulge in violent pastimes. There are two Horuses. One called the elder Horus is the brother of Osiris, Set, Isis and Neptyhys. We do not hear too much about him. The younger is the baby that Isis has with her husband's corpse which she has laboriously collected from its scattered remains and a wooden phallus (the original is lost swallowed by a fish or hippo in the Nile). He grows into the hawk war god and does frequent battle with Set as he wants to rule Egypt and thus the world.

Horus was certainly introduced to Egypt in antiquity and one can see that in the elder Horus. But the younger one came with the Hurrians and Horites somewhat later and is connected therefore with the angels that 'fell' to Mount Hermon (Hor Mountain). He is a different kettle of fish. What one has on the ground is a nation of farmers - the fellahs who work the black alluvial soil of Egypt to this day. The bedouin came from the East and are nomadic shepherds moving to grazing where available. Much more hostile than the fellah and worshippers at that time of the hawk war god Hor. They invaded Northern Egypt several times but it was not really in their nature to 'settle'. In the form of armies they continously invaded Canaan and beyond, but would lose these possessions because of their unsuitability to live in and govern cities. They are the shepherd kings and their god likes to live in a tent or tabernacle.

Obviously in the Middle East we have a mix of these two types throughout history. Sumeria was also a river based civilization, as was the Jordan valley. And constantly invaded. Genghis Khan is a classic nomad warrior from further east.

Even in America the sheep farmers were at war with the farmers and ranchers. The one accusing the other of putting up fences to prevent their nomadic grazing rights and the others accusing the sheep of destroying anything green in their path, especially the crops they tried to grow and grass for their cattle.

So it was with Egypt. This one long continual civilization was based on its fellah and rich agricultural land fed by the annual flood. But the first pharaoh stamped his authority on them and turned them into second class citizens, subdued by chariots. In the end the fellah and their ancient fertility god Set lost control and became slaves. So it was amusing to them when the invading Semitic Horites were eventually forced into slavery themselves at the time of Moses, reduced to becoming building labourers. Temple builders in fact.

Today you can see their archetype in the Masons who tend to be the directors and managers of this world. Who help each other to maintain this control. It is there with the original farming and olive producing Palestinians subdued by the temple building master race, who had emerged from persecution and a form of slavery similar to Moses Israelites, but this time in Europe. It is a repetitive cycle we need to break. We do not need to fight and control each other, we need to work together and save our nature. That is why the classless early Egyptians who nurtured their land and allowed the floods to ferlilise it had a sustainable life which the warriors, who are parasites in fact, did not. The hawk can only survive if there are plentiful food supplies for its prey, ditto the lion. But there are not.

reve x

14-09-2012, 10:19 AM
The rap wars are ongoing , here is a story from this week

Chicago's hip-hop scene is heating up, and not necessarily because of the music. Earlier today, the city's newest wonderkid Chief Keef took to Twitter to diss Lupe Fiasco, likely in response to his recent comments that Keef and the gangster generation he represents "scares" him. The 18-year-old Interscope signee threatened to "smack" Lupe, and referred to him as a "hoe ass n***a" and a "lil bitch."


Lupe fiasco a hoe ass nigga And wen I see him I'ma smack him like da lil bitch he is #300

Mr. Fiasco was not slow to respond, only the MC, famed for his socially conscious outlook, fought hate with love--and rightfully so. In a series of tweets addressed directly to Keef, the rapper stated his love for the young Chicago kid, expressed empathy towards his circumstances and urged him to take a different approach in life. You can read his wise words below:


i love u lil bruh @ChiefKeef...i really really do from the bottom of my f***** heart. I know that street s*** like the back of my hand.


ive seen it in every way you can possibly imagine and its nothing to be proud of @ChiefKeef it TAKES and TAKES till there is nothing left


i choose not to indulge becuz its lil guys that look up to me so i try and show them a better way @ChiefKeef i aint try to be BE better


I'm trying to DO better @ChiefKeef as we all should. We were born with no expectations to make it. born in the hood, live there die there..


I cant go 4 that @ChiefKeef & i cant let the people i love, including you my nigga, go 4 that either. We kings not f***** savages and goons

Chief Keef has since claimed his Twitter account was hacked; not directly making reference to the situation with Lupe, but certainly insinuating his innocence in the war of words. Let's just hope this means the potential beef has been thrown off the heat before it could cook. You can read his tweet below:


my twitter has been hacked I think I'm making a new one dumb hating ass people #DontWannaSeeAYougNiggaShine

14-09-2012, 10:58 AM
Reuters today:

In private conversations, sources close to Netanyahu have voiced a clear preference for Obama's opponent in the forthcoming election - Republican contender Mitt Romney.

Some Israeli press commentators say the right-wing Netanyahu is seeking to undermine Obama, with whom he has had notoriously testy relations, and bolster Romney, who has accused the White House of throwing "Israel under the bus".

They have also been quick to play up the close ties between the Israeli leader and casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, one of Romney's most generous financial backers who also bankrolls the fervently pro-Netanyahu Israel Hayom daily.

In his interview with Hayom, Netanyahu appears to take another swipe at Obama, questioning his administration's assurance that it will not let Iran develop the bomb.

"But what if the United States doesn't take action? That's the question that must be asked," he said.

An official in his entourage insisted that Netanyahu's sole concern was Iran. "The Iranians are not taking any notice of the U.S. presidential elections, so we cannot afford to either."

However, some senior members of the prime minister's Cabinet have urged him to halt public criticism of Obama and have queried his insistence on setting red lines.

In a stinging rebuke, Time magazine columnist Joe Klein accused Netanyahu of not only trying to sway the U.S. election but of also trying to shunt the country into a war with Iran. "Netanyahu's recent behavior is outrageous," he wrote.

The same magazine in May heralded Netanyahu as the "King of Israel" on its front page.

I do not think any americanm really apprecaites what the effects of sanctions are. Iraqis had them for years and their children suffered dreadfully. Iranians are now facing long queues in Tehran for food.

The main worry is that Israel does not have powerful bombs to strike effectively UNLESS they use their nuclear warheads.

The next worry is what haoppens when you bomb a power station and uranium processing plant - but think Chernobyl and multiply. A million died with thyroid cancer sionce Chernobyl but noone wants to mention that.

The other big worry is that the Prime Minister in Israel does not care as this is all part of the plan. Stir up Arab protest, evict Arabs, demolish Mosque, build Temple. Stop thiks now or talk about it publicly in US and UK so we can decide as people not governments.

reve x

14-09-2012, 02:02 PM
'As above so below' that saying often quoted by Leo and others applies to the Isis mysteries too. Scientists only really found this out in conclusively in 2008 but Leo used to say planets give birth to moons and is right. But the thing that caused Earth, or Isis, to give birth to her little moon with fleece as white as snow, they are calling Theia. It may seem destructive but without this massive collision and the subsequent torrent of water carrying comets, there would be no life here to speak of. It is so obviously planned, but the divine plan is a bit hidden to the human that does not consider that a planet and a universe can actually think and work out how to procreate life.

Anyway this is:

wikipedia: Theia

The name of the hypothesized protoplanet is derived from the mythical Greek titan Theia, who gave birth to the Moon goddess, Selene. This designation was proposed initially by the English geochemist Alex N. Halliday in 2000 and has become accepted in the scientific community. According to modern theories of planet formation, Theia was part of a population of Mars-sized bodies that existed in the Solar System 4.5 billion years ago. Indeed, one of the attractive features of the giant impact hypothesis is that the formation of the Moon fits into the context of the formation of the Earth: during the course of its formation, the Earth is thought to have experienced dozens of collisions with such planet-sized bodies. The Moon-forming collision would have been only one such "giant impact" and, perhaps, the last.

Basic model of impact

Astronomers think the collision between Earth and Theia happened at approximately 4.53 Gya; about 30-50 million years after the Solar System began to form. In astronomical terms, the impact would have been of moderate velocity. Theia is thought to have struck the Earth at an oblique angle when the latter was nearly fully formed. Computer simulations of this "late-impact" scenario suggest an impact angle of about 45° and an initial impactor velocity below 4 km/s. Theia's iron core would have sunk into the young Earth's core, and most of Theia's mantle accreted onto the Earth's mantle, however, a significant portion of the mantle material from both Theia and the Earth would have been ejected into orbit around the Earth. This material quickly coalesced into the Moon (possibly within less than a month, but in no more than a century). Estimates based on computer simulations of such an event suggest that some twenty percent of the original mass of Theia would have ended up as an orbiting ring of debris, and about half of this matter coalesced into the Moon.

The Earth would have gained significant amounts of angular momentum and mass from such a collision. Regardless of the speed and tilt of the Earth's rotation before the impact, it would have experienced a day some five hours long after the impact, and the Earth's equator and the Moon's orbit would have become coplanar in the aftermath of the giant impact.

Not all of the ring material would have necessarily been swept up right away; the thickened crust of the Far Side suggests that a second moon about 1,000-km in diameter formed in a Lagrange point of the Moon; after tens of millions of years, as the two moons migrated outward from the Earth, solar tidal effects would have made the Lagrange orbit unstable, resulting in a slow-velocity collision that would have 'pancaked' the smaller moon onto what is now the Far Side.

The planet had been what is termed a 'violent' place before the impact but after it 1000 foot tides cut across it twice a 6 hour day travelling a huge speeds between high and low, the moon was ten times as large and ten times closer exercising a massive pull on the arriving oceans, mixing them with the minerals in the mantle and allowing the first proteins to form.

So it has been below too when violent civilizations have invaded quieter lands, mixing things up violently but effectively. All necessary to create the sanctuary for the 'human' (rainbow bodied ones), which is certainly the long term aim of the planets. But now the violent shaking of the cauldron has done its magic we no longer need that violence which enabled the creation we see around us, and the longer the violence continues against the divine plan, the less of our creation will survive. It is now threatened as never before. One would expect divine wrath at any unnecessary sabotage of the plan, but it is part of the plan or the 'words' spoken at the beginning - the logos. The logos said that we would have to come to this point, the latter days, with just such a threat, to develop into what this was all about. Not a mass murderer of the created life but the reason for it. Our creation was too beuatiful not to have gods here to observe and delight in it - we are their homes.

If it is that we are unjustifiable and destroying our habitat then, unless we destroy ourselves which is quite likely, Apophis will come here and wipe us out. It is the asteroid that passses by frequently, much closer than any other major body capable of doing this.

Isn't it strange how international scientists agree on the names of these objects using the mythical names of Greek legends. In terms of time travel it is true to say what goes around, comes around.

reve x

14-09-2012, 02:34 PM
It was US election year in 1968. Wearing a skull cap and addressing a packed synagogue Robert Kennedy pleaded for Israel to be given aid in preference to Vietnam and be immediately sent 50 Phantom jet fighters, be given control of Jerusalem and that the US stop providing any aid to its neighbours who were being supplied by Russia. The Arab world was in dismay, Johnson had alre4ady turned against the Arab world and towards Israel. A young Palestinian, mind you one who had lived in the Us since he was 12, was angry and assassinated Kennedy sealing the fate of Palestinians for the next 50 years at least. Sirhan is still in Californian prison having been refused parole. Interestingly overheard in prison some time before the assassination his old enemy Jimmy Hoffa confided to another inmate that the Mafia had a contract out on Kennedy, who was also deeply unpopular with some in the South.

History repeats but we never learn from it.


14-09-2012, 02:43 PM
RK was killed (5 others shot too) in the Ambassador Hotel in California in an election year 44 years ago focussing on US/Israeli relations.

Film made in California also election yearsimilar focus (Jewish votes in US) Ambassador (to Libya) and 3 others killed.

Questions were asked as to whether there was actually another assassin hiding in the kitchen not caught, which seemed likely, but officially it was decided Sirhan had acted alone. Of course.


14-09-2012, 06:20 PM
the assassination of Robert Kennedy has attracted a lot of conspiracy theories among them:

wikipedia: ".......Cesar admitted that he did own a .22-caliber Harrington & Richardson pistol, and he showed it to LAPD sergeant P. E. O'Steen on June 24, 1968. When the LAPD interviewed Cesar three years later, however, he claimed that he had sold the gun before the assassination to a man named Jim Yoder. William W. Turner tracked down Yoder in October, 1972. Yoder still had the receipt for the H & R pistol, which was dated September 6, 1968, and bore Cesar's signature. Cesar therefore had sold the pistol to Yoder three months after Kennedy's assassination despite Cesar's claim in 1971 that he had sold the weapon months before the murder. Author Dan Moldea wrote that Cesar submitted years later to a polygraph examination performed by Edward Gelb, former president and executive director of the American Polygraph Association. Moldea reported that Cesar denied any involvement in Kennedy's assassination and passed the test with flying colors.

Manchurian candidate hypothesis

Another conspiracy theory relates to a Manchurian candidate hypothesis that Sirhan was psychologically programmed by persons unknown to commit the murder and that he was not aware of his actions at the time and that his mind was "wiped" in the aftermath by the conspirators so he would have no memory of the event nor of the persons who "programmed" him. This theory was supported by psychologist and hypnosis expert Dr. Eduard Simson-Kallas after 35 hours of work with Sirhan in San Quentin prison in 1969 after his conviction which Sirhan claimed then, and to this day, to have no memory of the assassination or aftermath.

The woman in the polka-dot dress

Kennedy campaign worker Sandy Serrano reported seeing a girl in a polka dot dress running from the scene with a man accompanying her, and claimed that the girl exclaimed, "We shot him! We shot him!". When asked to whom the girl was referring, Serrano reported that the girl said, "We shot Senator Kennedy!" Another witness, Evan Freed, also saw the girl in the polka dot dress . This report was connected by alternative theorists such as with another report of a girl wearing a polka dot dress who was supposedly seen with Sirhan at various times during the evening, including in the kitchen where the assassination took place.Serrano stated that preceding her supposed encounter with the polka-dot dress girl, she heard a series of shots..... wiki

Always helpful to see who gains from an assassination. They seldom leave their finger prints on the gun, the ones who take out the contract. With RK out, the Democrats relied on Hubert Humphrey. He had run against JFK and lost, been Vice President for a while and was now running against RK. He was winning until the night of the result in California which Bobby won, and at the victory speech for which was killed. The tables turned at that primary and at last it looked like RK would be the Democrat choice until 13 shots rang out (Sirhan's gun held 8 rounds) that night - as alleged by some, not others.

That year the Republicans had Nixon standing, a man who had served with Eisenhower and run the country when E had his heart attack. But he had to get past Mitt Romney's dad, George Romney. He did that to the surprise of some as George did not himself sell as well and Richard, then Nixon thrashed Hubert Humphrey and almost completed two terms as president - getting out Vietnam and into trouble with Watergate.

But at the time of the assassination any of them could have been President - Nixon, Romney, or Humphries. They all had their visions but none would have made it past the resurgent Kennedy. On the other hand not exactly a problem that would require the CIA to intervene, as is also alleged as usual.

It was another iconic moment in history - along with JFK, Luther King and Lennon etc where you feel that history changes as a result. But not always for the worse. They are the equivalent of the old regicides in Egypt, the scapegoats for the world who like Jesus rise again and become powers in the spirit world. There have been a spate of such regicides of late, always a sign, military and heroic despots.

Not that anything really changes - not radically. Violence still rules, or Mars as Nostradamus wrote. Our Horus, until he changes his attitude as he does eventually - we are assured. But I for one cannot rest totally assured in what was said to have been written so long ago. People fib.

reve x

15-09-2012, 09:36 AM
It was suggested about JFK's alleged killer Oswald and later theories suggested a hit man fired the bullet not the dippy Oswald. But is it possible?

Some matters concerning the assassin of Robert Kennedy are curious to say the least, but is it possible to programme and incite someone to try to kill such an important person? Was it possible in 1968? Could that be what has happened with this ‘film’ upsetting all the Arabs and made by a ‘Christian Arab’?

“wiki: Sirhan is a Christian Palestinian Arab who was born in Jerusalem and who strongly opposed Israel. In 1989, he told David Frost, "My only connection with Robert Kennedy was his sole support of Israel and his deliberate attempt to send those 50 bombers to Israel to obviously do harm to the Palestinians." …

Kennedy was shot three times, once in the head and twice in the back, with a fourth bullet passing through his jacket, and died nearly 26 hours later. Five other people at the party were also shot, but all five recovered…..

Despite Sirhan's admission of guilt, recorded in a confession made while in police custody on June 9, a lengthy trial followed. The court judge did not accept his confession and denied his request to withdraw his not guilty plea so that he could plead guilty. Years later, Sirhan recanted his confession, claiming not to remember making it…..

Sirhan's defense counsel, which included Attorney Grant Cooper, had hoped to demonstrate that the killing had been an impulsive act of a man with a mental deficiency, but when Judge Walker admitted into evidence pages from three of the journal notebooks that Sirhan had kept, it was clear that the murder was not only premeditated, but also "quite calculating and wilful…

During Sirhan's testimony, Cooper asked him to explain his reasons for the attack on Kennedy. Sirhan launched into "a vicious diatribe about the Middle East conflict between Arab and Jew". Defense counsel Emile Zola Berman, who was Jewish, was upset by Sirhan's statements and expressed his intentions to resign [yet again] from the defense team. Berman was eventually talked out of resigning by Cooper and stayed until the end of the trial.

During the trial, the defense primarily based their case on the expert testimony of Bernard L. Diamond, M.D. a professor of law and psychiatry at University of California, Berkeley, who testified that Sirhan was suffering from diminished capacity at the time of the murder. Sirhan's behavior throughout the trial was indeed bizarre, and at one point, he became outraged during testimony about his childhood.
Sirhan was convicted on April 17, 1969, and was sentenced six days later to death in the gas chamber. Three years later, his sentence was commuted to life in prison, owing to the California Supreme.....

Sirhan's lawyer Lawrence Teeter later argued that Grant Cooper was compromised by a conflict of interest and was, as a consequence, grossly negligent in defense of his client. The defense moved for a new trial amid claims of set-ups, police bungles, hypnotism, brainwashing, blackmail and government conspiracies. On June 5, 2003, coincidentally the 35th anniversary of Kennedy's assassination, Lawrence Teeter petitioned a federal court in Los Angeles to move the case to Fresno. He argued Sirhan could not get a fair hearing in Los Angeles, where a man who helped prosecute Sirhan is now a federal judge: U.S. District Judge William Matthew Byrne, Jr. in Los Angeles was a deputy U.S. attorney during Sirhan's trial, and part of the prosecutorial team. Teeter, who had been trying since 1994 to have state and federal courts overturn the conviction, argued that his client was hypnotized and framed, possibly by a government conspiracy. He was granted a June 30 hearing. During the hearing, Teeter referred to testimony from the original trial transcripts regarding a prosecution eyewitness to the attack, author George Plimpton, in which he said that Sirhan looked "enormously composed. He seemed—purged." This statement coincided with the defense's argument that Sirhan had shot Kennedy while in some kind of hypnotic trance. The motion was denied. Teeter died in 2005, and Sirhan declined other counsel to replace him. On November 26, 2011, Sirhan's defense teams filed new court papers for a new trial, saying that "expert analysis of recently uncovered evidence shows two guns were fired in the assassination and that Sirhan's revolver was not the gun that shot Kennedy."…

Sirhan believed he was deliberately betrayed by Kennedy's support for Israel in the June 1967 Six-Day War, which had begun exactly one year to the day before the assassination. During a search of Sirhan's apartment after his arrest, a spiral-bound notebook was found containing a diary entry which demonstrated that his anger had gradually fixated on Robert Kennedy, who had promised to send 50 fighter jets to Israel if he were elected president. Sirhan's journal entry of May 18, 1968, read: "My determination to eliminate R.F.K. is becoming the more and more of an unshakable obsession...Kennedy must die before June 5th". They found other notebooks and diary entries which contained his growing rage at Zionists, particularly at Kennedy; his journals also contained many nonsensical scribbles, which were thought to be his version of "free writing"…..

Later in prison, Sirhan stated that his motivation was anger fueled by liquor. An interview with Sirhan in 1980 revealed new claims that a combination of liquor and anger over the anniversary of the 1967 Arab-Israeli war triggered his actions the night he assassinated RFK. "You must remember the circumstances of that night, June 5. That was when I was provoked," Sirhan says, recorded in a transcript of one of his interviews with Mehdi, later president of the New York-based American-Arab Relations Committee. "That is when I initially went to observe the Jewish Zionist parade in celebration of the June 5, 1967, victory over the Arabs. That was the catalyst that triggered me on that night." Then Sirhan said, "In addition, there was the consumption of the liquor, and I want the public to understand that..."
At a June 30, 2003 hearing, Lawrence Teeter, in an attempt to get Sirhan a new trial, claimed that Sirhan had been hypnotized into firing at Kennedy and that he may have been using blanks; that Sirhan couldn't possibly have fired the fatal shot from where he was standing; that prosecutors blackmailed his defense attorney to throw the case and that police and government agencies whitewashed or bungled investigations. The motion was denied…..

A parole hearing for Sirhan is now scheduled every five years. On March 2, 2011, after 42 years in prison, Sirhan's 14th parole hearing was held, with Sirhan represented by his current attorney, William Francis Pepper. At his parole hearing, Sirhan testified that he continues to have no memory of the assassination nor of any details of his 1969 trial and confession. Pepper also repeated the claim, that Sirhan's lawyers previously stated in the past, that Sirhan's mind was "programmed" and then "wiped" by an unknown conspiracy behind the assassination which is why Sirhan has no memory of the murder or of the aftermath. His parole was denied on the grounds that Sirhan still does not understand the full ramifications of his crime.” wikipedia

So quite apart from the woman in the polka dot dress and Cesar who admitted drawing a gun on Kennedy but denied firing it and lied when he later said he sold it before the event we have this intriguing possibility. Was it possible in 1968 to incite using perhaps drugs and certainly alcohol to do something which he says he cannot remember. I really do not know but whatever really happened has caused enormous problems for the Palestinians. I have no doubt that the Copt Christian who has made this film about Muhammed will cause enormous problems for the 10% Christians living in Egypt. Lockerbie caused nothing but expensive difficulties for the Arab super power Libya and 9/11 had caused a lot of problems for Afghanistan and many others. But that is not to say they were engineered to do that.

Just sayin

Reve x

let us hope that everyone's main focus is to find the truth.

15-09-2012, 09:50 AM
My take on this is even more far fetched. I would say that his behaviour, the diary and free writing show possession by the spirit world. Is that possible? well history seems to show that. An angel dictated the Koran, Abraham had the idea he had to sacrifice his son and heard voices. Leo was inspired by 'Merlin' and not only talked publicly to Toir but heard this spirit's vioice. I could go on but it is not an acceptable theory these days. I am ridiculed for suggesting that Leo can talk to me in dreams etc.

I would suggest they beef up the protection around Obama and Romney anyway as history has this strange habit. Look at that Lincoln/Kennedy curious array of 'coincidences'. God forbid an Iranian or Palestinian is found guilty of killing our President or contender. All hell would be let loose. Protection from one assassin is difficult enough, but from one obvious one and one hidden it must be a very exacting task fior the security services, especially if some of the communications are in the spirit world!

reve x

15-09-2012, 11:06 AM
In the local mosque yesterday the Iman said "God does not need anyone to fight for him"

Also, Leo would chose somebody saner to talk to, methinks...T

15-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Idont think he had much choice Tor, anyone who might have been clairvoyant got that smashed out of them in the Emin. I took 20 years restoring my natural clairvoyance and practising it after I left. It happened after I buried the Roman coin of Emperor Leo under an oak sapling on Hampstead Heath on 20/02/2002 so he could pay the ferryman and then found this crow following me around, talking to me. After that I had full blown astral dreams with him. I dare say he had initial regrets or subsequent regrets - I certainly did but we still talk, even about you two. I can imagine why he did not choose you or JennM. You would have refused the possibility that he could talk to you and poured another drink, or lit another joint would you not, in the name of sanity. Leo did tell Ethra he would contact her though and I can only assume she still does not know or, like you, considers this impossible and a lie.


15-09-2012, 04:16 PM
anyone who might have been clairvoyant got that smashed out of them in the Emin. I took 20 years restoring my natural clairvoyance and practising it after I left.

Another throw-away massive assumption, Reve. You knew everybody in the Emin, did you, including all those who joined after you left? Another example of what you do: first, dismiss the possibility of anyone else having ability; second, install yourself as the only practitioner, therefore the only authority. Which in turn 'explains' why 'Leo' had to come to you. Which is pretty much you just saying, "You're all wrong, so I must be right." Wow, talk about humility. Needless to say, we're still waiting to see any actual wisdom emerge from this association you claim with Leo. So far it's not been much above the level of Doris Stokes telling someone that ex-Mum says she left the hairbrush on top of the wardrobe.

15-09-2012, 04:55 PM
I have developed an interest in comets today.

“wikipedia lComet Encke is believed to be the originator of several related meteor showers known as the Taurids (which are encountered as the Northern and Southern Taurids across November, and the Beta Taurids in late June and early July).
Near-Earth object 2004 TG10 may be a fragment of Encke.
Effects on Earth
More than one theory has associated Encke's Comet with impacts of cometary material on Earth, and with cultural significance.
The Tunguska event of 1908, probably caused by the impact of a cometary body, has also been postulated by Czechoslovakian astronomer Ľubor Kresák as a fragment of Comet Encke.
A Han Dynasty silk comet atlas, featuring drawings of comets believed by Victor Clube and Bill Napier to be related to the breakup of Encke's Comet in the past
A theory holds that the ancient symbol of the swastika appeared in a variety of cultures across the world at a similar time, and could have been inspired by the appearance of a comet from head on, as the curved jets would be reminiscent of the swastika shape (see Comets and the swastika motif). Comet Encke has sometimes been identified as the comet in question. In their 1982 book Cosmic Serpent (page 155) Victor Clube and Bill Napier reproduce an ancient Chinese catalogue of cometary shapes from the Mawangdui Silk Texts, which includes a swastika-shaped comet, and suggest that some of the comet drawings were related to the breakup of the progenitor of Encke and the Taurid meteoroid stream. Fred Whipple in his The Mystery of Comets (1985, page 163) points out that Comet Encke's polar axis is only 5 degrees from its orbital plane: such an orientation is ideal to have presented a pinwheel like aspect to our ancestors when Encke was more active.” wikipedia

Reve: It is back on November 21 and visits every 3.3 years (losing about a day each time) day or so each one, was only the second comet discovered (By Enke). Halleys comet is around every 75 years. In a vivid dream I had in 1976 the sky was full of these spirals as we were bombarded and I call that my end of the world dream. I had been in the Emin a year or so by then.

Enki is the Sumerian God:

The main temple to Enki is called E-abzu, meaning "abzu temple" (also E-en-gur-a, meaning "house of the subterranean waters""), a ziggurat temple surrounded by Euphratean marshlands near the ancient Persian Gulf coastline at Eridu. He was the keeper of the divine powers called Me, the gifts of civilization. His image is a double-helix snake, or the Caduceus, very similar to the Rod of Asclepius used to symbolize medicine. He is often shown with the horned crown of divinity dressed in the skin of a carp.
Considered the master shaper of the world, god of wisdom and of all magic, Enki was characterized as the lord of the Abzu (Apsu in Akkadian), the freshwater sea or groundwater located within the earth. In the later Babylonian epic Enûma Eliš, Abzu, the "begetter of the gods", is inert and sleepy but finds his peace disturbed by the younger gods, so sets out to destroy them. His grandson Enki, chosen to represent the younger gods, puts a spell on Abzu "casting him into a deep sleep", thereby confining him deep underground. Enki subsequently sets up his home "in the depths of the Abzu." Enki thus takes on all of the functions of the Abzu, including his fertilising powers as lord of the waters and lord of semen.
Early royal inscriptions from the third millennium BCE mention "the reeds of Enki". Reeds were an important local building material, used for baskets and containers, and collected outside the city walls, where the dead or sick were often carried. This links Enki to the Kur or underworld of Sumerian mythology. In another even older tradition, Nammu, the goddess of the primeval creative matter and the mother-goddess portrayed as having "given birth to the great gods," was the mother of Enki, and as the watery creative force, was said to preexist Ea-Enki. Benito states "With Enki it is an interesting change of gender symbolism, the fertilising agent is also water, Sumerian "a" or "Ab" which also means "semen". In one evocative passage in a Sumerian hymn, Enki stands at the empty riverbeds and fills them with his 'water'". This may be a reference to Enki's hieros gamos or sacred marriage with Ki/Ninhursag (the Earth) (see below).
His symbols included a goat and a fish, which later combined into a single beast, the goat Capricorn, recognised as the Zodiacal constellation Capricornus. He was accompanied by an attendant Isimud.” …
The cosmogenic myth common in Sumeria was that of the hieros gamos, a sacred marriage where divine principles in the form of dualistic opposites came together as male and female to give birth to the cosmos. In the epic Enki and Ninhursag, Enki, as lord of Ab or fresh water (also the Sumerian word for semen), is living with his wife in the paradise of Dilmun where
"The land of Dilmun is a pure place, the land of Dilmun is a clean place,
The land of Dilmun is a clean place, the land of Dilmun is a bright place;
He who is alone laid himself down in Dilmun,
The place, after Enki is clean, that place is bright"
Despite being a place where "the raven uttered no cries" and "the lion killed not, the wolf snatched not the lamb, unknown was the kid-killing dog, unknown was the grain devouring boar". Nevertheless Dilmun had no water and Enki heard the cries of its Goddess, Ninsikil, and orders the sun-God Utu to bring fresh water from the Earth for Dilmun. As a result
"Her City Drinks the Water of Abundance,
Dilmun Drinks the Water of Abundance,
Her wells of bitter water, behold they are become wells of good water,
Her fields and farms produced crops and grain,
Her city, behold it has become the house of the banks and quays of the land."
The subsequent tale, with similarities to the Biblical story of the forbidden fruit, repeats the story of how fresh water brings life to a barren land. Enki, the Water-Lord then "caused to flow the 'water of the heart" and having fertilised his consort Ninhursag, also known as Ki or Earth, after "Nine days being her nine months, the months of 'womanhood'... like good butter, Nintu, the mother of the land, ...like good butter, gave birth to Ninsar, (Lady Greenery)". When Ninhursag left him, as Water-Lord he came upon Ninsar (Lady Greenery). Not knowing her to be his daughter, and because she reminds him of his absent consort, Enki then seduces and has intercourse with her. Ninsar then gave birth to Ninkurra (Lady Fruitfulness or Lady Pasture), and leaves Enki alone again. A second time, Enki, in his loneliness finds and seduces Ninkurra, and from the union Ninkurra gave birth to Uttu (weaver or spider, the weaver of the web of life).
A third time Enki succumbs …..


Is there a link? I don’t know but it is an interesting solar body and our most frequent comet visitor. And like most comets it is a water carrier that built our oceans in the first place. And that is both Enki and Encke.

However my interest was caught as I just watched the St Leger - the last of the five Classic British horse races. This is one of those angelic races. We were all expecting the wonder horse Camelot to complete his treble of Classics to match Nijinski. But he is better at a shorter distance and going faster - he came second. Also highly fancied was Michelangelo. He could only make 3rd. And trailing in behind them was Ursa Major in the 9 (ennead) horse race. But the clear winner was the Arab owned Encke. A lot of money was on Camelot to win. Who knows what the angelic wagers were on the. Angels being defeated by a nature spirit - neter or god. Doubtless we will find out as we usually pay the cost of our masters’ recklesness.

Reve x

15-09-2012, 06:39 PM
That was quite bizarre..I started listening to a piece of music my friend had uploaded called "playonthecomet" and then checked out this forum where Reve's post is about a sudden interest in comets.

Nothing more to add...carry on...


15-09-2012, 07:49 PM
Come T
Well is as good as any sign were going to get from reve, So 'carry on saviour tell us, tell us what did he say ?

15-09-2012, 08:51 PM
When Michelle Obama invited Common to perform poetry at the White House, conservative news outlets decried the soft-spoken rapper as a vile, violence-supporting thug. The Obamas didn't flinch, and Common performed at the event.

"Do you understand how cool that is?" Common told HuffPost Entertainment at a promotional appearance for Case-Mate, a company that makes stylized cell phone accessories. "Do you know how that feels? I came from the South Side of Chicago wanting to be a rap artist and make videos. And now the president is like, 'no, you still come to the White House. We got your back.' It's just incredible."

Obama has continued to support hip-hop. He recently introduced Jay-Z via video at the Made in America Festival and displayed a familiarity with Nicki Minaj's rap style in an interview. "I think that he's a very intelligent and wonderful human being," Common said. "He understands that hip-hop is expression and about individuals. And I don't think he's an individual who's going to let what other people think of him change his perspective. And those are the type of people that I highly respect. The hip-hop community is part of America, so the fact that he embraces it means he's embracing young America, Americans abroad and people in other places. I love that he cares."

The 40-year-old Brooklyn resident was at Times Square's Best Buy Theater for Case-Mate's fashion show. Black Eyed Peas chanteuse Fergie was also on hand, posing for many a photo and speaking with reporters about everything from iPhones to jump roping. Fergie and Common seemed pretty game, and remained chipper when they politely refused a photographer's request to pretend to talk to each other on the phone.

The highlight of the evening was undoubtedly Common's performance. Over the course of his forty-five minute set, he ripped through a sampler of his impressive catalogue and ad-libbed over classics from Notorious B.I.G. and Jay-Z. He even dropped the mic for a bit of break dancing. It was an explosive performance replete with inspirational non-sequiturs ("Whatever change we can do, it starts with you") and a freestyle (available above) that ended on a familiar note for the Chicago-bred performer: "People out there, I don't want no drama / Y'all better vote for Obama."

Common's from Chicago, so the recent murder of local rapper Lil JoJo was also fresh on his mind. The teenager was shot shortly after tweeting his location -- another tragic incident in a broader narrative of on-going gang-related violence. Rapper Chief Keef appeared to have mocked the slain teen on Twitter, causing Lupe Fiasco (who's also from Chicago) to say he's done with rap.

"First, God bless that young brother's soul," Common said Thursday. "There are a lot of brothers and sisters who are not involved in the rap community that are dying. So it's not just about rap for me. We need to get to a place that's like, 'man, this is not how we're going to do each other.' Hip-hop is supposed to help you elevate, or go higher. We don't want us to lose anything over this -- just gains, to gain greatness."


15-09-2012, 10:46 PM
In 2002 East London a similar culture to hip hop began taking the local youth by storm the local gangs where climbing to the rooftops of council estates and setting up their own broadcast stations to make their young voices heard. The Bethnal Green boy Dizzee Rascal and took it a step further and took advantage of his secondary schools computer equipment to practice his musical talent and in time used it to leave the criminal lifestyle for good. He said “everything I do is for the music – I want to master it like Bruce Lee mastered martial arts."

His music is a mixture of UK Garage and hip-hop beats with an extremely broad palette of influences, ranging from metal guitars to drill and bass synth lines, eclectic samples and even Japanese court music.[11] Dizzee Rascal also makes extensive use of un-coupled octuplets and double and triple couplets in his machine-gun-paced staccato lyrics. Like most grime artists, he uses "beats born of ringtones, video games and staticky pirate-radio sounds"[12] Dizzee's tracks are traditional grime in that the beats are often asymmetrical and make it difficult to dance to his music. His vocal performance is also distinctive; he uses a fast style of rapping which blends elements from garage MCing, conventional rap, grime and ragga. He raps about the same issues a confused generation of youth tends to; broken family, faithless mentors and a lack of support.[13] Dizzee's videos are similar to many grime and garage artists in the UK. They are frenetic and fast, often matching the speed of the rapping; this is especially visible in the videos to "Fix Up, Look Sharp" and "I Luv U." Although his fast style of rapping and his subject matter are nothing more than ordinary in the UK, Dizzee Rascal's diversity nonetheless separates him from other UK rappers.

Dizzee Rascal worked closely with his mentor Wiley, who created one of the first grime tracks, called "Eskimo."[14] Grime is today still considered underground, despite Dizzee's large mainstream exposure.[14] Dizzee's DJ, DJ Semtex, says, "the biggest conflict I have is with major labels because they still don’t get it."[15] Andy Bennett and Jon Stratton highlight in the book Britpop and the English Music Tradition (2010) how Rascal alongside Sway and M.I.A. created music that explored new soundscapes with new technologies, with lyrics expressing anger at Britain's "racialized" subordination of minority groups and that the innovation that generates new musical forms like grime and dubstep that are, inevitably, politically engaged. The chart success of grime-influenced artists like Rascal is heralded as a signal in the way that white Britons are adapting to a new multicultural and plural musical mix in contrast to previous bands.[16]

Dizzee had an ongoing feud, from late 2002, with fellow popular underground Grime MC Crazy Titch, which began when a fight broke out between the pair during a set on the popular pirate radio station Deja Ju FM. The set which features many seminal early Grime artists was filmed, which was rare for the era, and has accumulated over a million views on YouTube[18] and resulted in the two exchanging diss tracks. Since his incarceration on murder charges in 2005 Crazy Titch has said he no longer has any issues with Dizzee Rascal who has not since commented on the affair. There has been some suggestion, however, that the chorus of Dizzee Rascal's hit song Bonkers references Crazy Titch's incarceration.

That early footage of the creators of it all on the top of that council estate building in Bow:

*Conflict DVD* (Dizzee Rascal and Crazy Titch Hype) - YouTube

Sadly the music is almost entirely negative and the message is lost like the generation it comes from. It has been blamed many times for 'violent Britain' by members in parliament but of course they havent listened to more than one song and tried to empathise with it so wont realise it is that simple and seems to be more of a cycle.

Last year Channel 4 gave the Grime MC's four hour long broadcasts to show a story that show the all too familiar cycle of vendetta. They where a massive success and probably did more help than the music at making their story heard.

Upon completion of the series, Top Boy received overwhelmingly positive feedback from critics. The drama premiered with a solid 1.1 million viewers and managed to maintain its audience share over the course of its four night run.[2] Tom Sutcliffe, writing in The Independent, said: "The drama involved virtually no preaching at all, but a sense of morality was everywhere, as bad conscience flickered in the face of the toughest characters and grief hit the culpable and the blameless alike. Best of all, it always found a little time for something other than plot, whether it was banter on stairwells or the melancholy beauty of the city at night. Seriously good television."[3] Ed Cumming of The Daily Telegraph said: "These are minor quibbles. On the whole this was a well-made, convincing drama, with an excellent ensemble cast. Ashley Walters, once of rap group So Solid Crew and with real-life arrests for firearms crimes, knows the world he is portraying. The two boys, Ra'Nell and Gem, did a good job of balancing adolescent aggression with naïve vulnerability. When Ra'Nell left a message on his mentally ill mother’s phone, you knew it was half from a sense of responsibility towards her and half because he just wanted his mum. I wonder if he’ll still need her by the end of Thursday night."

'Though if you look hard enough there are some positive messages hidden amongst their songs. Wiley talks about his 'tunnel vision' maybe he has the Dharma Eye. And I like this bit of rapping by the Rascal:

"Deep in the manor where the poverty’s visible
There’s not a lot sweet, so most look miserable
Most cave in to the devil, took the wrong path
Some kept their faith, n still pray for a miracle
Soccer stars emerge from the curb
Up and coming MCs struggle to be heard
Boydem searching for the next jailbird
Thugs talk murder n they live by their word
Shotters keep the money going round
Kids go astray, most never get found
I’ve noticed, there’s a ghetto in every town
N the skies are empty, because the stars are on the ground"

15-09-2012, 11:40 PM
The night journey has all to do with this from the moslem point of view and is why they will fight to the death over the last stone standing.

wikipedia:The Isra is the part of the journey of Muhammad from Mecca to Jerusalem. begins at a time when Muhammad was in the Masjid al-Haram, when the archangel Gabriel came to him, and brought Buraq, the traditional heavenly steed of the prophets. Buraq carries Muhammad to the Masjid Al Aqsa, the "Farthest Mosque", in Jerusalem. Muhammad alights, tethers Buraq to the Western Wall and performs prayer, where on God's command he is tested by Jibriel.[5][6] It was told by Anas ibn Malik that Muhammad said: Jibril brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk, and I chose the milk. “Jibril said: ‘You have chosen the Fitrah (natural instinct).’ In the second part of the journey, the Mi'raj (an Arabic word that literally means “ladder”[7]), Buraq takes him to the heavens, where he tours the seven circles of heaven, and speaks with the earlier prophets such as Abraham (ʾIbrāhīm), Moses (Musa), John the Baptist (Yaḥyā ibn Zakarīyā), and Jesus (Isa). Muhammad is then taken to Sidrat al-Muntaha – a holy tree in the seventh heaven that Gabriel is not allowed to pass. According to Islamic tradition, God instructs Muhammad that Muslims must pray fifty times per day; however, Moses tells Muhammad that it is very difficult for the people and urges Muhammad to ask for a reduction, until finally it is reduced to five times per day.

The place referred to in the Quran as "the farthest mosque" (Arabic: المسجد الأقصى‎, al-Masğidu 'l-’Aqṣà), from Al-Isra, has been historically considered as referring to the site of the modern-day Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. This interpretation was advanced even by the earliest biographer of Muhammad—Ibn Ishaq—and is supported by numerous aḥādīth. The term used for mosque, "masjid", literally means "place of prostration", and includes monotheistic places of worship but does not exclusively lend itself to physical structures but a location, as Muhammad stated "The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying...". It is believed to have been built by the Prophet Jacob and then restored by the Prophet Solomon.When Caliph Umar conquered Jerusalem after Muhammad's death, a prayer house was rebuilt on the site. The structure was expanded by the Ummayad caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan and finished by his son al-Walid in 705 CE. The building was repeatedly destroyed by earthquakes and rebuilt, until the reconstruction in 1033 by the Fatimid caliph Ali az-Zahir, and that version of the structure is what can be seen in the present day.

Many Western historians, such as Heribert Busse and Neal Robinson, agree that Jerusalem is the originally intended interpretation of the Quran. Muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem, but Muhammad changed this direction, the Qibla, to instead direct Muslims to face towards the Kaaba in Mecca on the basis of having received divine intervention." wikipedia

Another IRA is an individual retirement account eg:

The Secret Behind Romney’s Magical IRA

By William D. CohanJul 15, 2012 11:30 PM GMT+0100
The most mysterious of the unexplained mysteries about Mitt Romney’s considerable wealth is how he was able to amass between $21 million and $102 million in his individual retirement account during the 15 years he was at Bain Capital LLC.

How did he do it, given the relatively small amounts that the law permits to be contributed to such a plan on an annual basis? Romney has not explained this conundrum, and seeing as he wants to become president, he would be wise to start talking -- if for no other reason than there might be many Americans who would like to emulate what he did.

During Romney’s tenure at Bain Capital -- from 1984 to 1999, although a recent Boston Globe article uncovered Romney having a role at Bain until 2002 -- the firm used a so-called SEP-IRA, which is like a 401(k) retirement plan but is funded entirely by the employer and has a much higher maximum contribution: about $30,000 annually during the period Romney was at Bain. Assuming Romney maxed out these tax-deferred contributions, he would have invested roughly $450,000 in his SEP-IRA during his years at Bain.http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-15/the-secret-behind-romney-s-magical-ira.html

Al-Isra certainly sounds like Israel. It is interesting that the name 'Ira' which means anger has other meanings too - in Sanskrit she is Saraswati, the Earth and Wisdom, in Hindu 'watchful', and also 'watchful' for the Hebrew ie 'the watcher', the High Priest of David, Polynesian Sky Goddess, Peaceful in Russia & Scandinavea & Italy, the Life Principal for the Maori, some say she is Hera mother of the gods, others that the name means Hero, but in these last two centuries we seem to have been fighting IRA's, Iraq and now getting angry with Iran. Irate we may be but perhaps endangering our planet for the actions of a few trouble makers. Ira is Horus and it seems he has a peacful side too as did Jesus. I hope..

Perhaps it ends by changing your name!
reve x

16-09-2012, 12:04 AM
Dan Hancox is the best writer we have who knows what is going on and how it relates to the troubles of last summer. As usual the culture mad Guardian has it's eye on the ball here and let the smart man interview the 'godfathers of grime'. In multicutural innercity London it is a class thing and not a race thing but it was all started through racial tension last year and escalated into a base majority of a certain age and class.
I feel that picture is one that has not accidentally been repeated to us to demonise this young group as the rebels without a cause

Rap responds to the riots: 'They have to take us seriously'

In the wake of the riots, British urban music has been accused of promoting a culture of entitlement. Here, Professor Green, Lethal Bizzle and Wiley describe a world that politicians have chosen to ignore – and explain how grime is helping to give it a voice


'This didn't just happen out of the blue, it's been building for years.' Photograph: Kerim Okten/EPA

"These are sad days man, sad days; it's just … surreal." Six months ago Lethal Bizzle and I had talked about how grime had exploded into the political sphere, soundtracking the winter's youth and student protests in London, but now the 28-year old rapper is much less upbeat, surveying the wreckage in the city he loves. "Watching it on TV's been even worse – it doesn't even feel like it's London, or Britain – it doesn't seem real. You know when you see Iraq, foreign wars on TV…" he tails off, before reflecting on the Walthamstow in which he grew up. "I care because I'm from these places, and I know what happens. I've been through stuff I wouldn't want my kids, my friends, my fans, anyone to go through. It makes you feel lost, like you're in a corner."

Two decades ago Chuck D famously described rap music as "the black CNN" – a means of describing the kind of daily lives which the real news network would never care to investigate; by this token, grime and UK rap is the BBC News 24 of the British urban working-class – not necessarily black, not necessarily young, but mostly so. As the glaziers and magistrates go to work after four nights of riots across London and the UK, the search for understanding and the finger of blame are simultaneously pointing towards the MCs and rappers who Bizzle told me in January were "the real prime ministers of this country".

Grime describes the world politicians of all parties have ignored – its misery (eg Dizzee Rascal's Sitting Here), its volatile energy (Lethal Bizzle's Pow), its gleeful rowdiness (Mr Wong's Orchestra Boroughs), its self-knowledge (Wiley's Oxford Street), its local pride (Southside Allstars' Southside Run Tings), down even to minor specifics. When some Londoners expressed their surprise and admiration at the quasi-vigilantism of "Turksec" in Dalston and Hackney, the north London Turkish community who fought off looters with a mixture of togetherness and baseball bats, most grime fans' first thought was Wiley's offhand lyric: "I had this Turkish bredrin from school, all his family were gangsters."

So what are the grime MCs saying now? In the era of frenetic 24-hour news, live-blogging and Twitter, the response has been quick, honest and instinctive. I was initially directed to Tottenham on Saturday evening after seeing a tweet from Wretch 32 that enigmatically read: "Wish I was there. If you know u know." It didn't take long to work out where, and what, he was referring to. His fellow MCs Skepta and Chipmunk, all from Tottenham, had already posted RIP messages in memory of Mark Duggan. Another leading Tottenham MC, Scorcher, tweeted that Saturday night: "25 years ago police killed my grandma in her house in Tottenham and the whole ends rioted, 25 years on and they're still keepin up fuckry"; it was the death of his grandmother Cynthia Jarrett, who died of a stroke following a police raid on her home, which sparked the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985 (Scorcher was born the following year). In a tweet, Scorcher commended well-known community activist Stafford Scott for "talking up the tings like a bludclart general" on the news.

Some artists were reluctant to speak out at length, posting either short messages on Twitter that carefully balanced support for young people and condemnation for the rioters, or publicising initiatives helping people who suffered in the looting and arson. Their reticence has drawn ire from other musicians, such as DJ Calvin Harris, who seemed to think the urban music scene should be making some kind of joint public appeal for calm in London's inner cities: these "role models", he tweeted, "need to speak the fuck up [and] help stop this".

Many of them have – and their words offer far more insight than most of the hand-wringing currently going on in Britain's desperately limited "public debate". The one key difference between the fulminations of politicians and media commentators, and people who live in the middle of riot-affected areas, was the lack of surprise. Everyone in the UK was shocked, but not everyone was surprised – this latter category seems to apply to Britain's urban stars, as well as young people I talked to on the streets of Tottenham on Saturday, as a double-decker bus burned in the background. "It's not just happened out of the blue," says Bizzle. "The kids have seen the opportunity to take the piss now – because they feel like they've been taken the piss out of their whole lives – but it's been going on for years."

For Professor Green, a top 10 artist, like Chipmunk and Wretch, and one of the MCs who has been most eager to illuminate the causes of the riots, it's a story of a country that has elected to forget about many of its young people. "What needs to be understood here is there is a lot of anger in the underclass, and a lot of the youth aren't quite sure where to aim their anger," he told me by email. "There are also a lot of underprivileged children who've grown up without boundaries, without the love, care and education a child should have. We grow up with less than most, but at the same time have everything we don't have rubbed in our faces; we're desensitised to drug dealing, drug taking, stealing and violence from the moment we are allowed out to play, as it exists on our doorsteps."

This idea of a country of divided cities is one that resonates for Bizzle, too. "People come to central London and think 'Oh this is a lovely place', but you go a couple of miles down the road and you see what's going on. London is not a happy place, and the world can see that now. Robbery. Arson. Theft. Murder: it's been going on for years, but the government's been looking the other way. I see the riots and looting as young people thinking 'we've got an opportunity to answer back to the government', even though it's the wrong way to do it – because it's not harming them, it's harming innocent people. But I think they're just frustrated, trying to be heard."

They're not the only ones – Bizzle has put his message directly to David Cameron before, and feels his warnings went unheeded. In 2006 he wrote an article for the Guardian calling him a "donut", for blaming knife crime on the influence of rap. "I read that article again for the first time in a while yesterday," he tells me. "If [Cameron] had paid attention to what I said, it would have been a whole different story right now. Because what I said was 'if you don't pay attention to the youth, it's going to get silly' – and look what's happening!" He cites his own song, Babylon's Burning the Ghetto, as an example of a record that carried a message. "I was saying this five years ago. They have to take us seriously, because we've got more influence and more input on the youth than they have." It will come as little surprise that he wasn't impressed with Cameron's holiday in Tuscany. "Your country's burning down, and you're in fucking Italy drinking tea, and eating croissants – for three days!" He pauses for breath, calms down. "But then the Conservatives have never cared about working-class people." His main accusation is one of wilful neglect. As he says in his song You'll Get Wrapped, speaking to the same "donuts" in parliament: "Have you been to where we live? Have you been to society? You can't point your fingers if you don't know what you're talking about".

For Professor Green, there's the same mixture of affection for his city and a sense of its challenges if you're not one of the lucky ones. "London is a wonderful place to grow up," he says. "The fact it's multicultural, the fact we aren't segregated, there's a lot of good that comes from this. The other side to it, is that for many people it is a tough and cold place to grow up. As a kid on Northwold Estate [in Hackney], for the most part we had to make our own fun. Nobody had much, and the olders we looked up to and spent time under the wings of were already some way involved in what most of us youngers one day would be. A lot of people went home to a less than ideal familial situation and there wasn't any avenue to voice the frustration born from this."

If it needs spelling out, no one has drawn pleasure from the riots. Professor Green sums up the mood: "To see the city I know and love in so much pain and despair is incredibly saddening. It's not really something that can be put into words." And yet, in remarkably speedy "breaking news" style, Britain's MCs and rappers are putting it into words – already. When I speak to Bizzle, he predicts "riot music" will soon be on its way, responding to what's happening. By the following morning, it's arrived. In only two days we have had Genesis Elijah's raw, captivating a cappella UK Riots: "We all came together last night/ for that, I'm grateful – maybe we'll call that a breakthrough." Bashy and Ed Sheeran's Angels Can't Fly seems a bit rushed, but then it presumably was, and features Bashy's usual thoughtful style: "Where I'm from, you don't see angels, man just see rainfall/ Slip and you could get a brain-full." Reveal's I Predict a Riot, with crushing inevitability, samples Kaiser Chiefs, but is otherwise powerful: "How many youths," he asks, "are in this to make a difference?" Meanwhile dancehall artist Fresharda's response, Tottenham Riot, calls for "more ghetto yout' [who] stand firm and stay strong/ planning dem future in education".

The most extraordinary of the bunch is also the most full-on. They Will Not Control Us, a snarling litany of dispossesion and rage against politicians, police and the media, will be a bit strong for some stomachs – and not only because of the wailing chorus lifted from the Muse track Uprising. By a little-known rapper called 2 K Olderz, it's nothing if not direct. "Dear Mr Prime Minister …" it begins, "was you travelling on London transport the day the bombs went off?/ How about you go and pay rent to the landlord, earn shit money doing a labouring job?/ We're living like shit in this country, while you've got your feet up living nice and comfy/ Well we know where the problem is, the people acknowledge this: stand up to the politics."

Talking about firing RPGs at parliament is not what you could call a constructive political response, but it would be ridiculous to say the song is not explicitly political – in its broad-ranging, nihilistic anger against all authority. While the nexus of the two may be contemptible, politics and criminality are not mutually exclusive: as one infamous Blackberry message stated: "Fuck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot … we don't need pussyhole feds to run the streets and put our brothers in jail so tool up, it's a free world so have fun running wild shopping."

It's a sensibility that arguably chimes with the bleak amorality of what's known as "road rap" – as opposed to grime, or UK hip-hop, all of which have distinct styles, musically and lyrically. Road rap is the scene that gave rise to Giggs, now signed to XL Recordings, and has flourished at street level via YouTube videos and CD "mixtapes" in places such as Peckham, Brixton and Hackney. It's relentlessly nihilistic, in a way that grime, with its roots in UK garage clubs, and lyrical contrasts between aggression and more witty, playful tracks about partying and relationships, never has been. On the classic track that brought Giggs to a wider audience, generally known simply as Track 9 freestyle, he describes a world in which "everyone's suit [is] the same colour as Batman's". It's an underground scene often believed to overlap with street-gang culture and so-called postcode wars.

"Harming one's own community is entirely mindless, but why would someone care for a community that doesn't care for him?" says Professor Green. So is it political? "They might think of this as an uprising, but the anger is misdirected and conveyed in such a way will not have any kind of positive effect. There isn't much sense to any of it."

If the mentality of some of the young rioters and looters is directed against authority figures, then despite what Calvin Harris might suggest, that includes their "role models" too. Wiley, widely considered the godfather of grime, speaking on the phone from a recording studio in Jamaica, where he is working on his new album, expressed a mixture of empathy and hopelessness.

"These kids won't listen to me. I wish they would, but they won't," he says wearily. "In London, they love you so much, but they can hate you in a click of the fingers. If I went down to the streets of Woolwich, to tell these kids to stop, and if they saw Wiley out on the streets right now … I'm like Jesus in this situation! If I was out there, they'd all be trying to crucify me, so they could say 'yes, we got Wiley!'.

"It could be 50 Cent, it could be P Diddy, it does not matter," he continues. "The way the kids see it, everyone in this stupid world is out for themselves, even the parents, and everyone just wants to have everything. I don't even think they're doing it because they want money, they're doing it just because they want to run the place."

So is this about trying to get a feeling of power?

"I hope it doesn't give them a feeling of power, because causing mayhem like that does not mean you're powerful. If the Queen does actually get serious and says right, army, go and lick down anyone who's not white who you think is causing a problem, and people start getting shot … these kids feel like they're ready to go against Robocop. They're testing the patience of the Queen, the government, the police. They're saying 'we're going to do what we want!' – and I'm thinking 'no you're not, because when the police get a grip on it, you're going to be either banged up, or dead'."

With the inevitable nationwide hunt for scapegoats, the articles blaming rap for its violence and promotion of a culture of entitlement are already arriving; as if this music was the only manifestation of aggression and rampant consumerism in western society. First among the self-appointed experts in the relationship between black culture and recent events, Paul Routledge, writing in the Mirror, blamed "the pernicious culture of hatred around rap music, which glorifies violence and loathing of authority (especially the police but including parents), [and] exalts trashy materialism and raves about drugs". At least Marge Simpson had the wit to criticise it for "encouraging punching, boastfulness, and rudeness to hoes" when she banned Bart from going to a rap concert.

More seriously, the steadfast refusal to understand, or accept the reality of inequality, underscores all of these criticisms: they have an "irrational anger against the world", wrote Routledge. David Goodhart in Prospect referred to the "nihilistic grievance culture of the black inner city, fanned by parts of the hip-hop/rap scene and copied by many white people", centred on "mainly unjustified" disaffection. "It's as if the routine brutalities and racist humiliations of 30 to 40 years ago have been lovingly preserved," he continued. According to Graeme Archer in the Telegraph, the young people of London's inner cities "speak in a completely made-up accent based on their idea of how gangsters talk", their heads full of "a musical subgenre that mixes blatant pornography with violent, egotistical lyrical content".

Rap music to blame again. For Professor Green, there's an entirely different connection between these debates and the riots: "It's ignorance like that of Paul Routledge that breeds the hate and contempt seen in people during this tragedy. Doing what I do now do has entirely changed my life, as it has done for many of my peers. Why would you want to further silence the already voiceless, and take away from people such as myself something that has had nothing but a positive effect on our lives?"

One of the most controversial accusations in the aforementioned articles is the suggestion of wallowing, the sense that people are somehow enjoying their own oppression, and would never have it any other way. If it does nothing else, the undeniably shallow electro-pop that has made ex-grime MCs such as Tinchy Stryder, Dizzee Rascal and Tinie Tempah wealthy superstars points to a pretty stern determination to rise above disadvantaged beginnings. As Lethal Bizzle argues – with a sincere flurry of "I do not condone this" caveats – people were most likely looting TVs so they could sell them to generate cash, and stories of people looting food, and even nappies, suggests a struggle to even survive, rather than a culture of amoral acquisition we see from our millionaire bankers as much as our pop stars.

So if the solution isn't banning rap music – which would be a pretty stunning move for a liberal democracy – what is it? "The key to all of this is education and understanding," says Professor Green: "I became a lot less angry when I learnt how to communicate, and began to understand exactly where my anger came from and what I was unhappy with." Wretch 32, too, says he wants to see an effort to "rebuild our communities by addressing people's issues, and creating more opportunities for our youth".

What about the Miliband-Cameron mantra of personal responsibility? It's not quite that simple, according to Bizzle. "People on my Twitter feed were saying to me 'well you turned your life around', and yeah sure, I did, but things were a little bit different back then. I remember going to community centres, and going on little trips, staying off the streets. My mum went to college and studied catering and she got a job straight away – she was fortunate then." So what's different on Britain's council estates now? "There are many ways to prevent riots, but the first thing is jobs – I mean fucking hell, where are the jobs? There are no jobs!" He leaves it hanging there for a split second, the frustration lingering on the phone line. "My little brother is 20 now, he's never had a job in his life – he's been trying to get a job for four years. And there's no logic at all in taking away the EMA and putting up uni fees: a lot of these kids who are involved in these riots, they're that age, where it's college, before going on to uni. Taking that away is madness."

"They need to start from ground zero, from these underprivileged kids, their unemployed parents," he continues. "They need to be working hands on with them, not sweeping it under the carpet, like it'll deal with itself, because now it's on their front doorstep." Meanwhile, money has been pouring into what used to be Bizzle's – and grime's – front doorstep, in the Olympic boroughs of Waltham Forest, Newham, Greenwich, Hackney and Tower Hamlets. "They've seen none of it," Bizzle protests, echoing the response of some east Londoners in the aftermath of the riots. "And now the government has to spend all this money to fix the country – if that money had been spent in the community, they wouldn't have had this problem in the first place."

On Monday night, DJ Logan Sama's weekly Kiss FM grime show ended symbolically with a tune by a young MC called Rival titled Talk That. First aired in April this year, it feels eerily prophetic all of a sudden, a grim answer to the questions so many are now asking – though too few will hear. It's a bleak description of drug dealing, violence, limited horizons and fatalism. "They want to know why there's all this anger, all this pain/ They want to know why I talk that violence, talk that slang …" Rival spits, before moving into a chorus that is sung with such stymied emotion that it's all the more poignant, because it's so flat: "I just say, 'It's all I know."

It's an age-old argument – one that most will never change their views about – but the case that music with morally unpalatable messages merely reflects reality, rather than glamourises or incites amorality, needs to be reaffirmed more than ever. If, as Martin Luther King wrote, "a riot is the language of the unheard", a result of "living with the daily ugliness of slum life, educational castration and economic exploitation", then this is Dr King's language rendered as art, and set to music.

16-09-2012, 09:17 AM
are like fire, they spread if they are not controlled. I was at work when the police shot Duggan about 100 yaards from our office. One of my clients knew him well. We could not work when things became dangerous. They burned the old listed building 200 yards from our home and I walked down the high street at the end of the road as far as I was allowed (no cars allowed) and saw what had been done. It was looting pure and simple. And that spread across the country. Psychpathic youths exploded and others followed them into the shops. It is a terrible thing and no one is safe.....like the attacks on US embassies now it is unrelated to the original incitement which is exploited mostly for making money out of a crisis. Our world can dissolve into that quite easily. We have the illusion of control but unleash this madness and there are not enough police or soldiers to contain it, nor willing to be set on fire by tackling vastly suoperior numbers of raging rioters. It was Tottenham that suffered, the ordinary people were horrified and no longer felt safe in their homes. Gangs have been roaming the place for years - estate gangs, neighbourhood or post code gangs, Turkish and now Eastern European even Chinese gangs all got a foothold there in their particular business specialities. Football matches were always hard to control there too.

The 'Arab Spring' has shown the Achilles heal of countries in the face of this. If governments shoot their rioters then they are taken to ICC Court or threatened by the world media but the Riot Act when read meant exactly that. You will be shot. All governments are frightened silly of mass rioting whether for food or ploitical change. We have seen then tip of the surface here. Onme pitbull on a lead is manageable. Thousands running loose are not. Ditto rats and James Herbert's wonderful book on them coming up out of the sewers to take over.

reve x

16-09-2012, 09:26 AM
Mohammed is supposed to have ascended to Heaven from Temple Mount in Jerusalem after his death. Of course for M it was a vision as he did not have a Mosque on it when Gabriel took him there on the night journey. It is about controlling all the other religions. We will all face much worse riots over that hillock.


16-09-2012, 10:31 AM
Scritti Politti did an album in 1999 which featured rap artists Jimahl, Me'Shell Ndegéocello, Mos Def, Redcloud, and Lee Majors. It didn't do very well, mainly because, I suspect, Scritti were more well known for pop music like Pray Like Aretha Franklin and this didn't really fit their demographic. It's an odd album, but I like it. Green Gartside, Scritti's vocalist and lyricist, has stated an interest in deconstructionism, which is (and it took me ages to find this because I couldn't understand AT ALL most of what I read about it):

(from answerplease.infoplease.com - there's lots more on Wiki)
'Deconstructionism is a philosophical theory of criticism (usually of literature or film) that seeks to expose deep-seated contradictions in a work by delving below its surface meaning.'

It doesn't have any specific relevance to the song, but it interested me because it has similarities with what fg has posted about use of language by Hip Hop artists and Rastafarians. Anyway, these are the lyrics, I can't embed songs, but you can find it on YouTube dead easily if you want a listen.

According to the track listing, the rapper here is Lee Majors. Not the bloke in the Bionic Man, obviously.

Prince Amongst Men

RAPPER: Yo, yo watch out, here we come, I never trust no-one
Make my own laws up ever since day one
Make my own rules, I'm a choose my own life
And who are you to say how I spend my nights?
Whether bustin' off steel or I'm bustin' on mikes
Well I'm turning out lights or I'm ready to fight
Trust no-one (no-one), same man who brought me here
Was the same man who left me broke and disappeared

Shed a tear for the future, don't know what it holds
You can have no clothes, look up and strike gold
And the world's so cold I ask my own questions
Find my own answers, learn my own lessons
Count my own blessings, book my own sessions
Worst comes to worst, got my own Smith & Wessons
Don't bother me, I'm screaming, fuck authority
I hate those cats with a suit and a tie

GREEN: Starts to come apart
Our high regard for making marks (and being organised)
It's hard to just discard
Our being smart for losing heart (you've got the Gorgan's eyes)
Run for cover superstars and
Show me that it's over

I'm telling you
Because the man to believe in now
Is just leavin'
You'll never find his likes again

RAPPER: Yes I try to believe in myself and walk surely
You know your boring speaches can't do nothing for me
The world saw me and gave me no other thing
With the prince amongst men, who will soon be king
Sit on a gold throne, yeah rule everything
Or maybe just a page in a young man's dream
Can't really conversate if you're ain't down with my team
Can't really set it straight if you don't the team

So live your own life, how you feel about that?
Well I'm a keep making money and watch my funds stack
They watched the craft stack, I watch the format
Technique is what they lack, I write my own rap
As a matter of fact, when you turn up the track
Make sure it sounds phat, how d'you feel about that?
Yo it's time to rule the world, man your positions
I'm out to the world, peace, I hope you listen

GREEN: Sure, it all depends on circumstances
(But the chance is that you never know)
More than means and ends but only glimpses
(Of an answer then it's time to go)
Run for cover Ubermensch
Show me that it's over

I'm telling you
'Cause we're the men to believe in now
But we're leaving
You'll never find our like again

'Cause we're so crazy
We got that dark in our hearts
So watch your apple carts
'Cause here we go

In duplicate
Indifferent to rain
Indifferent to pain
Indifferent to pain

Never to me, never to me, never to me now
Give it to me, give it to me, give it to me now
Never to me, never to me, never to me now
Give it to me, give it to me, give it to me now.

(Gorgan is spelled like this in every lyrics site I've come across, I don't know if that's an accidential mis spelling that's been copied, or whether that was actually part of the lyrics. Ironically, Gorgan is a city in Iran.)

16-09-2012, 10:49 AM
In the occult names are highly significant. Knowing someone’s secret name gives power. Adam naming things is considered important, if unlikely. Jerusalem is the focus of the 3 main religions but also multi faith organisations. One could imagine a world faith centre there instead of a Mosque or Temple. But it is the name that is interesting, partly because it has stayed the course. I would say it is really Hrwsalam - the resting place of Horus, the war god. Etymology is very interesting so here is some on this for a Sunday morning read, or info dump as some would say.

“wikipedia: Shalim (derived from the triconsonantal Semitic root S-L-M, and also romanized as Shalem, Salem, and Salim) was the name of a god in the Canaanite religion pantheon, mentioned in inscriptions found in Ugarit (Ras Shamra) in Syria. William F. Albright identified Shalim as the god of dusk, and Shahar as god of the dawn. In the Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, Shalim is also identified as the deity representing Venus or the "Evening Star," and Shahar, the "Morning Star".

An Ugaritic myth known as The Gracious and Most Beautiful Gods, describes Shalim and his twin brother Shahar as offspring of El through two women he meets at the seashore. They are both nursed by "The Lady", likely Anat (Athirat or Asherah), and have appetites as large as "(one) lip to the earth and (one) lip to the heaven." In other Ugaritic texts, the two are associated with the sun goddess.
Another inscription is a sentence repeated three times in a para-mythological text, "Let me invoke the gracious gods, the voracious gods of ym." Ym in most Semitic languages means "day," and Shalim and Shahar, twin deities of the dusk and dawn, were conceived of as its beginning and end.
Shalim is also mentioned separately in the Ugaritic god lists and forms of his name also appear in personal names, perhaps as a divine name or epithet.
Many scholars believe that the name of Shalim is preserved in the name of the city Jerusalem.

Further information: Names of Jerusalem
A city called Rušalimum or Urušalimum (Foundation of Shalem) appears in ancient Egyptian records as the first two references to Jerusalem, dating back to the 19th and 18th centuries BCE. The name recurs in Akkadian cuneiform as Urušalim, in the Amarna tablets datable to the 1400-1360 BCE. The name “Jerusalem” is variously etymologised to mean “foundation (Sumerian yeru, ‘settlement’/Semitic yry, ‘found’) of the god Shalem”, ‘dwelling of peace’, ‘founded in safety’, or to mean ‘Salem gives instruction’ (yrh, ‘show, teach, instruct’). The god Shalem has a special relationship with Jerusalem. Others dismiss the Sumerian link, and point to yarah, Semitic/Hebrew for ‘to lay a cornerstone’, yielding the idea of laying a cornerstone to the temple of the god Shalem, who was a member of the West Semitic pantheon (Akkadian Shalim, Assyrian Shulmanu), the god of the setting sun and the nether world, as well as of health and perfection.
The form Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) first appears in the Bible, in the book of Joshua. This form has the appearance of a portmanteau (blend) of Yireh (an abiding place of the fear and the service of God) The meaning of the common root S-L-M is unknown but is thought to refer to either "peace" (Salam or Shalom in modern Arabic and Hebrew) or Shalim, the god of dusk in the Canaanite religion. The name gained the popular meanings "The City of Peace" and "Abode of Peace", alternately "Vision of Peace" in some Christian theology. Typically the ending -im indicates the plural in Hebrew grammar and -ayim the dual, thus leading to the suggestion that the name refers to the fact that the city sits on two hills. However the pronunciation of the last syllable as -ayim appears to be a late development, which had not yet appeared at the time of the Septuagint.
The most ancient settlement of Jerusalem, founded as early as the Bronze Age on the hill above the Gihon Spring, was according to the Bible named Jebus. It was renamed the City of David in the first millennium BCE, and was known by this name in antiquity. Another name, "Zion", initially referred to a distinct part of the city, but later came to signify the city as a whole and to represent the biblical Land of Israel. In Greek and Latin the city's name was transliterated Hierosolyma (Greek: Ἱεροσόλυμα; in Greek hieròs, ἱερός, means holy), although the city was renamed Aelia Capitolina for part of the Roman period of its history.
In Arabic, Jerusalem is most commonly known as القُدس, transliterated as al-Quds and meaning "The Holy" or "The Holy Sanctuary". Official Israeli government policy mandates that أُورُشَلِيمَ, transliterated as Ūršalīm, which is the cognate of the Hebrew and English names, be used as the Arabic language name for the city in conjunction with القُدس. أُورُشَلِيمَ-القُدس‎.

Today, the status of Jerusalem remains one of the core issues in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, West Jerusalem was among the areas captured and later annexed by Israel while East Jerusalem, including the Old City, was captured by Jordan. Israel captured East Jerusalem during the 1967 Six-Day War and subsequently annexed it. Currently, Israel's Basic Law refers to Jerusalem as the country's "undivided capital". The international community has rejected the latter annexation as illegal and treats East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory held by Israel under military occupation.The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and the city hosts no foreign embassies.
According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 208,000 Palestinians live in East Jerusalem, which is sought by the Palestinian Authority as a future capital of a future Palestinian state.
All branches of the Israeli government are located in Jerusalem, including the Knesset (Israel's parliament), the residences of the Prime Minister and President, and the Supreme Court. Jerusalem is home to the Hebrew University and to the Israel Museum with its Shrine of the Book. The Jerusalem Biblical Zoo has ranked consistently as Israel's top tourist attraction for Israelis.” wikipedia

More that meets the 'eye' there anyway. No wonder ot has such a violent history.

Reve x

16-09-2012, 12:17 PM
Quote: Scritti Politti did an album in 1999.
We hosted the launch party for that in clerkenwell, he 'Green ended the evening by puking everywhere, unimpressed with him and his album..T

16-09-2012, 12:24 PM
"The picture of a foot, this is a "b" (voiced bilabial stop/plosive). B's in Egyptian often correspond to m's in Hebrew or Arabic. Thus the root slm in Arabic or shlm in Hebrew, "peace," "to be healthy," etc., is snb in Egyptian. Similarly, b's in such Semitic languages can turn up as m's in Egyptian: Rmnn for Lbnn, "Lebanon."

The issue of the pronunciation of the Ancient Egyptian language has recently become confused by popular presentations that ignore some of the essential and undoubted characteristics of Egyptian hieroglyphics, most importantly that Egyptian, just as today is usually the case with Arabic and Hebrew, did not write vowels -- except in late transcriptions of foreign (mainly Greek) words. For a time French (vowels) and German (no vowels) scholars hotly debated this, but the matter was settled more than a century ago. This is typically not explained to people who are told that their names can be written in such and such a way in hieroglyphics, or who are simply told that the name of the Egyptian sun god is "Ra" -- the pronunciation we find in the recent entertaining but historically absurd movies Stargate (1994) and The Mummy (1999). Well, "ra" may be Tahitian for "sun," but it is not Ancient Egyptian"

reve: SNB may be ‘peace’ on Egyptian but is not necessarily what we are looking for. A more likely match would be SMB - Simba - be powerful, healthy, strength and the lion from Shona-Bantu. SLM may be the root for Solomon but what is the reason for it being attached in Jerusalem. It seems to me more likely that this is a double name, like Ra Atum. But in this case it is Horus Shalem and just relates the Canaanite version Shalem to the Egyptian name Horus.

I better get to the point. There was no letter L in Ancient Egyption. A lion they would have called a ’rion’ and in fact their name is Rw. Leo would be Rio and they adopted the lion hieroglyph for this missing letter only by Ptolemaic or Greek times really enabling them to spell Cleopatra. The Chinese have the reverse problem, rice is hard to say and comes out like lice. This is really why Gardner gives the alternative to SLM. Egyptians also have an 's' and a 'sh' so the fact that we have Salaam and Shalom for the same word suggests the sh. So the angels sang no El. The Egyptians rejected the angel for a long time - to them it would be anger. And that Hrw who appeared - well that was probably the easiest way of pronouncing his real or secret name which we quote all the time unknowingly. Last bit of etymology you may be relieved as we are going out.

“wikipedia…The Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, features various poems that mention Hel. In the Poetic Edda poem Völuspá, Hel's realm is referred to as the "Halls of Hel." In Grímnismál, Hel is listed as living beneath one of three roots growing from the world tree Yggdrasil. In Fáfnismál, the hero Sigurd stands before the mortally wounded body of the dragon Fáfnir, and states that Fáfnir lies in pieces, where "Hel can take" him. In Atlamál, the phrases "Hel has half of us" and "sent off to Hel" are used in reference to death. In stanza 4 of Baldrs draumar, Odin rides towards the "high hall of Hel."

Hel is referenced in the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, various times. In chapter 34 of the book Gylfaginning, Hel is listed by High as one of the three children of Loki and Angrboða; the wolf Fenrir, the serpent Jörmungandr, and Hel. High continues that, once the gods found that these three children are being brought up in the land of Jötunheimr, and when the gods "traced prophecies that from these siblings great mischief and disaster would arise for them" then the gods expected a lot of trouble from the three children, partially due to the nature of the mother of the children, yet worse so due to the nature of their father.
High says that Odin sent the gods to gather the children and bring them to him. Upon their arrival, Odin threw Jörmungandr into "that deep sea that lies round all lands," Odin threw Hel into Niflheim, and bestowed upon her authority over nine worlds, in that she must "administer board and lodging to those sent to her, and that is those who die of sickness or old age." High details that in this realm Hel has "great Mansions" with extremely high walls and immense gates, a hall called Éljúðnir, a dish called "Hunger," a knife called "Famine," the servant Ganglati (Old Norse "lazy walker"), the serving-maid Ganglöt (also "lazy walker"), the entrance threshold "Stumbling-block," the bed "Sick-bed," and the curtains "Gleaming-bale." High describes Hel as "half black and half flesh-coloured," adding that this makes her easily recognizable, and furthermore that Hel is "rather downcast and fierce-looking."….wikipedia

Note like Gabriel, Hel is seen as both feminine and masculine.

The last thing is that the angels ran from a world on the verge of destruction, and ran to the only place available to them - this planet back in time. I daresay they played dinosaurs until stopped in their tracks. But the place they ran from is clearly Atlantis, and rather than in the being an empore in the past is almost certainly NATO now. They will have taken the fire of heaven back, the 'secrets' which are merely our technology and know how, but it suppressed the ancients. They did not take back the big secret according to Enoch in that he says they did not know what was actually going to happen here at this time, but assumed the worst. That is our tiny envelope of opportunity to suggest that our leaders take the psychopath test and if they are, do not lead us to Hel and surprise the angels with a sharp u turn on our journey to oblivion.

Reve x

16-09-2012, 12:56 PM
Quote: Scritti Politti did an album in 1999.
We hosted the launch party for that in clerkenwell, he 'Green ended the evening by puking everywhere, unimpressed with him and his album..T


16-09-2012, 05:48 PM
sorry reve didn't mean to interrupt your flow of useful information, back to whatever your on about, someone, somewhere,out-there wants you, carry on..T
shuttup! reverend, the preachers trying to get an important point across.......

16-09-2012, 06:35 PM
“Shalim (derived from the triconsonantal Semitic root S-L-M, and also romanized as Shalem, Salem, and Salim) was the name of a god in the Canaanite religion pantheon, mentioned in inscriptions found in Ugarit (Ras Shamra) in Syria. William F. Albright identified Shalim as the god of dusk, and Shahar as god of the dawn. In the Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, Shalim is also identified as the deity representing Venus or the "Evening Star," and Shahar, the "Morning Star".” wikipedia

Or Lucifer as this star is also known.. But we can also see Prometheus and Epimetheus. Prometheus the twin that stole the fire of heaven and took it to mankind.

“ According to Plato's use of the old myth in his Protagoras (320d-322a), the twin Titans were entrusted with distributing the traits among the newly-created animals. Epimetheus was responsible for giving a positive trait to every animal, but when it was time to give man a positive trait, lacking foresight he found that there was nothing left.
Prometheus decided that mankind's attributes would be the civilizing arts and fire, which he stole from Zeus. Prometheus later stood trial for his crime. In the context of Plato's dialogue, "Epimetheus, the being in whom thought follows production, represents nature in the sense of materialism, according to which thought comes later than thoughtless bodies and their thoughtless motions. wikipedia"

Epimetheus is called ‘forethought’ which complicates this but as dawn and dusk they represent the opener and closer deities for mankind. It looks as though it is implying that nature was corrupted by the angelic arts, but there is forethought involved. Epimetheus is generally considered foolish, but Prometheus is tried for wickedness. Epimetheus appears at the end of days.

So twins need a looking into. Jacob v Esau are the classic twins but are opposites. Esau is red and hairy and a sheep farmer, but Jacob is a smooth man and incidentally a vegetarian who wrestles an angel the Bible says.

Gemini ‘the twins’ is a constellation and astral sign. The twins are Castor and Pollux so a few more snips:

“ Castor and Pollux are consistently associated with horses in art and literature. They are widely depicted as helmeted horsemen carrying spears. The Pseudo-Oppian manuscript depicts the brothers hunting, both on horseback and on foot.
On votive reliefs they are depicted with a variety of symbols representing the concept of twinhood, such as the dokana (δόκανα – two upright piece of wood connected by two cross-beams), a pair of amphorae, a pair of shields, or a pair of snakes. They are also often shown wearing felt caps, above which stars may be depicted. They are depicted on metopes from Delphi showing them on the voyage of the Argo (Ἀργώ) and rustling cattle with Idas. Greek vases regularly show them in the rape of the Leucippides, as Argonauts, in religious ceremonies and at the delivery to Leda of the egg containing Helen. They can be recognized in some vase-paintings by the skull-cap they wear, the pilos (πῖλος), which was already explained in antiquity as the remnants of the egg from which they hatched.

When the Spartan army marched to war, one king remained behind at home, accompanied by one of the Twins. "In this way the real political order is secured in the realm of the Gods".

Their herōon or grave-shrine was on a mountain top at Therapne across the Eurotas from Sparta, at a shrine known as the Meneláeion where Helen, Menelaus, Castor and Pollux were all said to be buried. Castor himself was also venerated in the region of Kastoria in northern Greece.
They were commemorated both as gods on Olympus worthy of holocaust, and as deceased mortals in Hades, whose spirits had to be propitiated by libations. The rite of theoxenia (θεοξενία), "god-entertaining", was particularly associated with Castor and Pollux. The two deities were summoned to a table laid with food, whether at individuals' own homes or in the public hearths or equivalent places controlled by states….
The image of the twins attending a goddess are widespread[d] and link the Dioscuri with the male societies of initiates under the aegis of the Anatolian Great Goddess…. The Dioscuri are the inventors of war dances, which characterize the Kuretes.

The heavenly twins appear also in the Indo-European tradition as the effulgent Vedic brother-horsemen the Ashvins, the Lithuanian Ašvieniai, and the Germanic Alcis.

The construction of the Temple of Castor and Pollux, located in the Roman Forum at the heart of their city, was undertaken to fulfil a vow (votum) made by Aulus Postumius Albus Regillensis in gratitude at the Roman victory in the Battle of Lake Regillus in 495 BC. The establishing of the temple ~” wikipedia

Here we see they are mounted soldiers - Horians. Associated with the two snakes. Wear skull caps. The two upright beams with two cross beams is the sign for Gemini.
They are supporters of the military Spartans. Buried in the ‘heroon’ - Hrw our Horus. War dances, and Temples, dedicated to them after wars.

The Zoroastrans also have twins and the details of these also help fill in what is missing above about the contending of Set and Horus and how come it is handover time.

“In Zurvanite Zoroastrianism
Main article: Zurvanism
Zurvanism was a branch of Zoroastrianism that sought to resolve the dilemma of the "twin spirits" of Yasna 30.3. The resolution, which probably developed out of the contact with Chaldea, was to have both Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu as twin sons of the First Principle "Time" (Avestan: Zurvan). Zurvanism was strongly criticized as a heresy during the Sassanid period (225-651) of Iranian history, an era in which it probably also had its largest following. Although the monist doctrine is not attested after the 10th century, some Zurvanite features are nonetheless still evident in present-day Zoroastrianism.
Zurvanism's principal feature is then the notion that both Ahura Mazda (MP: Ohrmuzd) and Angra Mainyu (Ahriman) were twin brothers, with the former being the epitome of good and the latter being the epitome of evil. Further, this dichotomy was by choice, that is, Angra Mainyu chose to be evil: "It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.
The mythology of the twins is only attested in the post-Sassanid Syriac and Armenian polemic such as that of Eznik of Kolb. According to these sources the genesis saw Zurvan as an androgynous deity, existing alone but desiring offspring who would create "heaven and hell and everything in between." Zurvan then sacrificed for a thousand years. Towards the end of this period, Zurvan began to doubt the efficacy of sacrifice and in the moment of this doubt Ohrmuzd and Ahriman were conceived: Ohrmuzd for the sacrifice and Ahriman for the doubt. Upon realizing that twins were to be born, Zurvan resolved to grant the first-born sovereignty over creation. Ohrmuzd perceived Zurvan's decision, which He then communicated to His brother. Ahriman then preempted Ohrmuzd by ripping open the womb to emerge first. Reminded of the resolution to grant Ahriman sovereignty, Zurvan conceded, but limited kingship to a period of 9000 years, after which Ohrmuzd would rule for all eternity.”

Reve x

16-09-2012, 07:30 PM
Comet Encke comes closer sometimes than others. Sometimes there is a veritable deluge of fireballs. Jupiter's thunderbolts perhaps - one direct hit (not that it changed much, uranium project merely delayed):

From Oliver August

THE Yellow Emperor, regarded as the founder of the Middle Kingdom, was buried under the impact of a meteorite 5,000 years ago, Chinese scientists said yesterday.
According to the official China Daily newspaper, scientists believe that a 3ft long meteorite fragment found near the Emperor Huangdi’s mausoleum in the city of Xian, in north central legend, according to which Huangdi “died when the land was shattered” and was “broken up by nine dragons”.
The discovery of the meteorite has “great significance in answering questions about the beginning of China’s 5,000-year-old civilization,” the newspaper said.
The experts from the Shaanxi Provincial Coal Geological Prospecting group, who estimated the age of the meteorite, did not detail what method of research led them to this conclusion.
More cynical observers regard the discovery as part of a broad propaganda campaign by the Communist Party to use Chinese history to legitimize its territorial ambitions.
The longevity of Chinese Empire, from Huangdi to Chairman Mao, is meant to justify the latter’s claim to ruling Taiwan, Tibet and Xinijang, which only occasionally were part of China over the centuries.
During a ceremony at Huangdi’s mausoleum, a government official said: “ On this day, we wish to let our Taiwan compatriots know, especially the Taiwan authorities, that we have the same ancestor.”
China sees Taiwan as a renegade province, which it has every right retake by force.
In academic circles, skepticism abounds over Huangdi. He is credited with the word “emperor” and the imperial colour yellow, but Chinese legend also claims that he unified three big tribes in the Yellow River and Yangtze River areas, invented the cart and the boat, and that his dialogues with the Physician Qi Bo were the basis of China’s first medical book, the Yellow Emperor’s Canon of Medicine.
His wife, Lei Zu, appartently taught the Chinese how to weave silk form silkworms and his minister Cang Jie devised the first Chinese characters. The Emperor is said to have reigned from 2697 to 2597BC.
About 50,000 Chinese visited the mausoleum, first erected in the Han Dynasty (206BC to 221AD), to pay their respects last Friday for annualTomb Sweeping Day.
Since 1992, China has spent £16 million on renovating the mausoleum outside Xian

In fact his dating is quote consistent with the Horian angels ‘civilizing’ nature.

“The depiction above is from a
1979 Star Gazers' Gazette. An
article tells of the Great Meteor
Shower of 1833, when the earth
crossed a comet's path. People
all over North America
witnessed the most spectacular
meteor shower in recorded
history. Heaven rained stars at
a rate of 20,000 per hour.

The article continues - "The next
great event like the night of 1833
won't be until November, 1999."
November 4th
is the date of the Taurids”

http://www.greatdreams.com/encke.htm as are:

"Astronomer Fred Whipple calculates that the night time Taurids have been with us for 5,000 years. It now takes Earth about three months (mid-September to mid-December) to traverse this band of debris.
The night-time Taurids branch into two radiants.
One branch appears to radiate from near the Pleiades star cluster and peaks around November 3 to 5.
The second branch seems to spray from close to the Hyades and is most active from November 10 to 13.
Earlier in its history, as the progenitor of comet Encke was creating it, this debris ring had to have been more dense. As Earth passed through the mess, it no doubt collected a considerable amount of dust. The night time Taurids are known for frequent bolide activity. Large, vaporizing meteoroids (bolides) in an atmosphere loaded with comet dust will produce unusual visual effects. Refraction, reflection, and possibly secondary emission come into play as a sizable object splashes into an aerosol laden atmosphere compressing molecules of gas against motes of dust in its bow-shock wave until--BOOM-(Occured Nov. 1963) -the object vaporizes, illuminating the multiple layers of compression separated gas and debris. From the ground this might look as if a god threw a pebble in the sky-pond.

Velikovsky saw "Comet Venus." As a researcher he fell victim to what is called the"bibbu boo-boo." There is considerable reason to suspect that the majority of our planet's namesakes were comets--probably of the Encke family.
[Thus far three large objects are identified with this family: Comet Encke itself and the asteroids Hephestos and 1982 TA. We may find more. All of these would have been visually impressive several thousand years ago as they all would have been comets. Many researchers now believe that most Earth-orbit-crossing asteroids are remnants of comets; the distinction between such objects is not as firm as it once was. Comet Encke's coma is fast waning--in fifty years it may be asteroid Encke.]
"The word planet comes from the Greek planetes, the wanderers; these seven celestial bodies moved among the fixed stars. The Babylonians had a more picturesque name bibbu, the wild sheep, as these bodies broke through the fixed formation in which the tame sheep crossed the sky."

Encke and the 5000 year old Taurids takes us right back to the angelic arrival c3200BC.

The main components of a comet are:
The nucleus:
The European Space Agency space probe Giotto gave us our first ever view of a comet's nucleus when it passed within 600 km of the nucleus of Halley's Comet in 1986. We now know that the nucleus is small, about 10-20 kilometres across, is irregular in shape (rather like a peanut), and is almost black. From it jets of gas and dust are forced out by the Sun's radiation. We believe that under the black skin there is a solid body composed of ices of various kinds, including water-ice, dry-ice (made of carbon dioxide), ammonia, methane and many other organic carbon compound ices all mixed together with dust. The dust contains silicates, carbon and carbon compounds.

“ According to astronomers such as Dr. Victor Clube, of Oxford University's Department of Astrophysics, the coming and goings of the Taurid stream should be a source of concern to politicians, planners and anyone who cherishes life on Earth.
A ''catastrophist'', Dr. Clube is one of many astronomers who are convinced that within this celestial procession lie the seeds of mass destruction an Armageddon of biblical proportions. ''The matter requires urgent attention. It is crucial that everyone is woken up to the danger,'' Dr. Clube says.
The chilling scenario envisaged is of Earth and one of the 46,000mph objects in the Taurid stream colliding during one of the orbital crossings.
Dr. Clube says: ''It is analagous to a nuclear war with a megatonnage of the same order and all the effects of nuclear war with debris from the impact causing sunlight to be blocked causing a Dark Age or Ice Age.''
He has coined the phrase ''Multiple Tunguska Bombardment'' to describe the worst nightmare which, he believes, will eventually happen. Tunguska refers to a Siberian River near which, in June 1908, a 100 yard body from the Taurid stream ploughed into Earth, exploding and devastating an area 25 miles wide with the impact of a 20-megaton bomb.
Fortunately the encounter occured in an unpopulated part of the globe but if the impact had been on London it would have devastated the city, killing millions. The Tunguska event may have been only a chance occurence.
Yet, according to Dr. Clube and Dr. Bill Napier, of the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh, whose book Cosmic Winter is published next month, the history of Earth is littered with subtle evidence that cosmic debris have consistently intervened, often with catastrophic consequences.
One of the most popular theories to explain the sudden demise of the dinosaurs is that, 65 million years ago, a huge asteroid ploughed into the planet, triggering either a nuclear-style winter or huge fires.
This popular theory was given a boost only last week when scientists at the University of Arizona reported the discovery of an apparent 180-mile-wide crash site in the Caribbean of an asteroid six miles wide. They claim this could be linked with the great reptiles' extinction.
Dr. Clube ascribes other events including the Old Testament story of Noah and his Ark to a Dark Age linked with colliding heavenly bodies. He also believes that climatic changes, including fears of present global warming, may have a cosmic component.
There is sufficient evidence, he says, to indicate that collisions happen within centuries and millenniums rather than millions and billions of years, with multiple encounters more likely than sceptics claim.
Dr. Clube emphasizes that predicting when a bombardment may occur is impossible without more scientific evaluation of the Taurid stream.
''We are probably a little safer at the moment because the intersecting orbits are far away. But we are on the inward run and in 500 years we will start getting close again,'' he says.
According to Dr. Clube, the last time that the stream was closest within Earth's orbit was in the first millennium BC, from about 500BC up to 0AD, the time of Christ.
It is vital to overcome complacency about the threat from cosmic debris, he says. This complacency is relatively new, as pagan and ancient civilisations such as the Babylonians were firm believers in the threat of of cosmic destruction. Part of the blame for this complacency “

Comets - thanks for that post! Wee confirmations or coincidences are encouraging.

Reve x

16-09-2012, 09:42 PM
From Wiki: (I've had to leave large parts out because there's too much info, so go and have a look if you're interested)

Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles; Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волос) (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the Supreme thunder-god Perun, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology. No direct accounts survive, but reconstructions speculate that he may directly continue aspects of the Proto-Indo-European pantheon and that he may have been imagined as (at least partially) serpentine, with horns (of a bull, ram or some other domesticated herbivore), and a long beard. (my bolding)

Enemy of Perun and storm myth

The Russian philologists Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov and Vladimir Toporov reconstructed the mythical battle of Perun and Veles through comparative study of various Indo-European mythologies and a large number of Slavic folk stories and songs. A unifying characteristic of all Indo-European mythologies is a story about a battle between a god of thunder and a huge serpent or a dragon. In the Slavic version of the myth, Perun is a god of thunder, whilst Veles acts as a dragon who opposes him, consistent with the Vala etymology; He is also similar to the Etruscan Underworld-monster Vetha and to the dragon Illuyankas, enemy of the storm god of Hittite mythology.

The reason of enmity between the two gods is Veles' theft of Perun's son, wife or, usually, cattle. It is also an act of challenge: Veles, in the form of a huge serpent, slithers from the caves of the Underworld and coils upwards the Slavic world tree towards Perun's heavenly domain. Perun retaliates and attacks Veles with his lightning bolts. Veles flees, hiding or transforming himself into trees, animals or people. In the end he is killed by Perun, and in this ritual death, whatever Veles stole is released from his battered body in form of rain falling from the skies. This Storm myth, as it is generally referred to by scholars today, explained to ancient Slavs the changing of seasons through the year. The dry periods were interpreted as chaotic results of Veles' thievery. Storms and lightning were seen as divine battles. The following rain was the triumph of Perun over Veles and re-establishment of world order.

The myth was cyclical, repeating itself each year. The death of Veles was never permanent; he would reform himself as a serpent who would shed its old skin and would be reborn in a new body. Although in this particular myth he plays the negative role as bringer of chaos, Veles was not seen as an evil god by ancient Slavs. In fact, in many of the Russian folk tales, Veles, appearing under the Christian guise of St. Nicholas, saves the poor farmer and his cattle from the furious and destructive St. Elias the Thunderer, who, of course, represents the old Perun. The duality and conflict of Perun and Veles does not represent the dualistic clash of good and evil; rather, it is the opposition of the natural principles of earth, water and substance (Veles) against heaven, fire and spirit.

God of the underworld and death

Ancient Slavs viewed their world as a huge tree, with the treetop and branches representing the heavenly abode of gods and the world of mortals, whilst the roots represented the underworld. And while Perun, seen as a hawk or eagle sitting on a tallest branch of tree, was believed to be ruler of heaven and living world, Veles, seen as a huge serpent coiling around the roots, was ruling the world of dead. This was actually quite a lovely place, described in folk tales as a green and wet world of grassy plains and eternal spring, where various fantastic creatures dwell and the spirits of deceased watch over Veles' herds of cattle. In more geographical terms, the world of Veles was located, the Slavs believed, "across the sea", and it was there the migrating birds would fly to every winter. In folk tales this land is called Virey or Iriy. Each year, the god of fertility and vegetation, Jarilo, who also dwelt there during winter, would return from across the sea and bring spring into the world of the living. (my bolding)

God of magic and musicians

Veles' nature for mischief is evident both from his role in Storm myth and in carnival customs of Koledari shamans. In his role as a trickster god, he is in some ways similar to both Greek Hermes and Scandinavian Loki, and like them, he was connected with magic. The word volhov, obviously derived from his name, in some Slavic languages still means sorcerer, whilst in the 12th century Russian epic The Tale of Igor's Campaign, character of Boyan the wizard is called Veles' grandson. Since magic was and is closely linked to music in primitive societies, Veles was also believed to be protector of travelling musicians.

17-09-2012, 10:03 AM
....and that he may have been imagined as (at least partially) serpentine, with horns (of a bull, ram or some other domesticated herbivore)...

The horns given to deities in Egypt are sometimes to reflect their status as moon deities, Thoth is an example. In Egypt there is a wonderful olittle snake called the horned viper which has its own hieroglyph. Although i would not want to be bitten by one they are not regarded by scientists as particularly harmful unlike the cobra. Indeed snakes which kill mice and rats are adored in most parts of the world.

I am not at all convinced that it is Apep, which is huge and usually looks more like a python or boa. Egypt is full of contradictions as the one civilization has had so many different cultures running it, often at odds with each other. On top of that the earliest magic and understandings were not well understood 3000 years later when greece came to write about them. Here is a selection on this fascinating creature - there is even a short film on You Tube of one found in a crevice of the Great Pyramid:

Horned viper snake by RAMAN hd 720p.avi - YouTube

"There are also about Thebes sacred serpents, not at all harmful to men, which are small in size and have two horns growing from the top of the head: these they bury when they die in the temple of Zeus, for to this god they say that they are sacred.
Herodotus, Histories II
Project Gutenberg
Viper mummies have been found at Thebes

One of the poisonous snakes the Egyptians feared most was the horned viper (Cerastes cornutus and Cerastes cerastes, also known as the sand viper). When the horned viper attacks, it rasps its coils together before springing forward. The rasping sounds like the letter f, and the horned viper was used as the hieroglyph to write the sound (fy is the Egyptian word for "viper" as well).
The Pyramid Texts allude repeatedly to the menace of serpents, and they recur in religious


. Apep is generally represented as an Egyptian horned viper (Cerastes cerastes) this snake was also used to represent the "F" sound to simulate the sound it made as it moved through the sand. Its association with Apep made it feared enough by the ancient Egyptians (in some places) that they would carefully sever the heads of that hieroglyph to avoid Apep's influence. It was also thought to represent Apep undamaged gave him more power. It was thought by ancient Egyptian's that every night Apep would attempt to eat Ra (in many cases there were some variants that involved other gods) and every night Ra in the sun boat and a small army of gods including set and the dead would kill him (sort of) and Apep's blood would dye the dawn pink.


Unlike Echis, to which they bear a passing resemblance, Cerastes species are not known to be ill-tempered and their venom, which is a cytotoxin, is not particularly potent. Bites can be painful and should always be taken seriously, but little venom is injected and few fatalities are known. Bites do occur, especially in the Suez Canal region, but no statistical data is available.

Snakes could either have positive or negative connotations in ancient Egypt. The demon Apophis or Apep was the archenemy of the son god Re and at the same time the uraeus cobra was the protector of the king. The ability of snakes to shed their skins possibly linked several snake deities with rebirth.
Although deaths from snake bites are rare in Egypt a number do occur. Among the venomous snakes are the Black-necked spitting cobra (Naja mossambica pallida) which can spray poisonous venom three meters into the eyes and leave the victim permanently blinded. There is also the Egyptian Cobra (Naja haje haje) which is more than two meters in length and the smaller horned viper (Cerastes sp.).
The gigantic African Rock Python (Python sebae) which was present in the Predynastic Period is no longer found in the country. Ivory knife handles sometimes show intertwined pairs of this snake under an elephant. Whether the elephant was depicted as trampling the snake or working with the snake is debatable. Houlihan (1996, 172-173) believes the elephant is attacking the snake, an idea reinforced by the legend that African Rock Pythons were enemies of the African elephant. Johnson (1990, 40-41) however, believes that the snakes are supporting and defending the elephants.
There are a large number of ancient Egyptian texts which were designed to act against snakes. Spell 33 of the Book of the Dead, for example, states that, in order to drive off a serpent, the the following should be recited: ‘Oh snake, take yourself off, for Geb protects me; get up, for you have eaten a mouse, which Re detests, and you have chewed the bones of a putrid cat.’ The archenemy of the sun-god Re, Apophis, took the form of a snake, and at midday threatens the voyage of the god through the otherworld. He is however defeated and Re goes on his way. In the Coffin Texts and the Book of the Dead a snake is mentioned who is part made of flint. This snake is identified as Apophis. Dangerous snakes are shown as being cut up or otherwise mutilated. In early Egyptain tombs, even snake hieroglyphs were shown cut by knives lest the representation be made living and harm the deceased. In Egyptian spell books, snakes are often killed using a flint knife.
Despite the fact that many snakes were obviously harmful the Egyptians did not think of all snakes as bad. Indeed, many protective gods and goddesses could take the form of snakes, for example Renenutet and Merseger. Meretseger protected the Theban necropolis and Renenutet was a guardian of the king and also a protector of the harvest. The downstairs gallery has a large stela with two snakes entwined. They represent Isis-Thermouthis and Serapis (Serapis is the bearded one on the right). Isis was the consort of Serapis, and the two came to embody the forces of male and female fertility. They are sometimes represented on door-jambs as human-headed serpents.
The Centre also has protective in the form of snakes.
Wadjet, the goddess of Lower Egypt, could take the form of a snake. Her counterpart was Nekhbet the goddess of Upper Egypt and together the pair represented the unity of the two lands. They can be seen on coffin fragments in the Centre. For example Wadjyt can be seen on W1042. She can also be seen on the coffin of the Egyptian priestess as a winged cobra.
Long coiled snakes also appear on the Egyptian game of ‘Mehen’ (copies of which can be purchased at the Egypt Centre). The original game of mehen was played on a spiral board in the form of a coiled snake. Examples have been found in early Egyptian tombs, over 4000 years old. Pieces, in the form of marbles and a lion shaped counter were moved around the board. The ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead mentions Mehen, protector of the sun-god Re as the enemy of death.
The cobra which appears on the forehead of Egyptian royalty is known by Egyptologists as the ‘uraeus’. Female goddess who were the daughters of the sun-god Re were particularly associated with the uraeus, which was also the Eye of Re. For example, Hathor, Neith and Isis. An example of Neith as a winged uraeus can be seen on the 21st Dynasty Coffin in the Egypt Centre. The uraeus protected the king. Sometimes uraei are shown spitting flame or fire, for example, in the Book of Amduat.
It is possible that Egyptian magicians carried wands in the shape of snakes. The god of magic, Heka, is shown carrying two snakes, one in each hand. An example of him can be seen on the coffin of the Egyptian Priestess in the downstairs gallery."
Items associated with snakes in the Egypt Centre

On the other matter of imminent war. Iran has had its nuclear scientists assassinated as they drove to work, its missile warehouses blown up, its power stations and atomic work struck by a powerful computer virus and ot has been threatened with imminent air attack. Israel seem to have accepted that they are responsible. On top of that Iran is crippled by international sanctions. It is certainly not the only country to threaten others. If Netanyahu really wanted peace and security would he not make one concession for this. Clear the West Bank? The rhetoric is becoming more and more warlike by the day, by both sides. I find it very suspicious that absolutely no concessions are offered to Iran in exchange for dismantling its nuclear work. Even Pakistan its neighbour has an atom bomb and has had one a long time. When you expect something in diplomatic circles you offer something back. But it is clear they want a war more than security.

The timing of the film is extremely suspicious. Do we have to be taken for idiots? Can no one sensible stand up to the man for fear of being branded anti-semitic? Interestingly he was introduced recently as the leader of the Jews, not just Israel, which brings up the subject that must never be discussed. Are you a Jew or an American first? If you have two nationalities should you be allowed to vote is where that leads so dont mention it.

Iran is addressing a host of nations today - the Nuclear Authority of the world so hopefully they will allay all our concerns. However some will still want a war if it is about expelling Arabs from the Jordan Valley and building a Jewish Temple on top of an ancient Mosque from which Mohammed ascended to Heaven. That is where the 'red line' needs to be drawn by US, Russia, China and Europe.

reve x

reve x

17-09-2012, 02:05 PM
As the film is causing such a problem O thought I would not something about Rushdie’s satanic Verses which is also getting a mention. Rushdie is a couple of years older than me. He studied History at Cambridge and was educated at Rugby but was born in Bombay to a Kashmiri Muslim family. His father was originally a lawyer, himself Univesity educated and hos mother a teacher. So Rushdie received a fairly Christian based education, even though it would have supported him as a Muslim.

He is a highly regarded writer who won the Booker prize in 1981. In fact the Times rate him the 13th greatest British writer. He has received a knighthood for services to literature. And he wrote the Satanic Verses published in 1988. Since then I believe a couple of his trans;ators have been assassinated, 37 people killed in protersts in Turkey, bomb plots (the bomber blew himself up), a life in hiding with protection and now a £2 million price in his head courtesy of Iran. It just went up half a million. This week Rushdie stated that he did not think the book would be published in the climate (if fear).

I was not in the Emin in 1988 but would love to know what leo and Orman et all made of this book. It is fiction (Mahommed in Mahound in the book so thinly veiled) set in 1988. One character seems to become the angel Gabriel mouthpiece. And it is from this that the blasphemous suggestion is made that the angel Gabriel spoke the Satanic verses.

Now bear in mind that most Muslims know the story and accept the orthodox theory that after putting some verses in the Koran, Mohammed had a change of mind and took them out and said that they had been suggested to him by Shaitan, not Gabriel, and God was unhappy about them. The problem is Rushdie writing as if that is untrue. It goes quite deep into the religion. I think I would liken it to a respected Christian scholar writing that in the Vatican are gospels which maintain that Jesus was tempted by Satan and God had him punished for lying to all of us. If that happened the man would have a lot of powerful organisations after his blood too. Such stuff can destroy a religion, but obviously it is inflammatory and people hot hurt. An author’s conscience as he goes out to sell books. A peeping tom sells his photos of a famous woman in her bathroom for a fortune - is he going to be concerned for the blushes caused. But a film or book that get people killed have bad karma.

So what about the verses themselves? I have got some stuff here on all of this but without wishing to upset anyone will give my view. The Arabians had 3 goddesses at Mohammed’s time and they were considered the daughters of Allah. They had temples and presumably sects and loyal devotees. They equated with the famous Greek goddesses - Aphrodite etc and the feminine side of Creation. But Mohammed had been preaching a monotheistic religion with a male God Allah and no other God or Goddess, and a succession of male prophets with him as the last. This was not universally popular and some peoples were not submitting to it, or if they were submitted to it forcibly, they were deeply troubles. These goddesses had been in the Kaaba it was believed and was Mohammed had inherited the Kaaba with its 360 gods and goddesses inside it, it was probably true. He was under pressure and inspired to add in the Koran that it was permissible to worship these three goddesses too. Perhaps he had succumbed to a desire to please but after being put firmly in his place by God and Gabriel, who went through the Koran with Mohammed and told him that he had never authorised these particular verses. Anyway he withdrew the verses and said that they were not inspired by God and Gabriel but by Satan, which is a way of saying that they were against the principles of Islam. He then sent troops out to destroy the idols and Temples of these three goddesses. Sp who were they?:

“ wiki Al-Uzzá (Arabic: العزى‎ al-ʻUzzá [al ʕuzzaː]) was one of the three chief goddesses of Arabian religion in pre-Islamic times and was worshiped as one of the daughters of Allah by the pre-Islamic Arabs along with Allāt and Manāt. Al-‘Uzzá was also worshipped by the Nabataeans, who equated her with the Greek goddess Aphrodite Ourania (Roman Venus Caelestis). A stone cube at aṭ-Ṭā’if (near Mecca) was held sacred as part of her cult. She is mentioned in the Qur'an Sura 53:19 as being one of the goddesses that people worshiped.
Al-‘Uzzá, like Hubal, was called upon for protection by the pre-Islamic Quraysh. "In 624 at the 'battle called Uhud', the war cry of the Qurayshites was, "O people of Uzzā, people of Hubal!" Al-ʻUzzá also later appears in Ibn Ishaq's account of the Satanic Verses.[citation needed]
The temple dedicated to al-ʻUzzá and the statue itself was destroyed by Khalid ibn al Walid in Nakhla

"Manah" redirects here. For the place near Mecca, see Mina, Saudi Arabia.
Manāt (Arabic: مناة‎; also transliterated as manāh) was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca. The pre-Islamic Arabs believed Manāt to be the goddess of fate. She was known by the cognate name Manawat to the Nabataeans of Petra, who equated her with the Graeco-Roman goddess Nemesis and she was considered the wife of Hubal. The Qur'an confirmed that the pre-Islamic Arabs believed that some female idols were daughters of God, like Allāt, Al-‘Uzzá, and Manāt. According to Grunebaum in Classical Islam, the Arabic name of Manat is the linguistic counterpart of the Hellenistic Tyche, Dahr, fateful 'Time' who snatches men away and robs their existence of purpose and value. There are also connections with Chronos of Mithraism and Zurvan mythology. The Book of Idols describes her:
The most ancient of all these idols was Manāt. The Arabs used to name [their children] 'Abd-Manāt and Zayd-Manāt. Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al-Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca. All the Arabs used to venerate her and sacrifice before her. The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as the inhabitants of Medina and Mecca and their vicinities, used to venerate Manāt, sacrifice before her, and bring unto her their offerings... The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as those Arabs among the people of Yathrib and other places who took to their way of life, were wont to go on pilgrimage and observe the vigil at all the appointed places, but not shave their heads. At the end of the pilgrimage, however, when they were about to return home, they would set out to the place where Manāt stood, shave their heads, and stay there a while. They did not consider their pilgrimage completed until they visited Manāt.
—Book of Idols, pp 12–14
The ruling tribes of al-Madinah, and other Arabs continued to worship Manat until the time of Muhammad.
The temple of Manat was raided and the idol was destroyed on the orders of Muhammad, in the Raid of Sa'd ibn Zaid al-Ashhali, in January 630 AD (8AH, 9th month, of the Islamic Calendar), in the vicinity of al-Mushallal.

Allāt or al-Lāt (Arabic: اللات‎) was a Pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca. She is mentioned in the Qur'an (Sura 53:19), which indicates that pre-Islamic Arabs considered her as one of the daughters of Allah along with Manāt and al-‘Uzzá.
The shrine and temple dedicated to al-Lat in Taif was demolished by Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, on the orders of Muhammad, during the Expedition of Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, in the same year as the Battle of Tabuk (which occurred in October 630 AD). The destruction of the idol was a demand by Muhammad before any reconciliation could take place with the citizens of Taif who were under constant attack.
[Especially in older sources, Allat is an alternative name of the Mesopotamian goddess of the underworld, now usually known as Ereshkigal. She was reportedly also venerated in Carthage under the name Allatu.
The goddess occurs in early Safaitic graffiti (Safaitic han-'Ilāt "the Goddess") and the Nabataeans of Petra and the people of Hatra also worshipped her, equating her with the Greek Athena and Tyche and the Roman Minerva. She is frequently called "the Great Goddess" in Greek in multi-lingual inscriptions. According to Wellhausen, the Nabataeans believed al-Lāt was the mother of Hubal (and hence the mother-in-law of Manāt).
The Greek historian Herodotus, writing in the 5th century BC, considered her the equivalent of Aphrodite:
The Assyrians call Aphrodite Mylitta, the Arabians Alilat, and the Persians Mitra. In addition that deity is associated with the Indian deity Mitra (Vedic). The persian and Indian deity were developed from the proto-indo-iranian deity known as *mitra.
According to Herodotus, the ancient Arabians believed in only two gods:
They believe in no other gods except Dionysus and the Heavenly Aphrodite; and they say that they wear their hair as Dionysus does his, cutting it round the head and shaving the temples. They call Dionysus, Orotalt; and Aphrodite, Alilat.

In the Qur'an, she is mentioned along with al-‘Uzzá and Manāt in Sura 53:19–23. The tribe of ʿād of Iram of the Pillars is also mentioned in Sura 89:5–8, and archaeological evidence from Iram shows copious inscriptions devoted to her for the protection of a tribe by that name.
Al-lāt is also explicitly attested from early Islamic records discussing the pre-Islamic period. According to the Book of Idols (Kitāb al-ʾAṣnām) by Hishām ibn al-Kalbi, the pre-Islamic Arabs believed Al-lāt resided in the Kaʿbah and also had an idol inside the sanctuary:{{quote|Her custody was in the hands of the Banū Attāb ibn Mālik of the Thaqīf, who had built an edifice over her. The Quraysh, as well as all the Arabs, venerated al-Lāt. They also used to name their children after her, calling them Zayd al-Lāt and Taym al-Lāt. [...] Al-Lāt continued to be venerated until the Thaqīf embraced Islam, when the Apostle of God dispatched al-Mughīrah ibn-Shu‘bah, who destroyed her and burnt her temple to the ground. wikipedia

“Muslim Sources
Here is the story as narrated by one of the first Muslim biographers Ibn Ishaq:
Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. b. Ka`b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down "By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-`Uzza and Manat the third, the others", Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved". When the Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or slip, and when he reached the prostration and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. al-Mughira who was an old man who could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and the Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved".
The news reached the prophet's companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said , "What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for he was merciful to him comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then God sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise". Thus God relieved his prophet's grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation "Are yours the males and His the females? That were indeed an unfair division" (i.e. most unjust); "they are nothing by names which your fathers gave them" as far as the words "to whom he pleases and accepts", i.e. how can the intercession of their gods avail with Him?
When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from God, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else." (The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth impression 1995], pp. 165-167)
Al-Tabari, one of Islam’s greatest commentators “

reve: So Manat has a nice Emin name but was evicted. Christianity did the same - got rid of all the goddesses for One male God with a Son. The Hindus have a pantheon with both gods and godesses, however it must be said that Brahma, Vishnu, Krishna, Shivah and Kalpi who are in charge are all male. The Buddhists have a few gods but the Maitreya and Buddha are male. They have nuns but as may be expected we hear more from the male lamas, the top ones Daliai Lama - Panchen Lama are men. Who would reincarnate as a woman? I dont know but the Rinpoches seem to be men. I guess even they could get upset if a Buddhist lama scholar came up with a verse from Buddha saying that it was all about the great mother, but he had lad to deny that when an angry bunch of men confronted him. Plenty of lamas meet sticky ends.

I dont think the Muslims would be so upset if the author was not from a Muslim background. If I wrote it, they would say that was what you get from an atheist. But who is really upset? My bet would be Gabriel who is being accused of lying. And who is really upset with this film?

Reve x

17-09-2012, 03:51 PM
what happened to the other 357 and Hubal,. Lord Hu, warrior god, Horus? Man with the golden arm. The Hubal that Osama called the US.

"wikipedia: Hubal in Mecca

Hubal most prominently appears at Mecca, where an image of his was worshipped at the Kaaba. According to Karen Armstrong, the sanctuary was dedicated to Hubal, who was worshipped as the greatest of the 360 idols the Kaaba contained, which probably represented the days of the year.

Hisham Ibn Al-Kalbi's Book of Idols describes the image as shaped like a human, with the right hand broken off and replaced with a golden hand. According to Ibn Al-Kalbi, the image was made of red agate, whereas Al-Azraqi, an early Islamic commentator, described it as of "cornelian pearl". Al-Azraqi also relates that it "had a vault for the sacrifice" and that the offering consisted of a hundred camels. Both authors speak of seven arrows, placed before the image, which were cast for divination, in cases of death, virginity and marriage.

According to Ibn Al-Kalbi, the image was first set up by Khuzaymah ibn-Mudrikah ibn-al-Ya's' ibn-Mudar, but another tradition, record by Ibn Ishaq, holds that Amr ibn Luhayy, a leader of the Khuza'a tribe, put an image of Hubal into the Kaaba, where it was worshipped as one of the chief deities of the tribe. The date for Amr is disputed, with dates as late as the end of the fourth century CE suggested, but what is quite sure is that the Quraysh later became the protectors of the ancient holy place, supplanting the Khuza'a.

A tale recorded by Ibn Al-Kalbi has Muhammad's grandfather Abdul Mutallib vowing to sacrifice one of his ten children. He consulted the arrows of Hubal to find out which child he should chose. The arrows pointed to his son Abd-Allah, the future father of Muhammad. However, he was saved when 100 camels were sacrificed in his place. According to Tabari, Abdul Mutallib later also brought the infant Muhammad himself before the image.

After defeat by Muhammad's forces at the Battle of Badr, Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, leader of the Quraysh army, is said to have called on Hubal for support to gain victory in their next battle, saying "Show your superiority, Hubal". When Muhammad conquered Mecca in 630, he removed and had destroyed the statue of Hubal, along with the other 360 images at the Kaaba, and re-dedicated the structure to Allah.

There may be some foundation of truth in the story that Amr travelled in Syria and had brought back from there the cults of the goddesses ʻUzzāʼ and Manat, and had combined it with that of Hubal, the idol of the Khuza'a. According to Al-Azraqi, the image was brought to Mecca "from the land of Hit in Mesopotamia" (Hīt in modern Iraq). Philip K. Hitti, who relates the name Hubal to an Aramaic word for spirit, suggests that the worship of Hubal was imported to Mecca from the north of Arabia, possibly from Moab or Mesopotamia. Hubal may have been the combination of Hu, meaning "spirit" or "god", and the Maob god Baal meaning "master" or "lord". Outside South Arabia, Hubal's name appears just once, in a Nabataean inscription; there hbl is mentioned along with the gods Dushara (ذو الشراة) and Manawatu — the latter, as Manat, was also popular in Mecca. On the basis of such slender evidence, it has been suggested that Hubal "may actually have been a Nabataean". There are also inscriptions in which the word Hubal appears to be part of personal names, translatable as "Son of Hubal" or "made by Hubal".

The paucity of evidence concerning Hubal makes it difficult to characterise his role or identity in pagan Arabian mythologies. The 19th century scholar Julius Wellhausen suggested that Hubal was regarded as the son of al-Lāt and the brother of Wadd. Hugo Winckler in the early twentieth century speculated that Hubal was a lunar deity, a view that was repeated by other scholars. This was derived from Ditlef Nielsen's theory that South Arabian mythology was based on a trinity of Moon-father, Sun-mother and the evening star (the planet Venus) envisaged as their son. More recent scholars have rejected this view, partly because it is speculation but also because a Nabataean origin would make the context of South Arabian beliefs irrelevant.

Mircea Eliade and Charles J. Adams assert that he was "a god of rain and a warrior god. Towards the end of the pre-Islamic era he emerged as an intertribal warrior god worshipped by the Quarysh and the allied tribes of the Kinana and Tihama." The view that he was a warrior rain god is repeated by David Adams Leeming.

John F. Healey in The Religion of the Nabataeans (2001) accepts the Nabataean origins of the god, but says there is little evidence of Hubal's mythological role, but that it is possible that he was closely linked to Dushara in some way. The one surviving inscription concerns a religious injunction to placate Hubal and others for violating a tomb.

Both Islamists and Christian evangelicals have invoked the figure of Hubal in the ideological struggles of the post Cold War era. In Islamism Hubal has been used as a symbol of modern forms of "idol worship". According to Adnan A. Musallam this can be traced to one of the founders of radical Islamism, Sayyid Qutb, who used the label to attack secular rulers such as Nasser, seen as creating "idols" based on un-Islamic Western and Marxist ideologies. In 2001, Osama bin Laden called America the modern Hubal. He referred to allies of America as "hypocrites" who "all stood behind the head of global unbelief, the Hubal of the modern age, America and its supporters". Al Qaeda's then number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, repeated the phrase ("hubal al-'asr") in describing America, during his November 2008 message following Barack Obama's election to the presidency. The analogy may have been passed on to Bin Laden by one of his teachers, Abdullah Azzam.

Conversely, American Evangelicals have invoked Hubal by claiming that the worship of Allah as proclaimed by Muhammad was not a restoration of Abrahamic monotheism, but an adaptation of the worship of Hubal. Robert Morey's 1994 book Moon-god Allah in the Archeology of the Middle East revives Hugo Winckler's identification of Hubal as a moon god, and claims that worship of Allah evolved from that of Hubal, thus making Allah a "moon god" too. This view is repeated in the Chick tracts "Allah Had No Son" and "The Little Bride". It has been widely circulated in Evangelical and anti-Islamic literature in the United States. In 1996 Janet Parshall asserted that Muslims worship a moon god in syndicated radio broadcasts. In 2003 Pat Robertson stated, "The struggle is whether Hubal, the Moon God of Mecca, known as Allah, is supreme, or whether the Judeo-Christian Jehovah God of the Bible is Supreme."

These views have been dismissed by both Muslim and secular religious scholars Farzana Hassan sees these claims as an extension of longstanding Christian Evangelical beliefs that Islam is "pagan" and that Muhammad was an impostor and deceiver:

Literature circulated by the Christian Coalition perpetuates the popular Christian belief about Islam being a pagan religion, borrowing aspects of Judeo-Christian monotheism by elevating the moon god Hubal to the rank of Supreme God, or Allah. Muhammad, for fundamentalist Christians, remains an impostor who commissioned his companions to copy words of the Bible as they sat in dark inaccessible places, far removed from public gaze." wiki

Suggests Hubal is what all the fuss is about. And why there is a crescent moon on every Muslim dome or umbrella. But is Hubal The US or the Muslim, or both? Nobody really knows what they are doing or worshipping, but they are sure that they do. Opening ones eyes is realising that you dont know what you are doing or why, but intend to find out. What a ballyhoo.

reve x

18-09-2012, 09:05 AM
It is used to bully countries around the world but we find tyhat in the two flagships US and UK the people do not really have a total say in who gets elected. cameron is changing the boundaries of constituencies to ensure the extra 15 seats he needs to win next time on his own. 16 States in the US have passed legislation which will make it hard for the poorest 5 million to vote at all. This after Romney called the 47% who will vote for Obama as people who see themselves as victimes and want everything for free - housing, food and healthcare. he seems to have little sympathy for the growing number of homeless. look at this in the Emin State (hope they are out protesting)


This swing state has a history of problems with its voter rolls, and this year is no exception.

In May, state officials announced a purge to remove non-citizens from its voter rolls. But the list it sent to county officials included names of eligible citizens. County election supervisors suspended the purge, and the Justice Department sued the state to officially ban it.

The Justice Department and civil rights groups argued the purge was discriminatory, a charge the state denies. But Jim Greer, the former state GOP chairman, said in a May court deposition that party officials and staff had held meetings to talk about “keeping blacks from voting.” (Current GOP state officials deny these discussions and say Greer is trying to taint the party. Greer was forced to resign his position in 2010 amid allegations he had mishandled party money, and now faces six charges of money laundering and fraud.)

In June, a federal judge upheld Florida’s purge, clearing the way for the Department of Homeland Security to give the state access to a database it maintains to verify citizenship of some individuals. The two parties are working on a memorandum of agreement that specifies how the process will work.

“We’re still very optimistic that can be done very soon, and once we get that signed we’ll then begin to verify the names of potential non-citizens we’ve identified,” said Chris Cate, the spokesman for Florida’s Secretary of State, Ken Detzner.

Florida’s primary election will be held Aug. 14. State officials hope to start drawing up a new list to purge before the general election in November.

Local officials, meanwhile, have threatened to rebel again if the list is flawed.

Some will recall how President Bush was levered into place by his Florida Governor brother's State making voting in a Democrat difficult to put it mildly.

I do not consider either the UK or US to be true democratic countries. To be so would mean everyone has a say in the policies of a country, not just a proportion which varies from the rich proportion seeking ever greater control to the workforce proportion also seeking more control. In fact in Parliament there is not one poor person and no one really fighting poverty although they claim they do. It is an illusion we need to stop selling to the rest of the world.

The Emin was certainly not a democracy. I would call it a feudal organisation with barons and their circles and the poor taxed to feed the rich.

reve x

18-09-2012, 10:41 AM
The Emin was certainly not a democracy. I would call it a feudal organisation with barons and their circles and the poor taxed to feed the rich.
When I see this sort of thing, I know I'm right to ignore all the other stuff you put up here, Reve. First of all, I don't recall anyone claiming the Emin was a democracy in the first place. As for 'barons', well I guess I was one of those, but the only circles I recall having were under my eyes; and, as I've said before on here, I was never paid anything by the Emin. But you don't like to hear that kind of thing, do you? It doesn't square with your theory about why you didn't get as far in the Emin as you believe you should, i.e. there was this army of well-paid thugs who prevented the true Emin people (er, you) from getting to Leo. And because you weren't in a senior position in the Emin, it failed. Thank god you are now in communication with Leo - death has freed him from those nasty bullies who didn't understand your true connection - and can finally save the world. Not sure what from, but then perhaps I should have been reading all your threads to find out. Or maybe not.

18-09-2012, 11:45 AM
Droll very droll JenM, but true..T
It is his pure hypocrisy that gets up my nose...

18-09-2012, 12:35 PM
When I see this sort of thing, I know I'm right to ignore all the other stuff you put up here, Reve. First of all, I don't recall anyone claiming the Emin was a democracy in the first place. As for 'barons', well I guess I was one of those, but the only circles I recall having were under my eyes; and, as I've said before on here, I was never paid anything by the Emin. But you don't like to hear that kind of thing, do you? It doesn't square with your theory about why you didn't get as far in the Emin as you believe you should, i.e. there was this army of well-paid thugs who prevented the true Emin people (er, you) from getting to Leo. And because you weren't in a senior position in the Emin, it failed. Thank god you are now in communication with Leo - death has freed him from those nasty bullies who didn't understand your true connection - and can finally save the world. Not sure what from, but then perhaps I should have been reading all your threads to find out. Or maybe not.

How much were you paying in subs every week when you left JennM?

We do wish Leo was free of the bullies but of course this is his complaint - he is not and is responsible for their actions including any attacks members/ex members make against each other or others, and any reported cases of abuse which the leadership have decided to ignore rather than rectify.

Like any President he is responsible for anything his army does, in the hereafter. Unfortunately the thugs took it upon themselves, without any form of real or widely accepted training, to run Group Therapy sessions. Many members were humilated and damaged by these. As Leo was kept away and the complaint system is run by these people, and as everyone here can see what kind of 'teacher' JennM and Tor were/would have been, it would appear that I have every right to make my statement,. It was what I, my friends and many others experienced so it must be a lie. Nevertheless I have tried to show here what the real Emin is and was. Something much older than our Emin and something that transmits knowledge, rather than deception, and therefore something that requires past deceptions to be corrected when identified. That is where Leo's interests lie now he has been made aware of what the Emin was like at ground level, something hidden from him by his ushers. He has also realised what his faults were, as will we all. Why dont those who think i am lying ask him themselves, or get those old Tarot cards out and see what they say about my claim. You may need to deal them a few times to get the answer you want but keep trying. I would be very happy to see what you feel that Leo has commuinicated about this thread to you as I know you would not put lies in his mouth now. If you recall Leo offered this a way back on this thread but had to withdraw the offer due to the disgusting responses from you know who. Still time passes so why dont you try again if you distrust me and let us know what comes up.


As we approach 100,000 how about some of you posting you old emin photos here?

18-09-2012, 12:40 PM
And you Tor - how much did you pay in subs, not time, real money to the Emin? And you have never revealed to us why you left. Did they put your subs up perhaps or decide that you should start paying them? Leo was still alive in 1998 so why abandon his organisation then?

We (3 of us) paid the Emin the equivalent £100,000 over the 7 years and two were in low paid employment while the other was a single mother with small children and in those days unable to work. It is all in that Subs book - check it out.


18-09-2012, 02:14 PM
Simple about £2O a week, leaving I went to prison simple...T
PS: Before you ask you find out, like the village of Maale Tzvia using the computer it's easy.

18-09-2012, 02:27 PM
That is where Leo's interests lie now he has been made aware of what the Emin was like at ground level, something hidden from him by his ushers
Okay, let's have a little first self challenge about this. Were you an usher, Reve? - no. Was I an usher? - yes. Did I hide what the Emin was like at ground level from Leo (or anyone else)? - no.

18-09-2012, 04:29 PM
Tor a very honest answer. As Mananaan mentioned the village that I did not know about, I am glad to have a name now to google.

JennM: Leo was never bullied by an usher, nor raped by one, nor had a child abused by his partner when he was at meetings. He did not know much about sitting in a circle, at some expense, being insulted and humiliated by people who wanted you to think they were much more 'developed' than you, which if you think about it was not actually true. If any of you ushers had gone to Leo and said that you were bullying members I would be surprised, and yet almost all the ushers I had did exactly that. If you looked at the videos of some of those meetings you would be shocked, unless you were JennM perhaps. And some of the nonsense we were told based on a complete absence of evidence was extraordinary too, but as the 'all drink each others urine from a cup for communion' was told to members by an usher and Leo had never suggested such a thing, you also have to add in some of the faults of ushers passed on to members for reasons unknown, certainly to Leo. But now he knows. Maybe you upset people more deeply than you knew and told them something that was wrong and that misled them all their life. Is that something you should worry about or Leo? As you probably never think about it then it is Leo that cops it on your behalf.

You see sitting in a circle and deliberately making yourself receptive to an usher is a very dangerous thing to do. Any psychiatrist can tell you what to expect when you abandon yourself to someone in a group therapy situation. This was the time of primal therapy, going back to the womb after screaming in anguish for half an hour. People who had a little confidence lost it in many cases when they saw others pulled up on the square and ridiculed. Who, when they blushed as we all laughed at the usher making them look stupid, would be told 'the answer is in your face go and sit down' because they saw Leo do that once. Members could put their hand up to ask or say something in a group or circle and for weeks be ignored by the usher who would only pick his chosen ones. Did it really happen? Most of us old timers who were not ushers know exactly what really happened when, after having Leo or Orman teaching us, we had to tolerate a succession of ever less knowledgeable mini despots. It may be history but still it needs cleaning. I suppose you can have a go at rewriting it though JennM. Or be in denial. Or be in containment even..


18-09-2012, 04:52 PM
is dependent on from where you are looking. To see the whole picture is rare. Who wants a war and who wants peace? Mitt thinks he knows:

A new secret video clip has emerged of remarks by Republican candidate Mitt Romney, saying the Palestinians are committed to Israel's destruction.

He tells donors the Middle East will "remain an unsolved problem... and we kick the ball down the field".

The video is from the same event as a clip released on Monday, in which Mr Romney says almost half of Americans "believe that they are victims".

It comes less than two months before the presidential election.

The new footage was posted on Tuesday on the website of the liberal investigative magazine Mother Jones, which said it was taken at a fundraiser in Boca Raton, Florida.

'Chicago dirty bomb'

Mr Romney is shown saying that Palestinians are "committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel".

"The Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace," he says, adding that "the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish".

Continue reading the main story
Mark Mardell

North America editor

Mitt Romney's unguarded and undiplomatic remarks may reinforce the perception that he is an ingenue in the art of foreign affairs, with harsher views than he dare express in public. Still, what he has said is more likely to provoke reactions in the region he is talking about than at home, where many conservatives may share his views.

It is still his suggestion that nearly half the American people he seeks to represent are losers living off the government, that will continue to resonate here. Again, it is about image - he has played into the hands of Democrats who want to portray him as rich and out of touch.

It has been widely reported that there has been panic in his camp because of the post-convention Obama bump in the opinion polls. Under 50 days away from polling day, no candidate wants to be hastily refocusing their campaign amid a barrage of stories about catastrophic gaffes.

Read more from Mark

In another clip, the former Massachusetts governor is shown discussing Iran's nuclear programme, and warning that America itself could come under attack.

"If I were Iran - a crazed fanatic, I'd say let's get a little fissile material to Hezbollah, have them carry it to Chicago or some other place, and then if anything goes wrong, or America starts acting up, we'll just say, 'Guess what? Unless you stand down, why, we're going to let off a dirty bomb'."

On Monday, Mother Jones posted another clip from the same fundraiser in which Mr Romney disparages those who would vote for his Democratic rival, President Barack Obama.

Not 'elegantly stated'

The Republican candidate is shown saying that the 47% of Americans who back the president do not pay income tax and would never vote for Mr Romney.

Good job he is not Iran. Worrying that he may be the US soon. Does he not realise that there are 4 million odd (families) in Concentration Camps who are the Palestinians. Does he think Chief Sitting Bull had no right to defend his burial grounds from the settlers and prospectors swarming in even after the Government had made it law that the Sioux could keep their sacred burial grounds, if not the prairies they had owned? Why are half a million settlers in 'illegal settlements' under International Law yet funded by the government and provided with infrastructures, roads and armed soldiers? Why has Netanyahu killed off the peace process and the two state solution and the Oslo accords etc? Funny how often Florida comes up isn't it? But here is a man who sees that the Palestinains do not want peace?

One can see how the angels can make a mockery of justice and reason whenever they want, especially in these enlightened times.

reve x

18-09-2012, 06:00 PM
Reve, as usual, there is no room in your ego for admitting that you might be anything less than totally right.

You of course know far more about me than I do myself. I had forgotten that I used to bully people in the Emin. Also, that I "upset people more deeply than [I] knew"; and told them things "that misled them all their life". Oh, and of course, the fact I'm not thinking about all these things I was that I didn't know I was but you do, means Leo is copping it on my behalf.

What else did I do that I've forgotten? Oh, yes, ignored people with their hands up for weeks (um, just a small technical point, but how did they eat, or stop their arms withering away with the strain?).

You and the other 'old timers' of course knew exactly what really happened, not me the 'mini despot'.

Finally - and this is rich even from you, Reve - I'm also guilty of not re-writing all these things that I didn't actually do but really did because you say I did and you're always right. Hmmm, not sure quite where my sins start and finish here. You of course are blameless. The big bad ushers bashed you up and made you feel stupid. Without them, you would have been happy and developed.

In short, I am responsible for screwing up the world and you're going to be responsible for fixing it. Now, isn't that the most mature attitude we've ever seen.

18-09-2012, 09:13 PM
the scales have fallen from JennM's eyes.

We once went to a Timeshare sale in the Canaries when we were living on a boat. They offered us 3 days car hire if we would go so we did. And we were put in little circles after the tour and they answered every question we could ask about why we might not be buying two weeks of timeshare in one of these flatlets. It was very emin like in some ways and every now and then someone would call us together to applaud a couple who had just signed up. Then we went back to our groups until the next. Luckily we were thinking car hire rather than timeshare. That person hard selling that worthless timeshare probably does not count the misery caused - has moved on. It was not a major commitment like the Emin anyway. But that does not mean it wont catch up with them as it is karmic and one day they will see exactly what they did. In that 'my whole life flashed before me' near-death moment. That is all I am saying - the one who cops it owns the development and hired the salesmen. This year the places are empty, surrounded by boarded up 'villages' and are ghost towns. Try and get your money back now!


18-09-2012, 10:48 PM
See, you know absolutely 'nowt about what you spout about. Leo used to say something like that, once.
Johnny Palmer 'goldfinger did 8 years for tax evasion, the idea of timeshare is excellent one of my emin girl freind's parents had 5 timeshares in Tenerefe.
We need timeshare here, in egypt due to the mubarack mafia there are a few million empty apartments, it's the only way out and the only way to move this staid economy, you and the egyptian government just haven't thought it through properly...T
me ? I'm currently pondering on ex-pat cemeteries. www.deadpharaohssociety.com™

19-09-2012, 11:40 AM
It is a simple enough exercise to answer this question. Do the major religions worship the same god? The assumption is that there can only be one god (to monotheists) and only one god creator, so they must all be the same. But the reality is something else. If one wants to know who Allah is it helps to ask a Muslim scholar. And also whether the crescent moon atop a Mosque means he is a moon deity. I have copied a bit from a couple of sites giving the Muslim position.

When Mohammed was born into the Qureishi tribe they had a chief tribal god called Hubal and he was represented by the carnelian or agate statue with a golden right hand as when they imported this idol it was broken. What interests me about this is (1) where is the statue even if broken? (2) cutting off a man’s right hand usually means in that part of the world they committed a crime and is a way of marking them out in society. Ear cropping was used in Britain.

Mohammed’s grandfather had consulted Hubal, whose 7 divinatory arrows were used for oracles. He made a vow that if he had ten sons he would sacrifice one of them and the one chosen by Hubal was Mohammed’s father. The grandfather was later persuaded not to sacrifice the boy by the tribe. I would point out that deities do not like such promises broken. In my astral world that could lead to the deity taking/possessing the child.

After Mohammed threw the 360 idols out of the Kaaba and instituted the concept of one god it is suggested by some that he retained his tribe’s god Hubal and made him the chief god. Muslims vigorously contest this. There is little etymological evidence but what there is points to a connection between Allah and the Hebrew Eloh. Again in my astral world it is suggesting that Allah is actually an angel, and as it was the angel Gabriel who led Mohammed to the conclusion that mankind should all worship none but Allah, it does nothing to make me think I am wrong in considering this. Mohammed is not the only prophet to recant a few lines. The Mormon Joseph Smith recanted too about polygamy - multiple wives for the Mormon men, but it was too late really. They probably would still have these multiple wives that Muslims can enjoy were it not illegal. But Moslems are not going to have women goddesses back.

Of course the Hebrews also need to consider that they are led by an angel rather than the 'God' who made the universe and all the gods. God of Gods is a title like King of Kings - it might as well be Sprinter of Sprinters. The title gets moved about after successful battles. If you lose so does your God. The Hebrews and Muslims lost many battles in this world. But the angels do not give up and always want another war or chance to change things back. A return title fight, which is where we are and why we need to find out whether the next war’s opposite sides are not in fact both on the same side. If the gods of all are angels, yes and they are all misled. Go back to the origin of such religions and you find out all you need.

See what you make of this:

“Allat, al-ʿUzza and Manat, the three female goddess of pre-Islamic Arabia, are mentioned in the Qur'an. The notable exception to this is Hubal, whom many consider to be a central figure in the Arabian hierarchy of gods. Why is Hubal, considering he was a prominent figure in the pantheon of gods and goddesses, not mentioned in the Qur'an? This question in itself has raised many more questions, causing many Orientalists to indulge themselves in unreserved speculations. Perhaps the earliest scholar to suggest that Hubal was originally the proper name of Allah in Makkah was the German orientalist Julius Wellhausen. His hypothesis was based on circumstantial evidence and argumentum e silentio. Wellhausen noted that Allah was always a proper name in the Arabic sources and not a common noun. According to him, Allah was the title used within each tribe to address its tribal deity instead of its proper name and that Allah became the Islamic substitute for the name of any idol. Wellhausen suggested that apart from Hubal's known presence in the Kaʿbah, there is no polemic in the Qur'an against him. In other words, while the Qur'an railed against Allat, Manat, and al-ʿUzza, whom the pagan Arabs referred to as the "daughters of Allah", it stopped short of attacking the cult of Hubal. Although such an argument can be applied to any of the pagan idols not mentioned in the Qur'an, such as Dhul-Khalasa and Dhul-Shara, the argumentum e silentio of Wellhausen became a rallying cry for the missionaries and apologists to claim that Hubal was none other than Allah. This is clearly a logical fallacy. It is ironical that the Qur'an itself is ignored to address the issue of Hubal. As mentioned earlier, there were three prominent deities of ancient Arabia mentioned in the Qur'an.
Have you then considered Allat and the ‘Uzza, and Manat, the third, the last? What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division! They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord. [Sūrah al-Najm:19-23]

Similar views are also expressed by D. B. Macdonald in the Encyclopaedia of Islam. He says that ilāh simply means deity. Concerning ilāh he says:
... for the Christians and (so far the poetry ascribed to them is authentic) the monotheists, al-ilāh evidently means God; for the poets it means merely "the one who is worshipped", so al-ilāh indicates: "the god already mentioned"... By frequency of usage, al-ilāh was contracted to Allāh, frequently attested in pre-Islamic poetry (where his name cannot in every case have been substituted for another), and then became a proper name (ism ‘alam)...
ilāh is certainly identical with elōah and represents an expanded form of an element -l- (il, el) common to the semitic languages.
From the discussion, it is clear that in Qatabanian and Sabaean ʾil or ʾilāh has no astral connotations. Furthermore, ʾilh in the Qatabanian and Sabaean dialects is similar to the Arabic ʾilāh and the Hebrew elōah. As we have seen earlier, this is similar to the usage of ʾilāh in Nabataean inscriptions as well as the usage of El in the ancient Near-East.

The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.
It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the five pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and as you will see on the following page, it is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.
For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole.
Based on this history, many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam

reve: Ah so our moon god Thoth's hat was put on all the Mosques at a later date by the Turkish Empire.

There is no point denying that your god is an angel if it is clearly stated in your ‘bibles’. It may not be what you want it to be but the truth is not something you can change, only hide from. Merlin started the Emin and Merlin it turns out is almost certainly an angel, and quite possibly more feminine than masculine. the original creatort Gods - Uranus and Gaia were overthrown by their progeny long, long ago. No one worships them any more. Uranus/ouranos (the heavens) is dead and sterile. Even Gaia has rebelled against the poor chap.

Now Enoch mentions the 'Lord of Spirits' in his book - the Head of days and the Ancient of days and he also mentions the Son of Man . The Lord of Spirits is the head of the angels and Enoch tells us that they have, or some have, rebelled against his draconian authority and insistence they serve a man. Really one can see that insistence in both Christianity and Islam with the man being Jesus or Mohammed. The idea of worshipping anything you do not completely understand, unless you think that your god can be whatever you want it to be rather than what it is, well the idea is ridiculous. What we can serve is a ‘common cause’ but anything more is slavery to something we do not really understand. So to put right the wars between ‘Faiths’ we need to unravel the nonsense bound up in centuries of myth and stop this blind worshipping. To actually give your life in the battle against someone worshipping something else is the height of folly and inhumanity.

The Emin should be investigating arduously what exactly it is and what started it,. So should Islam and the rest. Will they heck.

Reve x

19-09-2012, 03:08 PM
do things by halves what have they done now?

Today another inflammatory 'satirical' article in the French rag 'Charlie Hebdo' depicting Mohammed nude etc. Now who would want to publish this at this time? Although Val is no longer the editor of this mag he published the Danish cartoons of Mohammed. Lest any think this pro Israeli bigoted it is stated here that he sacked Sine for anti Semitism. Last year the mag Charlie Hebdo published another assault on Mohammed, Val apparently sold his shares in Charlie Hebdo last year. Now the mag has done it again. Very suspicious timing and nothing funny about people being killed in the ensuing riots, unless you want to start a war anyway you can.

These people need to come off it and stop this. An injunction for publishing Kate’s breasts is one thing. That was for money but this is for a very dubious purpose and much more serious. This is not how Israel can win this war of minds, just how it will be shown in history when future generations look back at what happened here. See if you can work it out:

“Wikipedia free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Philippe Val (born September 14, 1952) is a French singer, comedian and journalist who is currently director of France Inter. He previously was the editor and director of Charlie Hebdo, a satirical political weekly newspaper.
Life and career
Val was born in Neuilly-sur-Seine. He first became known as a member of the comedy team of Font et Val with Patrick Font in the 70's and 80's. Val is also a musician (a singer and pianist). He performed in the years around 2000 together with Emmanuel Binet on bass. His last album was called simply Philippe Val.
In addition, Philippe Val has had an opinion slot first on environmentalism then on general politics in various programmes on France Inter and is regularly a guest on the program Le premier pouvoir (The First Power), a critique of the media on the radio station France Culture, as well as on I-Télé.
He chose to publish the Danish caricatures of Mohamed. He denounced the danger of the Islamist ideology, a "new totalitarism", and he won the lawsuit the French Islamic organizations started against him. He supports Israel and asserts in his Traité de savoir-survivre par temps obscurs that the Jewish people has offered a lot to mankind and dedicated the victory of the trial to all moderate Muslims.“

This is about the magazine:

Charlie Hebdo wikipedia
A controversy over a column by veteran cartoonist Siné lead to accusation of antisemitism and Siné's sacking by Val. Siné launched a rival paper called Siné Hebdo which lasted two years. Charlie Hebdo launched its Internet site, after years of reluctance from Val.
Debris outside the paper's offices following the November 2011 attack.
Philippe Val resigned after being appointed director of France Inter, a public radio station to which he has contributed since the early 1990s. His functions were split between two cartoonists, Charb (Stéphane Charbonnier) and Riss (Laurent Sourisseau). Val gave away his shares in 2011.
In the early hours of November 2, 2011 the newspaper's office in the 20th arrondissement was fire-bombed and its website hacked. The attacks were presumed linked to its decision to rename a special edition "Charia Hebdo", with the Prophet Mohammed listed as the "editor-in-chief". The cover, featuring a cartoon of Mohammed by Luz (Renald Luzier) had circulated on social media for a couple of days.
Charb was quoted by AP stating that the attack might have been carried out by "stupid people who don't know what Islam is" and that they are "idiots who betray their own religion". Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council of the Muslim Faith, said his organisation deplores "the very mocking tone of the paper toward Islam and its prophet but reaffirms with force its total opposition to all acts and all forms of violence." François Fillon, the prime minister, and Claude Guéant, the interior minister, voiced support for Charlie Hebdo., as did feminist writer Ayaan Hirsi Ali who criticised calls for self-censorship.
In September 2012, the newspaper published a series of satirical cartoons of Mohammed, some of which feature nude caricatures of the Prophet. French Prime inister Jean-Marc Ayrault and Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius condemned the magazine:
"In France, there is a principle of freedom of expression, which should not be undermined...In the present context, given this absurd video that has been aired, strong emotions have been awakened in many Muslim countries. Is it really sensible or intelligent to pour oil on the fire?"
The newspaper's editor defended publication of the cartoons:
"We do caricatures of everyone, and above all every week, and when we do it with the Prophet, it's called provocation” wiki

Reve x
PS He doesn't do caricatures of the Hebrew God and Prophets however.JS

19-09-2012, 05:50 PM
Reuters today seemingly supportive of some insane Frenchmen trying to incite Islam at a time like this:

This week's foray followed another in November 2011 when the weekly enraged Muslims by renaming itself Charia Hebdo, a play on the French word for Islamic sharia law, and in 2006 when it republished Danish cartoons that caused protests and at least 50 deaths worldwide.

To this day, it sticks steadfastly to a tradition that makes waves, and more money when the waves crash hard.

"This is a satirical paper produced by left-wingers and when I say left-wingers that goes all the way from anarchists to communists to Greens, Socialists and the rest. Above all it is a secular and atheist newspaper," said Charbonnier, who signs his own sketches and goes by the name of "Charb".

"When we attack the Catholic hard right...nobody talks about it in the papers. It's as if Charie Hebdo has official authorization to attack the Catholic hard right. But we are not allowed to make fun of Muslim hardliners. It's the new rule...but we will not obey it," he says.

Charbonnier said the heavy demand meant he would print a fresh run of about 70,000 copies to meet demand for the latest controversial edition, as it did when it made waves last year.

(Editing by Mark John and Angus MacSwan

Absolutely editor - attack Muslims, call the Pope a 'crappy Pope'. But if you try taking the mickey out of Israel expect the sack and no more work. It is not satirical, and for anarchist read antichrist. Making fun of Muslim hardliners and getting innocent people killed is not amusing except to hardline settlers on the West Bank who want to evicty all the Muslims and are hoping that by inciting their rage they will find the excuse to do so. If you really are 'satirical' make fun of the settlers and see what happens. They have no sense of humour when they are portrayed as you would soon discover.

I see the mainstream media are jumping on the bandwagon that all protest about such insulting cartoons is evil and unjustified. But it is running alongside the distaste of people all over the world at journalists making money by behaving as peeping toms, and the publishers behaving like them too. Perhaps they would like to make a cartoon of Silvio Berlusconi who is publishing these photos I am told. Has the Royal family upset him in some way? I would call this terrorism in fact as it is trying to cause great violence deliberately.

If Israel goes on like this it will lose its 'anti-Semitic' immunity from any criticism in the mainstream media of its concentration camps for 4 million innocent people, its theft of palestinain owned land, excessive use of force against protestors, its assassination of foreigners in their own countries, and its right to attack any other countries who may be thinking of developing the same kind of bomb that they have and many others do. It will also lose its support and maintenance from the US. All of that is held together by a spiders web, nothing more. Lond ago those forced to tow the Israeli line in the US and UK were disgusted by what they were doing but afraid to be honest. When it comes out it will blurt out and we will see what we hav e been supporting.

That is what a thread like this teaches. People who would not have been critical of the Emin for various reasons can at last take a long hard look at it because others have opened their hearts on what really happened. It only takes a child to point out a naked emperor and that is what is happening all over the world. It is only the emperor who thinks we do not know.

reve x

19-09-2012, 08:25 PM
as all the fuss is over a promise let us have a look at it:

The Promised Land (Hebrew: הארץ המובטחת‎, translit.: Ha'Aretz HaMuvtahat) is the land promised or given by God, according to the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible), to the Israelites, the descendants of Jacob. The promise is first made to Abraham (Genesis 15:18-21) and then renewed to his son Isaac, and to Isaac's son Jacob (Genesis 28:13), Abraham's grandson. The promised land was described in terms of the territory from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates river (Exodus 23:31) and was given to their descendants after the Exodus. (Deuteronomy 1:8)

The term should not be confused with the expression "Land of Israel" which is first used in 1 Samuel 13:19, when the Israelite tribes were already in the Land of Canaan. The term is also used in the Book of Mormon, in which it refers to the American continent

You may notice that the Hebrew tem includes 3 Ha's (Horus). Seems quite clear doesn't it even if it is most unlikely and the God is probably a fallen angel. The God who created the universes would not be allocating tiny portions of a planet in a fraction of its time would he/she. Never mind. It seems that it was made to Abraham - he is the Patriarch of Jews and Muslims alike so that is a promise to them both. Next it is to his son Isaac who as the father of Esau means that it includes the Edomites as well. If promised to Jacob, the brother of Esau, and the man who stole his birthright and blessing and deceived his father Isaac on his deathbed, then that would include all 12 tribes of Israel and not just the Jewish tribe.

Clearly the promiose is to the entire Semitic people which includes all Jews and Arabs living in the Middle East. Can someone tell the rabbis and settlers this. It is in their Torah and they really sholuld know that.

When temples were built before they did not save the bad kings, in fact the 'kings' building them were all bad. One was David who had a man killed so that he could sleep with his wife and abandoned his lawful wife. His son Solomon was worse:

1 Kings 11:1-14 But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites (2) from the nations of whom the LORD had said to the children of Israel, "You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods." Solomon clung to these in love. (3) And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. (4) For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the LORD his God, as was the heart of his father David. (5) For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. (6) Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David. (7) Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. (8) And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. (9) So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, (10) and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD had commanded. (11) Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, "Because you have done this, and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant. (12) Nevertheless I will not do it in your days, for the sake of your father David; I will tear it out of the hand of your son. (13) However I will not tear away the whole kingdom; I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of my servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen." (14) Now the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was a descendant of the king in Edom.

A nasty piece of work who pretended to have wisdom but in fact had a big harem. the place he built for Molech is where they nthrew children screaming on a bonfire that never went out. Again this is in the book that the rabbis study constantly so they do know that.

The next temple was built by Herod and I need not explain how evil he was. That Temple did not last many months and its treasures ended up in Rome.

Someone is trying to hoodwink the world. And as for the Mormon's promised land of America - says who? Mr Smith i presume.

If we go on like this and go to war over this kind of rubbish we can never be justified and will be destroyed (rightly). But as most of us are quite innocent and want nothing to do with it, this would be very unfair.

Does the Emin wish to comment? How can they read this all day after day and say nothing? Leo cannot believe how feeble you are who run his Emin.

reve x

19-09-2012, 09:40 PM
They like to suggest that Ha merely means 'the' and amen means 'so be it' but both a deities. Ha is an angel and Amen is a man, and son of a man, the god of poor people.

wiki: In the Book of Job, ha-Satan is a member of the Divine Council, "the sons of God" who are subservient to God. Ha-Satan, in this capacity, is many times translated as "the prosecutor", and is charged by God to tempt humans and to report back to God all who go against His decrees. At the beginning of the book, Job is a good person "who feared God and turned away from evil" (Job 1:1), and has therefore been rewarded by God. When the Divine Council meets, God informs ha-Satan about Job's blameless, morally upright character. Between Job 1:9–10 and 2:4–5, ha-Satan merely points out that God has given Job everything that a man could want, so of course Job would be loyal to God; if all Job has been given, even his health, were to be taken away from him, however, his faith would collapse. God therefore grants ha-Satan the chance to test Job. Due to this, it has been interpreted that ha-Satan is under God's control and cannot act without God's permission. This is further shown in the epilogue of Job in which God is speaking to Job, ha-Satan is absent from these dialogues. "For Job, for [Job's] friends, and for the narrator, it is ultimately Yahweh himself who is responsible for Job's suffering; as Yahweh says to the 'satan', 'You have incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.'" (Job 2:3) [7]

In the Septuagint the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word devil is derived. Where satan is used of human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.] In Zechariah 3 this changes the vision of the conflict over Joshua the High Priest in the Septuagint into a conflict between "Jesus and the devil", identical with the Greek text of Matthew

Satan (Hebrew: הַשָּׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer",] is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible. In Christianity, the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims). In Islam, a shayṭān is any evil creature, whether human, animal or spirit. With the definite article, the Shayṭān is Iblis, the Devil.

Muddled or what? They do not even know if the devil works for God. But they do know that their revered Kings Saul, David and Solomon were all considered evil by their God. Moses and Joshua supervised genocide, murder of men, women and children by the thousand but they are 'good'. Thus what makes a 'good' Israeli Prime Minister might not be one who is acceptable to. After all they have only succumbed to temptation from God's angel HaSatan.

reve x

19-09-2012, 11:16 PM
Israel seals off East Jerusalem checkpoint serving 65,000 Palestinians

Move contravenes 2008 High Court ruling that conditioned closing of Ras Khamis crossing on the expansion of Shoafat refugee camp's only other checkpoint.

By Oz Rosenberg| 19:52 19.09.12
The Defense Ministry sealed off on Wednesday morning the Ras Khamis checkpoint, one of the only two exits of the Shoafat refugee camp, which serves 65,000 people. The move contravenes a 2008 High Court ruling.Haaretz

IDF soldiers instructed to bar non-Jewish citizens from settlement

Army says Bat Ayin settlement security chief's order exceeds his authority; Soldier in response: 'It felt just like apartheid, or things that recall dark times and the Holocaust – that you allow someone entry to a specific place based only on his religion.'

By Gili Cohen | 18:22 19.09.12

Soldiers guarding Bat Ayin were instructed by the West Bank settlement's military security coordinator not to allow any non-Jew – even one with an Israeli identity card -- through the settlement gate.

World Bank: Palestinian fiscal crisis is deepening

Crisis widening due to reduced donations, higher-than-expected spending on pensions, and economic slowdown in Hamas-run Gaza, according to World Bank.

By The Associated Press | Sep.19, 2012

The World Bank warned Wednesday of a deepening fiscal crisis in the Palestinian territories and appealed to donors to act urgently to prop up the Western-backed Palestinian Authority.

The bank said the finances of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank, have been hurt by reduced donor funding; higher-than-expected spending on pensions and loans; and a revenue shortfall sparked by an economic slowdown, primarily in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip.

In a new report, the bank concluded that sustainable Palestinian economic growth requires strong private sector investment. But it warned that such development is hampered badly because Israel bars Palestinians from 60 percent of the West Bank.

Much of the West Bank's farmland and land reserves are located in that territory, which remains under full Israeli control.


This wonderful Israeli paper named for the promised land (see above) writes what the mainstream media in the world ignores. The thuggery of the Israeli regime, which is overdue for change. When will the world's newspapers that called South Africa - 'Apartheid' call this even worse racial situation by this name too?

reve x

20-09-2012, 09:32 AM
If an Intelligence Agency embarks on an operation it is like Mission Impossible. The gun will be found smoking in the wrong man's hand, almost all MI plots were the same - to frame someone in very clever circumstances.

The 'paparazzi' have long been used by Intelligence Agencies, and the media. Today there is a pre-inquest review of the case of Litvinenko who was poisoned with Polonium (as now suspected with Yasser Arafat's mysterious death in Paris). All the review will do is find out what it was supposed to - that a Russian killed the man. Litvinenko's father knows better although he will not be invited to give his view on who killed who. Russia will get upset with the UK for another 6 years. Let us hope they really are looking for the real culprit and our MI5 help them do that.

Paris comes up a bit these days. The magazine editor has had police protection for a year and the police are protecting the magazine. All say that the right of free speech must not be defeated, although that is exactly what will come out of this.

When Di and Dodi were killed in Paris it was obvious that something was not as presented. But it was very difficult to see who had done what. However it was not Britain or France that did not want Di to marry a Muslim man, nor even the Royal family who had moved on. For history to unravel MI plots you have to see first who ultimately gains.

This is the worry about Al Qaida. No Muslim gains from their activities at all. They foster violence between Sunni and Shiite, one Muslim country against another, and provide a useful label to blame when things go wrong. Who does actually gain from this organisation? Certainly not the CIA who trained Osama.

The Paris magazine did something curious. They made the front cover look like the Closer magazine cover which published Kate's photographs but were showing the boobs inside of Mrs Mohammed. One can see a bit of Di in the Kate conspiracy and of course the darker motive behind these cartoons. The fact that there is no great political outcry against either the film (which has now killed dozens and was made in a State where criticism of Israel = anti-Semitism = illegal) nor political fury at the cartoons tells us something more about the shadows behind this. Politicians in the main are told what they can comment on and what they cannot. Today the man with the Sun in his back jeans pocket will be slagging off Muslims who cannot see the funny side. But he cannot 'see' at all.

So with the Emin. Now late in the day we have to see who did not want the Emin to succeed in healing the world about to die. I would say the same one that inspired it in the first place, and turned up latyer to make sure that it could not work. The angel that tempts men to take multiple wives and turn from the true way.

reve x

PS Old Emin photos anyone? Putney inside? Video of an Emin party - I remember the son of Peter Sellers with an very early video camera at one of these Green Man nights? Come on! A video of Leo? Dont hide in the 'archives' because they will all be burned before they see the light of day at this rate.JS

20-09-2012, 10:32 AM
If you can bothered read this little bit from BBC today:

Two members of the ruling Hamas security forces have been killed in an Israeli air strike in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian officials say.

They died when their car was hit in Rafah, on the border with Egypt, Palestinian sources said.

Israel said it hit "two terror operatives", one "in the final stages of preparing to carry out a terror attack against Israeli civilians".

Violence intermittently flares up across the Israel-Gaza border.

Two weeks ago, six Palestinians, who Israel said were preparing attacks against it, were killed in air strikes in Gaza. Several Israelis and at least two Palestinians were hurt in rocket attacks on Israel, and further air strikes on Gaza, which followed.

Hamas named the two men killed in the latest strike as border guards Lt Ashraf Saleh, 33, and his deputy, Anis Abu al-Aynin, 22.

It said they were "on their routine daily business of inspecting and securing the southern border of the Gaza Strip and Egypt" when they were hit late on Wednesday night.

Pictures from the scene showed crowds of people gathered around the burnt-out wreckage of a white Toyota four-wheel drive.

Israel said the men were affiliated with the Defenders of al-Aqsa, which it described as "a terrorist group sponsored by Hamas".

Militants from small factions not belonging to Hamas often fire rockets into Israel, but Israel has said it holds Hamas responsible for all attacks emanating from Gaza.

Is the West really going to carry on supporting murder in the name of 'fighting terrorists' although that is a quite cynical interpretation of state terrorism. Can you imagine a car hit by a missile, fired from a plane, in your street and two policemen killed in it? This kind of extra judiciary killing will end up in court one day and it is on the conscience of everyone turning a blind eye. Note that they are called 'Defenders of al-Aqsa'. That is the red rag to those who wish to bulldoze down this ancient Mosque and are about to do so.

Now the world leaders and their intelligence advisors know exactly what is going on. They know that the 4 million Palestinians will stay in concentration camps for ever although quite innocent. Unfortunately if they do not work for these thugs, they are frightened of them, but they should know that this evil can only exist because they sanction it and call these murders justice. They will have to face up to that when they die. How sad they cannot hear the cries of those who did the job before them, retired with knighthoods and big pensions and then found themselves deemed mass murderers in the after life. But as Emins do not believe in the voice from the after life no one will, least of all our leaders and their henchmen who go to Church every week, read the lesson and chat to the vicar.

A wicked world running out of time

reve x

20-09-2012, 11:16 AM
Is the Media changing for the better. Sorry to disappoint youWhile on the subject of the media and paparazzi this is interesting for those students of how the world is run by a handful of people:

“The sale of Israeli daily Maariv was finalized on Thursday, with businessman Nochi Dankner selling off the long-running newspaper to Shlomo Ben-Zvi, whose Hirsch Media firm publishes the right-leaning nationalist paper Makor Rishon.

The sale, estimated at NIS 45 million, is expected to result in the dismissal of most of Maariv's 2,000-strong staff. If, as expected, the Maariv... “

“Maariv (Hebrew: מַעֲרִיב‎, lit. Evening) is a Hebrew language daily newspaper published in Israel. It is second in sales after Yedioth Ahronoth and third in readership after Yedioth Ahronoth and Israel HaYom. In a TGI survey comparing the last half of 2009 with the same period in 2008, Maariv saw its market share fall slightly from 13.8 to 13.6 percent. In July 2010, a TGI survey of the media reported that Maariv's daily exposure rate fell from 14.1% to 13.1% and its weekend edition dropped from 18.2% to 16.1% in the last six months.
Maariv's editor in chief is Yoav Tzur who succeeded Doron Galezer and Ruth Yuval who quit in protest of continued b”udget cutbacks.

“Makor Rishon (Hebrew: מָקוֹר רִאשׁוֹן‎‎, "primary source") is an Israeli daily newspaper, identified with conservative national and religious values.
It is published in Tel Aviv; most of its readership is made up of paying subscribers. During the week, Makor Rishon is published in tabloid format. The weekend edition, published on Friday, is a broadsheet.
The editor-in-chief is Amnon Lord, an experienced Israeli journalist and writer who started his career in the left-wing Peace Now movement, editing its now-defunct weekly Koteret Rashit. Lord changed his views following the Oslo Accords. In Lord's editorials and op-ed articles, there are still frequent expressions of support for Binyamin Netanyahu, evident especially during and following the 2006 elections” wikipedia

“Who leans to the left and who moves to the right? which paper supports Netanyahu and who goes after him? a short guide to the subtleties of the Hebrew press
Newspapers in Israel have always been of great importance. One of the first things early Zionists did in Palestine was to create their own Hebrew papers. Every major political faction had its own publication, usually a national daily. Even today, with the decline of printed journalism, papers are still widely read, especially among opinion makers.

The Hebrew papers raise issues and frame political questions; Knesset members often quote news items and op-eds during Knesset debates, and Knesset committees conduct debates on issues exposed by the printed media. It is worth noting that Israel has never had strong local daily papers, so the printed media always tended to deal with national questions of diplomacy, politics and security, and less with local issues such as crime and local policies. So if you want to understand Israeli society and Israeli politics, you need to understand Hebrew printed media.
The old party papers died over the last two decades or so, and today’s papers don’t have a certain partisan affiliation. Papers in Israel usually don’t endorse candidates or parties, but they do have a political line. In the cases of Haaretz and Yisrael Hayom this line is very clear. With Maariv – and especially with Yedioth – it tends to be more subtle, and has changed over the years.
Here is a short guide to the political lines taken by Israel’s newspapers these days. Remember that these assessments are subjective as well, and reflect my own views and knowledge. Disclaimer: I worked for Maariv and for Yedioth’s internet division in the past, and in the past six months I have written a few stories for Haaretz.

Yisrael Hayom

Market Share (June 2010): 35 percent on weekdays, 25.7 on weekends.
Internet site: Yisrael Hayom (Hebrew, printed edition only).

Politics: According to most estimates, Sheldon Adelson’s free tabloid, which is circulated in 250,000 copies, is losing money. But Adelson’s intention in launching the paper was not to gain profits, but political influence.
Adelson’s paper is edited by a former proxy to Netanyahu, Amos Regev. Under Regev, Israel Hayom is extremely supportive of the Prime Minister, constantly pushing stories that present Netanyahu and his family in a positive way. Recently, the paper is taking on an even more nationalistic editorial line.
[A more detailed post about the ties between Yisrael Hayom and Netanyahu can be found here.]
Yisrael Hayom is very hostile to the Palestinians; it tends to emphasize security threats and to present a favorable coverage of some of the new Knesset bills which are aimed against the Arab minority, Arabs members of Knesset and leftwing NGO’s (though one could find in it from time to time an occasional op-ed expressing different views).
Yisrael Hayom is supportive of the State Prosecution and the Supreme Court, but only on corruption issues, not civil rights ones.


Market Share (June 2010): 12.5 percent on weekdays, 16.1 on weekends.
Internet site: nrg (Hebrew only).

Politics: for years, Maariv was Yedioth’s greatest enemy (when I moved from Ynet to Maariv in 2003, I was told by one of the senior editors that I would never write for Yedioth again), but now both papers join hands in the battle against Yisrael Hayom.
Maariv ran into financial difficulties more than six years ago, and since then it has been changing its editors and CEO’s frequently. A new team of editors (Yoav Zur and Yoav Golan), and a new co-publisher (businessman Zachi Rachiv) seem to have stabilized the paper a bit recently.
Under its new editors, Maariv has taken a sharp turn to the right. The paper’s subtle criticism of Netanyahu could be a bit misleading. Maariv keeps a very nationalistic and conservative line. It was Maariv that launched the campaign against the New Israel Fund by publishing the Im Tirzu reports. The paper is extremely hostile to the Arab population and to human rights organizations, and recently, it shows a hospitable attitude to the settlement project (a recent double spread all but invited people to live in Tapuach, a settlement formally known as the stronghold of Kahane supporters). Among Israeli papers, Maariv is the most supportive of Avigdor Lieberman’s policies, and it usually presents a somewhat favorable coverage of the bills Israel Beitenu is trying to pass in the Knesset.
Rumors have it that it was a conscious decision by Maariv’s editors and managing board to take an editorial line that would exploit the current nationalistic trends in the Israeli society. The promotion of conservative contributors such as Kalman Livskind and Ben-Dror Yemini support this theory. Yemini is known for his campaigning against “lefty” influence in the Israel academia and media. He has repeatedly called to hold state funds from critical movies and from artists and professors who are “anti-Israeli”. Last week he published a double spread attacking Haaretz journalist Gidon Levi for an interview he gave to the Independent.
The bottom line for Maariv: Highly conservative on security; anti-civil rights, anti-Supreme Court; slightly critical of Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
UPDATE: Maariv was bought by Israeli tycoon Nochy Dankner, and is currently (fall 2011) edited by Nir Chefetz, former spokesperson for PM Binyamin Netanyahuu.

Market Share (June 2010): 6.4 percent on weekdays, 7.4 on weekends.
Internet site: Haaretz (English site here).
Politics: Haaretz was Israel’s liberal paper for many years, and one could claim that it’s the only paper committed to supporting civil rights and promoting democratic values. By Israeli standards, Haaretz is very critical of the IDF, thought in the past few years the paper was criticized for pushing Palestinians’ civil right issues into its back pages. Many leftwing activists and politicians are also dismayed by the liberal line Haaretz tends to take on economical issues.
Haaretz’s editorial line is very critical of Netanyahu and Lieberman, though some important contributors, such as Ari Shavit and Yoel Marcus are less clear on the issue. Haaretz journalist Amira Hass is especially known for her work on Palestinian rights issues.
Haaretz’ circulation is not substantial – it’s almost similar to that of the unimportant free tabloid Israel Post – but it is widely read and discussed by public opinion makers, politicians, diplomats and the international press, so it has a more substantial weight than its numbers. Nevertheless, it’s important to remember that very few Israelis actually read Haaretz.
The bottom line for Haaretz: liberal on security, civil rights and economy; supportive of the Supreme Court; very critical of Netanyahu’s government.”


Meanwhile spare a thought for Jordan who is caring for 200,000 Syrian refugees and reduced to putting them in yet more camps. They have received very little help from the international community. Would you not expect Israel to be helping their neighbours fleeing from a despot, or would that be from the frying pan into the fire. Can the UN please give some serious money to help these unfortunate people living in camps and at least match what the |US gives to Israel at the expense of its own homeless and hungry citizens.

Can the Emin please compensate its own victims too - contact me and I will provide the details to a manager, preferably Ethra who ran the Emin at the time. Someone needs to keep the campaign going for these people and it seems to just be me. Sorry to be repetitive but unless you keep your hand up for a few months the usher will not notice you if he does not want to.

Reve x

20-09-2012, 12:46 PM
Someone needs to keep the campaign going for these people and it seems to just be me.

Er, there might just be another reason why it's only you.

20-09-2012, 04:00 PM
Because hardly anyone cares about a woman raped by an usher 36 years ago, nor a little girl raped by her step father 30 years ago, but I do and Leo certainly does at it counts against him. Their lives were torn apart through no fault of their own and the crimes hidden from view deliberately.

To be forgiven for something you need to admit it, have enough remorse to compensate the victims and change. I carry on my campaign because this was the top of an iceberg in the Emin according to the senior usher John/Orion at that time of the child abuse and I was a close friend of the girl raped.

Most people do not know or care about the 4 million Palestinians in concentration camps either, why they have been there for 40 years and why their ancestral land is being stolen day by day. The olive groves that have not been bulldozed provide Israel with an income which is not hers. The olive branch represents peace, but to the Palestinian it represents a world that abandoned them to the settlers, just like the Red Indians 200 years ago.

Why me not you JennM? Because you do not care and insist this is the wrong place to put your hand up, even though I have tried every way I can to contact the Emin. You are just what the Emin ushers were and probably are. Rather heartless on the outside, very protective on the inside and programmed.


20-09-2012, 04:21 PM
You are just what the Emin ushers were and probably are. Rather heartless on the outside, very protective on the inside and programmed.

Wow. What was that about insults, Reve? Oh, sorry, it's not an insult, is it; it's your accurate assessment of my character.

I carry on my campaign because this was the top of an iceberg in the Emin according to the senior usher John/Orion at that time of the child abuse

This is rather akin to 'A bloke down the pub said . . . '. And here's the thing, Reve: why do you believe one usher but not another - i.e. I'm telling you there was no iceberg.

20-09-2012, 07:08 PM
I am sure you remember him well from Leo's senior group. He was running Putney at that time. I would not call the man a liar. He did have quite a brusque demeanor but was one of the better ushers and certainly more honest ones. He did however decide that an occult attack against the Emin had been conducted through me causing a bit of a panic but I am sure he would be smiling to read that now. I had a bit of a go one evening about where had the old 'Emin' gone. Did he like that? No.

reve i

20-09-2012, 07:41 PM
Hold on, I need to try and unpick this. So John is one of the honest ushers but most (including me by the sound of it) aren't. And how exactly are you able to determine this, Reve? Next, you say John claimed you'd caused an occult attack against the Emin. But the fact you think he'd be smiling to read this now indicates you believe it didn't really happen. I'm confused: when someone claims Reve is launching occult attacks, it's not true; but when Reve claims he's being occultly attacked, it is true. Have I got it? It's very difficult keeping up with your all-knowing wisdom, especially when it seems to contradict itself so much. But that's probably just my lack of wisdom in not understanding all the cosmic nuances of you guru-in-waiting types. We should perhaps send you a list of ushers so you can tell us which were/are the honest ones and which are the heartless programmed ones.

20-09-2012, 09:35 PM
We have reached 99,010 and perhaps should return to the real occult. I cannot help you JennM try asking Leo.

These are some of the oldest texts in the world written in stone in the Pyramid of the 5th Dynasty Pharaoh Unas.

wiki: Unas ( /ˈjuːnəs/) or Oenas ( /ˈiːnəs/; also spelled Unis or Wenis and occasionally Stanley) was a Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt, and the last ruler of the Fifth dynasty from the Old Kingdom. His reign has been dated between 2375 BC and 2345 BC. He built a small pyramid at Saqqara, originally named "Beautiful are the places of Unas", close to the Step Pyramid of Djoser. It has been excavated by Vyse, Barsanti, Gaston Maspero, Firth, Selim Hassan, A. Husein, and Alexandre Piankoff. Its interior is decorated with a number of reliefs detailing events during his reign as well as a number of inscriptions. However, Jaromir Malek considers "the main innovation of Unas' pyramid, and one that was to be characteristic of the remaining pyramids of the Old Kingdom (including some of the queens), was the first appearance of the Pyramid Texts". These texts were inscribed in Sixth Dynasty royal versions, but Unas's texts contains verses and spells which were not included in the later 6th dynasty copies. The pyramid texts were intended to help the king in overcoming hostile forces and powers in the Underworld and thus join with the Sun God Ra, his divine father in the afterlife...wiki

They are very beautiful and you can see some of them here:

unas pyramid texts - Google Search

There are too many to paste here but these are interesting to me:

“Utterance 246
252: See! This Unas stands among (you), two horns are on his head (like) two wild bulls, for you are indeed the black ram, son of a black sheep, born of a bright sheep, suckled by four sheep-mothers.

253. He comes against you, Horus with blue eyes. Beware of the Horus with red eyes, whose anger is evil, whose power one cannot withstand! His messengers go, his quick runners run, they announce to the One-who-lifts-his-arm-in-the-East

254: that the Unique One in you is going away, (of whom) the God(?) said:
"He will give orders to (my) fathers, the gods".
The gods are silent before you, the Ennead has put their hands before their mouths, before the one in you of whom the God said:
"He will give orders to (my) fathers, the gods".

255: Step to the doors of the horizon, and the doors of the Cool Region open (themselves).
You stand there, ruling over them as Geb rules over his Ennead.
They come in, they strike down evil (with magical spells),
they come out, their faces are lifted up.

256: They see you as Min, who rules over the Two Shrines.
He stands, who stands behind you;
Your brother stands behind you;
Your relative stands behind you;
You do not go under, you will not be annihilated,
your name remains with men,
your name comes into being with the gods. ..

Utterance 308
487: To say the words:
"Hail to you, Horus in the Horite Sites!
Hail to you, Seth in the Sethan Sites!
Hail to you, Reed God (jArw) in the Fields of Rushes!

488: Hail to you, the Two Harmonious Ones, daughters of the four gods who are at the head of the Great Castle (Hw.t aA.t), you who came out at the voice of Unas, naked!

489: Unas saw you, as Horus saw Isis.
Unas saw you as Neheb-kau saw Serqet.
Unas saw you as Sobek saw Neith.
Unas saw you as Seth saw the Two Harmonious Ones."

Utterance 224
218: To say the words: "Awake, Unas! Turn around, Unas! [courtyard circular procession?] You have gone to give orders to the places of Horus, you have gone to give orders to the places of Seth, you have gone to give orders to the places of Osiris.

219: A royal offering of all your insignia,

220: in all your places! Your lotus-shaped scepter is at the head of the living, your staff is at the head of the spirits, like Anubis Khentimentiu, like Andjti at the head of the western nomes.

221: How pleasant is your condition! You become a spirit, o Unas, among your brothers the gods. How changed, how changed (is your state)! (Therefore) protect your children! Beware of your border which is on Earth! Put on your body and come towards them!
(To say) four times:

Utterance 133
83: Osiris Unas, take the Eye of Horus, towards which he goes!
One spleen.
Utterance 134
Osiris Unas, take the Eye of Horus, which is on his brow!
One ha-meat.
Utterance 135
84: Osiris Unas, take the Eye of Horus, which is on the brow of Seth!
Meat, forequarter.
Utterance 136
Osiris Unas, take the severed heads of the Followers of Seth!
One ra-goose [sacrificed stage II].
Utterance 137
85: Osiris, take this heart?s desire!
To say four times: one Trp-goose.
Utterance 138
Osiris Unas, take the Eye of Horus, which he has brought.
One st-goose.


Reve: Very little progress has been made on understanding the many spells in these Pyramids. What is certain is that they were already very ancient when inscribed. I pasted the above just to give a flavour of what is there. The website here has a very good translation and shows which walls they are on, which is highly significant. They are spells to protect the ka of Unas on his journey in many cases. I thought we might look at what the texts can tell us about the occult.


21-09-2012, 06:36 AM
There has been a lot of speculation on the web the past few weeks about this Iranian scientists claimed advancements in plasma-based free energy. The details of which are due to be revealed today, so I am very interested to see what comes of this in the follwing hours.

"The Keshe Foundation, located in Ninov, Belgium, has announced that they will be releasing the first phase of its space technology and the gravitational and magnetic (Magravs) system it has developed to all scientists around the world simultaneously for the purposes of production and duplication, which the foundation says will allow travel from Iran to New York in approximately ten minutes of travel time, as well as provide free energy systems for citizens worldwide. Following the release of these energy and space technologies, the foundation will address worldwide food and water shortages which will be resolved, they state, through the sharing of their plasma based technologies.
(There is no indication that the Keshe Foundation is affiliated in any way with the plans of the Galactic Federation of Light to introduce free energy technologies as well as food replicator systems.)
If interested in learning more about the Keshe Foundation and their subsidiary group the Keshe International Space Institute, visit the Keshe Foundation’s website by following the link provided below and read their mission statement detailing their plan to release these designs to all scientists worldwide on September the 21st 2012.

21-09-2012, 09:31 AM
is the mother of invention. During WW2 so many technologies were developed in such a short time, including computers and nuclear weapons. It looks as though Iranian nuclear scientists have been busy and this may lie behind the paranoia of those who have been kicking this kid around the playground.

It is certainly true that Iran brought down a drone, not shot it down - brought it down. Keshe attributes this to their magrav technology which uses a magnetic wave to disrupt communications from a distance. He claims that once touched by this a fighter jet needs complete rewiring, an aircraft carrier becomes a museum piece etc. But primarily the technology is to take the human forward.

Coincidentally he mentions that it can protect a craft in deep space from radiation. This has been a big worry for space travellers and particularly the angels who want to leave Earth. A curious comment made by the inventor is for the US to share their UFO technology with Iran in exchange. I note today the last Shuttle is officially a museum piece and the factory that made it and Apollo is being torn down. Are we going to find out that the US have UFO's after all this time? It is suggested that the drone was brought down by an Iranian flying saucer.

It seems that Obama did make an executive order on April 23 but i cannot see by looking at it how it affects this technology. Anyway it would be terrifying if all were true as satellites would be particularly vulnerable, all our defences too. It would be back to the days of hand to hand combat which would change the balance of power, or worse power in the hands of those with the ray, which is the stuff of 1950's science fiction if not HG Wells. China and Russia have been against attacking Iran which also says something.

Let us hope it is all about free energy, better health and an ability to clean up the world. If it is true then in my mind there is still a question about who brought/inspired this technology. Is it for the angels, or to stop them leaving and destroying the world?

FG a masterpiece again and we may find out later today what is in store. What a time to insult the Prophet! I was glad to see Obama and Clinton taking steps to put this right. Behind the scenes I daresay they are glaring at the real culprit.

Our time is almost up - either there is a massive change ahead some of us or nothing.

This is from Keshe himself, a nuclear scientist probably living in constant fear of assassination:

" As I said in my Sunday interview in Los Angeles, let us convert the military factories of the US to provide resources for a US space organization, so that the tools of war become the craft of universal peace.

The aircraft carriers of the US will become nothing but floating bathtubs if our Magravs technology is used effectively, and the runways full of F16s and 18s and so on will be nothing but runway museums of iron birds, as these craft will not be able to fly if their electronic systems are once touched by Magravs space technology. These crafts and battleships would have to be rewired from A to Z before they could ever operate again.

President Obama, we invite you to understand this change and to let us show you the technology that is bringing it about. Then we invite you to the table of world peace.

Please sign a decree for genuine peace and not a gagging order for science and technology, which your people understand fully what we have developed as they try to protect the pride of your nation.

This is not a question of the pride of one group or country, but pride for all of us in the advancement of the human race...."

reve x
Happy Autumn Equinox

21-09-2012, 10:10 AM
on fg's revelation:

by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News

Sunday, I conducted a live, 2:20-hour Skype Video interview with Mehran Keshe of the Keshe Foundation. The second half of the show was opened to the audience to ask questions, via the Smart Scarecrow's chat interface.

Keshe wanted to do the interview prior to his pending September 6 private meeting with government delegates from around the world, all of whom have been invited, though not all have accepted the invitation, and some are hesitant to attend due to the U.S.' pressure to not attend, while others yet are attending despite that pressure.

He said the reason the US in pressuring others not to attend is because the Foundation technology will level the field among the nations of the world so that the most disadvantaged nations can have a defense capability that renders attacks ineffective and even karmic, with the ability to "return to sender". It makes essentially all Western military technology obsolete.

He described in simple terms how the electromagnetic-gravitic forces work to enable turning even simple vehicles such as an automobile into craft that can defy gravity and travel at Mach 30-40. He said that African nations are considering the technology to replace rail.

I asked him how many people understand the technology well enough to replicate it. He replied: 20-30,000 people, primarily Iranian scientists. That is how they intercepted the US drone last December and landed it without harm. (Part I, II)

Here's a video of the interview. It already has 5,000+ views even prior to my putting it here in our PESN news.


reve x

21-09-2012, 04:23 PM
This will only make sense to some of you, apologies to the rest. There are a lot of spells on the walls of Unas - these are on the most important western wall of the sarcophagus chamber where the mummy was found (or some of it).

From the Pyramid of Unas (translation on Vincent Brown’s site):

Utterance 240
244: To say the words:
"The uraus is for the sky, the centipede of Horus is for the earth.
Horus, an oxherd, treads.
Unas has trod upon the walk of Horus.
Unas knows not, Unas is not knowing.

Reve: The uraus is the cobra and the sky goddess is Nut (Nuit, Neith, Night). She was the mother of Osiris, Isis etc. Rfe forbade her to have children an any day of the year - then 360 days, so Thoth made another 5 ‘intercalary days’ for her to have her 5 children after which Re separated her from her husband the earth God Geb. The centipede protected the dead see * below. The uraus was worn by Unas and this spell explains that Horus, the grandson of Nut is an earthling and Unas has like Horus been an earthling, in the state of ignorance as they are and Horus (actually an angel) still is at this time.

245: A face is upon you, you who are in his naut-bush.
You should be lain on your back, you who are in his hole.
Meat for the pot of Horus, escape into the earth!
O let the beast, O desert, glide away!"

Reve: The naut-bush is the tree of Nut usually depicted as the sycamore tree, also sacred to Re, Osiris whose sarcophagus was swallowed by one which grew round it when it reached Byblos,and sacred to Isis and Hathor (lady of the sycamore). Here the spell is to Osiris who is also Unas the Pharoah. In a previous spell on this west wall was one to the serpent telling it to lie on its back, and mentioning its hole which ties it to the earth and graves. Here the spell is likening Unas to the Earth serpent, lying dead (on his back) in his hole. There he is - food for the angel Horus but the spell implores his to break away from the earth (not possible for the fallen angels). And it then asks Seth, the desert god, to let this reptile Unas glide away - leave the earth.

Utterance 241
246: To say the words:
"Spit of the wall, vomit of the brick, what comes out of your mouth will be thrown back against yourself."

This is a protection spell for the body lest the tomb flood or decay. It seems to have worked quite well as although the pyramid is no more than a heap of stones, the chambers within are more or less intact 4,500 years later. These texts were intricately carved when the second phase of Stonehenge was being dragged into place. The mummy needs to be protected to enable the dead king to have his physical body after death in addition to his ka, shadow, name, soul etc.

Utterance 242
247: To say the words:
"Extinguished is the flame!
The flame-serpent is not to be found in the house of he who possesses Ombos.
It is a serpent which will bite, which has slipped into the house of him whom it will bite, that it may remain in it."

Reve: The flame serpent is the cobra or uraus on the king’s brow. But it has been quieted. He who possess Ombos ** is Seth ande this says that there is no urauis or kingship ion his house (family tree) having been dispossessed by Horus the centipede. The warning is that Horus will bite (centipedes are venomous) the kings and remain in them - this is the worm I have written about. Ancient Egyptians were infested with worms - bilharzia is still a problem but others bite bare feet and infest the host too. Are you your own ka - or do you serve another’s ka? Depends if you worship Horus really.

Utterance 243
248: To say the words:
"Two Hts-scepters and two Hts-scepters for two djema-ropes and two djema-ropes!
As bread!
Interlace then!
You should be here indeed, you should be here indeed.
Servant! Take away!

The Egyptians had quite a few sceptres signifying power, some derived from weapons like the mace. The hts sceptre was a defensive stick with a lump in its middle, and a shortened version of the one used in predynastic fights. It was perhaps used against snakes, here called djema ropes, sometimes written as strips of papyrus. It is a trade like buying bread - 4 sticks of power for 4 snakes. Interlace refers to them entwining around a sceptre. The servant is the priest. He is to catch these serpents who have bitten the pharaoh and to take them away magically.

* Sepa
The ancient Egyptians could see that insects attacked dead bodies, but centipedes fed on the insects. They concluded that the centipedes protected the dead as they were an aspect of Osiris. In this form, he was known as Sepa or Sep (meaning centipede) and was depicted either as a centipede or as a mummified figure with two horns. As centipedes are venomous, Sepa was considered to have power over other venomous animals and could be invoked for protection against snake bites and scorpion stings. Centipedes also follow the earthworms which improve the fertility of soil, leading to their association with fertility. Sepa was sometimes given the head of a donkey (to reflect the fact that donkey manure was used to improve the fertility of soil

**The prehistoric town was known as Nubt. Seth, the Egyptian god of disorder, had his cult center at Naqada, which was called Ombos by the Greeks. Nubt means city of gold.

Master these spells and you master the after life journey, which few ever have
Reve x

21-09-2012, 05:35 PM
at least 50 families not seeing the funny side of the film and cartoons as they mourn.

I am wondering whether magrav - the ray said to cancel out gravity and all electrical signals in its path while lashing any electrics with its magnetic property - is what Nostradamus predicted appearing at the time of the games. is it a bluff to make the US and Israel wary of attackiong Iran (Israel seem even more desperate to get US to do this for them not surprisingly) or is it the real thing? Noise cannot travel across a vacuum but gravity can, if this can prevent gravity from crossing we will be weightless and be able to travel at phenomenol speeds out of the solar system.

We have not mafe many strides forward since the missile and jet engine were invented in WW2. Unless the US really did create all those UFO's and not tell us about them apart from them probably being weather balloons.

It is curious how if one denies something, or keeps it secret from a partner, it does not get easier to come clean after many years. A partner might say 'what for all these years you have made me live your lie' if say his son turns out not to be his son at all (10% of sons and daughters are not the children of their fathers unbeknown to them). It is better usually to be honest at the first opportunity.

With religions a thousand or two years of deceptions makes it even harder. Even 40 years seems insurmountable. It is the worm that will not be evicted from the body having had time to invade all the major organs. But initially a mild purge of say bracken would have done it.

we will see

reve x

21-09-2012, 07:07 PM
Quite unsure what to make of it really, there is very little info on it online. I have seen Keshe's presentation in Belgium but it the physics is beyond my grasp. If this is true though then I am sure there would be people against this technology and it is the same people who wouldn't want peace and progress. Funnily enough I am reminded of another rap lyric from a British political rapper (white man from Leeds) called Braintax.

"Better get yourself an electric car
Bush blocked the investment in that so far
Cause he’s Texas born, he’s a Texas man
To the HumVee drivers and the Lexus fans:
You don’t need them big machines
For the shopping or the school run - that’s obscene!"

Of course free energy is not an attractive idea and that was shown in the days of and after Tesla, however Keshe says it would have to be 'on the meter' so to speak.

Tomorrow night the notorious Area 51 will supposedly have it's UFO secrets revealed at a Las Vegas Smithsonian museum. http://www.nationalatomictestingmuseum.org/docs/Sept.%2022%20lecture1.2-2.pdf

Reverendsquid I hadn't heard of that band or song but am familiar with 'Mos Def' who you say was on their album - his band was Black Star - named after Garvey's boats or maybe another reference to the Black 'Sun'.

21-09-2012, 07:14 PM
Another Braintax song in which he addresses Israels apartheid:

Braintax - The Beast Is Us - YouTube

[George Galloway talking]
...to face the fact
That in a democratic country, we are responsible for what our government's do
And the only way we can expiate that responsibility is to
Use every breath we have, everything we can do
To demonstrate our utter rejection of the criminal acts of our government's

[Verse 1]
Apartheid on West Bank - nobody cares
Shots coming from the left flank, the kids unaware
Refugee camps a death camp, live by the flares
The media treat me like I got opinions nobody shares?
My politics is more than just 'fuck Tony Blair
Gordon Brown, David Cameron', that's why I'm still standing
I'm more inclined to expose Israel to their apartheid
Bring on your excuses, the truth is you can't hide
Even when our politicians in the West act righteous and pious
Doing what they do best - start talking all about road maps and shit
While Israelis are busy busting caps and shit
Got the bulldozers out and constructing shit
Displace another farmer but that land is his
When Hamas fired rockets Israel rebounds
Kills five times more, locks the checkpoints down
How the fuck you putting checkpoints there to start with?
When that land's Palistinian, it's known and it's chartered
Collective punishment, they dish it out daily
So I hate Israel but I don't hate Israelis
Do you get that? Think a little bit before you get pissed
And is it any wonder Gaza kids adopt a death wish?
And don't beleive that being Jewish is the same as being pro-Zionist
That's a Zionist game to make you think cussing Israel's a racist view
I don't think so, but I'll tell you what racists do
To make you think that other people are stupid and mean
And get to killing 'em - Like Sharon did in Geneve
Start provoking 'em - Like Sharon did at Temple Mount
Same way Bush is always calling Muslims out
Same way the Home Office over here is always calling minorities out
Calling you racists out
Fuck some 'baby baby' shit, some 'get dough, f*** a bitch' gravy gravy shit
You wanna be like "I was too serious"
I'll say stay ignorant and I'll stay curious

Ask the rest of the world - The beast is us
Wanna buy another weapon - The beast is us
Wanna get away with murder - The beast is us
We're the West and the beast is us
Ask the rest of the planet - The beast is us
Want to buy another missile - The beast is us
Yesteryear was just bombs from Russia with love
But nowadays I guess the beast is us (The beast is us)

[Verse 2]
Short memories I lace melodies
Spit 'bout crimes we forget for the sake of our own little tragedy's
Incidental maladies
Irrelivant like a fucking Akon ballad is
The biggest shame of this society we live in
While we act all spiritual when we're money driven
It's the way we forget in a hell of a rush
Like 'If it ain't affecting me then I ain't too fussed'
Then there's bombs on the street and us Brits get shaky
But how can we be shocked - Check our leadership lately?
They're rattling sabres, talking 'bout Jesus
Fundementalist believers acting like crusaders
Memories are short over here
The zeitgeist is a truck that the media steer
So we ain't on the streets protesting
We're stuck in front of TV sets digesting
Forgetting about the lies and the unfound weapons
Suggestions, the questions we should be asking journalists are slacking
I'm BRAAAIIIIN taxing - the opposite of asprin
Blood is on the streets in the East their soaking it up
Bush & Blair making me a target - and I'm not too pleased
There's no peace when the beast is us


[Woman reporter talking]
... We see other families in the area suffer very heavy casualties
Perhaps 160 wounded were taken to Gaza City Shifa Hospital last night
There are more than two dozen still in hospital
Head wounds, fractures, burns from flying pieces of metal
Among them are many children
The very high civillian casualty toll from the assasination attempt
Has really fuelled the fire of revenge here
People are saying that Hamas is retaliatory
That strike against Israel is inevitable now
And that likely means a suicide attack on Israeli cities

21-09-2012, 07:22 PM
Free Energy - Nuclear Engineer M.T. Keshe @ ElektorLive! - YouTube

Here is the quite long presentation by Keshe as he provides some of the explanations behind what he is claiming to have achieved.

22-09-2012, 11:00 AM
are deceptive. Good old organic farming is labour intensive and limited in produce. Chemicals appeared to be the answer, then genetic modification. Energy is required to make the human's life easier and faster but for what? If the aim of an individual human is to gain enlightenment and release (get into heaven in other words) then energy - free or not - will not aid this. Computers and websites are there with the knowledge we once had to find in books and masters, but there is no magic bullet.

Martial arts has its heroes. These artists perform incredible feats of agility and strength, but even so a good old fashioned boxer provides them with the stiffest opposition and the boxer is not kicking and punching the back of the neck, nor tripping up his opponent. Any great martial artist will confirm this and this is why so many including Bruce Lee loved to watch boxing. A student may eventually overcome his master in martial art, but only be hard work and training. It is not an innate ability. The art was never to fight but to teach your self and your body.

The occult is no different. In my lifetime I have seen a number of 'ways' appear which were promising instant results and Leo's Emin is but one. Again what is being acquired is not an innate ability. Man is a beast and to strive to be more is a luxury in a world where the survival of the fittest dictates who eats what. For that reason many ascetics left the world for deserts, caves, and anywhere out of reach of commerce.

Corporations are the modern beasts and rule us and politicians. David Icke's latest newsletter tells about the man leading food safety in the US who has a background in genetic modification. Of course - that is big business. Oil industries are not looking for free energy, nor the owners of nuclear power stations. Armament manufacturers are not looking for world peace. These 'beasts' have been very efficient in making their aims and mission possible at the expense of the human. They cannot be controlled, least of all by the politicians they have put in place. They are not human (obviously).

One of the biggest illusions is that the building of a third temple will lead to the human enlightenment and the re-appearance of the Messiah. It is used by corporations like the churches and synagogues so they can stay in business. The cost is in millions of lives but 'beasts' do not count them, because they really are free energy.

The Pyramid texts are most ancient and reveal the extraordinary effort made by a culture to try to get one person per generation to the end of the human's journey. The after life journey was for the Pharaoh. The texts, priests, spells and offerings were just for him. The offerings to his 'ka' continued in the Mortuary temples for centuries, even millenia for these monarchs. Just as the Tibetan Book of the Dead was for reading to a departed master to remind him what he needed to know and to avoid distractions and easy choices, these texts were for a departed master too. The Pharaoh was trained as a priest and magician from childhood like many martial artists. He lived separated from the rest of humanity and it was considered that his intercession in the after life protected all the citizens on earth.

In trying to make enlightenment possible for the searcher this all needs to be borne in mind. It is not a natural ability, it is dangerous and arduous. It is all consuming in fact - the last thing most want. Most want the quick fix, not a permanent - eternal solution. That is too expensive as it takes everything. Indeed history records it taking everything a country had to produce one person who could justify this extraordinary effort.

Buddhist temples and monasteries are to enable students to progress over many lives gradually to approach the possibility of release. They also supported that one bodhisattva who had already been successful and had returned to help them out. But increasingly the work of these masters has been to clean our astral world from the evil of men.

All the people I met in the early Emin wanted their enlightenment and release. They wanted to save the planet and at one time it seemed that they were indeed the ancient masters and mistresses returned to do that. Now the Emin is a corporation and the illusion has faded. Nevertheless it is possible to progress. You just have to decide how far you wish to progess and thus devote that proportion of your life. But some of you want it all. If you do then note the ancient Pyramid Texts. You will have to be your ka and to do that you need to allow it to discipline you. It will never kill. The Negative confessions (I have not killed, I have not deprived a man of his bread etc) will show that this path is completely benign and sociable, impossibly so.

It starts not by changing your name as we were told but by finding that one at the end of your life so that it will be present throughout your life. It means you cannot be a gun for hire and serve any religion or other ka or master. You will discover your real name but by then you will no longer be the you that you were who only wanted to be rich, successful and predatory. It is worth thinking about as the collection plate come round.

reve x

22-09-2012, 12:26 PM
For me it did, I have three names at the moment, my given name, my emin name and my Islamic name.
Upon entering 'Her Majesties Hotels, I was charged with using or abusing 17 different names.
Now, with all this 'useful but not very esoteric information you have gleaned from the internet and wikipedia, have you reached any level higher than the normal human ?
Why do I ask ?
Because, you harp on about incidents 3O years past which are not proven and are just your hearsay, it is obvious to our glorious 1OO,OOO highly mute viewers this for you is a huge problem.
Move on Reve, illumination is just around the corner, if you can forgo your personnel luggage...T

22-09-2012, 01:22 PM
First of all, thanks to Feralgoose for posting about the Keshe Foundation. I have watched a few of Keshe's presentations on Youtube and listened to his radio/internet interviews and it was a bit like those "get rich quick" scams that appear to offer you that information but never quite get to the point and then when they think they've got you hooked and you are so desperate for that chance to make easy money, suddenly you have to sign up and this will cost you a monthly fee of.....

Am not saying Keshe is a scam, but I think in line with Reve's comments, we want instant enlightenment or an easy path - particularly if following that path will also get you a better career as you can use that knowledge to your material advantage along with providing more coffers for the spiritual corporation you are attached to.

So back to Keshe, the technological solution he claims to provide does fit incredibly well into the mould of conspiracy theory. How many of us really understand nuclear physics well enough to be able to either understand or challenge his "discovery" ? However, if he has indeed unlocked the energy creation of the universe we understand how fiercely that would be resisted as we know that governments etc are not here to serve the people, we are here to serve their agenda etc. So, fascinating stuff, if only at the moment to open up a debate or discussion on what it is we "believe" and why we are put into the mode of accepting belief systems that then become dogma rather than making rational decisions against evidence based "fact".(and even there, a “leap of faith” is required..!)

I think one of the great uses of this thread is for people to challenge certain dogmas that we accepted (after a time, usually without question) whilst in the Emin. So for example, the origins of human life. Model 1 - Model 2 to Model 3 (head development). I think the Emin teachings alluded to the idea of "interventionist" theories re possible origins (and am making an educated guess, the source of that was from Gurdjieff ) but that's as far as it (or I)went. I came across a chap called Lloyd Pye who goes into some detail on the interventionist theory and a bit like David Icke he is not afraid to tell you what his research has revealed, as it is, rather than shrouding it in double-speak quasi mystical babble.

Essentially, the Emin planted that seed in us that caused an attraction to the self-taught maverick who dares to challenge the establishment. In many respects I would describe the Emin as a spiritual supermarket - so many goodies offered and all in one place - the only thing you have to decide is what "is right for you" i.e. those bits you can understand (according to your "development") but one day you'll be ready for those bits you don't quite get as long as you continue to attend meetings etc And further to that analogy, the more cash you have at your disposal, the greater the likelihood you will be introduced to the "exclusive" goods on offer.

So David Icke talks about people "waking up" and clearly the act of waking up does not equate to enlightenment..! However, some interesting if not mind blowing issues are posed, none more so than actually examining the control systems of the various religious dogmas that people follow - either through acceptance of Buddhism, Christianity etc- or those offered in the spiritual supermarkets. The question is, what are the actual energies people are connecting to and in so doing "powering" thereby perpetuating the control?

As the human is heavily prone to mind control and brain washing in its many forms- a certain vigilance is required. This forum is is an opportunity to exchange and share information however uncomfortable that may be.

For many of us, we have taken that deep breath and stepped back (quite some time ago) and this may now be the time to exhale and take that step forward without fear of personal vilification, reprisals or attacks.

LR63 (my new name)

22-09-2012, 03:13 PM
was an American and few will have heard of him but will know the 250 year old saying of his - old habits die hard'. Tor, your posts speak volumes so do JennM's. Criticism is not enough in itself. You may not like what I write but I write about knowledge I have discovered. What you both write shows that you despise any knowledge I post, seem to have learned little and are stuck with old habits.

LR63 I like your post and think you are absolutely right about being able to move forward unencumbered. After a shock like the Emin experience many do not want to head off in such a direction ever again.

I will mention again our 'ka'. This is the one, not at the end of our life as such, but at the end of our best possible life. Where we could get to if we did things right. Obviously very few of us are in our best possible life, especially the one available to us when we were born. There is also sopmething waiting at the end of our worst possible life and all shades in between. What is best is an individual assessment of where you want to end up. If you decide at an early age that it will be the best ever violinist then that is it, and some or one will make it. Sports stardom is increasingly such a target. But they can all be disappointments. We therefore learn gradually in life what it is that we want most and in the case of the sage it is to be of service to humanity and its creator.

If you can speak with your 'ka' and avoid the traps laid for you by the ones at the end of alternative lives, you may find the guidance you need to open the right doors. Whether I am doing this or not you will not be able to determine but if you build a relationship with your own spirit you may be able to find out.

Some have come here and shown exactly what they are made of. Some build on very shaky foundations, others do not and show how discriminating they are about what they will 'believe'. There is a good thread on the Forum on Keshe incidentally started months ago. This forum watches everything that moves in our world and reports on the interestinmg developments with a commendable detachment. Keshe may be right. He may just be telling the scientific community what the Americans already knew secretly. But his presentation is also to bring about world peace and release the poor from much of the misery of having no fuel, food or medicine. That aim cannot be faulted if true. If only our governments and corporations were locked into that. But like the sportsman they aim for being the biggest, richest, most powerful rather than the most ethical. That is the programming and that is what is wrong. That is why JennM feels insulted by my writing that she is heartless on the outside (she writes here without any care for those abused by, or in, the Emin, and even denies their existence against serious evidence that they do exist). I wrote that I think she ande all ushers are very protective on the inside (guided to protect Leo and the Emin's reputations) and is programmed. It is the last bit she probably does not like and finds insulting. Fine - do not like it - but come out with something that does not suggest it so clearly.

It is true also of the 'way'. You may not like what it tells you about you but you cannot blame it, only yourself. Rich men did not like Jesus saying (if he ever did) that they cannot go to heaven. Killers and thieves do not like it either. Lazy people do not like to hear that the way requires a lot of hard work.

I remember meeting a very nice man once. He had a lovely attitude and way of dealing with people and we struck it off immediately. He had been a member of Hawkwind and had a fascinating life. I mentioned something to him about enlightenment and he immediately responded that Maharaji had given this to him some years before. Leo used to say if a master could give someone something they could take it away. I would not dismiss the man's statement. Clearly he had been inspired by Maharaji and identified this as enlightenment and almost certainly M had told him that this was. LR63 wisely differentiates between enlightenment and waking up. We all need to wake up but genuine enlightenment is being guided aright (by you own ka). It takes you to where there is real work to be done. But to do that you have to cease to exist as the person you are and give your life away to someone who can make better use of it. Some will do that for another master and doubless the master will use their life to his advantage. But the enlightened one finds his real self and gives himself up to the only thing he can truly trust.

If you give your life to your master you will fight to the death for that one, right or not, and we see that in many. they need to be released but that is easier said than done. That master has to be replaced and not by another. So first comes the wake up call - you are programmed/possessed. Then the search for your real self if it will have anything to do with you, and finally what is called the first death which is a very scary moment from which you can never recover. Even if you know about it you will falter before jumping off the cliff of your own self esteem.

'Know thyself' (Thoth c 4000BC)

reve x

22-09-2012, 03:38 PM
You may not like what I write but I write about knowledge I have discovered. What you both write shows that you despise any knowledge I post, seem to have learned little and are stuck with old habits.

Again, I notice you're still practising the 'lump people together to make it easier to dismiss them with one generalisation' method.

Also, as usual, Reve, you don't pay attention. I'm not opposed to knowledge; I'm just weary of what you call knowledge but which to me is just random info-dumping. What you never offer is actual wisdom gleaned from the information you pass on. All we get are your portentious pronouncements, that this or that is wrong, or right, just because you say so.

Here's an example from your last post:

I will mention again our 'ka'. This is the one, not at the end of our life as such, but at the end of our best possible life. Where we could get to if we did things right. Obviously very few of us are in our best possible life, especially the one available to us when we were born. There is also sopmething waiting at the end of our worst possible life and all shades in between. What is best is an individual assessment of where you want to end up. If you decide at an early age that it will be the best ever violinist then that is it, and some or one will make it. Sports stardom is increasingly such a target. But they can all be disappointments. We therefore learn gradually in life what it is that we want most and in the case of the sage it is to be of service to humanity and its creator.

Portentious statements without a shred of evidence, back-up, examples, reasoning - proof, in a nutshell. 'We therefore learn gradually in life what it is that we want most . . . ' what - all of us? How you love to speak for everyone, presumably to make your own journey feel more validated.

You want people to take your pronouncements seriously but that's rather hard to do when you display such petulant 'just because I say so' type responses whenever anyone asks you to explain yourself.

It's interesting you go on so much about the numbers of hits on this thread. Seems to support the suspicion that you're looking for followers. Which is kind of ironic, when you think about it.

As for this:

That is why JennM feels insulted by my writing that she is heartless on the outside (she writes here without any care for those abused by, or in, the Emin, and even denies their existence against serious evidence that they do exist). I wrote that I think she ande all ushers are very protective on the inside (guided to protect Leo and the Emin's reputations) and is programmed. It is the last bit she probably does not like and finds insulting. Fine - do not like it - but come out with something that does not suggest it so clearly.

What worm-like language. What a politician you are. You tell me I'm heartless and now 'explain' it by implying I don't care about abused children. What I've always said, Reve, as you well know, is that this is not the place for you to try to sort out such issues. And yes, surprisingly enough I do feel insulted to be told I'm 'programmed'. Especially by a man who doesn't know me. And as for your contention that my challenges to you demonstrate such programming, why don't you say how exactly.

Even if you know about it you will falter before jumping off the cliff of your own self esteem.

More portentious twaddle. At least Carlos Casteneda came out with some great quotes and the odd joke.

22-09-2012, 04:03 PM
Was his name Axel and was he the keyboard player ? if so, he happily lives here in Luxor, mind you Hawkwind was like BayCityRollers, many members.
So, we are talking about the development of Reve here ? the opening of 'the old third eye eh ?
Now, what with you carrying so much luggage, on your short little trip through this physical world, do You really think! in your 'heart of hearts think that anything on wikipedia is going to enlighten you.
You know and we all know it, "It's not to late Reve. 'alter your stride and meet a stranger Leo. whenever!

So for your 1st edification and illumination I post below: listen accept and act,
I will be asking questions later....Tor = 'doing planetary things in repetition with a god like intent'
No Charge! it's free, donations not required.....savvy?
and not a f****rapper in sight..

22-09-2012, 04:06 PM
Well, I think fundamentally that's what this is all about - opening your mind and recognising the filters you have that exclude that which you does not fit your personal dogma. That includes getting caught up in the roller coaster ride where conspiracy theories are accepted without challenge.

Conspiracy facts are however a different matter and this forum is for me, ultimately a place to reposition those foundations of knowledge on firmer ground that will have a direct bearing on behaviour on this planet- how you interact with others - find your Ka as Reve says - maintain or actually discover your individuality against the lazy temptation to become a "repeater" that gives you the illusion of original thought etc but in reality you are living a life (lie) through proxy.

I do appreciate the Keshe post..am not dismissing it out of hand as might have been the case many years ago as it did not fit the dogma that unless something is endorsed by the Emin then it is not worth bothering with..! (That was an old habit that took some time to break)

Interesting you mentioned Hawkwind as I was listening to them whilst writing my post. Still one of my favoured bands when it comes to sci-fi rock music as they were one of the early exponents (if not the creators of that genre) that broke the mould of accepted song writing subject matter. Ok...the music was very much drug induced, but then how much music of importance from the 60's and 70's wasn't...? (rhetorical question)


22-09-2012, 04:09 PM
Essentially, the Emin planted that seed in us that caused an attraction to the self-taught maverick who dares to challenge the establishment. In many respects I would describe the Emin as a spiritual supermarket - so many goodies offered and all in one place - the only thing you have to decide is what "is right for you" i.e. those bits you can understand (according to your "development") but one day you'll be ready for those bits you don't quite get as long as you continue to attend meetings etc And further to that analogy, the more cash you have at your disposal, the greater the likelihood you will be introduced to the "exclusive" goods on offer.

I think you're catching Reve's habit, LR63, of 'us'ing your own experience. Of course some people used the Emin like a spiritual supermarket; but there were others who maybe came for the market but stayed for the personal evolvement. And not all decided against what "is right for [you]"; some worked more towards "someone who's serious about the truth". I also don't agree with that last statement, at least not where the Emin's concerned. Yes, Leo charged for his work, but I don't recall 'exclusive' goods being offered to those with more cash at their disposal.

22-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Well was that easy or was that easy ?
Now, this is really the difficult bit, it probably means you have to drag yourself self-indulgent complex away from your computer screen.....
[top tip: they rot your brain anyway]
This second gate is not easy to open....
So, 'take a deep breath and plunge right on in. PS; it's still 'no-charge...T
PSS: you couldn't put a price on what I learnt from Leo, except by reve of course. ££££££££

22-09-2012, 05:11 PM
I said:

And as for your contention that my challenges to you demonstrate such programming, why don't you say how exactly.

You said:

reve: I only know you from what you post here which leads to that conclusion. I have to say you are very consistent so that helps form my opinion but that is all it is. Prove me wrong i would be so happy. Programming is suggested by your unwillingness to read what you consider to be info-dumping yet wish to criticise and you unflinching support forTor and unwillingness to criticise Tor with his abusive language and threats, even though he behaves in a way that is disgraceful. He also probably had an alias here YouRot21 who is a pure racist. He may have many more as 'old habits die hard'. It is not worm-like language at all just honesty. This is a perfect place to keep mentioning to the Emin's conscience two cases of abuse I know about that have been deliberately ignored and resulted in great distress. I am not suggesting a class action suit by ex-members for being misled by the Emin relating to Leo's head and where the information he sold us came from. For the distress we all went through for no reason. The pain and loss when we left and were shunned. The families we were in and became distanced from causing them even greater distress in so many cases. The constant bullying. The financial irregularities we were told about. The psychological abuse. etc etc etc. If I was after that then I would not post here i would find a lawyer in the US and others from the Emin who wanted compensation.

I don't think you understand the difference between proving your point by reasoned example and shoving in more portentious opinion to try drowing out the original objection. How is my unwillingness to read your info-dumping a sign of me being programmed? I would have thought it's just as easily a sign of my discernment. Then you make a connection which doesn't exist between that and what you call my 'unflinching support for Tor' which is just another of your unfounded obsessions. For the record, I find Tor unpretentious and straight-talking, and he seems to be free of the habit of saying 'you' or 'us' when he really means 'I'. Then of course we're back into your common rant about abuse - how on earth does that prove my programming?

If the volume watching this depresses you, or the few who write here, best think about why you are hurt by it. If no one read this I would not post here obviously, and I have posted every day to keep the thread alive, otherwise they just disappear for years at a time. It happened here.

Another example of your little trick of putting words into someone else's mouth they never spoke so you can then rubbish them. I don't recall saying I was hurt or depressed by the 'volume' of people watching this thread. I suggested that the reason you keep referring to it might be that you're looking for a following. Your low-life habit, again, of avoiding the point by claiming the questioner was asking it from a position of weakness or hurt.

22-09-2012, 06:14 PM
I think you're catching Reve's habit, LR63, of 'us'ing your own experience. Of course some people used the Emin like a spiritual supermarket; but there were others who maybe came for the market but stayed for the personal evolvement. And not all decided against what "is right for [you]"; some worked more towards "someone who's serious about the truth". I also don't agree with that last statement, at least not where the Emin's concerned. Yes, Leo charged for his work, but I don't recall 'exclusive' goods being offered to those with more cash at their disposal.

JennM - I think it's like this, the majority of people have experienced falling for someone and although there were signs that that person you have fallen for is not actually a particulalry pleasant person, the act of "falling" induces a chemical in the brain that effectively blocks off those mis-givings. So you shrug off those mis-givings and allow that person to mess you around until things get to the point (when the "chemistry" wears off) where you have no choice but to face the truth and do something about it.

I think this could be applied to the Emin and those early days of joining where people talk about having a "love affair" with it.

One thing I have not mentioned on here and that is that my relative who introduced me to the Emin was actually sectioned under the Mental Health Act during his involvement with the Emin. He could not separate out the teachings from his everyday life and as you can imagine, that would result in a massive emotional and psychological conflict. His sister also has Emin involvement but in a way that I can only describe as that "la la hippy dippy" land of the most annoying variety that has absolutely no depth whatsoever. Her involvement resulted in family estrangement - divorce and all that goes with that.

So whether someone reads this site for the latest Reve revelation, the latest bit of esoteric rapping or the occasional bit of conspiracy info, or even to catch the latest Reve - JennM - DrWho2 saga, it is of no concern to me.

However, what does concern me is that those people who are interested in the Emin but have only accessed the Emin PR will not have anywhere near the full picture to inform their decisions. At least here if they choose to visit this forum, amongst these many pages you have the history, mystery and real experiences (subjective) that includes the warts and all with no PR gloss or spin.

Finally, I am proud of the fact that I could tear myself away from this computer screen long enough to cook a lovely lasagne(veggie) that wifey and me will share whilst no doubt watching a conspiracy based movie.

Finally, finally, I don't really do "proud" as that to me is a vain, self-serving egotistical, self satisfying, narcissistic expression of one's self worth.

Finally, finally, finally - I had thought Emin "closure" had been reached, but clearly not. However, on this occasion...


22-09-2012, 06:29 PM
Thanks for such a considered a reply. I agree with a lot of what you say.

This has got me thinking:

Finally, finally, finally - I had thought Emin "closure" had been reached, but clearly not. However, on this occasion...

I'm not sure I totally understand the nature of 'closure'. I can see people need to tie up loose mental, emotional, financial, etc, ends of a part of their life before they move on. But I think the danger can be that sometimes this produces a kind of self-imposed false memory syndrome.

I've found that the more complex parts of life - and the Emin was complex, multi-layered, etc - can often take years to understand. Which means staying open to meanings which just couldn't be seen at the time, for being too close to the subject. But that is perhaps not as satisfying as closure. It's a fine balance, like everything: to not cling on pointlessly on the one hand and to not abuptly amputate on the other.

It seems an odd thing to suggest, staying open to one's own history, but I think it can be very fruitful. It's just not as clean-cut, perhaps, as closure. Or, maybe the art is to gain closure in the areas that are damaging to oneself if allowed to go unchecked; leave open the parts that still can learn; and - to paraphrase that old saying - have the wisdom to tell the difference.

23-09-2012, 08:48 AM
Well is seems to have taken till now for my little breakthrough. Last night I met Ethra in dreamworld twice and it seems a better place to meet quite honestly.

I will continue with discussion of the occult here and bring to 'closure' these ongoing disputes with others. We all have a right to write.

LR63 I am sorry to hear about the difficulties faced by your family. Many families have gone through this but perhaps in its new more innocuous format the Template will not cause such havoc.

Finally i think the news that the Catholic Church is facing up to its monumental abuse of children in Australia, having already admitted the many cases in US, speaks volumes. South America and Europe next perhaps. Anyway it puts the Emin in perspective, although may point to the same problems and lessons. Ignoring abuse is not the way. It has nothing to do with money but everything to do with responsibility.

reve x

23-09-2012, 11:15 AM
The way we see magic and the occult these days is not in itself ancient. I would compare it with the way that Orthodox Jews dress. This is not the same as the ancient Hebrew but the 18/19th century European Jew. So it is with magic dressed up in the clothes of certain 18th and 19th century magicians and they were a major influence on the 20th century ones like Crowley, who have grabbed the minds of so many would be witches.

Leo did not want us to read the men who influenced him and with good reason. But one name he liked to mention along with Agrippa was Eliphas Levi. This man was French and like many others trained to be a catholic priest. That should tell us something. Magic circles were said to need a defrocked priest for their rituals - Friar Tuck for example. In fact Levi never got ordained.

I use pastes from wiki because it saves laborious typing and they tend to be more correct that I would be. This quote from Levi says quite a lot about his thinking. However the definition of occult is merely ‘hidden’ and what is hidden now varies enormously from what was hidden in the time of the Egyptians and Greeks. But it is finding out what is hidden that is the work of the occult researcher. Today David Icke’s work looks into what is hidden from the human population and this is as occult as any magic.

“ wikipedia ‘Behind the veil of all the hieratic and mystical allegories of ancient doctrines, behind the darkness and strange ordeals of all initiations, under the seal of all sacred writings, in the ruins of Nineveh or Thebes, on the crumbling stones of old temples and on the blackened visage of the Assyrian or Egyptian sphinx, in the monstrous or marvelous paintings which interpret to the faithful of India the inspired pages of the Vedas, in the cryptic emblems of our old books on alchemy, in the ceremonies practised at reception by all secret societies, there are found indications of a doctrine which is everywhere the same and everywhere carefully concealed.(Introduction) Eliphas Levi 1861
Levi began to write in succession Historie de la Magie in 1860. The following year, in 1861, he published a sequel to Dogme et Ritual, La Clef des Grands Mystères ...Lévi's version of magic became a great success, especially after his death. That Spiritualism was popular on both sides of the Atlantic from the 1850s contributed to this success. His magical teachings were free from obvious fanaticisms, even if they remained rather murky; he had nothing to sell, and did not pretend to be the inititate of some ancient or fictitious secret society. He incorporated the Tarot cards into his magical system, and as a result the Tarot has been an important part of the paraphernalia of Western magicians. He had a deep impact on the magic of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and later on the ex-Golden Dawn member Aleister Crowley. He was also the first to declare that a pentagram or five-pointed star with one point down and two points up represents evil, while a pentagram with one point up and two points down represents good. It was largely through the occultists inspired by him that Lévi is remembered as one of the key founders of the 20th century revival of magic.” wikipedia

This is not to say that Eliphas was either a magician nor that he knew everything about magic. But his works laid the foundations for the modern magicians and in a sense undermines them. There are differences between practitioners and teachers anyway. Yip Man was the martial artist who taught Bruce Lee and who was taught as a boy for three years by the 70 year old great grandmaster. But Yip was not a great martial art practitioner himself. Indeed Bruce was little tested either as he did not enter tournaments. But both did much to advance the cause of the art as teachers do.

The real occult world is still hidden from the conscious mind and all the rituals and magic ever written will not alter that. They give tantalising glimpses perhaps. A Ouija board can do that, but they do not reveal what is hidden. When you embark on the voyage of discovery one thing you do not expect is that part of you knows everything that is hidden but will not let your conscious mind loose with this. That is why inner trust is all important and self discipline to achieve this. But it may be worthwhile looking a bit deeper into the unconscious to see what lies there.

Reve x

23-09-2012, 02:59 PM
Today I got an email from a magician and she sent the link to a Book of Magic written around 1580 which she is studying. You can have a look at this document yourselves and you will see a book of spells with illustrations first of a dragon but then of a range of occult symbols, angels, a man with a club holding a snake, Satan, Judas Iscariot etc. It is not known who wrote it although i could guess from the date and contents.

The thing to notice is the reference throughout to angels. This is where the spells derive their power and though the author calls them good angels he/she would not know. If you are invoking angels to make spells beware. There is a massive personal cost in doing this and although you may feel you are using them, they will be using you. This was the problem with the Emin work with elementals. Leo's claim to be in control of them and indeed of 'Egypt' is unlikely. They were supposed to accept control by a man but could not even be controlled by their creator in their anger at such a suggestion. Many men have tried as this seems to be the role of the 'Son of Man'. But they all died eventually, unsuccessful.

Anyway the book is worth a look to see how magic has developed over the last few hundred years. One can compare the spells with the Pyramid Texts, which were to enable the after life for Pharaoh but by 1580 they are to get women into a magician's bed. That is what the angels want most for some perverse reason. Sexual force is very precious to their survival and reason for being here.

take a look if interested:

http://luna.folger.edu/luna/servlet/view/search/what/Book%20of%20magic,%20with%20instructions%20for%20i nvoking%20spirits,%20etc.?q=V.b.26&sort=Call_Number,Author,CD_Title,Imprint

reve x

23-09-2012, 05:34 PM
gets a mention at last. Meanwhile the war drums beat louder and louder. Articles like these make no difference. The comments attached to them which I have not copied show how ignorant and ‘programmed’ people are. Many have a ‘never mind the cost blow the mullahs up now’ attitude. But one must look behind the appearances and try to find out the occult influences at work. They are angelic, control the media and the politicians, and have their own agenda. For them there has to be a war or they lose control. Here are two news snippets today for us to look behind.

“Ynetnews is the online English language Israeli news website of Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel’s most-read newspaper, and the Hebrew Israel news portal, Ynet. It is part of the Yedioth Media Group.
The Yedioth Group also owns stock in the Israeli TV Channel "Channel 2"; "HOT", the Cable TV company, weekly local newspapers, magazines, and other non-media companies - wikipedia”

Iran: Strike a chance to wipe Israel off map
Tehran's military officials continue to threaten Israel with annihilation should it strike nuclear facilities; warn that US involvement in conflict will trigger WW3
Dudi Cohen

P{margin:0;** UL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 16; padding-right:0;** OL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 32; padding-right:0;** H3.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;margin-top:0px;** P.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;**
"If the Zionists act against Iran it will be a historic opportunity for the Islamic Revolution to wipe them off the world's geographic history," Deputy Commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Brig.-Gen. Hossein Salami declared Sunday.
According to the Fars news agency, Salami stressed that Iran is "No longer concerned by the Zionist regime's threats" to strike the country's nuclear facilities.

"If war with Iran breaks out it will be the doing of an international coalition headed by America," he said.
Iran's Aerospace Force Commander Amir Ali Hajizadeh further warned that Tehran could launch a preemptive strike against Israel if it becomes convinced that Jerusalem was gearing to attack it.
Speaking with Iran's Al-Alam TV, Hajizadeh said: "Iran will not start any war but it could launch a preemptive attack if it was sure that the enemies are putting the final touches to attack it."

Hajizadeh said any attack on Iranian soil could trigger World War III: "We cannot imagine the Zionist regime starting a war without America's support. Therefore, in case of a war, we will get into a war with both of them and we will certainly get into a conflict with American bases."
"In that case, unpredictable and unmanageable things would happen and it could turn into a World War Three."
Earlier Sunday, a senior Iranian MP said that if Tehran will end up cutting ties with the IAEA, its chief, Yukiya Amano, will be the one to blame: "Amano's frequent visits to Tel Aviv prove that the information about the Iranian nuclear program is given to the Zionist regime (by him)."
Javad Jahangir-Zadeh, a member of Iran's parliamentary committee on national security and foreign policy, added that if the IAEA "continues in its ways," Tehran would be forced to sever all ties with it.

On Saturday, Revolutionary Guards Commander General Mohammad Ali Jafari said that a war between Israel and Iran was inevitable.
"Israel seeks war with us, but it's not clear when the war will occur," Jafari was quoted by the ISNA and Fars agencies as saying. "Right now they see war as the only method of confrontation," he said.
Iran also threatened to attack US bases in event of war: Hajizadeh warned Sunday that the Islamic Republic will target US bases in the Persian Gulf should a war with Israel break out.

Hajizadeh said that no Israeli attack can happen without the United States' involvement, making all US military bases a legitimate target.
He warned that Gulf states would be "dragged into war" because Iran will attack US bases in Bahrain, Qatar and Afghanistan”

“ Bloomberg News: In the U.S. presidential election, Barack Obama and Mitt Romney parry over who has the smartest strategy for ensuring Iran doesn’t obtain the enriched uranium to develop a nuclear weapon. Both candidates warn about the dangers of Iran becoming a nuclear power.
There is almost no discussion on the costs of a strike to take out that nuclear capacity -- be it by Israel or the U.S --in lives, money and regional and global standing.
This follows two unsatisfactory experiences over the past 10 years. In 2003, President George W. Bush said the invasion of Iraq was justified to remove Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction. “It would not be that hard,” Vice President Dick Cheney assured Americans.
It was hard and costly, and the weapons proved not to exist. More than 4,400 Americans were killed, and it cost more than $800 billion, while Iraq remains unstable and the region’s more lethal threat, Iran, is empowered

Four years ago, Obama declared that instead of Iraq, he would focus on the real problem: Afghanistan. More than 1,500 Americans have died since then at a cost of least of $400 billion. That country seems as corrupt and unstable as ever.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel says a pre-emptive strike against Iran is probably necessary and he resists any pressure from the U.S. government to hold off.
Obama doesn’t believe the need for military action is imminent. Romney, the Republican presidential candidate, basically would give the Israelis a blank check.
Ten days ago, a high-level group of national-security experts offered some answers to the questions about cost and consequences that the candidates are avoiding. Called the Iran Project, the report was signed by more than 30 experts, including prominent Republicans such as former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and ex-Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel. Also included were leading Democrats such as former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski and former House Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Lee Hamilton, as well as respected diplomats such as Frank Wisner and Thomas Pickering who served under Republican and Democratic administrations. The signatories also include retired military leaders, General Anthony Zinni and Admiral William Fallon, both former chiefs of the U.S. Central Command, which covers the Middle East. Zinni also was Bush’s envoy to the region.
The Iran Project authors say flatly that “extended military strikes by the U.S. alone or in concert with Israel could destroy or severely damage the six most important nuclear facilities in Iran.” An Israeli attack, they add, would delay the operation by two years, while more sophisticated U.S. capabilities would take it out for up to four years.
To prevent the Iranians from restarting, the report states the U.S. would need to conduct a “significantly expanded air and sea war over a prolonged period of time, likely several years.”
If the goal is regime change that would probably require the use of ground forces to occupy Iran. That would mean a commitment of resources and personnel “greater than what the U.S. has expended over the last 10 years in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined.”
Proxy Retaliation
Whatever course is chosen, the experts conclude that an attack on Iran would ensure retaliation. They anticipate efforts to close the Strait of Hormuz for days or weeks, with global economic implications, and asymmetrical attacks using surrogates such as Hezbollah on U.S. facilities in the region and beyond. Conceivably, it could set off a regional war.
The reaction on the Arab street, they suggest, would be very negative for U.S. interests, and for countries in the region such as Egypt. Moreover, they worry that a strike would strengthen, not weaken, the Iranian leaders’ somewhat tenuous hold on their country.
Unlike in the U.S., there’s a very open debate about all this in Israel, where a number of intelligence and military officials have publicly opposed Netanyahu’s eagerness to strike. The most compelling opponent is Meir Dagan, who was the head of intelligence and special operations for Mossad for more than eight years.
In long interviews with the CBS television program “60 Minutes” and the New Yorker magazine, he enumerated the perils of Netanyahu’s course. He says an Israeli strike would bolster the Iranian regime, which he argues is failing in its push to lead the Muslim world. In the interview with the New Yorker, he said that while Iran resumed its nuclear project about seven years ago, “the economic and diplomatic and covert pressure, led by America, obviates the need for any attacks now.”
Still, the Iran Project authors acknowledge that for the U.S. there are risks to any course of action. “The failure to attack and the decision to attack both could have some negative reputational consequences. The challenge then would be to determine which of those consequences are most probable, important and lasting.”
Romney and Obama owe it to the American people to address that question over the next six weeks.
(Albert R. Hunt is Washington editor at Bloomberg News. The opinions expressed are his own.) “
Reve x

23-09-2012, 06:33 PM
is one of the most traumatic experiences in our life, especially for his daughter. My father could be yours - A Scotsman at heart named John, once a talented sportsman, deeply religious, much loved by many, fine looking with jet black hair then one year snowy white, at one with nature and the great tree in our garden which will always bear the scar of his falling whether a mere 4 months have elapsed or 24 years, whether he was a mere 78 or a venerable 90.

A deep depression comes with such a loss and a wish that we had shared so much more, that he had known how important he was even when we were not there or when we disappointed him. And we change, we move from one generation to another without him. He is our departed Pharaoh and we pray for him that God will care for him. We burn a candle for him and we live as best we can for him now. We long for his seal of approval.

And thank God he knows and is still there for us. Good as he was to us and to others, and most of all to our dear distressed mothers, so he was able to rise above this world and survive his passing. And we can still ask him what we need to know because of all men this is the one we can trust.

RIP John

r x

23-09-2012, 07:49 PM
Reve's the prophet of doom and gloom....T
amazing eh? he possess' all three characters.....

24-09-2012, 08:55 AM
"Two pipes for two peoples: The politics of water in the West Bank

In a new series, Haaretz explores the inequitable distribution of drinking water in the West Bank, where supply for the Palestinian falls far short of that of their settler neighbors as well as the standard set out by the WHO.

By Amira Hass| 01:56 23.09.12 " Haaretz

The wonderful Israeli journalist and human being who lives among the Palestinians to report the truth.

Tor I do not open the links you post and have no idea what you are on about but I am sure it is very amusing. If anyone has followers here it would be you as the readership leaps when you post.

Today my thoughts are with Parvati


24-09-2012, 11:21 AM
Today is a very special day in time but it appears just like any other. A goddess is born but she appears like any other human child. Someone dies, someone is born. It ‘appears’ to be an endless cycle but when we study the occult truth we find it is not. This is the story of the great goddess, greater than any god. She appears as the serpent, as a human woman and as various goddesses and gods. She inspired great and small religions and most of the holy men and women of old. We call her Night in Egypt but in India she is Parvati. Either all the enlightened ones are mad, mistaken or they have had revealed to them the great truth. But they are consistent and this is the core of that revelation. This is its fairy tale form.

“After the death of Shiva's first love Sati, Shiva isolated himself into a dark cave buried amongst the snow covered peaks of the Himalayas. He rejected the world outside, so distraught was he by the lose of his first true love.
Meanwhile the demons lead by Taraka, rose from the netherworld and drove the devas, gods, out of the heavens. The gods sought a warrior who would help them regain the celestial realm.
"Only Shiva can father such a warrior," informed Brahma.
Yet Shiva, immersed in meditation, was oblivious to the problems of the gods. As he performed tapas, meditations that produce great heat and energy, his mind was filled with great knowledge and his body became resplendent with energy. But all this knowledge and energy, bottled within his being, was of no use to anyone.”http://www.lotussculpture.com/parvati1.htm

Reve: The world is the heart of the universe and has been overrun by the fallen ones. The gods debate how to rectify this but nothing can be done. Sita means ‘earth furrow’ - she is our world and she appears to be dead. Her husband is in deep morning and time no longer means anything to him. The good gods invoke him to no avail so they turn to the great mother in desperation.

“Birth of Parvati

The gods invoked the mother-goddess, who appeared before them as Kundalini, a coiled serpent. "I will coil myself around Shiva, wean out his knowledge and energy for the good of the world and make him father a child," said Shakti. Shakti took birth as Parvati, daughter of the Himavan, lord of the mountains, determined to draw Shiva out of his cave and make him her consort.

Everyday Parvati would visit Shiva's cave, sweep the floor, decorate it with flowers, and offer him fruits hoping to win his love. But Shiva never opened his eyes to look upon her charming face. Exasperated, the goddess invoked Priti and Rati, goddess of love and longing, to rouse Shiva out of his mediation. These goddesses entered Shiva's desolate cave and transformed it into a pleasure garden filled with the fragrance of flowers and the buzzing of bees.

Guided by Priti and Rati, Kama, the lord of desire, raised his sugarcane bow and shot arrows dripping with desire into the heart of Shiva.
Shiva was not amused. He opened his third eye and released the flames of fury that engulfed Kama and reduced his beautiful body to ashes.
The death of Kama alarmed the gods. "Without the lord of desire man will not embrace woman and life will cease to be."
" I shall find another way to conquer Shiva's heart. When Shiva becomes my consort, Kama will be reborn," said the daughter of the mountain, Parvati.

Parvati went into the forest and performed rigorous tapas, wearing nothing to protect her tender body form the harsh weather, eating nothing, not even a leaf, earning the admiration of forest ascetics who named her Aparna.
Aparna matched Shiva in her capacity to cut herself from the world and completely master her physical needs. The power of her tapas shook Shiva out of his mediation. He stepped out of his cave and accepted Parvati as his wife.
Shiva married Parvati in the presence of the gods following the sacred rites and took her to the highest peak of the cosmos, Mount Kailasa, the pivot of the universe. As the world revolved all around them the two became one and Kama was reborn.
"Parvati melted Shiva's stern heart with her affection."

Reve: The great goddess has taken human form aa a great ascetic and by doing this won the heart of this god who had overcome desire and worldly habits. By doing this she has rekindled desire in the grieving god who had ceased to care for the creation that had destroyed his beloved earth. That is the fairy tale. Next we should look at the theology underlying this. The Indian pantheon is difficult and complex but Parvati is at the level at which all the multiple gods and goddesses are contained. It is as though we look at the human, not individual humans. But here we are looking at the God/dess. Here is what she says to Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, who are in fact her creation.

“In the Devi Bhagavata Purana, the Goddess states in front of the trimurti that:

‘I am Adi Parashakti, goddess Bhuvaneshvari. I am the owner of this universe. I am the Absolute Reality. I am dynamic in feminine form and static in masculine form. You are three parts of me. You all are my partial expansions. You have appeared to govern the universe under my jurisdiction. You are the masculine form of Absolute Reality, while I am the feminine form of that Reality. I am beyond form, beyond everything, and all the powers of God are contained within me. You will admit that I am the Eternally Limitless Power. I shall now assign each of you a task. She then commanded: Brahma! You will be generator of the universe; the Goddess Sharada is your Shakti, my form by which I will be recognized as the goddess of wisdom and the primeval sound. Lord Brahma, this goddess will be with you when you create the universe.
She continued: Lord of Lords, Narayana! You are the Supreme, Immortal Spirit. You are formless, yet you take form. I assign you to be the preserver of the universe. You will take a different incarnation in order to save this universe's inhabitants. Oh Narayana! You are the Supreme of all the deities with form. You have created Lord Brahma, and Brahma will further create thirty-three-thousand other gods and goddesses. My Great Power, goddess Mahakali, has been born from your mystic sleep. You are the Paramatman. Your consort will be goddess Shri, who is none other than the incarnation of my light, as without light, one can neither see nor be seen. When life evolves, you will take the form of Vishnu, the one who will perform the task of observing and preserving this universe.
Oh Lord Rudra, the Great God, you are the personification of time, which is above all. You will perform the task of destroying and regenerating this universe. When you are formless, time stands still. It is due to my power that you become dynamic and are capable of bringing about the destruction and regineration of this universe. Your consort is goddess Mahakali, but due to meditation, you will be able to surpass all of my forms. It is then that I will incarnate from your left half in my manifested form. This form will be my truest manifested form. Lord Shiva, she will perform the task of destroying evil and will be your consort.’

Aum Shakti is used to describe the name of the goddess when she is without attributes.

Parvati, Sati(whose real name was Gauri), or Durga is the original manifested form of Mother Adi-Parashakti. She is Adi- Parashakti herself. The Devi Gita declares her to be the greatest Goddess who is beyond reach even to her consort Lord Shiva, her brother Lord Vishnu, and her greatest devotee Lord Brahma. Thus, She is considered the supreme Goddess and primary deity in Shaktism, occupying a place similar to Lord Krishna in Vaishnavism. Whatever deity one is worshiping, ultimately, they are worshiping her. She is every other goddess. She is Goddess Lakshmi and Goddess Saraswati in her mild form; Goddess Kali and Goddess Chandi in her wrathful form. Moreover, she is Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva in masculine forms. Her clothing is white, illustrating that she is the embodiment of purity.
Mahasaraswati is the first partial expansion of Goddess Adi Parshakti. She represents the Sattva Guna and is the shakti of Lord Brahma. She is the goddess of wisdom, creation, and learning. She is the source of all of the arts. It is she who slew Sumbha and Nisumbha, who are symbols of ignorance. She was created from the body of Mother Parvati and is the embodiment of her hard work, spirituality and devotion. She wears yellow clothes when she takes form. When she is without form, she becomes the Primordial Sound.” wikipedia

Reve: there are many temples to Parvati and Shiva but this one is special for them while being dedicated to Vishnu:

“ According to Hindu mythology, goddess Parvati was daughter of Himavat or Himavan - the personification of the Himalayas. She was the rebirth of Sati, the first wife of Shiva - who sacrificed her life when her father insulted Shiva. Parvati initially tried to allure Shiva by her beauty, but fails. Finally, she won Shiva by practising rigorous penance at Gauri Kund, which is 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) away from Triyuginarayan. Pilgrims visiting Triyuginaryan temple also visit the Gauri Kund temple, dedicated to Parvati. Mythology states that Shiva proposed to Parvati at Guptakashi (on the road to Kedarnath) before they got married in the small Triyuginarayan village at the confluence of Mandakini and Sone-Ganga rivers.

Triyuginarayan Temple (Sanskrit: त्रियुगी-नारायण) is a Hindu temple located in the Triyuginarayan village in Rudraprayag district, Uttarakhand. The ancient temple is dedicated to god Vishnu. Its fame is credited to the legend of god Shiva’s marriage to goddess Parvati witnessed by Vishnu at this venue and is thus a popular pilgrimage centre. A special feature of this temple is a perpetual fire, that burns in front of the temple. The flame is believed to burn from the times of the divine marriage. Thus, the temple is also known as Akhand Dhuni temple.
The temple courtyard is also the source of a water stream, which fills four sacred bathing ponds (kunds) nearby.

The word "Triyugi Narayan" is formed of three words "tri" means three, "yugi" denotes the period of time - Yuga and "Narayan" is another name of Vishnu. Pilgrims have been offering wood to the fire in the havana-kund (fireplace) since the three Yugas - hence the place is given the name “Triyugi Narayan”. Yuga in Hindu philosophy is the name of an epoch or era within a cycle of four ages. The four Yugas are Satya Yuga (1,728,000 human years), Treta Yuga (1,296,000 years), the Dvapara Yuga (864,000 years) and finally Kali Yuga (432,000 years), which is the present Yuga.
The name "Akhand Dhuni temple" also originates from the eternal flame legend, "Akhand" means perpetual and "Dhuni" means flame.” wikipedia

As you can see the story is considered primeval by the Indian sages, but still something that happened here. Parvati is from outside time, as are all the deities in the Ogdoad of Egypt. But here we can see the end of that story which we are in. At present the angels are battling each other and destroying the Earth. The solution was to awaken the primeval gods. It is something we can learn from, while watching these ‘local gods’ war with each other and threaten to use the great poison - nuclear weapons. Shiva is the only god who has been able to withstand this poison and hence needs awakening to save Parvati’s creation.

If one looks gently it is possible to see the occult story at work now in our world and thus understand the futility of those who desire the return of Horus and his third temple. That is the problem not the solution. In all likelihood India offers the only solution and this onspired the searchers who went there in flocks in the 60’s and 80’s to learn its wisdom.

Parvati is here with us doing what she can to save her creation but the arrogant and ignorant angels cannot see her.

Reve x

24-09-2012, 03:06 PM
Here you can see the strange and contemporaneous parallels between Egypt and India relating to temples being founded where the body parts of Osiris and Sati (Parvati) are buried:.

“The other Gods requested Vishnu to intervene to stop this destruction, towards which Vishnu used the Sudarshana Chakra, which cut through the corpse of Sati. The various parts of the body fell at several spots all through the Indian subcontinent and formed sites which are known as Shakti Peethas today.
At all the Shakti Peethas, the Goddess Shakti is accompanied by her consort, Lord Bhairava (a manifestation of Lord Shiva). Goddess Shakti is an aspect of the Supreme Being Goddess Adi parashakti, the mother of the trimurti, the holy trinity in Hindu mythology

The Shakti Peethas (Sanskrit: शक्ति पीठ, Bengali: শক্তিপীঠ, Śakti Pīṭha, seat of Shakti) are places of worship consecrated to the goddess Shakti or Sati, the female principal of Hinduism and the main deity of the Shakta sect. They are sprinkled throughout the Indian subcontinent

52 Shakti Peethas of Sati, proves that all Goddesses are expansions of the Goddess Parvati.” wikipedia

“By the end of the New Kingdom, a tradition had developed that Set had cut Osiris' body into pieces and scattered them across Egypt. Cult centers of Osiris all over the country claimed that the corpse, or particular pieces of it, were found near them. The dismembered parts could be said to number as many as forty-two, each piece being equated with one of the forty-two nomes, or provinces, in Egypt. Thus, the god of kingship becomes the embodiment of his kingdom.” wikipedia

So one has to wonder what this is all about. It is different to say the Cathedrals of Europe containing the relics of martyrs or pieces of the true cross. India and Egypt have the oldest civilizations and these sacred places must mean something.

I suspect that what are being spoken of as body parts are in fact parts of a comet, planet, or meteorites which have crashed in certain places. It reminds of Planet X and the ’as above so below’ religious connection which has a supposed meteorite as the sacred black stone of the Kaaba.

But also one can see it from another point of view. The earth is our mother and creator, but in addition to being a lump of rocky iron she is also seen as having a human incarnation. Ditto the sun god and the underworld god. They have their representatives here and it may well be that these ancient temples are sites where the incarnations are buried. Certainly the Egyptian myth of Osiris is very old and the kings were all said to be Osiris when they died. Even now there is a woman in India thought to be Shakti, if only one. Temples in Egypt were heaped high with the mummified bulls and ibises thought to represent gods.

However when one looks at the maps of these temples and sites it is possible they represent constellations, as it is now thought the Giza pyramids may be. If the Giza pyramids do represent the stars in Orion I am surprised they have not got their spades out to dig where the star Sirus would be in relation to them.

Reve x

24-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Because I am waiting to hear that the Israeli Emin stands against the abuse of the Palestinians in their midst, the aparteid regime and are actively protesting like the journalist Amira Hass. That the West condones tghis and the US pays many many billions to support it is disgraceful and undoes any charitable work they do for the poor in the world. Why will Israel only allow the Palestinians water for a few hours a month, but endless supplies to the illegal Jewish settlers living in their middle? This is what Amira Hass says:

" The PA has been planning to replace the pipe since 2008, with the financing of the United states Agency for International Development.

The pipe, built by Israel in 1972, loses 45-50 percent of the water flowing in it due to deterioration, illegal connections, bad construction and faulty installation, the American construction company MWH wrote in its project description.

Much of the water flowing in the pipe, which passes under residential and farming areas, is stolen, especially for farming. The water quality is unsafe, the company wrote.

The Palestinian water authority and MWH planned a new route alongside the road, to prevent hooking up to the pipe illegally. A new, wider pipe would reduce leaks and ensure the water's quality, they said. Mekorot agreed to increase the water amount to the Hebron district by 5,000 cubic meters a day.

The project was approved by the joint Israeli-Palestinian water committee in August 2010, as required by the Oslo agreement.

The Civil Administration had to approve the route, located in Area C. Finally it was agreed to lay nine kilometers of the pipe alongside an existing farm route, leaving 1.9 kilometers of pipe along Route 60. "This is necessary to avoid destroying two houses and fatally damaging vineyards," an engineer said.

But the Civil Administration refused "because the construction would disrupt the Jewish drivers' traffic," the Palestinian engineer said.

"When they do maintenance work on other roads in the West Bank, don't they disrupt the traffic?" he asked.

Like all Hebron neighborhoods, Jabar, located in Area H2 (in Israeli jurisdiction ) has water only once every few weeks. Some of the residents' front doors and windows have been sealed and the alleys in the neighborhood are blocked. Only Israeli vehicles to and from the Jewish homes in ancient Hebron and the Cave of the Patriarchs are allowed to travel there. Water tankers to the Palestinian houses are not allowed and the residents use water holes.

On August 26, an Israeli bulldozer accompanied by soldiers began digging among the houses in the neighborhood. After several protests, the residents were told by a Civil Administration official that the water pipe serving the settlers, whose water is not rationed, is being replaced by an elevated one.

The Palestinians fear the construction in the narrow streets will damage the ancient houses, dating back to the Mamluk era. In some places, parts of the new pipe have been attached to the Palestinian houses.

The Coordinator of Activities in the Territories said "the decision to replace the underground pipe with an elevated one is pending a High Court of Justice ruling. Replacing the pipe, which serves the Jewish settlement in Hebron, stems from water theft by the Palestinians. It is planned to be mostly elevated, but in every place it passes past houses' openings, it will be buried underground."

As for the water pipe near Route 60, "the Civil Adminisration approved most of the route but in one section it would harm the traffic. It cannot be built on the road shoulders because there are houses adjacent to the road. Alternative plans have not been received yet."

I do not believe that Tor speaks for the Emin nor the Israeli Emin but as he (as one of his variious personalities this one YouRot21 on the Forum )wrote about the Palestinians as though they are an inferior race that should be deported, ansd as he claims that he was asked by Leo to manage the Emin team for his visit to Israel I expect them to put the record straight.

Siomilarly I await some contact from the Emin managers with regard to the child abuse and student rape I mentioned here.

If the Emin does not like me mentioning this here then they can tell me where to raise these dreadful matters

reve x

24-09-2012, 07:56 PM
Here is what I consider institutional child abuse:

“More than 30 former Israeli soldiers have disclosed their experiences of the treatment of Palestinian children during military operations and arrests, pointing to a pattern of abuse.
A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children had been suspected of stone-throwing.
The witness statements were gathered to show the "common reality" of acts of violence by soldiers towards Palestinians, including children, in the West Bank, said Yehuda Shaul of Breaking the Silence. "Sadly enough this is the moral consequence of prolonged occupation of the Palestinian people," he said.
One former soldier describes serving in Hebron in 2010: "You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you're on an arrest mission, and there's no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …"
Children frequently soiled themselves, according to the testimonies. "I remember hearing him shitting his pants … I also remember some other time when someone pissed in his pants. I just became so indifferent to it, I couldn't care less. I heard him do it, I witnessed his embarrassment. I also smelled it. But I didn't care," said another.
Another soldier describes an incident in Qalqiliya in 2007 in which a boy was arrested for throwing stones. "At the end of the day, something has to make these kids stop throwing stones on the road because they can kill," he said.
"That specific kid who actually lay there on the ground, begging for his life, was actually nine years oldI mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn't entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result."
Some of the statements illustrate the disjunction between the Israeli military and Palestinians. One soldier said: "You put up a checkpoint out of boredom, sit there for a few hours and then continue on. Once I saw kids passing, and one of the guys, a reservist who spoke Arabic, wanted to ask them what they study. He didn't mean it in any bad way. Then I saw how the kid nearly peed his pants as the guy tried to kid with him, how the two worlds are simply disconnected. The guy was kidding and the kid was scared to death."
Most of the soldiers have given testimonies anonymously. One, who spoke to the Guardian, said he had been given no guidance during his training for military service on how to deal with minors. He said children were sometimes arrested and interrogated, not because they were suspected of an offence, but to try to elicit information about older family members or neighbours.
He had given a witness statement to Breaking the Silence because "I thought that people who don't see this on an everyday basis should know what's going on." He said many Israelis were unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the military occupation in the West Bank. "It's very easy [for the Israeli public] to be completely detached. It's a hard thing to handle – stuff like that being done in your name."
According to Gerard Horton of Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCI) the testimonies confirm a pattern of behaviour uncovered by his organisation's research into the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli security forces.
DCI and other human rights organisations say Palestinian children are routinely arrested at night, handcuffed, blindfolded, mistreated and denied access to their parents or a lawyer.
"For years credible reports of human rights abuses against children living under Israeli military occupation have emerged," he said. "These latest testimonies from young soldiers given the task of enforcing the occupation provide further evidence of its deeply corrosive effects on all. The testimonies lay bare the day-to-day reality of the occupation. These are not isolated incidents or a question of 'a few bad apples'. This is the natural and foreseeable consequence of government policy."
A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces said that Breaking the Silence had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies ahead of publication so they could be verified and investigated.
He said its true intention was "to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers. The IDF has in the past, and continues to, call upon the organisation to immediately convey complaints or suspicions of improper conduct to the relevant authorities. In line with the IDF's ethical commitments, any such incidents will be thoroughly investigated."

This regime dehumanises its troops and the Palestinian children. The day the children stop protesting is the day that they will have been destroyed. Notice how this contrasts with the Israeli Jewish children beating up Palestinian youths and trying to lynch them in Zion Square. If you run an Emin in the middle of such a country what on earth are you doing about this? Evil cannot be disguised as good, humane or merciful and must be confronted. Turning a blind eye is evil too.

Some more from Amira Hass on the water:

“ The annual water amount provided to the district is about 20 million cubic meters - some 90 liters per capita per day. A considerable part of the water is lost on the way due to leaks and faulty connections.
The district needs an additional 13 million cubic meters a year for domestic use, apart from farming. From May to October the water to the Palestinians in the area is severely rationed. Some neighborhoods have water for a few hours once a week, others twice a month or less.
Banal functions such as house cleaning and laundry all depend on the water supply. Every day some 400 tankers transfer water from central depots to hospitals, factories, schools and other public facilities in the region.
About half the water amount to the Hebron district comes from springs and wells. The PA buys the other half from the Israeli water company Mekorot. Some 10,000 cubic meters a day - more than a third of the amount bought from Mekorot - are funneled from the Dir Sha'ar (Etzion junction ) pumping depot in an 11 kilometer pipe.
About half the water is lost on the way, Mekorot's monthly invoices show. The Palestinians pay the amount registered at the depot, minus the water the pipe provides the Carmei Zur settlement (about 100 cubic meters a day ). The water meters in the Palestinian neighborhoods show that the amount actually supplied to the Palestinians is much smaller.

(reve: in other words the Palestinians have to pay for the 50% of the water that is lost due to faulty pipes)


“ As a reaction to the ‘open bridges’ policy instituted by the Israeli government in 1967 in relation to the Occupied Territories, a hard-lined religious orthodox movement that would later become officially known as Gush Emunim emerged. They demanded their immediate annexation and emphasized Jewish settlement of Eretz Yisrael; the whole land of Israel according to a maximalist interpretation of the Biblical text, Genesis 15:18: “God made a covenant with Abraham and said “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.” Their focus was the establishment of Jewish settlements in the territories beyond the 1948 ceasefire lines.

To Gush Emunim and other radical religious groups like the Chabbad which make up the core of the violent settler population, particularly in the area of Hebron “the advent of the Jewish state was considered the beginning of a divinely inspired and ordained redemptive process. This process depends among other things on the territorial integrity of the whole land of Israel (including the Occupied Territories). Failure to settle the land or withdrawal from presently occupied territories constitutes man’s direct contravention of God’s Will and would cause the interruption or cessation of the redemptive process.”1

Their ideology is based on a distinctive literalist interpretation of the Halacha and the Talmud as espoused by Rabbis such as Manis Friedman. Of the Palestinians he wrote; “The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)" He argued that if Israel followed this wisdom, there would be "no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false sense of righteousness, in fact, no war." He went on to write "I don't believe in Western morality," "Living by Torah values will make us a light unto the nations who suffer defeat because of a disastrous morality of human invention."2

Rabbi Ariel Israel taught: “A Jew who killed a non-Jew is exempt from human judgment and has not violated the [religious] prohibition of murder.”3

Gush spokes persons have “routinely compared Palestinians to the ancient Canaanites, whose extermination or expulsion by the ancient Israelites was, according to the bible, predestined by divine design”4

Settlers enjoy the unwavering support of influential factions within the government whether through explicit statements or tacitly. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman himself lives in Nokdim, a settlement south-east of Bethlehem in the occupied West Bank. [Guardian, Monday 16 March 2009]

In other words religious claptrap and a lie. Abraham was not a Jew nor were most of his descendants but the Rabbis pretend that his God ordained this. The Israel Emin should be countering this actively with education and truth. Are they? I cannot think any of them have anything more important to discuss and deal with.

Reve x

24-09-2012, 08:35 PM
If the Emin does not like me mentioning this here then they can tell me where to raise these dreadful matters

Er . . . the police?

24-09-2012, 08:40 PM
Er . . . the police?

I agree with jenm,

If what you are saying is true and you have evidence, then you should report it to the police.

24-09-2012, 09:53 PM
Sand warrior at the time of the rape of the student who was a friend of mine (it was 1976) she did not wish to go to the police. That was her decision but i did suggest that. I complained on her behalf to the Emin and she also made complaint about the usher. Bearing in mind the circumstances and the fact that the alleged rapist has died I cannot see that i have any right to go to the police but as the Emin know about this case and did not deal with it very well i think it is in order for them to contact the victim and offer some support. It is on Leo's conscience.

I do not know the name of the child or the parents in the case of the child abuse. I know the Emin names and I also know that the mother had asked the Emin to intervene. I was asked to witness the intervention interview. I have worked with child abuse and am aware of the importance of reporting such matters to Social Services to ensure protection of the child. As the Emin threatened the step father i do not feel that they supported the child (who will be an adult now) but as they will know who these people are i would like them to offer her some support to the girl now. That was in 1982/3 but what concerned me was that from what i was told at the time this was not an isolated case. This is a forum for ex-members and I personally believe that this is exactly the sort of home truth that should be aired. If others have similar experiences or knowledge they can choose how to deal with it themselves. But these matters are historical.

If I report anything to the Police it will be the threats made to me by Tor here. He has consistently threatened me with violence, visits to my home, and occult attack. His prison record does not inspire any confidence in me that he is bluffing. The Emin has not asked him not to do this and he has the support of JennM and Rainbow. The probablility in my mind that he and YouRot21 are the same person is due to many facts. He has mentioned here the use of 17 names in his life. Dr Who appeared a week after YouRot 21 was banned. Both used very similar language and Tor has used the name Rot several times here. I have made a suggestion that they may be the same. Tor has used aggressive and abusive language against me consistently because he does not like what I post here. But we do allow people to express opinions in this country if they are legal. i do not believe his threats are and now he is saying he will come round to attack me in my home I feel that he has overstepped the mark of any civilised behaviour. Poor Leo and Ethra must be horrified. But with people like that in the Emin can anyone doubt that there was bullying and abuse?

i do not know what others here think about this and would not want them in the firing line but i do not warrant any such physical or occult threats and consider that the man is disturbed. Moderators can decide. However he has written here that the moderators agree with his opinion of me.

Tor wants me closed down. The bullies of this world always want any protests subdued. I do not wish to invite further violence or ill health but some people have to stand up to them. It is because so few will stand up to Israel's settlers that we are on the verge of World War 3. What i wish is that his Emin friends would contact him and ask him to be reasonable. My worry is that some have got him up to this.

Please do not close down this thread because of such an ignorant person as i am sure that is what he wants most from this outrageous behaviour. But it is saying something very important about the Emin.

reve x

25-09-2012, 09:37 AM
the pen was mightier than the sword. If only men and women had not been tortured and killed for speaking unpalatable truths. If only men could tame the beast within. If only Tor would learn from Leo and not insult his memory by abusing his trust. If only his friends would help him and not incite him. One thing we did learn from Leo was that we did not smack each other in the mouth when enraged.

This poem is often considered the nation's favourite and was certainly a favourite of Leo. Kipling was not a perfect man, who is. But he was a great writer and his book 'Kim' was the favourite book of Nehru which speaks volumes.


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

By the way Tor I have known and loved many Israelis and Jews, and lived and worked with many ethnicities, probably many more than you. My father devoted much of his life to very poor Africans and was hated by the apartheid regime then for refusing to have separate services and indeed separate seating for blacks and whites in his church. It cost him greatly and he was threatened. Tottenham has more languages spoken that almost anywhere in the world - over 90. Much of it is a ghetto and impoverished. These are the people I love and I will speak out against any who deny them their human rights. Many Israelis hate the apartheid regime they have but are terrorised by it too when they protest. Amira Hass is a good example. Without real justice our world is unjustifiable and without the right to protest about abuse it will never change. You have some hard thinking to do if you will not stop being a big bully. You have upset many people here and should apologise to Ethra asap. Do you really think the truth is what you want it to be and not what it is?

Withdraw your threats against me now and calm down. You aspire to be better than that and you know it.


25-09-2012, 10:03 AM
Tor as you will be in this wonderful city soon why not meet me for a drink and perhaps a walk round St Mungo's Cathedral or the Botannical Gardens? I do not hold grudges and have written here before that I am sure we can be friends. Indeed if Westerns are any guide many good friendships have grown from animosity. You can text me when you arrive and if you really feel that you need to take a swing at me, can do so after you have met me properly. It has been a long time but perhaps we might even smoke a pipe of peace and bury a hatchet.

love, honour and respect


25-09-2012, 10:24 AM
After only 4 days of googling Emin and two posts on this thread you posted this to me:

23-03-2012, 03:21 AM

Calling Leo
Tor I remembered to mention you and who you were by your description to Leo last night and was a lttle surprised that he already knew and that he now likens this thread to the square complete with elemental and a place to thrash things out. I therefore negotiated with him a limited opportunity for those with establishments with him and current Template members. You can summon him if you meet these requirements and he will answer your questions if he deems they are fit. You will either have to use your imaginations, which is quite safe but try not to put words into his mouth and be respectful, or if unable to do that you can use your old Tarot cards. Like most Emin transformations this will not last long but is a chance for all of you to benefit from the man making himself accessible to you for a while.

Good luck. It would be nice if some of you report back or if worried about this let us know. You may find him a bit grumpy but do not be deterred that is Leo.

love honour and respect highly doubtful!

reve x

You were in the Emin for a very limited period before being asked to leave, albeit your strenuous denials, you say you love Leo but continually disparage anything positive stated in many and various ways to the point of saying Lady Ethra is bound to a chair in a cellar.
Why do I despise you ? because you hide behind your so-called 'holier than thou attitude, why were you asked to leave the Emin ? because you felt that you knew better and should have been given a position of authority, and it was obvious even then you were a sociopath and would become dangerous besides already being unstable.

Talking to Leo ? You'll be talking to faeries next, You need to talk to your wife, you obviously think very little of her and her advice, even to the point of not taking your daily tablets.
Anyhow, happy to say it's only 34 days before I'm 'sunning my self in Shortlands and we can continue this discussion on a more personnel basis..Tor

25-09-2012, 11:01 AM
Tor I know my posts read holier than thou, most people's do. That is one reason why i sub contract to copy & pastes. But I do say often here that i am not perfect and recall Leo saying that and Ruth saying it about Leo. To study the man it is important to know more about him and to identify what was imperfect lest that be what we grow. I write good and bad about everyone. what i think very imprtant is the fact that we can debate vigorously all matters. It was not always possible.

I have touched on this subject before but for obvious reasons it is the occult within the occult. Sex magic is used by both good and bad occultists. Aleister Crowley was deeply involved as are many lamas and even saddhus. It is obvious what the power of sex is in our world. Some religions do not like this and make celibate clergy, but for all their efforts it is clear that their clergy are anything but celibate. It is forbidden or encouraged in many sects. Kaballah forbid masturbation for example and as I wrote here before Leo was not exactly keen on it. I am pasting some extracts on this from various different sites and we can look at it all later in more detail. But before starting realise that the essence of this magic has nothing to do with being prudish or not. It has a chequered history which includes ‘sacred prostitution’ and ‘child abuse’. Men will always corrupt religion to suit themselves, but without procreation there is no creation and this life force needs to be both tamed and used responsibly. Please do not be offended - just take it or leave it. I am not judging it but wish to identify what is running through it.

“For me, the process goes something like this…I run a bath, fill the tub with hot water, bubbles and a few drops of organic essential oils, then light a candle, turn out the lights, strip down, sink into the water and simply bask in the beauty of the water, sensual aroma and candlelight. I then begin breathing deeply while focusing on my sexual energy. I imagine drawing my energy in through my yoni and up through all of my chakras until it reaches the crown of my head.
I imagine my energy flowing gently through the air and circling back down through my yoni. I continue to visualize and feel this “loop” of sexual energy flowing through every cell in my body. I then begin exploring my body, truly feeling my body and energy….as my arousal deepens, I continue breathing deeply, feeling the intense power of my sexual energy as it begins to increase in intensity.
Then I focus my sexual or life force energy towards my desired outcome. For instance, if I am trying to make an important decision, I focus on the question. If I focus long enough, an answer will come to me. The more I manifest through orgasmic meditation, the more skilled I become and the faster my answer comes to me (seriously, no pun intended). I have an extremely visual mind, so I see my answer rather than hear it, but everyone is unique and there is no right or wrong way to manifest or gain clarity.
When I feel focused, I imagine my energy flowing from my yoni towards my desired ….”

“in my personal rituals I have integrated masturbation as a very important but not absolutely necessary aspect of the raising of energy and conversation with my goddess. it seems to me that this has made it more easy for me to consider and discuss sexuality as an element or the entirety of spiritual disciplines, has separated me in many ways from the conservative who are loathe to accept such revealing and personal behaviors in rites of a 'spiritual' nature, and has kept me in touch with a feral and lascivious part of myself that I benefit from nurturing, especially as I tend toward the intellectual and reserved in my daily life. in general I would class masturbation as a psychospiritual activity on par with sitting meditation as regards the depth of its integrative and beneficial effects. good sex with a dedicated partner is possibly more transformative (since my mind has a…..”

“Sex magic is a term for various types of sexual activity used in magical, ritualistic, or otherwise religious and spiritual pursuits. One practice of sex magic is using the energy of sexual arousal or orgasm with visualization of a desired result. A premise of sex magic is the concept that sexual energy is a potent force that can be harnessed to transcend one's normally perceived reality “ wikipedia

“Taoist sexual practices (Simplified Chinese: 房中术, Traditional Chinese: 房中術, pinyin: fángzhōngshù), literally "the bedroom arts", are the way some Taoists practiced sex. These practices were also known as "Joining Energy" or "The Joining of the Essences". Practitioners believed that by performing these sexual arts, one could stay in good health, and attain longevity “wikipedia

“Tantra, as a development of early Hindu-Vedic thought, embraced the Hindu gods and goddesses, especially Shiva and Shakti, along with the Advaita philosophy that each represents an aspect of the ultimate Para Shiva, or Brahman. These deities may be worshipped externally with flowers, incense, and other offerings, such as singing and dancing. But, more importantly, these deities are engaged as attributes of Ishta Devata meditations, the practitioners either visualizing themselves as the deity, or experiencing the darshan (the vision) of the deity. These Tantric practices form the foundation of the ritual temple dance of the devadasis, and are preserved in the Melattur style of Bharatanatyam by Guru Mangudi Dora raja ….Sexual rites of Vamamarga may have emerged from early Hindu Tantra as a practical means of catalyzing biochemical transformations in the body to facilitate heightened states of awareness. These constitute a vital offering to Tantric deities. Sexual rites may have also evolved from clan initiation ceremonies involving transactions of sexual fluids.”

“Amon-Re "who hears the prayer, who comes at the cry of the poor and distressed...Beware of him! Repeat him to son and daughter, to great and small; relate him to generations of generations who have not yet come into being; relate him to fishes in the deep, to birds in heaven; repeat him to him who does not know him and to him who knows him...Though it may be that the servant is normal in doing wrong, yet the Lord is normal in being merciful. The Lord of Thebes does not spend an entire day angry. As for his anger - in the completion of a moment there is no remnant..As thy Ka endures! thou wilt be merciful” wikipedia

“The Theban royal women wielded great power, and influence and were closely involved with the cult of Amun. Queen Ahmose Nefertari (the Great Wife of the Pharaoh Ahmose I) was granted the title "God's Wife of Amun" with reference to the myth that Amun created the world by masturbation“http://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/amun.html

“The process began when Atum appeared on the mound and gave rise the air god Shu and his sister Tefnut, whose existence represented the emergence of an empty space amid the waters. To explain how Atum did this, the myth uses the metaphor of masturbation, with the hand he used in this act representing the female principle inherent within him” wikipedia

“Min is an Ancient Egyptian god whose cult originated in predynastic times (4th millennium BC). He was represented in many different forms, but was often represented in male human form, shown with an erect penis which he holds in his left hand and an upheld right arm holding a flail. As Khem or Min, he was the god of reproduction; as Khnum, he was the creator of all things, "the maker of gods and men". Wikipedia

“Shiva Linga is a wide spread Indian Phallic figure. It consists of a feminine base ‘Yoni’ or ‘vagina’ and a rising masculine portion ‘the Phallus’ or ‘penis.’ The Linga artifacts, dating from the first century BC to the third century AD, are shaped like realistic ‘Phalli’. Thereafter the shape becomes progressively more abstract. By medieval times, its observable portion, rising from the Yoni, forms a round block with domed apex.
Shiva, the lord of erect Phallus (urdhvalinga), is traced to the ithyphallic figure of Indus Valley civilization or to the phallic images found more generally in prehistoric India. The epics and Puranas tell how a great fire appeared from the cosmic waters, and from this flame Linga Shiva emerged to claim supremacy and worship over Brahma and Vishnu, when he was castrated because he seduced sages’ wives in the pine forests of Himalayas. He castrated himself because no one could castrate the Supreme Lord. Thus fallen phallus of the Supreme Lord destroyed all the worlds until it reached the Yoni of Uma/Parvati and cooled down. All procreation of worlds started after the worship of Yoni-Linga was restored and all Gods, including Vishnu and Brahma accepted supremacy of Lord Shiva.
Lord Shiva’s other form is ‘Ardhanariswara’, half man and half woman….

We may see an explanation in the above for the many standing stones and dolmens in the world, for church towers and spires. This is all around us but occult. Parents dread the day they have to explain ‘the facts of life’ and often ask teachers to do this for them.

Reve x

25-09-2012, 12:06 PM
I had asked that Tor was not banned. I would rather make peace or love than war. There are already plenty of people on my doorstep who would punch my lights out for my mobile phone or loose change. Fortunately there are far more who are exceptionally nice.

I am going to see one of the great healers in the world today - Jan de Vries. He is the man whose book I read some years ago and whose advice I followed. I had been developing osteo and rheumatoid arthritis and my doctors had nothing but toxic drugs to offer. Dr de Vries suggested in one of his books that these conditions were post viral and that evening primrose oil should be taken daily for many months. I bought the book at a jumble sale and found the page immediately. As a result the arthritis was stopped in its tracks and I can run and play my guitar better than ever in my life. His story is very interesting. I do wish our Emin had been able to fulfill its healing promise as that was what brought me to it. But as Leo said if you can heal you can inflict and you need the moral probity to ensure that you never inflict if you are on that way. Teaching healing was easier than preaching the responsibilities that go with that teaching sadly. But it may not be too late.

I am hoping that Dr de Vries can cope with my cluster headaches. No one should have to suffer these and soetimes I wonder if Leo suffered with them too:

" Dr. Peter Goadsby, Professor of Clinical Neurology at University College London (now at University of California, San Francisco), a leading researcher on the condition has commented:

"Cluster headache is probably the worst pain that humans experience. I know that’s quite a strong remark to make, but if you ask a cluster headache patient if they’ve had a worse experience, they’ll universally say they haven't. Women with cluster headache will tell you that an attack is worse than giving birth. So you can imagine that these people give birth without anesthetic [several] times a day. Many cluster headache sufferers have committed suicide, leading to the nickname "suicide headaches" for cluster headaches. Cluster headaches often occur periodically: spontaneous remissions interrupt active periods of pain, though there are about 20% of suffers whose cluster headaches never remit. The cause of the condition is currently unknown. It affects approximately 0.1% of the population, and men are more commonly affected than women" wikipedia

Perhaps it is karmic. There is no pain killer effective, even morphine does nothing. I have had these things for most of my life. When the cluster strikes you get them about 5 times a day/night especially on waking. They are like a hot poker being wiggled around the eye socket and behind it. Pictures of them drawn by sufferers are quite vivid. We have an Organisation for Understanding Cluster Headaches called OUCH but we still do not understand them. If Dr de Vries can alleviate these he will be a real saviour to many people. A smack in the face is of no consequence by comparison. Mine were inherited. I have no way of knowing how many of my ancestors had to put up with them but I am sure we all learned to pray in the same way. That any human would seek to torture another to replicate such pain is beyond belief but they do and get paid well for it. Rendition is something the US will never be able to justify. That it was commissioned by men with no understanding of pain is dreadful. They disgraced all humans and insult the great goddess. Even so such treatment is too terrible for them in this life and is the biggest problem with revenge. Treat others as you wish to be treated, even if you are not so treated yourself.

reve x

25-09-2012, 12:43 PM
Having observed Leo 'intensely for many many years, one observation of many springs to mind!
As you like to point out ?
Leo's likes; Leo liked Charles Dickens's Uriah Heep "I be ever so humble, I be"
So, before 'I be ever so humble' and for a point of clarity and truthfulness, to whom should I direct my thanks for your timely intervention re:
"I had asked that Tor was not banned.
Any names spring to mind ? so that I can offer my thanks directly in a PM.
Our mute 1OO,OOO viewers are poised infront of their computors.

25-09-2012, 12:51 PM
you are coming here at a very good time in fact. Why not meet me here? I am sure you are an expert and I have also spent many years studying this. We should have a wonderful time. It is a lovely place too next to the River Kelvin and Glasgow University.

"Coming soon!
Pharaoh – King of Egypt
3 November 2012–24 February 2013
Kelvingrove will soon be welcoming a fascinating British Museum touring show, Pharaoh–King of Egypt, as the next temporary exhibition.

Opening on 3 November, the exhibition will showcase 130 objects from the British Museum’s outstanding collection of ancient Egyptian artefacts, which is the largest of its kind outside of Egypt.

The exhibition explores the three main roles of the pharaoh in ancient Egypt – as head of state, chief priest and commander of the army. The exhibition will also look into the semi-divine status of pharaohs, which placed them as the intermediary between the world of men and that of the gods. The manner of representing the pharaoh through costume, crowns and regalia will also be investigated.

You will be able to see some fantastic treasures of ancient Egypt, including sculpture, bronze figures, written works on papyrus, jewellery and weapons."

You can instruct me on the army side and I can do my holier than thou bit on the high priest. Perhaps we can also talk to the heron and feed the ducks.


25-09-2012, 12:55 PM
Perhaps we should be grateful to Mr Icke who tolerates both of us here and must at times be alarmed at some of the things we think and write.

r x

25-09-2012, 01:00 PM
Moderator Note:

I have removed and/or edited some of the posts here and ask that members please refrain from insults or personal attacks

25-09-2012, 01:27 PM
You'll be pleased to know I once bought your avatar a coffee at 5am on the start-line of a Rally. 'Butter really would melt in my mouth. Just look left..Tor

25-09-2012, 03:28 PM
When I was 8 my school number was 23, my brother 24. My dad had to nail the number with small brass tacks into the soles of our shoes for the next 5 years and 23 became my lucky number. Later in life I started meeting people who also thought 23 lucky, some would bet on it at roulette and swore it was a magic number. It is the 9th prime number and the total of three previous consecutive primes, 5,7 & 11. In fact it crops up in many forms. Films have even been made about it. I do not know how many of you have encountered this phenomenon but here is a wiki take on it:

"Robert Anton Wilson cites William S. Burroughs as being the first person to believe in the 23 enigma. Wilson, in an article in Fortean Times, related the following story:

I first heard of the 23 enigma from William S Burroughs, author of Naked Lunch, Nova Express, etc. According to Burroughs, he had known a certain Captain Clark, around 1960 in Tangier, who once bragged that he had been sailing 23 years without an accident. That very day, Clark’s ship had an accident that killed him and everybody else aboard. Furthermore, while Burroughs was thinking about this crude example of the irony of the gods that evening, a bulletin on the radio announced the crash of an airliner in Florida, USA. The pilot was another captain Clark and the flight was Flight 23.

Burroughs wrote a short story in 1967 called "23 Skidoo." The term "23 skidoo" was popularized in the early 1920s and means "it's time to leave while the getting is good." It appeared in newspapers as early as 1906.

The Principia Discordia states that "All things happen in fives, or are divisible by or are multiples of five, or are somehow directly or indirectly appropriate to 5"—this is referred to as the Law of Fives. The 23 Enigma is regarded as a corollary of this law, since 2+3=5. It can be seen in Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea's The Illuminatus! Trilogy (therein called the "23/17 phenomenon"), Wilson's Cosmic Trigger I: The Final Secret of the Illuminati (therein called "The Law of fives" and "The 23 Enigma"), Arthur Koestler's Challenge of Chance, as well as the Principia Discordia. In these works, 23 is considered lucky, unlucky, sinister, strange, or sacred to the goddess Eris or to the unholy gods of the Cthulhu Mythos.

As with most numerological claims, the enigma can be viewed as an example of apophenia, selection bias, and confirmation bias. In interviews, Wilson acknowledged the self-fulfilling nature of the enigma, implying that the real value of the Laws of Fives and Twenty-threes lies in their demonstration of the mind's power to perceive "truth" in nearly anything.

When you start looking for something you tend to find it. This wouldn't be like Simon Newcomb, the great astronomer, who wrote a mathematical proof that heavier than air flight was impossible and published it a day before the Wright brothers took off. I'm talking about people who found a pattern in nature and wrote several scientific articles and got it accepted by a large part of the scientific community before it was generally agreed that there was no such pattern, it was all just selective perception."

In the Illuminatus! Trilogy, he expresses the same view: that one can find a numerological significance to anything, provided "sufficient cleverness."

The 1998 German film 23, starring August Diehl as computer hacker Karl Koch, tells the real-life story of computer hackers inspired by Wilson's Illuminatus! Trilogy.
The 2007 film The Number 23, starring Jim Carrey, is the story of a man who becomes obsessed with the number 23 while reading a book of the same title that seems to be about his life.
Industrial music group Throbbing Gristle recounted in great detail the meeting of Burroughs and Clark and the significance of the number 23 in the ballad "The Old Man Smiled." 1998 also saw the Punk/Metal band Theory23 come out. Founder/bass player John J. Briggs admits he has based his band and everything around the number 23." wikipedia

In sport it was worn by Michael Jordan and Shane Warne and when his No 7 was occupied on moving to Real Madrid David Beckham took it as his number in deference to Michael Jordan. As a result millions of kids started wearing it.

The 23rd Psalm has an almost magical status too and has fortified the opinions about this special number.

I guess that one can see the occult workings of numerology in the above. Of course 42 is another magic number now. It is also the number of the nomes, or states in Ancient Egypt broken into 19 & 23 Lower and Upper Egypt. 19 is another - the cycle of the moon in years and the prime before 23. It is also my birthday. Since childhood I have counted to 19 and then 23 when waiting for something or in very stressful situations but never been sure why. However on a resounding number of occasions it has been a perfect count. Curious - please share your number experiences.

reve x

25-09-2012, 05:42 PM
It is a curious one really - 'those who God has joined together let no man put asunder'. It is only something sworn in church weddings. In my case my marriages were conducted by the State not the Church as divorce was a big deal. What i am pointing to is the God has joined together part. Why should marriage be a religous matter or a state matter? People marry for many reasons, love being only one, the wishes of others another. They may well intend to stay faithful to each other, or intend that their partner do this but to swear on oath before God is something rather compelling. In theory breaking that oath is a passport straight to hell. The nearest I can come to it is that there is an earthly relationship and a higher one. One for us mortals and one for our kas. We may hope that we are marrying Mr or Mrs Right but that is really determined by our ka. In most cases it would not make much difference as we are hardly likely to become our ka in this life. But if we will then we will be meeting the ka's partner at some time, quite possibly after committing to someone else. When tantric magic is practised the one invited to union is the higher one, inhabiting an earthly creature to bring higher and lower together temporarily. The theory is that when the two higher ones are joined there is a higher circuit connected to the lower one and we experience that rare higher force. Anyway it is the higher relationship that 'God' has joined together. The late Sun Myung Moon made a thing about arranging the marriages of his followers, many marrying at the same time in huge ceremonies. He saw himself as the god joining them together.

Our ka partner is the chief husband or wife. The others are the others. But that relationship is pretty hard to find. The bible illustrates it - Abraham and Sarah, but he had other partners too. Jacob and Rachel, but he first married her sister Leah. With the Egyptians it was usually the sister of the Pharaoh but although that was the official marriage he had other partners who would often conceive. Inbreeding has never had good results. In India they use astrology (in theory) to find the correct partner. It is not something to worry about but is something to look out for, in others and your self. If you are open to your ka it will make it happen, albeit with you screaming and struggling through divorce courts or bereavement. The magical practices are only a poor relation to the real thing. In some cases the archetypes were married many millennia ago, but we never knew that when we fell in love and married Mr or Ms Wrong impatiently. However when one has that feeling that you have known someone all your life, that this is a soulmate or dream partner maybe there is a bit of truth in it. Nuns are the 'brides of Christ' in many cases but monks do not seem to have the same sort of relationship which is odd. So many these days experience union with Shiva or Shakti that it must be very busy for them. Or do they make it like that and use us?

reve x

25-09-2012, 06:15 PM
The bullies of this world always want any protests subdued

This perhaps encapsulates the point that some of us have been trying to make about some of your posts, Reve. If anyone's a bully on this thread, it's you. First, by constantly dominating the discussion with your whatever your current mental meanderings come up with - did I see David Beckham's name in one of them, for heaven's sake? Which on it's own might not be so bad, but it's not just a passive tendency with you. If you don't like the direction a conversation goes in - i.e. it doesn't directly involve you - you come in and try to trash it. As I've mentioned before, a good example was when I was having a conversation with someone else about the Earth Mysteries movement and you came thundering in trying to rubbish the reputation of Paul Devereux. What's that, if it's not bullying? Oh, sorry, you already said you can't help me with this issue. Which let's face it is exactly the kind of evasion bullies make when challenged - as you say, they want any protests subdued.

What you seem incapable of doing is accepting that other people have other views to you. Again, another form of bullying. You've emotionally bullied this thread almost from the start to agree with your view that the Emin should answer to your abuse claims. I don't recall anyone on here ever agreeing that this is the right place for you to do this; in fact, anyone who's commented on it has expressed the view that it's inappropriate for you to persist. Yet you do. Bullying again.

You've bullied me constantly. Telling me I'm 'heartless', a 'min-despot', 'programmed' etc. And there's your bullying by association: persistently claiming that Tor and I are conspiring against you. Nonsense. As I've said many times to your remarkably deaf ears on this matter, Tor and I happen to share some views about your posts. That does not mean we are harmonising together like the two little TV pigs you have often likened us to.

You talk about making a stand. Well, that's what I've been doing here. Making a stand against people who try to dominate open-ended discussions by emotionally bullying others into accepting their views.

25-09-2012, 08:16 PM
I was born severely deaf so you are right about my ears at least. But if i am a bully and a man telling me he will visit shortly to smack me in the face is not then we are on different planets. JennM there is endless space here to post whatever you want. No one is stopping you but when anyone posts on a forum they invariably attract criticism. If you look back you will see that I have posted almost daily and attracted more criticism and hostility than anyone else, perhaps more than anyone on this forum. Considering that all I am doing is sharing knowledge and opinions it seems a little hard to call me a bully.

As for mentioning serious abuse cases in the Emin your attitude is a mystery to me when you constantly criticise me for being a bully. I do not mean to bully you at all but do not understand why your contributions here are so negative. I want to befriend Tor and you, not bully you nor incite to violence. But you do tend to take everything I write very personally. Can you recall any Leo lectures on personal involvement or multi-confinement? What they were saying was that when we take things very personally we miss the point. Not reading my posts or pastes but criticising me is doing exactly that. Better to avoid the forum in all honesty in my opinion than to get stuck in a rut like that as it helps no one and also ignores most of what Leo taught us all. If Paul Devereux is your personal subject and not one open to criticism then this is certainly an inappropriate place to bring him up. But abuse in the Emin is very relevant and I find your attitude to it extremely odd. My experience of domestic violence seminars/counselling was of the inevitable anger from those who practised it, who always ignored the abused and concentrated on the incitement as if they were the real victims. I am not suggesting at all you are an abuser and it may take a bit of thinking but if you look on your profile here and then read your posts one after another you will see what I mean. Take me out and look at you for a change. It tells a different story.

Those who know me are amazed to hear that i am called a bully here. I have often been bullied because I am a weed, a pacifist and have a hearing disability. Perhaps a check of the definition might help. Would you call that poor woman who was bulldozed to death for standing up against the demolition of 1700 Palestinian homes a bully? Some Israelis insist she was, in fact protestors are routinely called bullies and terrorists. But the heavy handed police are just doing their job. Standing up and being counted is not quite what the word bully is for. Threatening to beat someone up when you have been trained by the SAS and they have not, and you object to what they have written on the internet about someone you both knew is a bit closer to the mark. But you obviously will never agree that Tor was trying to bully me, and forever feel the victim of my 'worm like tongue' as you call it.

We have been asked not to insult each other and i have no wish to but i have to clarify that bullying is not where I am at. Info dumping is not my game either. Getting to the heart of the matter is. But i am not perfect either. I am convinced that Tor and I can not only make up but enjoy a long and sincere friendship because I know he loves Leo and means well. You too.
O dea

reve x

25-09-2012, 08:39 PM
seems to be the topic of the day:

[QUOTE]The president condemned the amateur anti-Islam film that has sparked violent protests across the region as "crude and disgusting" but vehemently defended free speech.

"Americans have fought and died around the globe to protect the right of all people to express their views, even views that we disagree with," he said.

The strongest weapon against hateful speech, Obama said, is "not repression, it is more speech."

"On this we must agree: there is no speech that justifies mindless violence," he said.

"There are no words that excuse the killing of innocents. There is no video that justifies an attack on an embassy. There is no slander that provides an excuse for people to burn a restaurant in Lebanon, or destroy a school in Tunis, or cause death and destruction in Pakistan," he added.

The president challenged his global counterparts to "seize this moment" and speak out forcefully against violent extremism

I agree with him but would remind him that there are extremists on both sides. If Israel can threaten Iran, then Iran must be allowed to threaten Israel. Almost all Palestinians are by definition 'innocents' and must not be killed. Drone strikes must never target or hurt innocents, nor bombing. Illegal occupation of the land of innocents must be stopped and if not they must be allowed to fight back and be supported by all the coutries in the world that have deemed the occupation illegal (all except Israel).

Or do we allow hypocrisy to rule and allow big nations to bully small ones?

reve x

25-09-2012, 08:43 PM
Nice piece of 'what me?' avoidance, Reve. You know very well it's you who's been going on about being bullied. And once again, you sneakily try to connect me and Tor in order to use two accusations for the price of one.

Considering that all I am doing is sharing knowledge and opinions

This actually made me laugh. It sounds so reasonable. What you haven't mentioned is that your opinions are sometimes extremely insulting, e.g. and once again, you calling me 'heartless', a 'mini-despot' etc.

As for mentioning serious abuse cases in the Emin your attitude is a mystery to me when you constantly criticise me for being a bully.

This proves yet again that you should work for the No. 10 press office.

Can you recall any Leo lectures on personal involvement or multi-confinement? What they were saying was that when we take things very personally we miss the point. Not reading my posts or pastes but criticising me is doing exactly that. Better to avoid the forum in all honesty in my opinion than to get stuck in a rut like that as it helps no one and also ignores most of what Leo taught us all.

Thank you for the lecture. This really is a sociopathic comment. Spoken mildly, 'reasonably' but in fact full of cold venom.

If Paul Devereux is your personal subject and not one open to criticism then this is certainly an inappropriate place to bring him up.

The reason I keep bringing this up is to highlight the fact you never admit you're wrong. You don't have the backbone to own up to a rushed judgement made in error - both at a factual and critical level.

My experience of domestic violence seminars/counselling was of the inevitable anger from those who practised it, who always ignored the abused and concentrated on the incitement as if they were the real victims. I am not suggesting at all you are an abuser and it may take a bit of thinking but if you look on your profile here and then read your posts one after another you will see what I mean. Take me out and look at you for a change. It tells a different story.

You worm. Of course you're suggesting what you say you aren't. This is an example of just how low you go when you're caught on the hook of your own hypocrisy and haven't the balls to apologise. Don't worry: I've given it a bit of thinking all right.

Would you call that poor woman who was bulldozed to death for standing up against the demolition of 1700 Palestinian homes a bully?

And here you really excel yourself.

So, Reve, I'm off again for a while now. It's been interesting, to a degree. There are different kinds of bullying of course. You've bullied me off this thread, for example. I'm not upset or damaged by it but exasperated enough to take a break.

25-09-2012, 08:47 PM
So, Reve, I'm off again for a while now. It's been interesting, to a degree. There are different kinds of bullying of course. You've bullied me off this thread, for example. I'm not upset or damaged by it but exasperated enough to take a break.


You really need to question your motive for being on this thread.

25-09-2012, 08:54 PM
Speaking of twisting ones words, which has always been for me 'caustic in the first instance, before joining the emin I was a medic for 5 years and whist living in garthamlock, leant how to heal 'cluster headaches, I actually became quite proficient in the technique, I must share it with you, it always seems to work, it sort of takes ones' mind away from the self, commonly referred to in medical terms as the gorbals kiss. You yoni...T
PS: Also does wonders for hearing 'I hear.
'sell my soul for a mess of pottage ? or a pharaonic bauble, as if.

26-09-2012, 07:30 AM

You really need to question your motive for being on this thread. I think not. There's only one person on this thread who needs to take a good look at their motives. The one who has dominated the entire thread, ignoring anyone else's comments or simply drowning them out with esoteric diarrhoea. The person who has stated numerous times that they are here waiting for the Emin to contact them about the alleged abuse of others nearly 40 years ago. Is this person the alleged victims legal representative ? Is David Icke aware that his site is being used to repeatedly post libellous claims of abuse, or the deliberate covering up of abuse ? Mr Icke may have a disclaimer, to avoid any responsibility for the views that are posted here, but the site could be in serious trouble if the Emin or their associates were to take offense, as those claims of abuse have been repeated over and over again over a period of many months, without any attempt to remove them.

26-09-2012, 08:37 AM
this slowly and I will make it short. Any of you and all of you can use this thread and fill it so full no one would notice me but you dont. JennM, Rainbow and Tor you use it solely to attack me rather crudely and none of you learned that in the Emin. I have always stated that when others make good use of it I will leave them to it. Rainbow you need to learn about 'libel' and free speech. Obama talked yesterday about the latter.


26-09-2012, 08:49 AM
All we need now is some crap about rap and we have a full house on contributors to this thread.
Never mind ethra contacting this thread what about the silent 1OO,OOO 'mute viewers that all must suffer Stenosing Tenosynovitis, arthritic fingers...Tor.
PS: SW. the title is 'ex-emin members which jennm is are you ?

26-09-2012, 09:51 AM
I think not. There's only one person on this thread who needs to take a good look at their motives. The one who has dominated the entire thread, ignoring anyone else's comments or simply drowning them out with esoteric diarrhoea. The person who has stated numerous times that they are here waiting for the Emin to contact them about the alleged abuse of others nearly 40 years ago. Is this person the alleged victims legal representative ? Is David Icke aware that his site is being used to repeatedly post libellous claims of abuse, or the deliberate covering up of abuse ? Mr Icke may have a disclaimer, to avoid any responsibility for the views that are posted here, but the site could be in serious trouble if the Emin or their associates were to take offense, as those claims of abuse have been repeated over and over again over a period of many months, without any attempt to remove them.

Right Rainbow you are now threatening David Icke who is a good man and does not need this. The Emin investigated both abuse claims. I have explained my position. Friend in the first case who raised the matter with Orman. Official Emin witness in the second case. The matters are not only known about by Orman and Orion who were both the senior Emin officers at the time but also by Leo. It is the Emin who should have reported the cases to the police is it not? The cases of abuse being investigated and admitted by the Catholic Church are also 40 years old or more. It makes no difference to conscience. I am not drowning anyone in esoteric .......... as you call it, nor info dumping. You are trying that without the esoteric aren't you? The fact is that you show clearly what was wrong with the Emin and it needs separating out and cleaning because of people like you who have absolutely no consideration for innocents hurt in the process and no understanding of the teachings. Leo does, as no doubt you will one day discover. Hyjack the Emin at your own risk. Real Emins do not use vile language nor abuse each other. Truth and Justice are far more important.

Tor is threatening me with physical abuse yet again but that does not seem to bother you. I wonder why.


26-09-2012, 03:57 PM
In terms of the potential uses of this forum, the last thing I expected to see was a long-running battle between people who have never actually met one another, have some strange personal agenda things going on full of accusations and counter accusations that are being put out there it appears, to deliberately wind each other up.

This then turns into a rather childish game of who's siding with who..?

This is all very sad when you consider what David Icke is trying to get across i.e. how can we think about changing the world when we can't even change ourselves...if we want to topple this world of manipulated division and conflict, then this thread is not a particularly good example of how people are going about achieving that.

That is not to say there cannot be differences of opinion etc but it's a matter of where people are coming from when that difference is voiced.

Personally, as I've mentioned in previous posts, I value the thoughts and views of Emin current and ex members as in general I found them to be intelligent, interesting people and in view of the resources that are now more easily and readily accessible, then this forum represents an opportunity to re-evaluate Emin teachings as there is now no excuse not to do personal research and come up with evidence based findings..!

When I say re-evaluate, I mean this is a Divid Icke web site. How many Emins have actually checked out his research and how many have dismissed his views because they are not from the Emin doctrine? How many descend into that closed-minded poo-pooing of anything that is not apparantly Emin?

This thread may be regular viewing for many people, but there are not many contributors. I think partly the reason for that is that people will be reluctant to contribute anything in the midst of an in-house domestic argument that is laying all manner of emotional mine fields.

Is it not a bit scary that this thread has seen the intervention of the "moderator"..? What does that tell you about the nature of the discussion that is going on here..?

In my previous post I mentioned something I had found re Origins of Life and the Interventionist theory. I kind of hoped people might check that out and possibly even discuss it. But no, it got lost in this continual cycle of conflict, with no resolution in sight.

I have heard that Leo was not too keen on the publication "Sayings of Leo, Towards Yourself" but one of the sayings that best sums up this thread for me is,

"You let it go and it stays alive; you try to keep it alive and it fades."

Kind regards


26-09-2012, 09:05 PM
This thread was started here for a reason. It was because the op carlperkins saw similarities between Leo’s work and David Icke. So it was not twitter, face book or friends reunited, not the Emin website but what is a conspiracy forum. It is on the general part of the forum and this is the page where we are today with the total views next to each thread title:
Any members or ex-members of the Emin here? 102,179 Rave Scene and Mind-Control 11,645 Zombie Apocalipse is Janus End Times Brainwashing! 745 London sights? 154 We are not responsible for our actions. 7,006 What if money was no object? An amazingly insight 204 The Crisis of Zionism 339 Why do I work? 812
I am a Manchurian Candidate! 368 Unnatural weather videos? 253 Debenhams Corporate Snatch-Squad Manchester 867 Free Planet, it was there all the time. 1,478
We are Preparing for Massive Civil War 500 Poll: Hands up - who doesn't mind the world ending? 1,362 Rubbing Batteries ……..

This is not the Emin. In the Emin a few hundred people might attend a meeting and a very few would speak publicly at it. Perhaps four or five. Most were scared stiff to put a hand up and get called out. In the small meetings things might have been more relaxed but in fact were not so different. A lot of people did not have much to say and were there to learn not spout forth.

If you look at the thread titles above you will find they cover a huge area - not all conspiracy - some relating to quite mundane subjects. There are no hard and fast rules as long as people are civil to each other. Here they are not and if anything that has become a central theme to this thread which was started on 1.2.08 and had 9 posts by 1.2.10. By 9.5.11 when Orman appeared there had been a total of 16 posts. By 9.5.12 there had been 1030 posts and today we have reached 2004, about 1200 being written by me.

Most of the pages here are packed with information of an occult nature, but there are a fair few bickering and complaints thrown in. If no one enjoyed reading this there would not be where we were. 3,360 views over the last 6 days. The fact that few post has nothing to do with it, as few spoke in the Emin either. We might all like the thread to be different but it is what it is and if you think about it says a huge amount about the Emin as seen through the eyes of a few ex-Emins. Of course there are non-Emins here - it is not an Emin Forum. And lately we have enjoyed finding out the occult basis of Rap, something few know anything about.

There is current research going on here too - like who is the Merlin that spoke to Leo. There are subjects which are scarcely believable - Leo speaking to Merlin and an alien called Toir. Egypt nights. Healing. Elementals in a cage in the Putney Temple. My claim to communicate with Leo, dead these last ten years. There are some here who have the fondest memories of the Emin and others who recall bullying and abuse. There are literally hundreds of stories told by Leo and his teachings. All coming here will find out things they would not discover anywhere else. And there are physical threats and occult attacks against me in particular.

Why not accept that it is a very popular thread because of all these things? I was brought here by a dream with Leo and his box. I tried to contact Ethra after another dream of Leo. Does it really matter? Is it so harmful that I must die for what I have written here? We can all think what we like or watch dallas instead which I am about to do.

Reve x

26-09-2012, 10:17 PM
Moderator Notice

This thread is now reopen!

Please try and stay on topic and refrain from personal insults

28-09-2012, 09:21 AM
well here we are in a another street, but the same town. It may be upsetting to some to be on the darker side of town but perhaps we can shed a little light and improve.

After quite intense discussions with Leo and my dad we have decided that it is time to look at 'spiritualism' in depth. Whatever readers make of my claim to be able to speak with those who have passed on and other spirits, there is a long history to this.

All the Abrahamic religions are based in spiritualism. Were it not possible then no prophet ever spoke with God, no mortal ever had a successful prayer to Jesus and the saints, and Muhammed never met the angel who dictated the Koran. Like most businesses there are frauds and people who make a business uncovering them.

Other cultures have none of this inhibition as the medicine men and witch doctors show. Buddhism and Hinduism are even more clearly based in the spiritual side of the human and many of their teachers have appeared from the after life.

We cannot really pick and choose. If our Prime Minister goes to church he is part of this. Our Queen is a most spiritual woman. The problem lies in who you can believe has the ability to see or contact spirits. Even the Tarot is based in this when used for divination. And in the Emin we were at one time learning to develop our abilities. This is why priesthood developed and also why the Ancient Egyptian 'priests' and 'priestesses' spent months in seclusion on rigorous diets to be able to perform their duty and deal with the after life.

Perhaps there is a gene. I did this naturally as a boy. It may be the books read to me as a child, the fact that I lived in a spiritual house where prayer was ever present, or even because of my disability. Not only did I talk to spirits and learn from them, others recognised this in me and I instinctively recognised it in others. And not the ones you might expect. I was born in Africa after all and as a baby always on the lap of an African. But most of you have a similar ability and use it.

The other difficulty with spiritualism, once you have sieved out the frauds who are in it for power and money (because the art is invisible), is whether the spirits are 'good' or 'bad' or indeed know anything worth revealing.

My argument is that it is a natural ability - quite separate from schizophrenia unless the whole world suffers with this - and that it can be developed. But like languages some do this faster and better than others if they have a natural flair or work hard, and some excpect the world to speak English so do not bother.

As we are in our new home we need to look at these 'astral entities and spirit possession' too. But I am starting from two simple points. Without spiritualism Leo would never have been able to start the Emin, and I would never have started posting here. It is a big subject and will take some time. I will take advice, keep my head down and fixed on my work, discuss freely but accept that many will not agree, will be angry. So be it even the news brings anger out in us but I will not be fighting any here. Leo either does communicate with me , or he does not but it is certainly possible. Whether I am a fraud or not comes into the work quite obviously.

So good morning all - normal service will be resumed and thanks to David Icke and his moderators for allowing that.

reve x

28-09-2012, 11:09 AM
so below comes up all the time. There are hierarchies and rules down here and so there are above. It is quite difficult to gather the evidence for that but something I, and other mediums I have met, have frequently encountered is that some spirits are inhibited. There are things that 'souls', or those who have passed away, are not allowed to tell us and it is also obvious that they would if they were allowed. From dreams I have also encountered the hierarchies and in fact seen quite harsh treatment of some, which makes me realise how important it is to reach the more accommodating levels in the after life. Another starting point is to try to understant the difference beteen a 'soul' and a 'spirit'. Souls are much more timid and regulated. Spirits have much greater freedom but they can both appear hominoid and similar.

How many of you have dreamed of a departed friend or relative? Indeed of anyone. It does not mean that they were in the dream meeting you does it? Or does it? Jung would see this as the global unconscious perhaps but there are clearly different types of dreams. It is scientifically proven with REM and dream laboratories etc. But in our own experience there will be some dreams that are a bit prophetic, some very vivid and some that have dead people in them. In the same way when one is conscious and involved in spirit communication there are very different levels to this and one is the wannabe level. That was quite prevalent in the Emin as people strove for recognition and advancement. But it is a natural part of learning and I sum it in a saying that I misheard one day. I thought Orman said it, asked Leo who asked him and they both denied it. 'You mum your development'. It is true in fact. It really means that you act out being an advanced soul and that allows certain things to happen. Then you find it is not acting at all. On the creepy side you might see it in someone pretending to contact the 'devil' and finding they have done that, whatever it is which brings me to this.

Now this is not a much visited part of the Forum yet and it is because of the inhibition we have when we see the word 'satanism' which is just as well. People often do not want to talk about it, read it, see films about it or even think about it lest it comes in. I have written at some length about the fallen angels who are called 'satans' and it is all about them and the fear they like to instill in us and also about the rituals they need for their sustenance. They do not have much power over anyone who rejects them but have great power in another way. They have run our world and religions for a very long time dressed as holy men and great moralists who like to beat children and burn witches. They do not like the independent spiritualists but we are protected from them and that is why. If you can make friends with your own 'ka' they can have no power over you and in fact you will have great power over them. But we have to ensure we are safe to have any power because we can fall just like the angels who fell before. The ka is a spirit, the ba a soul but both live in us. Our souls are more like our histories, most very sad and unfulfilled.

In reality poeple should be just as concerned about religion as satanism because both are now controlled by the same evil spirits, both seek power and demand hefty contributions to that end. The Emin was to be our alternative but of course it was just as attractive as any other religion to the unscrupulous.

You can dismiss this if you wish but I will reveal a great secret. It is the relationship between the Emin, Leo and Israel and Palestine. All came from Egypt with pure intentions and chequered histories. They have had identical problems to face too. It is the as above so below syndrome. Israel is the brother of Esau, just as Osiris is the brother of Set, and he the brother of Horus. They all feel cheated and that competition, be it for minds, land or power, is a stumbling block. In the Emin it can also be seen in the competition between the Jewish Emin and the non-Jewish Emin. There was no difference, nor intended to be, and room for all in one Emin. Sadly a separation (selah) was created by the creation of the Jewish Emin which was something that some of the Jewish members wanted understandably so they could better explore and understand their heritage. Leo at first resisted this but eventually gave in and we now have a lot of different Emins under one template. But then we have a lot of different nations under a UN, and two nations under Israel. It does not work and separation is not the answer unless absolurtely essential to prevent two brothers fighting. Look at Bobby and JR. There is an answer and it is reconciliation. Long after stealing his older twin brother's blessing and buying his birthright with some lentil soup when he was starving, Jacob or Israel as he was then called met his brother Esau (father of the Palestinains and some Arab nations) again. He was terrified at the prospect but look what happened:

Genesis 33:

33 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two female servants. 2 He put the female servants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.

4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. 5 Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.

Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”

6 Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.

8 Esau asked, “What’s the meaning of all these flocks and herds I met?”

“To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

9 But Esau said, “I already have plenty, my brother. Keep what you have for yourself.”

10 “No, please!” said Jacob. “If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably. 11 Please accept the present that was brought to you, for God has been gracious to me and I have all I need.” And because Jacob insisted, Esau accepted it.

12 Then Esau said, “Let us be on our way; I’ll accompany you.”

13 But Jacob said to him, “My lord knows that the children are tender and that I must care for the ewes and cows that are nursing their young. If they are driven hard just one day, all the animals will die. 14 So let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I move along slowly at the pace of the flocks and herds before me and the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.”

15 Esau said, “Then let me leave some of my men with you.”

“But why do that?” Jacob asked. “Just let me find favor in the eyes of my lord.”

16 So that day Esau started on his way back to Seir. 17 Jacob, however, went to Sukkoth, where he built a place for himself and made shelters for his livestock. That is why the place is called Sukkoth.[a]

18 After Jacob came from Paddan Aram,[b] he arrived safely at the city of Shechem in Canaan and camped within sight of the city. 19 For a hundred pieces of silver,[c] he bought from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem, the plot of ground where he pitched his tent. 20 There he set up an altar and called it El Elohe Israel.[d]

Footnotes:a.Genesis 33:17 Sukkoth means shelters.
b.Genesis 33:18 That is, Northwest Mesopotamia
c.Genesis 33:19 Hebrew hundred kesitahs; a kesitah was a unit of money of unknown weight and value.
d.Genesis 33:20 El Elohe Israel can mean El is the God of Israel or mighty is the God of Israel.

We do not need to any less civilised than our tribal patriarchs do we? Of course the rehetoric is terrifying but that is so sad - where is the rhetoric of reconciliation? Suspicion has its place and the spirits are deeply suspicious on both sides, but history should tell them we are all one. That is the lovely message that David Icke and carlperkins bring, but unfortunately suspicion is well founded and reconciliation is that elusive part of our humanity. If we argue and fight and threaten each other here who were all in Leo's Emin what chance the world of peace. This is our chance for a new beginning. If Israel can allow this history to repeat, return the land and make a generous offering all will be well and the two nations can embrace and cry happily at last.

reve x

28-09-2012, 12:24 PM
I have mentioned as above so below often enough.

Sita is the Earth Goddess in India and daughter of the Earth goddess. Her name means furrow and it is said she was found in one. Her story is sad enough. She was married to Rama and after being exiled with him was kidnapped. It was a long battle to get her back from, Sri Lanka but after they did questions were asked about her relationship with her kidnapper. She tried to prove her innocence by an ordeal of fire but even so Rama bowed to public pressure and more or less divorced her. She went to live in a nunnery. She gives birth to two sons who are eventually accepted by their father, Rama (if he is the father) but she goes back to the womb of her earth mother (a grave) for release from the unfairness of life.

“In Egypt the (vulture bird) is an emblem of Isis, who once took this form, and is also sacred to Mat as goddess of maternity; she can be depicted as vulture-headed or with a vulture headdress. Hathor can also be vulture-headed and Nekhabet of Southern Egypt sometimes appears as a vulture. The bird was known as "Pharaoh's Hen", representing the feminine principle associated with the Scarab as the male.
In Graeco-Roman myth the vulture is associated with Pallas, Ares/Mars and Apollo and is the mount of Kronos/Saturn. Hercules slew the vulture which tore the liver of Prometheus and the bird was sacred to him. Harpies were represented as having the body of a vulture with the head and breast of a woman. There was a legend that the vulture, like the eagle, did not lay eggs but gave birth to fully-fledged live young. Aelian says that sweet perfume kills vultures and that myrrh and pomegranates are also fatal. The claw of a vulture, like the horn of a unicorn, detects the presence of poison in food or drink.
The Griffin Vulture was a royal emblem on the standards of Assyrian and Persian armies.
There was an Arabian vulture god Nasr.
In West Africa the vulture Fene-Ma-So is the Bird of the Sky, the King of the Birds.”

Today there was a tragic crash in Nepal. A plane run by Sita Air crashed in flames, all 19 on board perished. The pilot reported hitting a vulture shortly after take off. Personally I read into this, quite apart from the sad loss of life in a difficult place to fly but dependant on flight, that our Earth Goddess is threatened, poisoned and that we are all passengers on a doomed plane unless something is done urgently. For a spiritualist unfortunately this is what such news tells me, although the other news headlines constantly suggest imminent immolation. Bit it is as usual unbelievable. The Romans and Greeks would call this an augur, usually associated with birds and foretelling disaster unless urgent action is taken to avoid conflict. They consulted such oracles usually before battles.

I perhaps did not make clear in my last post that I am suggesting that the Emin IS Israel. That the fate of both are connected and that Leo had been working to reconcile both sides. That work is now in the hands of Ethra who, poor woman, represents Sita. She does not deserve to be consigned to containment or a nunnery. Public opinion based on ignorance is the culprit, Sita the victim. Time to change the record. But the infighting of her people is the main problem. Her only friend appears to be the monkey Hanuman, equating to the baboon god Thoth. A planet doomed to die or one that will heed that old Emin Earth poster ‘help this lady she is pregnant’? Such things can be determined above or below if there is a will to do so. Work done here can have its effect there. But this is the hardest place to make a change, the last cog if you like in a gearing system run by billions. The fact that we are now grouped in the ‘Satanist’ rather than ‘general’ section is our own fault. We needed to attend to our victims, ultimately our leader. Of course she feels as though the Emin has crashed and we really need to show here that it can still fly and do its work. Can we please put right the abuses I mentioned. They are only two I know about but taking care of our earth is everything. We are not in the child abuse sacrifice business. That is what the fallen angels have tried to reduce us to and want us not to see, or die fighting over. Fortunately there are hundreds of very good people here who can make all the difference when their eyes are open.

Reve x

28-09-2012, 02:17 PM
another spirit in the news. Himmler had looted the statue from Tibet of Vaisravana almost certainly because he wears a swastika on his chest. This statue is most unusual as it is made of meteoric iron, once gilded, and can be traced to a rare meteorite that crashed into China around 12,000BC. The staue weighs 10kg and is about 1,000 years old.

This god carries a mongoose, the enemy of snakes, and this mongoose spits out jewells which suggests that he is a god of fortune. His brother Ravana was the one who kidnapped Sita and one of his children is called Suta. It was Suta, or the tribe of Suta, or really the followers of Suta, holy men, that recited the Puranas which are the oldest written scriptures on Hinduism and include the Mahabharata. He is one of the 4 Heavenly Kings, a protector of Dharma, considered good therefore by Buddhists especially in Tibet. His name also menas 'hear distinctly' as he hears prayers.

In the Pāli scriptures of the Theravāda Buddhist tradition, Vaiśravaṇa is called Vessavaṇa. Vessavaṇa is one of the Cātummahārājāno, or four Great Kings, each of whom rules over a specific direction. Vessavaṇa's realm is the northern quadrant of the world, including the land of Uttarakuru. According to some suttas, he takes his name from a region there called Visāṇa; he also has a city there called Ālakamandā which is a byword for wealth. Vessavaṇa governs the yakkhas – beings with a nature between 'fairy' and 'ogre'.

Vessavaṇa's wife is named Bhuñjatī, and he has five daughters, Latā, Sajjā, Pavarā, Acchimatī, and Sutā. He has a nephew called Puṇṇaka, a yakkha, husband of the nāga woman Irandatī. He has a chariot called Nārīvāhana. His weapon was the gadāvudha (Sanskrit: gadāyudha), but he only used it before he became a follower of the Buddha.

Vessavaṇa has the name "Kuvera" from a name he had from a past life as a rich Brahmin mill-owner, who gave all the produce of one of his seven mills to charity, and provided alms to the needy for 20,000 years. He was reborn in the Cātummahārājikā heaven as a result of this good kamma.

As with all the Buddhist deities, Vessavaṇa is properly the name of an office (filled for life) rather than a permanent individual. Each Vessavaṇa is mortal, and when he dies, he will be .....

Having been confiscated by Nazis and abused he now returns. Kipling's books used to haver the swatsika printed on the front covers before Hitler adopted the symbol. as a result poor Kipling went to great trouble to try and remove the once holy, but then defiled, ancient symbol.

As for the re-appearance to this God we may dare hope that he will come to the aid of Sita.

reve x

28-09-2012, 05:29 PM
Now they are saying Sita hit an eagle. To them it does not make much difference, but in the spiritual world it is all the difference. They must be able to find it. It is either the hawk god or the vulture goddess. The hawk seems more likely. It is the hawks who are destroying our world and planning the big war, one in particular. The doves are hiding, breakfast for a hawk.

reve x

28-09-2012, 11:05 PM
It is something we have inherited from the ancient Egyptians that we take for granted. If the soul was the BA, the heart was the AB. As soon as you died two things happened (if you happened to be an aristocrat). They removed the organs from your body and put them in jars, apart from the heart, and the body was mummified in a salt solution. But in the after life your heart was weighed against the feather of truth, and if found wanting was devoured. And the worry was that this heart of your would testify against you, so they wrapped a little scarab next to it usually with a spell asking your heart not to do this.

The Egyptians did not think the brain was the most important organ and as well as your emotions, they thought the heart managed the most important functions. Now we know that the heart is not really the seat of our emotions, that would be in the brain, nevertheless we still talk about having a heart, or not, breaking hearts, having a good heart and so on.

It is in the after life that this is manifested and it is a part of us. But what part of us would tell Anubis and Thoth that we were nasty and dishonest? This is the problem with thinking that we are just one entity. When you look around you can see how some Egyptian concepts have a ring of truth. The name or REN is one. Some people are more concerned about their reputation or name that almost anything else. Few are concerned about their heart - how nice and how honest they are. But it is far more important.

Now of course we all think we are nice. There are exceptions - nice is a word many absolutely loathe. But a nice auntie ar a nice man are usually seen as friendly and something positive to be. Modern businessmen have little time for this - efficiency means more, power much more, wealth even more and ultimately getting their own way. But this was abhorrent to the ancients and is still abhorrent in the afterlife. you cannot take it with you, and it gets you nothing just a bad conscience.

Leo used to say 'the answer is in your face' when someone blushed. Not many people blush really but those that do are usually quite nice. It is something that happens spontaneously, often associated with guilt or shyness. And it is a classic case of your heart testifying against you. But this is not where the Egyptian belief comes from. I was called Strawberry at school and would blush just be thinking about blushing, or trying not to blush. At the time to me it ruined my childhood. I could not lie and always felt as though I stood out like a lighthouse. If you have not experienced this you cannot imagine how uncomfortable it is. But looking back I smile.

What it is based in is the concept of Truth - Maat which is represented by the feather. It is your honesty that will testify against you. i suppose a real modern equivalenty is the lie detector. Your physiology can testify against you, and it really does have something to do with your heart. The rapid heart beat you cannot control. When your heart stops so do you.

The very best mediums are of course honest. If they are not they are frauds. I was going to write almost all, but in fact when thinking about it, all the best spiritualists and mediums I have met have been incredibly nice, well meaning people. The almost is that there are mediums who are not but i have but I have qualms about describing them as either good or best. Their hearts will be their undoing. There are bad mediums too.

Anyway it is the heart that survives and this is what a good medium taps into. A bad medium taps into 'bad spirits' the ones the Zoroastrans called 'angra manu' which is self explanatory. Angry men. They are no use to us at all and try to mislead, but some 'spirits' are bad. they will say all sorts of interesting things but are useless to us. Perhaps the problem is that the good hearts do not have much to say at all. They are inhibited from telling us too much and you will note are usually at pains to contact their loved ones. This is the majority of Spiritualism these days - in the Spiritualist Church etc. Doris Stokes and reuniting babies.

But Leo developed something else in his life time, not just his 'blood body' as he called it. He still needed a good heart to survive however he developed what he called a mental body. Contacting him is on a rather different level and his concerns are for his rather bigger family. His REN or name is also something different to that of a businessman. His REN is Leo and is a cult just as avidly attended as any emperor or Pharaoh. I will go into more detail as he has requested but need to explain some of the restrictions and difficulties in this subject. If you wish to contact a mental body, you need one and we can have a look at seeing whether we have or not. It is something quite obvious to those who do and they are often described as adepts. I have met very few, although many who think they do have these. A different sort of mental body that does not survive long after death. When it was written in the bible - there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth, it is about the after life test.

I appreciate this comes over 'holier than thou'. The alternative is to leave the subject as I have so far. If you wish to write about other things please do and fill this thread and add to its diversity, but my work has its own speed and cannot wait until you do. It is not compulsory reading, but is what i would have liked to read 40 years ago. Thank goodness (AB) that there are so many good hearts here. That was what was so impressive about the old Emin. Also that there seemed to be a chance to develop our mental bodies by those with a thirst for knowledge and the humility to acquire it. But here was the problem - it was not real and the truth soon got lost in the process. People forgot about the importance of being honest and nice and became like power crazed businessmen.

i have been watching George Harrison while writing and we have reached the break up of the Beatles. What similarities there have been. The love affair with the guru did not save the world sadly. It added fuel to the power trips as it usually does in westerners. George bless him has now just said the words 'save the world' and as much as I had written. Now he is singing - All things must pass - but he is a survivor. It helps to have your own cult! But you need to be nice and mean well too.

reve x

29-09-2012, 12:18 AM
Sigh......Hello all, I was a member of the EMIN for some years in Nottingham, unfortunately ( for me ) I never met Leo, but the atmosphere, presences and essences were there at times it truly was unbelievable what were able to mix with, the old ( as it is now ) cliche " of having come home " the welcome the warmth, was always there for me in every meeting I attended whether in the halls we rented and maintained or visiting other communities or with guest speakers. TOR I believe our GOC was there when the window was broken ( so full of humour ) if I remember the story correctly. We were encouraged to seek the truth or core of things our GOC advocating the visiting of other esoteric groups, the words were there, the people were there, and I made many interesting friends. But never once did I feel the warmth and essence presence offered by the EMIN ( The EMIN...The Faithful One ...It...Not YOU )
Well that's enough from me for now... Maybe I'll visit again

Pax Vobiscum

29-09-2012, 09:02 AM
Emrys 21. I do not know the dates you were in but the 'Emin' presence was replaced in my view by another way quite early on.

Politics are not an Emin thing but as they are the veil over the reality of our world they need to be drawn aside, which means dealinmg with them. Haaretz has a long depressing article today about their failure to take out Iran. Not once in it does the author even mention the word Palestinian. I suppose we could see the similarity here. I try to raise our victim situation - those hurt by the process but it is either denied or ignored. however that is how the Emin lost its innocence and eventually moved on, leaving a name but not a way.

There is no one to blame for this really. I am told Ethra does not know we are here or how to use the internet. Everyone else relating to the Template is somewhere else. I do not think they even want the Emin back. You have a faithful wife, are unfaithful and lose here. She will not come back if you pretend that is not the case nor pretend she is in some back bedroom. India does not decry the cruelty of Rama to Sita. It is the cruelty of men who arrange marriages for young girls, expect their devotion and 100% loyalty, but give them no freedom. Dowry is a wicked word and denies love. As for the ancient custom of a wife being thrown on her husband's funeral pyre, that is Sita too. How can we save her?

This is a snippet from the article where the author almost makes the connection but the whole thing is a curtain drawn across the real problem in that country. Concentration camps, Child Abuse, Apartheid and Institutional Blindness and Bullying. To discuss the Iranian problem without mentioning this is 'politics' or 'religion' but far from truth and 'heartless'.

Thus, Benjamin Netanyahu’s great contribution to the struggle against the Iranian nuclear project was to inject attentiveness. In contrast to many others, Bibi understood Iran, internalized Iran and was totally focused on Iran. From the day he entered the Prime Minister’s Bureau it was clear that the mission of his life was to thwart Iranian nuclearization. With that end in mind, he formed the odd coalition with Ehud Barak. To block the Iranian nuclear project he capitulated to the ultra-Orthodox, neglected the economy and ignored social problems. To block the Iranian nuclear project, he created an Israeli military option in which vast financial resources were invested. To block the Iranian nuclear project, he made sophisticated use of the military option.

Indeed, during 2011 and at the beginning of 2012 the Netanyahu strategy produced impressive results. After long years of do-nothingness, the Iranian issue rose to the top of the global agenda. The West woke up. The United States promised to prevent a nuclear Iran and prepared a military capability which can actualize that commitment. Europe imposed harsh sanctions on Iran. Not for fear of Ahmadinejad, but for fear that Netanyahu would strike at Ahmadinejad the international community started to place obstacles in the way of the Iranian president.

However, at a certain point something went awry. Netanyahu went too far and overdid the pressure. He did not try to persuade the West but only threatened the West. He did not make the necessary political concessions to accord Israel international legitimacy. He did not make the required political moves to accord his government domestic legitimacy. Even as he engaged in brinkmanship vis-a-vis Iran, he also engaged in brinkmanship vis-a-vis the United States, the Israeli security establishment and local public opinion. Suddenly, therefore, the tables were turned. Instead of Iran being perceived as an evil power undermining the world order, Israel began to be perceived as a crazy state threatening world peace

reve x

29-09-2012, 11:40 AM
Leo was a young man in India and like many before and since brought some of it back. Today there are at least 4 million saddhus. The word means good man, sadhvi - good woman. Not that it is always true. There are many frauds, some starting and some very genuine. There are also some hundreds of westerners.

It starts by changing your name! In fact it starts by meeting a guru who will do that and give you a mantra. After serving this one for some years it may then be possible to become more independent and follow any of the extraordinary ‘ways’. there are those who live in cemeteries and eat human flesh. Those who are fakirs, perhaps standing on one leg for many years, or living in silence. Some follow Shiva, others Vishnu or Shakti. Ot is certainly an ascetic life for all.

They have a curious legal status - they are dead. Part of this way is sometimes attending your own funeral. It is a life of renunciation and in almost every case dedicated to attaining liberation.

Among these men and women are the great spiritualists. Healers and also cursers. An early dip in icy water usually starts the day.

India is not alone in having ascetics. They are the hermits, the monks and nuns found in many countries. But one thing is common - they are no longer their old selves. Their lives are not crafted around being comfortable and they have a single aim in sight. I can only speak of my experience but it is that the ‘way’ is not comfortable at all except in the knowledge that you are treading a well worn path to being at one with Creation. That may involve losing oneself but it might be seen as finding one self.

It would take a lifetime to sort out the genuine from the fraud, so finding the right guru (who will benefit greatly from having a personal servant) is hard in the extreme. But the day that your guru behaves in a way that you instinctively know is fraudulent ( lies for example, curses someone, kills) it is probably too late.

Every 3 years the saddhus all get together, and of course many others join in the largest religious event on the planet. Leo suggested that we did not need to adopt this life style. But one cannot exactly pick the cherries and leave the tree. If I am right, Leo has many regrets, not about his own way but about those disciples he took and their ways.

But at present this is about spiritualism and here is a mass of clairvoyance, living with ‘ghosts, departed masters and nature spirits.

Reve x

29-09-2012, 02:49 PM
Hi Emrys, nice to hear from you. I visited Nottingham a few times and knew your GOC pretty well. I'm glad you mentioned the humour. It was one of the distinguishing elements of the Emin, for me. Often very self-deprecating, full of warmth . . . not the kind of humour you would find in a society full of brainwashed zombies (which of course the Emin has been accused of producing).

29-09-2012, 07:06 PM
If you have ever read any of the vast number of works relating to the ego, ‘who am I?’ and so on you will know how much importance is ascribed to knowing oneself yet rising above this. It does not make much sense especially when passed on by those who did not understand it either. In the case of Sri Ramana it was encountering death that made him realise he was not his body. Spiritualism starts here. ‘You’ cannot be clairvoyant. It is an art of something else within, some Buddhists say the soul.

Buddha would say that if you wish to be clairvoyant that is a bad reason. It is not to do with who ‘you’ are or what ‘you‘ want. We may as well start with the eastern view on this as so much is written:

“According to Buddhist teachings, there are five types of clairvoyance. Actually, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of types of clairvoyance, but in Buddhism, we typically consider only five of these.

The five types of clairvoyance are usually summarized as 1) clairvoyance of divine eye, 2) clairvoyance of divine ear, 3) clairvoyance of knowing others' minds, 4) clairvoyance of knowing previous lives, and 5) clairvoyance of miraculous powers.

With the first of these, one is able to see the experiences of those far away. With the second, one is able to hear those far away. Generally speaking, clairvoyance of miraculous powers is the ability to manifest animate and inanimate objects. I think the others should be self-explanatory.”

Well another way of putting this is that there are clairvoyant dreams, knowing, communications, what is called clairaudience, seeing, mind reading etc. They are all different but get bracketed together. Joseph Benjamin gave demonstrations of clairaudience when communicating with people who had passed away. But my dad dreaming of a race horse that wins is another form. I suppose the Emin would say they belong to different centres. Those practising these arts can be quite suspicious of those they do not practise. In the 80’s my ‘school of clairvoyance’ was a manual with simple exercises and knowing to develop the arts, not at all emin may I say. I was certainly not the first to try to help others do this but would point out that those who wished to study it were soon disappointed. When you want to develop such an art, that desire is the first casualty. Most people are unable to believe that is possible but almost everyone has come across examples. Many want to know how it is possible and that is a better attitude.

“In the Pali Canon, the higher knowledges are often enumerated in a group of six or of three types of knowledge.
The six types of higher knowledges (chalabhiññā) are:
"Higher powers" (iddhi-vidhā), such as walking on water and through walls;
"Divine ear" (dibba-sota), that is, clairaudience;
"Mind-penetrating knowledge" (ceto-pariya-ñāṇa), that is, telepathy;
"Remember one's former abodes" (pubbe-nivāsanussati), that is, recalling ones own past lives;
"Divine eye" (dibba-cakkhu), that is, knowing others' karmic destinations; and,
"Extinction of mental intoxicants" (āsavakkhaya), upon which arahantship follows.
The attainment of these six higher powers is mentioned in a number of discourses, most famously the "Fruits of Contemplative Life Discourse" (Samaññaphala Sutta, DN 2). The first five powers are obtained through meditative concentration (samadhi) while the sixth is obtained through insight (vipassana). The sixth type is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, which is the end of all suffering and destruction of all ignorance.
Similarly, the three knowledges or wisdoms (tevijja or tivijja) are:
"Remember one's former abodes" (pubbe-nivāsanussati);
"Divine eye" (dibba-cakkhu); and,
"Extinction of mental intoxicants" (āsavakkhaya).
The three knowledges are mentioned in numerous discourses including the Maha-Saccaka Sutta (MN 36) in which the Buddha describes obtaining each of these three knowledges on the first, second and third watches respectively of the night of his enlightenment. These forms of knowledge typically are listed as arising after the attainment of the fourth jhana.
While such powers are considered to be indicative of spiritual progress, Buddhism cautions against their indulgence or exhibition since such could divert one from the true path of obtaining suffering's release”

As you can see Buddha sees these as a product of enlightenment rather than a means to it. The following is a fairly classic understanding of natural clairvoyance and unnatural clairvoyance which runs through all of this.

Just like any other natural human ability, different people display differing abilities towards learning and/or spontaneously displaying Siddhis with Karma often playing a primary role. Some people are born with Siddhis that they exercise without being aware that their particular psychic gift is unusual. In such cases, it may come as a traumatic event to the individual when they learn that their ability is not common and that they are considered a misfit by other people not possessing similar abilities.
Another means to trigger Siddhis also mentioned in Patanjali's sutra, albeit in an unexpected and uncontrolled manner, is by the use of certain drugs. For example, certain hallucinogenic drugs an herbs such as LSD, mescaline, peyote and others. However, UNLESS used under the auspices of experienced Spiritual Guides similar to Native American rituals that use Sacred Datura or the Mazatec Velada Ceremony they can stimulate siddhis in an uncontrolled fashion and quite possibly lead to an internal mental environment that causes great psychological trauma. Regarding potential outcomes through the use of drugs, in the opening quote of AUSHADHIS: Awakening and the Power of Siddhis Through Herbs the following is found:
In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, Chapter IV, verse 1 it is stated that the supernormal perceptual powers of Siddhis CAN be reached through the use of certain herbs, replicating on the short term a mind-strength ability and potential execution of powers similar to or equal to that of a person versed in Siddhis garnered via the highest levels of Spiritual Attainment.
In other cases, deep meditative methods actively develop Siddhis. In addition to birth and Karma Patanjali states the power of Siddhis can come about through the use of mantras, through the practicing of austerities and/or Samadhi, especially so Access Concentration (Samprajana Samadhi). According to occult theory, this is the rational and desirable way to go about achieving Siddhis.”

The word siddhi is a collective term. But all that these pastes are intended to show is how spiritualism (part of clairvoyance) fits in with eastern philosophies. Leo and the Emin did not devote much time to the subject but as I have been asked to go into it by him and that in itself is unbelievable let us see how the east deals with the sceptics and explains how come so many sadhus develop these uncanny abilities, bearing in mind many are charlatans and do not.

“Siddhi (Devanagari सिद्धि; IAST: siddhi; Tibetan: དངོས་གྲུབ, Wylie: dngos grub) is a Sanskrit noun that can be translated as "perfection", "accomplishment", "attainment", or "success". The term is first attested in the Mahabharata. In the Pancatantra, a siddhi may be any unusual skill or faculty or capability. As a term in the Manusmriti, it refers to the settlement of a debt.
In the Samkhya Karika and Tattva Samasa, and hence in Tantric Buddhism, it specifically refers to the acquisition of supernatural powers by psychic or magical means or the supposed faculty so acquired. These powers include items such as clairvoyance, levitation, bilocation, becoming as small as an atom, materialization, having access to memories from past lives, etc. The term is also used in this sense in the Sarva-darśana-saṃgraha of Madhvacharya (1238–1317).
In Patanjali's Yoga Sutras IV.1 it is stated (rendered in IAST):
janma auṣadhi mantra tapaḥ samādhijāḥ siddhayaḥ
where janma ("birth"), auṣadhi ("medicinal plant, herb, drug, incense, elixir"), mantra ("incantation, charm, spell"), tapaḥ ("heat, burning, shining, as ascetic devotional practice, burning desire to reach perfection, that which burns all impurities"), samādhi ("profound meditation, total absorption"), jāḥ ("born") and siddhayaḥ ("perfections, accomplishments, fulfillments, attainments") are rendered in English by Iyengar (1966, 2002: p. 246) thus:
Accomplishments may be attained through birth, the use of herbs, incantations, self-discipline or samadhi.

Ten secondary siddhis
In the Bhagavata Purana, Lord Krishna describes the ten secondary siddhis as:
anūrmi-mattvam: Being undisturbed by hunger, thirst, and other bodily disturbances
dūra-śravaṇa: Hearing things far away
dūra-darśanam: Seeing things far away
manaḥ-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation/astral projection)
kāma-rūpam: Assuming any form desired
para-kāya praveśanam: Entering the bodies of others
sva-chanda mṛtyuh: Dying when one desires
devānām saha krīḍā anudarśanam: Witnessing and participating in the pastimes of the gods
yathā sańkalpa saḿsiddhiḥ: Perfect accomplishment of one's determination
ājñā apratihatā gatiḥ: Orders or commands being unimpeded [6]
Hindu gods associated with gaining siddhi
In Hinduism, both Ganesha and Hanuman possess the eight supernatural powers (ashtamahasiddhis) and can give one access to Ashta Siddhis.

Do not get upset about the levitation, walking on water etc. These are astral things and projections. Jimson weed or datura allows some to do some of this. They can find themselves out of their bodies looking back at themselves. It is a dangerous drug and Carlos Castaneda has much to answer for. Two brothers from my home town hanged themselves in their family home about ten years apart and both had been playing with datura. A much safer way is to try flying when you are dreaming, but make sure you are. LSD had a few casualties in the 60’s and 70’s of those who thought they could fly and jumped out of windows. I know one person who survived with broken feet. Again it has much to do with why you want to do this. Spying on others is a fairly usual reason and therefore it does not happen or a hefty price is attached.

My childhood clairvoyance was mixed. Spirits were always around me but my brother and I used to try to ’guess’ things about to happen, what each other were thinking of when in bed, and my sister, dad and I dreamed. I also think having a hearing disability had something to do with it. In those days it was thought that people born on Halloween had the ability to see through people. We had a ’witch’ in the village - a lovely old lady with trunks full of Victorian dresses. But from a young age people would make curious comments to me, which I realise was just a form of recognition. It is not an ‘art’ many wish to discuss as it gets them into trouble. Looking back through the thread you can see that I have attracted great hostility because of this. That is a classic reaction as people see it as being something to do with wanting power. It is not but that is why they would want it. When I saw my healer last week he described it as a blessing, but it has the curse of Cassandra attached to it. That curse was always to tell the truth, never to be believed.

This is all to do with the Emin Ipinion work, but most could not see the spirits they were summoning. I remember Leo once mentioning that he and Ruth had parked the car, walked away and she ‘saw’ a green car. When they got back there was green paint and a scratch on their car. That is the sort of thing that happens all the time in this house. It is not really something that you need unless you can use it for the ‘work’ which is exactly what I need it for. When Leo made himself ‘available’ a few months ago and then withdrew the offer, he was coming at it another way. He is a master and was going to help those who wanted to meet up with him. But it did not work and this also attracted hostility. I do tell him as I can often see what will happen but bless the man he is ever hopeful that those here have risen above animosity. I am sure many of you dream of him, think of him and do communicate but no one is saying that here are they? No wonder. He is very disappointed that there are so many here who are angry with me as am I.

Reve x

30-09-2012, 09:26 AM
Sigh......Hello all, I was a member of the EMIN for some years in Nottingham, unfortunately ( for me ) I never met Leo, but the atmosphere, presences and essences were there at times it truly was unbelievable what were able to mix with, the old ( as it is now ) cliche " of having come home " the welcome the warmth, was always there for me in every meeting I attended whether in the halls we rented and maintained or visiting other communities or with guest speakers. TOR I believe our GOC was there when the window was broken ( so full of humour ) if I remember the story correctly. We were encouraged to seek the truth or core of things our GOC advocating the visiting of other esoteric groups, the words were there, the people were there, and I made many interesting friends. But never once did I feel the warmth and essence presence offered by the EMIN ( The EMIN...The Faithful One ...It...Not YOU )
Well that's enough from me for now... Maybe I'll visit again

Pax VobiscumIt's so nice to hear a familiar voice in the wilderness, someone else moved by the Emin. It's nearly 30 years since I was last in Putney, but those feelings of warmth and homeliness never leave you. You don't have to say much to convey that essence. If it's in you it will show no matter how little you say. Internet is scarce here, so I can't say much more. Again, nice to hear from you. Nvwadohiyada, Rainbow.

30-09-2012, 11:52 AM
This is a nice site on Zen. That is to say nice and simple which is the core of Zen Buddhism. Less work on scriptures is their way.

“In the words of Alan Watts, a British philosopher and writer:
"Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes.
Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes."

Zen Teachings & Beliefs
All sentient beings have Buddha-nature.
Knowledge can be acquired from all aspects of life.
Such knowledge helps to achieve enlightenment.
The six paramitas (perfections) are the six principles of enlightened living. They are:
Dana paramita: unattached generosity, boundless openness. Open heart, mind and hand.
Sila paramita: virtue, morality.
Shanti paramita: patience, tolerance, acceptance, endurance.
Virya paramita: energy, diligence, courage, enthusiasm, effort.
Dhyana paramita: meditation, absorption, concentration, contemplation.
Prajna: transcendental wisdom.
Meditation and mindfulness help in achieving new insights which leads to enlightenment.
The experiencing of mu (or 'wu', the lack pf presence, emptiness) leads to satori (spiritual awakening)
Zen Practices
The goal of Zen practice is to discover one's Buddha-nature. Practicing with others is seen as an important part.
Along the lines of spirituality in peeling potatoes, many Zen techniques are quite unconventional in comparison to what Westerners commonly perceive as spiritual practices.
Here are a few examples:
Flower arranging
Haiku poetry
Maintenance of Zen gardens
The core of Zen practice is the sitting meditation called Zazen (Japanese).
Sesshin, which literally means 'gathering the mind', refers to intensive group meditation in a Zen monastery.
Another famous Zen tradition is Koan (short stories, dialogues or questions), usually practiced during Zazen, or throughout daily life.
Katsu is a loud belly shout, which is today not such a common practice, but it belongs to the Zen heritage through various anecdotes.
"Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water."
Zen proverb”

What I wanted to look at was this ‘emptiness’ thing - wu or wa. And ‘satori’ (‘seeing into one’s true nature/enlightenment/Buddha hood).

The void comes first. Meditation has a lot to do with uncluttering the mind. When it is truly empty one can then view the spiritual in a detached way without all the preconditions that we carry. If we want a clairvoyant discussion with an ancient spirit what will cause a problem is ‘putting words in the master’s mouth’. It is very difficult.

Ear plugs may help in fact. At night I hear nothing and it is like being wrapped in cotton wool as far as I am concerned. I love to take my hearing aids out and drift to silence. Some deaf people suffer with tinnitus, a constant noise, which is very distressing. The jungle is full of noise and our streets are too. But this is only part of it.

Darkness is another void. However we have the habit of filling it with our imaginations so that it is rare for us to actually witness nothing.

Sensing is hardly ever on hold. We do not normally notice our breathing and heart beats but when approaching the void they become very noticeable. So does the itch on our leg.

But when we achieve a distance from all of these sounds, sights, and feelings we may be in a position that is much sought after by the ascetic although it amounts to nothing. What it must be like before anything is created, or when we are dead. In this state much is possible but sleep is just round the corner too. What we are looking for is more of a trance like state achieved without drugs.

Because what we may hear, see and feel is so subtle it really does not exist. It is a figment. The Zen masters are experts in this type of meditation where one might hear a flower stretch and yawn.

I will be back later today and hope all are well

Reve x

30-09-2012, 05:35 PM
There is an ancient tale in the Bible. God was angry with Israel and its king Ahab and decided to teach them a lesson. This is what He did:

1 Kings 22

“ 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." 24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. "Which way did the spirit from the LORD go when he went from me to speak to you?" he asked. 25 Micaiah replied, "You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room."

a commentary on this is:

“ The desire to hear what we want to hear is very strong in the flesh. This is why we need to die to self. “ http://www.seekfind.net/1_Kings_22_20_25_False_Prophets_and_the_Need_for_D iscernment.html

Things do not change!

1 Samuel 18.10

10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand…..

(which he intends to hurl at David)

You must have discernment about spirits that drive you to anger. You should check them out. An example presents itself here on this thread. I have mentioned a rape and complaining to Orman. I am not believed and indeed some people are very angry. Check it out - you can pm Orman - he has posted here and an email will be sent to him if you really are furious enough to want to come and see me about this. Ask whether it happened and whether I complained to him. Otherwise be at peace my friends. If you are made angry the chances are that an evil spirit is provoking you. If it is the child being abused by her step father and you are enraged that I mention this here because it is a lie, ask the Emin whether Reve really was a witness for Orion in this matter. If you are sure I was kicked out of the Emin and are angry that I dare to write here, ask them about that. You have to check things out before you hurl your spear or encourage others to do so. Please do not call me a liar without checking the facts because I lie not.

In the present conflict all that is needed is to ask Iran if they will stop uranium enrichment if Israel vacates the West Bank. I assure you bad spirits are testifying everywhere in this world either because ‘God’ is angry at what is being done in his name to innocents, or because the angels want a war. Or because men who will gain from selling weaponry want a war. Or because men who want control of oil and the Hormuz Straits want a war. So the words of liars are printed. Remember what they promised about Iraq? Bad spirits will do that.

We all need to develop our ability to discern the truth and investigate such matters honestly, exhaustively and properly even if we can see and hear spirits. If not the guilt is ours alone. The story that Job was tested to within inches of his death to see if he would blame God has its roots in the very stern afterlife inquest where we testify against ourselves. Our better judgement if you like. There is no doubt it really does happen. What does not happen is that everyone goes to heaven as we are told by those selling their religions.

Reve x

30-09-2012, 07:43 PM
For then Celts and Roman, indeed the Christians too one has to look no further than Halloween. This is the Celtic Samhain when the veil between the living and the dead was able to be pierced on either side. Those thought to be possessed by evil spirits were burned and the dead who had not been accepted in the after life came put looking for a human and another chance. Midsummer’s night was a bit different but again the living and dead could mix.

It is easy to suggest that all of this is pagan nonsense, but it is universal in time and space. History of every culture is not only suggestive of it but appears to be obsessed with it. It is not the spiritual human who is dismissive but the material human and most cultures do not consider such people to be advanced.

Confucius was suspicious of spirits but did not deny their presence. He wisely considered that the human should make the world good without relying on them and had obviously seen how obsessive his culture had been. This snippet explains why perhaps:

“ The concepts the learners used were appropriated from the pre-Confucian discourse of a broad class of warriors across the North China Plain. In this discourse power and virtue ideally were one (de). The worlds of men and of spirits (gui or shen) were separate but communication between the two was possible, and so was mutual intervention. Shamans and oracles were the agents of communication, while the warriors' sacrificial rites (li) were intended to mollify the spirits and to prevent their capricious intervention in the affairs of men. Five hundred years before the time of Confucius, astrologers in the service of a particular coalition of warrior clans called Zhou had interpreted the movements of stars and planets as signs of the movement of spiritual forces in an ordered cosmos. From this they had extrapolated the overarching idea of a Mandate of Heaven (Tian Ming), which legitimated the Zhou claim to order the world under heaven (tianxia) with a clarification of the ritual duties of all the warrior clans, in accordance with their rank. At the apex of this ritual hierarchy was the head of the house of Zhou, who alone among men bore the title of king (wang), but who by the time of Confucius no longer had any real political power.
The wisdom that Confucius sought to transmit was expressed in the language of Zhou texts and embodied in the performance of the rites as codified by the original Zhou patriarchs. But in the absence of Zhou power, the wisdom of the ancients with respect to bringing peace and order to the world could only be validated by the conscience, or benevolence (ren), of especially virtuous "gentlemen" (junzi) who rejoiced in the prospect of placing duty, or righteousness (yi), above personal gain. Resisting the temptation to validate the Mandate of Heaven by appealing to revealed truth, the early Confucians held that human virtue, without reference to spiritual intervention, was both necessary and sufficient for bringing order to a world fraught with conflicts over wealth and power.” http://science.jrank.org/pages/8784/Confucianism-Confucius.html

He may have been right for his time although he lived at the same time as Lao-tse and Buddha who did not agree. Had he lived in out material world where human greed predominates and our ancestors are ignored he might have felt different.

Do our ancestors have any rights? They have had their chance but do they have a right to control their families in the way that the patriarchs did ? The thing about ancestor respect (worship is too strong a word really) is that they know us, they know life and they also know death and the after life. Quite a qualification for a consultant. If you think about it you must accept that Leo now (if you believe in after life as he did) knows more than he did when he was alive, knows what mistakes he made and has an idea of how to correct them given a chance. We could say that he has had his chance but it is his reputation that is on the line when we act in his name, using the knowledge he imparted to us. Whether he would want to contact us now is something you can answer but I am sure even when he was alive he thought it would be possible. If you remember him saying otherwise please let us know. I do not like being in this situation at all as there is no one here who really believes me when I say that he has asked me to do certain things for him. I really did not need to bare my soul, make a fool of myself and bring wrath down on me and doubt if anyone reading would have wanted to either. But if he had appeared to you beyond your doubt and asked what would you have done? Then having failed by normal means and been directed here would you have ignored him?

I am just so surprised as you cannot be the men and women who were in the Emin with me. When we talked about such things we were clear where our duty and desire lay. Being different to ‘life’ was not a problem. Being angry to the point of violence? I hope Leo and my dad are right to be getting me to dissect this very difficult subject of spiritualism. I do not want to leap from a frying pan to a worse situation but do seem to be on my own. How I long for Orman and his peers to come and lighten my load even though it has been suggested that he must be disgusted by me.

Reve x

01-10-2012, 12:06 PM
This is all over the world but my experience is of the small churches, many not more than elegant tin shacks, dotted around North London and usually having pretty gardens which are a haven from what is around them. They are less well attended these days even though TV has people like Colin Fry and his 6ixth Sense watched by millions. Most date from the early 20th century in the UK.

They have services which are very simple - a few prayers and hymns followed usually by the mediums. The original idea of these displays of mediumship were to convince people of the after life and the need to take care of it by behaving well in this life. Joseph Benjamin gave his displays in a hall in North London much like the Emin and told me he was a 'showman of God'.

The mediums often start by announcig the arrival of a spirit with a message for someone in the congregation. Once it is established who that is there is a little message passing and this usually includes a bit of evidence. Thus you are left with 'how could he have known Arthur was married to a Helen if Arthur was not here telling him'.

Personally I find it difficult to sit through although the mediums usually appear genuine and something spiritual is definitely happening in a safe environment. Perhaps it was a year or two after my dad died that we went to such a service in Camden. i wanted to see how they worked for something i was writing at the time. As soon as the hymns and prayers had finished the medium announced that a tall man called John was there. I did not respond although this could well have been my father, but wanted more from the medium. Had he said he was a priest or married to Maline etc I would have done. John is about the most common name. But the moment passed and he moved onto someone else. i was not concerned as my father was hardly ever off the line in those days.

Both mediums working that night were men and seemed to have a kind of nervous tick, one had a wierd twisting of his head with a mangled facial expression before he contacted the spirits. This is quite common but whether they use it as a link is hard to say. I did not like to ask him. Sportsmen often have a gesture when they are successful which is designed to link all their successes in the hope of priming the pump.

I appreciate the work that these people do but also have a few concerns. Mind readers can do similar things, and stage conjurors with plants in the audience etc. What I am certain of is that spirit communication is not only possible but widely practised.

Back in my what seems now to have been my youth I had a shop in Islington and sold many lovely crafts. Egyptian jewelery, pottery, hand made shoes, 3d wooden paintings called jig saws, even Mum's embroidery. I also sold Indian marquetry, or inlay, made by an ancient and wonderful man. He worked in Bangalore and had been born very close to where my father was born - Coonoor. They were about the same age. He used the most wonderful woods - rosewood, boxwood, sandalwood etc and was famous in that world. When he came over to give some lectures in Germany he stayed with me and we discussed many things, mostly esoteric. He had made me a present which sadly is not in the pristine condition it was after many travels with me. It is not a saddhu exactly, he told me it was me sitting smoking cannabis in my cave. Well i did do that in those days and he also had in his youth. What he 'saw' in me was probably what he would have seen in many Emins. I had been in the Emin perhaps five years before. We were so lucky that we could talk on a level with such people. I wrote here recently that the Emin did not last very long in my opinion and that ability was part of what I meant. When it became the Eminent Way, the Eagle Endeavour, the Church of the Emin Coils etc it seemed to have lost that wonderful introduction to the occult and concentrated on stuff you could not discuss with anyone without appearing quite mad. Those who had been on the hippy trail had moved on and the members were not very interested in saddhus. But i do believe that it was this Indian experience that started Leo on his way, rather that a tree on Hampstead Heath. Anyway that is my new avatar. If you are wondering where Loch Lomond has gone, it has joined that Old Welsh Way.

reve x