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27-10-2011, 12:43 PM
When we say amen at the end of our prayers who exactly is that? I think the answer is as hidden as the word which means hidden. Bear in mind the rivalry between Jacob and Esau. One portrayed as sharp the other not so, as with Pro and Epimetheus. It is the last laugh, which is always over a hidden matter. A karmic victory. A lot of work went into those cults with their many sects and different views and practices. They all say amen. If you ask why they will tell you it means 'so be it'. They are right. One of us, or all olf collectively, have stolen all those prayers. Which leads to the next problem. Almost all of them were requests for help and forgiveness. They are not all worship, blessed art thou, thanks etc. They are very expensive to us. Anyone want to put their hand up on this one?

27-10-2011, 05:54 PM
google news Press Association newsflash today:

Scientists have shown how 'lucid' dreamers use specific parts of their brain to control their actions in dreams

they are suddenly keen to be able to read our dreams for us. The experiment asks lucid dreamers to do things with their left and right hands etc so that they can map the brain activity. Soon ymns will be redundant here. Reading dreams was part of the job.

reve x

no clouds/faces melted? any emin dreams then?

27-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Taken from Egyptian Gods and Goddesses - George Hart, (British Museum) Routledge 1986 selected bits

Yah is the Moon God associated with the new crescent moon, ibis and falcon.

Yamm is the god of the sea

Underworld deities - 741 shown on antechamber to tomb of Thothmosis 111, origin unknown, all have curious epithets
Include the gate deities (we already mentioned some with unpleasant names)
Gate 1 Sia in the prow of the sun boat urges the snake to open the gate
Gate 3 The serpent ‘Stinger’…guards ‘lake of life’ ....forbidden access....here the god Re breathes
Gate 7 The shining One four hawk head, four human heads…relate mysterious appearance of Re.
Gate 8 Fire-breathing snake who burns up enemies of Osiris
Gate 9 On the back of a hawk-headed lion stand Horus and Seth
Gate 10 Apophis bound, Re can get safely past
Gate 12 Isis and Nepthys rear up as serpents

Then there are the 21 portals (ie tarot)
1 Mistress of Trembling
2 Mistress of the Sky
6 Mistress of Darkness
15 Great of Valour
16 Dread

Each with their own god, so 18 is Lover of heat - guarded by ‘Anointed’

19. Is a ‘nameless’ goddess ‘She who Foretells mornings throughout her Life-span, possessor of the Writings of Thoth.

20 is also ‘nameless’ -'dweller within the Cavern of her Lord’

But there are also Am-Heh a threatening underworld god whose name means ‘Devourer of Millions’. He dwells in the lake of fire…an appetite for sacrifices. Only Atum can fend off Am-Heh

Ammut- Underworld goddess ‘Devouress of the Dead’..led wicked lives....called the ‘Great of Death’

Aken custodian of the ferryboat to the Underworld, has to be woken by the ferryman Mahaf to provide the boat for travel on celestial waters

Aker an earth god..juncture East Them then) and West (us now).
Opens gate for the solar boat. Imprisons Apophis. He pluralises into other gods, the Akeru. Pyramid texts say the akeru are not allowed to seize the monarch…(but everyone else is scared stiff of them)... primeval deities

Then there are the cavern deities:
cavern 1. snake guardians of the Silent Region
2. flame breathing sname sesy, primeval gods called Nariu
3. nehebu-Kau encircling 7 cat-fish headed gods led by Osiris
4. great one who is on his belly
5. Nut and ithyphallic Osiris
8. those who raise their superiors to the sky
9. Gods of the Primeval Deep

reve: I thought I would put this in as it is from the most ancient time of Egypt and before. But it is so detailed, unremarked upon and prophetic. Does it not remind one a bit of a school with classrooms.

No apparently not. It is not so much understandinmg it as seeing where it came from. Descriptions and translations do not help when people refer to their teachers as 'an old dragon' say.

Busy night ahead.

Reve x

27-10-2011, 07:29 PM
snippet from George Hart again (a real Egyptologist)

The Greek writer Plutarch states that Horus is called Min, a name which he interprets as 'that which is seen' - an explanation possibly going back to an original Egyptian pun involving the name of Min and the verb 'to see' used in the past tense....Isis plays the role of Min's consort with Horus the child completing the divine family.... the emblem on a standard on a macehead from Hierokonpolis indicates that Min is counted among the allies of King Scorpion (reve: who is Stinger?) just prior to the lasting unification of Upper and Lower Egypt around 3000BC

27-10-2011, 09:29 PM
Isaiah is a lovely prophet. He goes so far as to say that to 'God' killing a bull is as bad as killing a man. He is not advocating sacrifice. In Chapter 7 he comes up with an idea to get King Ahaz to listen to him. Ask me for a sign from Yahweh, he says. But Ahaz is not falling for this and declines to ask for one saying he does not doubt Yahweh can do this. So Isaiah enraged says he will give him a sign anyway, predicting an 'almah' or young woman (of court? he was pointing at one) would have a child called Immanuel (usually interpreted as god with us rather than Emin Leo) who could refuse evil and choose the good and lived on this milk and honey, which is something that most of us are fond of, and I have got up in the night to have it. But it is to do with the requirements of priesthood, vegetarianism & abstinence for a while, but not necessarily a lifetime.

So what if you are not? You wont be conscious of it I am sorry to say. Get a lucid dreaming box instead. a month will do and avoiding dead animals. That is the taboo. Death/Defile/evil.

I wonder if a single carnivore here has been to the local abattoir. Then your eyes would open. And why we are like TRex really, but hide it out of sight. Lovely creatures sensing death, pushed in, lightly stunned and bled while still alive. They have to do that you see. Then skinned and cut up in chunks, wrapped and stamped for you. Milk and honey for me. The promised land is milk and honey by the way.

Mistranslation of almah over the ages meant she is a virgin. In India an alma looks after babies, never their own. Virigin birth is such a silly thing to found your religion on isn't it. But an ymn notices the first two letters of virgin are Vi. Then we think Immanuel and Orman are not that far apart. This is a sign from Yahweh says Isaiah, but it is hard to see what the sign is supposed to be. I am serious. This really is the most likely explanation for Isaiah's dream. And it started the whole Christian thing. Because 500 years later someone said they are this Immanuel in Isaiah AND the Son of Man in Enoch. But Isaiah was dreaming of Ruth, Leo and the baby of the family Orman, perhaps. All these things taken on their own mean nothing, but there are so mny of them. What a shame Orman is so quiet on this. The Emin/ymn is the focal point but it became a person cult. Sun, Moon and Earth have many ymns they can use. But only a few days a week.

reve x

reve x

27-10-2011, 10:26 PM
Bloody hell! You don't half go on....I only clicked on here to see if there was an answer to my inquiry about the Emin bloke in Denver!!

By the way, no suicide bombers were involved in the London tube bombings. More than likely it was your beloved secret services who did it.

27-10-2011, 10:35 PM
big hand for

wikiThe thenar eminence (from the Greek "θέναρ" - thenar, "palm of the hand"[1] and the Latin word "eminentia", meaning projection,[2]) refers to the group of muscles on the palm of the human hand at the base of the thumb. The skin overlying this region is the area stimulated when trying to elicit a palmomental reflex

Also called the Mound of Venus

Venus in your Hand
The mound of Venus is an indicator of our ability to love as well as our capacity for playfulness. It indicates the strength and energy of our physical appetites, our zest for life. A normal mound of Venus suggests warmth and a balanced attitude toward the physical manifestations of love.
An excessively large mount of Venus is an indicator of someone who lets their desires run the show. Appetites and emotions may be exaggerated and this person can be crude and brutish. An underdeveloped mound of Venus implies insecurity or lack of zest for life. It is often accompanied by a life line that runs closely around the thumb.http://www.astropalmistry.com/venus.html

brings back memories of the 'way line' and testing someone's soul energy by pressing their hands. Oh yes and being told it is sadly lacking by the one you love.

There was a lovely crystal hand in the BM recently nexy to John Dee's crystal ball, aztec mirror and gold disc. These hands are often bronze but this one was special and very close to two other very interesting oracular crystal seeing devices. I have not uploaded any more yet but will try to.

wiki: associated with the cult of the god Sabazius. His cult originated in Phrygia or Thrace and later became popular in the Roman Empire. The Romans associated him with Dionysus, the god of wine.

Scholars believe that 'hands of Sabazius' were placed in shrines or carried on poles in religious processions. Often they are decorated with images such as a serpent, cymbal, pine cone and frog, which are assumed to be religious.

I almost forgot - the Latin word eminere meaning to stick out or project. Eminente - projection. Yes it has a lot to do with projection, also invitation and vocation, or 'calling upon'.

reve x

27-10-2011, 11:12 PM
Tyler it must be Beta. Didn't he go on? I always thought that was what happened. Somnone says something nexgt thing it is after midnight and the floor is covered in chalk and dictionaries.

Personally I detest violence on all sides and wish we could all be hippies and get on with it. But they never let you do that, live what you think is a good and holy life. The fight between countries and secret services is beyond any reckoning, quite beyond protocols now and comprehension. They are so involved that anyone who does anything might be doing it for them, or the opposition. Blow your own country up is the conspiracy theory of choice but is that sponsored by them? It might be right, or blow their country up and suggest they did it, or even think further down the line, do it yourself dont tell the boss and blame them. Now if it was delivering a box of Milk Tray mysteriously it wouln't worry us (a bit more actually) the same as a bomb at a bus station or market. They are all involved really because it is tit for tat and we are in the middle trying to pacify both naughty children who need separate rooms age 7 or one wont make the teens.

It is alleged that grown and angry men sexually assaulted Gaddhafi with a bayonet at the end. We can all understand their anger as they had been fighting him and losing friends for months. It does not explain the world's anger. Now I can understand why someone brought it to an end by shooting him through the head. A mercy killing perhaps. Probably we are all responsible individually, nationally and collectively. 'They' will use that single televised incident to declare that humanity cannot be allowed to continue. That is where we really are. Bin Laden killed live on TV was bad enough. These are the things people want to see their leaders doing now. Our Colisseum. It is said to be finished but I thought we could show them at least one place, even if it is virtual, with conscience rather than laws, kindness and dedication its virtues. This is not something the world wants, it seems to want a violent end and will probably get what it wants. But the gods of the underworld are a resourceful if a sorrowful lot. They expect it to be impossible before it happens as all thought there was a chance. So things are looking good if bleak right now and we know the outcome. Storms ahead followed by a new age.

reve x

Tyler you are very ymnly. Again I am defeated by few words. I will have a word with the umpire who is a good friend.

28-10-2011, 12:47 AM
Andjety the first Egyptian king to carry a Crook (meat eater) and Flail (vegetarian) like Tutankhamun.
representing Upper & Lower Egypt
Seth inheriting from Abel and Cain
priest/ess & layman/woman
Bedouin & Fellahin
Jew & Gentile
Jacob & Esau
John the baptist (honey) & Jesus (lamb stew)
Ymn/Emin & Life

etc - I know i go on

reve x

dont mention locusts they are a pest.

28-10-2011, 01:23 AM
reve x

Ravel's Bolero is often played at meetings where Armin's latest cryptic messages from Florida are read out to members who pay about $50.00 (US) a week just to belong plus other fees and "donations."

This guy Raymond Armin should donate his fortune to the millions of refuges around the planet.

28-10-2011, 08:26 AM
I remember we had to stand on one leg while it was played. I wish the Florida Emin would post a cryptic message here.



28-10-2011, 07:18 PM

29-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Without the great priest Manetho we would know much about Egypt at all.

If anyone is still her he requires a look:

[QUOTE]wiki:Manetho (or Manethon, Greek: Μανέθων, Μανέθως) was an Egyptian historian and priest from Sebennytos (ancient Egyptian: Tjebnutjer) who lived during the Ptolemaic era, approximately during the 3rd century BC. Manetho wrote the Aegyptiaca (History of Egypt). His work is of great interest to Egyptologists, and is often used as evidence for the chronology of the reigns of pharaohs.

The original Egyptian version of Manetho's name is now lost to us, but it is speculated to have meant "Gift of Thoth", "Beloved of Thoth", "Truth of Thoth", "Beloved of Neith", or "Lover of Neith". Less accepted proposals are Myinyu-heter ("Horseherd" or "Groom") and Ma'ani-Djehuti ("I have seen Thoth"). In Greek, the earliest fragments (the Carthage inscription and Flavius Josephus) write his name as Μανεθων Manethōn, so the rendering of his name here is given as Manetho (the same way that Platōn is rendered "Plato"). Other renderings in Greek include Manethōs, Manethō, Manethos, Manēthōs, Manēthōn, and even Manethōth. In Latin we find Manethon, Manethos, Manethonus, and Manetos.

Life and work
Although no sources for the dates of his life and death remain, his work is usually associated with the reigns of Ptolemy I Soter (323-283 BC)..... Although he was Egyptian and his topics dealt with Egyptian matters, he wrote solely in Greek. Other works he wrote include Against Herodotus, The Sacred Book, On Antiquity and Religion, On Festivals, On the Preparation of Kyphi, and the Digest of Physics. The astrological treatise Book of Sothis (reve: Sirius) has also been attributed to Manetho. In Aegyptiaca, he coined the term "dynasty" (Greek: dynasteia, abstractly meaning "governmental power") to represent groups of rulers with a common origin.

He was probably a priest of the sun god Ra at Heliopolis (according to Syncellus, he was the chief priest), and was also considered an authority on the cult of Sarapis (a derivation of Osiris-Apis).

AegyptiacaThe Aegyptiaca (Ancient Greek Ἀιγυπτιακά, Aigyptiaka), the "History of Egypt", was Manetho's largest work, and certainly the most important...

The problem with a close study of Manetho, despite the reliance of Egyptologists on him for their reconstructions of the Egyptian dynasties, is that not only was Aegyptiaca not preserved as a whole, it also became involved in a bitter battle between advocates of Egyptian, Jewish, and Greek histories in the form of supporting polemics. During this period, disputes raged over the "oldest" civilizations, and so Manetho's account was probably excerpted during this time for use in this argument with significant alterations.

...For the first ruler of the first Dynasty, Menes, we learn that "he was snatched and killed by a hippopotamus". The extent to which the epitome preserved Manetho's original writing is unclear, so caution must be exercised.

.. Josephus records him admitting to using "nameless oral tradition" (1.105) and "myths and legends" (1.229) into his account..

The king-list that Manetho had access to is unknown to us, but of the ...These large stelae stand in contrast to the Turin Royal Canon (like Saqqara, contemporaneous with Ramesses II), written in hieratic script. Like Manetho, it begins with the gods, and like Manetho, appears to be an epitome very similar in spirit and style to Manetho. Interestingly, the opposite side of the papyrus includes government records.... As a priest (or chief priest), he would have had access to practically all written materials in the temple.

...Egyptian Men or Meni (Son of Ra and king-list names) becomes Menes (officially, this is Pharaoh I.1 Aha—"I" represents Dynasty I, and "1" means the first king of that dynasty), while Menkauhor/Menkahor (Throne and king-list names, the Horus names is Menkhau and the Son of Ra name is "Kaiu Horkaiu[...]") is transcribed as Menkheres (V.7 Menkauhor). Others involve a slight shortening, such as A'akheperen-Re' (Throne and king-list names) becoming Khebron (XVIII.4 Thutmose II). A few more have consonants switched for unknown reasons, as in Tausret becoming Thouoris (XIX.6 Twosre/Tausret).. It may be that some pharaohs were known by names other than even just the five official ones.

...However, because of the simplicity with which Manetho transcribed long names (see above), they were preferred until original king-lists began to be uncovered, translated, and corroborated in ancient Egyptian sites. Manetho's division of dynasties, however, is still used as a basis for all Egyptian discussions.

Volume 1 begins from the earliest times, listing gods and demigods as rulers of Egypt. Stories of Isis, Osiris, Seth, or Horus might have been found here. Manetho does not transliterate either, but gives the Greek equivalents in a convention that predates him: Ptah = Hephaistos; Isis = Demeter; Thoth = Hermes; Horus = Apollo; Seth = Typhon; etc. This is one of the clues as to how syncretism developed between seemingly disparate religions.


30-10-2011, 09:53 AM
deadly silence prevails but I continue

According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme God. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed's tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon God, who had 3 daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people into Allah. Their names were Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likeness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold. (Reference Islam George Braswell Jr.)


360 deitied relates tro the 360 day lunar calendar which i mentioned previously. It is an adversary of the sun calendar 365.25 days but never mind. Al-Manat is also of interest here./ I guess most of you know these things but forgive me if I address those who do not.

Iman is the senior branch/sibling of Islam.

Emin/Life was a concept starting from changiung your name. thje origin is possibly back to the Egyptians who took their turns doing shifts at the temples and dream chambers. Many religous Indians have worked in commerce but later in life given all up for their spiritual life, which is another way of doing it.

We can look at the black stone in the Kaaba but here is some more from the site on the names:

Al-Lat which is a T at the end of the name of Allah, was represented by a square stone whose major sanctuary was in the city of Taif. In the sanctuary was a black stone in the town of Qudayd between Mecca and Medina. She was the goddess of fate, a female counterpart of Allah. Al-uzza was the goddess of east Mecca. It has been said there were human sacrifices made to her and Islamic tradition tells of a story of Mohammed’s grandfather almost sacrificing his son the father of Mohammed to her. What prevented this was his seeking counsel from a fortune teller which told him to ransom his son with one hundred camels. Muslims look to this as the will of Allah to bring Mohammed into existence. (Reference Muhammad husain haykal, Hayat mohammed)

“The name Allah, as the Qur'an itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa.” (Arthur Jeffrey, ed., Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (1958), p. 85.)......

Mecca was the place where the idol Allah was located, so the people would face in that direction when they prayed. Prior to Islam the people would pray 5 times a day facing Mecca (The Encyclopedia of Islam p.303) Prior to Islam's beginning each Arab tribe used Allah to refer to its own particular high god. This is why Hubal, the Moon god, (known by other names) was the central focus of prayer at the Kaabah and people prayed to Hubal and they used the name Allah. The crescent moon was the symbol of the moon God Allah (Hubal) and is still used as a symbol of Islam today (although they have changed the meaning to be -from Mecca to the moon Islam will spread). Today there is hardly a Muslim that knows its ancient origin. History records it as an ancient pagan fertility symbol that is found throughout the Middle East. Mohammed smashed all the idols that led the people into idolatry but the black stone was kept which Muslims continue to kiss today. This was another practice that preceded Mohammad.

Mohammed made Allah into a single being who, unlike the Bible's God who is called Father, has no Son.

Do not upset Moslems with these facts, their sis a religion of belief and that is everything. They discuss but never debate the facts if you understand the distinction. that is why Sal;ma Rushdie, a Moslem at birth, upset them so much with his book named 'satanic verses'.

I am just trying to show the Ymn influence which started these religions by dream revelation. You can find the crescent moon on their flags and above the mosques, just like Djehwty.

Unfortunately the site i am quoting is written by Christian scholars and will be argues about ad infinitum on a battlefield. This is why we have to identify the truth, not a religous current poliotically correct view.

Mecca was the place where the idol Allah was located, so the people would face in that direction when they prayed. Prior to Islam the people would pray 5 times a day facing Mecca (The Encyclopedia of Islam p.303) Prior to Islam's beginning each Arab tribe used Allah to refer to its own particular high god. This is why Hubal, the Moon god, (known by other names) was the central focus of prayer at the Kaabah and people prayed to Hubal and they used the name Allah. The crescent moon was the symbol of the moon God Allah (Hubal) and is still used as a symbol of Islam today (although they have changed the meaning to be -from Mecca to the moon Islam will spread). Today there is hardly a Muslim that knows its ancient origin. History records it as an ancient pagan fertility symbol that is found throughout the Middle East. Mohammed smashed all the idols that led the people into idolatry but the black stone was kept which Muslims continue to kiss today. This was another practice that preceded Mohammad.

Mohammed made Allah into a single being who, unlike the Bible's God who is called Father, has no Son.

The site: http://www.letusreason.org/islam6.htm

wiki includes some of the above buit if you skim thorough the section on Allah you can see it goes out of its way not to offend, or has been amended after countless complaints.

So what about the Emin? Are we discussing and debating or closed? Note how the modern day Mooslems close their eyes to their origins, are we not in danger of doing the same thing?

love honour & respect

reve x

30-10-2011, 11:26 AM
it might be just you and me logging in and out all day.....

11944 - probably just me cp!

30-10-2011, 01:00 PM
No one will accept this but from my perspective this is all about the astrological sign of 2 ymns. Hubal was the moon god and top god in the Kaaba before the time of Mohammed. Hubal's brother was Wadd:

wiki:Wadd (Arabic: ود‎)"Love, Friendship", known variously as Ilumquh, ʻAmm and Sīn, was the Minaean moon god. Snakes were believed to be sacred to Wadd. He is mentioned in the Qur'ān (71:23) as a deity of the time of the Prophet Noah.

And they say: By no means leave your gods, nor leave Wadd, nor Suwa'; nor Yaghuth, and Ya'uq and Nasr. (Qur'an 71:23)

The Temple dedicated to Wadd was demolished on the orders of Muhammad, and those who resisted the demolition were killed, in the Expedition of Khalid ibn al-Walid (2nd Dumatul Jandal)[1][2].

[edit] Sources

Hubal's 'mother' was Allat

Allāt or al-Lāt (Arabic: اللات‎) was a Pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca. She is mentioned in the Qur'an (Sura 53:19), which indicates that pre-Islamic Arabs considered her as one of the daughters of Allah along with Manāt and al-‘Uzzá.

Bas-relief of Allāt from Palmyra, shown with a palm branch and a lion
Bas-relief: Nemesis, Allāt and the dedicator. Courtesy of the Museum of Fine Arts of LyonThe shrine and temple dedicated to al-Lat in Taif,was demolished by Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, on the orders of Muhammad, during the Expedition of Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, this occurred in the same year as the Battle of Tabuk[1] (which occurred in October 630 AD.[2][3]The destruction of the idol was a demand by Muhammad before any reconciliation could take place with the citizens of Taif who were under constant attack.[4]

Especially in older sources, Allat is an alternative name of the Mesopotamian goddess of the underworld,[5][6] now usually known as Ereshkigal. She was reportedly also venerated in Carthage under the name Allatu.[7]

The goddess occurs in early Safaitic graffiti (Safaitic han-'Ilāt "the Goddess") and the Nabataeans of Petra and the people of Hatra also worshipped her, equating her with the Greek Athena and Tyche and the Roman Minerva. She is frequently called "the Great Goddess" in Greek in multi-lingual inscriptions.[8] According to Wellhausen, the Nabataeans believed al-Lāt was the mother of Hubal (and hence the mother-in-law of Manāt).

The Greek historian Herodotus, writing in the 5th century BC, considered her the equivalent of Aphrodite:

The Assyrians call Aphrodite Mylitta, the Arabians Alilat, and the Persians Mitra. In addition that diety is associated with the Indian diety Mitra (Vedic). The persian and Indian diety were developed from the proto-indo-iranian diety known as *mitra.[9]
According to Herodotus, the ancient Arabians believed in only two gods:

They believe in no other gods except Dionysus and the Heavenly Aphrodite; and they say that they wear their hair as Dionysus does his, cutting it round the head and shaving the temples. They call Dionysus, Orotalt; and Aphrodite, Alilat.[10]

Hubal was married to Manat:

Manāt (Arabic: مناة‎; also transliterated as manāh) was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca.[1] The pre-Islamic Arabs believed Manāt to be the goddess of fate. She was known by the cognate name Manawat to the Nabataeans of Petra, who equated her with the Graeco-Roman goddess Nemesis and she was considered the wife of Hubal.[2] The Qur'an confirmed that the pre-Islamic Arabs believed that some female idols were daughters of God, like Allāt, Al-‘Uzzá, and Manāt.[3] According to Grunebaum in Classical Islam, the Arabic name of Manat is the linguistic counterpart of the Hellenistic Tyche, Dahr, fateful 'Time' who snatches men away and robs their existence of purpose and value. There are also connections with Chronos of Mithraism and Zurvan mythology.[4] The Book of Idols describes her:

The most ancient of all these idols was Manāt. The Arabs used to name [their children] 'Abd-Manāt and Zayd-Manāt. Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al-Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca.The ruling tribes of al-Madinah, and other Arabs continued to worship Manat until the time of Muhammad......

The temple of Manat was raided and the idol was destroyed on the orders of Muhammad, in the Raid of Sa'd ibn Zaid al-Ashhali, in January 630 AD, 8AH, 9th month, of the Islamic Calendar. In the vicinity of al-Mushallal [6][7][8]

Hubal did not fare much better:

. There may be some foundation of truth in the story that Amr travelled in Syria and had brought back from there the cults of the goddesses ʻUzzāʼ and Manat, and had combined it with that of Hubal, the idol of the Khuza'a.[5] According to Al-Azraqi, the image was brought to Mecca "from the land of Hit in Mesopotamia". Philip K. Hitti, who relates the name Hubal to an Aramaic word for spirit, suggests that the worship of Hubal was imported to Mecca from the north of Arabia, possibly from Moab or Mesopotamia.[6] Hubal may have been the combination of Hu, meaning "spirit" or "god", and the Maob god Baal meaning "master" or "lord". Outside South Arabia, Hubal's name appears just once, in a Nabataean inscription;[7] there hbl is mentioned along with the gods Dushara (ذو الشراة) and Manawatu — the latter, as Manat, was also popular in Mecca. On the basis of such slender evidence, it has been suggested that Hubal "may actually have been a Nabataean".[8]

According to Islamic legend, record by Ibn Al-Kalbi, Muhammad's grandfather Abdul Mutallib had vowed to sacrifice one of his ten children and consulted the arrows of Hubal to find out which child he should chose. The arrows pointed to his son Abd-Allah, the father of Muhammad. According to Tabari, Abdul Mutallib later also brought the infant Muhammad before the image.[9] When Muhammad conquered Mecca in 630, he smashed the statue of Hubal along with the other 360 images at the Kaaba, and

rededicated it to Allah (who absorbed all of them apparently).

I doubt anyone can take much more Moon today. Remember to put your angelus forward an hour if the clocks are going back. Those ymns do not do such a silly thing and wont like you an hour late..wont be there I mean.

Meanwhile I read David Icke's newsletter today. It makes me realise how urgent it is to ensure that the top of the eventual command structure is a 'good' ymn. 'God' is said to come as a 'thief' (gently, I hope, removes Judah's foot from our necks) and takes it all over. There are some pretty nasty 'gods' who do this kind of thieving as you can see. I think our leaders should pass some sort of ethical test. That is what I would be raising now if it is inevitable. I dont trust anyone for the job, everyone is angry. Even I wrote to my CEO a bit upset last week over my wage cut, as I discovered he earns much more than any prime minister. That morning on TV I had endured a man earning millions say he has to as he could earn as much or more somewhere else and we need the best. Why do we listen to that rubbish on TV stations? (Because it shows them up for what they are better than any investigative journalist..). My CEO's mistake was to appoint a new director. That will either cost around 6 frontline jobs, or our paycuts will fund the new person. We can manage better without them than vice versa but they hold all the cards. (Do not be left holding all the cards is what we are playing now, not Monopoly, but they are a bit slow on this sudden gameplan change)

The problem may be the same with governments. No one on frontline pay sits in the Commons or Lords, nor really represents us. That is most of us by the way. And they borrow trillions for things they do not even discuss with us being far over our heads to determine how big our nuclear arsenal and latest warships should be. Their weakness is that people have woken up to the fact and are starting to complain in many different ways. let us hope for a peaceful transition. David is waking people up which is brillianmt. I seem to put people to sleep which is perhaps where I am more comfortable.

And the Emin? It is all of us but that may still unclear to some. We certainly did not get much say, but here we are. Say something. Suggest something. What would make it perfect for you? Maybe that is all it takes.
All the best

reve +

30-10-2011, 02:07 PM
I find it very helpful to look at these people through every possible culture to identify them. Alat is also Ereshkigal:

by Micha F. Lindemans
The Sumerian and Akkadian goddess of the underworld, sister of the sky goddess Ishtar. Together with her consort Nergal she rules the underworld, also called 'the big land', from which no-one returns. One day Nergal was sent to her from heaven with an offering of food. They fell in love with each other, and when he had to leave, she was in tears and threathened Anu that she would revive all the dead, over whom she ruled, and send them back to earth, 'so that they will outnumber the living', unless Nergal was send back to her, for ever, as a husband. Her minister Namtar had to go to heaven as her messenger, for Ereshkigal felt that she was already pregnant. At last Nergal came storming down the stairs, broke down the seven gates and burst into the goddess' palace straight into her passionate embrace, 'to wipe her tears.'
Ereshkigal is dark and violent, befitting her role as goddess of the underworld. As ruler over the shades, Ereshkigal receives the mortuary offerings made to the dead. In the Sumerian cosmogony she was carried off to the underworld after the separation of heaven and earth. She is often praised in hymns. Ereshkigal was probably once a sky-goddess.

Article "Ereshkigal" created on 03 March 1997; last modified on 10 January 1999 (Revision 2). 207 words.
© MCMXCV - MMIX Encyclopedia Mythica™. All rights reserved.

Underworld or inner world lots of people feel trapped and controlled do they not, unable to return. They want to come home. Hopefully she will be coming home soon when heaven and earth are no longer separated.

United with an 'emin' kiss.


reve x

wiki In Mesopotamian mythology, Ereshkigal (DEREŠ.KI.GAL, lit. "great lady under earth") was the goddess of Irkalla, the land of the dead or underworld. Sometimes her name is given as Irkalla, similar to the way the name Hades was used in Greek mythology for both the underworld and its ruler.

Ereshkigal was the only one who could pass judgment and give laws in her kingdom. The main temple dedicated to her was located in Kutha.[1]

The goddess Ishtar refers to Ereshkigal as her older sister in the Sumerian hymn "The Descent of Inanna" (which was also in later Babylonian myth, also called "The Descent of Ishtar"). Inanna/Ishtar's trip and return to the underworld is the most familiar of the myths concerning Ereshkigal.

PS wiki has a very different slant on it (in fact there are three more versions there): One version of the story depicts the triumph of Nergal in the following way. Once, the gods invited Ereshkigal (sometimes referred to as Allat) to a party that they had organised in Heaven. Due to her photophobia she refused, and sent a messenger, Namtar, her servant. His behaviour had infuriated Anu and Ea, and their anger was turned against his mistress. They sent Nergal to punish her. He pulled the queen by her hair from the throne, in order to decapitate her, but her prayers for mercy stopped him, and Nergal made Ereshkigal his wife.[2]

Erishkigal has at least 3 names in her name and is another composite one.

reve x

30-10-2011, 02:44 PM
Thwe origiunal story is never discussed but was called in 1858 by an Englishman, the 'satanic verses'. Unfortunately they are very much part of this tale;

] The different versions of the story are all tracable to one single narrator Muhammad b. Ka'b, who was two generations removed from biographer Ibn Ishaq. In its essential form, the story reports that Muhammad longed to convert his kinsmen and neighbors of Mecca to Islam. As he was reciting Sūra an-Najm,[3] considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20:

Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-‘Uzzá
and Manāt, the third, the other?
These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.

Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans. Discerning the meaning of "gharāniq" is difficult as it is an hapax legomenon. Commentators wrote that it meant the cranes. The Arabic word does generally mean a "crane" - appearing in the singular as ghirnīq, ghurnūq, ghirnawq and ghurnayq, and the word has cousin forms in other words for birds, including "raven, crow" and "eagle".[4]

The subtext to the event is that Muhammad was backing away from his otherwise uncompromising monotheism by saying that these goddesses were real and their intercession effective. The Meccans were overjoyed to hear this and joined Muhammad in ritual prostration at the end of the sūrah. The Muslim refugees who had fled to Abyssinia heard of the end of persecution and started to return home. Islamic tradition holds that Gabriel chastised Muhammad for adulterating the revelation, at which point [Quran 22:52] is revealed to comfort him,

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise.

Muhammad took back his words and the persecution by the Meccans resumed. Verses [Quran 53:21] were given, in which the goddesses are belittled. The passage in question, from 53:19, reads:

Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other?
Are yours the males and His the females?
That indeed were an unfair division!
They are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for which Allah hath revealed no warrant. They follow but a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. And now the guidance from their Lord hath come unto them.


A quick policy change.

reve x

30-10-2011, 04:15 PM
to the brightest star of them all on which Egypt is securely founded, and as you will see everywhere else. The brightest star, and almost the nearest. What is all the fuss about you may wonder. Toir perhaps could explain better:

wiki: Bright stars were important to the ancient Polynesians for navigation ... the declination of Sirius matches the latitude of the archipelago of Fiji at 17°S and thus passes directly over the islands each night. Sirius served as the body of a "Great Bird" constellation called Manu, with Canopus as the southern wingtip and Procyon the northern wingtip, ... Just as the appearance of Sirius in the morning sky marked summer in Greece, so it marked the chilly onset of winter for the Māori, whose name Takurua described both the star and the season. Its culmination at the winter solstice was marked by celebration in Hawaii, where it was known as Ka'ulua, "Queen of Heaven". Many other Polynesian names have been recorded, including Tau-ua in the Marquesas Islands, Rehua in New Zealand...

reve - is this that crane, phoenix, ibis bird

wiki: Sirius, known in ancient Egypt as Sopdet (Greek: Sothis), is recorded in the earliest astronomical records. During the era of the Middle Kingdom, Egyptians based their calendar on the heliacal rising of Sirius, namely the day it becomes visible just before sunrise after moving far enough away from the glare of the Sun. This occurred just before the annual flooding of the Nile and the summer solstice, after a 70-day absence from the skies. The hieroglyph for Sothis features a star and a triangle. Sothis was identified with the great goddess Isis, who formed a part of a trinity with her husband Osiris and their son Horus, while the 70-day period symbolised the passing of Isis and Osiris through the duat (Egyptian underworld).

reve: aha

The most commonly used proper name of this star comes from the Latin Sīrius, from the Ancient Greek Σείριος (Seirios, "glowing" or "scorcher"), although the Greek word itself may have been imported from elsewhere before the Archaic period, one authority suggesting a link with the Egyptian god Osiris. The name's earliest recorded use dates from the 7th century BC in Hesiod's poetic work Works and Days. Sirius has over 50 other designations and names attached to it. In Arabic it is known as الشِّعْرَى (transliteration: aš-ši‘rā or ash-shira; the leader), from which the alternate name Aschere derives. In Sanskrit it is known as Mrgavyadha "deer hunter", or Lubdhaka "hunter". As Mrgavyadha, the star represents Rudra (Shiva). In Scandinavia, the star has been known as Lokabrenna ("burning done by Loki", or "Loki's torch"). In the astrology of the Middle Ages, Sirius was a Behenian fixed star, associated with beryl and juniper. Its astrological symbol was listed by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa.

Many cultures have historically attached special significance to Sirius, particularly in relation to dogs. Indeed, it is often colloquially called the "Dog Star" as the brightest star of Canis Major, the "Great Dog" constellation.

This name may derive from the Egyptian god Anubis. The Gaza Sphinx, which Robert Temple in his book "The Sphinx Mystery" has documented is actually a dog and not a lion, had originally the head of Anubis. Anubis was a dog and not a jackal as there were no jackals in Egypt at that time. The Sphinx is facing Sirius at the time when the star rises over the horizon at sunrise at the summer solstice, the time when the Nile started flooding, and the Egyptians probably held great ceremonies when that happened.......It was classically depicted as Orion's dog. The Ancient Greeks thought that Sirius's emanations could affect dogs adversely, making them behave abnormally during the "dog days," the hottest days of the summer. The Romans knew these days as dies caniculares, and the star Sirius was called Canicula, "little dog."

In Chinese astronomy the star is known as the star of the "celestial wolf" (Chinese and Japanese: 天狼; ; Chinese romanization: Tiānláng; Japanese romanization: Tenrō; in the Mansion of Jǐng (井宿). Farther afield, many nations among the indigenous peoples of North America also associated Sirius with canines; the Seri and Tohono O'odham of the southwest note the star as a dog that follows mountain sheep, while the Blackfoot called it "Dog-face". The Cherokee paired Sirius with Antares as a dog-star guardian of either end of the "Path of Souls". The Pawnee of Nebraska had several associations; the Wolf (Skidi) tribe knew it as the "Wolf Star", while other branches knew it as the "Coyote Star". Further north, the Alaskan Inuit of the Bering Strait called it "Moon Dog".

Several cultures also associated the star with a bow and arrows. The Ancient Chinese visualized a large bow and arrow across the southern sky, formed by the constellations of Puppis and Canis Major. In this, the arrow tip is pointed at the wolf Sirius. A similar association is depicted at the Temple of Hathor in Dendera, where the goddess Satet has drawn her arrow at Hathor (Sirius). Known as "Tir", the star was portrayed as the arrow itself in later Persian culture.

Sirius is mentioned in Surah 53, An-Najm ("The Star"), of the Qur'an, where it is given the name الشِّعْرَى (al-shiʿraa.) The verse is: "وأنَّهُ هُوَ رَبُّ الشِّعْرَى", "That He is the Lord of Sirius (the Mighty Star)." (53:49)[100]

In Theosophy, it is believed the Seven Stars of the Pleiades transmit the spiritual energy of the Seven Rays from the Galactic Logos to the Seven Stars of the Great Bear, then to Sirius. From there is it sent via the Sun to the god of Earth (Sanat Kumara), and finally through the seven Masters of the Seven Rays to the human race.

DogonSee also: Nommo
The Dogon people are an ethnic group in Mali, West Africa, reported to have traditional astronomical knowledge about Sirius that would normally be considered impossible without the use of telescopes. According to Marcel Griaule's books Conversations with Ogotemmêli and The Pale Fox they knew about the fifty-year orbital period of Sirius and its companion prior to western astronomers. They also refer to a third star accompanying Sirius A and B. Robert Temple's 1976 book The Sirius Mystery....

reve: and Murray Hope. I see Huban's arrows cropping up and Isis, Osiris and Hathor. I would say logically that the brightest star was given to the brightest spirit because that is how the ancients see it but note how they really see it, very small after the sun and moon and even planets (not as bright as most of them). But it was precise with dating and navigating. Mount Hermon was also called Mount Sirius and the star is our nearest stellar neighbour/ One has to wonder about the odd visit, and if so by what.

Time travellers.


The Mundane Society servant

30-10-2011, 05:21 PM
I'd like to say a big welcome to Lynxcat! Thanks for making contact. If anyone has info on Leo having masonic connections I'd be interested.

cp just for Robert & Christopher who are near you I must explain that although Orman correctly asserted that Leo was sidestepped by the Masons and he would be one of the only people to know that, I can see how intricately bound Freemasons and Templars are with this. I am not sure whether this thread can bear this but let me know. We have Dr Dee being sent to Suffolk when a Templar grave is exposed by the sea, leading to many things happening including the 'angelic conversations'. The connection of the Knights of The Garter to the Templars. How St John and the Eye Hospital in Jerusalem come into it. A head that speaks. You name it. All to do with the Ymn. Are you up to it? The City, St George's flag and the obverse flag of the Knights of St John, the CIA, St John's Gate, the Docwra family.

Leo often spoke about 'honi soit qui mal y pense' and the dance at which (this curse he called it) was pronounced by the king at over the suggestion he might be consorting with a 'witch'. This was the moment the Garter Order was created to take over the Templar role. The Black Prince was the first member. Universities were created at Oxford and Cambridge. Our spy service evolved. The hidden work was done and always with Thoth's number 8 at hand, whether it was the sides of the church towers and fonts or the many pyramid granite drinking fountains erected in Britain later in 1888. My great uncle Sir Henry Souttar was a leading light. He was a famous surgeon around World War 1 to 2 time but was also the only man who knew all the rituals so was always in demand by the senior London Lodges. He had an observatory at the top of his house and put the gold angels above his local church in Marylebone. A true Asclepios he also conducted the first open heart mitral valve surgery and designed theatre instruments and sutures. No wonder my dad would not let me join. Freeman of the City drive their sheep over London Bridge.

can we go there?

reve x

30-10-2011, 06:33 PM
Correct me masons if I am wrong but the secret name of God, which they guard is Jabalon, = Baal John. I dont know who told me that, Leo, Orman, my dad, TV but there it is.

There are a few candidates in then Emin for that inluding Leo, Orman and Orion. Then ymns like my Dad and myself. The leader does not join the sect if we can call it that as well as hidden brotherhood.

As they have a thing about building and pyramids we are also connected in various ways. We both have a square and greet each other in a curious way. Although the masons know how their structure works they do not know the final hidden truth, who is at the top talking to their dreamers. We do, or can narrow it down.

We have establishments but they had degrees. Ask a silly questyion but are there any Emin or Ymn masons here? I know there is one at least.

reve x

3 6
999 999
6 or is it 3 I forget

30-10-2011, 10:23 PM
wiki: The Knights Hospitaller, also known as the Order of Hospitallers or simply Hospitallers, were a group of men attached to a hospital in Jerusalem that was founded by Blessed Gerard around 1023 out of which two major Orders of Chivalry evolved, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and the Order of St. Lazarus.

The Hospitallers arose because of the work of an Amalfitan hospital located in the Muristan district of Jerusalem, founded around 1023 to provide care for poor, sick or injured pilgrims to the Holy Land. After the Western Christian conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 during the First Crusade, the organisation became a religious and military order under its own charter, and was charged with the care and defence of the Holy Land. Following the conquest of the Holy Land by Islamic forces, the Order operated from Rhodes, over which it was sovereign, and later from Malta where it administered a vassal state under the Spanish viceroy of Sicily.

The Order was weakened by Napoleon's capture of Malta in 1798 and became dispersed throughout Europe.

When the Knights of St John (Hospitallers) had to leave Jerusalem they were 'given' Malta and Tripoli.

The History of the Knights of St. John on Malta.

Taken from the official website of the Order.
In 1530, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, as King of Sicily, ceded to the Order the island of Malta. At first, the Order's Maltese dominion, which also included the nearby islands of Gozo and Comino was considered a fief of the Kingdom of Sicily, its Grand Master a vassal. It was for this reason that an annual feudal tax was paid, though it was largely symbolic. It included, for example, a "Maltese falcon." ....Thus did the Order become known as the "Order of Malta." In deference to its origins in the Holy City, it was known as the Hierosolymitan Order of Malta well into the twentieth century. .....Not surprisingly, hospitals were among the first projects to be undertaken ........The expansion and fortification of Valletta, named for la Valette, was begun in 1566, soon becoming the home port of one of the Mediterranean's most powerful navies. The island's hospitals were expanded as well. the main Hospital could accommodate 500 patients and was renown as one of the finest in the world. At the vanguard of medicine, the Hospital of Malta boasted Schools of Anatomy, Surgery and Pharmacy. Valletta itself was renowned as a center of art and culture. The Church of of St. John the Baptist, completed in 1577, boasted works by Caravaggio and others.

The Grand Master was created a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, styled Serene Highness, in 1607. He was confirmed as a Prince in both Austria and Italy. In 1630 he was granted ecclesiastical precedence equal to that of a Cardinal. To this day, the Grand Master of the Order of Malta is styled His Most Eminent Highness.

...The University was founded seven years later, followed, in 1786, by a School of Mathematics and Nautical Sciences. Despite these developments, some of the Maltese themselves grew to resent the Order, which they viewed as a privileged caste. This even included some of the local nobility, who were not admitted to the Order.

If he could not defend the knights, the King of Naples could at least grant them refuge in his dominions. In the decades following their expulsion from Malta, the knights' administrative offices were established in Sicily (at Catania and Messina) until 1826. In 1834, following a sojourn at Ferrara, the Order established itself in Rome. The Grand Magistry is still located in Palazzo di Malta, in Via Condotti near the Piazza di Spagna, where it enjoys extraterritorial sovereignty as one of the three sovereign governments within Italian borders (the others being Vatican City and the Republic of San Marino).

Malta as previously mentioned is of great interest to the builder. The first temple built by monumental masons with monumental lumps of rock c4000BC. For the Mother Goddess. The Knights built quite a lot in Malta too, and Jerusalem. Notable recent Knights of St John include heads of the CIA. this is not hidden, but presumed honorary. In their St John's Gate Headquarters in London is a vast oil painting of St John the Baptists head on a silver dish.

They are medically orientated - St John's Ambulance and St John's Eye Hospital on a hill in Jerusalem where it is sorely needed. Good for them. What was underneath it though?

Also on Malta are the exceptionally long skulls from 4000BC. Scare yourself and look at some on youtube google images etc. They will also show you some of the big Egyptian ones for comparison.

When the Templars were disbanded these Hospitallers inherited it all for a while.

reve x

30-10-2011, 10:33 PM
Although the masons know how their structure works they do not know the final hidden trutht

G-D is the creator and all these Luciferian cults are the embodiment of evil.
We Lebanese appreciate Israel for their help.
We Lebanese appreciate Israel for their help. - YouTube
The true salvation is to support all of those Christians who were persecuted and slaughtered by the Roman empire for millenniums.

30-10-2011, 10:41 PM
Is "G_d" fooled when you omit the "o"? There is no reason to take advice from a deluded protofascist like yourself unless it's topical to your particular religious mythology.

Its funny how you claim to be a Christian while exhibiting the customs and traits of Judaism.

31-10-2011, 07:49 AM
G-D is the creator and all these Luciferian cults are the embodiment of evil.
We Lebanese appreciate Israel for their help.
The true salvation is to support all of those Christians who were persecuted and slaughtered by the Roman empire for millenniums.

Hi yourot21 - it is so nice to see any post here. GD in my expoerience is Crowley's Golden Dawn organisation but that would be another Luciferian cult.

Lucifer is the morning star, Venus. Also Prometheus who brought the light/fire of heaven as discussed. Awaiting justification like all the other cults who made similar mistakes but made us what we are now.

The Masons and Round Table are so well set up to help us move forward, redistribute fairly, bring the truth this time, and ensure stability as we change over. So is the church, vatican and everything else. But they need to change the record.

None of them like to change anything.

reve x

Sr Henry left them in the end. Will continue a bit later.

31-10-2011, 07:12 PM
I will cut the wiki for a bit, but do not accept my version without authentication.

Monasteries have a lot to do with Ymn so does the Monas Hieroglyphica which Dee published just as they were being dissolved by Henry V111.

First you have to see the two main sects for what they are. A lot of Christians are Baptists and refrain from alcohol, do not surf porn and are more closely associated with John the Baptist than Jesus. Jesus introduced wine to the story, changing 'Jordan river water baptism' into 'communion wine' basically, accompanied by a leg of lamb.

There are two gods involved behind this but Jove or Zeus loves his wine women and song. He overthrows his 'father' Kronos or Saturn in the tale. He is the non alcohol God (Islam, Baptists, maybe even Mormons) played by John the Baptist, who really was born miraculously to an old couple, the high priest, and thus given to God, did not cut his hair, drink etc and spoke out against Herod in an acceptable way. Salome working for her mother working for another got his head removed and it is now allegedly in a mosque in Damascus. (Dont tell the Templars their head is not John) Islam like the man more than the Christians in fact, except the Templars, Knights of St John, and particularly the Monasteries. These were classic schools like the ymn but with fasts, preparation, dedication, even isolation at times to achieve a spiritual purpose. Permanent Egyptian priests really. But too powerful and corrupt far too soon.

Now these would be the freemasons but as everyone knows they drink too much alcohol at meetings and their wives complain. But like the Monastic Orders of those Knights they aim to restore the temple. Solomon's Temple is in the name of St John's Knights, whose recently deceased, 'single' Catholic
grand master was Andrew Bertie, a cousin of the Queen and unusually an Englishman. He was based in Rome,

In Malta they had a fleet to counter piracy and protect trade which they controlled but were in the 1500's taking slaves, many Jewish, but also Turkish and NorthAfrican and they rowed in chains the massive galleys they used, or they bought their freedom. Their motto though was that the 'sick are our masters'. This meant that unlike the Templars, created the same year 1191(?), they cared for the sick and hoped to be thus sanctified. But they fought the Muslims for Jerusalem as well with their white cross and black tunics. So they did evil in the sight of the Lord (ie in Jerusalem) just like Solomon before he ever took the throne (no archaeological evidence of him or his temple 'yet'). Solomon you may recall was not in line to inherit from his father David. Nice Jonathan, not David, would have been king after Saul if he had not been killed. When David was very old he was kept warm in bed by a beautiful young woman and when he died his tehn eldest son Adonijah made the mistake of asking if he could marry her, so Solomon had him despatched and took the throne himself. solomon (Son of Man) allegedly had 700 wives and a also a harem.

Do you see how often the nice guy is assassinated by the slob? Leo called it eternal repetition. We have to break the cycle. Do we really need to have kings who are so vulgar? They make wars for their egos.

One St John Grandmaster remarked '(roughly) how can I wear furs when my masters are naked?' referring to the sick in his hospital. Freemasons are the most generous people and subsidise many hospitals around the world. But the one at the top is not always what they hope for and they are used by these people. So are the many religous fanatics.

The head is used in ritials. In theory it can speak (if you sleep next to it). But there really was a man and his head is still around. with Jesus there are tons of splinters from the true cross and nails etc but no head you will note. He was spiritual (invented to counter Rome and based in it like the Knights).

If the gods make up there is no problem. all the sects can join hands.

John Dee wrort a treatise called the 'Monas hierglyphica' as a young man and presented it to the Holy Roman Emperor. It still fascinates wannabe magicians and is based on a 'glyph' all the signs for the Moon, venus etc pot in one figure which appears to have horns (like Hathor). It is really Pan but he does not say this. Pan was the Monastery God along with the great Goddess that they all worshipped as St Mary to avoid detection. Another sect within a sect.

I hate my lazyu spelling too! ps cp MONAS = MASON js

reve x

31-10-2011, 07:46 PM
more like 1023

I did not make clear. You cannot tell who is who. Peter was a John the Baptist disciple who started the Roman Church. A mole if you like, or subsequently overcome by Roman religion, but used by them. Peter was Jewish, but Paul who did the conscripting and preaching was a Roman, converted on the way to Damascus (to see the head?) from torturing Jews to taking over their messiah anti Roman sect. Henry V111 was something else, descended from Welsh magicians and the Celtic view of Christianity which has it based in Glastonbury. New Jerusalem. Never mind what sect you call yourself which category do you really fall into? Freemasons might be either at all levels, as most Christians are. But what upsets most of the main religions is a woman at the top !

Which reminds me of Sir Henry's daughter who was a giant of a woman, Elizabeth Souttar, the Head Deaconess. As far as you could get then. How happy she would be to see female Bishops and a female Pope. Actually probably not very happy. I want to know who ever said it had to be a man in the first place.

Sorry Tyler, going on a bit as usual.

reve x

31-10-2011, 09:16 PM
It is a phenominal civilization whose script has not been deciphered. You can see the magnificent Phaistos disc (a little like Denderah) and be the first. They are credited with civilizing Greece, the Linear A & B script, traded with Egypt and built simply massive buildings. Women were the equal of men if not more than equal:

wiki:The Minoans seem to have worshipped primarily goddesses, which has sometimes been described as a "matriarchal religion". Although there is some evidence of male gods, depictions of Minoan goddesses vastly outnumber depictions of anything that could be considered a Minoan god. While some of these depictions of women are speculated to be images of worshippers and priestesses officiating at religious ceremonies, as opposed to the deity herself, there still seem to be several goddesses including a Mother Goddess of fertility, a Mistress of the Animals, a protectress of cities, the household, the harvest, and the underworld, and more. Some have argued that these are all aspects of a single Great Goddess. They are often represented by serpents, birds, poppies, and a somewhat vague shape of an animal upon the head.

A major festive celebration was exemplified in the famous athletic Minoan bull dance, represented at large in the frescoes of Knossos and inscribed in miniature seals.

The Minoan horn-topped altars, since Evans' time conventionally called "Horns of Consecration" are represented in seal impressions, and survive in examples as far afield as Cyprus.

Minoan sacred symbols include the bull and its horns of consecration, the labrys (double-headed axe), the pillar, the serpent, the sun-disk, and the tree. However, recently a completely different interpretation of these symbols, focusing on apiculture instead of religious significance, has been suggested

Taken out by by successive earththquakes, volcanos, and a massive tsunami after Thera erupted. No wonder literature and prophecy are full of such things.

Apis culture? It is a very horny place, but Hathor is the prototype Minotaur. Some women have to be Taurus too. The contest was said to be in a labyrynth (underworld) beneath the Palace but it was never found there. Homer was writing about underworld things a lot, but they are dreamworld. Ie here, now. The horned one is 'overthrown' by Theseus (Zeus/Jesus). Man is allowed to overthrow nature at will from this time. Great Pan is dead.

Then in 2010, if you can believe it, it is suggested that the Satyrs of Chemmis were not saying Great Pan is dead at all and it was misheard by the sailors (of Homer) or mistranslated. Do you see how they work? All the sailors who heard that were immediately killed (by Homer). Only 'King' Odysseus survived the Odyssey. Predictably. (My classics are not that strong, possibly wrong that it was all Homer)

reve x going on and on and on, then I have to write it all again and finally remind you what I wrote. IOU is just as painful for me

31-10-2011, 10:28 PM
It is the Latin version of Lord, usually addressed O Domine.

This Lord (Adonai in Hebrew) is the maker of omnia (all things). We call upon his 'name', O Nomine. So it will be:

per Jesum Christum Dominum Nostrum (through JC our lord)

to which all reply: Amen (hope so).

Endless numbers of prayers, grace, baptism, funeral and marriage have had this solemnly pronounced by a priest and congregation. A ritual ymn blessing it turns out. Ie no one knows who is actually going to look after them, but we do.


Mn has a similar ring to Om when chanted mmmmn interesting
Knights of St John in UK celebrate 1888.

31-10-2011, 10:55 PM
The celts had a slightly different story about the head.

In the ensuing war, Manawydan is one of only seven men to survive. The mortally wounded Brân asks Manawydan and the others to cut off his head and take it back to Britain; it will continue speaking and keeping them company in the meantime. They come to a wondrous castle on the island of Gwales, where they enjoy a great feast and forget their sorrows. Manawydan recognizes opening the door of the castle "facing Cornwall" will break the spell, but one day his companion Heilyn son of Gwyn grows overcurious and opens it, and all their sorrows return. The group takes Brân's head to the White Hill (the location of the Tower of London) and bury it there, where it serves as a talisman against foreign invasion.


So the head is actually protecting Britain from invasion. Not Syria as they think. Manawydan is an ymn.

'Dont open the door' notice only encourages someone naughty to do it. It is a trap door.

reve 4

01-11-2011, 10:54 AM
Some of our senior members live in Wales and I want to introduce them. Start on the beach in Pembrokeshire and notice the beautiful, heavy little pebbles, midnight blue with their own little night skies of quartz stars. Spotted dolerite it is called from the ancient volcanic Preseli Mountains (most would say hills) a mile or two inland. There just above Mynachlog Ddu (Black Monastery) rise the peaks of Foel Drygarn, Carn Sian (John), Carn Arthur and Carn Menyn and most importantly Carn Meini. Many monuments are up here from very long ago, stone circles, standing stones and chambered tombs. But what is extraordinary is that at least 80 enormous chunks of bluestone (found only in the Preselis) from Carn Meini, were taken all the way to Stonehenge. There are bits of this bluestone, mace heads and axes all over Southern England in fact.

The Preselis were called the Dragon's Back and when you stand on them you can see why. Up there in marsh not to be approached in wet weather called Bedd yr Afanc, the grave of the Water Monster, with its curious folk tales. Arthur is claimed to be buried here too.

Now when you are up there you are in the place where St. David the holy patron saint of Wales communicated with the angels. That was on Carn Ingli just above the Parrog beach. It does not take long to find out why. You are in the clouds on the Dragons back, the sea below you and meeting all the elements. Here are so many spirits wanting to communicate, who have left doorways almost everywhere you look. I have a bluestone in my garden and a drawer full of pebbles from the beach. I and many others. These crystalline stones have a phenominal ability to resonate with each other I think. Perhaps because they are unique on our planet.

No one knows why the blue stones are at Stonehenge but the reason is to put at its heart Carn Meini, the Dragon. And behind this are those ymns who love building with massive stones, because they last longer.

The big stones are local limestone, the blue stones are the much smaller rounded ones, nevertheless exceptionally hard and heavy.

Hope all enjoy the day

reve x

01-11-2011, 01:04 PM
She is brilliant and sees Egypt through a woman's eyes. A world of matrilineal descent and equality. Men were not mostly bad then, children could safely wear no clothes till they came of age. It was a hot country. They were a natural and happy people.

Margaret Murray 'The Splendour that was Egypt' London 1951 Sedgwick & Jackson.

Laboriously typed and edited by scribe reve 60 years later

‘There are many methods of divination; in ancient Egypt the principal method was by dreams. This seems to have been taught in the temples, particularly at Heliopolis, where the High-Priest’s title was the Great Seer. It may be noted that the most celebrated interpreter of dreams, Joseph, married the daughter of one of the High-priests…by the successful interpretation of royal visions. Another method was by casting lots, though this was practised by Jews more than Egyptians‘.

Reve: she means the lots in the Temple of Solomon and how that worked. IE like shuffling a tarot pack, a good method if you know who is rearranging the cards. I would suggest it is our own inner life that does this if we are adept enough. Margaret then goes on to say most Egyptian magic was for ‘love’, but also bewitching enemies.

‘As there was so much magic which could be performed in secret against a person there had to be counter-magic for protection. For this reason amulets were worn, talismans were hung in the house, especially at the doors and windows to prevent entrance of evil through these openings, written charms were secreted on the person, and secret practices were common. The vulnerable place to strike a person is the back as they cannot see the coming blow, physical or magical. The ‘menyt’ which hung at the back between the shoulders gave this protection, for in it the goddess Hathor was immanent.

Reve: Hathor is coveriung oiur back and fortunately that good old ymn Thoth has God of magic among his many tasks. He is credited with writing with his own hand 42 volumes of all the wisdom of the world, and a book on magic. It sounds a retrospective task. Thoth (she calls him Zehuti) is also the:

‘#Tongue, the Word, by whom all creation came into existence# this is an early example of that theory of the Logos'

Reve: the Logos is probably that book if it contained all the 'laws' of Egypt. Or at least someone said that - they dont have the book of course. We can look at countering curses if anyone thinks it is imminent. Really the above is saying that some ymn’s counter the magic of some bad ymn’s who use it for power over women or vice versa, as Leo used to say - ‘they came here for a dirty weekend.’ I would point out that almost everyone does. We have some very funny attitudes to women in all our cultures. Couple more snippets from her marvellous book. She explains that when Thebes was a mud village, Amon the local god was a goose or sometimes a ram. Called the ‘Great Cackler’. 2 very ancient prayers:

‘O Amon-Re, first of Kings, God of the beginning, vizier of the poor, who takes no unrighteous reward who speaks not to him who brings false evidence nor looks on one who only makes promises. Amon-Re judges the earth with his finger, and speaks to the heart. He assigns the wicked to punishment, but the righteous to the West’

‘O Amon lend thine ear to one who stands alone in the court who is poor while his adversary is rich. The people of the court oppress him; silver and gold for the scribes of the accounts; clothes for the attendants! But it is found that Amon has changed himself into the Vizier in order that a poor man shall not be crushed’

In today’s parlance that is 'so' inner life. David Icke do not despair. Better to be on the right side in that particular court. Anyway Amon is not short of ‘money’

‘Even as late as Osorkon1 (924BC) the temples received from the Pharaoh in silver and gold 2,300,000 Deben (about 560,297 lb. troy), in silver alone two million Deben (487,180 lb. troy) besides black bronze, lapis lazuli, and wine of the Oases; these last were almost as costly as the precious metals‘.


Thothmosis 111 also used electrum (silver/gold alloy) on his temple gates as had been done for centuries. He says:

‘I erected the first gate, Men-Kheper-Re is splendid in the Opulence of Amon; the second, Men-Kheper-re abides in the Favour of Amon; the third Men-Kheper-re is the greatest of the Souls of Amon, wrought with real electrum'.

He may have been the greatest then. Moses was still hiding with a magician whose daughter he had married at this time. After T111 conquered the entire Middle East Margaret says:

'Thothmes 111 raised Amon to the position of supreme god of the known world, a position never before achieved by any deity. The idea of a supreme deity, ruling not merely his own district or even his whole country, but the whole world, now first appears; Amon was thus God of gods, Lord of lords, King of kings, and King of the gods.'

Did he now - our composite one! We are all souls of MN, if we want to be and know how it begins. Taking on additional names apparently. But then dictators take these retrospectively awarded titles and give us a bad name.


reve x

no post today, o dea!


01-11-2011, 03:19 PM
An important 'angelus' today in the calendar of both sides. I will describe it but first note from wiki:

Samhain ( /ˈsɑːwɪn/, /ˈsaʊ.ɪn/, or /ˈsaʊn/)[1] is a Gaelic harvest festival held on October 31–November 1. It was linked to festivals held around the same time in other Celtic cultures, and was popularised as the "Celtic New Year" from the late 19th century, following Sir John Rhys and Sir James Frazer.[2] The date of Samhain was associated with the Catholic All Saints' Day (and later All Souls' Day) from at least the 8th century, and both the secular Gaelic and the Catholic liturgical festival have influenced the secular customs now connected with Halloween.[3]

The medieval Goidelic festival of Samhain marked the end of the harvest, the end of the "lighter half" of the year and beginning of the "darker half". It was celebrated over the course of several days and had some elements of a Festival of the Dead. Bonfires played a large part in the festivities. People and their livestock would often walk between two bonfires as a cleansing ritual, and the bones of slaughtered livestock were cast into its flames.[4]

The feast of All Saints, on its current date, is traced to the foundation by Pope Gregory III (731–741) of an oratory in St. Peter's for the relics "of the holy apostles and of all saints, martyrs and confessors, of all the just made perfect who are at rest throughout the world", with the day moved to 1 November and the 13 May feast suppressed.[8]

This usually fell within a few weeks of the Celtic holiday of Samhain, which had a theme similar to the Roman festival of Lemuria, but which was also a harvest festival. '

also samain. It means assembly.

It was in bright sunlight today and I was better prepared than ever. Suddenly I knew I was in trouble and my vision really breaks down into an argument over a service for an old car. Some want it replaced*, others a major service which is massively expensive. Even the routine service costs an arm and a leg. I am to blame for suggesting it could be fixed so am not listened to just like any local garage on your car. then I get the local Michelin man to say he can do the tracking very cheap and all that is needed. Just a little change of direction, not due a service yet. I hope that is all it needs as it drives much too fast

(talk to the saints in your family today and the others tomorrow).


reve x

* global extinction

01-11-2011, 03:58 PM
I wondered if any ex or current members would add your own thoughts on what the Emin was / is to you here? And I am not talking about your experiences with the Emin society (as we know, all religions, churches, sects, ways of life, philosophy path walkers, cults etc have their dodgy human peoples), but the Emin itself, as itself, by itself.

What touched you at the time, stays with you even now after all this time (if anything)? Do you still use some of the tools or technologies you might remember from being part of it? It would be great to see what people who have been touched by the Emin at some point in their lives are now doing with or without anything they have brought into their 'now's.

How am I doing Andrea and am I staying on topic? Also do you know where the others have gone?*

reve x

*vegetarian book shops hopefully :)

01-11-2011, 09:37 PM
Looking norseward (I know this moon stuff is hard going):

wiki: Also called Mona. In Norse mythology, Máni (Old Norse/Icelandic "moon"[1]) is the moon personified. Máni, personified, is attested in the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson. Both sources state that he is the brother of the personified sun, Sól, and the son of Mundilfari, while the Prose Edda adds that he is followed by the children Hjúki and Bil through the heavens. As a proper noun, Máni appears throughout Old Norse literature. Scholarly theories have been proposed about Máni's potential connection to the Northern European notion of the Man in the Moon, and a potentially otherwise unattested story regarding Máni through skaldic kennings.

In the Prose Edda book Gylfaginning, Máni is referenced in three chapters. In chapter 8, the enthroned figure of High quotes stanza 5 of Völuspá, and the figure of Third, also enthroned, adds that this occurred prior to the creation of the earth.[8] In chapter 11, High says that Máni and his sister Sól are the children of a man by the name of Mundilfari. The children were so fair that Mundilfari named them "moon" and "sun", which was perceived as arrogance by the gods, and it so angered the gods that they placed the brother and sister in the heavens. There, Máni "guides the path of the moon and controls its waxing and waning."[9]

In stanza 39 of the poem Grímnismál, Odin (disguised as Grimnir) says that both the sun and the moon are pursued through the heavens by wolves; the sun, referred to as the "shining god" is pursued by Sköll to the "protecting woods", while the moon is pursued by Hati Hróðvitnisson.[6] In stanza 13 of the poem Alvíssmál, the god Thor questions the dwarf Alvíss about the moon, asking him what the moon is called in each of the worlds. Alvíss responds that it is called "moon" by mankind, "fiery one" by the gods, "the whirling wheel" in Hel, "the hastener" by the jötnar, "the shiner" by the dwarves, and "the counter of years" by the elves.[7]

In the Prose Edda book Skáldskaparmál, Sól is referred to in chapter 26 as "sister of Máni",[11] and in chapter 56 names are given for the moon: "lune", "waxer", "waner", "year-counter", "clipped", "shiner", "gloam", "hastener", "squinter" and "gleamer".[12]

You can see a nice statue of the horned Mona here:

Connected is the island of Mona (Anglesey/angel sea) separated from Wales by the Menai Strait, with Holy island next to it, and not far from the Isle of Man. These were the last Druid or Celtic outposts in Britain. Covered with standing stones, chambered tombs etc.

Mona measures time in lunar years and gives the name to a month.

night night

reve x

02-11-2011, 11:30 AM
How am I doing Andrea and am I staying on topic? Also do you know where the others have gone?*

reve x

*vegetarian book shops hopefully :)

How am I doing Andrea and am I staying on topic? Also do you know where the others have gone?*

reve x

*vegetarian book shops hopefully :)

Hi Reve

I think my idea was to share some life stories about how, if at all, the Emin had made a difference or an impact on people who had come across it.

I can see that all things ancient - cultures, civilisations, religions etc - have made an impression on your life and you have an ongoing thirst to research it.

I think that I would be more interested in knowing what it is about these areas that interest you, what do these areas mean to your life, what do you see these areas being relevant to the 'now' and why.

Each of us has our own individual areas that is for us and we can distill out from our own personal researches the nuggets or 'vitamins' from that on an ongoing basis - as you seem to be doing. For me, I am interested in what the 'vitamin' of your researches cause rather than the components of what the vitamin itself is made of. :)

My own personal interests lie in how do human's work, what are they for, why am I one, what is my own individual human purpose - if I have one, what is humanity as a whole's purpose, if there is one. My own researches go into human psychologies, human biology, human nature, the laws and how do we live in harmony with those instead of forever fighting against them (which seems to be the case most often), the amazingness of birth and the brilliance of death, the stunningness of immortality etc.

When I look at the human being as an amazing piece of equipment I can see similarities in how IT works and how other things work. So, for me the clues are everywhere.

So, it is great to know that your life is still doing the research, what does your research say? What does your research tell you about you?


02-11-2011, 07:08 PM
Hi Andrea, being composite I can see how important my emin heart is and how it makes me tick :)

Hi Reve

I think my idea was to share some life stories about how, if at all, the Emin had made a difference or an impact on people who had come across it.

r. yes

I can see that all things ancient - cultures, civilisations, religions etc - have made an impression on your life and you have an ongoing thirst to research it.

I think that I would be more interested in knowing what it is about these areas that interest you, what do these areas mean to your life, what do you see these areas being relevant to the 'now' and why.

r. it was a test - I imagined speaking to certain spirits in the past, asked them to leave some evidence of our chat and am studiously collecting it so they did not waste their efforts. In the 'now' we run a dream School for those like us who get no sleep.

Each of us has our own individual areas that is for us and we can distill out from our own personal researches the nuggets or 'vitamins' from that on an ongoing basis - as you seem to be doing. For me, I am interested in what the 'vitamin' of your researches cause rather than the components of what the vitamin itself is made of. :)

r. that it works and if that works what else might work

My own personal interests lie in how do human's work, what are they for, why am I one, what is my own individual human purpose - if I have one, what is humanity as a whole's purpose, if there is one. My own researches go into human psychologies, human biology, human nature, the laws and how do we live in harmony with those instead of forever fighting against them (which seems to be the case most often), the amazingness of birth and the brilliance of death, the stunningness of immortality etc.

r. we work in the engine room, they will not let us go on deck or near the captain. We dont know if we a friendly ship carrying relief supplies or a nuclear armed cruiser about to unleash its deadly load on the world. Either way we are an amazingness, but of horror or heaven. We need to find out as much as possible fast.

t the human being as an amazing piece of equipment I can see similarities in how IT works and how other things work. So, for me the clues are everywhere.

r. The hidden business is enlightenment. Most of us had looked everywhere for it. I had met Krishnamurti, supposedly enlightened, and the boy at Glastonbury in 1971, read what I could find about it, asked about it, and wanted to find someone who could 'see'. But when you can see you find out you are the servant with no choices at all.

So, it is great to know that your life is still doing the research, what does your research say? What does your research tell you about you?

r. that the ancient priests and priestesses, and prophets and prophetesses knew me and left something to prove it and that i am not alone


Andrea I wont pretend that all the angels and souls sing your praises, but I do reve xx

02-11-2011, 07:57 PM
wiki has good article on various religous views of this state. The only thing i would add is that we really mean 'guided aright', not just guided and we are not in an enlightened state if our inner voice deceives us.

Enlightenment in a secular context often means the "full comprehension of a situation",[1] but in spiritual terms the word alludes to a spiritual revelation or deep insight into the meaning and purpose of all things, communication with or understanding of the mind of God, profound spiritual understanding or a fundamentally changed consciousness whereby everything is perceived as a unity.

Some scientists believe that during meditative states leading up to the subjective experience of enlightenment there are actual physical changes in the brain.[2]


reve x

we notice the one who says 'we' are all one

03-11-2011, 01:31 PM
Honesty does not come easily. So many of the men who have consulted me over the years have been secret messiahs. They knew they were the messiah but did not talk about it, except perhaps letting it slip to a partner one day. So many women who came, had men like this. Many of them also had a thing. For example 'I saw a ghost' or 'I had an epiphany'. After years it is the type of thing which is difficult to admit never really happened. But admitting that enables us to move on. Frees us. The truth chooses not to live with a lie, but is surrounded by them.

Getting to the reason that almost all men dabbling with the occult believe they are messiahs is difficult unless everyone would be honest. They know if they admit it publicly they will be ridiculed, by all the other 'messiahs' probably. These feelings occur when we start meeting our inner life, which is as likely to tempt us astray as lead us anywhere helpful. It does not trust you and will testify against you, is an old Egyptian belief. Look what they did to Job and Jesus. Tempt you out of the way. This is what the 'overcoming' is really about. if you are a messiah do you have any proof or are you possibly being deceived but living in hope?

You should not believe me. I had the privilege and pain of those many hours, with another's soul bared before me. But that is what you discover and many here can testify as they have been there.

Unless people are honest with us, they cannot move on. Everyone has a hidden motive and agenda. How nice it is to spend time with people who are not like this. And to be able to write something that in life is derisory, knowing I am not alone in it.

Hopefully a few partners are looking at their men with a funny look, and the men are blushing.

Anyway this can be a moment of enlightenment for some, dropping that last bit of affectation. But it is painful. So is holding onto it and not making the most of your life.

As you will have seen above Samhain is what we celebrate on 'Guy Fawkes' night. It is the climax of the festival of the dead and is a ritual fire dance. The animals hate it, and used to be sacrificed on ithe bonfires so no wonder. Without the bangs for weeks and many firework factories devoted to it, it is quite a pleasant experience isn't it?

Leo used to say sometimes he was talking to something inside us. Should you find yourself trawling through this with increasing exasperation ask yourself why you are 'here' today.


reve x

reve x

03-11-2011, 01:43 PM

03-11-2011, 05:24 PM
you are probably right - boring (into the brain)

it should have a health warning :eek:

03-11-2011, 06:46 PM

well that made me laugh.... quoted to see on the following page....

03-11-2011, 07:32 PM
cp thank goodness you are back. (cp - composite person?) I am putting a health warning on my wiki quotes as hardly anyone wants to damage their brains reading them so i put the vitamin on a plate first:

If we want to know more about the Ymn we need to find out about the ‘primordial’ creatures. Because from what I have read this was the time that the logos was pronounced - possibly in its broadest sense Man. Whatever that means I am looking at the possibility that it is us. Cultures before ours are a lot more reliable for info on that. Science is still coming to terms with Chaos which most of us already know is infinitely ordered naturally.

Here are the Roman (actually Etruscan as they were absorbed by Rome), Buddhist, Greek, Egyptian & Gnostic versions of an always existing ymn, before time, which led the way from the chaos to our present state of chaos, by dream vision.

The Apocalypse (Uncovering) or Revelation/Rapture can only happen when the human is enlightened. Not when one or two are. When enough are for that to be the guiding force of our civilisation. What hope when we all think we are and are not.

I am posting all the dreary stuff below which means everything to me, more than the vitamin, so I do not need to edit so much out. Look at the Greek frogs! If interested or avoid

03-11-2011, 07:35 PM
only for those with time on their hands

Etruscan mythology

The Etruscans were a diachronically continuous population, with a distinct language and culture ..They ranged over the Po Valley and some of its alpine slopes, southward along the west coast of Italy, most intensely in Etruria with enclaves as far south as Campania, and inland into the Appennine mountains. Their prehistory can be traced with certainty to about 1000 BC. At their height about 500 BC, they were a significant maritime power…. At first influential in the formation and conduct of the Roman monarchy, they fought a series of wars with the Roman Republic, and were conquered and integrated into Roman culture. Much of Etruscan religion and mythology became part of classical Roman culture, including the Roman pantheon. The Senate adopted key elements of their religion, which were perpetuated by haruspices and noble Roman families who claimed Etruscan descent, long after the general population had forgotten the language.
…. A number of canonical works in the Etruscan language survived until the middle of the 1st millennium AD but were destroyed by the ravages of time and by Christian elements in Roman society.
Polytheistic belief system
The Etruscan system of belief was an immanent polytheism; that is, all visible phenomena were considered to be manifestations of divine power, and that power was embodied in deities who acted continually on the world but could be dissuaded or persuaded by mortal men.
Long after the assimilation of the Etruscans, Seneca the Younger said that the difference between "us" (the population of the Roman Empire) and the Etruscans was that
Whereas we believe lightning to be released as a result of the collision of clouds, they believe that the clouds collide so as to release lightning: for as they attribute all to deity, they are led to believe not that things have a meaning insofar as they occur, but rather that they occur because they must have a meaning.
Spirits and deities
Around the mun or muni, or tombs were the man or mani (Latin Manes), the souls of the ancestors. In iconography after the 5th century BC, the deceased are shown traveling to the underworld. In several instances of Etruscan art, such as in the François Tomb in Vulci, a spirit of the dead is identified by the term hinthial, literally "(one who is) underneath".
A god was called an ais (later eis), which in the plural is aisar. The abode of a god was a fanu or luth, a sacred place, such as a favi, a grave or temple. There, one would need to make a fler (plural flerchva), or "offering".
Seers and divinations
The Etruscans believed their religion had been revealed to them by seers, the two main ones being Tages, a child-like figure born from tilled land who was immediately gifted with prescience, and Vegoia, a female figure.
The Etruscans believed in intimate contact with divinity. They did nothing without proper consultation with the gods and signs from them. These practices were taken over in total by the Romans.
Etrusca Disciplina
The Etruscan scriptures were a corpus of texts termed the Etrusca Disciplina. This name appears in Valerius Maximus, and Marcus Tullius Cicero refers to a disciplina in his writings on the subject.
Massimo Pallottino summarizes the known (but non-extant) scriptures as the Libri Haruspicini, containing the theory and rules of divination from animal entrails; the Libri Fulgurales, describing divination from lightning strikes; and the Libri Rituales. The last was composed of the Libri Fatales, detailing the religiously correct methods of founding cities and shrines, draining fields, formulating laws and ordinances, measuring space and dividing time; the Libri Acherontici, dealing with the hereafter; and the Libri Ostentaria, containing rules for interpreting prodigies. The revelations of the prophet Tages were given in the Libri Tagetici, which included the Libri Haruspicini and the Acherontici, and those of the prophetess Vegoia in the Libri Vegoici, which included the Libri Fulgurales and part of the Libri Rituales.[8]
These works did not present prophecies or scriptures in the ordinary sense: the Etrusca Disciplina foretold nothing itself. The Etruscans appear to have had no systematic ethics or religion and no great visions. Instead they concentrated on the problem of the will of the gods: if the gods created the universe and man and have a will and a plan for everyone and everything in it, why did they not devise a system for communicating that will in a clear manner?
The Etruscans accepted the inscrutability of their gods' wills. They did not attempt to rationalize or explain divine actions or formulate any doctrines of the gods' intentions. As answer to the problem of ascertaining the divine will, they developed an elaborate system of divination; that is, they believed the gods offer a perpetual stream of signs in the phenomena of daily life, which if read rightly can direct man's affairs. These revelations may not be otherwise understandable and may not be pleasant or easy, but are perilous to doubt.
The Etrusca Disciplina therefore was mainly a set of rules for the conduct of all sorts of divination; Pallottino calls it a religious and political "constitution": it does not dictate what laws shall be made or how men are to behave, but rather elaborates rules for asking the gods these questions and receiving answers.
Cicero said
For a hasty acceptance of an erroneous opinion is discreditable in any case, and especially so in an inquiry as to how much weight should be given to auspices, to sacred rites, and to religious observances; for we run the risk of committing a crime against the gods if we disregard them, or of becoming involved in old women's superstition if we approve them.
He then quipped, regarding divination from the singing of frogs:
Who could suppose that frogs had this foresight? And yet they do have by nature some faculty of premonition, clear enough of itself, but too dark for human comprehension.

Rare Etruscan fanu located at Orvieto.
Divinatory inquiries according to discipline were conducted by priests whom the Romans called haruspices or sacerdotes; Tarquinii had a college of 60 of them. The Etruscans, as evidenced by the inscriptions, used several words: capen (Sabine cupencus), maru (Umbrian maron-), eisnev, hatrencu (priestess). They called the art of haruspicy zich nethsrac.
Etruscan beliefs concerning the hereafter appear to be an amalgam of influences. The Etruscans shared general early Mediterranean beliefs, such as the Egyptian belief that survival and prosperity in the hereafter depend on the treatment of the deceased's remains. Etruscan tombs imitated domestic structures and were characterized by spacious chambers, wall paintings and grave furniture. In the tomb, especially on the sarcophagus (examples shown below), was a representation of the deceased in his or her prime, often with a spouse. Not everyone had a sarcophagus; sometimes the deceased was laid out on a stone bench. As the Etruscans practiced mixed inhumation and cremation rites (the proportion depending on the period), cremated ashes and bones might be put into an urn in the shapes of a house or a representation of the deceased.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Vajrayana Buddhism, the Adi-Buddha, or Adibuddha (Tibetan: Dang-po'i sangs-rgyas), is the "Primordial Buddha." The term refers to a self-emanating, self-originating Buddha, present before anything else existed. Samantabhadra, Samantabhadri and Vajradhara are the best known names for Adi-Buddha, though there are others. Adi-Buddha is usually depicted as dark blue.
The concept of Adi-Buddha is the closest to monotheism of any form of Buddhism. Even then, Adi-Buddha is recognized as the center of an extended array of peaceful and wrathful deities, which are considered reflections of it. All famous sages and Bodhisattvas are said to be reflections of Adi-Buddha, and many are identified as the "personality" of it.
Adi-Buddha is better compared to the abstracted forces of Brahman, Ayn Sof or Arche rather than a personal creator God in the mold of Yahweh or Ishvara. Also, Adi-Buddha is not said to be the creator, but the originator of all things. Adi-Buddha is a deity in an emanationist sense.
Adi-Buddha is a representation of the interdependence of phenomena, being an entity that can be regarded as a creator in a relative sense. Though phenomena can be symbolically represented in the primordial nature of Adi-Buddha and have in it their collective source, the universe is not regarded as being linearly created or created from nothing, being in a continuous, eternal co-relation with the deity. It also represents the non-duality between the noumenom (the individual's mind), and the phnomena (the cosmos), which are also seen as interrelated.

Names of Adi-Buddha
Though all Buddhist figures are said to be emanations of the Adi-Buddha, certain Bodhisattvas are revered as its actual personality. This personality is often referred to as Dharmakaya, or "Buddha-body of reality."
The Bodhisattva Samantabhadra, who, according to the Avatamsaka Sutra made ten great vows, is revered as Adi-Buddha in the Nyingma school of Vajrayana, along with his consort Samantabhadri. The two are usually depicted together in Tantric union. Samantabhadra is dark blue, while Samantabhadri is white. They appear together as Adi-Buddha in the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead), at the center of the assembly of peaceful deities. Their wrathful forms are Mahotta Heruka and Krodheshvari.
There is some confusion over whether or not the Adi-Buddha Samantabhadra and the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra are in fact the same. Both appear as separate figures in the Bardo Thodol.
Vajradhara (Dorje Chang) is regarded as Adi-Buddha in the Gelug and Kagyu schools. Vajradhara is also considered the Tantric form of Sakyamuni, the Great Sage of Humans. He also is depicted as dark blue in color. His esoteric doctrines were said to have been handed down to Marpa Lotsawa.
In Mahayana Buddhism, Vairocana is interpreted as the Bliss Body of Shakyamuni, and appears as such in the Avatamsaka Sutra. However, in the Vajrayana text the Mahavairocana Tantra, Vairocana is depicted as the Adi-Buddha. The Mahavairocana Tantra is the basis for Shingon Buddhism, the oldest esoteric school of Buddhist thought in Japan, where Vairocana is called Dainchi Nyorai.
Ati Yoga (or Primordial Yoga), which is another name for the Tibetan tradition of Dzogchen, employs an Adi-Buddha sadhana, or practice. "Ati" and "Adi" are different orthographic representations of phonemes of the language of Uddiyana which equate to 'primordial' according to Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.
In Hinduism
In Vaishnavism, the term Adi-Buddha applies to the original form of Shakyamuni as an avatar of Vishnu. Shakyamuni is included as one of the ten avatars See also: Sugata Buddha

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Primordial deities
Gaia Hemera

In Greek mythology the Prôtogenoi are a genealogy of primordial Greek gods, the name literally means "first born" or "primeval" and are a group of deities born in the beginning of the universe.
The Protogenoi are the first entities or beings that come into existence. They form the very fabric of the universe and as such are immortal. The Prôtogenoi are a group of gods from which all the other gods descend. They preceded the Titans, the descendants of Gaia and Uranus.

Although generally believed to be the first gods produced from Chaos, some sources mention a pair of deities who were the parents of these Prôtogenoi. These deities represent various elements of nature. Chaos has at times been considered, in place of Ananke, the female consort of Chronos. The female Prôtogenoi are capable of parthenogenesis as well as sexual reproduction.
According to Hesiod's Theogony(c. 700 BC):
Chaos (Void, Air, arche) - genderless (sometimes poetically female)
Erebus (Darkness) – male and Nyx (Night) – female
Aether (Light) – male and Hemera (Day) – female
Gaia (Earth) – female
Uranus (Heaven) – male
The Ourea (Mountains) – male
Pontus (Water, the Seas) – male
Tartarus (the great stormy Hellpit, which was seen as both a deity and the personification) – male
Eros (Procreation) - male
Other sources
Ananke (Compulsion) – female
Chronos (Time) – male
Phanes (Appearance) or Himeros or Eros elder (Procreation) or Protogonos (the First Born) – male (sometimes described as a hermaphrodite but addressed as male)
Phusis (Nature) or Thesis (Creation) – female
The Nesoi (Islands) - female
Thalassa (Sea) – female
Ophion (Serpent; often identified with Uranus, Oceanus, Phanes, or Chronos) - male
The eight deities were arranged in four female-male pairs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and Kuk, Hauhet and Huh. The females were associated with snakes and the males were associated with frogs.[1] Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the female goddess from the male god in a pair; indeed, the names of the females are merely the female forms of the male name and vice versa. Essentially, each pair represents the female and male aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Naunet and Nu), air or invisibility (Amunet and Amun), darkness (Kauket and Kuk), and eternity or infinite space (Hauhet and Huh).[2]
Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things.

The first version of the myth has the entity arising from the waters after the interaction as a mound of dirt, the Milky Way, which was deified as Hathor. In the myth an egg was laid upon this mound by a celestial bird. The egg contained Ra. In the original version of this variant, the egg is laid by a cosmic goose. However, after the rise of the cult of Thoth, the egg was said to have been a gift from Thoth, and laid by an ibis, the bird with which he was associated.
Lotus variant
Later, when Atum had become assimilated into Ra as Atum-Ra, the belief that Atum emerged from a (blue) lotus bud, in the Ennead cosmogeny, was adopted and attached to Ra. The lotus was said to have arisen from the waters after the explosive interaction as a bud, which floated on the surface, and slowly opened its petals to reveal the beetle, Khepri, inside. Khepri, an aspect of Ra representing the rising sun, immediately turns into a weeping boy - Nefertum (young Atum), whose tears form the creatures of the earth. In later Egyptian history, as the god Khepri became totally absorbed into Ra, the lotus was said to have revealed Ra, the boy, straight away, rather than Ra being Khepri temporarily. Sometimes the boy is identified as Horus, although this is due to the merging of the myths of Horus and Ra into the one god Ra-Herakty, later in Egyptian history.
The number eight plays an important part in Gnostic systems, and it is necessary to distinguish three different forms in which it has entered in different stages of the development of Gnosticism.
7 + 1
The earliest Gnostic systems (such as the Ophites) included a theory of seven heavens, and a supercelestial region called the Ogdoad. Astronomical theories had introduced the conception of seven planetary spheres with an eighth above them, the sphere of the fixed stars.
When the Valentinian system had established belief in a still higher place, the supercelestial space was called the middle region (Mesotes); but Ogdoad was clearly its earlier name.
6 + 2
In the system of Valentinus, the seven heavens, and even the region above them, were regarded as but the lowest and last stage of the exercise of creative power. Above them was the Pleroma, where were exhibited the first manifestations of evolution of subordinate existence from the great First Principle. In the earliest stages of that evolution we have (Iren. I. i.) eight primary Aeons constituting the first Ogdoad.
The ultimate conception of God, named the Ineffable Father and who has existed since before the beginning, is described as Depth or Profundity (Bythos). All around him exists a female power that has been named Silence (Sige). These two deities, Depth and Silence, become the cause, through a process of emanation, of the other archetypal beings or Aeons. The Aeons are always born in male-female pairs (as syzygies), each of which is in itself a divine principle but at the same time represents one aspect of the Ineffable Father, who otherwise could not be described nor comprehended as he is beyond all names. The emanation takes place in the following manner: Depth-and-Silence gives birth to Mind-and-Truth (Nous and Aletheia), who gives birth to Word-and-Life (Logos and Zoë), who gives birth to Man-and-Church (Anthropos and Ecclesia). These Aeonic pairs comprise the Fullness of Godhead (Pleroma), and the first eight Aeons that have been expounded here are the Valentinian Ogdoad.[3]
4 + 4
The doctrine of an Ogdoad of the commencement of finite existence having been established by Valentinus, those of his followers who had been imbued with the Pythagorean philosophy introduced a modification. In that philosophy the Tetrad was regarded with peculiar veneration, and held to be the foundation of the sensible world. The Pythagorean oath by the Tetrad is well known.[4]
The Valentinian Secundus divided the Ogdoad into a right-hand and a left-hand Tetrad (Iren. I. xi.); and in the case of Marcus, who largely uses Pythagorean speculations about numbers, the Tetrad holds the highest place in the system.

Reve: so we all got that I am sure or use your nous and read it 3 times! Hopefully you can see all of us in there.

03-11-2011, 08:35 PM
For those who do not know krishnamurti here is a bit on him:

wiki: The Order of the Star in the East (OSE) was an organization established by the leadership of the Theosophical Society at Adyar, India, from 1911 to 1927. Its mission was to prepare the world for the expected arrival of a messianic entity, the so-called World Teacher or Maitreya.

One of the central tenets of late 19th-century Theosophy as promoted by the Theosophical Society was the complex doctrine of The Intelligent Evolution of All Existence, occurring on a Cosmic scale, incorporating both the physical and non-physical aspects of the known and unknown Universe, and affecting all of its constituent parts regardless of apparent size or importance. The theory was originally promulgated in the Secret Doctrine, the 1888 magnum opus of Helena Blavatsky, one of the founders of contemporary Theosophy and of the Theosophical Society.

According to this view, Humankind's evolution on Earth (and beyond) is part of the overall Cosmic evolution. It is reputedly overseen by a hidden Spiritual Hierarchy, the so-called Masters of the Ancient Wisdom, whose upper echelons consist of advanced spiritual beings. Blavatsky portrayed the Theosophical Society as being part of one of many attempts (or "impulses") by this hidden Hierarchy throughout the millennia to guide Humanity – in concert with the Intelligent Cosmic Evolutionary scheme – towards its ultimate, immutable evolutionary objective: the attainment of perfection and the conscious, willing participation in the evolutionary process. Blavatsky stated that these attempts require an Earth-based infrastructure (such as the Theosophical Society), to pave the way for the Hierarchy's physically appearing emissaries, "the torch-bearer[s] of Truth". The mission of these reputedly regularly appearing emissaries is to practically translate, in a way and language understood by contemporary humanity, the knowledge required to propel it to a higher evolutionary stage.

Sometime in late April 1909, Leadbeater encountered fourteen-year-old Jiddu Krishnamurti on the private beach of the Theosophical Society Headquarters at Adyar.[12] At the time, Krishnamurti's father (who had been a longtime Theosophist) was employed by the Society, and the family lived next to the compound. Leadbeater, whose knowledge on occult matters was highly respected by the Society's leadership, came to believe young Krishnamurti was a suitable candidate for the "vehicle" of the World Teacher, and soon placed the boy under his and the Society's wing. In late 1909, Annie Besant, by then President of the Society and head of its Esoteric Section, admitted Krishnamurti into both, and in March 1910 she became his legal guardian.

Following the "discovery", Leadbeater began occult investigations of Krishnamurti to whom he had assigned the pseudonym Alcyone – the name of a star in the Pleiades star cluster, and of characters from Greek mythology. Leadbeater's belief about the boy's suitability as the "vehicle" was strengthened by clairvoyance-related revelations of Krishnamurti's reputed past and future lives. These were recorded and eventually published

In December 1911, during a ceremony officiated by Krishnamurti at the close of the annual Theosophical Convention (held that year at Benares), those present were reported to be suddenly overwhelmed by a strange feeling of "tremendous power", that seemed to be flowing through Krishnamurti. In Leadbeater's description, "it reminded one irresistibly of the rushing, mighty wind, and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. The tension was enormous, and every one in the room was most powerfully affected." The next day, at a meeting of the Esoteric Section, Annie Besant for the first time announced that it was now obvious Krishnamurti was indeed the chosen "vehicle".

In 1912, Krishnamurti's father sued Annie Besant in order to annul her guardianship of his son, which he had previously granted. Among other reasons stated in his deposition was his objection to the "deification" of Krishnamurti caused by Besant's "announcement that he was to be the Lord Christ, with the result that a number of respectable persons had prostrated before him." Besant eventually won the case on appeal.

At the opening of the annual Star Congress at Adyar on 28 December 1925, following the much anticipated but uneventful 1925 Theosophical Convention, an event reminiscent of the one that happened in December 1911 occurred. Krishnamurti had been giving a speech about the World Teacher and the significance of his coming, when "a dramatic change" took place: his voice suddenly altered and he switched to first person, saying "I come for those who want sympathy, who want happiness, who are longing to be released, who are longing to find happiness in all things. I come to reform and not to tear down, I come not to destroy but to build." For many of the assembled who noticed, it was a "spine-tingling" revelation, "felt ... instantly and independently" – confirmation, in their view, that the manifestation of the Lord Maitreya through his chosen vehicle had begun.


By the late 1920s, Krishnamurti's emphasis in public talks and private discussions had changed. He had been gradually discarding or contradicting Theosophical concepts and terminology, disagreeing with leading Theosophists, and talking less about the expected World Teacher.[47] This shift in emphasis mirrored fundamental changes in Krishnamurti as a person, including his increasing disenchantment with the World Teacher Project, which led to a complete reevaluation of his continuing association with it, the Theosophical Society, and Theosophy in general.[48] Finally, he disbanded the Order at Eerde, Ommen on 3 August 1929, in front of a radio audience, about 3,000 members, and Besant herself.[49][50] The Order had about 60,000 members at the time. In his speech dissolving the organization, Krishnamurti said:

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path.
Despite the changes in Krishnamurti's outlook and pronouncements during the years leading to these events, the Dissolution of the Order and the ending of the World Teacher Project were unexpected by the great majority of their supporters and by Theosophists in general, and came as a complete shock. Following the Dissolution, prominent Theosophists openly or under various guises turned against Krishnamurti – including Leadbeater, who reputedly stated that "the Coming [of the World Teacher] had gone wrong". (wiki)

O dea try and try again.

reve x

04-11-2011, 03:51 PM
It is comin to the end of Samhain Festival of the Dead. This pretty loittle site has a nice article on divination at this special time, Samhain's origin etc, how to 'look' in a mirror now and get an answer to a question, and also how to collect your 3 dreamstones. http://www.chalicecentre.net/samhain.htm

The Druid Mug Riuth, who lived thousands of years and was supposedly in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, and the God Lug also come into Samhain. There are so many connections in these ancient 'gods', oral traditions so well preserved, but in their 'obvious' form they are quite unintelligible.

Avalon also has an Emin origin with special reference to this time of year:

Emain Ablach (also Emne; Middle Irish Emhain Abhlach or Eamhna; meaning "Emhain of the Apples") is the name of a mythical island paradise in Irish mythology. It is often regarded as the realm of the sea god Manannán Mac Lir and identified with either the Isle of Man or the Isle of Arran. According to the medieval Irish poem Baile Suthain Sith Eamhna, the god Lug Lamfada was reared in Emain Ablach.

EtymologyEmain/Emne is of uncertain etymology (though it may be compared with the place name Emain Macha in Ireland, recorded as Isamnion in Ptolemy's 2nd century AD Geography, which Celticist Heinrich Wagner would translate as "what is moving by itself rapidly, the stream", derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *eis- "to move rapidly". Ablach means "of the apples" in Old Irish. In medieval Arthurian literature, Geoffrey of Monmouth's island paradise Insula Avallonis (Avalon), where the sword Caliburnus (Excalibur) was forged, and where King Arthur was taken to be healed by the sorceress Morgen and her eight sisters after the Battle of Camlann, could have been influenced by Irish legends of Emain Ablach. The medieval Welsh equivalent of Avalon, Ynys Afallach ("Isle of Afallach"), may also be related to - if not derived from - Emain Ablach.

reve: Today/night would be the most auspicious in the year to contact Leo and Ruth. It is the Ymn day of the dead. If you want to do this (safely) have a look at that little website and see if you can make your own dreampillow or use those 8 bits of apple and the mirror.

Good luck

reve x

I had my chat with them at the angelus today and know they would love to hear from you, and to see you.

04-11-2011, 04:46 PM
Lir (Ler, Lyr, Learf) is the Celtic Sea God rather than monster. His son Manannán is the monster:

wiki:(Manannan) he was a pagan, a lawgiver among the Tuatha Dé Danann, and a necromancer possessed of power to envelope himself and others in a mist, so that they could not be seen by their enemies." It was by this method that he was said to protect the Isle of Man from discovery.

Manannán was associated with a "cauldron of regeneration". This is seen in the tale of Cormac mac Airt, among other tales. Here, he appeared at Cormac's ramparts in the guise of a warrior who told him he came from a land where old age, sickness, death, decay, and falsehood were unknown (the Otherworld was also known as the "Land of Youth" or the "Land of the Living").

As guardian of the Blessed Isles as well as Mag Mell he also has strong associations with Emhain Abhlach, the Isle of Apple Trees, where the magical silver apple branch is found. To the Celts, the Blessed Isles that lie beyond the sea are the gateways to the Otherworlds, where the soul journeys to after death. Manannán is the guardian of these gateways between the worlds.

reve: fairy land etc:

This conception of the Otherworld is also preserved in the Welsh story of Branwen, daughter of Llyr, which ends with the survivors of the great battle feasting in the presence of the severed head of Bran the Blessed, having forgotten all their suffering and sorrow, and having become unaware of the passage of time. In Irish lore, Donn, a god of the dead, reigned over Tech Duinn ('The House of Donn'), which was seen as existing on or under Bull Island, located off the Beare Peninsula in the southwest of Ireland. It was believed that the newly-dead journeyed to Tech Duinn, either to remain there forever, or perhaps as a starting-point on their journey to the Blessed Isles across the Western Sea.

Meanwhile a warrior son of Lugh overhears a bit of prophecy at Emain Macha but misses the important bit:

wiki:One day at Emain Macha, Cú Chulainn overhears Cathbad teaching his pupils. One asks him what that day is auspicious for, and Cathbad replies that ....

reve: note it is a (night) school

04-11-2011, 05:39 PM
So Orman if you are still here can you elaborate oin how you came to choose the name Emin for the way?

Was it by research, anagram, dream, instinct, collective decision, numerology or even chance?

When I dreamed of my 'ymn' name eventually I woke up desperately trying to remember it and thinking it was something like Jaws. A bit later I remembered it was For, or 4. But soon afterwards I decided it was my secret name and changed to Reve.

How did Orman come about, Orman and Emin and the others you know about?

Greetings Egeion you are far from forgotten. And Ermin. You must know how many times those old lessons are revisited. The writing (attendant forces) was on the wall. 'They' gave lovely B a bit of a reputation, not me. And that very nice goldrod Saturn! Return asap.


04-11-2011, 05:58 PM
When they say Bull island off the Bear peninsular, some will see Taurus or aliens from Ursa Minor, while others sit in the pubs of that name.

These islands are the UK 'now', in the West, in the North, magical, fertile and full of apples at this time of year and bonfires. Live forever, not grow old is what they think it must be like.

'Fortunate Islands' is not a very apt name for the ever complaining inhabitants who live here, determined to live uncomfortable lives based on a rigid social hierarchy and who forego their natural lives. But we will 'see'.

04-11-2011, 06:08 PM
There obviously is a strong connection between the two great night schools, the physical freemason squares and the spiritual ymn. The one comes to the other when correctly summoned. You are lucky you had Henry to show you how. Orman has yet ro reply why he put a square in Putney after years of horse shoes (ancient British temple shape). But the word temple arrived like magic, as did a holy of holies, and a demand for a Jewish Emin too. All connected I would imagine.


04-11-2011, 07:35 PM
The Fortunate Islands Chief is Tethra:

In Irish mythology, Mag Mell (modern spelling: Magh Meall, meaning "plain of joy") was a mythical realm achievable through death and/or glory (see also Valhalla in Norse mythology, Tír na nÓg also from Irish mythology and Avalon in Arthurian romances). Unlike the underworld in some mythologies, Mag Mell was a pleasurable paradise, identified as either an island far to the west of Ireland or a kingdom beneath the ocean. However, Mag Mell was similar to the fields of Elysium in Greek mythology, and like the fields of Elysium, was accessible only to a select few. Furthermore, Mag Mell, like the numerous other mystical islands said to be off the coast of Ireland, was never explicitly stated in any surviving mythological account to be an afterlife. Rather, it is usually portrayed as a paradisal location populated by deities, which is occasionally visited by some adventurous mortals. In its island guise it was visited by various Irish heroes and monks forming the basis of the Adventure Myth or "echtrae" as defined by Myles Dillon in his book Early Irish Literature. This otherworld is a place where sickness and death do not exist. It is a place of eternal youth and beauty. Here, music, strength, life and all pleasurable pursuits come together in a single place. Here happiness lasts forever, no one wants for food or drink. It is the Irish equivalent of the Greek Elysium or the Valhalla of the Norse.

Legends say its ruler is the Fomorian King Tethra, or more frequently Manannan mac Lir. Mag Mell's allure extended from the pagan era to Christian times. In later stories, the realm is less an afterlife destination than an Earthly Paradise which adventurers could reach by traveling west from Ireland, often blown off course by providential tempests while on an inspired mission. They typically explore many other fantastic islands before reaching their destination and returning home (or sailing on). Among these voyagers are St. Brendan, Bran mac Febal (see The Voyage of Bran), and Mael Dúin.

Irish monks, being celebrated sailors, doubtless inspired such stories and were inspired by them. They reached and colonized any number of faraway islands, and St. Brendan is even speculated to have reached the New World a thousand years before Columbus.

See alsoFortunate Isles

04-11-2011, 07:57 PM
on his curtain rail one morning I recall him saying.

the Fomorians / Fey

The race are known as the Fomoire or Fomoiri, names that are often Anglicised as Fomorians, Fomors or Fomori. Later in Middle Irish they are also known as the Fomóraig. The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates. In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea. Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea. Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare). Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".

mmmmn latent perhaps, hidden for a fact, inferior not at all. Primordial. Mara is more the sea earth goddess Mary in her blue dress than a nightmare but can be both sometimes like all of us.

Clearly west of Ireland is Florida. But it is not an island at present.


04-11-2011, 08:03 PM
wiki explains who came first, chicken or egg:

In Irish mythology, the Fomoire (or Fomorians) are a semi-divine race said to have inhabited Ireland in ancient times. They may have once been believed to be the beings who preceded the gods, similar to the Greek Titans. It has been suggested (by whom?) that they represent the gods of chaos and wild nature, as opposed to the Tuatha Dé Danann who represent the gods of human civilization. Alternatively, they may represent the gods of a proposed pre-Goidelic population of Ireland.

By whom?


05-11-2011, 11:39 AM
For those interested in the Emain. John & Caitlin Matthews book: Taliesin the last Celtic Shaman summarises some of the ancient tales which helps.

The Emain comes into their book because of the silver branch from the apple tree of Emain. The silver branch was always the symbol for poets and bards and also gains entrance to the Otherworld. It is given by the Queen of the Fairies (or one of her female attendants) to a mortal. In the tale of Bran’s voyage a strange woman appears after the gates are locked and sings to the house, which happened to be full of kings. But then she is not seen again. Bran is haunted by music and follows it until he falls asleep. He awakes to find this silver branch covered with white blossom and takes it back to the royal house. This time an unknown woman in ‘strange raiment’ sings 50 quatrains to Bran including:

A branch from the apple tree of Emain
I bring, like those we know
Twigs of white silver on it
Crystal grows with blossoms

She takes the branch back and vanishes again. Bran follows the branch to Otherworld where he finds the Queen of the Fairies and he stays for a year but on his return finds it was centuries (100 years a day?) and he is only remembered in legend and song.

A tree of silver on which the sun shines,
like unto gold is its splendid lustre

…is also written in the epic of ‘Cu‘. It stands outside the court. I find it interesting that the gates and thrones of the ancient Egyptians were made from electrum, mostly silver with gold alloy. Leo had a theory about Electrum. 2/3rds silver 1/3rd gold like the Trio maybe. He thought it was like a radioactive metal I think, it certainly has special properties. When I get my camera’s missing pc cable I will upload some photos of some electrum things I have acquired.

When ‘Teigue’ visits Otherworld he sees a youth eating a silver apple with golden hue. He eats a third part of it but it cannot be consumed. He points to the apple tree and is told that that apple tree’s fruit will serve for meat to all who come to this mansion.

The Golden bough is also a passport to this world: (Myth Encyclopedia):

In Roman mythology, the Golden Bough was a tree branch with golden leaves that enabled the Trojan hero Aeneas* to travel through the underworld safely. The bough was said to be sacred to Proserpina (Persephone), the queen of the underworld, and was associated with the goddess Diana*.
The story of Aeneas and the Golden Bough is found in the Aeneid, the epic by the Roman poet Virgil. According to this tale, the spirit of Anchises, Aeneas's dead father, appears and tells Aeneas to visit the underworld, where he will learn what the future holds in store for people. First, however, Aeneas must find the oracle known as the Sibyl of Cumae, who will lead him to the land of the dead.
Aeneas locates the oracle, who informs him that he cannot pass through the underworld safely without the Golden Bough. When Aeneas enters the forest to look for the sacred branch, two doves lead him to an oak tree that shelters the bough of shimmering
underworld land of the dead

I guess Emins are thinking Gemrod, but I think of a particular apple tree branch covered in blossom one sunny morning angelus.

These stories are genuine but relate to that place in our dream world that so few will ever find as it is the last thing most are looking for, a night school. Our problem is that having discovered the branch and gained entrance to this place many of us have realised we would rather be in McDonalds with the grandchildren than listening to some Celtic harp music and cryptic songs by unknowns.

Enjoy your paradise, each to their own

Reve x

05-11-2011, 01:51 PM
wiki does a neat job tying this up for us:

Paradise (Old East Iranian: pairidaeza) is a place in which existence is positive, harmonious and timeless. It is conceptually a counter-image of the miseries of human civilization, and in paradise there is only peace, prosperity, and happiness. Paradise is a place of contentment, but it is not necessarily a land of luxury and idleness. It is often used in the same context as that of utopia.

Paradisaical notions are cross-cultural, often laden with pastoral imagery, and may be cosmogonical or eschatological or both. In eschatological contexts, paradise is imagined as an abode of the virtuous dead. In Christian and Islamic understanding heaven is a paradisaical relief, evident for example in the Gospel of Luke when Jesus tells a penitent criminal crucified alongside him that they will be together in paradise. In old Egyptian beliefs, the other-world is Aaru, the reed-fields of ideal hunting and fishing grounds where the dead lived after judgment. For the Celts, it was the Fortunate Isle of Mag Mell. For the classical Greeks, the Elysian fields was a paradisaical land of plenty where the heroic and righteous dead hoped to spend eternity. The Vedic Indians held that the physical body was destroyed by fire but recreated and reunited in the Third Heaven in a state of bliss. In the Zoroastrian Avesta, the "Best Existence" and the "House of Song" are places of the righteous dead. On the other hand, in cosmological contexts 'paradise' describes the world before it was tainted by evil. So for example, the Abrahamic faiths associate paradise with the Garden of Eden, that is, the perfect state of the world prior to the fall from grace, and the perfect state that will be restored in the World to Come.

as for the Temple they go on about so much:

In the Old Testament, the word 'Pardes' (a transliteration of the Persian word) occurs in Song 4:13, Eccl.2:5, and Neh. 2:8 meaning 'park', the original Persian meaning of the word, similar to the description of the parks of Cyrus the Great by Xenophon in Anabasis.

In Second Temple era Judaism 'paradise' came to be associated with the Garden of Eden and prophesies of restoration of Eden. The Septuagint uses the word around 30 times, both of Eden, (Gen.2:7 etc.) and of Eden restored (Ezek. 28:13, 36:35) etc. In the Jewish pseudepigrapha use of paradise varies. In the Apocalypse of Moses Adam and Eve are expelled from paradise after having been tricked by the serpent. Later after the death of Adam, the Archangel Michael carries the body of Adam to be buried in Paradise which is the Third Heaven.

Later in Rabbinical Judaism the word 'Pardes' recurs, but less often in the Second Temple context of Eden or restored Eden. Tosefta Hagigah14b uses the word of the veil around mystic philosophy.[2]

The Zohar[citation needed] gives the word a mystical interpretation, and associates it with the four kinds of Biblical exegesis: peshat (literal meaning), remez (allusion), derash (anagogical), and sod (mystic). The initial letters of those four words then form פָּרְדֵּס – p(a)rd(e)s, which was in turn felt to represent the fourfold interpretation of the Torah (in which sod – the mystical interpretation – ranks highest).

sod the mystical interpretation was what most people recalled from that.

The word 'Paradise' means animal park. I will infuriate further. Sir Henry was lucky enough to live overlooking Regents Park and next to the Royal College of Physicians. We used to walk our dogs there, a Puli, Collie cross and Tibetan Terrier several times a week. It is paradise. The centre is one massive rosegarden and a water garden with black swans and herons. Around the outside are magnificent white scuptures on top of the Nash Terrace with all the Greek Gods and Goddesses looking in. Henry's angels are also visible from here. But above all we have the blessed 'Ark'. London Zoo where I met my great friend the giant anteater. Then given to me by the Egyptians as my animal, if not my beloved and much missed dogs. Or the cat. In this Park we have had processions. There used to be the Easter Parade with all the horse drawn beautiful carts that the Tibetan Woody absoletly loved. Thereafter when ever she saw a horse she was in love. And it was noticeable how transformed and shining everyone seems there at certain times. These are the pictures that go back, as they come here to see what we are like. We try to show them London at its nicest! And the Emin at its best. But no one can miss the problems in our crumbling society either, nor the rather extreme geological conditions from our narrow perspective. And if you have not guessed yet, they absolutely all go back smitten by TV. Seeing is a luxury much coveted in our universe but very rare. You could see it as the great white craving of Toir, although he meant sugar (or cocaine?) not white light broken into the 10 million shades of colours that the human can identify.

And they exclude the ultra violet bands that my parrot uses to see properly. And of course those more vivid colours of 'seeing', psychadelics and particular dreams. If you were a watery mass going nowhere before time you might be impressed by my living room and TV. Obviously you all have bigger ones so are less easy to convince.

reve x cackles silly goose

05-11-2011, 02:45 PM
cp do you know how you shrink posts so they dont take up pages? js

A bit more Ymn activity back there, our Nemisis no less:

In Greek mythology, Nemesis (Greek, Νέμεσις), also called Rhamnousia/Rhamnusia ("the goddess of Rhamnous") at her sanctuary at Rhamnous, north of Marathon, was the spirit of divine retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods). The Greeks personified vengeful fate as a remorseless goddess: the goddess of revenge. The name Nemesis is related to the Greek word νέμειν [némein], meaning "to give what is due". She was associated with the Roman Invidia.

Inexorable divine retribution is a major theme in the Hellenic world view, providing the unifying theme of the tragedies of Sophocles and many other literary works. Hesiod states: "Also deadly Nyx bore Nemesis an affliction to mortals subject to death." (Theogony, 223, though perhaps an interpolated line). Nemesis appears in a still more concrete form in a fragment of the epic Cypria.
She is implacable justice: that of Zeus in the Olympian scheme of things, but it is clear she existed prior to him, as her images look similar to several other goddesses, such as Cybele, Rhea, Demeter and Artemis.

Nemesis has been described as the daughter of Oceanus or Zeus, but according to Hesiod she was a child of Erebus and Nyx. She has also been described as the daughter of Nyx alone. Her cult may have originated at Smyrna.

...Nemesis, to avoid Zeus, turns into a goose

The word Nemesis originally meant the distributor of fortune, neither good nor bad, simply in due proportion to each according to what was deserved; then, nemesis came to suggest the resentment caused by any disturbance of this right proportion, the sense of justice which could not allow it to pass unpunished. O. Gruppe (1906) and others connect the name with "to feel just resentment". From the 4th century onwards, Nemesis, as the just balancer of Fortune's chance, could be associated with Tyche.
In the Greek tragedies Nemesis appears chiefly as the avenger of crime and the punisher of hubris, and as such is akin to Atë and the Erinyes. She was sometimes called "Adrasteia", probably meaning "one from whom there is no escape"; her epithet Erinys ("implacable") is specially applied to Demeter and the Phrygian mother goddess, Cybele.

A festival called Nemeseia (by some identified with the Genesia) was held at Athens. Its object was to avert the nemesis of the dead, who were supposed to have the power of punishing the living, if their cult had been in any way neglected (Sophocles, Electra, 792; E. Rohde, Psyche, 1907, i. 236, note I).
Nemesis, winged balancer of life,
dark-faced goddess, daughter of Justice,
and mentioned her "adamantine bridles" that restrain "the frivolous insolences of mortals."

In early times the representations of Nemesis resembled Aphrodite, who herself sometimes bears the epithet Nemesis. Later, as the maiden goddess of proportion and the avenger of crime, she has as attributes a measuring rod (tally stick), a bridle, scales, a sword and a scourge, and rides in a chariot drawn by griffins.
Nemesis is also known to have been called by the name "Adrastia". Ammianus Marcellinus includes her in a digression on Justice following his description of the death of Gallus Caesar.

In neoplatonism there exists several levels or hypostases of being, including the natural and visible world as a lower part.
The Monad or "the One" sometimes also described as "the Good", based on the concept as it is found in Plato. This is the dunamis or possibility of existence. It causes the other levels by emanation.
The Nous (usually translated as "Intellect", or "Intelligence" in this context, or sometimes "mind" or "reason") is described as God, or more precisely an image of God, often referred to as the Demiurge. It thinks its own contents, which are thoughts, equated to the Platonic ideas or forms (eide). The thinking of this Intellect is the highest activity of life. The actualization (energeia) of this thinking is the being of the forms. This Intellect is the first principle or foundation of existence. The One is prior to it, but not in the sense that a normal cause is prior to an effect, but instead Intellect is called an emanation of the One. The One is the possibility of this foundation of existence.
Soul (psuchē). The soul is also an energeia: it acts upon or actualizes its own thoughts and creates "a separate, material cosmos that is the living image of the spiritual or noetic Cosmos contained as a unified thought within the Intelligence". So it is the soul which perceives things in nature physically, which it understands to be reality. Soul in Plotinus plays a role similar to the potential intellect in Aristotelian terminology.
Lowest is matter.
This was based largely upon Plotinus' reading of Plato, but also incorporated many Aristotelian concepts, including the Unmoved Mover as energeia.They also incorporated a theory of anamnesis, or knowledge coming from the past lives of our immortal souls, like that found in some of Plato's dialogues

According to Hippolytus, this view was inspired by the Pythagoreans, who called the first thing that came into existence the "Monad, which begat the dyad, which begat the numbers, which begat the point, begetting lines or finiteness, etc. Pythagorean and Platonic philosophers like Plotinus and Porphyry condemned Gnosticism (see Neoplatonism and Gnosticism) for their treatment of the monad or one.

Monad (Gnosticism)
The Monad in early Christian gnostic writings is an adaption of concepts of the Monad in Greek philosophy to Christian gnostic belief systems.
The term monad comes from the Greek feminine noun monas (nominative singular, μονάς), "one unit," where the ending -s in the nominative form resolves to the ending -d in declination.[1]
In some gnostic systems the Supreme Being is known as the Monad, the One, The Absolute Aiōn teleos (The Perfect Æon, αἰών τέλεος), Bythos (Depth or Profundity, Βυθός), Proarchē (Before the Beginning, προαρχή), and Hē Archē (The Beginning, ἡ ἀρχή) and The ineffable parent. The One is the high source of the pleroma, the region of light. The various emanations of The One are called æons.
According to Theodoret's book on heresies (Haereticarum Fabularum Compendium i.18) the Arab Christian Monoimus (150-210) used the term Monad was the highest god which created lesser gods, or elements (similar to æons). In some versions of Christian gnosticism, especially those deriving from Valentinius, a lesser deity known as the Demiurge had a role in the creation of the material world in addition to the role of the Monad. In these forms of gnosticism, the God of the Old Testament is often considered to have been the Demiurge, not the Monad, or sometimes different passages are interpreted as referring to each.
This Monad is the spiritual source of everything which emanates the pleroma, and could be contrasted to the darkness of pure matter.
Historical background
According to Hippolytus, this view was inspired by the Pythagoreans, for whom the first thing that came into existence was referred to as the Monad, which begat the dyad, which begat the numbers, which begat the point, begetting lines, etc. Pythagorean and Platonic philosophers like Plotinus and Porphyry condemned Gnosticism (see Neoplatonism and Gnosticism) for their treatment of the monad or one.
For a long time, legend persisted that a young man by the name of Epiphanes was the leader of the Monadic Gnosticism who died age 17. However, scholars think the legend may have come from misunderstanding of the Greek word epiphanēs which may have been mistaken as a personal name if in text, when in fact the Greek means distinguished, as in a distinguished teacher.

Epiphany means something else. Possibly the realisatioon by revelation that in the beginning was the Monad (now)

reve x

05-11-2011, 03:06 PM

The representative of, and sometimes the US President himself, our current world leader, sleeps in Regent Park. We have a Golden roofed Mosque and a Church on the outer road. An open theatre for Midsummers Night's Dream , often performed there then. A Zoological team trying to rescue, preserve, give a decent life to nature, and pay for itself. I wish they had given the football pitches to the Elephants and not had to take them to Whipsnade but we are not yet perfect. And you can walk past and marvel at 20 odd herons who are free to leave at any time but love this protected place. Row a boat. Spot the rarest birds flying through. Feed the robins and bluetits out of your hand. Tulips to die for. We adopted it long ago as pretty much as good as it could get and fight to preserve this tiny corner of nature in the verfy heart of a frenetic world. St John's Lodge is a large white house in the middle overlooking the willow trees and lake. (Lucky for some)

It is free!


05-11-2011, 05:05 PM
This is just a thought on cv's really. It would not have helped in the 70's and 80's but these days the Emin ticks all the boxes on a cv for personal development, hobby, charity, night school, etc so we need to put it down.

I still would not want to call it Church of the Emin Coils as I think that conjures up future problems, if only odd looks. Eminent Way unfortunately sounds perhaps elitist...Emin Society I really like. That is also what it was.

So what i am thinking next is 'certificates' to prove it. The planet earth symbol maybe and preferably doctorates if you did 7 years like me. Otherwise just degrees in every subject. It would have to be based in Florida would it to do that? Ordination certs too. Imagine Rev Dr Reve !

I think I can hear agreement on this from old codgers. Silver Branches(Beacons) and Gold Boughs(Rods) can be the distinctions and merits. But you have to post here at least once to get your doctoral thesis in.

Professor Ethra what thinkest thou?

Dr Reve (in hope)

05-11-2011, 05:16 PM
I have to admit this idea has grabbed me by the throat

05-11-2011, 06:45 PM
It is Hajj time and millions have converged on Mecca but first they must sleep a night at Mina - this is what the Saudi Ministry report this year

'5th November 2011 - More than 2.5 million pilgrims converge on Mina

On the day known as Yaum Al-Tarwiyah (Watering Day), millions of pilgrims made their way to the valley of Mina, converging on tent city.
Arab News'

Sweet dreams

reve x

05-11-2011, 08:23 PM
for their patience as they wait to come home:

The Sanskrit word śramaṇa is derived from the Sanskrit verbal root śram "to exert effort, labor or to perform austerity". "Śramaṇa" thus means "one who strives" or "laborer" in Sanskrit.

One of the earliest uses of the word is in the Hindu text Taittiriya Aranyaka (2-7-1) with the meaning of 'performer of austerities'. A traditional Sanskrit definition[citation needed] is śramati tapasyatīti śramaṇaḥ ("a śramaṇa is he who exerts himself and performs religious austerities").

Buddhist commentaries associate the word's etymology with the quieting (samita) of evil (pāpa) as in the following phrase from the Dhammapada, verse 265: samitattā pāpānaŋ ʻsamaṇoʼ ti pavuccati ("someone who has pacified evil is called samaṇa").

Various forms of the word became known throughout Central and East Asia, largely through the spread of Buddhism in that area. According to a still disputed etymology, the word shaman, used by the Tungus people for their religious practitioners, may be borrowed from a local variant of the word śramaṇa.

Several śramaṇa movements are known to have existed before the 6th century BCE dating back to Indus valley civilization. These have influenced both the Astika and the Nastika traditions of Indian philosophy.

Among the Astika schools of Hinduism, Vedanta, Samkhya and Yoga are early and very important philosophies that have influenced and been influenced by the Sramana philosophy, with their origins in the Indus Valley period of about 3000-2000 BCE. Yoga follows the Samkhya philosophy of liberating oneself from the grip of Prakriti (nature) through individual effort. Elaborate processes are outlined in Yoga to achieve individual liberation through breathing techniques (Pranayama), physical postures (Asanas) and meditations (Dhyana). Patanjali's Yoga sutra is one product (school) of this philosophy. Other Yogic schools and the Tantra traditions are also important derivatives and branches of the Sramana practices.

schools and branches to get into them?

reve x

05-11-2011, 09:01 PM
I am not an idiot goose... as soon as the word vegetarian is mentioned, all is lost. This is too harsh to bear never mind contemplate. Abstaining from alcohol is worse. Not to say unbelievable. It is like trying to get an addicted smoker into hospital for more than 20 minutes.

Are these austerity measures vital you ask? Surely the Trio had a bacon sandwich sometimes? Only in the short term is the answer to the first, I dont know about the second but we can make discreet enquiries (Orman/Ethra?). And only if you want to be conscious of the journey, or drive the train. So that cuts out most people but not all cultures. 1% of us is a psychopath 10% are veggie currently. Not enough to change the law! This week will see mass sacrifices all over the Middle East & North Africa. They are buying their cattle and goats now by the thousand. I am reminded of my feelings at a bull fight I saw as a boy. Impotent despair and sadness. What god wants this now - can we not move on?

reve x

05-11-2011, 11:42 PM
Hi reve, i'm sure she'll soon be in contact now you've put the message out.

cp it has been a month. I am worried. Not about the basement now but about my lack of tact, or as Leo would say, charm. I wonder if would help if I didn't mention my Dad coming to Putney*. But I also think someone could read this thread and think I am not all there. I know - it is ridiculous. If you read all of this you would go missing, not me.

As she is our Faery Queen, and since you were or 'are' Oberon, I am letting you know I am making a little fairy wish that she might appear here and sing us a quatrain.

Rev Dr Reve ('Hope' Fl.)

a fairy wish is 'please, please, please' :)

* I could detract that bit, sneak the spirits back and no one be any the wiser.

06-11-2011, 10:58 PM
The Latin word 'osmen' means 'foreboding', and 'monstrum' is a 'sign' (as in demonstration not monstrous) and they give us the word omen. As in ominous silence, sometimes described as deafening. It certainly got me. But omens can be good. I timed out on my last post for example.

Remember your dreams, they may be your reality. Did you not dream of this day long ago? rx

or probably not cannot remember

07-11-2011, 06:55 PM
I used to be a member of the Emin. A lot of what I read in Icke's books has many things in common with them. If your an Emin person, say hello! I used to call myself Oberon in thse days.
Hi Oberon,

Corem here. I've been following Davids stuff for many years now. And yes, as we would have said, he's doing a great Emin in my view.

Hope all's well with you.


07-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Hi Oberon,

Corem here. I've been following Davids stuff for many years now. And yes, as we would have said, he's doing a great Emin in my view.

Hope all's well with you.


Nice of you to pop by and welcome to the forum....

07-11-2011, 09:40 PM
'Emin' to the core. David is certainly brave but I worry about his seeing the Rothschilds behind everything bad. Surely they might just be getting ready for an enlightened time as predicted with the return of Shiloh. Britain should learn from its conflicts with names starting ira. Irate enemies who take centuries to settle blood feuds. Ymns should run things for a while. All in favour say omn

When my posts time out is it because they are too long or there is no time left? Or is everything one?

reve x

I nearly forgot now I think my animal is an elephant or is that inphantile

07-11-2011, 09:48 PM
cp you have reached another thoth number with this thread. Congratulations! js

07-11-2011, 10:04 PM
Herald Sun can enlighten further:

MILLIONS of Muslim pilgrims have flooded a valley near the Saudi holy city of Mina to stone pillars representing Satan, on the penultimate day of the annual hajj.
The most dangerous rite of the annual hajj proceeded peacefully as pilgrims rushed to throw 21 stones on the three pillars that symbolise the devil, the last rite of the annual and compulsory pilgrimage to the Saudi city of Mecca, the birthplace of Islam and its holiest site.

In previous years, hundreds of people have been trampled to death in stampedes triggered by crowds trying to get close to the pillars to take their vengeance on the symbol of the devil.

"This time the stone-throwing process was easy, not like years past," said 33-year-old Calazar Shah, a Pakistani pilgrim on his second hajj journey.

To complete the ritual, pilgrims must throw seven pebbles at each of the three 25-metre pillars on the first day of the three-day Eid al-Adha feast marking the end of the hajj, and another seven on each of the last two days.

21 pebbles I can work out but who is getting stoned? And who cast the first one I wonder.

reve x

All through November remember remember remember your dreams

08-11-2011, 05:32 PM
Herald Sun can enlighten further:

21 pebbles I can work out but who is getting stoned? And who cast the first one I wonder.

reve x

All through November remember remember remember your dreams

It's an interesting news story, full of masonic symbollogy and numbers. There are other threads here somewhere that specialise in them, the trapped miners underground story was one of them. It is suggested that some kind of coding goes on with stories like that.

08-11-2011, 06:59 PM
if you are wondering whether to destroy a tree this year by bringing it out of the cold, perhaps this may help decide whether to have an already dead tree or one with roots in a pot which might make the new year. Both will shed needles and be rather sad looking after the event.

Leo suggested the custom was ancient and was for bringing into your house the nature spirits.

wiki say Legend associates the first Christmas tree with St. Boniface and the German town of Geismar. Sometime in Boniface's lifetime (c. 672-754) he is said to have cut down the sacred tree of Thor in Geismar, replacing it with a fir tree which has been said to have been the first Christmas tree. The word Tannenbaum, a German word for "fir tree", can be understood to be a "Christmas tree" although the literal meaning of "Christmas tree" is encapsulated in the word "Weihnachtsbaum."

anyway the festival is over by Christmas and at its nicest the week before:

Saturnalia was introduced around 217 BC to raise citizen morale after a crushing military defeat at the hands of the Carthaginians.[2] Originally celebrated for a day, on December 17, its popularity saw it grow until it became a week-long extravaganza, ending on the 23rd.[citation needed] Efforts to shorten the celebration were unsuccessful. Augustus tried to reduce it to three days, and Caligula to five. These attempts caused uproar and massive revolts among the Roman citizens.

Saturnalia involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year. A Saturnalicius princeps was elected master of ceremonies for the proceedings. Besides the public rites there were a series of holidays and customs celebrated privately. The celebrations included a school holiday, the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia),and a special market (sigillaria). Gambling was allowed for all, even slaves.

The toga was not worn, but rather the synthesis, i.e. colourful, informal "dinner clothes"; and the pileus (freedman's hat) was worn by everyone. Slaves were exempt from punishment, and treated their masters with (a pretense of) disrespect. The slaves celebrated a banquet: before, with, or served by the masters. Yet the reversal of the social order was mostly superficial; the banquet, for example, would often be prepared by the slaves, and they would prepare their masters' dinner as well. It was license within careful boundaries; it reversed the social order without subverting it.[3]

The customary greeting for the occasion is a "Io, Saturnalia!" — Io (pronounced "e-o") being a Latin interjection related to "ho" (as in "Ho, praise to Saturn"). wiki

Saturnalia recorded presents include: writing tablets, dice, knuckle bones, moneyboxes, combs, toothpicks, a hat, a hunting knife, an axe, various lamps, balls, perfumes, pipes, a pig, a sausage, a parrot, tables, cups, spoons, items of clothing, statues, masks, books, and pets.

Even recorded here: The Mishna and Talmud (Avodah Zara 8a) describe a pagan festival called Saturna which occurs 8 days before the winter solstice. It is followed 8 days after the solstice with a festival called Kalenda. The Talmud ascribes the origins of this festival to Adam, who saw that the days were getting shorter and thought it was punishment for his sin. He was afraid that the world was returning to the chaos and emptiness that existed before creation. He sat and fasted for 8 days. Once he saw that the days were getting longer again he realized that this was the natural cycle of the world, so made 8 days of celebration. The Talmud states that this festival was later turned into a pagan festival.[6][7]

Note Saturn is untied for this short time - is that why the nature spirits can come in?. A way to see them here*

wiki on fairies: In his manuscript, The Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Fauns and Fairies, Reverend Robert Kirk, minister of the Parish of Aberfoyle, Stirling, Scotland, wrote in 1691:

These Siths or Fairies they call Sleagh Maith or the Good People...are said to be of middle nature between Man and Angel, as were Daemons thought to be of old; of intelligent fluidous Spirits, and light changeable bodies (lyke those called Astral) somewhat of the nature of a condensed cloud, and best seen in twilight. These bodies be so pliable through the sublety of Spirits that agitate them, that they can make them appear or disappear at pleasure8]

Although in modern culture they are often depicted as young, sometimes winged, humanoids of small stature, they originally were depicted much differently: tall, radiant, angelic beings or short.... Diminutive fairies of one kind or another have been recorded for centuries, but occur alongside the human-sized beings ....Various animals have also been described as fairies.... shape shifting....various black dogs.....In some folklore fairies have green eyes and often bite. Though they can confuse one with their words, fairies cannot lie. They hate being told 'thank you', as they see it as a sign of one forgetting the good deed done, and want something that'll guarantee remembrance.....One popular belief was that they were the dead, or some subclass of the dead. The Irish banshee (Irish Gaelic bean sí or Scottish Gaelic bean shìth, which both mean "fairy woman") is sometimes described as a ghost....Another view held that the fairies were an intelligent species, distinct from humans and angels. In alchemy in particular they were regarded as elementals, such as gnomes and sylphs, as described by Paracelsus.This is uncommon in folklore...One popular story held that when the angels revolted, God ordered the gates shut; those still in heaven remained angels, those in hell became devils, and those caught in between became fairies... belief was the fairies were demons entirely.... The hobgoblin, once a friendly household spirit, became a wicked goblin...may be why Oberon, in A Midsummer Night's Dream, carefully observed that neither he nor his court feared the church bells....The belief in their angelic nature was less common than that they were the dead, but still found popularity, especially in Theosophist circles....Many of the Irish tales of the Tuatha Dé Danann refer to these beings as fairies, though in more ancient times they were regarded as Goddesses and Gods....They came to be seen as another race, or possibly spirits, and were believed to live in an Otherworld that was variously described as existing underground, in hidden hills (many of which were ancient burial mounds), or across the Western Sea....In old Celtic fairy lore the sidhe (fairy folk) are immortals living in the ancient barrows and cairns. .... several Otherworld realms including Mag Mell (the Pleasant Plain), Emain Ablach (the Fortress of Apples or the Land of Promise or the Isle of Women) Here we find the Silver Bough that allowed a living mortal to enter and withdraw from the Otherworld or Land of the Gods. According to legend, the Fairy Queen sometimes offered the branch to worthy mortals, granting them safe passage and food during their stay.

gulp: it being dangerous to eat food in both Fairyland and Hades, and both the dead and fairies living underground.

I think the tree is the silver branch or golden bough for the big ones and the blossoms on each branch are the nature spirits. If you are lucky and are 'given' (ie imagine you are given) a branch. They seem to like cakes to be left out as do mice. If you break something for them then they know you really have given it to them. Tombs are full of lovely broken things. mostly they like to communicate with us and this is such a nice time to do it.

Electrum aplogy - two thirds gold one third silver in early Egypt. Sorry Trio.

* smoke, embers (not in iron grate), clouds, steam, candlelight, and another Orman or Leo related was a flock of birds reeling round the magnetic lines of an elemental if you are lucky enough to see this. As you arrive on Salisbury Plain quite possibly and leave the car (& keys and mobile?).

reve x why not send your friends a spirit or genie for christmas?

because they will lose and abuse it no doubt

09-11-2011, 12:50 PM
That geni in a bottle comes into this ymn. This is for the one stuck inside you:

In ancient Roman religion, the genius was the individual instance of a general divine nature that is present in every individual person, place or thing.
The rational powers and abilities of each and every human being were attributed to his soul, which was a genius. Each individual place had a genius (genius loci) and so did powerful objects, such as volcanoes. The concept extended to some specifics: the genius of the theatre, of vineyards, and of festivals, which made performances successful, grapes grow, and celebrations succeed, respectively. It was extremely important in the Roman mind to propitiate the appropriate genii for the major undertakings and events of their lives.

....Multiple events could therefore be attributed to the same and different divinities and a person could be the same as and different from his genius. They were not distinct, as the later guardian angels, and yet the Genius Augusti was not exactly the same as Augustus either. As a natural outcome of these beliefs, the pleasantness of a place, the strength of an oath, an ability of a person, were regarded as intrinsic to the object, and yet were all attributable to genius; hence all of the modern meanings of the word. This point of view is not attributable to any one civilization; its roots are lost in prehistory. The Etruscans had such beliefs at the beginning of history, but then so did the Greeks, the native Italics and many other peoples in the near and middle east

Guardian angels appeared in Christianity subsequent to the proscription of the genius cult. The degree to which the concept of guardian angel was influenced by the genius is debatable. Philosophically the two resemble each other only superficially. A guardian angel is totally distinct from its ward and is not God, but is his messenger. Only people have guardian angels. Its sole function is to shepherd its ward. The genius is not distinct from a person, place or thing and represents the energy inherent in it, assuming all its powers and achievements. It is not just a "tutelary spirit".

Similarly the ancient genius concept was used to translate Arabic jinnīy, "spirit" or "demon" in the Arabian Nights, becoming French and English genie. Philosophically a genie is not a genius: it too is a distinct being that may or may not be present to a human. Whether the Arabic derived from the Latin during the Roman empire is debatable; the word has a good Arabic etymology (see under Genie). wiki

So you are not always you and we may indeed all be the same according to the Romans. They kept altars in their homes with murals of their genii. It is curious that the genius is often deopicted as a snake and many houses have had a propitious snake. Another possible derivation for reptilian theory and underlying the snake religions (US today) and Ophites (Ophis is Greek for snake)

Gnostic sects deriving their origin, as Irenaeus maintains, from the heresy of Simon Magus. Here the origin of the mixed world is most completely represented. Creation began as a series of emanations:

Bythos (Depth):
Father of All (the First Man):
Ennoia, the Son of Man (the Second Man):
The Holy Spirit, the First Woman:
The Abyss


For this name properly belongs to those who give the serpent the place of honour in their system, but the present system agrees with Christian doctrine in making the serpent and his attendant demons the enemy and persecutor of the human race. In the passage immediately following the chapter we have analysed, Irenaeus shows acquaintance with a section of the school who may be called Ophite in the proper sense of the word, some teaching that Sophia (Wisdom) herself was the serpent

In India there is another mythology about snakes. Commonly known in Hindi as "Ichchhadhari" snakes. Such snakes can take the form of any living creature, but prefer human form. These mythical snakes possess a valuable gem called "Mani", which is more brilliant than diamond. There are many stories in India about greedy people trying to possess this gem and ending up getting killed.

(Reve: a bit of India on this:Welcome to Maniyassery family temple website.....This was a very old temple of Gandharva/Naga VAIKOM MARAVANTHURUTH MANIYASSERY The pulluvar of Kerala are closely connected to the serpent worship. One group among these people consider the snake gods as their presiding deity and perform certain sacrifices and sing songs. This is called ‘Pulluvan Pattu’. This is performed in the houses of the lower castes as well as those of the higher castes, in addition to serpent temples (http://maniyassery.org/swamy/)

wiki The Ouroboros is a symbol associated with many different religions and customs, and is claimed to be related to Alchemy. The Ouroboros or Oroboros is a snake eating its own tail in a clock-wise direction (from the head to the tail) in the shape of a circle, representing manifestation of one's own life and rebirth, leading to immortality.

(reve: you talking to yourself at the end of your life)

The snake is one of the 12 celestial animals of Chinese Zodiac, in the Chinese calendar.

Snakes have also been widely revered, such as in ancient Greece, where the serpent was seen as a healer, and Asclepius carried two intertwined on his wand, a symbol seen today on many ambulances.

In religious terms, the snake is arguably the most important animal in ancient Mesoamerica. “In states of ecstasy, lords dance a serpent dance; great descending snakes adorn and support buildings from Chichen Itza to Tenochtitlan, and the Nahuatl word coatl meaning serpent or twin, forms part of primary deities such as Mixcoatl, Quetzalcoatl, and Coatlicue.” In both Maya and Aztec calendars, the fifth day of the week was known as Snake Day.

Mani again.

reve x

09-11-2011, 12:59 PM
I would think that coatl in the name Quetzalcoatl means twin, not snake. It can mean either but they see a snake. It is the 'ka' in Egyptian, our heavenly twin. Amend reptilian theory. The Ymn is not a snake after all.

09-11-2011, 06:09 PM
Here is another prophet called Mani:

Mani the parakeet (hatched 1997), also called Mani the parrot, is a Malaysian-born Rose-ringed Parakeet who resides in Singapore. It has been an astrologer 'assistant' to M. Muniyappan since 2005, working from his Little India fortune-telling shop along Serangoon Road. M. Muniyappan is locally known to makes his predictions using a simplified form of cartomancy.

Mani became a celebrity in Singapore, and later internationally, when he picked the correct winners for all of the 2010 FIFA World Cup quarter-final ties, as well as the Spain-Germany semi-final. However, Mani failed to predict the Spain – Netherlands final by choosing Netherlands as the winner of the 2010 World Cup. At one point on July 5, 2010, a day before the Uruguay-Netherlands semi-final match, Mani topped Google's "Hot Searches" in Singapore.

Prior to his World Cup stint, Mani and his owner M. Muniyappan, used to see an average of 10 customers a day. Following his World Cup success, this increased to around 10 customers an hour. wiki

Our parrot Loretta is nearly 60. Winston Churchill's macaw was over a hundred and may still be alive. Very clever birds. I sometimes wonder if the falcon was originally a nice vegetarian parrot. They have twin profiles but opposite natures.

reve x

10-11-2011, 07:52 AM
taught me to pick myself up, dust myself down and keep trying to do what is right. Whatever others think. That is what he did. I will keep going in spite of the 'looks' I am getting from those who should know better. Good morning to all here

reve x

10-11-2011, 10:28 AM
"Did/do any of you have a fear of leaving the emin? We were blatantly told that if we left all sorts of occult nasties would come and feed on us which I think is typical with cult management activity. It was a scary prospect to leave when I did, and now see the threat as being unfair."

Sorry to go back some way on this thread, but I wanted to talk a little about a basic division of interests that I think became more prevalent in Emin people as the years went on.

I left in 1992, after 14 years, and no one told me I would be consumed by occult nasties. Similarly, I'd been teaching there for 12 years, and had never said anything like that to anyone leaving. My leader had a conversation with me before I left, and his view was more that I'd decided to 'do my own thing', rather than helping the cause. I didn't agree but understood his point. My best friend, who remained a senior figure in the Emin, kept in regular contact after I left, but never criticised me for leaving or tried to get me to rejoin. Sure, I had dreams and felt guilty at leaving my friends and colleagues, but nothing jumped out at me from the shadows of the shadows.

Where I see a division appeared is in just this kind of point. For me, whether or not the occult and the various things that can live within it are real is not really the point. If for example, I shield myself 'electrically' before going into a potentially hostile situation, it's more to do with priming my attitude than actual unseen materials. I found Leo's Directions series far more inspiring than the more 'occulty' stuff. I don't believe, in other words, that having occult knowledge will necessarily make you a more aware, insightful and wise person. It might help your thinking, used as analogy, but whether or not it's 'real' is almost irrelevant. Its elements are more after-effects of human thinking than causative features; or, rather, they can be causative if a person is submissive to them.

Me and a friend went out one night while his partner was at an Emin meeting. We had no idea what they'd been working on but when we got back to his place, and before she spoke, we told her she'd been working on gold. "How did you know that?" she said. Then we pointed to her face which was covered with tiny gold flecks. Yes, amazing! And I'm still telling the story now. But it doesn't actually mean anything, unless you use the implications of it towards some real personal development.

Someone mentioned Alternative 3 earlier. Forgive me if I didn't read all the points about that book but the fact was, while a lot of Emin people saw it as a 'true' revelation about conspiracy, the authors later admitted it was a fake. The Fortean Times interviewed one of them years after, who revealed it had all been made up but was surprised at the strength of reaction in people who believed it. A friend of mine who worked in TV actually recognised some of the 'scientists' in the film as actors. But even if it had been true, so what? Okay, the world's full of conspiracy, but how is knowing that going to make any difference to your own spirituality?

It's similar to what happened with ley hunters. Back in the 70s, it was all about energy lines, the aura of the planet, landing stations for UFOs, etc. But a point came when some people in the movement became more interested in what the phenomena might mean at a more basic psychological level, and how it had affected the history of person and place. Which led to fascinating research into death roads and spirit paths, and how these things affected, for example, folk lore and story-telling. What had to be given up in order to follow that direction, however, was the notion that leylines are primarily some kind of occult energy source. And the old guard didn't like that; they still don't. So there was a big split in the movement, which exists today. As an interested outsider (mostly), I find the people who are exploring the more psychological relevance of leylines far more inspiring than those who persist with their divining rods and pendulums.

10-11-2011, 01:46 PM
I am so inspired by this post.

By the way I mentioned alternative 3. Very clever book. It was sending out a hidden message and quite prophetic too. Just like so many gospels and apocalyptic works.

Old paths is what I would say about leylines and that is where the energy derives I am sure. There are now barrows and festival sites, stones, churches and yews all along them put there before John Michel. Glastonbury is such a good example. Before the hippy invasion I was walking through some fields there when an old boy came out of his little cottage to ask if we were looking for Merlin's golden coffin. The locals I met around there in my youth told me much about what has always been there - history of a 'religous' nature. From Joseph of Arimathea, the first Christian church (Celtic), The Abbey, St Dunstan, King Arthur, Dee's magic gold-making powder, the Chalice spring and now the druids, witches, temples, retreats, festivals. It is a crossroads. Meaningless now but when this country was clothed in impenetrable and terrifying forest this meant everything from trade to worship (of the light in a dark world). Now we mourn the trees and debate the purpose of the many signposts,

All true and confirmed by archaeology and maps whether you believe that all religions were started by a dream from a messenger of god or not. But the thing I like about all the theories espoused passionately on such an obscure subject, about say power lines cutting ley lines. They keep the flame alive even as they mum their development. Act out a part they wish to play in real life (pretend to be Merlin is a good example).

The mystery of men is that they put such interests over their homes and families and will cross the seas to fight about dream interpretations and someone else's imagination.

I call them Leo lines by the way, especially the dragon line! I think he lived on or near it both at Burlyns and the Pig Farm, but may be wrong. The long line from Cornwall to Norfolk. I am up and down it frequently too.
Love Honour & Respect


10-11-2011, 05:52 PM
Reading about the great Tibetans is very rewarding if you have an open mind to what they are really saying. I have copied a bit below about the great lama who was known for materialising gold dust. These were people who from an early age were given transmissions supposedly in a direct line from Buddha, or perhaps a great teacher.

We are lucky to have had Leo show us. They lived many lives of hard study and disciplines just to get to hear about these things. Many are mn's. This is wiki minced up to whet appetites for more:Nyala Pema Dündul (1816-1872),….
Most sources state that the teacher in 1872 attained rainbow body…Many of his students attained rainbow body (e.g. Ayu Khandro and

Patrul Rinpoche established a teaching centre in the vicinity of Dzagyal Monastery and he repaired the large complex of walls of ‘mani stones' (Wylie: do-bum) built by his previous incarnation
Mani stones are stone plates, rocks and/or pebbles, inscribed with the six syllabled mantra of Avalokiteshvara[1] (Om mani padme hum, hence the name "Mani stone"), as a form of prayer in Tibetan Buddhism. The term Mani stone may also be used in a loose sense to refer to stones on which any mantra or devotional designs (such as ashtamangala) are inscribed. Mani stones are intentionally placed along the roadsides and rivers or placed together to form mounds or cairns or sometimes long walls, as an offering to spirits of place or genius loci. Creating and carving mani stones as devotional or intentional process art is a traditional sadhana of piety to yidam. Mani stones are a form of devotional cintamani.

As a scholar and meditator Mipham was so accomplished that he was enthroned as an emanation of Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom. Most of the Fifth volume of his collected works consists of works related to Manjusri.

In one short text he prescribes various methods of divination (all drawn, Mipham emphasizes, from Tantric scriptures and commentaries) that make use of unusual sources of augury such as: the vicariously overheard chatter of women; sudden appearance of various animals, especially birds; weather phenomena; the shape, size and color of flames in the agnihotra or fire puja; the quality of burning butter lamps, especially the size of the flame, the amount and shape of smoke that arises; and the size and shape of the carbon deposit on the wick.
When some of his scholarly rivals thought it inappropriate for a monk to devote so much time to matters of future events, Mipham wrote a short essay explaining the purpose of divination, citing sources in the Sutras and Tantras where the utility and value of divination are explained.

Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok was born in 1933, the third day of the first month of the year of the Water Bird, in the rugged washul Sertar region of Kham, a vast expanse of high-plateau grasslands. He is described as having come out of his mother’s womb in a meditation posture, reciting the mantra of Majushri, “Om ah ra pa tsa na dhi” as soon as he was born, which he was to chant over 13 billion times throughout his life.

Kyabje Khyentse Chokyi Lodro of Dzongsar was the greatest master of many lineages of this century. He was born in the Water Snake year of the fifteenth Rabjung (1893) at Rekhe Ajam near Kathok Monastery. His father was a tantric master called Gyurme Tsewang Gyatso, the grandson of Terton Dudul Rolpatsal of Ser Valley of Amdo, and his mother was Tsultrim Tso of Ser Valley of Amdo. His father named him Jamyang Chokyi Lodro. At the age of six, Khyentse Rinpoche learned to read texts with his uncle with little effort.

He had many visions, accomplished many attainments, and manifested many spiritual powers. There were many incidents of his displaying powers. Once he blessed a new image, and it became hot to the touch. When he blessed the Mahakala image of the Dzang Mahakala temple, the image moved as if it were alive. When he prepared ambrosia, beams of light arched around the temple. At the time of an empowerment of Vaishravana, gold dust rained through the air. Many times the distribution of a small amount of blessing pills or nectar became an inexhaustible supply for a huge assembly of devotees.

In the Vajrayana tradition, now preserved mainly in Tibetan lineages, it has long been recognized that certain important teachings are expressed in a form of secret symbolic language known as saṃdhyā-bhāṣā, 'Twilight Language'. Mudrās and mantras, maṇḍalas and cakras, those mysterious devices and diagrams that were so much in vogue in the pseudo-Buddhist hippie culture of the 1960s, were all examples of Twilight Language

Vajrayana Buddhism is esoteric, in the sense that the transmission of certain teachings only occurs directly from teacher to student during an initiation or empowerment and cannot be simply learned from a book. wiki

Reve: it is transferred clairvoyantly

10-11-2011, 06:37 PM
For any who do not know what I am writing about something else we learn:

(Reve: The ‘twilight’ language (night school), sometimes called the ‘green language’ by occultists and the much nicer Thothian:-)

(wiki)In mythology, medieval literature and occultism, the language of the birds is postulated as a mystical, perfect divine language, green language, adamic language, enochian language, angelic language or a mythical or magical language used by birds to communicate with the initiated

In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse "thought" and Muninn (Old Norse "memory" or "mind" are a pair of ravens that fly all over the world, Midgard, and bring the god Odin information.

(Reve: From then Odin is represented with his two birds, once ravens now seen as eagles, then a double headed one).

Scholars have linked Odin's relation to Huginn and Muninn to shamanic practice. John Lindow relates Odin's ability to send his "thought" (Huginn) and "mind" (Muninn) to the trance-state journey of shamans. Lindow says the Grímnismál stanza where Odin worries about the return of Huginn and Muninn "would be consistent with the danger that the shaman faces on the trance-state journey.",,,, the two ravens, as Odin's companions, appear to derive from much earlier times Anthony Winterbourne connects Huginn and Muninn to the Norse concepts of the fylgja—a concept with three characteristics; shape-shifting abilities, good fortune, and the guardian spirit—and the hamingja—the ghostly double of a person that may appear in the form of an animal. …. and that the names Huginn and Muninn "demand more explanation than is usually provided."

... As he has tasted dragon blood, he starts to understand the birds' song...

In Sufism, the language of birds is a mystical language of angels. The Conference of the Birds (mantiq at-tair) is a mystical poem of 4647 verses by the 12th century Persian poet Farid al-Din Attar[4]
In the Jerusalem Talmud (Louis Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, 1909), Solomon's proverbial wisdom was due to his being granted understanding of the language of birds by God.
In Egyptian Arabic, hieroglyphic writing is called "the alphabet of the birds". In Ancient Egyptian itself, the hieroglyphic form of writing was given the name medu-netjer ("words of the godFolklore
The concept is also known from many folk tales (including Welsh, Russian, German, Estonian, Greek, Romany), where usually the protagonist is granted the gift of understanding the language of the birds either by some magical transformation, or as a boon by the king of birds. The birds then inform or warn the hero about some danger or hidden treasure.

In Kabbalah, Rennaissance magic, and alchemy, the language of the birds was considered a secret and perfect language and the key to perfect knowledge, sometimes also called the langue verte, or green language (Jean Julien Fulcanelli, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa de occulta philosophia).

I vividly recall Leo's expression when he would say the name 'Agrippa'. Very green language skills the man had.

reve x

so much to do so little time

10-11-2011, 07:13 PM
I forgot to explain an obvious but most important thing. Iron is said to be poisonous to fairies. They do not like it and stay well clear. That can be your fire grate/wood burning stove, keys, a knife particularly, a car, mobile, and 'fairy lights'.

Why? Perhaps its magnetic properties. It is their kryptonite. That is why they do not like to come in and usually decline (especially on a tree sawn down I imagine). A nice fallen branch might be ideal and a special place in the garden without wire to hold it in place (Saturn unbound time).

mn x

10-11-2011, 09:04 PM
Some feel as though they missed out on something. They want to be a part but seem to be bystanders, albeit at all the best events.

If you can follow the trail it is a bit like this. You want a spirit and 'summon' it. You establish a connection and identify with it. Now you are on the same frequency except for actual achievement maybe. Mumming.

Then perhaps you go back and find yourself in that life and then coming through many others to get where you started- that head meeting its tail again. Then you have done a very great deal and you are watching with great interest as 'you' awake to who you are 'now'*. Unfortunately it is harder to actually believe because you had imagined this and you cannot kid your'self'. Now you have the proof. You left it behind and can find it.

But no time to mull over it - time to start work again.

* If not this lifetime .....


11-11-2011, 03:26 PM
One can write volumes on the wish fulfilling jewel and I have have always written too much but nowadays much prefer wiki's modest way with words to declare the stark facts:

Cintamani (Sanskrit; Devanagari: चिन्तामणि) also spelled as Chintamani (or the Chintamani Stone) is a wish-fulfilling jewel within both Hindu and Buddhist traditions, equivalent to the philosopher's stone in Western alchemy.

In Buddhism it is held by the bodhisattvas, Avalokiteshvara (This bodhisattva is variably depicted as male or female ("Lord of the World")... and is said to be incarnated in the Dalai Lama, the Karmapa and other high lamas) and Ksitigarbha (known for his vow to take responsibility for the instruction of all beings in the six worlds between the death of Gautama (Sakyamuni) Buddha and the rise of Maitreya Buddha, as well as his vow not to achieve Buddhahood until all hells are emptied... carries a staff to force open the gates of hell and a wish-fulfilling jewel to light up the darkness)

By reciting the Dharani of Cintamani, Buddhist tradition maintains that one attains the Wisdom of Buddha, able to understand the truth of the Buddha, and turn afflictions into Bodhi. It is said to allow one to see the Holy Retinue of Amitabha (Celesial Buddha) on one's deathbed. In Tibetan Buddhist tradition the Chintamani is sometimes depicted as a luminous pearl and is in the possession of several of different forms of the Buddha.

Within Hinduism it is connected with the gods, Vishnu and Ganesha. In Hindu tradition it is often depicted as a fabulous jewel in the possession of the Naga king or as on the forehead of the Makara. The Yoga Vasistha, originally written in the 10th century AD, contains a story about the cintamani.

In Buddhism the Cintamani is said to be one of four relics that came in a chest that fell from the sky... the reign of king Lha Thothori Nyantsen of Tibet... Several years later, two mysterious strangers appeared at the court of the king, explaining the four relics, which included the Buddha's bowl (possibly a Singing Bowl) and a Charmstone (jewel, crystal or gem) with the Om Mani Padme Hum mantra inscribed on it, known as a mani stone. These few objects were the bringers of the Dharma to Tibet.

The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism's ruyizhu entry says.

A maṇi-jewel; magical jewel, which manifests whatever one wishes for (Skt. maṇi, cintā-maṇi, cintāmaṇi-ratna). According to one's desires, treasures, clothing and food can be manifested, while sickness and suffering can be removed, water can be purified, etc. It is a metaphor for the teachings and virtues of the Buddha. … Said to be obtained from the dragon-king of the sea, or the head of the great fish, Makara, or the relics of a Buddha.

The Kintamani mountainous region in Bali was named after cintamani.

yes much more where that comes from.

reve x

11-11-2011, 04:01 PM
2 bodhisattvas above so here are the other 2, this one we already know as Samhain from bonfire night as we prefer to call it.

Sri Lankan people venerates Samantabhadra Bodhisatva as Saman (also called Sumana, Samantha, Sumana Saman, Sinhalese: සුමන සමන් ‍දෙවි). The name Saman means "the rising morning sun". God Saman is considered one of the guardian deities of the island and Buddhism. His main shrine is located in Ratnapura, where there is an annual festival held in his honor.

Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Devanagari: समन्तभद्र; lit. Universal Worthy), is a bodhisattva in Mahayana Buddhism associated with Buddhist practice and meditation. Together with Shakyamuni Buddha and fellow bodhisattva Manjusri he forms the Shakyamuni trinity in Buddhism. He is the patron of the Lotus Sūtra and, according to the Avataṃsaka Sūtra, made the ten great vows which are the basis of a bodhisattva. In China, Samantabhadra is associated with action, whereas the bodhisattva Mañjuśrī is associated with wisdom. Samantabhadra is considered a primordial Buddha in indivisible yab-yum union with his consort Samantabhadri.

In the climax of the Gandhavyuha Sutra, the student Sudhana meets Samantabhadra Bodhisattva, who teaches him that wisdom only exists for the sake of putting it into practice; that it is only good insofar as it benefits all living beings.

In the Avataṃsaka Sūtra, the Buddha states that Samantabhadra Bodhisattva made ten great vows in his path to full Buddhahood:

1.To pay homage and respect to all Buddhas.
2.To praise all the Buddhas.
3.To make abundant offerings. (i.e. give generously)
4.To repent misdeeds and evil karmas.
5.To rejoice in others' merits and virtues.
6.To request the Buddhas to continue teaching.
7.To request the Buddhas to remain in the world.
8.To follow the teachings of the Buddhas at all times.
9.To accommodate and benefit all living beings.
10.To transfer all merits and virtues to benefit all beings.
The ten vows have become a common practice in East Asian Buddhism, particularly the tenth vow, with many Buddhists traditionally dedicating their merit and good works to all beings during Buddhist liturgies.

Known as Pǔxián in Chinese, he is sometimes shown in Chinese art with feminine characteristics, riding an elephant with six pairs of tusks while carrying a lotus leaf 'parasol' (Sanskrit: chhatra), bearing similar dress and features to some feminine depictions of Kuan Yin. It is in this guise that Samantabhadra is revered as the patron bodhisattva of the monasteries associated with Mount Emei in western China. Some believe that the white elephant mount of Samantabhadra was the same elephant that appeared to Queen Maya, the mother of the Buddha, to herald his birth.

reve: that one is another woman and 'primordial' Buddha. The other we have already met

Mañjuśrī (Skt: मञ्जुश्री) is a bodhisattva associated with transcendent wisdom (Skt. prajñā) in Mahāyāna Buddhism. In Esoteric Buddhism he is also taken as a meditational deity. The Sanskrit name Mañjuśrī can be translated as "Gentle Glory".consort in some traditions is Saraswati.

Je Tsongkhapa, who founded the Gelug lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, is said to have received his teachings from visions of Mañjuśrī.

Mañjuśrī is depicted as a male bodhisattva ... riding on a blue lion, or sitting on the skin of a lion. This represents the use of wisdom to tame the mind, which is compared to riding or subduing a ferocious lion.

reve: well they would bring a lion into it

mn x

11-11-2011, 06:28 PM
There have been a number of successful Indian mystics in my lifetime, Maharishi, Maharaji, Bhagwan and Krishnamurti etyc. the one who they say could make gold dust rain down was 'Sai Baba' who only died recently. Whether he was just a conjuror is doubtful, but he could do that very well. Most gurus have a party trick. But he was more than that - look at this:-

In 1944, a mandir (temple) for Sathya Sai Baba's devotees was built near the village of Puttaparthi. It is now referred to as the "old mandir." In 1954, Sathya Sai Baba established a small free General Hospital in the village of Puttaparthi.

In 2011, shortly before his death, he was listed by Watkins Review as one of the 100 most spiritually influential people in the world.

Sathya Sai Baba founded a large number of schools and colleges, hospitals, and other charitable institutions in India and abroad, the total value of which is usually estimated at Rs. 40,000 crore (US$ 9 billion). However, estimates as high as 1.4 trillion rupees (about US$ 31.5bn) have also been made. After his death, questions about the manner in which the finances of the organization were managed led to speculations of impropriety, with some reports suggesting that suitcases containing cash and/or gold had been removed from his personal lodgings.

On 17 June 2011, officials from the Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust ...opened his private residence in the presence of government, bank and tax department official In the residence, which had been sealed since his death, they inventoried 98 kg of gold ornaments, approximate value Rs 21 crore (US$4.7m), 307 kg of silver ornaments, approximate value Rs 1.6 crore (US$0.36m), and Rs 11.6 crore (US$2.6m) in cash. .. The gold and other items, accumulated as religious gifts to Sai Baba by devotees from all over the world during his 70 year career, were inventoried, assessed, and placed in secure storage. In July, district authorities found an additional Rs 77 lakh (US$0.17m) in valuables in another 4 rooms, including valuable watches. The total value is believed to exceed 7.8 million US dollars. Also found at Yajurmandir were many articles routinely given away as gifts in various ceremonies to devotees and those who did 'seva' (service), including thousands of pure silk sarees, dhotis, shirts, 500 pairs of shoes, a large number of silver and gold “mangala sutrams”, and precious stones such as diamonds....In July 2011, a search of his Bangalore-area ashram found 6kg of gold coins and jewellery, 245kg of silver articles and Rs 80 lakh in cash.

Parallels with the transition after the passing of other major gurus in India, for example Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) or Mata Anandamayi, suggest that the transition in managing the large Sai organization may not be easy.

I know people who met him who were themselves quite aware. We all like to check out waht is and is not possible. A showman for God like the late, great clairaudient Joseph Benjamin who, after looking deeply at us one night in a hall in Kentish Town, told a few Emins including 'Benjamin' and myself, what was in store and then asked the entire congregation to pray for our work.

Some can really 'see'.

reve x

11-11-2011, 07:04 PM
it goes on but now then talking birds come into it:

wiki: Description in Upanishads
The relationship between Paramātmā and Atman is likened to the indwelling God and the soul within one's heart like two birds on a tree.

Like two birds of golden plumage, inseparable companions, the individual self and the immortal Self are perched on the branches of the selfsame tree. The former tastes of the sweet and bitter fruits of the tree; the latter, tasting of neither, calmly observes. (Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.1)

They are two birds, close companions, clasping the same tree. Of the two, one eats sweet fruit; the other looks on without eating. On this same tree a person, sunk and grieving in slavery, is deluded, but upon observing the Lord happy and great, becomes free of sorrow. (Shvetashvatara Upanishad 4.7)

The Supreme Being that dwells in our heart is dearer to us than even our children, wealth and everything else. (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.4.8)

AdvaitaIn Advaita philosophy, individual souls are called Jīvātman, and the Highest Brahman is called Paramātman. The Jivatman and the Paramatman are known to be one and the same when the Jivatman attains the true knowledge of the Brahman ...

According to Brahma Kumaris religion, Paramatma (Supreme Soul) is called Shiva, or Shiva Baba. His form is a point of infinitessemal light and his abode is Paramdham or Nirvana.

I have to say that one needs a basic understanding of the core or bird language to make sense of paragraphs like the above, but I will not insult anyone's intelligence by pointing out when MN comes in, and where you reader are in this tale.

Which brings me to that put another way, where reader are you? It is not ancient culture and religion it is live and you. Assuming you are here now.

reve x

12-11-2011, 04:36 PM
I suddenly remembered something Leo often said 'slowly slowly catchy monkey'.

What MNkey - Thoth?

Today is a 'catching spirit' day which started with a chain letter email from an American magician. I send them back as they are curses which work by getting you to curse even more people. It is a negative energy - you can have great fortune if you send the curse on or suffer the curse. This kind of process sucks out any luck hanging about and it is supposed to go back up the chain. Send them back (three times across the globe they usually say) to whoever started this. They will then get millions of them and deserve that.

This kind of malignancy includes making and sharing computer viruses. Isn't it depressing what one psychopath can do to nations? But it is because one enlightened person can do the opposite, and it is time for that, as the two opposing forces are divided by a line in time we call 'now.

It is war talk again. You can read the hawk 'language' as it is the same as the last ira war, and the cold one before. It will suck in many other nations and be made religous. One empire will try to bankrupt another, break their satellites and so on. If the world was on talking rather than fighting terms we would all get on fine. But even the Emin is not on talking terms with itself and there is not much hope of the unenlightened talking either. That is mildly depressing but typically what happens just before dawn.

reve x

12-11-2011, 06:15 PM
are an interesting secy crushed by early christians. They 'venerate' Simion Magus who was a magician mentioned to Jesus as one casting out devils in his name and about which Jesus said that is fine by me. But he had a Simon of his own, John the Baptist's disciple Simon Peter who went on to found Roman Catholicism and its off shoots. At the time the Samaritans also venerated a Simon Gitta, all the Simons were magicians.

They venerated Helena too, are worth looking up and here is an extract from their code:

wiki:...This is He who has stood, stands and will stand, a male-female power like the preëxisting Boundless Power, which has neither beginning nor end, existing in oneness. For it is from this that the Thought in the oneness proceeded and became two.

So he was one; for having her in himself, he was alone, not however first, although preëxisting, but being manifested from himself to himself, he became second. Nor was he called Father before (Thought) called him Father.

As, therefore, producing himself by himself, he manifested to himself his own Thought, so also the Thought that was manifested did not make the Father, but contemplating him hid him—that is to say the Power—in herself, and is male-female, Power and Thought.

Hence they pair with each other being one, for there is no difference between Power and Thought. From the things above is discovered Power, and from those below Thought.

In the same manner also that which was manifested from them although being one is yet found as two, the male-female having the female in itself. Thus Mind is in Thought—things inseparable from one another—which although being one are yet found as two.

The Simonians were variously accused of using magic and theurgy, incantations and love-potions; declaring idolatry a matter of indifference that was neither good nor bad, proclaiming all sex to be perfect love, and altogether leading very disorderly, immoral lives. Eusebius calls the Simonians the most immoral and depraved of mankind. In general, they were said to regard nothing in itself as good or bad by nature: it was not good works that made men blessed, in the next world, but the grace bestowed by Simon and Helena on those who followed them.

To this end, the Simonians were said to venerate Simon under the image of Zeus, and Helena under that of Athene. However, Hippolytus adds that "if any one, on seeing the images either of Simon or Helen, shall call them by those names, he is cast out, as showing ignorance of the mysteries." From this it is evident that the Simonians did not allow that they actually worshipped their founders. In the Clementine Recognitions Helena is called Luna, which may mean that the images were allegorical representations of the sun and moon.

Mythical characters as far as we can tell, but the secret founders of Catholicism

reve x

12-11-2011, 06:28 PM
like most sects the Simonians spawned another:

Like Simon, Menander—a pupil and, after Simon's death, his most important successor - also proclaimed himself to be the one sent of God, the Messias. In the same way he taught the creation of the world by angels who were sent by the Ennoia. He asserted that men received immortality and the resurrection by his baptism and practiced magical arts. The sect named after him, the Menandrians, continued to exist for a considerable length of time. ...

Simon the Sorcerer or Simon the Magician, in Latin Simon Magus, (Greek Σίμων ὁ μάγος) was a Samaritan magus or religious figure and a convert to Christianity, baptised by Philip the Apostle, whose later confrontation with Peter is recorded in Acts 8:9-24. The sin of simony, or paying for position and influence in the church, is named for Simon. The Apostolic Constitutions also accuses him of lawlessness. According to Recognitions, Simon's parents were named Antonius and Rachel.

Surviving traditions about Simon appear in anti-heretical texts, such as those of Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, and Epiphanius, where he is often regarded as the source of all heresies. Justin wrote that nearly all the Samaritans in his time were adherents of a certain Simon of Gitta, a village not far from Flavia Neapolis. Irenaeus held him as being one of the founders of Gnosticism and the sect of the Simonians. Hippolytus quotes from a work he attributes to Simon or his followers the Simonians, Apophasis Megale, or Great Declaration. According to the early church heresiologists Simon is also supposed to have written several lost treatises, two of which bear the titles The Four Quarters of the World and The Sermons of the Refuter.

In apocryphal works including the Acts of Peter, Pseudo-Clementines, and the Epistle of the Apostles, Simon also appears as a formidable sorcerer with the ability to levitate and fly at will.

They are so not on the same side these people but all identical. It is down to human jealousy, suspicion and commercial instinct propably.

reve x

12-11-2011, 09:27 PM
with me me me I imagine that I hear

you are Sudhana:

wiki The Gandavyuha Sutra
The last chapter of the Avatamsaka circulates as a separate and important text known as the Gaṇḍavyūha Sutra, which details the pilgrimage of the youth Sudhana at the behest of the bodhisattva Manjusri. Sudhana would converse with 52 masters in his quest for enlightenment. The antepenultimate master of Sudhana's pilgrimage is Maitreya*. It is here that Sudhana encounters the Tower of Maitreya, which along with Indra's net**, is a most startling metaphor for the infinite:

In the middle of the great tower... he saw the billion-world universe... and everywhere there was Sudhana at his feet... Thus Sudhana saw Maitreya's practices of... transcendence over countless eons (kalpa), from each of the squares of the check board wall... In the same way Sudhana... saw the whole supernal manifestation, was perfectly aware of it, understood it, contemplated it, used it as a means, beheld it, and saw himself there.
The penultimate master that Sudhana visits is the Manjusri Bodhisattva, the bodhisattva of great wisdom. Thus, one of the grandest of pilgrimages approaches its conclusion by revisiting where it began. The Gandavyhua suggests that with a subtle shift of perspective we may come to see that the enlightenment that the pilgrim so fervently sought was not only with him at every stage of his journey, but before it began as well—that enlightenment is not something to be gained, but "something" the pilgrim never departed from. The final master that Sudhana visits is Samantabhadra Bodhisattva, who teaches him that wisdom only exists for the sake of putting it into practice; that it is only good insofar as it benefits all living beings.According to tradition, Maitreya will be the fifth Buddha of the present kalpa (aeon) and his arrival will occur after the teachings of the current Gautama Buddha (teachings aka. Dharma) are less meaningfully communicated.

*Maitreya's coming is characterized by a number of physical events. For example, the oceans are predicted to decrease in size, allowing Maitreya to traverse them freely. These events will also enable the reintroduction of the "true" Dharma to the people, in turn allowing the construction of a new world.

His arrival signifies the end of the middle time, the time between fourth Buddha, Gautama Buddha, and the fifth Buddha, Maitreya, which is viewed as a low point of human existence. According to the Cakkavatti Sutta: The Wheel-turning Emperor, Digha Nikaya 26 of the Sutta Pitaka of the Pāli Canon), Maitreya Buddha will be born in a time when humans will live to an age of eighty thousand years, in the city of Ketumatī (present Benares), whose king will be the Cakkavattī Sankha. Sankha will live in the palace where once dwelt King Mahāpanadā, but later he will give the palace away and will himself become a follower of Maitreya Buddha.[1]

**Buddhist concepts of interpenetration hold that all phenomena are intimately connected; for the Huayan school, Indra's net symbolizes a universe where infinitely repeated mutual relations exist between all members of the universe. This idea is communicated in the image of the interconnectedness of the universe as seen in the net of the Vedic god Indra, whose net hangs over his palace on Mount Meru, the axis mundi of Vedic cosmology and Vedic mythology. Indra's net has a multifaceted jewel at each vertex, and each jewel is reflected in all of the other jewels.

Numerous men have claimed to be the Maitreya over the centuries and hundreds of thousands of their followers have been killed. More than men claiming to be the Mahdi and Messiah. Why do they do it? Ah everyone wants power but not of the mind!

reve x

13-11-2011, 01:44 PM
Looking around this website I notice it has the usual shocking titled threads put their by friend and foe alike. One seeking to undermine and defile the other. It is a waste of precious energy. There is an inevitability about things. Some will see that to be a global conspiracy and some may see the guiding hand of chaos. The reality is that no one can stop it, either on their own or collectively. They will be undermined by someone who does not agree. We all know that and are impotent. You can refuse to fight but you cannot stop the war if you see what i mean.

But you can. This war is from above as usual, imprinted eternally, repetitively in our cultures. It is the jealousy of the gods. Played out beautifully in November sunshine at 11 today at Westminster cenotaph. Monarchs, armies, veterans, poppies, wreaths, silence and music 'lest we forget'.

The Emin has to stop the disagreements above which are causing the wars and anguish below and blocking us from moving on as a creation.

Silence is respectful and fine up to a point but the jealous gods need a functional ogdoad to put them in their place. It is extraordinary how most people will only take this from their parents. We are the parents now. If we can melt a cloud, we can stop a war and educate a world. Not even for us, but for everyone but us. The kids. Otherwise there is no point treading the path - that is where it leads.

reve x

* It is tragic how callous some of the 'gods' above are, or even spiteful about the beings on which they feed. And how callous so many of us are about the 'foreign' lives of the too many that our governments destroyed in our names. This is a good reason to open the immigration and benefit doors to all may i add. The UK owes the world and has an enormous karmic debt, so do most nations which have not been exploited themselves. We can only pay that back by producing a solution in time. Do we wish to be the solution or the problem? That depends on whether we like the solution doesn't it, otherwise we will fight it to the death and have our name on a war memorial. Well there is a peaceful and easy MN solution, no one gets hurt so everyone absolutely hates the idea, especially the gods who are red with rage and green with envy.

13-11-2011, 08:01 PM
It gets harder to wade through i am sorry to say. Bear in mind that the enlightened buddhas understood why temptation existed, why there was a duality and that it was to create something exceptional, not popssible without a rigorous testing.

Zoroaster called the bad ymns or jealous gods 'angra mainyu'.

wiki In Zoroaster's revelation Avestan angra mainyu "seems to have been an original conception of Zoroaster's." In the Gathas, which are the oldest texts of Zoroastrianism and are attributed to the prophet himself, angra mainyu is not yet a proper name. In the one instance in these hymns where the two words appear together, the concept spoken of is that of a mainyu ("mind", "mentality", "spirit" etc.) that is angra("destructive", "inhibitive", "malign" etc.). In this single instance—in Yasna 45.2—the "more bounteous of the spirits twain" declares angra mainyu to be its "absolute antithesis".

A similar statement occurs in Yasna 30.3, where the antithesis is however aka mainyu, aka being the Avestan language word for "evil". Hence, aka mainyu is the "evil spirit" or "evil mind" or "evil thought," as contrasted with spenta mainyu, the "bounteous spirit" with which Ahura Mazda conceived of creation, which then "was".

The aka mainyu epithet recurs in Yasna 32.5, when the principle is identified with the daevas that deceive humankind and themselves. While in later Zoroastrianism, the daevas are demons, this is not yet evident in the Gathas: In Zoroaster's view the daevas are "wrong gods" or "false gods" that are to be rejected, but they are not yet demons.

In Yasna 32.3, these daevas are identified as the offspring, not of Angra Mainyu, but of akem manah, "evil thinking". A few verses earlier it is however the daebaaman, "deceiver"—not otherwise identified but "probably Angra Mainyu"—who induces the daevas to choose achistem manah—"worst thinking." In Yasna 32.13, the abode of the wicked is not the abode of Angra Mainyu, but the abode of the same "worst thinking". "One would have expected [Angra Mainyu] to reign in hell, since he had created 'death and how, at the end, the worst existence shall be for the deceitful' (Y. 30.4)."

Zurvanism's principal feature is then the notion that both Ahura Mazda (MP: Ohrmuzd) and Angra Mainyu (Ahriman) were twin brothers, with the former being the epitome of good and the latter being the epitome of evil. Further, this dichotomy was by choice, that is, Angra Mainyu chose to be evil: "It is not that I cannot create anything good, but that I will not." And to prove this, he created the peacock.....

Ahriman perceives that Ohrmuzd is superior to himself, and so flees to fashion his many demons with which to meet Creation in battle. The entire universe is finally divided between the Ohrmuzd and the yazads on one side and Ahriman with his devs on the other. Ahriman slays the primal bull, but the moon rescues the seed of the dying creature, and from it springs all animal creation. But the battle goes on, with mankind caught in the middle, whose duty it remains to withstand the forces of evil through good thoughts, words and deeds. Other texts see the world created by Ohrmuzd as a trap for Ahriman, who is then distracted by creation and expends his force in a battle he cannot win. (The epistles of Zatspram 3.23; Shkand Gumanig Vichar 4.63-4.79). The Dadistan denig explains that God, being omniscient, knew of Ahriman's intent, but it would have been against His "justice and goodness to punish Ahriman before he wrought evil [and] this is why the world is created."

Ahriman has no such omniscience, a fact that Ohrmuzd reminds him of (Bundahishn 1.16). In contrast, in Manichean scripture, Mani ascribes foresight to Ahriman...Thus, both Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu were created by Ahura Mazda and should be regarded as his respective 'creative' and 'destructive' emanations..

Ie they both have a job to do. (now done we hope). Now the two headed God (looking to the past and future) Janus comes into it:

wike: In general, Janus is at the origin of time as the guardian of the gates of Heaven: Jupiter himself moves forth and back because of Janus's working. In one of his temples, probably that of Forum Holitorium, the hands of his statue were postured so as to show number 355, later 365, symbolically expressing his mastership over time. He presides over the concrete and abstract beginnings of the world, such as religion and the gods themselves, he too holds the access to Heaven and other gods: this is the reason why men must invoke him first, regardless of the god they want to pray or placate. He is the initiator of the human life, of new historical ages, and economical enterprises: in myth he first minted coins and the as, first coin of the libral series, bears his effigy on one face.

Because of his initial nature he was frequently used to symbolize change and transitions such as the progression of past to future, of one condition to another, of one vision to another, the growing up of young people, and of one universe to another. He was also known as the figure representing time because he could see into the past with one face and into the future with the other. This is also one of the explanations of his image with two heads looking in opposite directions. Hence, Janus was worshipped at the beginnings of the harvest and planting times, as well as marriages, deaths and other beginnings. He was representative of the middle ground between barbarity and civilization, rural country and urban cities, and youth and adulthood. Having jurisdiction on beginnings Janus had an intrinsic association with omens and auspices.

Leonhard Schmitz suggests that he was likely the most important god in the Roman archaic pantheon. He was often invoked together with Iuppiter (Jupiter).

In one of his works G. Dumézil has postulated the existence of a structural difference of level between the IE gods of beginning and ending and the other gods who fall into a tripartite structure, reflecting the most ancient organization of society. So in IE religions there is an introducer god (as Vedic Vâyu and Roman Janus) and a god of ending, a nurturer goddess and a genie of fire (as Vedic Saraswati and Agni, Avestic Armaiti, Anâitâ and Roman Vesta) who show a sort of mutual solidarity: the concept of god of ending is defined in connexion to the human referential, i.e. the current situation of man in the universe, and not to endings as transitions, which are under the jurisdiction of the gods of beginning, owing to the ambivalent nature of the concept. Thus the god of beginning is not structurally reducible to a sovereign god, and the goddess of ending to any of the three categories onto which the goddesses are distributed. There is though a greater degree of fuzziness concerning the function and role of female goddesses, which may have formed a preexisting structure allowing the absorption of the local Mediterrenean mother goddesses, nurturers and protectresses . As a consequence the position of the gods of beginning would not be the issue of a diachronic process of debasement undergone by a supreme uranic god, but would rather be a structural feature inherent to the theology of such gods. The fall of uranic primordial gods into the condition of deus otiosus is a well known phenomenon in the history of religions. Mircea Eliade gave a positive evaluation of Dumezil's views and of the comparative research results on Indoeuropean religions achieved in Tarpeia. even though he himself in many of his works observed and discussed the phenomenon of the fall of uranic deities in numerous societies of ethnologic interest. The figure of the IE initial god (Vâyu, Vayu, Mainyu, Janus) may open the sacrifice (Vâyu and Janus), preside over the start of the voyage of the soul after death (Iranic Vayu), "stand at the opening of the drama of the moral history of the world" (the Zoroastrian Mainyus). They may have a double moral connotation, perhaps due to the cosmic alternance of light and darkness, as is apparent in the case of Zoroastrianism

If it reads like double dutch ignore - it doesn't matter. It is basically saying that the Emin can sort all of this out if it sorts itself out first

or am i the only one to think that?

reve x

13-11-2011, 10:10 PM
In the UK a lot of parents would like to or do send their children to Steiner schools. Here is an ymn and it is interesting to see what he said about Ahriman in 1919:

Steiner divides the devil into two beings, Lucifer and Ahriman, and shows us how neither is bad per se, each provides gifts to human beings that further our evolution, and that it is us who must learn to balance these gifts in our individual lives. His recommendation for a solution to the problem of the devil is to transcend the tendency towards either Luciferic frenzy or Ahrimanic tedium by creating a spirit-filled synthesis of the two in our lives from now on.

Steiner says that Lucifer incarnated in a human body during the third millennium before Christ, and that Ahriman will likewise incarnate in the third millennium after Christ, the one we are currently entering. How can we be prepared for the coming of Ahriman? We must balance both the attributes of Ahriman and the attributes of Lucifer with Christ as our guide and companion. In Steiner's words:

[page 18] But woe betide if this Copernicanism is not confronted by the knowledge that the cosmos is permeated by soul and spirit. It is this knowledge that Ahriman wants to withhold. He would like to keep people so obtuse that they can grasp only the mathematical aspect of astronomy.

One of the wonderful aspects of Steiner is that he sees the value of both a spirit-filled cosmology and an abstract mathematical astronomy... The superb congruency of Steiner's process (what he does) and content (what he says) characterizes all great teachers. Steiner never tells us to follow his instructions to the letter, instead he models for us the behaviors that will bring us the desired balance in our lives if we were to exhibit those behaviors.

In light of the imminent incarnation of Ahriman, Steiner offers caveats and suggestions on how to avoid "strengthening Ahriman's impulse."

[page 21] I shall merely put before you the deeper fact, namely that no true understanding of Christ can be reached by the simple, easy going perusal of the Gospels beloved by most religious denominations and sects today.

[page 22] The point to remember is, however, that the people who do most to prepare for the incarnation of Ahriman are those who constantly preach, "All that is required is to read the Gospels word-for-word -no more than that!"

[page 52] In the absolute sense, nothing is good in itself, but is always good or bad according to the use to which it is put.

[page 31] And so a future must come when people will be able to say, "Yes, with my intelligence I can apprehend the external world in the way that is the ideal of natural science. But the vista thus presented to me is wholly ahrimanic."

[page 54] For to experience a thing is a very different matter from attempting to prove it intellectually.

[page 83] The all-essential causes of what happens on the earth do not lie outside the human being; they lie within humankind. And if earthly consciousness is to expand to cosmic consciousness, humanity must realize that the earth — not over short but over long stretches of time — is made in its own likeness, in the likeness of humanity itself.

[page 34] But the truth of the matter is that Lucifer and Ahriman must be regarded as two scales of a balance and it is we who must hold the beam in equipoise.
[page 34] And how can we train ourselves to do this? By permeating what takes ahrimanic form within us with a strongly luciferic element.

i disagree with the site about what that means but that is normal. We are on the outside, the evil side if you must. Within is the otherwordly sintly side. Or at least an awful lot of religions seem to think this. Have you noticed how many people quote the film the 'Matrix' as though it is a religion? On this side we do not balance good with good, nor fight bad with good. Fight is all bad. We balance right with left, not with wrong. It is an important difference as that is what war is all about. One devil against another. Both disguised. I heard a veteran talking about his time as a POW in Dresden WW2. He was there the night we bombed it. He said he had been trained to be a psychopath and to kill on the front line, but seeing burning women and children enraged him and he saw the evil of 'war'. That is the pure fact of all war, it is all wrong whether it is to liberate or steal. Women and children burned recently in Vietnam, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Africa. Everywhere.

We are supposed to have a council that can determine the nations' rights with each other as we have courts in our dealings with each other. That is how things used to be decided before wars. Now that council will authorise war.

If we balance them right they neutralise each other. Ahriman represents an angry warlike man. But Lucifer is a woman (Venus) and quite capable of driving a tent peg through his head when he is asleep, or poisoning or even cuckolding him. Adam and Eve bruising each other. It goes back a long way. Christian Mother Goddess cults v Muslim. Muslim v Hindu. Communist v Capitalist. White against Black. It is Leo's law of two, adjacent not opposite. That is why there is a trio. You have to separate them in yourself and see them both for what they are, not take sides and unbalance your possibilities. But sometimes you will have to side with one to keep the scales from tipping over. Like now.

night night

reve x

14-11-2011, 01:16 PM
I can see that i will have to start paying Wiki £3 a month too. Where will this end? Wiki need my £3 a month to stay free. As they are the best thing since sliced bread, as he says, I want that very much. My Dad and Leo had different opinions on bread I suspect which brings me to this:-

A fascinating thread is coinciding this morning, moving so fast that i could not keep up with the new posts. I have not read it all but it says so much. The question I derive from it is whether we would prefer people to keep their own opinions to themselves, within moderation, as others find these so unpleasant and aggressive. Frightening even. A world where the bigots all around us were allowed to speak freely would be an unwelcome reality check. We dont want them stirring up hatred with rhetoric obviously. They have a secret membership and outnumber us 50:1. Keep them quiet until we can give them support to develop open minds. Mobs are therefore very easy to rouse in this world. On the other hand we dont want people to hide behind their net curtains forever. A very basic lack of education and travel belies bigotry, which really means having a very biased view, the scales having tipped completely to Ahriman or Lucifer perhaps. It is incredibly simple to resolve. As is religous bigotry - we are all one (religion). But as far as the Emin is concerned in its formative years it must have been quite awkward for our ethnic members. Leo was anything but racist in his views, but was a bit of an old Eastender in his language at times. London was nowhere near as cosmopolitan as it is now. This seems to offend those who think they got here first and should have the front seats (a frequent scenario in life derived from the older gods perhaps, it is a Jesus sermon). Talking of whom we need a look at that composite of John (Jeshua) & Isis.

So my little rant over:-

wiki (please support them to stay free) Dionysus /daɪ.əˈnaɪsəs/ dy-ə-ny-səs (Ancient Greek: Διόνυσος, Dionysos) was the god of the grape harvest, winemaking and wine, of ritual madness and ecstasy in Greek mythology. His name in Linear B tablets shows he was worshipped from c. 1500—1100 BC by Mycenean Greeks: other traces of Dionysian-type cult have been found in ancient Minoan Crete. His origins are uncertain, and his cults took many forms; some are described by ancient sources as Thracian, others as Greek. In some cults, he arrives from the east, as an Asiatic foreigner; and in others, from Ethiopia in the South. He is a god of epiphany, "the god that comes", and his "foreignness" as an arriving outsider-god may be inherent and essential to his cults. He is a major, popular figure of Greek mythology and religion, and is included in some lists of the twelve Olympians. His festivals were the driving force behind the development of Greek theater.

The earliest cult images of Dionysus show a mature male, bearded and robed. He holds a fennel staff, tipped with a pine-cone and known as a thyrsus (reve: gemrod). Later images show him as a beardless, sensuous, naked or half-naked youth: the literature describes him as womanly or "man-womanish".(reve: composite) In its fully developed form, his central cult imagery shows his triumphant, disorderly arrival or return, as if from some place beyond the borders of the known and civilized. His procession (thiasus) is made up of wild female followers (maenads) and ithyphallic, bearded satyrs. Some are armed with the thyrsus, some dance or play music. The god himself is drawn in a chariot, usually by exotic beasts such as lions or tigers, and is sometimes attended by a bearded, drunken Silenus. This procession is presumed to be the cult model for the human followers of his Dionysian Mysteries. In his Thracian mysteries, he wears the bassaris or fox-skin, symbolizing a new life. Dionysus is represented by city religions as the protector of those who do not belong to conventional society and thus symbolizes everything which is chaotic, dangerous and unexpected, everything which escapes human reason and which can only be attributed to the unforeseeable action of the gods.

He was also known as Bacchus ( /ˈbækəs/ or /ˈbɑːkəs/; Greek: Βάκχος, Bakkhos), the name adopted by the Romans and the frenzy he induces, bakkheia. His thyrsus is sometimes wound with ivy and dripping with honey. It is a beneficent wand but also a weapon, and can be used to destroy those who oppose his cult and the freedoms he represents. He is also the Liberator (Eleutherios), whose wine, music and ecstatic dance frees his followers from self-conscious fear and care, and subverts the oppressive restraints of the powerful. Those who partake in his mysteries are possessed and empowered by the god himself. His cult is also a "cult of the souls"; his maenads feed the dead through blood-offerings, and he acts as a divine communicant between the living and the dead.

In Greek mythology, he is presented as a son of Zeus and the mortal Semele, thus semi-divine or heroic: and as son of Zeus and Persephone or Demeter, thus both fully divine, part-chthonic and possibly identical with Iacchus of the Eleusinian Mysteries. Some scholars believe that Dionysus is a syncretism of a local Greek nature deity and a more powerful god from Thrace or Phrygia such as Sabazios or Zalmoxis.

Isn't it better just reading the available facts and making up youir own mind about these things? That crystal hand in the British Museum belongs to Sabazius and unlike the skull is not a 19th century fake. When I get back to Scotland I will upload the photos of these wish fulfilling jewels as they are so aptly called by the Tibetans.

reve x

14-11-2011, 01:48 PM
is where the composite was born but he lives. Note part of him is a bearded robed man then look at that photo cp posted.:

Dionysus in Greek mythology is a god of foreign origin, and while Mount Nysa is a mythological location, it is invariably set far away to the east or to the south. The Homeric hymn to Dionysus places it "far from Phoenicia, near to the Egyptian stream". Others placed it in Anatolia, or in Libya ('away in the west beside a great ocean'), in Ethiopia (Herodotus), or Arabia (Diodorus Siculus).

reve: composite entities can have many lives and birthplaces

wiki:...Dionysus had a strange birth that evokes the difficulty in fitting him into the Olympian pantheon. His mother was a mortal woman,

The cult of Dionysus was closely associated with trees, specifically the fig tree, and some of his bynames exhibit this, such as Endendros "he in the tree" or Dendritēs, "he of the tree". Peters suggests the original meaning as "he who runs among the trees", or that of a "runner in the woods". Janda (2010) accepts the etymology but proposes the more cosmological interpretation of "he who impels the (world-)tree." This interpretation explains how Nysa could have been re-interpreted from a meaning of "tree" to the name of a mountain: the axis mundi of Indo-European mythology is represented both as a world-tree and as a world-mountain.

A third descent by Dionysus to Hades is invented by Aristophanes in his comedy The Frogs. Dionysus, as patron of the Athenian dramatic festival, the Dionysia, wants to bring back to life one of the great tragedians...

The bull, the serpent, the ivy and the wine are the signs of the characteristic Dionysian atmosphere, and Dionysus is strongly associated with satyrs, centaurs, and sileni. He is often shown riding a leopard, wearing a leopard skin, or in a chariot drawn by panthers, and may also be recognized by the thyrsus he carries

reve x

14-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Closing in on the Mother Goddess is not difficult as so many paths lead there, but most stop at a cliff before the end. i will explain. The Minoans are famed for their mother goddess (cthonic or underworld deity).

Lets start with the little known Moneta:

In Roman mythology, Moneta (Latin Monēta) was a title given to two separate goddesses: the goddess of memory (identified with the Greek goddess Mnemosyne) and an epithet of Juno, called Juno Moneta (Latin Iūno Monēta). The latter's name is source of numerous words in English and the Romance languages, including the word "money".

Juno is the Roman equivalent of Hera, that jealous wife of Zeus who got upset about the golden apple being awarded to Aphrodite. She should have realised what it is with Miss World contests. You dont need brains and you are only a 'model'. But she started the Trojan War over this.

Hera is identified sometimes with the crocus and saffron, as is the mysterious much more ancient goddess from Thera. We know the island is called Thera (after Theras who founded the colony) but have not deciphered the language. But the Minoans have her as someone who heals with saffron, wears yellow with red spots. Thera means wild.

It is what Thera did around 1626BC that is more significant, hence the cliff. She blew up in the biggest volcanic explosion for thousands of years. Tsunamis destroyed civilizations all over the globe, tree rings date it. Egypt fell apart, so did Crete and the Minoans. Sometimes they think she is Atlantis. Now they are finding under 200 feet of ash more about her. The ancients were terrified of her (the word 'her' perhaps comes from hera). She(ba) who must be obeyed probably.

The sacred black stone at the Kaaba is also originally to do with her.

She was seen to be in league with the sea god (tsunamis) and this had a profound effect in Europe and Asia. Even China. The Mother Goddess cults shrank. The earth gods and sea gods were in disgrace. People preferred the sky gods afterr the biggest natural disaster we can imagine. Maybe it was the cause of sea shells around the pyramids and water erosion on the sphinx but who am I to say. The pyramids were already a thousand years old, and this was still one thousand years before the great Greek empire.

The frescoes they are uncoverinmg show a lovely dimunutive white woman looking up to an older woman. I wonder who they could be.

reve x

Thera should be given the apple retrospectively we will try to arrange this. Athena also thinks it should go to the teacher.

14-11-2011, 10:03 PM
There is a bit more to Hera. Like the Luciferic Goddess (Aphrodite who has the apple) Hera has a hand in making a peacock which is curious:

wiki. hera etymology: In a note, he records other scholars' arguments "for the meaning Mistress as a feminine to Heros, Master." John Chadwick, a decipherer of Linear B, remarks ""her name may be connected with hērōs, ἥρως, 'hero', but that is no help, since it too is etymologically obscure...In Ovid's interpolation, when Hera learned of Argus' death, she took his eyes and placed them in the plumage of the peacock, accounting for the eye pattern in its tail...Hera's chariot was pulled by peacocks, birds not known to Greeks before the conquests of Alexander. Alexander's tutor, Aristotle, refers to it as "the Persian bird." The peacock motif was revived in the Renaissance iconography that unified Hera and Juno, and which European painters focused on. A bird that had been associated with Hera on an archaic level, where most of the Aegean goddesses were associated with "their" bird, was the cuckoo, which appears in mythic fragments concerning the first wooing of a virginal Hera by Zeus...Her archaic association was primarily with cattle, as a Cow Goddess... Hera then sent a gadfly (Greek oistros, compare oestrus)) to sting Io as she wandered the earth. Eventually Io settled in Egypt, where according to Ovid she became the Egyptian goddess Isis......Both Hera and Demeter had many characteristic attributes of the former Great Goddess. The Minoan goddess represented in seals and other remains, whom Greeks called Potnia Thēron 'Mistress of Animals'... is often assumed to have existed in prehistorical religion.... goddesses depicted in Minoan art...While Heracles was still an infant, Hera sent two serpents to kill him as he lay in his cot. Heracles throttled a single snake in each hand and was found by his nurse playing with their limp bodies as if they were a child's toys.....Juno was an ancient Roman goddess... Her Greek equivalent is Hera. As the patron goddess of Rome and the Roman Empire she was called Regina.. with Jupiter and Minerva, was worshipped as a triad ..... She often appeared sitting pictured with a peacock...She is closely associated with Janus, the god of passages and beginnings who after her is often named Iunonius.....The view that Juno was the feminine counterpart to Genius, i.e. that as men possess a tutelary entity or double named genius, so women have their own one named juno, has been maintained by many scholars,

At last what we are looking for. I note Easter Oestre) coming into it, those two snakes and the name Theron (Thera).

Our mother goddess Dea Bona no less

sweet dreams
reve x

15-11-2011, 08:27 PM
Unbelievable but true. Jesus mentions it happening when John has his head taken off. Another less known instance is when Brahma has one of his 5 heads cut off either by Vishnu, for lying to him, or by Shiva for incest. So Brahma is left with only 4 heads and Shiva wears one in his hair.

here are some amateur explanations around the net:

Brahma used to have 5 heads, but now he has 4. This is because he lied to Vishnu, the Protector of the universe. 1 day Brahma and Vishnu argued about who is stronger and greater. They try to settle it by a competition....Brahma got on his swan .....Brahma also began to feel tired he saw a Mallika Flower. ... he thought he could trick Vishnu.....Vishnu called out, "LIAR!" ,,, And that's how Brahma lost one of his 5 heads

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_Brahma_lost_his_one_head#ixzz1dnjX6YBz

Brahma, the creator of the universe, is depicted as having four heads, though originally he had five. Brahma puran says,while creating the universe Brahma made a beautiful woman and named her Satarupa. But Brahma was changed by his own creation. He had never before seen such a fine beauty. To enable himself to see her from all angles he gave himself a second, third, and fourth head. Wherever Satarupa went she found Brahma's eyes staring at her. Disgusted, she rose skywards and in order to see her, Brahma created a fifth head for himself. Lord Shiva, the destroyer, was watching all this and Brahma's actions greatly angered him. He felt that as Brahma had created Satarupa, she was like his daughter and it was his duty to protect her. He felt that it was wrong on Brahma's part to be in love with her and to teach him a lesson Shiva struck off Brahma's fifth head.
Brahma puran by ved vyas

The Lord wanted to teach a lesson to Both Brahmaa and Shiva who were already covered by VISHNU MAYAA, noone is free from this including Shiva, started to fight for supremacy among themselves due to the gnorance created by Vishnu Mayaa. Shivaacould remove one of his head

Brahma has
four faces. But initially he had five. This story is not so common.Please convey to that member that what you had written was correct in every sense. There is the fifth head, as opposed to Brahmâ's normal four, which proposed incest to his daughter, who indignantly cursed him to always speak contrarily or bray like a donkey, whereupon the fifth head always spoke evilly and coarsely. Or once when Shiva visited, Brahmâ's four heads praised him, but the fifth made an evil sound provoking Shiva to cut it off.(There is also another storybwhereby this evil head was lusting Satidevi during Shiva's wedding and Shiva cut the head instantly, Subramanyamji) Since his four heads were incapable of lying, Brahmâ had to sprout the fifth head in the form of a she-ass to utter the lie that he had reached the summit of the immeasurable linga. ..Though in the ‘Head Cutting’ (Shirash-chedaka) Tantra, Brahmâ's fifth head subsequently receives esoteric Tantric doctrines from his decapitator, and the Vidûshaka himself is depicted in open collaboration with the Kaula preceptor Bhairavânanda, the ‘Case of the Severed Head’ was already a Vedic mystery...Rudra, the transgressor, is always represented as the son of Brahmâ, born of some impure aspect of the latter like his wrath (as Manyu) or blood . Notwithstanding secondary sectarian elaborations, the hostility between the two, culminating in the sudden parricide, is expressive of the sudden rupture that transgression introduces into the mode of being of the Brahman. Moreover, in conformity with the religion of interdictions, it permits the presentation of the sacrificial beheading as a (mere) punishment for the primordial incest.

I just want to point out there are differing reasons for the severed head mystery, and this is long before John the Baptist and Prester John.

When you lose a head you lose a life, not all your lives if you are composite. Leo's contribution on the subject was that decapitation and hanging ritually kill the soul, it is released and dispersed.

So who lost their head? about 20% of us. The reason given at the end, 'transgression' , is all about this. The fifth head lusted for the created 'daughter of man'. That is why 'they' came here then but Shiva saw this as incestuous. They were cut off. Adam Eve and the serpent thrown out. The angels' return was cut off.

Apparently it is all about something that happened today!

reve x

ac/aa/as am sorting (ed)it love js x

16-11-2011, 12:03 PM
This is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to.

16-11-2011, 07:36 PM
You are right JennM but traditionally those making 'nirvana' or sainthood were immersed in ancient texts, prayer and rigid discipline their whole lives. Monks and nuns who had nothing but gave everything.

(I do not mean the people that the Pope calls saints). Almost all of the enlightened ones were also deeply involved in occult rituals of one kind or another, as it is all to do with that unseen world. That is to say spirits and spiritual things.

Do you mean personal development? That can be powering your mind, developing senses, learning laws, abc, 32 steps to establishment and so on.

Leo never insisted we read texts, and pray, and discipline ourselves, abstain from sex, meat and wine and dedicate ourselves to the benefit of all. You have to choose that yourself. But this is why no one makes what they call immortality. It is not much fun.

To spiritually develop you need to be able to work with spirits. And they have special requirements. You will develop powers that are dangerous for you. Controlling people can be one. So many take advantage of that and 'fall'. These old tales tell us about them and enable us to avoid the eternal repetition of them. The fun of Leo was that he lent us spirits to try this out, but that did not advance us and they went back..

Just a handful per generation make it but we really can do better than that. Who here has gained their enlightenment and who here will? I doubt if anyone here wants to if it means unending discipline and working entirely for humanity.

This is why i am writing to our emin graduates as I think this is where they have gone. But quite a few who left at the same time as me went straight back to heavy drugs as if they had never met Leo. That is another category.

Please explain JennM what you are referring to if not the above. I can read your post two ways. So I went back to your last one to check. But I did not see that with ley lines. I saw jumping in the car to Stonehenge in the middle of the night to do some sensing and spirit catching. Most went for fun, but others went to work.


reve x (But unlike you i was never a teacher and never heard the lessons!)

16-11-2011, 08:58 PM
The words linking all the wiki subjects I have been quoting are fairly obvious by now to the reader who followed them but in themselves not all that usual. If they all had, say, a 'house' mentioned it would not mean much. But a house might be a family tree for a monkey like me. A person, dynasty or dwelling. Or a shop like Fraser.

These texts often use the term primordial. That has one meaning and is very unusual to find anywhere. It means before Time. Unusually many of the beings mentioned relate to Time in some way. The letters MN are associated in some way also. A paradise is quite normal to find in literature but these are in the West, on islands which are verdant, or next to the Ocean. The UK and Florida fit well. There is a cult or school in most of them. Immortality is only for a few of the characters but the difficulties and downsides are revealed. We note that the characters are themselves often incorporated into composite deities with multiple heads and arms. They have astrological animals associated with them. There are curious links between the names in different cultures and languages. There are spirits and dreams and messengers of god, or prophets with much in common. There is a common tale of entities falling into disgrace.

What you make of that is up to you. It is not really general knowledge and was not taught me by the Emin. But while no one else posts here I thought I would attempt to entertain in what I perceive is an emin way with a lot of what I have discovered about myself following my hobby. Men's hobbies often take up all their time, the house and all their money. That may be the case with me but it is a hobby I picked up from Orman in 1974 which is why I think it relevant here. Had anyone seriously interrupted me I would never have completed what i set out to do so i am grateful for that. However I see the need for a change as the seasons roll over. It is time for stories from the olden days if any of you can remember any worth telling, along with tales of the Template to keep us up to date. If we can manage that and i will shut up.


17-11-2011, 09:42 AM
Reve, it's a difficult thing to explain and perhaps we're really just talking about different paths to the same thing. But I'm just not sure what the point is of all this stuff. It's interesting; just like jumping in the car and driving off to Stonehenge etc was interesting. But for me, it's openness that counts most. Not openness that leads to a whole variety of occult/esoteric descriptions of essences, colours, systems, magics that are ancient-here-again. Just openness to the life outside oneself.

One time in the Emin, I decided to do something like Leo had done when he spent every Saturday for 8 years, sitting under a tree. In short, it worked, but not in terms of giving me lots of occult insights. I just felt more connected to the place around me; could hear the conversations between the trees, although they were subtle and not particularly useful, in any immediate human shape or form. About the same time, a movement began involving 'cognitive archaeology' and some of the Earth Mysteries people. The idea was to just spend time at a site and let it inform you what life might have been like for the ancient people who lived there. I put away my dowsing rods, too; since that approach seemed far more open and 'now' to me than divining a silver line here or a gold blob over there.

See, I never did drugs of any kind. And I suspect quite a lot of the people who joined the Emin later didn't either. So perhaps - and I'm well aware this is just speculation - we weren't looking for an alternative drug. Although I didn't realise it at first, I was looking to be a better person and (eventually) prepared to do the personal development that might lead to that; and to recognise it would be a life-long effort.

17-11-2011, 01:47 PM
JennM i have been troubled of late and trying to pinpoint it. I know why i came here but in some funny way was uncomfortable. Then, literally today, my eyes were opened to it. It is all about openness as you mention. But I had to go back to India to find out what was wrong. Some people like Orman were very open, quite mischievious but obviously dedicated. They made you feel ok about not being perfect. This had been on my mind as it was nice but where does mischievious fit in. Class laughs but someone perhaps is uncomfortable. Ie personal development.

What was reminded to me today was something I knew long but had forgotten until another person reading this thread mentioned it to me. It is about Leo and is very worrying. At the time I thought it was fine but now see it quite differently. I will have to sort it out with him next time I 'see' him but can see that the Emin cannot be justified in the way he wanted. I will discuss this further if I am allowed but cannot mention any names.

The problem is that Leo did not allow himself to be portrayed like this and was very fierce and secretive about it. The thing he said he hated most along with the ancients was hypocrisy. Burt we all hate something that we see of ourselves in others. He is right about the ancients. They dont like it. if you are a bad ymn be open about it like Genghis Khan.

It has nothing to do with the Trio for those with overworking imaginations.
JennM I think you are a great good ymn!

reve x

17-11-2011, 05:12 PM
The other thing you put your finger on JennM is that tree. Some of us did do the things we talked about but I would challenge Leo's version of events in this case. These are old usher's tricks to make the students feel small. You can never be like me because I started at birth. Well i have tried to explain here how you can do that retrospectively if you want. When someone says to you 'I remember that little boy he would sit out there wind rain and snow, never missed one weekend in 12 years' you could cautiously take their word. If the whole street claim they saw this, believe it (unless you believe they are all part of a global conspiracy which is not so unusual in history). But when a man says this to you, if he did actually say it to you, then take it with a pinch of salt. He probably got it from a book, but it may be his parents often took him to the Heath after Shawl and sat on a bench under one. We all tend to exaggerate. But this contract may have some basis at some time in his life. The problem for Leo is that if this is not true he is being hypocritical. The ushers who pass it on are making a big mistake too. i am sure I told my dad about this and can imagine what he thought but did not say. He made communion every Sunday of his life from the age of 12 and prayed every single night. A lot of people do. We have to be honest and humble before such things.

Now the contract with the tree comes into all of this because there was a contract between us and the man. What i notice now and approve of is the distance the Template has put between what it does and and what we had to do under Leo. Some of that was a power trip, but all teachers go through that. Leo: As a kid I could throw a ball at a wall do a double somersault and catch it. reve: Well i could not, but if I could, would not say it to people who obviously could not. Why would I do that?

Leo is a better man than any reading this may I say. But it must be a responsibilty for him that we are so deluded by things he said on the spur of the moment. If any good comes of it then this is because it inspired us to do something worthwhile, assuming it is. But if it made us feel inferior it is not so good. Egyptians have their hearts weighed against the feather of truth. The scales tip the wrong way when little fibs turn into big lies. And also when it is deemed that you used your spiritual power inappropriately. Some honesty now can save Leo and the Emin. That we all love him is not in doubt at all. But love is curious I see women who love their domestically violent husbands!

I bet some of you are furious but if you had a short private chat with me you would possibly understand. The coarse can destroy the fine. But we can put it right. O dea.

reve x

17-11-2011, 07:23 PM
are you on this?


18-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Now the contract with the tree comes into all of this because there was a contract between us and the man

I've no idea what you mean by this. My contract was between myself and the place I decided to spend time with. Whatever Leo did or didn't do is irrelevant in that context. I didn't prescribe what I would feel as a result of fulfilling the contract. Yes, I knew what Leo had said about what he felt, but he wasn't particularly prescriptive either. Also, while you don't know me, I'm not sure you should be assuming so much about what I intended and what I experience. There's a bit of sleight of hand going on here, I think: you guiding others' statements into the channels you want to explore.

Or to put it another way: I left the Emin with a lot that is still true and useful for me today. It's not going to suddenly be invalid if I hear that something Leo said or did was exaggerated.

18-11-2011, 06:05 PM
My writing is indecipherable here and at work.

I've no idea what you mean by this. My contract was between myself and the place I decided to spend time with. Whatever Leo did or didn't do is irrelevant in that context. I didn't prescribe what I would feel as a result of fulfilling the contract. Yes, I knew what Leo had said about what he felt, but he wasn't particularly prescriptive either.

reve: The only comment i made about your contract was that some people did what we talked about. I was pointing out that the action of sitting under a tree doing this is an ancient tale and possibly in Leo's case an usher's lesson to get us to be open, as you put it, to the environment. I see no harm in that unless one thinks that the original story is true (like a virgin birth) when it is not. In that case it adds to the disinformation we have and do not need. The reason i worry about Leo's contracts in general including the one he made with me are that they may be a bit one sided. And on reflection this week they are not acceptable in this day and age.

JM:Also, while you don't know me, I'm not sure you should be assuming so much about what I intended and what I experience. There's a bit of sleight of hand going on here, I think: you guiding others' statements into the channels you want to explore.

reve: No one says much to me here so I do not intend to guide these statements but i follow your thought. i am open about it if you look back, i write that I will use any excuse or reply to spout more of this stuff which appears so irrelevant due to my inability to demonstrate why it is not. No I do not know you, but in a way I do. Your posts are a bit like a band's music. It is individual and recognisable. What i assume from them is that you are honest, work hard but demand little for it, care about people, live in a slightly foreign environment but fit in well, are not judgemental (except maybe with me a bit) and want to develop. I also know that you are an experienced Emin teacher and respect that so try to write at your level. You speak your mind.

JennM: Or to put it another way: I left the Emin with a lot that is still true and useful for me today. It's not going to suddenly be invalid if I hear that something Leo said or did was exaggerated.

reve: Now here I completely agree. Of course it is useful when a highly intelligent person working with others does work that you can benefit from. It saves time. I try to save you all wading through encyclopedias looking up obscure things by posting it under your noses, and these days we say this is from wiki or whatever. It is more embarrassing now to find that so much of Leo's work was done by others before, and not only not credited to them, but that we were explicitly told not to read them to find it. (Lots had already read this stuff and he knew that) He had his reasons of course he had extracted the bits he thought were good and excluded the interesting bits that sidetrack searchers. Like Gurdjieff's journey across the Gobi desert to the brotherhood. Leo didn't talk about that but worked with his (silly) ray of creation. Now if a teacher says do something in your life you need to be able to trust them that it is worthwhile and not dangerous. We saw Leo and liked what we saw so were prepared to take the risk. I am only saying that it is now that I am coming up against the negative side of his teaching. Now that i am an older man than he was when we met. Because the difference between me and you if i may assume this from your posts is that I was after what I and others call enlightenment. Before the Emin, during and since. And what i found eventually is that you have to be honest. Which is exactly what Leo said then.

At least you challenge me JennM. I thought that was something we learned there but it is not. The majority were and are silent, the few who were not ended up teaching it seems. And they are different.

Would it make a difference really if you discovered that we had been in a satanist coven? Dont go nuts this is just an example. It would make a difference to me about many things. Leo could talk about Pan as it happens, most people's idea of a devil. Now if it made no difference because you learned how to connect, evolved and became more open that is fine.

What i have realised in the last few days is at that kind of level. Where is it coming from and where is our effort going to. i would be delighted if you and others commented on that, corrected me or laid into me. One person's godhead is often another person's devil. But if our master decided not to be completely open with us about certain things, it is time to look again at them before we go with them to the grave. And it is a fact that some reading this know all about these things and will not discuss them either. They do not think it is any of our business, and that of course is exactly what they worry about. Business.

Do you agree that it would be better for the Emin to be open than secretive? Or is it just you and me that want to be open? It is wrong to slander a dead person, but as there are witnesses to the man's life they should be able to correct that impression and explain what was going on. Can you imagine how I would feel if my dad's church choir suddenly claimed that he had abused them, and only then i recalled all the signs of this but had ignored them. A too long post again but does that make any sense?

reve x

18-11-2011, 08:39 PM
Who can complete this conversation?

Leo: Beta I hear that you file your teeth like me.

Beta: Yes Leo.

Leo: Why do you file your teeth Beta?

Beta: ...........................


19-11-2011, 06:44 PM
I met a few of you last night including two I remembered and some I did not. A nice bright astral dream with my dad there, we were all in his study at one point. Someone else has a hearing aid poor man. All very encouraging after a doomy week. Keep coming.

darkest hours have their dawns

reve x

20-11-2011, 04:58 PM

I will avoid world history then. I wish we could put all of the ancients on lie detectors as it now appears they work. We should have them in our houses, and on our keyboards particularly, to warn others. They are used on housing benefit phone calls so it cannot be long. Everyone lies, no one wants them. judges especially should answer questions about themselves and their judgements before trying others. Swear on a lie detector, not a bible.

I will avoid dreams if no one else is reporting them.

And try this psychology. In my opinion we are split love and light. The light is on the inner life side and is unyielding by nature. The Queen of diamonds is quite hard. But humans have these emotions. They will nurture a baby but also get enraged. The side effect of duality is that you cannot have one big paradise for everyone all the time.

They have got around this to some extent. The rich create their own little paradise parks around the world at the expense of the shanty towns outside the gates. And some daemons will exploit you from the inside so you have a hard time and they do not. This has been one of the big unseen battles.

Now most battle to survive outside the parks, but some inherit them. This is why Karma is applied to the rich, but it is a deception. It comes from somewhere else, not a previous life. The blessed do not come back rich i assure you. Wealth is always a sign of deep inbalance. There is only enough for what we all need, no more.

We might spend a life trying to get a park of our own, many do. Or to get a park for all of us. That is why 'we' are essential as that is a product of love and light, and higher than both. The human will kill to defend their patch of grass. The spirits are happy on their own. Emin ladies were always a bit hard I think, but light. The more emotional ones could not take it for long. It needed to change and I notice that from the feminine posts here. We need both.

Inspiration sets alight but enlightenment is very cold and far from perfect as a sensation, completely irreversible and unattractive to our feminine nature. A cold strerile moon to our warm blooded earth. Those who do not like the idea can relax, it is not necessary to leave the cinema of illusion here. Just to put a better film on. It does not surprise me that I am not popular, how could I be? I cannot write what you want to read but I would if I wanted to make a business out of Truth like Madonna's Kaballah. (The Ka of the Ba of El?) as that can only ever be a Lie.

hope you all are having a good weekend
reve x

20-11-2011, 08:28 PM
I reckon I get away with this, it is not history really. I am chucking things out and found this Guardian obituary I had kept. His dad was a high ranking medical man and aristocrat, his mother a famous seer. At 9 he realised, and

'could Know and obey the will of God. He took the name Subramanium upon the Lord's instruction'..witnessed as a youth the material corruption of spiritual values...life's work to unify faiths and establish dharma...after WW2...came to Europe on the Lord's instruction to witness the destruction and devastation to lives...settled in Britain..literally working round the clock...starting at 4am finishing at 2am...earning his keep...(working in Selfridges,singing,successful flower shop etc) so that he could teach free of charge, meditation and spiritual practices in the night to anyone who came to his door....teaching, feeding, looking after...would embrace all religous as different facets of humanity's association with god....Community of the Many Names of God is now a well established monastic centre...three temples...90,000 devotees pa...monks and nuns......charismatic fun loving manner and striking good looks...hospice free of charge....described himself as a divine traffic cop directing people....direction of liberation...as the emissary of the Divine his nature was to go to the assistance of those in need and gtake some part of their difficulties upon himself.

extract Guardian July

pure ymn, can we do less and if so why? I think these are questions we need to ask ourselves as Emins because this was going on under our noses in this country and we were not exactly humble in the face of it. I think the answer is that many Emins did work in humble occupations to pay for a community that taught freely* and were charitable enough to feed any number of hungry for knowledge people and look after them in a spiritual sense. We were not prescriptive (txJM) about different faiths (much) and had a temple. But something doesn't quite ring that bell with us and I am hoping it will. Does anyone agree? care?

reve x

*our little 'night school' is free

21-11-2011, 06:26 PM
Subramanium does not appear to have fallen in the trap that snares so many gurus and makes them appear to be 'bad' ymns.

Most gurus are men, and most men are bad. Maharishi fell out with Lennon who did not approve of his relationship with his other disciple Mia Farrow. Sai Baba is accused of coercing young men. Bhagwan had a host of pretty girls in orange brought to his bedroom in Poona for breakfast fun and games. He is also said to have started a brothel in Oregon to attract wealthy followers out there. Krishnamurti had a secret lover who had to have 3 illegal abortions. Some very close to him could not accept his teachings as they saw this other secretive and darker side. David Kadesh etc were worse. Groupies are often very vulnerable people. The Church is now seen as having abused so many.

Saul was something else, blinded having the vision that told him he was now Paul and must start the new church for a Jesus never met. To him we can give the responsibility for the two men who refused to give all they had to his church and were immediately found dead. What a thing to be proud of.

There are very few gurus who pass every test. The tests become increasingly hard to pass. In theory if you know yourself you can avoid being bad because you know you are. In practise they dont care because they make up their own rules. So there are a lot of ymns in the fire they say. The temptation is not evil, the karmic action is at it is greatly magnified in the guru through 'his' or 'her' teaching. This is a testing time is it not.


21-11-2011, 07:40 PM
I have been moving books since last posting and found Bhagwan looking up at me from a book I confess I have never read, given to me by a Sanyassin. We have had a little chat. I am back in make believe land. I read what he wanted in 'Neither this nor that' and liked it a lot. But I wont quote from his enlightened explanation of the title but from a passage on dreams. He is trying to encourage us to dream consciously but admits it is a very elusive state.

'If the conscious falls into the unconscious you fall into a coma, and if the unconscious falls into the conscious and itself becomes conscious, you become enlightened, you become a Buddha, a Sosan'.......

ok his bit: 'Sosan says be active totally then you will be able to be passive totally. Then both the extremes meet and a subtle balance is achieved. That subtle balance is the samyakht, that subtle balance is tranquillity. That subtle balance is the highest peace possible, the peak, the climax, the crescendo, because when two things balance - outer and inner, activity and passivity - - suddenly you transcend them both When they both balance you are no more this and no more that . Suddenly you are a third force - the onlooker the witness. But you cannot strive for it'' (Sheldon Press 1975).

These are his reflections as a Zen master and he clearly knows what he is describing unlike many. It boils down to if you try to go to sleep you cannot. Exhaust yourself then it comes and refreshes you. If you want to dream consciously the way he describes (as opposed to day dream) it will also avoid you. When you can see, you see the world is illusory. Thinking the world is illusory does not help you see.

Very anti drugs man, but he says they can help the good dreamer and make their dreams more luminous. I can see that he thinks some things are ok for the enlightened but not for the others. He is laughing

Good night

reve x

22-11-2011, 06:08 PM
Some of you are enraged that I would apologise to Bhagwan just like that and not to Leo. In fact Bhagwan explains it quite well in his book with a story about Chuang Tzu. A man tells CT about a man being a thief and CT replies 'ah but he plays the flute beautifully'. He then retorts to another praising the man's flute playing that he is a thief.

He does this to balance out both statements. Bhagwan thought I had failed to do that by mentioning his orgies and not his life's work. So I did.

I have already praised Leo extensively on this thread. Now a bit of balance comes in there.

Bhagwan uses a different word to me about this 'witness' sensation at the point of balance, neither this nor that. I see this as cold enlightenment (as in cold light of day), but it is not the right word really. He uses the Buddhist word upeksha and also has trouble with the usual meaning 'indifference'. Nor is it detatched. The closest i can get today is impartial. But even that is wrong. You are partial to the truth, connected to it and far from indifferent. You care. He says you cannot say i love you and you cannot say i hate you. I prefer his view above, you have to say both to balance, or neither.

Krishnamurti said Bhagwan was not enlightened. Bhagwan said that Krishnamurti was. Odd isn't it?


22-11-2011, 09:11 PM
I have found my elusive camera cable and with great difficulty 'captured' the third eye, spirit ring, High Aman Priestess Scarab and the Celtic electrum bangle in 2 photos which i have uploaded on my profile here - one shows the writing underneath the scarab (I become Aman?). Wish fulfilling jewels. I wish.

reve x

22-11-2011, 11:22 PM
translate as 'transforming power of Re' apparently. I have lost my feather (Y in Ymn). Oh Dea.


23-11-2011, 03:32 PM
Not that this is relevant but it is interesting I think. I am obviously still trying to pack up all my books without looking at the authors' photos but some I flip open and am lost for hours.

Up in the mountains in Northern iran at 2000m is a mountain valley with a lake whose thermal springs are always 21c degrees. Atur Gushnasp as it was called was home to the most sacred fire temple. This was the Royal Fire, but in Iran most villages had their own perpetual fire. Here they had the sky, earth, water and fire (not far below their feet) and kept alight in the temple. Even when finally destroyed the king is said to have taken the magic fire with him, but he would say that. It is like the Olympian torch carried from Greece. But because the ancient Aryans, who worshipped their horses, considered the pollution of the elements earth, fire and water - a great evil they would not bury, burn or drown their dead. Exposing them in towers at the top of mountains or hills (of Silence). Now there are not enough vultures left because of ibuprofen and other medicines poisoning them.

As usual the right idea is transmitted but over zealously interpreted over generations. These were the people we call the Magi. They became Zoroastrans and Parsees.

I hope they dont bomb any more countries. These are the birthplaces of our civilization.

A little bit of Norse mythology. 'Odin the arch-sorcerer developed his skills over a lifetime of search and sacrifice much like a mortal shaman. Ever thirsty for wisdom and power he wandered the nine worlds as a vagrant clad in a blue mantle and slouch hat gathering and garnering every snippet of information he could find. After hanging himself on the World Tree he learnt the secrets of the dead and restored himself to life' (Arthur Cotterell Mythology Library)

like any good aemin he ends up begging for a living

Blind Teiresias was the most renowned seer in ancient Greece. Originally she was a priestess of Hera but as Zeus became more diminant in religion there she was changed into a man. Some say 'he' was blinded by Zeus. Graves says that after making a judgement to settle a dispute between the two gods and Hera blinded him, but relented and gave him inner sight. He judged that women enjoy sex more than men! The oracles and most seers were women. Manto was the daughter of Teiresias and apparently even more psychic than her parent. There are a few Manto's in Ancient Greece whose mothers were seers. This tends to confirm the suspicion that there were much earlier tales and songs about Manto (in Ancient Greek mantis means a 'seer' or prophet)

reve (go on pay your £3 it wont break the bank, but it may be the straw that does)

23-11-2011, 03:54 PM
this is why Hera was so angry. He said

If the parts of love pleasure be counted as ten
Thrice three go to women one only to men

Hera had been trying to pull Zeus up from his swanning off and spawning having illegitimate gods. But he suggested when they did share a bed she got more out of it than him. As Paris had adjudged Aphrodite the most beautiful goddess poor Hera was feeling her age. So she blinded the poet. Who probably only wanted this inner sight anyway.

So many wars are ascribed to this marital dysfunction. It is psychology. The human condition is anything but a mystery, relentlessly preached through the ages. Why politicians in their 40's look elsewhere for companionship and Home Secretaries clamp down on their vices. Big rows at home. Then they bomb someone. Testosterone? Have you met ANYONE who wants to bomb Iran? and if so why are they walking around and not been locked up?

Can i ask if the Emin Template has official views on such things or is able to campaign and lobby for peace in Israel perhaps?


23-11-2011, 05:33 PM
Leo spoke quite a lot about the British Museum - the railings gold and black around it which prevented astral travel, that he had shielded the objects in the Egyptian gallery to prevent harm to us and to stop them becoming active. But he often recalled the mile long queue outside it in the 70's when Tutankhamun visited Brfitain in all his splendour.

Dr Iorwerth Eiddon Edwards was a very great and universally respected Egyptologist. He served in British Intelligence during the War, in Egypt and Jerusalem, where the heroic Sir Flinders Petrie was still based. A pair of mostly unknown super heroes on whose shoulders rest almost all serious archaeology and Egyptology.

The Egyptians loved Eiddon. He was a triple scholar in their ancient languages and his father was the Persian scholar in the British Museum before he was Keeper. He was in Tehran when he heard his father had died i believe. The Egyptians promised him Tutanhhamun during the War and fulfilled the promise although we attacked Suez and they stopped talking to us. It was for Eiddon alone that they sent Tut here and into our vocabulary.

Eiddon was the expert in many things and after the war while in Jerusalem he was asked for his views on a post British mandate. He strongly favoured a two nation state. That more or less did for him. Even after Tutankhamun he was not knighted, but his boss was made Lord Hunt. Eiddon wrote the acknowledged greatest Egyptian book of them all - The Pyramids of Egypt. In his obituary it was recorded that almost all the mainstream Egyptologists in the modern era have recorded extraordinary tales of how they came into possession of this book and how it changed their lives. i will record mine.

I was in Amsterdam with my wife and on a hunch was looking at old and new books for a change. I knew too what i was looking for it was a good pyramid book, to get to the bottom of it. Suddenly i saw a beuatiful photo of the great pyramid with the sun placed exactly at its peak.A brilliant photo. It was by Paul Brunton so I bought it. And expensive.

Paul Brunton was another mystic whose father was a famous Egyptologist or orientalist. I knew him from the 60's and his book Search in Secret Egypt in which he claimed he was allowed to sleep in the Kings Chamber in the sarcophagus and was 'taken' through a secret wall to see all the treasures. And written on the walls were all the secrets of the world and he was not to look at them but did and came back. However a few decades and pages later it seems a bit unlikely to put it mildly and his observations on life are not very enlightened. I am disappointed - no pyramid stuff at all.

Next day a little junkshop has a worn out small little blue book. Instinct made me curious, its price seemed ridiculously high too. I opened page 44 as i do to have a random look and bought it instantly. Eiddon and Flinders had measured every stone on a good 80 pyramids. Found everything from the chisel marks to the impossibility of a sarcophagus bigger that a doorway etc. They had seen the villages of the people who made them, the mason injuries they sustained. and the people there before any large buildings at all, and before them. How to date them all by vase shapes. Every aspect of the religion. All written in a very dry scholastic way. It certainly changed my life. i thought he must be dead but he was not and I had at least seven years being guided by this extraordinary man following the death of my father.

His wife Dragon was also a wonder. Eiddon wrote his autobiography which is one of my favourite of all books. We should all do one. They did not like it and only a hundred or so were printed i believe. Dragon did it for him a year or so after he had died. Eiddon had brought it up to a publisher in London and was away from home that evening when he suddenly died. Dragon told me he had been warned. If any of you have seen the most beautiful coffee table book of Tutankhamun with the glorious photographs and descriptions of everything in that tomb, this is his other famous work. It was in fact the extremely expensive catalogue for New York and British Museums.

An unsung hero brought Egypt to us. This put into sharp perspective many of the things that Leo had said about solar furnaces. On the other hand Eiddon was fascinated by the spiritual side and how it has a modern base and supported some rather unorthidox Egyptologist especially Robert Bauval. but maybe not as much as the publisher portrayed. On the other hand Eiddon's auto has a photo of him meeting Bauval outside Dragon House in Deddington where he lived. It was also extraordinary for him of all people to realise that it is him recorded there, and now here.

that was Eiddon's photo looking at me and another hald hour vanished. basck to moving house and country.


These were the last generation of giants. Since Elvis we have popstars, since Beckham footballers.

23-11-2011, 06:29 PM
does it take to move 30 bluestones from Wales to Stonehenge. My builder could not do it. But when offered all the people needed and a thousand years to do it, he would immediately agree. His sort of job exactly.

When people say the ancients had power tools and lasers they take everything away from a labour of absolute love. They had fire and water and from 3000BC hardened copper chisels. Creating something extraordinary and using such ingenuity and brute force to do it, including unfortunately elephants and horses and youngsters. So what if each piece of pink granite pyramid casing had to be smoothed and it took many exhausting hours to do. Or years. Hieroglyphs abound showing them doing it. And stones and gems polished with sand by hand. It takes time. But there is something everlastingly beautiful to show for it. Broadband will not take as long but look at the mess and effort involved by thousands of people with modern equipment, which just replicates the stone hammers of old. That was an eye opener for me. i quite liked the laser theory as it seems an easy way out. No lasers back there believe it or not. Much more environmentally friendly than them.

The same cannot be said for the many luxury items in our houses laboriously and skillfully constructed by children in Asia. But we would call those Ancient Egyptian craftmen and farmers slaves, compared to us. We are the masters in our houses watching that TV. They are our slaves out there rummaging through our rubbish to recycle the bags or worse making the TV carcinogenic components.

Stonehenge possibly had a blue stone brought from a sacred stone circle in Wales every 10 years. Parties all along the way. One 'lost' bluestone was found off just off the coast in the Severn Estuary. I can imagine how hard they tried to recover it and the many ingenious suggestions for trying for years. It was a very precious stone but needed by the sea perhaps. Or even put there. You can see the British do not polish their stones like the nifty Egyptians. What we cannot see are the magnificent tents and wall hangings that they had. Artist impressions show rough unfurnished huts. A cold country is more of an inside country, interior world. Always a fire. More Emin than Amun perhaps. An old uncomfortable hall or a cosy flat.


23-11-2011, 10:01 PM
I am only just finding out. I hope my sense of humour is the last sense to go.

Sleep well and sweet dreams

reve x

27-11-2011, 12:42 PM
I am sorry that I am still mostly posting to myself. The fuse has obviously been lit in the world. I am back in cat and parrot world so my posts will probablt be shorter.

Honi soit qui mal y pense - Leo liked to talk about it. We only have very slightly different takes on it. He said it was a curse and I agree.

"Honi soit qui mal y pense" is a French phrase meaning: "Shamed be he who thinks evil of it". The phrase is sometimes rendered as "Honi soit quy mal y pense", "Hony soyt qe mal y pense", "Hony soyt ke mal y pense", "Hony soyt qui mal pence" and various other phoneticizations. It is the motto of the English chivalric Order of the Garter. Its literal translation from Old French is "Shame be to him who thinks evil of it". It is sometimes re-interpreted as "Evil be to him who evil thinks".

This statement supposedly originated when King Edward III was dancing with his first cousin and daughter-in-law, Joan of Kent. Her garter slipped down to her ankle, causing those around her to snigger at her humiliation. In an act of chivalry Edward placed the garter around his own leg, saying "Honi soit qui mal y pense", and the phrase later became the motto of the Order.

It is written on all UK passports

Leo used to say it was a green garter and the court werwe astonished as it meant she was a witch.

In fact the Templars were being rescued by the King and became Garter Knights. The most powerful barons still (look at a list of them) they still meet ion St George's Chapel at Windsor on St George's Day. The cross of St george was the Templar uniform and flag.

Is it relevant? Yes because it is where the Crusades come from. The militant war between I am and a curious branch of Christianity that believes that Jesus was in fact a scoundrel. I will post the Baines list (again) which explains exactly what they believed. But to them the conquest of Jerusalem was only the beginning.

When Nato starts a war against islam this is where it comes from. We have absolutely no say in this as it is at a quasi religous level. Conspiracy theorists look everywhere for the plotters but think the Garter Order is merely a noble British relic.

The fuse has been lit. Where are the brave Emins like Leo who could speak truly and honestly. Or do you think the Emin is ALL about singing and dancing and keeping a low profitable profile.

CP where are you. The Masons work for the Garter. Our British motto contains two words meaning evil and none meaning good.

cat says enough


27-11-2011, 01:07 PM
Christopher Marlowe apart from being one of the brilliant Shakespeare authors workes as a spy for Lord Burghley. His time was up after a man called Baines revealed what Marlowe really thought. He was supposedly killed in a house belonging to Burgley's cousin (and John Dee's!) and supposedly buried in an unmarked grave immediately. In fact he went to ireland, changed his mname and wrote. But he was one of the Templar men of the time and look at the list of what they believed (more than enough to be burned at the stake if the monarch had not shared the belief).

as above wiki again: As the foremost Elizabethan tragedian, next to William Shakespeare, he is known for his blank verse, his overreaching protagonists, and his mysterious death.

A warrant was issued for Marlowe's arrest on 18 May 1593. No reason for it was given, though it was thought to be connected to allegations of blasphemy—a manuscript believed to have been written by Marlowe was said to contain "vile heretical conceipts". On 20 May he was brought to the court to attend upon the Privy Council for questioning. There is no record of their having met that day, however, and he was commanded to attend upon them each day thereafter until "licensed to the contrary." Ten days later, he was stabbed to death by Ingram Frizer. Whether the stabbing was connected to his arrest has never been resolved......Marlowe snatched Frizer's dagger and wounded him on the head. In the ensuing struggle, according to the coroner's report, Marlowe was stabbed above the right eye, killing him instantly. The jury concluded that Frizer acted in self-defence, and within a month he was pardoned. Marlowe was buried in an unmarked grave in the churchyard of St. Nicholas, Deptford immediately after the inquest, on 1 June 1593.

Marlowe's death is alleged by some to be an assassination for the following reasons:

1.The three men who were in the room with him when he died were all connected both to the state secret service and to the London underworld. Frizer and Skeres also had a long record as loan sharks and con-men, as shown by court records. Bull's house also had "links to the government's spy network".
2.Their story that they were on a day's pleasure outing to Deptford is alleged to be implausible. In fact, they spent the whole day together. Also, Robert Poley was carrying urgent and confidential despatches to the Queen, who was at her residence Nonsuch Palace in Surrey, but instead of delivering them, he spent the day with Marlowe and the other two, and didn't in fact hand them in until well over a week later, on 8 June.
3.It seems too much of a coincidence that Marlowe's death occurred only a few days after his arrest, apparently for heresy.
4.The manner of Marlowe's arrest is alleged to suggest causes more tangled than a simple charge of heresy would generally indicate. He was released in spite of prima facie evidence, and even though other accusations about him received within a few days, as described below, implicitly connected Sir Walter Raleigh and the Earl of Northumberland with the heresy. Thus, some contend it to be probable that the investigation was meant primarily as a warning to the politicians in the "School of Night", or that it was connected with a power struggle within the Privy Council itself.
5.The various incidents that hint at a relationship with the Privy Council (see above), and by the fact that his patron was Thomas Walsingham, Sir Francis's second cousin once removed, who had been actively involved in intelligence work.

Following Marlowe's arrest in 1593, Baines submitted to the authorities a "note containing the opinion of one Christopher Marly concerning his damnable judgment of religion, and scorn of God's word." Baines attributes to Marlowe a total of eighteen items which "scoff at the pretensions of the Old and New Testament" such as, "Christ was a bastard and his mother dishonest [unchaste]", "the woman of Samaria and her sister were whores and that Christ knew them dishonestly", and, "St John the Evangelist was bedfellow to Christ and leaned always in his bosom" (cf. John 13:23–25), and, "that he used him as the sinners of Sodom". He also implies that Marlowe had Catholic sympathies. Other passages are merely sceptical in tone: "he persuades men to atheism, willing them not to be afraid of bugbears and hobgoblins". The final paragraph of Baines' document reads:

These thinges, with many other shall by good & honest witnes be aproved to be his opinions and Comon Speeches, and that this Marlow doth not only hould them himself, but almost into every Company he Cometh he perswades men to Atheism willing them not to be afeard of bugbeares and hobgoblins, and vtterly scorning both god and his ministers as I Richard Baines will Justify & approue both by mine oth and the testimony of many honest men, and almost al men with whome he hath Conversed any time will testify the same, and as I think all men in Cristianity ought to indevor that the mouth of so dangerous a member may be stopped, he saith likewise that he hath quoted a number of Contrarieties oute of the Scripture which he hath giuen to some great men who in Convenient time shalbe named. When these thinges shalbe Called in question the witnes shalbe produced.'

Similar examples of Marlowe's statements were given by Thomas Kyd after his imprisonment and possible torture (see above); both Kyd and Baines connect Marlowe with the mathematician Thomas Harriot and Walter Raleigh's circle. Another document claimed at around the same time that "one Marlowe is able to show more sound reasons for Atheism than any divine in England is able to give to prove divinity, and that ... he hath read the Atheist lecture to Sir Walter Raleigh and others."

Like 'Shakespeare' Marlowe was gay (& as was Jesus they claimed). Raleigh was a senior figure in what they called the School of Night, either another one or the same one you can be the judge. James 1 believed in witches and torturing them himself but did not subscribe to the School and had R's head cut off.

It is good to know these things are still relevant.


28-11-2011, 11:31 AM
or at least someone is a bit touchy. Last night has the distinction of having provided the 4 worst nightmares so far, certainly a record for one night. There was really only one bad one when I left the Emin. That one however had its similarities. Bad astral dreams do, like scary movies. it must be the directors.

I am reflecting today on a particular problem. The traditional remedy for sociopaths and psychpaths is separation (selah). But when you enter a world entirely populated by them you can see that it is a hell too far. Perhaps the worst jail in the world might compare. Total fear, violence and inhibition (you dont want to be noticed in this place). That is where they go, most of them incredibly smart. How on earth can you improve things for them.

I could describe some of these dreams as they were extraordinary. My poor wife caught my legs thrashing (probably running) and me calling for the police. I guess that was pre-nightmare as there are no police to call and running would be the last thing I would have thought of doing there.

Anyway I want to do something for them. I believe most of their violence comes from fear of each other and insecurity, not anger at all. Now I regret suggesting brave Emins post their thoughts here. It is a poor climate unless one is curious to take another look and interest in bad dreams. Remember you can fly if you do. I keep forgetting until almost too late but when you do it becomes exhilaration, you are the opposite of what you felt when constrained and chased. A higher species perhaps.

My guess is I upset the guardians of the garter, masons, passport makers and emins last night so got them one after another. I hope the emins are not too upset with me. It is only pricking interest and awareness of Leo, who began so much. And trying to finish some of the bits still missing. Not for everybody's taste I would agree. Some like the taste of other creature's blood for example.

Nice blowy wettish Scottish day here


29-11-2011, 01:13 AM
She is still a member (over 40 years now) but rarely attends meetings due to long-term sickness.

I think I understand what you're saying about reincarnation. I don't really believe in it as it's normally talked about, simply because there's no evidence for it, either at an individual level or collectively (seems to me everyone born today is just as new/fresh/lacking in ancient wisdom as they've always been). I do think, however, that personal development is very much a possibility and therefore should be pursued. Any person can in essence become more aware, perceptive, understanding, connected; and the Emin taught me that such a process needs to be many-levelled, e.g. not just learnt from books. What I'm not at all sure about is what difference it makes to my continuance after death. Therefore, I believe it's safer and more honest, to accept there probably isn't any afterlife reward; but that you're going to do the best you can just because it might help someone else, somewhere somewhen. And that the more people who try, the more chance that the endless cycle of ignorance, greed and stupidity might be broken.

I take your point about copying people with a talent you're trying to develop. But not sure I agree when it comes to implying you have the same wisdom, insight and knowing that someone else does. This I think was a major problem for Emin ushers: how to on the one hand be true to your actual knowledge and experience while on the other transmitting the magic and charisma that came across from Leo.

If I recall, 'A cat is a contract' comes from the tape Leo made on Attitude. It might have been his opening statement. He talked about, for example, the ducks that once landed on his pond. He had to decide whether to chase them away or let them settle. If they settled, then he said he would have made a contract with them, which meant amongst other things that he would defend them to the death. Similarly, if you decide you want a cat, then in Leo's world that would constitute a contract between you and the cat. He didn't say you couldn't also enjoy all the stuff that people like about having pets. But the first decision is that it's a contract. This (my words) offers security for both parties, as a platform for the mutual benefits of the relationship. Such thinking sounds barmy to a lot of people I suspect; but if you really think about it, this approach is actually very sane, reliable and respectful. It also means you can trust yourself, knowing you will always honour the contract, and not be prone to fickleness.



I think I may know who you are talking about - she may be a friend of my mothers who is also a current Emin member. I am a child of 'Emin' parents and as such found it fascinating and mysterious - I used to play at the Putney centre, running around and hiding in all the rooms. I have been to lots of their events, but have never joined. Its not that I wouldnt but I guess that type of commitment is not for me at the moment. Also, I can say that to this day I still dont know what they do there. I feel cut off because my parents are not allowed to talk to me about it in detail- that I find a little strange.But I guess there's only one real way to find out

29-11-2011, 09:53 AM
Figment my kids played in the green room too and invaded meetings if they could, so did Orman's daughter Trish. Ours did not ever think of joining tg, they only had to look at us. They do not do anything they cannot talk about so maybe that is why they dont talk about it. Really they should write about it all here, why they dont and what they do. It takes courage to be open but is worthwhile.

I am down from nightmares to bad dreams. Some improvement.


PS Emin children in my experience are the real ymns.

29-11-2011, 01:05 PM

I think I may know who you are talking about - she may be a friend of my mothers who is also a current Emin member. I am a child of 'Emin' parents and as such found it fascinating and mysterious - I used to play at the Putney centre, running around and hiding in all the rooms. I have been to lots of their events, but have never joined. Its not that I wouldnt but I guess that type of commitment is not for me at the moment. Also, I can say that to this day I still dont know what they do there. I feel cut off because my parents are not allowed to talk to me about it in detail- that I find a little strange.But I guess there's only one real way to find out

Hi Figment

I am a sort of Emin child - just in that my mother joined the Emin many years before I did (my sister used to go and help her clean at Putney), but I was already in my teens when she joined.

My own children are Emin children and I am more than happy to tell them absolutely anything and everything - if only they would listen. I slip things in, but on the whole they aren't all that interested. There is nothing I wouldn't tell them though. I suppose your own parents have their own reasons for not saying anything - maybe they would rather you did your own searching and didn't want to influence you in anyway at all, which is actually, now thinking about it, really very conscious and clean.

As you were in Putney you would now be a fully grown adult - do you ask them about it now?

30-11-2011, 12:18 PM
Dear Ethra

Please excuse an Open letter but unfortunately I have been unable to write confidentially to you for around ten years, and when I tried my letters were either not passed on or ignored. I am aware that you will be reading this. You alone know the truth of this and that I would not lie.

Leo and Ruth came to me again yesterday but separately. They are both upset that you broke a promise to them and want it corrected. I mentioned my concerns and their complaint is in two parts.

Ruth claimed that you had taken them out of London and then out of the UK to a luxurious lifestyle in the US that they never wanted. She said the Emin was originally started to get Leo out of a job he hated, guarding money, and to help them with their retirement. But it was also supposed to be a true way.

Ruth is particularly concerned now with the sacrifices made by many, many Emins living in anything but luxury and the cost to their children. It got out of hand but is now inexcusable as their retirement is over. She is now supporting Orman with his virtuous work in London which I told her is named for her. That is intended as a true way not a retirement pension. She has disassociated herself entirely from the Emin and said she ‘wants her son back’. You have refused this and refused him what he is entitled to.

Leo has not yet been justified and is incensed. He cannot be disassociated from his legacy but it has also betrayed a promise you made to him. The problems as far as he is concerned are not financial at all. One concerns the Israeli Emin and its intentions. I mentioned a concern about this. He has no control over what may have become a military branch of something that cannot have a military branch. His concern is that ‘he’ may now be backing the dispossession of poor people in that part of the world and actively supporting actions that will lead to a world war. If so he wants his name removed from their actions. A statement is needed from them that their real intentions are and have always been for a fair, just and peaceful Israel, not an elitist one.

His main complaint is that you promised to continue his work but are making him an alienated figure in his world. I have explained here that the origins of the Emin are very ancient and these ancients are angry with him. The very ones who he was working with and for, and whose help he had enlisted. They will not allow his justification, he cannot be found ‘true of voice’. For an Egyptian this is worse than death.

He has tried to communicate with you many times but you have hidden your face from him. He is therefore in an impossible position as you have his ‘name’ and now use it against his wishes.

These are your ‘parents’. That gives them rights over all others in your life. They put you before their other children but you are now a cuckoo to them and have rejected them.

Other matters:

David (the London solicitor) mortgaged his house and lent the Emin around £50,000. What happened to it and to others?

They are mortified about what has happened here on the thread. If children not allowed to know what their parents are doing it is offensive, not only to me but to them. The Emin was never intended to allow you to live in luxury and hide.

It is a perilous position for you which needs putting right years ago, not now. Surely you do not think they are dead and gone. The Emin is the unseen world represented here. For Ruth to take this action is bad enough but to have a raging Leo there must be most uncomfortable.

I have my own compalints as I have been attacked by your senior officers and you have encouraged that. I am glad that Mr Icke is honest enough to resist pressure to close down the thread and CP too. No one likes the threat of legal action. You have commissioned teachers that Leo would not have let near his dear students. What on earth are you trying to do or have you lost all interest except a financial control?

If so you have chosen the wrong kind of business. I am forced to write about things like this when we should have been able to move forward. I am just a medium for Leo and Ruth and have often wished that I had not been involved as it has done nothing for me but add stress to my life. I moved on many years ago but still have a debt to my teachers. Both before and since the Emin. I cannot hide my face when they come.

A letter from you here denying all the above would be a great leap forward and what actions you are taking to ensure that Leo can be justified by his legacy.


03-12-2011, 12:02 PM
I daresay some of you mean well and think I am making an occult attack on the Emin. Last night i was again harassed and one of my tormentors used a phrase I recalled. He said he would throw me over a wall but fortunately was unable to do that. It was not Leo who is doing what he can to put things right, not make things worse. So let us go back to the tale of an Emin child and that phrase when I first heard it. It was just before I left the Emin in dismay. i was asked by Orion (then calling himself John) and a fine usher and man, to witness an interview. It was explained to me that it was utterly confidential and all i was to do was witness, so i will now bear witness.

A man I knew vaguely was called into the room under the stage at putney used by the Trio. He had been sexually abusing his young step daughter while his wife attended meetings. Orion was rightly enraged and the man's excuse was that he thought it was a wonderful experience for him and the poor girl.

I asked Orion afterwards why he had not expelled the man. Social Services and the Police should have been informed immediately but it was decided to keep this within the family. Leo knew. Orion said to this Emin man that if it happened again he would throw him over a wall.

Anyone care to comment? The truth will out (as Leo would say) and unless we put all these matters right the Emin and Leo will not be justified obviously. All it takes is one abused childhood to undo all our work, many centuries added together. it is truue of religions today that cover up their abuse. I cannot even remember the man's name but I could not sit in a room with him thereafter and it influenced me to work with victims of abuse in London after this.

Why am I still being attacked. Have the Emin instructed members not to look here or post here? I am going nowhere but am shocked that supposedly advanced people can act in such a way. Orion also told me that there were many incidents like this which he had to deal with while Leo was away and that i would be shocked if I knew about them!

Time is ticking away. Be courageous those of you still daring to peep at the thread. We have to put this right. Ethra's containment is the emperor's new costume made for him by fairies at enormous cost. Can you come off it please Ethra and engage before it is too late and our wonderful Emin is lost. Covering things up does not work when they want to weigh your hearts.

reve x (love to old friends if I still have any)

03-12-2011, 04:17 PM
So we come to the crux, the crossroads or cross. Many are.

To put this right is quite simple. Leo left behind him a treasury and it must be used to compensate and put right old Emin debts before it is used for a luxurious lifestyle or to pay ushers, who should be doing it for love not money anyway. Ethra you must compensate:

(1) Victims of abuse whose cases were notified to Emin senior officers, or where Emin officers were aware of the abuse and did nothing
(2) Anyone traumatised by the Emin officers to the effect that it adversely affected the rest of their life.

The first includes all the women abused by ushers, or sexually assaulted in any way. That would include the naked massages done for so called healings too. They were not done naked for healing. And any who were coerced to participate in such activities because they were explicitly told this would advance their Emin, which in many cases may have happened to their later detriment. Ethra you must know of some of these cases.

You must contact Orion, or look in your diaries to find the name of that child and any others and immediately make a compensatory gesture to try to put this right for them. Leo used to say everyone and everything has its price. At my local golf club last week a man was awarded £750,000 for losing an eye. He did not duck in time. The only question is who is at fault. The golfer who did not intend to do this or the club. That is the crux. In our case the only way to alleviate Leo’s debt is to accept that it is the club and to do it now.

I am aware you were all wondering how to get me extradited to a Florida penal colony in some alligator infested swamp under that unfair one way treaty we have with the US, but as they say the law is not an ass. If the Catholic church can do it so can we. The Pope did not want to go to hellfire neither does our Leo. They are ultimately responsible for all the mistakes they covered up.

First you admit it, then you apologise for it, then you compensate and balance it. As I personally know of several instances of this I am not writing rubbish. I am whistle blowing if you like on Leo’s behalf and also to ensure the victims are recompensed before they die. You should provide a confidential email address here at least where they can send their complaints.

Next let us look at the money side. I am a UK taxpayer and out of my taxed income paid from 10% to over 30% in subscriptions at times. When I left a very reliable source told me of the occasions the subs money went straight from Putney to Crockford’s casino. So was this after tax? I know it was a big cash business, is it still? Is this why it moved to the US, for Leo’s economic health? That money is to put right any number of mistakes, even if they were made in wannabe innocence. You must not hide the cash or say it is Template money not Emin money. It is Leo’s money and this is what he wants done with it. In my imagination of course. I know of not one Emin member who would have been happy for their hard earned subscriptions to go to Crockfords casino. Nor one who would not want it now used to put right past mistakes.

Any comments on the crux? May I point out I have written many glorious things here about Leo and his Emin and am obliged to write the rest of the story as I know it. Leo will otherwise go down in history as someone suggested here ‘a scam artist’. You can imagine how he feels about that.

Reve x

05-12-2011, 11:19 AM
It looks very quiet but is anything but quiet in the unseen worlds at the moment as some will be aware. Unseen worlds might include closed meetings and offices but I am not meaning them. Isn't it amazing how there is someone selling something everywhere, probably even next to this post and outside every temple. `

Now I will be honest. I cannot think of anything that Ethra has ever done to upset anyone really and I have been particularly hard on dea here. The problem is that when you try to awaken a giant you have to use your heavy hammer, then they say 'was that an acorn falling on my head?'. Or 'hi what is all the fuss about?' after a decade of knocking.

To be clear all it is about is Leo banging on my head with a heavy hammer asking me to pass on a message. He is in trouble and needs our help. I pass on the message as well as I can but find, as usual, it is the messenger who gets shot.

snow here
reve x

05-12-2011, 04:28 PM
I suppose your own parents have their own reasons for not saying anything - maybe they would rather you did your own searching and didn't want to influence you in anyway at all, which is actually, now thinking about it, really very conscious and clean.

Once, on an out-of-London Emin course, I stayed with a couple who were members of the local Emin group. I liked them very much: down to earth, generous and funny. The house was normal, by which I mean it didn't possess any occult symbols or other signs that its occupants were 'into' anything strange. I did notice, however, some photos of Leo on one of the walls that looked as if they'd been taken personally, but thought little of it. Anyway, right at the end of the week, the woman told me that she was Leo's daughter. She said her parents had never pressed her to join the Emin, and that she'd gone to an open meeting on the strength of her interest in the poster, not even realising it was the Emin. She also didn't at first tell anyone in the group who she was, apart from the usher, who eventually convinced her she should. Of course, I asked her what it was like, growing up with Leo, and she said, "Just like the stories".

05-12-2011, 04:36 PM
I demand absolute anonymity for any victims coming forward. The cases I mention I have been unable to discuss with the actual victims but I will provide Ethra with what details I can when she contacts me confidentially.

In the seventies I was walking up Pond Street in Hampstead with Orman on our way to a meeting in St Andrews. Oddly enough we were walking past the Royal Free Hospital at the time, which is where the perpetrator of this shocking abuse died some months later.

Orman was fed up. He had been charged by Leo to resolve a very serious matter. One of our younger Emin women had complained that she had been raped by an usher. What was alleged was that she had been suffering with a migraine and this usher told her he could take it away by massaging her legs. But he did not stop there and totally against her wishes had unprotected sex with her. That I am sorry to say is the Emin’s responsibility totally. Healings like that were practically hypnotic. Those licensed to do them (silver beacons) did so on trust. We trusted them as Leo had personally trained them.

Orman was hopping mad and told me he had a mind to throw both of them out of the Emin! At this point I need to explain that to our mindset in those days this could be equated to an absolute catastrophe. The Emin was extremely important to us and was made to be. To lose your Emin was like losing your life.

I do not know how it was managed thereafter but the Police were not allowed to be involved and again it was kept in the family. Certainly there was absolutely no compensation. But what I strongly remember was that this usher was shortly diagnosed with incurable cancer. Leo told us he had been at his bedside, done everything he could and amazed the doctors at the hospital by removing the cancer entirely, however the man drowned on the water that was left behind. The Emin was in mourning for him but absolutely no one was concerned (or even knew) about the poor woman he had so recently abused. Can any of you imagine how painful this must have been for her watching the man glorified and made to feel like the culprit?

Where is the confidential email address? The Emin website will not reply to me, is not confidential and I have no phone numbers. I know senior Template officers read these posts and report them but treat me like a leper in days of old. These matters were known ten to the Trio and need putting right by compensating the victims. Keep it in the family if you will, avoid class action prosecutions but DEAL with them. How dreadful it is for me having to post about this sort of thing here of all places.

I am more concerned for the victims than Leo, Ruth and Ethra who are ultimately held responsible as the God and Goddesses of our Emin, but Leo is screaming in pain about his legacy. Now I will swear on oath to any Court about these matters and the ushers Orion and Orman can confirm these things, as can the victims if they have a confidential place to explain what happened to traumatise them forever. They are just cases I happen to know about. How many more must there be?

A lot of senior Emins have passed away and I am sorry to say that they have taken complaints with them too, which cannot then be resolved by compensation, only by the truth emerging.

I am so sorry that all of this was dealt with in a seventies cultish way. It was quite common in cults as it happens. Do I have to go on day by day recalling these things that disgrace us all or are you going to explain here publicly what you intend to do about it?

Should you not believe me I call on Orman who has posted here to state whether I am a liar or truthsayer. But Ethra you cannot say you do not know anything about this particular case because I cannot imagine much else was talked about at home when the more or less instant karma kicked in (for the perpetrator not the victim, who was not a person to lie either).

Reading about multi million dollar residences on the beach does not help those so badly treated. They will all take the complaints direct to Leo when they die. And he is screaming for you Ethra to do something about it before it is too late for all of you. Believe or not, you know him better than me.

I am a gentle and patient man but am getting very upset that the senior Template officers are still determined to cover up things they know absolutely nothing about. Moreover they dare to say that the last member of the Trio is in ‘containment’ and cannot be disturbed. I understand that ’Ken’ meets with Ethra regularly. He better be discussing this with her next time. If she has not been informed yet all hell will break loose on their heads I would imagine. Any Template reader must inform their senior officers to ensure that Ken is told. It is a duty.

Start a compensation fund immediately please and inform your insurers about these matters as I am sure you were insured against such things.

Reve (thank you CP and Mr Icke for allowing me to bring these matters to light at last and please excuse me for using your site for that)

06-12-2011, 09:55 AM
It is a curious custom, shunning. It is definitely an Emin thing but very hard to understand why except that was when leo went soft in the head. Wiki says quite a lot about it mostly spot on, they mention Jehiovahj's Witnesses, Scientology etc doing this but think the Emin not worth a mention. How wrong they are and how silly anyone is who puts their head in the sand at such a time as aquiescence is a very great crime in the unseen judgement to everyone's amazement when it happens. They will complain that there was nothing they could do, they would attract hostility themselves, wre 'only taking orders'. That is why it is next to impossible to get through the post death tests. One way is to spend scores of generations as an untouchable of course which many sages employ. They have their own special gate and far outnumber other groups. These are the ones who as children have to clean the others' sewers by hand, are not allowed in their houses or to be touched. You will see them smiling often as their spirits are so strong but they bring complaints with them eventually and those who literally defectae on them can never be justified. It is with considerable interest that I read of people who came with their parents to clean the Emin toilets. Even Leo said the Abbots would do this once a year but he never helped us with the actual job as I recall, nor the Trio nor the ushers. Never mind we were the real ymns. Now of course they shun us because we dare to speak out and they would prefer it happened in private at their summary judgemen. Leo is on the verge of his and will not be let through if this is what happens to the poor messenger. Even his little message is untouchable!

wiki:Shunning can be the act of social rejection, or mental rejection. Social rejection is when a person or group deliberately avoids association with, and habitually keeps away from an individual or group. This can be a formal decision by a group, or a less formal group action which will spread to all members of the group as a form of solidarity. It is a sanction against association, often associated with religious groups and other tightly knit organizations and communities. Targets of shunning can include persons who have been labeled as, apostates, whistleblowers, dissidents, scabs, or anyone the group perceives as a threat or source of conflict. Social rejection has been established to cause psychological damage and has been categorized as torture. Mental rejection is a more individual action, where a person subconsciously or willfully ignores an idea, or a set of information related to particular viewpoint. Some groups are made up of people who shun the same ideas. Social rejection was and is a punishment used by many customary legal systems. Such sanctions include the ostracism of ancient Athens and the still-used kasepekang in Balinese society.....Shunning can be broken down into behaviours and practices that seek to accomplish either or both of two primary goals.

1.To modify the behaviour of a member. This approach seeks to influence, encourage, or coerce normative behaviours from members, and may seek to dissuade, provide disincentives for, or to compel avoidance of certain behaviours. Shunning may include disassociating from a member by other members of the community who are in good standing. It may include more antagonistic psychological behaviours (described below). This approach may be seen as either corrective or punitive (or both) by the group membership or leadership, and may also be intended as a deterrent.
2.To remove or limit the influence of a member (or former member) over other members in a community. This approach may seek to isolate, to discredit, or otherwise dis-empower such a member, often in the context of actions or positions advocated by that member. For groups with defined membership criteria, especially based on key behaviours or ideological precepts, this approach may be seen as limiting damage to the community or its leadership. This is often paired with some form of excommunication....Stealth shunning is a practice where a person or an action is silently banned. When a person is silently banned, the group they have been banned from doesn't interact with them. This can be done by secretly announcing the policy to all except the banned individual, or it can happen informally when all people in a group or email list each conclude that they do not want to interact with the person. When an action is silently banned, requests for that action are either ignored or turned down with faked explanations.[3][4][5][6][7][8]

[edit] EffectsShunning is often used as a pejorative term to describe any organizationally mandated disassociation, and has acquired a connotation of abuse and relational aggression. This is due to the sometimes extreme damage caused by its disruption to normal relationships between individuals, such as friendships and family relations. Disruption of established relationships certainly causes pain, which is at least an unintended consequence of the practices described here, though it may also in many cases be an intended, coercive consequence. This pain, especially when seen as unjustly inflicted, can have secondary general psychological effects on self-worth and self-confidence, trust and trustworthiness, and can, as with other types of trauma, impair psychological function.

Shunning often involves implicit or explicit shame for a member who commits acts seen as wrong by the group or its leadership. Such shame may not be psychologically damaging if the membership is voluntary and the rules of behavior were clear before the person joined. However, if the rules are arbitrary, if the group membership is seen as essential for personal security, safety, or health, or if the application of the rules is inconsistent, such shame can be highly destructive. This can be especially damaging if perceptions are attacked or controlled, or various tools of psychological pressure applied. Extremes of this cross over the line into psychological torture and can be permanently scarring.

How bad can we get as a group I wonder. Next I will be asking about the young women (not the men of course) asked to strip naked for Leo's healings and why that would have been necessary. I have spoken to a few women about these to try to understand but even they were uncomfortable about it. Someone else would be there dopubtless as a witness but really that makes it a bit institutional and worse. There is much more to discuss and I do not want to overload. But poor Leo wants his conscience cleared. He did not mean to do evil in the sight of the Lord but if not put right that will be the conclusion to this.

reve x

07-12-2011, 10:01 AM
Can I please make an open request to the site moderators to remove this man's posts from this thread or if not, remove the thread itself. I don't know much about David Icke but I would not believe that he wants his name associated with this kind of nasty character attack, justified by the absurd claim to be 'channelling' Leo.

I was an Emin member for many years. Of course it wasn't perfect but I have many positive memories of my time there, along with the ongoing benefit of its principles still informing my life and keeping me sane in a fragmented and unstable world. I was not 'shunned' after I left. I worked with Leo on many occasions and watched him take meetings hundreds of times. One of the things that struck me deeply about Leo was his standards - which were active and responsive, not manufactured on the spot according to current need (as you get, for example, with many politicians). Put simply, I greatly admired him as a man, aside from whatever he may have been in terms of a spiritual leader. And for that reason, I'm deeply offended by these posts and ask that they be removed or, at the very least, that Reve refrains from posting any more.


07-12-2011, 06:33 PM
I dont know who you are JennM but I post with my Emin name and others remember me. If you will not address these things then desist posting yourself. Was Leo's channelling of Toir absurd? When he said his head was going soft and his brain about to unfurl in the 'event' was he mad?. He probably died with a normal skull. Remind us who you are. I have glorified Leo here and repeated many of his good lessons and inspiring actions. I seek justice for the many victims who unlike you were not respected teachers but untouchables like me. Not only that I have tried discreetly for ten years!


Am I really on my own with this? Where is Ethra?

08-12-2011, 09:07 AM
Dear JennM

You are a mother and I cannot believe your heart does not go out to the child abused while her lovely Mum tried to make it to meetings. We all took risks with babysitting then but assumed Emins were safe people to leave the kids with. Pressure to attend meetings was enormous. These days we would not be so naive. By ignoring my post and focussing on Leo's daughter, then demanding they close the thread down you are displaying typical shunning mentality. I and many others leaving when I did were shunned. Ro even swore at one in Putney after asking her to come down to the Temple (to be humiliated it turned out).

We are beset by hurricanes today and I had noticed this kind of weather after a post of mine a while ago. Circles of 'magicians' have always been able to cause storms, but if one innocent is hurt it goes down on the account. Please God some idiots out there are not angry like you and doing this. But from what you write I can see it will be almost impossible to have the Emin justified, and Leo. He is on borrowed time.

That man taught us to channel, and mum by the way. But that is not what happened - he came to me in dreams. Why dont you have a chat with him yourself? I am sure you can sit down look at his photo and ask him if I am right or a liar as you suggest. Then be open to what he says and do not force him to say in your imagination what you expect or want to hear.

That you were a teacher is another worry I have. Also that you post anonymously. Look at your kids today and tell us all what you would do if your partner had been sexually abusing them while you were teaching.

I know you are not happy about me raising Leo's healings. But you did raise his daughter. Did she tell you how she felt when Ethra joined the family? How would your kids feel about that?

reve x (Turn off the storm please)


08-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Hello Reve

I think it is a shame that a thread that had been started simply to innocently say hello to other ex (and as it turned out, current) Emin members has now turned into something that has become overly heated.

I really don't think that anyone that you feel you want to speak with would join in this thread, if they even know of it's existance. I don't think you will find the answers to your questions here at all.

I am sure that if you contacted some of the people that were part of your Emin groups that you could find ways of finding out what you need to know better than trying here.

I am with JennM on this. This is not the place to set out on a personal vendetta - the Emin is very open, unhidden and welcomes anyone who has an interest in self development. There is nothing insidious or nasty going on - and never does. That goes against the principles of what the Emin stands for and so wouldn't be able to grow.

I really hope you can find peace and quiet in your life.


08-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Dear Andrea you mean well, I think. i know you are a mother, another emin mum who is ignoring that poor child. You were kindly going to pass on my ooriginal message to Ken I remember. Well he did not reply and no one will and this is the only place I can get in touch, whether others are interested or not. It was started by CP and then you invited us to share our experiences. I cannot think your inner life was happy writing that to me, nor JennM. You both need to talk to Leo urgently!

The Beast:

Perhaps unintentionally Leo created his own beast. He would say that the Revelation of St John anagrammed to ‘I reveal not’. But it does reveal the template for the Beast which I wrote about with reference to Dracon the Athenian nightmare. St John was Greek and had him in mind and also the Emperor Nero, 666 like Crowley.

The Beast I am writing about is our very own however.

You may recall that in Revelations the ‘Dragon’ empowered the Beast with 10 heads. Eventually the beast was consigned to the abyss, not the Dragon. Leo was our own dragon (Dear Dragon = A Red Dragon). He proudly wore this creature emblazoned on his tunic, as did many of us if we could afford the nice looking tunics (which did somewhat alarm my dad I recall but I did not have one when he visited).

Emin Ten was the Eminent (anag) but was then given the name of the Beast. I objected to the term ‘eminent way’as it is elitist but nothing as bad as ‘The Church of the Emin Coils‘. This may be ‘dormant’ but I suspect it is not and it is still registered in the US I think. It was a terrible idea. The Emin was fine but when we became a Church many of us could not take such a change. It was almost against everything Leo had taught about the Way. ‘Churches’ are first mentioned in Revelations incidentally and even then were a problem and needed telling off by St John. The idea is to worship the founder which is supposed to aid their afterlife. But this one is dragging him down to the pit. Leo wants it consigned and I hope that Ethra has the sense to do this forthwith.

I was summoned by Leo. He used to say Crowley summoned Pan then died with a cerabral haemmorghage and had a heart attack as he got more than he bargained for. So with Leo. I was summoned and this is what he got, the whole story. And all because the lady like black magic as they say! I am only joking but working for the Beast is not far off it in my view.

reve (still writing on behalf of Leo as far as I am concerned. Please check and let me know if you can whether that is what he says to you, or refrain from criticising me for doing this for him)

PS: Yes David Icke the ‘coils’ are a bit reptilian are they not. Thanks for keeping the thread open but if they talk about suing you, close it down. You have been a bastion of honesty and a sanctuary when one was needed but I would never want you harmed financially or facing more US courts. You have done your bit and it is fine. I wish you were not undermined by your adversaries on your own Forum but it does happen on most unless you ban posts left right and centre. They start threads with appalling titles suggesting the site has nazty sympathies, but these threads are started by those people whose interests are served by closing down anyone daring to challenge the way our world is run and they make out they are on your side. Beware because some close to you when you need them will suddenly announce you are an anti Semitic fascist. It is how they work, get close to put the dagger in. If ‘Emin’ lawyers are harassing you let me know and I will try to help in my way. It is me they want. I hate the idea of no win no fee lawyers getting involved in a family disagreement but that is how corporations think and that is what our little family turned into it appears. A Beast. But it can be put right!

I am only asking for recompense for the few victims and do not doubt the successes. It is a small world indeed. Where is the head of our Emin? Revelations suggests that if you cut one head off a Beast another takes its place, which can go on for millennia and that is exactly what we (Leo and me)are so frightened of. I think they all dropped Leo long ago reading what Template people say about him and it now.
All the best


09-12-2011, 09:29 AM
I was thinking about this JennM and you are right this should stop now. Our readership has tripled overnight and it is bad for business. However you are an ex member. Really to stop it one must know more about the top of the pyramid.

Emin members kept their noses out of this when Leo was alive because he was. But is Ethra or is she, as I suggested a while ago, locked in the basement unable to contact us? We have 'Ken's' word that is not the case. I am not sure of I know (ken round here) Ken but his comment on this is sorely absent.

At the top of the not for profit pyramid (from what I can see on Florida State info) is the for profit corporation, fairly obviously as it has to go somewhere and this was to Ruth, Leo and Ethra (RLE corporation). Fine that is how it works and Ethra is the President, Treasurer and Secretary.

But then they said it has a relationship with a company called Future Forward LLC by virtue of her relationship with Dan Davidi. So when you looked at him it used to say he ran Future Forward and had a relationship with Ethra (Deborah C Mckay). I have no qualms about this she must have connections with Feminenza, Template everything. But I notice that today Dan is missing and it is Ethra seems to run Future Forward LLC. My memory may be failing me but that is sort of it, but have a look yourselves and correct me. All perfectly legal of course or it would not be there would it? I am not making any untoward suggestions at all. What I am interested in is 'Future Forward'.

Now I never heard of Dan Davidi until I was directed to him one day by my imagination that was not remotely interested in the subject. I read what was put before me and filed it. But Future Forward is a fascinating name isn't it, particularly if you look back on this thread and its relationship to a form of imaginary time travel. And there it is, up at the top of the pyramid in a sense. I don't know who the man is, or was as he is not active now it says. Anyway it may be I do know him by his Emin name. I would love to hear from him too about his work. I could not google much out of the name except a corporate training programme which advertises a firm of lawyers!

So let's stop it now Ethra and put absolutely everything right for all of us, but particularly the old man. The Emin is a society with many members in many ages. We do not want it to be a corporation and the school does not like it. Leo had lost control of it and has worried me for a decade on this subject. I have got my own work to do but it is intricately bound up with the larger non corporate Emin (Ymn) and i am the only one able to speak out openly about this, which I have had to do because in my opinion you have been (metaphorically) tied to a chair in the basement.

Now if you are free can we have a chat about our Emins? I really do not want to upset the likes of JennM and Andrea who are happy about it all, but hope even they have learned something from this conversation. And maybe something about our world too from this whole website and its curious titled threads. I am not being horrible but playful but you know how they worry for you. Leo says hello.

reve x

12-12-2011, 10:29 AM
Good morning all. Has anyone had a contact with Leo, a dream or imaginary visit? We are still under attack in Glasgow unfortunately and next up is Thunder snow, a rare phenomenon and more hurricanes. I cannot allow this to go on and beseech Ethra to intervene or contact me if unable to stop this kind of meddling. The elementals are enraged.


12-12-2011, 01:22 PM
but in spite of your efforts the central heating and hot water just went down! I am restraining myself but the animals are getting cold too. I would think this coincidental but am informed otherwise. O Dea

reve x

Leo will be visiting those still laughing.

12-12-2011, 04:17 PM
The thunder snow may still be coming but the thunderbolt just hit me. The Earth Goddess herself may be enraged. Here i was trying to rescue her ever since I saw her poster, help this lady,,, like any good emin and all I have done is upset her. In my micro imaginary world of course.

In the real world they have set hanuman's tail on fire but forgot to read the ending of the story. After ragnarok the world is set alight by it and the darkness is dispelled. No wonder we are all so gloomy it is still dark. As dark as it gets in fact.

Brrrrr help is on the way


13-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Life goes on. You will all know about the sign of the fish. Leo said Jesus was a Pisces, we are or were in the age of Pisces etc. You see the fish on lots of cars these days. Someone asked recently about the sign of 3 red fish and it got me thinking because the Athenian dreamstone (I have not photographed and uploaded yet but will) also has 2 red fish which are definitely pre-Christian. Christ in the bible you may know was a story not a person and even the most senior Catholic scholars admit this but still claim a spiritual Christ.

There are a few links with fish and water signs around the world, Oannes was half man half fish. And the fish is an ancient occult symbol. The Greek for fish is Icthys - here is a bit of wiki (Wiki show the lapis manalis (underworld or flowing stone I call a dreamstone) and a stone inscribed which is very similar to the one I will upload minus the interesting symbols. I am putting it all in

Ichthys, from Koine Greek: ἰχθύς, (capitalized ΙΧΘΥΣ or ΙΧΘΥϹ) is the Greek word for "fish". In English, this refers to a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish, used by early Christians as a secret symbol and now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish."....Ichthys was adopted as a Christian symbol....
An early circular ichthys symbol, created by combining the Greek letters ΙΧΘΥΣ, Ephesus.ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthys) is an acronym for "Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior".

Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus".
Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed".
Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God".
Ypsilon (y) is the first letter of (h)yios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son" (the initial "h" was sometimes pronounced, depending on dialect and period, but in Ionic orthography the sound was written with the rough breathing diacritical mark instead of a full letter, and so would not be used to form an acronym).
Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior".
Historians say the 20th-century use of the ichthys motif is an adaptation based on an Early Christian symbol which included a small cross for the eye or the Greek letters "ΙΧΘΥΣ".

An ancient adaptation of ichthys is a wheel which contains the letters ΙΧΘΥΣ superimposed such that the result resembles an eight-spoked wheel.

Fish in the Gospels are mentioned and given symbolic meaning several times in the Gospels. Several of Jesus' twelve Apostles were fishermen. He commissions them with the words "I will make you fishers of men".

At the feeding of the five thousand, a boy is brought to Jesus with "five small loaves and two fish". The question is asked, "But what are they, among so many?" Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish to feed the multitude.

In Matthew 13:47-50, the Parable of Drawing in the Net, Jesus compares God's decision on who will go to heaven or to hell ("the fiery furnace") at the end of this world to fishers sorting out their catch, keeping the good fish and throwing the bad fish away.

In John 21:11, it is related that the disciples fished all night but caught nothing. Jesus instructed them to cast the nets on the other side of the boat, and they drew in 153 fish.

A less commonly cited use of fish in Christ's life may be found in the words of Matthew 17:24-27, in which, upon being asked if his Teacher does not pay the temple (two-drachma) tax, Simon Peter answers, "Yes." Christ tells Peter to go to the water and cast a line. He says that a coin sufficient for the tax will be found in the fish's mouth. Peter does as told and finds the coin.

the ichthys is seen in 1st-century catacombs in Rome.

According to tradition, ancient Christians, during their persecution by the Roman Empire in the first few centuries after Christ, used the fish symbol to mark meeting places and tombs, or to distinguish friends from foes:

…when a Christian met a stranger in the road, the Christian sometimes drew one arc of the simple fish outline in the dirt. If the stranger drew the other arc, both believers knew they were in good company. Current bumper-sticker and business-card uses of the fish hearken back to this practice. The symbol is still used today to show that the bearer is a practicing Christian.

Funerary stele with the inscription ΙΧΘΥC ΖΩΝΤΩΝ ("fish of the living"), early 3rd century, National Roman MuseumThere are several other hypotheses as to why the fish was chosen. Some sources indicate that the earliest literary references came from the recommendation of Clement of Alexandria to his readers (Paedagogus, III, xi) to engrave their seals with the dove or fish. However, it can be inferred from Roman monumental sources such as the Capella Greca and the Sacrament Chapels of the catacomb of St. Callistus that the fish symbol was known to Christians much earlier. Another probable explanation is that it is a reference to the scripture in which Jesus miraculously feeds 5,000 people with fish and bread (Matthew 14:15-21, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:12-17, and John 6:4-13). The ichthys may also relate to Jesus or his disciples as "fishers of men" (e.g., Mark 1:17). Tertullian, in his treatise On Baptism, makes a pun on the word, writing that "we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ, are born in water." Still another explanation could be the reference to The Sign of Jonah. Just like he was in the belly of a big fish, so Christ was crucified, entombed for three days, and then rose from the dead.

Pre-Christian useFish may have been used as symbols before Christianity, possibly representing several goddesses; it has been associated with Aphrodite, Atargatis, Dagon, Ephesus, Isis, Delphine and Pelagia. Barbara Walker, in her book The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects, suggests that Ichthys was the son of the sea goddess Atargatis and that his symbol was a representation of sexuality and fertility. The fish has also been used to symbolize Pisces, the Zodiac sign. The Sun was in Pisces, the fish, on the Vernal Equinox shortly before the founding of Christianity and, depending on the line of demarcation, may remain so for approximately 600 more years, though this is a topic of debate: see Astrological age.

In non-Christian religious symbolism, the pointed oval or vesica piscis shape can represent the female genitalia.

In other words they are not sure why they use the sign of the fish, but it means something and is a secret sign. In the case that came up recently someone had seen the red fish, a small boy and a bridge on a 16th century document and then found it somewhere else on an occult treatise and was wondering if they are red herrings. Glasgow is famous for it's fish (a red salmon) which swallows a ring:-

Many people, including Glaswegians themselves, are only vaguely aware of the stories and legends associated with the coat of arms. So here is the background to:

There's the tree that never grew,
There's the bird that never flew,
There's the fish that never swam,
There's the bell that never rang.
The Tree That Never Grew
The tree in the coat of arms is a now sturdy oak tree, but it started out as a branch of a hazel tree. The legend says that St Mungo was in charge of a holy fire in St Serf's Monastery and fell asleep. Some boys who were envious of his favoured position with St Serf put out the fire. But St Mungo broke off some frozen branches from a hazel tree and, by praying over them, caused them to burst into flames.
The Bird That Never Flew
This commemorates a wild robin which was tamed by St Serf and which was accidentally killed. St Mungo was blamed for the death but he is said to have taken the dead bird, prayed over it and it was restored to life.
The Fish That Never Swam

The coat of arms always shows the fish with a ring held in its mouth. This is because a King of Strathclyde had given his wife a ring as a present. But the Queen gave it to a knight who promptly lost it. Some versions of the story say that the King took the ring while the knight was asleep and threw it in the river. The King then demanded to see the ring - threatening death to the Queen if she could not do so. The knight confessed to St Mungo who sent a monk to catch a fish in the river Clyde. When this was brought back (presumably catching salmon in the Clyde in those days was a lot easier then!) St Mungo cut open the fish and found the ring. When the Bishop of Glasgow was designing his own seal around 1271, he used the illustration of a salmon with a ring in its mouth and this has come down to us in today's coat of arms.

The illustration here is of an ornate lamppost, incorporating all the symbols of the coat of arms. It is located near Glasgow Cathedral - founded nearly 1500 years ago by St Mungo. http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_flourish.htm

I only met Mungo recently but the great charity which helps the homeless was named for St Mungo by the Glaswegian that started it. Poor salmon but it would have been cut up anyway once caught. Both the dreamstones also show an anchor in the form of two hooks. I will upload my photo today if poss and see if anyone can crack this little occult mystery. In Glasgow's arms the tree of life with its little bird is growing out of the fish's back. Everyone should try to visit this wonderful place at least once in their life!

when it is a bit less windy perhaps..

reve x

13-12-2011, 07:17 PM
The Great Goddess, Vishnu and Manu all are represented as fish:
Wiki: Matsya (Sanskrit: मत्स्य) (Fish in Sanskrit) was the first Avatar of Vishnu in Hinduism. The great flood finds mention in Hindu mythology texts like the Satapatha Brahmana, where in the Matsya Avatar takes place to save the pious and the first man, Manu and advices him to build a giant boat.

According to the Matsya Purana, the king of pre-ancient Dravida and a devotee of Vishnu, Satyavrata who later was known as Manu was washing his hands in a river when a little fish swam into his hands and pleaded with him to save its life. He put it in a jar, which it soon outgrew. He then moved it to a tank, a river and then finally the ocean but to no avail. The fish then revealed himself to be Vishnu and told him that a deluge would occur within seven days that would destroy all life. Therefore, Satyavrata was instructed to take "all medicinal herbs, all the varieties of seeds, and accompanied by the seven saints” along with the serpent Vasuki and other animals. Lord Matsya is generally represented as a four-armed figure with the upper torso of a man and the lower of a fish.....

Oannes (Ὡάννης, Hovhannes [Հովհաննես] in Armenian) was the name given by the Babylonian writer Berossus in the 3rd century BCE to a mythical being who taught mankind wisdom. Berossus describes Oannes as having the body of a fish but underneath the figure of a man. He is described as dwelling in the Persian Gulf, and rising out of the waters in the daytime and furnishing mankind instruction in writing, the arts and the various sciences.

The name "Oannes" was once conjectured to be derived from that of the ancient Babylonian god Ea, but it is now known that the name is the Greek form of the Babylonian Uanna (or Uan) a name used for Adapa in texts from the Library of Ashurbanipal.The Assyrian texts attempt to connect the word to the Akkadian for a craftsman ummanu but this is merely a pun.

Iosif Shklovsky and Carl Sagan cited tales of Oannes as deserving closer scrutiny as a possible instance of paleocontact due to its consistency and detail.

Dagon was the god of the Philistines. The idol was represented in the combination of both man and fish. The name 'Dagon' is derived from 'dag' which means 'fish'. Although there was a deep affection from Dagon's worshippers to their deity, the symbol of a fish in human form was really meant to represent fertility and the vivifying powers of nature and reproduction

The mitre on the head of the goddess Cybele is striking similarity to the 'fish head' of the God Dagon. The Great Goddess of Asia Minor is the oldest true Goddess known, predating the Goddesses of the Sumerian and Egyptians by at least 5,000 years. Cybele was worshipped in Rome and was also called the "Magna Mater", or the great queen mother goddess, which evolved into Catholic Mariology.

Sumer where kingship first descended from heaven. EA was thought to live in the 'Apsu' or submarine palace. Zoroaster can be seen above the amphibious gods

The Chinese have maintained that their civilization was founded by amphibious beings that had a man's head and a fish tail. The entity, named Fuxi, has been depicted as both male or female. The date traditionally ascribed to him is 3,322BC. In Chinese mythology, Fu Xi or Fu Hsi was the first of the mythical Three Sovereigns of ancient China. He is a culture hero reputed to be the inventor of writing, fishing, and trapping.

Fu Xi was born on the lower-middle reaches of the Yellow River in a place called Chengji (possibly modern Lantian, Shaanxi or Tianshui, Gansu). According to legend the land was swept by a great flood and only Fuxi and his sister Nuwa survived. The retired to Kunlun Mountain where they prayed for a sign from the Emperor of Heaven. The divine being approved their union and the siblings set about procreating the human race. Fu Xi then came to rule over his decedents although reports of his long reign vary between sources from 115 years (2852 - 2737 BCE) to 116 years (2952-2836 BCE). He lived for 197 years altogether and died at a place called Chen (modern Huaiyang, Henan) where his mausoleum can still be found.

According to Ovid, Glaucus began life as a mortal fisherman living in the Boeotian city of Anthedon. He discovered by accident a magical herb which could bring the fish he caught back to life, and decided to try eating it. The herb made him immortal, but also caused him to grow fins instead of arms and a fish's tail instead of legs, forcing him to dwell forever in the sea. Glaucus was initially upset by this side-effect, but Oceanus and Tethys received him well and he was quickly accepted among the deities of the sea, learning from them the art of prophecy.

Aristotle's friend, Eudoxus, visited Egypt and returned claiming that the Egyptians had a tradition that one of their gods, Osiris or Ra (from Ray of Light), could not walk because his legs had grown together.

The Fish Incarnation is the first incarnation of Vishnu. Lord Vishnu takes the form of a fish in order to retrieve the Vedas from the demon Hayagriva, who stole them from Lord Brahma. Without the Vedas, Creation of the Universe cannot take place. He slayed the demon Hayagriva, recovered the Vedas, and also saved the pious king Satyavrata from the deluge so that life and religion can be preserved for the next cycle of Creation.

The Nommo are ancestral spirits (sometimes referred to as deities) worshipped by the Dogon tribe of Mali, Africa. The word Nommos is derived from a Dogon word meaning, 'to make one drink'. The Nommos are usually described as amphibious, hermaphroditic, fish-like creatures.

Folk art depictions of the Nommos show creatures with humanoid upper torsos, legs/feet, and a fish-like lower torso and tail. The Nommos are also referred to as Masters of the Water, the Monitors, and "the Teachers. Nommo can be a proper name of an individual, or can refer to the group of spirits as a whole.

Dogon mythology states that Nommo was the first living creature created by the sky god Amma. Shortly after his creation, Nommo underwent a transformation and multiplied into four pairs of twins. One of the twins rebelled against the universal order created by Amma.

To restore order to his creation, Amma sacrificed another of the Nommo progeny, whose body was dismembered and scattered throughout the world. This dispersal of body parts is seen by the Dogon as the source for the proliferation of Binu shrines throughout the Dogons' traditional territory; wherever a body part fell, a shrine was erected.

In the latter part of the 1940's, French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen (who had been working with the Dogon since 1931) were the recipients of additional, secret mythologies, concerning the Nommo. The Dogon reportedly related to Griaule and Dieterlen a belief that the Nommos were inhabitants of a world circling the star Sirius (see the main article on the Dogon for a discussion of their astronomical knowledge).

The Nommos descended from the sky in a vessel accompanied by fire and thunder. After arriving, the Nommos created a reservoir of water and subsequently dove into the water. The Dogon legends state that the Nommos required a watery environment in which to live.

According to the myth related to Griaule and Dieterlen: "The Nommo divided his body among men to feed them; that is why it is also said that as the universe "had drunk of his body," the Nommo also made men drink. He gave all his life principles to human beings." The Nommo was crucified on a tree, but was resurrected and returned to his home world. Dogon legend has it that he will return in the future to revisit the Earth in a human form.

The Nommos bear some physical resemblance to several other mythological beings: the Oannes (Babylon), the Enki (Sumeria), Fuxi (China), Dagon (Philistine), and Nereus (Greece), to name a few. It is also interesting to note the motifs common to the story of Nommo with the story of Osiris (dismemberment and the erection of temples at the final resting places of their respective body parts). There are also numerous parallels between the story of Nommo and the traditions of Jesus: both were crucified, both instructed followers to 'drink of my body', and both were associated with the fish

In the 1970's a book by Robert Temple titled The Sirius Mystery popularized the traditions of the Dogon concerning Sirius and the Nommos. In The Sirius Mystery, Temple came to the conclusion that the Dogon's knowledge of astronomy and non-visible cosmic phenomenon could only be explained if said knowledge was imparted upon them by an extraterrestrial race that had visited the Dogon at some point in the past and given them information concerning the cosmos. Temple related this race to the legend of the Nommos and contended that the Nommos were extraterrestrial inhabitants of the Sirius star system who had traveled to earth at some point in the distant past and had imparted knowledge about the Sirius star system as well as our own solar system upon the Dogon tribes.

In Greek mythology, Phorcys, or Phorkys was one of the names of the "Old One of the Sea", the primeval sea god, who, according to Hesiod, was the son of Pontus and Gaia. According to the Orphic hymns Phorcys, Cronos and Rhea were the eldest offspring of Oceanus and Tethys (Kerenyi p 42). Other names for the Old Man are Nereus and Proteus (Kerenyi pp 42-43). His wife was Ceto and together they had many children, all hideous monsters (except for the Hesperides) collectively known as the Phorcydes. The Gorgons and Scylla were four of his beautiful children, but they were turned into monsters. In ancient mosaics he was depicted as a fish-tailed merman with crab-claw fore-legs and red.

Whales and dolphins etc are so much more intelligent than us, those still alive especially. Save our sea.


13-12-2011, 08:13 PM
Leo had such an intelligent take on the sea pointing out that the constituency of sea water was very similar to spinal fluid (Leo's other brain being the spine). He therefore viewed it as a giant brain. It is a link that is vital for the occult student. You cannot progress far if you ignore half of yourself. So that 'Sea' in the Temple, the Jonah and the whale stories and John's baptisms are reflected in all ancient cultures in some way. It is the water here that makes us special. The primeval mound, or ben ben was a volcano appearing out of the ocean like the Icelandic Island Surtr named for the god who survives Ragnarok after all the other gods destroy each other. A kind of repetitive pattern. You can have your own primordial moments with knees emerging in the bath, or can try to make that link in the sea itself if you dare. Because that is where the main server is, our central intelligence.

The well of Miriam, River Styx, the sacred springs, immersion ceremonies, even Enoch's fountain of knowledge all point to the importance of getting wet. Joshua was said to be the son of Nun, the old man of the sea in Egypt where he came from. This was why the story has the preposterous tale of the Red Sea dividing, the Nile flowing red, the frogs etc. Enoch actually wrote that God divided into two great beasts Leviathan who takes to the sea and Behemoth to the land. Atlantis is probably underwater. Anyway I would point out that the Gods need a boat and a bridge, mortals require a ferryman and the correct fare and the Ogdoad is all amphibian.

By the by that Ichthys wheel, if you looked it up, is supposed to be the Ogdoad round table not a wheel, sometimes also depicted as a circle quartered. If Antartica is melting then those magicians who can batter the UK with hurricanes and thunder snow must be able to reverse the global melt. If only the humans could put their minds to something constructive (like a whale school).

reve x

14-12-2011, 03:32 AM
There are now a couple of photos of it on my profile page. It is Greek marble about 4 inches square and half an inch thick. the fish and hooks are also found on the Roman Lapis Manalis. The other symbols may interest you. I will sleep with it tonight.

reve x

14-12-2011, 04:18 AM
Hello nafenisr
the Emin was a cult I used to be involved in in the 80's, international, esoteric, occult, with a lot of emphasis on ancient Egypt, Auras and the like. A bit of a social gathering yet gave me a lot of answers at the time about how the world worked. I understand the man that started it died a few years ago, I bet they still exist!

Not heard of them. Every time I see this thread, I read it as 'E minor', like a music chord lol.

14-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Armoured one you omit Ameen at the end of the blessing, why is that?

Barukh Attah Adonai Eloheinu Melekh ha-Olam,
Asher Natan Lanu et Derekh ha-Yeshua’
BaMashiach Yeshua, Barukh hu. Ameen

Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe
Who gave to us the way of Salvation
Through the Messiah Yeshua, blessed be He, Amen

This is really a prayer to Amen, blessing him for that Joshua, son of Nun. I am sure you can find Amen/Emin here if not your musical chord until you mentioned it. Shiloh, the meeting of the higher (Hierosalaam) and the lower is also here.

......and the golden sleep of Shalom

Fishnu x

14-12-2011, 02:23 PM
Armoured one you omit Ameen at the end of the blessing, why is that?

Barukh Attah Adonai Eloheinu Melekh ha-Olam,
Asher Natan Lanu et Derekh ha-Yeshua’
BaMashiach Yeshua, Barukh hu. Ameen

Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe
Who gave to us the way of Salvation
Through the Messiah Yeshua, blessed be He, Amen

This is really a prayer to Amen, blessing him for that Joshua, son of Nun. I am sure you can find Amen/Emin here if not your musical chord until you mentioned it. Shiloh, the meeting of the higher (Hierosalaam) and the lower is also here.

......and the golden sleep of Shalom

Fishnu x

I omit it because people read too much into the 'Amen' portion of the prayer. My intention may not be the intention of the originator of the prayer; just like magick, it's all about intent. :)

15-12-2011, 05:35 AM
Leo had such an intelligent take on the sea pointing out that the constituency of sea water was very similar to spinal fluid (Leo's other brain being the spine). He therefore viewed it as a giant brain. It is a link that is vital for the occult student. You cannot progress far if you ignore half of yourself. So that 'Sea' in the Temple, the Jonah and the whale stories and John's baptisms are reflected in all ancient cultures in some way. It is the water here that makes us special. The primeval mound, or ben ben was a volcano appearing out of the ocean like the Icelandic Island Surtr named for the god who survives Ragnarok after all the other gods destroy each other. A kind of repetitive pattern. You can have your own primordial moments with knees emerging in the bath, or can try to make that link in the sea itself if you dare. Because that is where the main server is, our central intelligence.

The well of Miriam, River Styx, the sacred springs, immersion ceremonies, even Enoch's fountain of knowledge all point to the importance of getting wet. Joshua was said to be the son of Nun, the old man of the sea in Egypt where he came from. This was why the story has the preposterous tale of the Red Sea dividing, the Nile flowing red, the frogs etc. Enoch actually wrote that God divided into two great beasts Leviathan who takes to the sea and Behemoth to the land. Atlantis is probably underwater. Anyway I would point out that the Gods need a boat and a bridge, mortals require a ferryman and the correct fare and the Ogdoad is all amphibian.

By the by that Ichthys wheel, if you looked it up, is supposed to be the Ogdoad round table not a wheel, sometimes also depicted as a circle quartered. If Antartica is melting then those magicians who can batter the UK with hurricanes and thunder snow must be able to reverse the global melt. If only the humans could put their minds to something constructive (like a whale school).

reve x
I'm Glaswegian and have heard this storey many times,it took place on Glasgow green which although. Ow has brackish water(semi tidal),didn't in those days as it wasn't dregged and made wider for ship building.in those days that part of the river would have been freshwater and flowing.
I also used to be a keen salmon fisherman although I'm now vegetarian and have forgotten more about a scottish salmon than most people ever learn.

The fact I am getting at is a salmon will not eat in fresh water,it will attack an object crossing its path but it will not swallow it so I have never given any credit to this fairy tale.

By the way I have read some of the posts on this thread and find some of it quite interesting,I'm not in to the idea of cults at all but never the less I still find some of it interesting and I do like to read about different aspects of the occult.
It would be nice to hear the views of some of the usual posters of occultism on this forum,come you know who you are,the usual occult,Crowley and magick posters,throw you 2pennys worth at his thread and let us hear your views,I find these posts quite entertaining,sometimes even fascenating.

15-12-2011, 05:46 AM
Sorry i meant to quote this part of the thread,ItsMany people, including Glaswegians themselves, are only vaguely aware of the stories and legends associated with the coat of arms. So here is the background to:

There's the tree that never grew,
There's the bird that never flew,
There's the fish that never swam,
There's the bell that never rang.
The Tree That Never Grew
The tree in the coat of arms is a now sturdy oak tree, but it started out as a branch of a hazel tree. The legend says that St Mungo was in charge of a holy fire in St Serf's Monastery and fell asleep. Some boys who were envious of his favoured position with St Serf put out the fire. But St Mungo broke off some frozen branches from a hazel tree and, by praying over them, caused them to burst into flames.
The Bird That Never Flew
This commemorates a wild robin which was tamed by St Serf and which was accidentally killed. St Mungo was blamed for the death but he is said to have taken the dead bird, prayed over it and it was restored to life.
The Fish That Never Swam

The coat of arms always shows the fish with a ring held in its mouth. This is because a King of Strathclyde had given his wife a ring as a present. But the Queen gave it to a knight who promptly lost it. Some versions of the story say that the King took the ring while the knight was asleep and threw it in the river. The King then demanded to see the ring - threatening death to the Queen if she could not do so. The knight confessed to St Mungo who sent a monk to catch a fish in the river Clyde. When this was brought back (presumably catching salmon in the Clyde in those days was a lot easier then!) St Mungo cut open the fish and found the ring. When the Bishop of Glasgow was designing his own seal around 1271, he used the illustration of a salmon with a ring in its mouth and this has come down to us in today's coat of arms.

The illustration here is of an ornate lamppost, incorporating all the symbols of the coat of arms. It is located near Glasgow Cathedral - founded nearly 1500 years ago by St Mungo. http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_flourish.htm not easy doing this stuff on a phone.

15-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Mona is short for ma donna (my lady in Italian). I have a grandmother so named but the most famous painting in the world is of course the enigmatic Mona Lisa.

Nostradamus was in university when leonardo died in France. He had still not finished the Miona Lisa, notr any of his paintings wehjich he regretted. Much has been written about it but whoever the sitter was there is more to it than her plucked eyebrows and lashes.

Behind her are winding paths, a bridge and icy m,ountains. Occult symbols. (Shansuke all serious occultists or those interested in the unseen worlds are considered cultish but hate cults!) He based the painting on a pyramid structure.

Leonardo's last commission was to make a lion that opened up its chest to reveal lilies (the occult aspodels, fleur de lys, funeral flowers etc.) for King Francis in whose arms he died.

Some twenty years after Leonardo's death, Francis was reported by the goldsmith and sculptor Benevenuto Cellini as saying: "There had never been another man born in the world who knew as much as Leonardo, not so much about painting, sculpture and architecture, as that he was a very great philosopher."

A very great ymn of course trying to tell us all something in his own sweet way. Leonardo had been here and seen helicopters and submarines. The big problem at the time was Plague which Nostradamus was also devoted to eradicating. Even though he is only really known for his prophecies.

The ring swallowed by the fish! A fish was worth 2 drachmas which probably paid the temple tax. Conjurors often produce rabbits out of hats, rings out of fish etc. i would think Mungo had another ring made to save the poor woman but maybe he had taken it.

Did you know that Glasgow cathedral was defended by its congregation at the time of the Reformation and is one of very few original Cathedrals left untouched by the grotesque damage done to them by mad men looting in the name of reform. Thank Mungo for that.

Mona Lisa is our great earth goddess needless to say. that is why she is so famous, the inner lives are drawn to her.

reve x

16-12-2011, 07:54 PM
Law of Manu

Today I was meditating on various matters when I was disturbed and thought (in my imagination obviously) that someone was being brought in to meet me. Swami Nandi (as near as I could get to his name) said all the right things, told me that he had for a long time wanted to meet me etc. I asked him why he didn’t pop over to Glasgow and Swami gently explained that he had died some time ago so that was out of the question. As with others that I like who have moved on he was invited to come and live in me.

But I like to double check my various imaginations and later was looking up the Law of Manu, called the ManuSmrti. This is not so much the law but what Brahma taught to Manu, who passed it on via inspiration so that it ended up enshrined in text, much now lost. The British translated it in the 1700’s but for various reasons disliked it. Annie Beasant and the Theosophical lot later brought it up again and there I found one of the Swami Nandi‘s.

‘Nandi’ is the friend and mount of Shiva and is a bull (astrological?). Or is it? I also found a more recent Swami Nandi who is an actual bull:

""THOUSANDS witnessed the Shankaracharyas, saints and leaders from various sects including Islam, giving a clarion call to ban cow slaughter in India by enactment of a law by the Parliament, on the concluding ceremony of 108-day Vishwa Mangal Gou Gram Yatra at the historic Reshim Bagh Grounds on the evening of January 17 (2010).

The concluding ceremony was marked by the vow administered by none other than the Shankaracharya of Gokarna Peeth Swami Raghaveshwar Bharati to the vast gathering to save cow which he described as very soul of Bharat.

A galaxy of saints, thinkers and scholars descended on Nagpur to address the function. They included Yoga Guru Baba Ramdev, Shankaracharya of Karveer Peeth Swami Vidya Nrisingh Bharati, Acharya Mahasabha president Swami Dayananda Saraswati, RSS Sarsanghachalak Shri Mohan Bhagwat, Jain Muni Pavitra Sagar Maharaj, VHP president Shri Ashok Singhal, Buddhist saint Bhante Janan Jagat, Bhadant Rahul Bodhi, Maulana Bashir Qadri of Chhattisgarh, Haji Taiyab Qureshi, Swami Sahdevdas of ISKCON, Rashtra Sevika Samiti’s Pramukh Sanchalika Pramilatai Medhe and famous thespian Suresh Oberoi.

Basappa Swami Nandi (a bull), Peethadhish of Sannakarai Mutt in Doddarasinkare village under Mandya district of Karnataka presided over the function. The Nandiswamy, who is said to have blessed with some divine powers, was the centre of attraction for the past couple of days at the exhibition that preceded the function. He was ceremoniously brought to the dais where he proceeded to the Shankaracharya Raghaveshwar Bharati and bowed to him with tearful eyes. The Acharya fondled him, wiped his tears and then only the Nandiswami occupied his seat at a corner of the dais where he stayed for nearly four and a half hours throughout the meeting. This was probably for the first time in the present history that a bull presided over a public meeting of such a grandeur and significance.

My sort of bull completely and definitely an ymn.

But the great proponent of the Manu Smrtri was a previous Swami who died in

He is definitely Ymn. This is wiki on him:

"Maharishi Dayanand Saraswati (Hindi:स्वामी दयानन्द सरस्वती, Gujarati: મહષિૅ દયાનંદ સરસ્વતી) (Born:12 February 1824 – Died:30 October 1883 ) was an important Hindu religious scholar, reformer, and founder of the Arya Samaj, a Hindu reform movement. He was the first to give the call for Swarajya – "India for Indians" – in 1876, later taken up by Lokmanya Tilak. Denouncing the idolatry and ritualistic worship prevalent in Hinduism at the time, he worked towards reviving Vedic ideologies. Subsequently the philosopher and President of India, S. Radhakrishnan, called him one of "makers of Modern India," as did Sri Aurobindo.

…A number of incidents in early childhood resulted in Dayananda's questioning the traditional beliefs of Hinduism and inquiring about God. While still a young child, when his family went to a temple for overnight worship on the night of Maha Shivratri, he stayed up waiting for Lord Shiva to appear to accept the offerings made to his idol. While his family slept, Dayananda saw a mouse eating the offerings. He was utterly surprised and wondered how a God who cannot protect even his own offerings would protect humanity. He argued with his father that they should not be worshipping such a helpless God.….Dayananda was disillusioned with classical Hinduism and became a wandering monk. He learned Panini's grammar to read Sanskrit texts, and understood from them that God can be found. After wandering in search of God for over two decades, he found Swami Virajananda near Mathura, Uttar Pradesh who became his guru. Swami Virajananda told him to throw away all his books, as he wished Dayananda to start from a clean slate and learn directly from the Vedas, the oldest and most foundational scriptures of Hinduism. Hindu priests discouraged the laity from reading Vedic scriptures and encouraged rituals, such as bathing in the Ganges River and feeding of priests on anniversaries, which Dayananda pronounced as superstitions or self-serving practices. By exhorting the nation to reject such superstitious notions, his aim was to educate the nation to Go back to the Vedas. While he wanted the people to follow the Vedic life, he also exhorted the nation to accept social reforms like the abolition of untouchability, sati, and dowry, education of women, swadeshi and importance of cows for national prosperity as well as the adoption of Hindi as the national language. Through his teachings, preachings, sermons and writings he inspired the nation to aspire to Swarajya (self governance), nationalism, and spiritualism. He advocated the equal rights and respects to women and advocated the full education of a girl child.
Swami Dayananda did critical, logical and scientific analyses of all faiths ie Islam and Christianity as well as of other Indian faiths like Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism, in addition to denouncing idolatry in Hinduism, as may be seen in his book Satyartha Prakash. He was against what he considered to be the corruption of the pure faith in his own country. Unlike many other reform movements within Hinduism, the Arya Samaj's appeal was addressed not only to the educated few in India, but to the world as a whole as evidenced in the sixth principle of the Arya Samaj.In fact his teachings professed universalism for the all living beings and not for any particular sect, faith, community or nation."

And another Wiki (peculiar!) The devotees believe that the Nandi idol in front of the temple is continuously increasing its size. The locals say that the idol was initially much smaller than its present size. They say that certain experimentation was carried out on this idol and it was said that the type of rock out of which the idol is carved has a growing or enlarging nature associated with it. As per Archaeological Survey of India the rock grows at the rate of 1 inch per 20 years (10 mm per 8 years).
It is said that people used to do Pradakshinas (rounds) around it in the past. The temple staff has already removed one pillar as the size of the Nandi has increased.
According to Potuluri Veera Brahmendra swamy, the Basavanna (stone nandi) of Yaganti will come alive and shout when Kali Yuga ends

This was the sort of thing I thought we could be relating here. More ‘occultish’ and rather childish attacks on me last night though I note, which is exactly the opposite. Please do not do this for your own sakes, it is quite unjustifiable. Write here if you don’t like me or what I do. I do worry we still live in a world that shoots first and asks its questions too late.

By the way I must re-iterate that dreams are often able to jump time and foretell the future. Most people have examples of this in their own lives then you have a deja vu don’t you? So do not assume that we cannot dream in the way I write because we all can.

Reve x

16-12-2011, 09:03 PM
Mona is short for ma donna (my lady in Italian). I have a grandmother so named but the most famous painting in the world is of course the enigmatic Mona Lisa.

Nostradamus was in university when leonardo died in France. He had still not finished the Miona Lisa, notr any of his paintings wehjich he regretted. Much has been written about it but whoever the sitter was there is more to it than her plucked eyebrows and lashes.

Behind her are winding paths, a bridge and icy m,ountains. Occult symbols. (Shansuke all serious occultists or those interested in the unseen worlds are considered cultish but hate cults!) He based the painting on a pyramid structure.

Leonardo's last commission was to make a lion that opened up its chest to reveal lilies (the occult aspodels, fleur de lys, funeral flowers etc.) for King Francis in whose arms he died.

Some twenty years after Leonardo's death, Francis was reported by the goldsmith and sculptor Benevenuto Cellini as saying: "There had never been another man born in the world who knew as much as Leonardo, not so much about painting, sculpture and architecture, as that he was a very great philosopher."

A very great ymn of course trying to tell us all something in his own sweet way. Leonardo had been here and seen helicopters and submarines. The big problem at the time was Plague which Nostradamus was also devoted to eradicating. Even though he is only really known for his prophecies.

The ring swallowed by the fish! A fish was worth 2 drachmas which probably paid the temple tax. Conjurors often produce rabbits out of hats, rings out of fish etc. i would think Mungo had another ring made to save the poor woman but maybe he had taken it.

Did you know that Glasgow cathedral was defended by its congregation at the time of the Reformation and is one of very few original Cathedrals left untouched by the grotesque damage done to them by mad men looting in the name of reform. Thank Mungo for that.

Mona Lisa is our great earth goddess needless to say. that is why she is so famous, the inner lives are drawn to her.

reve x

Hi reve, hope you are well. There are a couple of Leonardo threads on this site. On one of them I posted this mirror image of Mona that shows the golden challice:
which looks much better done with a real mirror on a real print.

17-12-2011, 09:05 PM
How interesting. I can see her third eye on that too. i think it is strange that Leo(nardo) did not give/sell the painting to the family as would be normal in those days. He took it with him to France to die and France now owns it so it hangs in the Louvre.

it is not a particularly pretty picture is it. Does it represent someone alive now perhaps? Or is it to do with Homer? Who is the most beautiful goddess? Paris chooses her and war is declared with Troy.

He was very unusual, long haired when men wore their hair short. His painting of John the Baptist is of a long haired young man which looks nothing like the usual portrayals. Perhaps he is another lookalike. I am no expert and have not l;ooked at the other threads yet but wiki points out his Ymn:

Some of Leonardo's philosophies can be found in a series of fables that he wrote. A prevalent theme is the mistake of placing too high esteem upon one's self, and the benefits to be gained through awareness, humility and endeavour....
Leonardo's love of animals has been documented both in contemporary accounts as recorded in early biographies, and in his Notebooks. Remarkably for the period, he even questioned the morality of eating animals when it was not necessary for health, and consequently became a vegetarian.

Edward MacCurdy (one of the two translators and compilers of Leonardo's Notebooks into English) wrote:

…The mere idea of permitting the existence of unnecessary suffering, still more that of taking life, was abhorrent to him. Vasari tells, as an instance of his love of animals, how when in Florence he passed places where birds were sold he would frequently take them from their cages with his own hand, and having paid the sellers the price that was asked would let them fly away in the air, thus giving them back their liberty.

That this horror of inflicting pain was such as to lead him to be a vegetarian is to be inferred from a reference which occurs in a letter sent by Andrea Corsali to Giuliano di Lorenzo de' Medici, in which, after telling him of an Indian race called Gujerats who neither eat anything that contains blood nor permit any injury to any living creature, he adds ‘like our Leonardo da Vinci.

Leonardo wrote the following in his Notebooks, which were not deciphered and made available for reading until the 19th century:

If you are as you have described yourself the king of the animals — it would be better for you to call yourself king of the beasts since you are the greatest of them all! — why do you not help them so that they may presently be able to give you their young in order to gratify your palate, for the sake of which you have tried to make yourself a tomb for all the animals? Even more I might say if to speak the entire truth were permitted me.

He referred to war as pazzia bestialissima, the most bestial madness.

And thou, man, who by these labours dost look upon the marvelous works of nature, if thou judgest it to be an atrocious act to destroy the same, reflect that it is an infinitely atrocious act to take away the life of man.


A bit of a sanyasin on the side then.

reve x

18-12-2011, 09:44 PM
I do not possess Frownstrong,The Sayings of Leo, The Power of the Mind (The Way A-Head) etc. anymore unfortunately. I seem to remember from Gemrod that there was a young woman and the wizard broke her bottle of disinfectant on a rock (which worried me ecologically at the time) and instructed her to clean more effectively by abrasion. I only mention this as an extract if you like and example. In those days baths were cleaned with Vim or Ajax powder, pots and pans with brillow pads and wire wool and elbow grease. These days the baths and pans do not like it, and bacteria and viruses can survive abrasion, in fact hitch a ride on it. We could say the high temperature of a dishwasher, heat does the job best nowadays. And this is true of teaching and learning. It is also true of telling young children off. They get upset very easily today and grandparents are puzzled because they can remember Granny giving them 10 pence at Christmas once, when they wore their smartest Sunday best clothes, took a telling off or two from her, then wrote to say thanks.

Times change and revert constantly and teaching needs to take account of that. Today’s Emins are very sensitive which is excellent, they should be able to sense more. But one thing remains constant. If you want to progress spiritually..It is the equation of life or the karmic scale. One of Leo’s lessons was that if you were given something, you could have it taken away. It is very true. If you earn something it has a different weight on the scales.

The Egyptian premise that a beggar in the one world is a king in another is interesting. It brings to mind Leonardo Da Vinci’s curious request that 60 beggars in Paris should follow his coffin. Perhaps the parable that getting into heaven is more difficulty for a rich man than it was for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle, which was the person gateway rather than the commercial gate. A camel would need to shed it’s load and crawl. We must not be or die rich. It is the clearest lesson in every spiritual way. Unfortunately these days that lesson hurts more than it did. This is how the karmic scale operates negatively, ie actions you fail to take count against you. Having more than your fair share is an example unless you are like Baba who literally gave billions away to the poor and ill.

Some dietary requirement is normal in religions, even to the extent of demanding an animal be bled to death and die in terror and agony, upside down. But the most ancient of any law is not to eat from the tree of life. A step too far for 90% of the population. It counts against you on the scale if you demand an animal suffer to end up on your plate. So a quick visit to our local abattoir might help us calculate what we owe these creatures, and what they owed us. Watching a fish die in a net to end up with our chips will help calculate the same equation. Are you offering them the chance to swap lives with you to balance things out? Did they have families? How do they feel about it? Running away from this sort of question holds you back but one cannot instruct someone in this, it comes from within.

Are we helping the old and vulnerable and poor in our community. I do not speak of those across the globe or in a different time, but those living within our immediate world. Do we offer to do shopping for the frail, cleaning for the bedridden in our street? Do we offer meals to the hungry? This is a good way to balance the scales but very unpopular. Even if you do it with anger in your heart, karma is in the action not the intention. Giving money to charity is not a genuine action. It just avoids the negative aspect of holding on to it. Working for a bank, or tobacco company, does not do it either but the paramedic does. It is hard to accept as both employees work hard. But one is an unhealthy action.

Leo taught some of this but did not in fact subscribe to all of it or practise it all. However what he started did a huge amount of good work which is credited to his scale. This does not work for the students he inspired, or the teachers he spawned and there is a good reason for that.

Can you see what I am getting at? Can some senior Emins enter a discussion on balancing/compensating some unfortunate people in our own little community. People who perhaps did not have such happy memories. That is where Leo has the onerous responsibility and why he gets credit for the good things. It is the cost of having a religion or cult grow around you. Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha, whoever they are, are in a similar position and struggle to balance things. These people are higher up that ‘ray of creation’ if you like, they are a galaxy to our individual stars. And they in turn make up another galaxy or universe which I call here the Ymn. But if you want to join it and are not starting your own wonderful world saving cult you have to get your head around the above, which is the way of the karmic yogi, ‘sanyasin’ or the ascetic. Or you need to be an untouchable. A martyr is supposed to be a person who suffers for others, not one who kills them. It is another way. Self sacrifice and heroism may do it. But these are very difficult to achieve without fate. And that is another lesson another time.

reve x

19-12-2011, 09:24 AM
Most of you will never have heard of this great Ymn. I only found out when faced with families in extreme poverty and no help available anywhere (the government is getting very mean with help these days as are Social Services). But I could write to a small organisation and they would send a cooker, fridge money for clothes etc.

Frank Buttle (19 October 1878–1953) the founder of Buttle UK, was a man of great vision and determination and a very colourful character.

William Francis Buttle – always "Frank" to his family – was born in Brixton on 19 October 1878. Soon after Frank’s birth, the family moved to Woldingham, near Croydon, and Frank was educated at Whitgift Grammar School.

Having first trained as a solicitor, his real ambition was to become a clergyman, and he went first to the University of Durham and then to Downing College, Cambridge. He was ordained in 1906 and was vicar of St Chad’s, Haggerston, in the London Borough of Hackney, from 1937 to 1953, when he died.

In December 1950, the Sunday Dispatch wrote of him: "People who do not know the Reverend William Francis Buttle feel sorry for him as he trundles his ancient bicycle through London’s East End or shuffles along the grey streets in shoes several sizes too big for him and clothes from which the linings hang in ribbons.

They do not know that he has amassed a fortune of £700,000, that he dreams of making a million, and that he will never touch a penny of it for himself. Canon Buttle, at 72, is the Church of England’s most fantastic Parson – solicitor, real estate operator and shrewd share speculator – a legendary figure who some call a saint, and some a miser. In 30 years he has built up two fabulous trusts which he claims will one day educate, maintain and send out to life 1,000 children a year who are either illegitimate or from broken homes."

Frank Buttle was perhaps the first person to challenge the abuses of baby farming – the taking in of infants to nurse for payment – and to offer the very practical alternative of adoption. wiki

They help many more than he imagined and will continue to do so indefinitely. If only the Emin could learn from this great teacher. People do not even try to become saints but all have it in their power. Some have it even more in their power but are self obsessed.

I note 'someone' has voted this thread downwards and we have lost our 3 star rating. Another attack from a team calling themselves Emins last night, I was saved by my cat awakening me. Do you really want to be the opposite of the Buttle Trust? Leo wishes you were nowhere near his Emin may I say.

reve x

19-12-2011, 12:51 PM
The one with an overactive imagination finds all his heating going down since that last post. I think we should blame the Power of the Mind series for that but freezing weather has contributed to, or resulted from it.

Fate, destiny, preordination, seem to cause theologians a logical problem. Those who still cannot answer whether the egg came first, wonder how everything can be written when it is yet to happen. Short circuits do occur with time and that is all this is. If you did try talking to yourself at the end of your life you will understand. If you are now talking to yourself when you were a youngster you are somewhat constrained you will find (by the fact that you were not listening then).

In a recent vivid dream I told a man my name and he came up to me later and told me I was an accountant and he had just seen it in 'the book'. He looked like me a bit. I would know of course. What is in your book? If you are wise you are writing it and performing the correct actions to fulfill it, which I call mumming your development.

How many reading today tell themselves they are the chosen one day after day but do little to fulfill the premise? Later in life you will find it is/was you who did the choosing. The term is often translated as the 'elect' one. It could just as well be the 'one in the book'. Which could be anyone of either gender. You are that one in your own little universe of course, but is it a nice place to live for everyone else?

Leo cries out for justification, why can you not hear him?

reve x

20-12-2011, 10:33 AM
Few will know the story but Montacute is a village in Somerset with a steep hill, a bit like Glastonbury Tor. On the top was found an enormous black flint cross which ended up as 'Waltham Cross' at Waltham Abbey north of London. After Henry V111 ransacked the abbey, this cross vanished. It is connected to the Black Rood of Scotland ( a piece of the Calvary Cross, also black).

wiki: Variously called Logaresburgh by the Saxons,later Bishoptone or Biscepstone the estate was owned by a Dane called Tofig; who is said to have been Harold Godwinson's royal standard-bearer. Montacute is reputed to have been named by Robert, Count of Mortain, who built the motte-and-bailey Montacute Castle as his English seat in 1068 and founded the Cluniac priory. The site of the castle was a deliberate affront to the defeated English because a black flint cross (the "Holy Rood") was said to have been discovered atop the hill earlier in the eleventh century by the village blacksmith. This was supposedly placed in a wagon by Tofig, and he named a series of possible destinations owned by him. The oxen pulling the wagon (six red and six white in one version of the tale) refused to move until he said "Waltham". They then started, and continued non-stop until they reached Waltham. When they stopped, Tofig decided to build an abbey at the site – this became Waltham Abbey. This relic had become an object of veneration, pilgrimage and celebration. "Holy Cross" was the battle-cry of Harold's armies at the battles of Stamford Bridge and Hastings. The Holy Rood is said to have foretold Harold's defeat at Hastings: on the way there from the Battle of Stamford Bridge he stopped off at Waltham Abbey to pray, and the legend is that the cross "bowed down" off the wall as he did so. This was taken as a portent of doom.

It is one of those lapis manalis, gateway to the underworld and worth noting that Montacute's nearby twin, Glastonbury Tor is also reputed to be, especially to those who sleep there on Midsummer's night.

Where is the cross? I would also note that the blue stones of Wales were quite likely transported on sledges pulled by oxen. people do not seem to know how they got to Stonehenge and at last they are identifying the actual outcrops from which the stones and chippings (dream pillows) derive.

St Dunstan is tghe answer to some of this if you know him. He in fact founded Westminster Abbey a hundred years before Edward the Confessor founded it. Dunstan was a goldsmith, hermit/ascetic and magician.

Dunstan (909 – 19 May 988) was an Abbot of Glastonbury Abbey, a Bishop of Worcester, a Bishop of London, and an Archbishop of Canterbury, later canonised as a saint. His work restored monastic life in England and reformed the English Church. His 11th-century biographer, Osbern, himself an artist and scribe, states that Dunstan was skilled in "making a picture and forming letters", as were other clergy of his age who reached senior rank.

Dunstan served as an important minister of state to several English kings. He was the most popular saint in England for nearly two centuries, having gained fame for the many stories of his greatness, not least among which were those concerning his famed cunning in defeating the Devil....Dunstan was born in Baltonsborough. He was the son of Heorstan, a noble of Wessex. Heorstan was the brother of the bishops of Wells and of Winchester. It is recorded that his mother, Cynethryth, was a pious woman. Osbern's life of Dunstan relates that a messenger miraculously told her of the saintly child she would give birth to:

She was in the church of St Mary on Candleday, when all the lights were suddenly extinguished. Then the candle held by Cynethryth was as suddenly relighted, and all present lit their candles at this miraculous flame, thus foreshadowing that the boy "would be the minister of eternal light" to the Church of England.
The anonymous author of the earliest Life places Dunstan's birth during the reign of Athelstan, while Osbern fixed it at "the first year of the reign of King Æthelstan", 924 or 925. (Reve: Michael eavis who has held the Glastonbury festivals on his farm has the first name Athelstan)...As a young boy, Dunstan studied under the Irish monks who then occupied the ruins of Glastonbury Abbey. Accounts tell of his youthful optimism and of his vision of the abbey being restored. While still a boy, Dunstan was stricken with a near-fatal illness and effected a seemingly miraculous recovery. Even as a child, he was noted for his devotion to learning and for his mastery of many kinds of artistic craftsmanship. With his parent's consent he was tonsured, received minor orders and served in the ancient church of St Mary. He became so well known for his devotion to learning that he is said to have been summoned by his uncle Athelm, the Archbishop of Canterbury, to enter his service. He was later appointed to the court of King Athelstan. (Reve: You will find St Mary churches at the root of many mysteries, saints etc)...Dunstan soon became a favourite of the king and was the envy of other members of the court. A plot was hatched to disgrace him and Dunstan was accused of being involved with witchcraft and black magic. The king ordered him to leave the court and as Dunstan was leaving the palace his enemies physically attacked him, beat him severely, bound him, and threw him into a cesspool. He managed to crawl out and make his way to the house of a friend. From there, he journeyed to Winchester and entered the service of his uncle, Ælfheah, Bishop of Winchester.

The bishop tried to persuade him to become a monk, but Dunstan was doubtful whether he had a vocation to a celibate life. The answer came in the form of an attack of swelling tumours all over Dunstan's body. This ailment was so severe that it was thought to be leprosy. It was more probably some form of blood poisoning caused by being beaten and thrown in the cesspool. Whatever the cause, it changed Dunstan's mind. He took Holy Orders in 943, in the presence of Ælfheah, and returned to live the life of a hermit at Glastonbury. Against the old church of St Mary he built a small cell five feet long and two and a half feet deep. It was there that Dunstan studied, worked at his handicrafts, and played on his harp. It is at this time, according to a late 11th-century legend, that the Devil is said to have tempted Dunstan and to have been held by the face with Dunstan's tongs...Dunstan worked as a silversmith and in the scriptorium while he was living at Glastonbury. It is thought likely that he was the artist who drew the well-known image of Christ with a small kneeling monk beside him in the Glastonbury Classbook, "one of the first of a series of outline drawings which were to become a special feature of Anglo-Saxon art of this period." Dunstan became famous as a musician, illuminator, and metalworker. Lady Æthelflaed, King Æthelstan's niece, made Dunstan a trusted adviser and on her death she left a considerable fortune to him. He used this money later in life to foster and encourage a monastic revival in England. About the same time, his father Heorstan died and Dunstan inherited his fortune as well. He became a person of great influence, and on the death of King Æthelstan in 940, the new King, Edmund, summoned him to his court at Cheddar and made him a minister.

Again, royal favour fostered jealousy among other courtiers and again Dunstan's enemies succeeded in their plots. The king was prepared to send Dunstan away.There were then at Cheddar certain envoys from the "Eastern Kingdom", which probably meant East Anglia. Dunstan implored the envoys to take him with them when they returned to their homes. They agreed to do so, but it never happened.
... the king rode out to hunt the stag in Mendip Forest. He became separated from his attendants and followed a stag at great speed in the direction of the Cheddar cliffs. The stag rushed blindly over the precipice and was followed by the hounds. Eadmund endeavoured vainly to stop his horse; then, seeing death to be imminent, he remembered his harsh treatment of St Dunstan and promised to make amends if his life was spared. At that moment his horse was stopped on the very edge of the cliff. Giving thanks to God, he returned forthwith to his palace, called for St. Dunstan and bade him follow, then rode straight to Glastonbury. Entering the church, the king first knelt in prayer before the altar, then, taking St. Dunstan by the hand, he gave him the kiss of peace, led him to the abbot's throne and, seating him thereon, promised him all assistance in restoring Divine worship and regular observance....Dunstan, now Abbot of Glastonbury, went to work at once on the task of reform. He had to re-create monastic life and to rebuild the abbey. He began by establishing Benedictine monasticism at Glastonbury....Dunstan went to Rome in 960, and received the pallium from Pope John XII. On his journey there, Dunstan's charities were so lavish as to leave nothing for himself and his attendants. His steward complained, but Dunstan seems to have suggested that they trust in Jesus Christ.

On his return from Rome, Dunstan at once regained his position as virtual prime minister of the kingdom... Dunstan pushed forward his reforms in the English Church. The monks in his communities were taught to live in a spirit of self-sacrifice, and Dunstan actively enforced the law of celibacy whenever possible. He forbade the practices of simony (selling ecclesiastical offices for money) and ended the custom of clerics appointing relatives to offices under their jurisdiction. Monasteries were built, and in some of the great cathedrals, monks took the place of the secular canons; in the rest the canons were obliged to live according to rule. The parish priests were compelled to be qualified for their office; they were urged to teach parishioners not only the truths of the Christian faith, but also trades to improve their position...On the vigil of Ascension Day 988, it is recorded that a vision of angels warned he would die in three days.

Glkastonbury had the first ever Christian Church said tio be founded by Joseph of Arimathea. Jesus is said to have come there, even be buried there. King Arthur has also been reputed to be buried there, or still alive under the Tor in the deep sleep (of Shalom). John Dee and Edward Talbot (Kelley) claimed to find the tincture in a grave there that turned lead to gold. There is the magical Christmas flowering bush there grown from Joseph's staff, The Chalice well etc and now it is home to many searchers and monks.

Monasticism is centred there also. Michael Eavis still holds concerts in the ruined Abbey which the musical dunstan would love.

Note Dunstan made bells. Leo said Church bells were invented to disrupt 'inter-planetary' slavers. But at that time the 'slavers' were ships from North Africa who took over 1 million men and women from the British and French coastal settlements into slavery and the genes of the North Africans (Moors). Many blue eyed blondes are still found there. The bells were to warn them when the ships were spotted, and also to call to prayer.

I hope this is of interesty to some.

How about trying to talk to yourself at the end of a month to see if you can do it? Just be receptive to your own voice, then in a month's time make a date to chat back to yourself. This time loop is vital. You can 'mum' back in time, and peep forward. But it needs to be tested. If you have regular meditation time for this you can use that later in life to transmit back to yourself. History is full of such prophetic work and it is Ymn work to embroider our creation intelligently from a central point.

No attacks last night, heating back on mysteriously. Well done! We can all get on you know but it is difficuklt in that dark hour to see how.

reve x

20-12-2011, 03:05 PM
black crosses again x

[edit] Black Rood of ScotlandSaint Margaret (c.1045–1093), a Saxon Princess of England, was born in Hungary. Following the conquest of England by the Normans in 1066, she fled to Scotland, where she married Malcolm III Canmore, King of Scotland. She is said to have brought the "Holy Rood", a fragment of Christ's cross, from Hungary to Scotland with her. It was known as the Black Rood of Scotland, likely for the black case in which it was kept. This relic was removed from Scotland by Edward I of England in 1296, along with the Stone of Scone and other treasures, but the Black Rood was returned in 1328. It was lost to the English again following the battle of Neville's Cross, after which it was held in Durham Cathedral until the Reformation of 1540, when it was presumably destroyed.

A fragment of the Holy Rood was brought to a Cistercian Abbey in Thurles, County Tipperary, Ireland by Isabella of Angoulême, widow of King John of England, and thenceforth the Abbey was called Holy Cross Abbey. The relic was lost following the Cromwellian war in Ireland.

The term is also applied to the black flint cross formerly held at Waltham Abbey in Essex, England. The Holy Rood or Cross was the subject of veneration and pilgrimage in the middle ages, but disappeared when the Abbey was dissolved in 1540.....

Reve: lot of crosses go 'missing' around this time...

The Black Cross is has been the symbol of the Teutonic Order from the 12th century to present.[1] It is the predecessor to the Iron Cross that originated in 1219 when the Kingdom of Jerusalem granted the Teutonic Order the right to combine the Teutonic Black Cross placed above a silver Cross of Jerusalem.

I cannot find anything online today but the black cross is also associated with Luther, an Anarchist group and an occult mystery.

Does anyone else here remember being in the 'cage' with Leo?

+ x (physical/solar according to Leo who said that thoses church bells were invented by King Arthur. This may be true but more ancient bells can be found in the Far East. England also had beacons. Living on coast lines was good for eating but insecure. Our Elizabethan navy grew out of the baron's small (trading) fleets defending Wales and Cornwall from Moor pirates for example, but 100 years later they were slaving the African continent themselves)


20-12-2011, 03:32 PM
The Mayans see the crosses slightly differently to Leo but both are everywhere (& their green cross as the cross is also the 'tree' on both continents)

The Solar Lord as the Sacred Tree holds two crosses in his hands. The cross in his right hand is held erect. The cross in his left hand is held slanted. When both crosses in these positions are superimposed an 8 pointed cross is formed. These crosses symbolize the fact that during a Great Celestial Conjunction the two crosses of the 8 pointed cross overlap such that they become one and form a four pointed cross. This is achieved by rotation of the Earth Cross (zodiac cross) against the backdrop of the Galactic Cross.

so when is this great conjunction

The zodiac cross rotates during the precession of the equinoxes against the backdrop of the Galactic Cross with one revolution in 26.000 years (length of a Great Year or Platonic Year). The Galactic Cross rotates with one revolution in 220 million years (time of the revolution of the Solar System around the Galactic Centre). That’s why the Galactic Cross is regarded as a fixated cross during a precession cycle, its rotation can be neglected.

The two crosses (Zodiac Cross and Galactic Cross) form an eight pointed cross and four times during a precession cycle they overlap. The moments of conjunction are called a Great Celestial Conjunction (for details see our paper ‘Crucifying the Earth on the Galactic Cross’ - Smeykavov, Wicherink 2006). It’s the cosmic event that is associated with John Major Jenkins Galactic Alignment. The next one is occurring right now during era-2012 on the winter and summer solstices.

ie next year.

Ahau means Solar Lord (One Hunaphu), Cumku means dark.

The start and end date of the Long Count Calendar are connected since they both start and end on 4 Ahau. It’s a great mystery why the Long Count starts on August 11th 3114 BC (GMT correlation). What was so special about this date? Maybe they selected the start date of the calendar such that it would link with the end date of the 13 baktuns cycle and in addition symbolically encoded the Great Celestial Conjunction that would occur at the end of the calendar? Remember that the Kin signs that are incorporated in the Long Count suggest a reference to a Great Celestial Conjunction. (Kin means Sun-Day and the two crosses form an 8 pointed cross).

If the start and enIn the picture above the Gods are depicted on their way to the next place of creation (three stones and turtle) on the night of August 11th. On board are the peddlers, the Maize God (representing the Sun) along with the zodiac signs that represent the nexus of the Maya Sacred Tree. These animals correspond with Scorpio-Sagittarius and Gemini-Taurus.

The Maya creation myth is speaking of the travelling of the Sun on the solstices and equinoxes during a precession cycle!

The journey of the Maize God started on the first place of creation, at the crossing of the ecliptic and the Milky Way, half a precession cycle ago around 10.500 BC when the Sun aligned with the Scorpio-Sagittarius nexus on the summer solstice. The Sun will arrive in era-2012 at the next place of creation. It’s the Sacred Tree nexus Gemini-Taurus where the Sun will align during the summer solstice (three stones and turtle). At the same time the Sun will align at the winter solstice at the Scorpio-Sagittarius nexus. It’s the time of a New Age, the rebirth of the Maya Sun God
d date are connected by means of the 4 Ahau date, it may well be that the start and end date were also ‘symbolically’ linked intentionally!

... http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/great%20celestial%20conjunction%20crosses.html

reve +

21-12-2011, 09:44 AM
I wrote too soon as last night it was another full occult attack testing my flying skills and patience to their limit.

The Monasteries were the equivalent of the Emin in their day and were nothing like their exterior image. But I am going back to stones.

In England not far from London we have the most marvellous example. In fact in London we have the London stone, tucked away in the City and quite ignored. That particular stone has shrunk dramatically over time. But Leo liked to mention the big round stones which he said were 32 feet in diameter and got hot when drilled. A big stone, but not 32 feet wide, is the king's stone, or Roy Stone and is in the middle of the village/town of Royston between London and Cambridge (& on the Dragon line)

Under the stone was an ancient chamber or Mundus, entrance to the underworld but a very special one and well worth a sensing visit. They moved the stone because of the traffic which is a shame as it is a cap stone, even a key stone. But the cave in the Roman style beehive shape is sgtill there:

Royston Cave is unique in Europe. Believed to date from the 14th Century, it is a man-made cavern in the shape of a beehive, with a small aperture at the top for ventilation. It's most remarkable feature is an extensive range of wall carvings representing the Crucifixion, the Holy Family and several saints, among them St Katherine, St Laurence and St Christopher. Other carvings are less easily identified and some have been interpreted as possible pagan symbols.

The carvings are medieval in appearance and some studies of the Cave have drawn comparisons from the wall carvings and other sources to indicate that it may have been used by the Knights Templar. Other studies point to the existence of Masonic symbols within the Cave that could link the Cave to James I who was himself a Freemason and who maintained a hunting lodge at Royston. Others believe the Cave is a spiritual centre where two significant ley-lines cross whilst other studies indicate that the Cave may simply have been a hermitage or a prison or oubliette.

What is certain though is that there is very little hard evidence to support the various theories as no records exist as to its use or purpose and dating is very difficult for a number of reasons including the lack of organic material and contamination since the Cave was re-discovered.

The Cave is a mystery and a visit to see for yourself and make up your own mind is a must. http://www.roystoncave.co.uk/

The London Stone:

The Stone sometimes called the Stone of Brutus, referring to legendary Trojan founder of London in around 1,000 BC. Popular legends include the stone being the remains of an ancient stone circle that is alleged to have stood on Ludgate Hill and even the stone from which King Arthur withdrew the legendary "Sword in the Stone".

The earliest written reference to the London Stone is in a book belonging to Æthelstan, King of the West Saxons in the early 10th century. In the list of lands and rents of Christ Church, Canterbury, some places are said to be "near unto London stone". It was already a landmark in 1198 when it was referred to on maps as Lonenstane or Londenstane. The first mayor of London was Henry Fitz-Ailwin de Londonestone (meaning 'Henry, son of Ailwin of London Stone'), who served the city some time between 1189 and 1193, and was described as "the draper of London Stone".

The London Stone was for many hundreds of years recognised as the symbolic authority and heart of the City of London. It was the place where deals were forged and oaths were sworn. It was also the point from which official proclamations were made. Jack Cade, popular leader of those who rebelled against Henry VI in 1450, observed the tradition by striking his sword against it as a symbol of sovereignty after his forces entered London; on striking the stone, he then felt emboldened to declare himself "Lord of the City". This event was dramatised in William Shakespeare's Henry VI, Part 2 (Act 4, Scene 6).

The Stone was originally situated in the middle of Cannon Street and was much larger than it is now. It is shown on the 1550s copperplate map of London, as a large block of stone in Candlewick Street (now Cannon Street) outside St Swithin's Church. The church was destroyed in the Great Fire of London in 1666, and rebuilt by Christopher Wren, who encased the old stone in a larger protective carved stone. By 1742, the stone had become an obstruction to traffic, and was moved from the south side of Cannon Street to the north side. For similar reasons, it was moved again in 1798, and by 1828 was set into the south wall of St Swithin's Church, on the north side of Cannon Street. The church was bombed during the Second World War, but the Stone was left unscathed.

The stone was moved and put on display opposite Cannon Street station in 1962, although rather inconspicuously situated. The stone and box, with iron grille, were designated a Grade II* listed structure on 5 June 1972. There is also a pub nearby called "The London Stone". A decorative grille to protect the stone was provided by the London and Middlesex Archaeological Society in 1869, but it is not clear whether the current grille is the original, a modified or replica version, or a new version from 1962. There are current proposals to move the stone further down Cannon Street to allow the building into which it is built to be redeveloped.

Like the Ravens of the Tower of London, there is a myth that states the Stone's safety is linked to that of the city itself; "So long as the stone of Brutus is safe, so long shall London flourish". This relates to the myth that the stone was part of an altar built by Brutus of Troy, the legendary founder of London. wiki

Both stones are 'erratics' in other words not composed of local stone and sometimes such stones are deposited by the Ice Age Glaciation. But sometimes they are carried there is a procession. The Stone of Scone on which our monarchs are crowned is tiny by comparison but also has legends attached to it to ensure only the correct monarch is crowned. It was stolen in the last century and may not be the original stone now but was returned to Scotland's (if not to Ireland)

The Stone of Scone ( /ˈskuːn/; Scottish Gaelic: An Lia Fàil), also known as the Stone of Destiny and often referred to in England as The Coronation Stone, is an oblong block of red sandstone, used for centuries in the coronation of the monarchs of Scotland and later the monarchs of England, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Historically, the artifact was kept at the now-ruined Scone Abbey in Scone, near Perth, Scotland. Other names by which it has sometimes been known include Jacob's Pillow Stone and the Tanist Stone, and in Scottish Gaelic clach-na-cinneamhain. Its size is about 26 inches (660 mm) by 16.75 inches (425 mm) by 10.5 inches (270 mm) and its weight is approximately 336 pounds (152 kg). The top bears chisel-marks[citation needed]. At each end of the stone is an iron ring, apparently intended to make transport easier....Various theories and legends exist about the stone's history prior to its residence at Scone:

Legends hold that this stone was the coronation stone of the early Dál Riata Gaels, which they brought with them from Ireland when settling Scotland.[citation needed]
The more historically supported story is of Fergus, son of Ferchard. As the first King of the Scots in Scotland, he is recorded to have brought the stone (and some claim the coronation chair as well, though this is unlikely) from Ireland to Argyll, and was crowned in it.[citation needed]
In either case, these legends present a transport from Ireland and connection to the stone Lia Fáil, the coronation stone of the kings of Tara. As referenced above, the Scottish Gaelic, clach-na-cinneamhain, clach Sgàin, and Lia(th) Fàil lends strong etymological support.
Legends place the origins in Biblical times and consider the stone to be the Stone of Jacob taken by Jacob while in Haran.
According to Hector Boece, the Stone was first kept in the west of Scotland at the lost city of Evonium. Founded by Evenus, or Ewin, Evonium and its founder have been tentatively identified as Irvine, Ayrshire, a medieval power centre on the west coast of Scotland, and with Dunstaffnage, in Argyll.
The stone taken by Edward I of England to Westminster has been proven by geologists to be a "lower Old Red Sandstone" quarried in the vicinity of Scone. This account has, of course, limited its history to that land. While many have differed on the specific Scottish-Pictish origin of the Old Red Sandstone of which the artifact is comprised, the Irish geological origin has been precluded.

However, the Stratigraphy of stone's makeup, particularly the quantity and type of fossil particulates and silicates, diminish a precise match to Old Red Sandstone. That the composite could have origins outside of the British Isles, though contextually dismissed, should be considered.

Doubts as to the present stone's authenticity have however existed for a long time now. One example can be cited to show that they date back at least a couple of hundred years.

A letter to the editor of the Morning Chronicle of 2 January, 1819 states that "On the 19th of November, as the servants belonging to the West Mains of Dunsinane-house, were employed in carrying away stones from the excavation made among the ruins that point out the site of Macbeth's castle here, part of the ground they stood on suddenly gave way, and sunk down about six feet, discovering a regularly built vault, about six feet long and four wide. None of the men being injured, curiosity induced them to clear out the subterranean recess, when they discovered among the ruins a large stone, weighing about 500l. which is pronounced to be of the meteoric or semi-metallic kind. This stone must have lain here during the long series of ages since Macbeth’s reign. Besides it were also found two round tablets, of a composition resembling bronze. On one of these two lines are engraved, which a gentleman has thus deciphered.—’ The sconce (or shadow) of kingdom come, until Sylphs in air carry me again to Bethel.’ These plates exhibit the figures of targets for the arms. From time immemorial it has been believed among us here, that unseen hands brought Jacob’s pillow from Bethel, and dropped it on the site where the palace of Scoon now stands. A strong belief is also entertained by many in this part of the country, that it was only a representation of this Jacob’s pillow that Edward sent to Westminster, the sacred stone not having been found by him. The curious here, aware of such traditions, and who have viewed these venerable remains of antiquity, agree that Macbeth may, or rather must, have deposited the stone in question at the bottom of his Castle, on the hill of Dunsinane (from the trouble of the times), where it has been found by the workmen.

This curious stone has been shipped for London for the inspection of the scientific amateur, in order to discover its real quality.”

Westminster Abbey
The Stone of Scone in the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey, 1855.In 1296 the Stone was captured by Edward I as spoils of war and taken to Westminster Abbey, where it was fitted into a wooden chair, known as King Edward's Chair, on which most subsequent English sovereigns have been crowned. Doubtless by this he intended to symbolize his claim to be "Lord Paramount" of Scotland with right to oversee its King.

Some doubt exists over the stone captured by Edward I. The Westminster Stone theory posits that the monks at Scone Palace hid the real stone in the River Tay or buried it on Dunsinane Hill, and that the English troops were fooled into taking a substitute. Some proponents of the theory claim that historic descriptions of the stone do not match the present stone. If the monks did hide the stone, they hid it well; no other stone fitting its description has ever been found.

In The Treaty of Northampton 1328, between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, England agreed to return the captured Stone to Scotland. However, riotous crowds prevented it from being removed from Westminster Abbey. It was to remain in England for another six centuries. In the course of time James VI of Scotland came to the English throne as James I of England but the stone remained in London; for the next century, the Stuart Kings and Queens of Scotland once again sat on the stone — but at their coronation as Kings and Queens of England and Scotland.

[edit] Suffragette attackOn 11 June 1914, a lady's handbag, containing an explosive device, was hung on the back of King Edward's Chair. It exploded at around 5:50 pm, blowing off part of the carved work at the back of the chair. Although no individual was charged with carrying out the attack, suffragettes were blamed because of the passage of the recent Cat and Mouse Act. The initial police report indicated that the damage to the chair was minor, but did not say whether there was any damage to the stone.

Removal and damageOn Christmas Day 1950, a group of four Scottish students (Ian Hamilton, Gavin Vernon, Kay Matheson, and Alan Stuart) took the Stone from Westminster Abbey for return to Scotland. In the process of removing it from the Abbey, the students discovered the stone was broken and probably had been for hundreds of years. After hiding the greater part of the stone with travellers in Kent for a few days, they risked the road blocks on the border and returned to Scotland with this piece, which they had hidden in the back of a borrowed car, along with a new accomplice John Josselyn. The smaller piece was similarly brought north a little while later. This journey involved a break in Leeds, where a group of sympathetic students and graduates took the fragment to Ilkley Moor for an overnight stay, accompanied by renditions of "On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at". The Stone was then passed to a senior Glasgow politician who arranged for it to be professionally repaired by Glasgow stonemason Robert Gray.

A major search for the stone had been ordered by the British Government, but this proved unsuccessful. Perhaps assuming that the Church would not return it to England, the stone's custodians left it on the altar of Arbroath Abbey, on 11 April 1951, in the safekeeping of the Church of Scotland. Once the London police were informed of its whereabouts, the Stone was returned to Westminster. Afterwards, rumours circulated that copies had been made of the Stone, and that the returned Stone was not in fact the original.

Ian Hamilton spoke of the removal and damage of the stone as recently as 26 July 2009 at The Gathering 2009 in Edinburgh.

Return to ScotlandIn 1996, in a symbolic response to growing dissatisfaction among Scots at the prevailing constitutional settlement, the British Conservative Government decided that the Stone should be kept in Scotland when not in use at coronations. On 3 July 1996 it was announced in the House of Commons that the Stone would be returned to Scotland, and on 15 November 1996, after a handover ceremony at the border between representatives of the Home Office and of the Scottish Office, it was transported to Edinburgh Castle, arriving on 30 November 1996, where it remains along with the crown jewels of Scotland in the Crown Room. It was interesting[peacock term] that this was done on St. Andrew's Day (patron Saint of Scotland) and that the Queen sent as her representative Prince Andrew. Provision has been made to transport the stone to Westminster Abbey when it is required there for future coronation ceremonies -wiki

If one is interested in the unseen world, and particularly spirits, then stones are very important. Leo's view was that such crystals held recordings, much as he considered the Acashic Records to hold the records of our planet. I think they are a link, but entrance to the other worlds. Anyway you need the right stone! IE not a forgery like the crystal skull in the British Museum now off display.

reve x

22-12-2011, 10:47 AM
The Greek word Monos is the root for monasteries, monks, the monad, monas (hieroglyphica) and Monism. Monos literally means alone and the close Greek word monas is a unit (one). Monks for example were originally hermits living alone, or even in silent communities that sustained such a loner's life. I have found my work easier on my own but the Emin did indeed sustain that. This is a long article that I have trimmed from wiki which should explain how very important and ancient this 'concept' of the one God etc is. It is comparable and perhaps conflicting with 'dualism'. Leo seemed to me to be a Law of Two man mostly and refused to even discuss the Law of One. I recall him saying that some work he was doing on the Lawe of Three almost killed him!:

Monism is any philosophical view which holds that there is unity in a given field of inquiry. Accordingly, some philosophers may hold that the universe is one rather than dualistic or pluralistic. Monisms may be theologically syncretic by proposing that there is one God who has many manifestations in the diverse religious traditions.

1.Idealism, phenomenalism, or mentalistic monism which holds that only mind is real.
2.Neutral monism, which holds that both the mental and the physical can be reduced to some sort of third substance, or energy.
3.Physicalism or materialism, which holds that only the physical is real, and that the mental or spiritual can be reduced to the physical.

... these positions do not provide a definition of what does it mean to be "real".
Ancient Western philosophersThe following pre-Socratic philosophers described reality as being monistic:

Thales: Water.
Anaximander: Apeiron (meaning 'the undefined infinite'). Reality is some, one thing, but we cannot know what.
Anaximenes: Air.
Heraclitus: Change, symbolized by fire (in that everything is in constant flux).
Parmenides: Being. Reality is an unmoving perfect sphere, unchanging, undivided. We say there are things that exist and things that don't exist; Parmenides wrote that nothing doesn't exist, only existence does.
Neopythagorians such as Apollonius of Tyana centered their cosmologies on the Monad or One.
Stoics, like Spinoza later, taught that there is only one substance, identified as God.
Middle Platonism under such works as Numenius express the Universe emanating from the Monad or One.
Neoplatonism is Monistic. Plotinus taught that there was an ineffable transcendent God, 'The One,' of which subsequent realities were emanations. From The One emanates the Divine Mind (Nous), the Cosmic Soul (Psyche), and the World (Cosmos).

Although almost all pantheists are monists, some pantheists may also be not-monists, but undeniably monists were the most famous pantheisms as that of Stoics, Plotinus and Spinoza. Exclusive Monists believe that the universe, the "God" of Naturalistic pantheism, simply does not exist. In addition, monists can be Deists, Pandeists, Theists or Panentheists; believing in a monotheistic God that is omnipotent and all-pervading, and both transcendent and immanent. There are monist pantheists and panentheists in Zoroastrianism, Hinduism (particularly in Advaita and Vishistadvaita), Judaism (monistic panentheism is especially found in Kabbalah and Hasidic philosophy[citation needed]), and in Islam (among the Sufis, especially the Bektashi).

While pantheism means all things are identical to God, panentheism means God is in all things, neither identical to, nor totally separate from all things. Such a concept, some may argue, is more compatible with God as personal while not barring a bridge between God and creation....

Hinduism is a primary proponent of Monism. In the Hindu religion, Brahman (Devanāgarī: ब्रह्मन् bráhman) is the eternal, unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe. The nature of Brahman is described as transpersonal, personal and impersonal by different philosophical schools and the Brahman religious belief is just seen as different paths to the one God. This concept of Brahman explains the prevalence of Monism in Hinduism, because Brahman is considered to be all that exists and thus everything in the universe including the universe itself is considered a manifestation of Brahman.

Monism is found in the Nasadiya Sukta of the Rigveda, which speaks of the One being-non-being that 'breathed without breath'. The first system in Hinduism that unequivocally explicated absolute monism was the non-dualist philosophy of Advaita Vedanta as expounded by Shankara. In short, Advaita declares - All is Brahman. It is part of the six Hindu systems of philosophy, based on the Upanishads, and posits that the ultimate monad is a formless, ineffable divine ground of all being.

Dvaita, dualism, is a school founded by Madhvacharya is probably the only Vedantic System which is opposed to all types of monism. It believes that God is eternally different from souls and matter in both form and essence. All Vaishnava schools are panentheistic and view the universe as part of Krishna or Narayana, but see a plurality of souls and substances within Brahman. Monistic theism, which includes the concept of a personal God as a universal, omnipotent Supreme Being who is both immanent and transcendent, is prevalent within many other schools of Hinduism as well.

Buddhist philosophy is generally suspicious of ontology. The Buddha himself, and some of his prominent disciples such as Nagarjuna, discouraged ontological theorizing for its own sake.

According to the Pali Canon, both pluralism (naanatta) and monism (ekatta) are speculative views. A Theravada commentary notes that the former is similar to or associated with nihilism (ucchedavada), and the latter is similar to or associated with eternalism (sassatavada). See middle way.

Among the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy, the ultimate nature of the world is described as emptiness, which is inseparable from sensorial objects or anything else. That appears to be a monist position, but the Madhyamaka views - including variations like Prasangika and Yogacara and the more modern shentong (which is sometimes criticized as stating the existence of an absolute) Tibetan position - will refrain from asserting any ultimately existent entity. They instead deconstruct any detailed or conceptual assertions about ultimate existence as resulting in absurd consequences. The doctrine of emptiness is also found in earlier Theravada Buddhist literature.[citation needed]

In Soto Zen teaching, it is said that "All is One and All is Different." Since non-dualism does not recognize a dualism between Oneness and Difference, or even between dualism and non-dualism, it is difficult to state the meaning of this doctrine. All discussion of this teaching by Soto Zen masters falls under the Buddhist concept of skill in means, which is to say, not literally correct, but suitable for leading others to the Truth. Chinese Soto (Cao-Dong) master Tozan (Tung Shan, Dongshan) wrote the Verses of the Five Ranks (of the Ideal and the Actual), which is also important as a set of koans in the Rinzai school. Dongshan describes the Fifth Rank in part thus:

Unity Attained:
Who dares to equal him
Who falls into neither being nor non-being!

Shih-t'ou Hsi-ch'ien's poem "The Harmony of Difference and Sameness" Sandokai is an important early expression of Zen Buddhism and is chanted in Sōtō temples to this day. Another poem of Tung-shan Liang-chieh on these and related themes, "The Song of the Jewel Mirror Awareness", is also chanted in Sōtō temples daily.

Other expressions of this teaching include the koan:

A disciple asked, "What is the difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened man?"

The Master replied, "The unenlightened man sees a difference, but the enlightened man does not."

and Dogen Zenji's personal koan, "Why are training and enlightenment differentiated, since the Truth is universal?" (Fukanzazengi, Instructions for Meditation)

"No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation."

Much of Christianity strongly maintains the Creator-creature distinction as fundamental. Many Christians maintain that God created the universe ex nihilo and not from himself, nor within himself, so that the creator is not to be confused with creation, but rather transcends it (metaphysical dualism) (cf. Genesis). Even the more immanent concepts and theologies are to be defined together with God's omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience, due to God's desire for intimate contact with his own creation (cf. Acts 17:27). Another use of the term "monism" is in Christian anthropology to refer to the innate nature of humankind as being holistic, as usually opposed to bipartite and tripartite views.

While some might say the Christian metaphysics are dualistic in that they describe the Creator's transcendence of creation, they reject radical dualism such as the idea that God is eternally struggling with other equal powers such as Satan (cf. Gospel of John 14:30). In On Free Choice of the Will, Augustine argued, in the context of the problem of evil, that evil is not the opposite of good, but rather merely the absence of good, something that does not have existence in itself. Likewise, C. S. Lewis described evil as a "parasite" in Mere Christianity, as he viewed evil as something that cannot exist without good to provide it with existence. Lewis went on to argue against dualism from the basis of moral absolutism, and rejected the dualistic notion that God and Satan are opposites, arguing instead that God has no equal, hence no opposite. Lewis rather viewed Satan as the opposite of Michael the archangel. Due to this, Lewis instead argued for a more limited type of dualism. Other theologians, such as Greg Boyd, have argued in more depth that the Biblical authors held a "limited dualism", meaning that God and Satan do engage in real battle, but only due to free will given by God, for the duration God allows.

In Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, while human beings are not ontologically identical with the Creator, they are nonetheless capable with uniting with his Divine Nature via theosis. In addition to this supernatural union, St. John of the Cross says, "it must be known that God dwells and is present substantially in every soul, even in that of the greatest sinner in the world, and this union is natural." St. Julian of Norwich, while maintaining the orthodox duality of Creator and creature, nonetheless speaks of God as "the true Father and true Mother" of all natures; thus, he indwells them substantially and thus preserves them from annihilation, as without this sustaining indwelling everything would cease to exist.

...The process of uniting (unity) all to a single 'thing' (hen) as a form of salvation is called henosis. Henosis teaches that man is God (in that mankind has the concept of God intrinsic to consciousness and God can be grasp by thought or rational contemplation).

Judaism: According to Chasidic Thought (particularly as propounded by Shneur Zalman of Liadi) of Chabad, God is held to be immanent within creation for two interrelated reasons.

Firstly, a very strong Jewish belief is that "[t]he Divine life-force which brings [the universe] into existence must constantly be present... were this life-force to forsake [the universe] for even one brief moment, it would revert to a state of utter nothingness, as before the creation..."
Secondly, and simultaneously, Judaism holds as axiomatic that God is an absolute unity, and that He is Perfectly Simple - thus if His sustaining power is within nature, then His essence is also within nature.
However, the Vilna Gaon was very much against this philosophy, for he felt that it would lead to pantheism and heresy. According to some this is the main reason for the Gaon's ban on Chasidism.

Note that, at the same time, Jewish thought considers God as separate from all physical, created things (transcendent) and as existing outside of time (eternal). For a discussion of the resultant paradox; see Tzimtzum.

According to Maimonides, (see Foundations of the Law, Chapter 1), God is an incorporeal being that caused all other existence. In fact, God is defined as the necessary existent that caused all other existence. According to Maimonides, to admit corporeality to God is tantamount to admitting complexity to God, which is a contradiction to God as the First Cause and constitutes heresy. While Hasidic mystics considered the existence of the physical world a contradiction to God's simpleness, Maimonides saw no contradiction. See the Guide for the Perplexed, especially chapter I:50.

Islam: Many followers of Sufism advocated monism. Most notably the 13th-century Persian poet Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi-Rumi (1207–73) in his didactic poem Masnavi espoused monism. Rumi says in the Masnavi, "in the shop for Unity (wahdat); anything that you see there except the One is an idol."

Another verse in the Quran is "To God belongs the East and the West, Wheresoever you look is the face of God.(Sura 2:115)".

There are many other verses such as Quran 15:29, 38:72 etc. which say that God blew spirit into man.

Baha'i: Although the Bahá'í teachings have a strong emphasis on social and ethical issues, there exist a number of foundational texts that have been described as mystical. The Seven Valleys is considered Bahá'u'lláh's "greatest mystical composition." It was written to a follower of Sufism, in the style of `Attar, a Muslim poet, and sets forth the stages of the soul's journey towards God. It was first translated into English in 1906, becoming one of the earliest available books of Bahá'u'lláh to the West. The Hidden Words is another book written by Bahá'u'lláh during the same period, containing 153 short passages in which Bahá'u'lláh claims to have taken the basic essence of certain spiritual truths and written them in brief form.

Monism can be said to oppose religious philosophy altogether by claiming that the idea of spirituality contradicts the monist principle of an indistinguishable mind and body.

Materialistic monism (or monistic materialism) is the philosophical concept which sees the unity of matter in its globality. For the materialistic monist the cosmos is “one” and comprehensive, then a “one-all” made up of parts such as its effects. The matter is then originary and cause of all reality

I know that is a bit indigestible but it is the groundwork needed to look more closely at what we are when we are in a cult (Oxford Dict: System of religous worship; devotion or homage to person or thing... Latin colere/cult inhabit, till, worship). The 'till' of cult is tilling the earth by the way. Inhabit is a vital part of the word and what a cult is too.

Most people worship themselves if the truth be known.

My attackers ran out of energy last night but I dreaesay have more in store. i wish an Emin would make a definitive statement here about shunning and attacking occultly ex-members who I consider are in fact 'graduates' and the mainstay of what the Emin really is. You cannot take a man like Orman out of the Emin. They are one and the same.

all the best for saturnalia

reve x

22-12-2011, 01:16 PM
You made it!

I wonder how many were aware of the handover today from one age to another. Yesterday really was that shortest day and darkest hour, and dawn has at last arrived for an age quite different, the lengthening of days will be literal for its inhabitants and the wars and armies a thing genuinely of the past,. But it has been close and would not have happened if they had realised that it was set for 22/12/2011 not 21/12/2112. It caught most of them by surprise. The next Summer Solstice is ours.

The change will be mostly spiritual this year as the human takes time to change safely. But it is time for the last age to be exposed for what it was and the new direction explained. In our little community it relates to something that most reading will not like at all. So do not read it. You are all quite safe now but it is creepy.

Beelzebub or Baalzebub as you will know means Lord (Baal) of the Flies. Gurdjieff’s famous tome was named for him. There is a literal connection to flies. Over the last years I have had several attacks from an occult source. The first noticeable sign is literally smelling a rat. It is hidden somewhere in the walls or under the floors but cannot be found without ripping up the house. Carnivorous flies make their way. The smell is bad enough but after a couple of weeks the plague of flies will emerge. Last month I was attacked again. The flies are attracted to the light so head to it but can get no further than the glass. The black hole of a hoover then calmly collects them. I guess I collected at least a thousand. It is the physical sign of this one’s displeasure. No matter. This is how the incubus or succubus works.

It is necessary to understand the power this beast held in the last age. And how cleverly he was concealed. The ‘king’ of the flies is the dragon fly, also the most predatory of all as Leo delighted to recount. Leo’s meticulous chalk drawings showed us how we were, or could be the ‘human dragonfly‘ complete with wings and multi eyes presumably. All of its power derived from the thyroid gland. The thyroid can be over or under active and kill you one way or another. It absorbs all the iodine in the body, and any radio active iodine that happens to come close. It takes commands from the pituitary gland normally and powers everything, including and specifically this creature.

We were all inhabited by this human dragon fly larvae, and the things grew up in us much to the alarm of our own little childish inner lives. But as we did not know it was there and it is a glorious creature we were very happy preening ourselves in our new colours and with out new names.

When I left the Emin as you may know I had to take radio active iodine to kill my thyroid before it killed me. We had a long war. I lost most of my hair for a while and came close to death several times with the damage it did to my heart and health, as did the drugs prescribed to treat it. I compared this to Shiva whose blue throat came about by taking just such a deadly poison. I was then free of Beelzebub, but not free from attack. He cannot attack me or you anymore and like all of creation should be justified.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life and you can decide whether you want Beelzebub in you or not. If not (even if you don’t believe me) just look yourself in the forehead in the mirror and speak the words ‘I revoke you Beelzebub’ or ‘Beelzebub if you are or were there please go now’.

You really do not want to be part of that plague of flies even though they are magnificent. This age is about being ourselves. Next I thought we might look at what really happened 2000 years ago.

Reve x

23-12-2011, 11:31 AM
We either hide from it or it is hidden but it has a habit of coming out in the end. It will all be ok, but it is a perilous journey to get there and truth is the destination.

Mr Gurdjieff's book was beloved by Leo, who claimed to be the only one to understand it and did not wish us to read it, although some of us probably had. It is where Leo got many of his groundwork theories, which he passed off as his own. Read on:-

wiki (lest you think I make it up): Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson or An Objectively Impartial Criticism of the Life of Man is the first volume of the All and Everything trilogy written by the Greek-Armenian mystic G. I. Gurdjieff. The All and Everything trilogy also includes Meetings with Remarkable Men (first published in 1963) and Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am' (first privately printed in 1974).

Because the book was intended to be the main study tool for his teachings, and because the idea of work is central to those teachings, Gurdjieff went to great lengths in order to increase the effort needed to read and understand it. Gurdjieff himself once said, “I bury the bone so deep that the dogs have to scratch for it." The book treats of an enormous number of subjects and questions. It is a vast allegorical myth structure in a literary form all its own.

The plot of Beelzebub's Tales primarily revolves around the ruminations of an extraterrestrial known as "Beelzebub" to his grandson Hassein, as they travel through space towards Beelzebub's home planet "Karatas" on the spaceship Karnak. It mainly recounts the adventures and travails of Beelzebub amongst the 'three-brained beings' (humans) of the planet Earth. Beelzebub covers the entire history of the strange behaviors and customs of these beings.

Beelzebub is the protagonist of the book, who ruminates his past experiences in a solar system called "Ors" (our solar system) where he had been banished for rebelling against His Endlessness. He spent his exile in observation of the solar system, and of Earth and humans in particular. He visited Earth six times and observed it from just after its creation until 1922. Because of his help in the eradication of animal sacrifice on Earth, Beelzebub was pardoned from his sentence.

Beelzebub tells the tales to his grandson Hassein while they are traveling together on the spaceship Karnak for his conference on another planet, shortly after his return from the exile. He took Hassein with him so he could use his free time during this journey for the purpose of giving a proper education to his grandson. Hassein listens to his grandfather's stories patiently, and with admiration. Ahoon is a devoted old servant of Beelzebub who accompanies him and Hassein throughout the space journey.

The name Beelzebub is a derogatory Hebrew renaming of the pre-Judaic Canaanite god Baal, meaning literally "Lord House-fly" (Baal-zevuv) (monotheistic Jewish reference to Baal was almost certainly pejorative, and grew to be used among other terms for Satan. The name later appears as the name of a demon or devil, often interchanged with Beelzebul), while the name Hassein has the same linguistic root with Husayn (Arabic: حسین‎)). Sigmund Freud theorized Judaism and Christianity as expressing a relationship between father (Judaism) and son (Christianity). In this light, Gurdjieff's choice of grandfather and grandson suggests a pre-Judaic and post-Christian relationship.

The spaceship Karnak derives its name from a famous temple in Egypt, located on the banks of the River Nile. When humans are liberated enough to ascend through the ancient knowledge, they could travel through the universe, hence the temple's name for the spaceship.

Another possible allegory about the three main characters in this book is that they might represent Gurdjieff's representation of the three human brains, or centers.

1) Beelzebub - Intellectual center

2) Hassein - Emotional center

3) Ahoon - Moving Center.

Also, "Karnak" could be translated from Armenian to English as "dead body", and thus, this analogy shows how the mind educates the emotions.

Other major characters: Mullah Nassreddin is an impartial teacher who had a wise saying for every life situation.

Lentrohamsanin is a being who destroyed all of the traces of the Holy labors and teachings of Ashiata Shiemash.

Gornahoor Harharkh is a scientist on the planet Saturn who specializes in elucidating the particularities of Okidanokh, as well as he was Beelzebub's essence friend.

Archangel Looisos is the Arch-Chemist-Physician of the Universe who invented the special organ Kundabuffer, which was implanted at the base of the human spine in order that they should not perceive reality. The original word Kundabuffer was at some period in history transformed into the word Kundalini. Looisos approached Beelzebub for the problem of the widespread practice of animal sacrifice on Earth, the quantity of which was endangering the formation of an atmosphere on the moon.

Belcultassi is the founder of the society Akhaldan which was, and still is, unmatched in terms of knowledge on Earth.

King Konuzion is the one who invented "Hell" and "Paradise" as a means of making people stop chewing opium.

Choon-Kil-Tez and Choon-Tro-Pel are Chinese twin brothers who rediscovered the law of sevenfoldness, and invented an apparatus called "Alla-Attapan".

Hadji-Astvatz-Troov is a Bokharian Dervish who is well familiarized with all of the laws of vibrations and their effects.

Saintly cosmic individualsAshiata Shiemash, Saint Budda, Saint Lama, Saint Jesus Christ, Saint Moses, Saint Mohammed, Saint Kirminasha, Saint Krishnatkharna

Minor characters and historical figures mentioned: Leonardo Da Vinci, Pythagoras, Alexander of Macedonia, Menitkel, Darwin, Ignatius, Mesmer, Mendelejeff, Various Angels, Various Archangels, and many others.

Unknown words: Throughout the book, Gurdjieff gave certain meaning to many of his original words such as Triamazikamno - law of three, Heptaparaparshinokh - law of sevenfoldness, Solioonensius - certain cosmic law, and so on. Whether Gurdjieff invented these words, or applied certain concepts to them is unclear. Many of these words have roots in modern languages, while others have roots in ancient languages. Another possibility is noted in Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am', where Gurdjieff wrote that he accidentally learned of the word Solioonensius from a Dervish.

Gurdjieff applied these words to minor concepts, as well as some major ones. One of the major concepts is where Gurdjieff applies the word Hasnamuss to certain types of people. According to Beelzebub's Tales, Hasnamuss is a being who acquires "something" which creates certain harmful factors for himself, as well as for those around him. According to Gurdjieff this applies to "average people" as well as to those who are on "higher levels".

This "something" is formed in beings as a result of the following manifestations:

1) Every kind of depravity, conscious as well as unconscious

2) The feeling of self-satisfaction from leading others astray

3) The irresistible inclination to destroy the existence of other breathing creatures

4) The urge to become free from the necessity of actualizing the being-efforts demanded by nature

5) The attempt by every kind to artificially conceal from others what in their opinion are one's physical defects

6) The calm self-contentment in the use of what is not personally deserved

7) The striving to be not what one is

Complication of the plot: Gurdjieff went to great lengths to add layer upon layer of complexity to the book making it some of the most difficult and challenging reading one can take up. At times dry, long winded, or seemingly ridiculous, Gurdjieff also added a huge list of complicated words which appear frequently throughout the text. Many times the definition of those words is given later on in the text, and thereby further understanding of the book is further complicated.

The first chapter, entitled "The Arousing of Thought", was edited or rewritten by Gurdjieff thirty times. Gurdjieff also expounded one of the book's most controversial ideas in an early chapter entitled "The Arch-absurd: According to the assertion of Beelzebub, our Sun neither lights or heats".

One of Gurdjieff's chief criticisms of modern society, expressed quite clearly even to the casual reader in this particular volume, is the inexactitude of modern language. What follows is the first sentence of Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson:

"AMONG other convictions formed in my common presence during my responsible, peculiarly composed life, there is one such also—an indubitable conviction—that always and everywhere on the earth, among people of every degree of development of understanding and of every form of manifestation of the factors which engender in their individuality all kinds of ideals, there is acquired the tendency, when beginning anything new, unfailingly to pronounce aloud or, if not aloud, at least mentally, that definite utterance understandable to every even quite illiterate person, which in different epochs has been formulated variously and in our day is formulated in the following words: "In the name of the Father and of the Son and in the name of the Holy Ghost, Amen.
The reason for complicating so far the plot of this book is to increase the effort and the attention required from the reader to understand this book. This is because of Gurdjieff's conviction that knowledge which comes without any effort from the student is completely useless for that student. He thought that true knowledge comes from personal experiences and individual confrontations actualized by one's own intentions.

The complexity and the length of this book limited the readers to only those who are interested in Gurdjieff's ideas. Thereby it also significantly limited criticism towards it.

Gurdjieff was all right in a way but was not a truth teller. He was not complicating and hiding the truth at all, he did not find it in the first place. The plot is ridiculous, a prototype for Star Wars not serious work. His fans honestly believed that he had met with the secret brotherhood somewhere near Tibet and had their hidden knowledge. Obviously he had studied and his 'fourth way' was supposed to be a development of Buddha's third way, middle way. he did not know where the night school was but had heard about it. Today you will find the world full of such ridiculous theories. Leo talked about the Saturnians as creatures with birds' heads!

Unfortunately this gets in our way too. You should understand that the Lord of the Flies is educating you in his own preferred, distorted from the truth, way (not 4th) and is honest enough to tell you that. If you read the book. But Leo did not tell us that at all. Crowley at least called his book, the Book of Lies so if you choose to believe it more fool you. Now Leo needs this put right as he has an angry little Emin over there.

Emins are now passing away in increasing numbers and angrily compaining that they did not know all of this. It is not an excuse in law not to know the lawT. If you asked the average First World War trench based infantryman after he died what he was fighting for what, would he say? Freedom - no. The Empire - no. Good - certainly not. The only answer you will get is for his life. He will be shot by his own if he does not kill the man opposite him. He could be, and probably was, fighting for the devil but he had no real choice. Or did he?

This is the position most of us have been in. What is at the top of the triangle? It is probably the last thing on our minds in our excitement at finding such a knowledgeable and competant guru. Fortunately it can be the Ymn (those minor characters in Gurdjieff's book) rather than Beelzebub, if that is what you want. But you have to choose. You cannot say you have no choice as no one is pointing a gun at your back and the truth is not in hiding anymore.

reve x

23-12-2011, 11:26 PM
Yes he did, check my PM.

How did you know Jason? I am his mother and in the emin for many years. Did we meet?

26-12-2011, 09:01 AM
How did you know Jason? I am his mother and in the emin for many years. Did we meet?

Hi Image

I didn't know Jason, but I know his younger brother. I have tried to private message you but I think you have turned off the ability for private messages from people on this board.

I am still part of the Emin but I am not sure if I know you unless you go to the Centre still?

Anyway, let me know how to contact you privately.


27-12-2011, 10:19 AM
I remember in early Putney days, probably on an archive tape somewhere, Leo asked us for words we considered very important. He was fishing for 'attitude' in the certain knowledge that one of his circle would oblige, as they did. I stood up and said 'God', a very reasonable choice as a monist. Leo went mad and carpeted me for about 20 minutes while he took the words he wanted, then sent me back to my seat with a growl.

Who lives in a house where the cries of abused children and women sexually assaulted by the treachers are ignored? Where the core teachings are taken from the leader of the fallen angels, who was not forgiven for stopping animal sacrifice at all. The Moslems sacrificed countless animals at the recent hadj, the red and white bulls have been selected for the third temple and you all enjoy your 'Sunday roast'. An absolute holocaust in animal terms of course.

Whos leader lives in a luxurious palace but demands contributions from families whose first priority should be their families? Who lies about the source of his teachings and makes himself look like a cloned black magician.

I am afraid it is too late for him as his Emins are not for changing course at all. No great charity lives here for sure, no victims will be cared for or ever apologised to. And the little boy pointing out that the emperor wears Beelzebub's clothes will always be attacked and shunned.

So who does live in a house like this? A great guru or a scam artist, as was observed by a non emin.

It could all be so different but if Azazel is at the top it wont be I assure you.

reve x

27-12-2011, 05:33 PM
I loved Leo's work with nursery rhymes and am reminded of one today as hurricanes head back in my direction. A car crash at lunchtime and the usual threatening dreams last night. Old Age rather than New Age I think.

The tale of the Three Little Pigs and the Big Bad Wolf was included in The nursery rhymes of England (London and New York, c.1886), by James Orchard Halliwell-Phillipps. The story in its arguably best-known form appeared English Fairy Tales by Joseph Jacobs, first published in 1890 and crediting Halliwell as his source. The story begins with the title characters being sent out into the world by their mother, to "seek their fortune". The first little pig builds a house of straw, but a wolf blows it down and eats the pig. The second pig builds a house of sticks, with the same ultimate result. Each exchange between wolf and pig features ringing proverbial phrases, namely:

"Little pig, little pig, let me come in."
"No, no, not by the hair on my chinny chin chin."
"Then I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house in."

The third pig builds a house of hard bricks, which the wolf fails to blow down. He then attempts to trick the pig out of the house, but the pig outsmarts him at every turn. Finally, the wolf resolves to come down the chimney, whereupon the pig boils a pot of water in which the wolf then lands and is cooked.

The story utilizes the literary **Rule of three, expressed in this case as a "contrasting three", as the third pig's house turns out to be the only one which is adequate to withstand the wolf.

Variations of the tale appeared in Uncle Remus: His Songs and Sayings in 1881. The story also made an appearance in Nights with Uncle Remus in 1883, both by Joel Chandler Harris, in which the pigs were replaced by Brer Rabbit. Andrew Lang included it in "The Green Fairy Book", published in 1892, but did not cite his source. In contrast to Jacobs' version, which left the pigs nameless, Lang's retelling cast the pigs as Browny, Whitey, and Blacky. It also set itself apart by exploring each pig's character and detailing interaction between them. The antagonist of this version is a fox, not a wolf. Blacky, the third pig, rescues his brother and sister from the fox's den after killing the fox.

Retellings of the story sometimes omit the attempts to trick the third pig, or state that the first pig ran to the second pig's house, then both of them ran to the third pig's house of bricks. The latter is often an attempt to write out death or violence in the story.

I remember Emin numerology had FOX as 666. **Is this the same 'Law of 3' that upset the lion one day? I live in a brick house, albeit with blown down wooden fences from the last hurricane, but it does have a chimney fortunately. My credentials are here and my foundations are quite deep on this particular subject as any reader of this thread must admit whether they agree with my views or not. My views are only views after all. I wish an Emin could post here a defence of Leo and any suggestion of the Emin's link with a 'satanic' cult (the fallen angels are the original 'satans'). Crowley's fans would laugh if you suggested they were in a satanic cult, it is obvious. That is what the Templars thought too. Is this what they must not tell their children and why certain subjects were banned from discussion by Leo? I was shocked to the core when I found out and am now so grateful to my Dad for coming on a working Sunday and doing battle with Leo over me. Leo was talking to my Dad about the Church of England exorcist being his friend, while looking at a real one. But it takes a life or more usually to find out who is who.

You cannot defend Leo by attacking me, that is offensive. I am serious about trying to get him out of a hot spot. Huff and puff here for a change.

reve x

28-12-2011, 09:53 AM
Hi Image

I didn't know Jason, but I know his younger brother. I have tried to private message you but I think you have turned off the ability for private messages from people on this board.

I am still part of the Emin but I am not sure if I know you unless you go to the Centre still?

Anyway, let me know how to contact you privately.


Casimir (forgotten his emin name) was Jason's half brother and was in the emin for a while and was with Genine at that time. I am having trouble sorting out things on this site as new to it. Perhaps you could advise? I know the centre in Barnet and have been to a cafe night together with Purchase, Verity, Orman, Heather and my partner Virgil, all ex Emin members (ifyou can call us that) of long standing. Do you also know who writes under the name of CarlPerkins as he mentioned Jason as well. Don't know how to access on this site? Hope this message gets to you.

28-12-2011, 09:59 AM
Will CarlPerkins let me know who he is as he was a friend of Jason (my son) and I am curious?
Regards, Image

28-12-2011, 10:21 AM
Will CarlPerkins let me know who he is as he was a friend of Jason (my son) and I am curious?
Regards, Image

Hi Image

If you go to your profile on this board you can amend your settings to receive private messages. Or if you click on my name - dreadwear - you can send me a private message. Message me with your email address so I can email you.

I know Casimir very well.


28-12-2011, 10:28 AM
Casimir (forgotten his emin name) was Jason's half brother and was in the emin for a while and was with Genine at that time. I am having trouble sorting out things on this site as new to it. Perhaps you could advise? I know the centre in Barnet and have been to a cafe night together with Purchase, Verity, Orman, Heather and my partner Virgil, all ex Emin members (ifyou can call us that) of long standing. Do you also know who writes under the name of CarlPerkins as he mentioned Jason as well. Don't know how to access on this site? Hope this message gets to you.

Image, you could try to email me at dreadwear@yahoo.co.uk and I will email you back right away.


30-12-2011, 09:59 AM
Leo got his laws, centres, colours and Tarot from Gurdjieff who died in 1949. Although he never publicly admitted it in my presence Leo was a student of Gurdjieff and quite competitive with other famous teachers of this 'Fourth way' or as it was called the 'way of the sly man' or 'cunning man' or indeed fox.

According to G and hence Leo, the earth was Or, the moon Ur and the sun Ir. This also related to our brains apparently. G had this thing about the sun actually being a cold planet behind a fiery disc, so did Leo. The name Toir relates to the desire of the fallen angels like Beelzebub to 'go home to Ir'. When Leo channelled Toir I watched him very closely. Sure enough Toir regurdjieffed a lot of Fourth Way arcane knowledge, most of which is misleading in fact. The great white craving is not sugar, but it might be salt, skin, cocaine, morphine etc. The great brown craving would be as apt - chocolate, beer, coffee, oil, skin again. It is childish stuff but the best an angel, who 'fell', can do to mislead..

There are fallen angels here, that is why some call it a prison planet. They were never forgiven and were told they 'had no peace'. They battle in and with the human and when you look into them, as Leo explained, they came here for a dirty weekend and sex is never far away.

Did Leo know what he was playing with? Probably no more than the readers here who would prefer Friends Reunited in actual fact. But now it is important. You cannotygo on thinking you are in some 'way' when it is a satanic cult can you? Just thinking it is not is not enough. It has to change radically, become more charitable, and we all need to look more deeply into the 'laws' that started and still govern it. If we do all will and can be justified.

Where are the Emins on this? people like Beta, Tagir, Egeoin, Saturn (who I dreamed of recently) etc? They all knew about Beelzebub (aka Toir, Riot, Rota etc). Where are they now? Why was Leo not honest about the real core of his teachings? We are the answer. People who would not go near a satanic cult if they knew and were comforted by Leo's growls about Crowley, although Leo gave the impression that he could have handled the horned one better that C.

I guess Emin is a bit more facebook nowadays but it (ETHRA!) has questions to answer to an old graduate please. I still see the good in Leo but the rest cannot be ignored and free to mislead more innocents.

reve x

30-12-2011, 10:18 AM
Will CarlPerkins let me know who he is as he was a friend of Jason (my son) and I am curious?
Regards, Image

Hi Image, I've been away for a few days and have just seen your message now. You would have known me as Obi or Oberon, I remember meeting you a few times at Jasons flat in Muswell Hill. I was also a friend of Silver. I hope you are well, I'll try to send a more personal message to you as well.
Take care...

30-12-2011, 02:18 PM
Just to show you where it (the trademark) comes from here is an extract:

By all reports Gurdjieff was a vigorous, charismatic man with a robust sexual nature,
described by biographer James Webb as “a sensual man who enjoyed the pleasures of the
bed as much as those of the table.” Gurdjieff's sexual conduct shocked many people
in the 1920s and 1930s, especially in conservative America. There were rumours that he
had a highly varied sex life and was involved in unusual sexual practices. Some claimed
he was a master of exotic Tantric sexual teachings learned in the East. While many of the
stories surrounding Gurdjieff and sex were clearly fictitious or based on hearsay, there is
a body of information on this subject gleaned from the written accounts of his pupils and
research by biographers, scholars and academics that can be considered reasonably
Gurdjieff held many traditional conservative beliefs and attitudes about sexuality,
probably based on his upbringing and cultural conditioning. He strongly condemned
masturbation, contraception and homosexuality as affronts to the proper order of nature.
At the same time he clearly possessed a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of the
role of sexuality in the process of spiritual transformation, and enunciated a complex
model of the transmutation of sexual energy to a higher developmental level. Sometimes
Gurdjieff created teaching situations which revealed to his students and others the hypnotic
power of their conditioned attitudes and unconscious expression of sexuality.
Gurdjieff’s personal sex life appears from all accounts to be complex and sometimes
contradictory, with varied expressions throughout his life. At times he was celibate, at
other periods highly sexually charged. He fathered numerous children out of wedlock,
including many with his own female disciples.
Critics have roundly condemned Gurdjieff’s sexual behaviour as irresponsible and
contrary to the actions of an authentic spiritual teacher. But teachers in many other
spiritual traditions have engaged in exactly the same kind of sexual behaviour. The
notion that spiritual masters must always be celibate and beyond the “base desires of
earthly sexuality” is clearly an idealized myth and not congruent with reality.
However, the issue of a sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his or her
student(s) raises a number of important ethical questions: Is a sexual relationship between
a teacher and student harmful or beneficial from a spiritual perspective? Is there an
imbalance of power between teacher and student that compromises the authentic
expression of a loving relationship between two equal partners? Is it possible to separate
an intimate sexual relationship from an objective impersonal transmission of spiritual
Gurdjieff's Beliefs About Sexuality
Gurdjieff discussed sex with his pupils both in his lectures and in their private conversations.
He believed that the function of sex was twofold: to ensure the continuation
of the human species, and to produce a ‘finer energy’ to nourish higher spiritual development.
He regarded sexual energy as sacred and wrote in Beelzebub’s Tales to His
Grandson that sex “constitutes and is considered everywhere in our Great Universe for
beings of all kinds of natures, as the most sacred of all sacred Divine sacraments.” (3)
Gurdjieff was of the opinion that sexual energy in the modern Western world was
misused in the pursuit of personal pleasure and gratification. (4) He claimed that, in
general, the only two proper ways of expending sexual energy were through a conventional
sex life or through spiritual transmutation. In 1916 Gurdjieff spoke to his Russian
pupils about the misdirection of sexual energy in the pursuits of everyday life and the
self-deception it can entail:
.......Gurdjieff linked sex to personal development and, as such, considered it to have a
different function for each individual:
....For instance, he described masturbation as a harmful
affliction and an evil, and even claimed in Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson that
people were transformed into “psychopaths” by the practice. Further, he endorsed male
and female circumcision as a means to prevent masturbation in youth: “This terrible
children’s disease of onanism is scarcely ever found among those children upon whom
this rite has been performed, whereas the children of those parents who fail to observe
this custom are almost all subject to it.” (7)
Gurdjieff also insisted that achieving an orgasm before reaching adulthood had
serious consequences on an adolescent’s mental development: “If even once the sensation
of the climax of what is called the ‘Ooomonvanosi process’ occurs in what is called the
“nervous system” of their children before they reach majority, they will already never
have the full possibility of normal mentation when they become adults.” (8)
Gurdjieff's conservative ideas also manifested in a strong homophobia. Pupil Fritz
Peters relates that “he was puritanical, even a fanatic about homosexuality, and condemned
it vigorously . . . he felt that homosexuality - as a career - was a dead-end street.” (9)
Ironically, many of Gurdjieff's female students, including his group ‘The Rope,’ were
lesbian. It seems unlikely that Gurdjieff subscribed, in a practical way, to the belief that
spiritual development was possible only with a “normal” sex life and orientation.
Gurdjieff's Sexual Behaviour
Gurdjieff was keenly interested in people’s sexuality and how it manifested in different
personality types. Students report how he was able to describe in accurate detail,
and often in vulgar and amusing terms, the sex lives and sexual history of some of his
followers or the people who came to him for advice.
Gurdjieff often took advantage of the sexual preoccupations of people to provide a
teaching lesson. In 1933, Gurdjieff invited a number of influential New York writers and
journalists to a party. Fritz Peters was able to observe first-hand Gurdjieff's striking
demonstration of the role of sex in human behaviour.
During the dinner party Gurdjieff subtly switched roles from that of the
perfect host to that of satyr . . . The result was the beginning of an orgy.
Gurdjieff eventually stopped proceedings by ridiculing his guests and
directing them to see from their conduct what they really were. He told
them that, as this was an important lesson, he deserved to be paid; and
according to Peters collected several thousand dollars. (10)
Gurdjieff's use of the power of sex as a teaching tool also had a light-hearted side, as
some of his female students discovered. He would sometimes encourage young women
to visit him late at night, implying that a “special kind of experience” awaited them.
When they arrived, their expectations were usually exposed and dashed:
Sometimes young women would come to Paris to visit him. He would
flirt outrageously with them, and invite them to come back to the flat late
at night when everyone had gone. Often thinking that this was some kind
of mysterious test, or just frankly curious, they would go. In all cases that
I heard of, Gurdjieff would open the door, look astonished and say: “Why
you come now?” give them a handful of sweets and send them away. (11)
But not all female followers were treated to a gentle rebuke. Nicholas de Val, a
natural son of Gurdjieff and for many years his personal assistant, reported that in 1937,
even though approaching 70 years of age, Gurdjieff’s sex life was so robust that it disturbed
his sleep to such an extent that he was forced to move to a nearby hotel!
The most reliable information about Gurdjieff's sexuality is provided by student John
Bennett who conducted extensive research on almost all aspects of his life:
His sexual life was strange in its unpredictability. At certain times
he led a strict, almost ascetic life, having no relation with women at
all. At other times, his sex life seemed to go wild and it must be said
that his unbridled periods were more frequent than the ascetic. At
times, he had sexual relationships not only with almost any woman
who happened to come within the sphere of his influence, but also
with his own pupils. Quite a number of his women pupils bore him
children and some of them remained closely connected with him all
their lives. Others were just as close to him, as far as one could tell,
without a sexual relationship. (12)
A great many stories and gossip about Gurdjieff's reputed sexual activities surfaced
over the years. While many of the claims were exaggerated, there is no doubt that
Gurdjieff fathered a number of children. Gurdjieff did not believe in contraceptives and
one result of his sexual behaviour was the birth of more than a half dozen children by
various women, many of them his own students. (13) A member of a New York group
wrote in the 1930s that: “His women followers obviously adored him, and some of those
who had found favor in his sight had visible mementos: swarthy and liquid-eyed
children.” (14)
John Bennett comments on the effect that Gurdjieff's sexual liaisons with some of his
female pupils had on their teacher-student relationship: “There was a tendency on the part
of some of the women to convey the impression that only women could really understand
him and only those women who had slept with him were really initiated into his
work.” (15) Although for some women the Work and sexual relationship were inseparable,
for most female followers this was not the case. In the words of John Bennett,
Gurdjieff could be “all things to all women.”
The fact that Gurdjieff was sexually involved with pupils raises ethical issues and
challenges our notions of the teacher-student relationship. James Webb examines some
of the implications of Gurdjieff's behaviour in terms of his use and misuse of power[/LEFT][/CENTER]: http://gurdjiefffourthway.org/pdf/sexual.pdf

blah blah. Well they would say that. But it should not be taken seriously. G, like Leo, loved to undermine the men around him and fell out with people quite easily. Their early lives are both uncannily similar and in G's case completely unsubstantiated and unlikely. He was a family boy always drawn home when in trouble, till quite late in life. It is highly improbable that at the age of 12 he was searching for the brotherhood in Egypt and Central Asia with another 30 psychic masters, but check out his 'chronology' yourselves it is freely available these days. It is where we all get it from.

In fact he was right, he was in a secret brotherhood from around that age, the angelic horde. And he was looking for the Ymns but unsuccessfully. Lying does not work near truth. He was a self confessed liar and thief and tried to steal from us. But it all works out eventually (hope)

reve x

31-12-2011, 12:33 AM

ex member here!

31-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Jason was one of the most amazing people I have ever met. He had the most wonderful sense of humour and the deepest insight into what we used to call "the big picture". His passing of over 20 years ago at such a young age was a great loss to me. Image, when I get your email, I will write to you. I hope your new year starts well.

31-12-2011, 12:34 PM

ex member here! (or esteemed graduate)

Hi Mananaan son of Lir how nice to meet a true Emhain here.

(can you keep your waves below tsunami level ;))

I dreamed of Ethra last night and she was very nice, I hope this was not a dream of contrary. Happy New Year to all.

reve x

31-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Something the Tibetans learned long agon is that it takes a while to die well. Leo would mention this sometimes. He concentrated on blood bodies and mental bodies. The blood bodies he said were created by torture sometimes which was why the Apaches might light a slow burning bonfire on the chests of enemies they admired. I remember Ermin one day in a small meeting looking up and saying his mental body had just met up with his wife somewhere else. That kind of thing.

Are you going to be buried or cremated and how long will you wait after death? Will you have friends praying constantly over you or someone reading the Tibetan Book of dying while you lie there? or do you think it makes no difference?

Sogyal Rinpoche is the great Tibetan guru who set up Rigpa centres all over the world. Like some other gurus he was in trouble over assaulting female members of his group but seems to have settled that (On 23 May 2011, an episode of the documentary series, Sex Scandals In Religion aired on Christian based Canadian television VisionTV. It was an investigative look at a series of allegations and court cases involving women around the world who alleged that they had first-hand experiences of sexual inappropriateness from Sogyal Rinpoche. The Rigpa Organization flatly denied the accusations.wiki)

He wrote a 'Tibetan Book of the dead':

wiki Sogyal Rinpoche (Tibetan: བསོད་རྒྱལ་, Wylie: Bsod-rgyal) (born 1947) is a Tibetan Dzogchen Lama of the Nyingma tradition. He has been teaching for over 30 years and continues to travel widely in Europe, America, Australia and Asia. He is also the founder and spiritual director of Rigpa—an international network of over 100 Buddhist centres and groups in 23 countries around the world—and the author of the best-selling book The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, which has been printed in 30 languages and 56 countries. In addition, Rinpoche is a frequent speaker at major conferences in all areas of society, including medicine and healing, universities and educational institutions, interfaith dialogue, movements for peace and non-violence, the world of business and leadership, and the field of serving the dying and hospice care.

It is well worth looking at the work done by such monks over the last thousand years and here is a little bit on the 'rainbow bodies'

wiki: The rainbow body is said to be the physical mastery state of Dzogchen of the Nyingmapa and the Bönpo where the trikaya (Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya) is in accord and the nirmanakaya is congruent with bodymind and the integrity of the mindstream to the heartmind) is realised as Dharmakaya. The corporeal body of the realised Dzogchenpa, which is now hallowed, returns to the primordial energetic essence of the Five Pure Lights of the five elemental processes through the Bardo of Mahasamadhi or Parinirvana. This is then projected as the mindstream through the process of phowa. The realiser of Jalus resides in the timeless, eternal space that is considered a mystery.

According to Dzogchen tradition, the attainment of the Rainbow Body is the sign of complete realisation of the Dzogchen view. As Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche (2002: p. 141) states: “The realised Dzogchen practitioner, no longer deluded by apparent substantiality or dualism such as mind and matter, releases the energy of the elements that compose the physical body at the time of death."

More specifically, the rainbow body is constituted by the Five Pure Lights. When the view of Dzogchen and the integrity of the mindstream which links the Trikaya is realised prior to the death-Bardo (Skt. antarabhava), the bodymind of the Nirmanakaya (Tib. sprul sku) Dzogchenpa enters samādhi (Tib. ting nge ‘dzin)[1] and commences Phowa or the ‘transferral of consciousness’ into the constituent Five Pure Lights of the Sambhogakaya (Tib. longs sku)[2] to the Dharmakaya, sometimes leaving the non-living faecal elements of the bodymind such as hair and nails.

There have been a number of documented sightings of the Jalus process through the Bardo of death which may take a number of days to complete. The bodymind of the Nirmanakaya in samadhi, all the time decreasing its dimensionality as the constituent Five Pure Lights of the mindstream are transmuted into the 'glorious body' of Sambhogakaya.

From the case studies of those who have realised the rainbow body the practices of tregchöd and thödgal are key.

A bit of research here can help one decide the best way to die. Personally I would rather die in ER and be brought back to life immediately with a defibrilator but failing that I would like to do it right.

reve x

31-12-2011, 01:17 PM
My waves may be surfed at times, but are never truly destructive. I have been enjoying your expansive postings.

31-12-2011, 01:25 PM

ex member here!

Hi Mananaan

I was around from 92 to 97 and then again these past 3 years - could our paths have met?

31-12-2011, 02:15 PM
Sogyal is no ordinary man I assure you, anymore than Leo or Gurdjieff were. (Sogyal was like Leo active in London in 1974). This is partly due to the fact that they all have followings, but also why. The Dalai Lama let Sogyal do something extraordinary, easy to pass over in his life, but very important to the occultist and those into rainbow bodies. So read on if interested:

wiki: Born 1947 in the region of Kham by Mayum Tsering Wangmo, in Eastern Tibet, Sogyal Rinpoche was recognized as the incarnation of Lerab Lingpa Tertön Sogyal, a teacher to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, by Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö of the Rime movement. Jamyang Khyentse supervised his training and raised him as a son. When conditions deteriorated in Kham, Khyentse Rinpoche and his young disciple left for Central Tibet and Lhasa, where in 1955, for the first time, they met Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama. They then continued to India on pilgrimage, and finally settled in Gangtok at the invitation of the Chögyal, the king of Sikkim. Rinpoche attended Catholic School in Kalimpong, and then university in Delhi before coming to the west.

He was granted a place to study comparative religion at Trinity College, Cambridge as a visiting scholar. He continued to study with many masters, of all schools of Tibetan Buddhism, especially Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, and Nyoshul Khenpo Rinpoche. Trulshik Rinpoche is one of his teachers, too.

In 1973, he assisted in organizing the Dalai Lama’s first ever visit to the West, in Rome—including a visit with Pope John Paul II, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. The following year he began to teach in London, creating his first Dharma centre, called Orgyen Chöling, in north-west London in 1974.

Rinpoche soon began teaching in Paris and often translated for Dudjom Rinpoche, whom he also accompanied to the United States in 1976. In the summer of 1977, Rinpoche's London centre, known as Dzogchen Orgyen Chöling, found a home at Princess Road in Kilburn. Many great masters taught there: Dudjom Rinpoche, when he taught for a whole month in London in 1979, Sakya Trizin, Gyalwang Karmapa, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and others.

In 1979, Sogyal Rinpoche chose the name Rigpa—the innermost, essential nature of mind—for his work.

By 1980, Rinpoche was teaching in the United States, Holland and Ireland, as well as in France and the UK. Gradually, he opened centres in a number of major cities around the world. In many places, study and practice groups evolved and in each country Rigpa was established as a non-profit organization.

At Sogyal Rinpoche's and Rigpa’s request, the Dalai Lama granted the empowerment of Padmasambhava and his Eight Manifestations from the pure visions of the ‘Great Fifth’ Dalai Lama at the Pagode de Vincennes in Paris in 1982.

Now this empowerment is best explained perhaps by more quotes and links but first I must point out that the 'pure visions' of the 5the Dalai were the visions of the man who had the real 5th Dalai (Dorje Sugden) murdered with a white ceremonial scarf shoved down his throat and took his place. Our current Dalai Lama is therefore in a line from the 5th, not I would conjecture from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd who I seem to recall were given the name Dalai Lama post humously - it was the title Genghis Khan took in 1206 when he conquered Mongolia and was revived by these lamas a few hundred years later.
Padmasambhava... Means The Lotus-Born, was a sage guru from Oddiyāna who is said to have transmitted Vajrayana Buddhism to Bhutan and Tibet and neighbouring countries in the 8th century. In those lands he is better known as Guru Rinpoche ("Precious Guru") or Lopon Rinpoche, or, simply, Padum in Tibet, where followers of the Nyingma school regard him as the second Buddha. He said: "My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I consume concepts of duality as my diet. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times."

Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Devanagari: समन्तभद्र; lit. Universal Worthy), is a bodhisattva in Mahayana Buddhism associated with Buddhist practice and meditation. Together with Shakyamuni Buddha and fellow bodhisattva Manjusri he forms the Shakyamuni trinity in Buddhism. He is the patron of the Lotus Sūtra and, according to the Avataṃsaka Sūtra, made the ten great vows which are the basis of a bodhisattva. In China, Samantabhadra is associated with action, whereas the bodhisattva Mañjuśrī is associated with wisdom. In Japan this bodhisattva is often venerated by the Tendai and Shingon sects, and as the protector of the Lotus Sūtra by the Nichiren sect.

In the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, particularly the Nyingma school, Samantabhadra is considered the most primordial Buddha, akin in status to Vajradhara for the Sarma traditions. Samantabhadra appears in the Vajrayana tantric text the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra, as the Primordial Buddha, the 'embodiment' (Sanskrit: kaya) or 'field' (Sanskrit: kṣetra) of 'timeless awareness, gnosis' (Sanskrit: jñāna) awakened since before the very beginning. Therefore in Tibetan Buddhism the Nyingma, or 'Old Translation' school, the Sakya and the Bön schools view Samantabhadra as the Primordial Buddha. In the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhist Vajrayana, Samantabhadra is considered a primordial Buddha in indivisible yab-yum union with his consort Samantabhadri. However, the Kagyu and Gelug schools use Vajradhara to represent the Primordial Buddha.

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche following the Nyingmapa Dzogchen tradition qualifies the nature and essence of Samantabhadra, the Primordial Buddha, as the origin-less wellspring of the timeless and unbounded Atiyoga teachings, and honours the converse view entertained by some interested parties which hold that the Dzogchen teachings originated with either the Bonpo tradition or the Chinese monk Moheyan (1990: p.xxi):

Samantabhadra is not subject to limits of time, place, or physical conditions. Samantabhadra is not a colored being with two eyes, etc. Samantabhadra is the unity of awareness and emptiness, the unity of appearances and emptiness, the nature of mind, natural clarity with unceasing compassion - that is Samantabhadra from the very beginning.

Samantabhadra is usually presented with colour black. The Dorje Zahorma hat, that is a special form of the Dorje Zahorma hat which is particular to Chatral Rinpoches tradition, is emblazoned with an image of Samantabhadra.

'The Mirror of the Mind of Samantabhadra' (Tibetan: ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ་ཐུགས་ཀྱི་མེ་ལོང, Wylie: kun tu bzang po thugs kyi me long) is one of the Seventeen Tantras of Dzogchen Upadesha....

Sri Lankan people venerates Samantabhadra Bodhisatva as Saman (also called Sumana, Samantha, Sumana Saman, Sinhalese: සුමන සමන් ‍දෙවි). The name Saman means "the rising morning sun". God Saman is considered one of the guardian deities of the island and Buddhism. His main shrine is located in Ratnapura, where there is an annual festival held in his honor.

Saman, Samaine and Sri Lanka crop up again.

This is the world of Tantra which is of course connected to sex and the man woman mystery etc.

This is from a site on the 'Revelations of the Mind of Samantabhadra '
which may be unintelligible in its translation but shows some of the things going on in there to us. Each 'era' gives the duration in magical years for 20,000 tantras as they are called and their nature - for example

sambhoga-kaya’s buddha-field - 61 years -
the knowing of original wakefulness is a vivid presence

upon Amolika rock on the plateau of the 33 Gods - 24 years - ? (they dont know)

god-realm at the summit of existence - ? years - the manner of entrusting the symbolic meaning, to the teaching-guardianess Black Wrathful Mother

abode of Radiant Light [2nd level of 3rd dhyana-abode] - ? years -
the liberating of the bodily forms of the gods

human - ? years- condensed meaning, because of the weighty nature of the teachings, to Pra-he[la]-vajra

{N.B.: the #s of "magical years" may derive from the #s of petals of cakra-s in the subtle body**

p. 214 entrustments of texts, by Pra-he[la]-

The 8 emanations or manifestations that Sogyal was told to 'empower' in 1982by our current Dalai Lama are obviously also important:

Guru Orgyen Dorje Chang (Wylie: gu ru U-rgyan rDo-rje ‘chang, Sanskrit: Guru Uddiyana Vajradhara) The vajra-holder (Skt. Vajradhara), shown dark blue in color in the attire of the Sambhogakaya. Depicted in union with consort. (See image + description)
Guru Shakya Senge (Wylie: shAkya seng-ge, Skrt: Guru Śākyasimha) of Bodh Gaya, Lion of the Sakyas, who learns the Tantric practices of the eight Vidyadharas. He is shown as a fully ordained Buddhist monk. (See image)
Guru Pema Gyalpo (Wylie: gu ru pad ma rgyal-po, Skrt: Guru Padmarāja) of Uddiyana, the Lotus Prince, king of the Tripitaka (the Three Collections of Scripture). He is shown looking like a young crowned prince or king. (See image + description)
Guru Pema Jungne (Wylie: pad ma ‘byung-gnas, Skrt: Guru Padmakara) Lotus-arisen, the Saviour who teaches the Dharma to the people. He is shown sitting on a lotus, dressed in the three robes of a monk, under which he wears a blue shirt, pants and heavy Tibetan boots, as protection against the cold. He holds the diamond-scepter of compassionate love in his right hand and the yogi's skull-bowl of clear wisdom in his left. He has a special trident called khatvanga of a wandering Yogi, and wears on his head a Nepalese cloth crown, stylistically designed to remind one of the shape of a lotus flower. Thus he is represented as he must have appeared in Tibet. (See image + description)
Guru Loden Chokse (Wylie: gu ru blo ldan mchog sred; Skrt: Guru Mativat Vararuci[22]) of Kashmir, the Intelligent Youth, the one who gathers the knowledge of all worlds. He is shown in princely clothes, beating a hand-drum and holding a skull-bowl. (See image + description)
Guru Nyima Ozer (Wylie: gu ru nyi-ma ‘od-zer, Skrt: Guru Suryabhasa or Sūryaraśmi[22]), the Sunray Yogi, who illuminates the darkness of the mind through the insight of Dzogchen. He is shown as a naked yogi dressed only in a loin-cloth and holding a Khatvanga which points towards the sun. (See image + description)
Guru Dorje Drolo, (Wylie: gu ru rDo-rje gro-lod, Skrt: Guru Vajra ?) the fierce manifestation of Vajrakilaya (wrathful Vajrasattva) known as "Diamond Guts", the comforter of all, imprinting the elements with Wisdom-Treasure. (See image + description)
Guru Senge Dradog (Wylie: gu ru seng-ge sgra-sgrogs, Skrt: Guru Simhanāda[22]) of Nalanda University, the Lion of Debate, promulgator of the Dharma throughout the six realms of sentient beings. He is shown in a very fierce form, dark blue and imitative of the powerful Bodhisattva Vajrapani, holding a thunderbolt scepter in one hand and a scorpion in the other. (See image)
Padmasambhava's various Sanskrit names are preserved in mantras such as those found in the Yang gsang rig 'dzin youngs rdzogs kyi blama guru mtshan brgyad bye brag du sgrub pa ye shes bdud rtsi'i sbrang char zhe bya ba[22]

I know it is hard going but the occult is mostly

reve x

31-12-2011, 02:56 PM

Unlikely. I faded from view around 3 years ago. Was never in London either.

31-12-2011, 07:25 PM
It happens sometimes you move centre. Leo reckoned the thinking centre was 32,000 slower than the moving centre which was 32,000 behind the emotional, then instinctive and finally the super fast sexual centre. It seems a bit silly to give them speeds but in chemical and physical terms is almost feasible. So you wonder if you fancy someone long before deciding if they are armed. I dont know why this is taken to that level. There is also a 'sexual' body which must be supersonic. The thinking centre is of course the real supremo blame Beelzebub for that little slip.

But in a Tibetan master's terms this is not far away. There is a sexual body, a kundalini, tantric body. This is what these teachers are after but also where they fall into the traps of wanting something other than a good result for your life's work. I do not say you need celibacy to succeed but my father thought so. Just not to be an old fool. The school used to call Leo 'the old goat' before his little trouble there.

Look at the one whose manifestations have been summoned and his turbo charged rainbow body:

wiki: According to tradition, Padmasambhava was incarnated as an eight-year-old child appearing in a lotus blossom floating in Lake Dhanakosha, in the kingdom of Oḍḍiyāna, traditionally identified with the Swat Valley of South Asia in present-day Pakistan. His special nature was recognized by the childless local king of Oḍḍiyāna and was chosen to take over the kingdom but he left Oḍḍiyāna for Northern parts of India. In Rewalsar, known as Tso Pema in Tibetan, he secretly taught tantric teachings to Mandarava who was the local king's daughter. The king found out and tried to burn him but it is believed when the smoke cleared he was intact and in meditation. The king offered Padmasambhava his kingdom and Mandarava. He left with Mandarava and later in Maratika cave in Nepal, after practicing secret tantric consort rituals, Amitayus appeared and they both achieved immortal bodies in the form of the living rainbow body of the Great Transference (Wylie 'pho ba chen po, pronounced Phowa Chenpo) which is completely different and much rarer than a dead body dissolving into light or the more usual rainbow body of a living yet mortal human (Wylie 'ja' lus, pronounced Jalü.) as sometimes still achieved by Dzogchen practitioners of Padmasambhava's terma. So both Padmasambhava and Mandarava are still believed to be alive and active in Phowa Chenpo form by their followers. She and Padmasambhava's other main consort, Yeshe Tsogyal who was responsible for hiding his numerous terma later in Tibet became fully enlightened. Many thangkas and paintings show Padmasambhava in between them.

This is what they are after, not sex. But how sad are they. Is the old Scientlogist Vigor still around? Or Homer the Hare Krishna Leo used to like to tease about his topknot. The Sanskrit scholar who could not translate Leo's Indian phrase for 'do you want a cuppa'. Dont you want to blush sometimes? How I would love to talk to them both now about that rascal Hubbard and the remarkable 'Hare Krishna' guru known to them both.

[QUOTEAbhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (1 September 1896 – 14 November 1977) was a Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher and the founder-acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, commonly known as the "Hare Krishna Movement". His mission was to propagate Gaudiya Vaishnavism, a form of Hinduism that had been taught to him by his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, throughout the world. Born Abhay Charan De in Kolkata, he was educated at the prestigious local Scottish Church College. Before adopting the life of a pious renunciant (vanaprastha) in 1950, he was married with children and owned a small pharmaceutical business. In 1959 he took a vow of renunciation (sannyasa) and started writing commentaries on Vaishnava scriptures. In his later years, as a traveling Vaishnava monk, he became an influential communicator of Gaudiya Vaishnava theology to India and specifically to the West through his leadership of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), founded in 1966. As the founder of ISKCON, he "emerged as a major figure of the Western counterculture, initiating thousands of young Americans." Despite attacks from anti-cult groups, he received a favorable welcome from many religious scholars, such as J. Stillson Judah, Harvey Cox, Larry Shinn and Thomas Hopkins, who praised Prabhupada's translations and defended the group against distorted media images and misinterpretations. In respect to his achievements, religious leaders from other Gaudiya Vaishnava movements have also given him credit.


as most men are bad he appears rather unusual

reve x

01-01-2012, 04:47 PM
(G should apologise to our sisters for that choice of words as in Tibet's history are many nuns)

from Gurdjieff's chronology abridged by me:

The special difficulties of Gurdjieffian chronology seem likely to prevail over investigative scholarship. The very date of his birth is in dispute, although Gurdjieff himself stipulates 1866. Between then and 1912 we are chasteningly reliant on Gurdjieff's own four impressionistic accounts, which—in the nature of myth—are innocent of consistency, Aristotelian logic and chronological discipline. Notoriously problematical are 'the missing twenty years' from 1887 to 1907; the journals of the epoch's great Central Asian geographers (Sven Hedin, Sir Aurel Stein, Albert von Le Coq, Paul Pelliot and Count Kozui Otani) do not provide the collateral support for Gurdjieff's account which, here and there, might be expected. My chronology for this period is hence offered provisionally and I have not followed it slavishly in my relevant chapter, The Long Search. ...

1866 ?Jan. G. born in Cappadocian Greek quarter of Alexandropol on Russian side of Russo-Turkish border.
1870–72 Birth of G.'s only brother Dmitri Ivanovitch Gurdjieff (?1870) and eldest sister (?1871).

1873 summer G.'s father Giorgios Giorgiades, impoverished when rinderpest wipes out his large cattle herd, opens a lumber-yard.

1874–76 Birth of two further sisters. ....

1878 Giorgiades moves his family to Kars, and re-establishes his carpentry shop in the Greek quarter. Father Dean Borsh of Russian military cathedral assumes responsibility for G.'s private education, co-opting as tutors four graduates of the Theological Seminary. G. reads intensively in library of Kars military hospital.

1879–80 G. falls under moral influence of his tutor Dean Bogachevsky.

1881 G.'s eldest and favourite sister dies. G. narrowly escapes death in shooting accident on Lake Alageuz. He becomes fascinated by witnessing certain 'paranormal phenomena'.

1882 In an adolescent duel of sorts with Piotr Karpenko, G. narrowly escapes death on an artillery range.

1883 Leaving home, G. moves to Tiflis but fails to enter the Archdeacon's choir or the Georgian Theological Seminary. During breaks from casual work as a stoker for the Transcaucasian Railway Company, he makes pilgrimage on foot to Echmiadzin and studies for three months at Sanaine Monastery under Father Yevlampios. He develops close friendships with Sarkis Pogossian and Abram Yelov.

1884 G. crystallizes his motivational question as to significance of organic and human life.

1885 summer G. visits Constantinople (where he meets Ekim Bey) to study the Mevlevi and Bektashi dervishes. He returns to Alexandropol, where his parents now again live, via Hadji Bektash, Konya, and Aksehir.

1886 G. and Pogossian, digging haphazardly in the ruined city of Ani, find reference to the 'Sarmoung Brotherhood', supposedly a wisdom school founded in Babylon c. 2500 BC.

1887 As a courier of the Armenian protectionist society, the Armenakans, G. sets out with Pogossian for Kurdistan, quixotically resolved to 'find the Sarmoung'. En route however, his chance discovery near Zakho of a 'map of pre-sand Egypt' diverts him circuitously to Alexandria (where Pogossian leaves him). In Cairo, G. makes a strong bond with two elder seekers: Prince Yuri Lubovedsky and Professor Skridlov.

1888–9 G. visits Thebes with Lubovedsky; Abyssinia and the Sudan with Skridlov; and Mecca and Medina alone and in disguise. G. and Skridlov visit remains of Babylon at Nippur, Iraq. Returning to Constantinople, G. meets Vitvitskaia and escorts her to Russia.

1890–93 As a political envoy (probably of the newly constituted Armenian Social Revolutionary Party, the Dashnakzutiun) G. visits Switzerland and subsequently bases himself in Rome.

1894–5 Sultan Abdul Hamid II instigates massacre of Armenians throughout Turkey. Again centred on Alexandropol, G. is prime mover in the foundation (1895) of the 'Seekers of Truth', a heterogeneous and youthful grouping seeking traditional and esoteric knowledge.

1896 G. goes to Crete, seeking traces of the ancient 'Imastun brotherhood', but also as an agent of the Ethniki Hetairia, a Hellenist Spartacist society. The Greek population revolts (Feb.) against Turks. While in the Sfakia region, G. is shot [TS7] and evacuated, unconscious, to Jerusalem. He recuperates at Alexandropol.

1897 Accompanying the Seekers of Truth, G. sets out [M183] from Nakhichevan (1 Jan.) through Turkestan to Tabriz and Baghdad (Expedition 1). (Episode of Ekim Bey and the Persian dervish.) To facilitate wider travels in Central Asia, G. becomes a Tsarist political agent and ? establishes some connection with the Buryat Mongol Agwhan Dordjieff, a high Tibetan official. With the Seekers G. travels from Orenburg through Sverdlovsk to Siberia (Expedition 2).

1898 In New Bokhara (Easter) G. befriends Soloviev a physical and social derelict. Guided blindfold by intermediaries on a twelve-day pony-trek from Bokhara, G. and Soloviev gain access to the chief Sarmoung Monastery (purported source of G.'s profoundest insights, symbolism and Sacred Dances). Unexpectedly they find Lubovedsky already there but in failing health. To G.'s sorrow, Lubovedsky promptly leaves to end his days under spiritual supervision elsewhere. Following a period of monastic study, G. explores the Gobi (?Taklamakan) desert with Skridlov and the Seekers of Truth (Expedition 3). After Soloviev's accidental death [M165], G. returned to Keriya Oasis.

1899 G. stays in Merv. In dervish disguise he and Skridlov travel up the river Amu Darya (Oxus) into Kafiristan. (Episode of Skridlov and Father Giovanni.) G. returns to Baku and studies Persian magic. In Ashkhabad he and Vitvitskaia (only woman member of the Seekers) earn large sums with his 'Universal Traveling Workshop'.

1900 G. sets out (2 Jan.) from Chardzhou with Seekers (Expedition 4) through the Pamirs to India [M252]. (Episode of Karpenko and the ez-ezounavouron.) The Seekers then disband and separate.

1901 ? G. presented to Tsar Nicholas II (23 July) in Livadia. ? Disguised as a Transcaspian Buddhist, G. enters Upper Tibet and studies with the 'Red Hat' Lamas. ? He marries a Tibetan.

1902 Shot a second time [TS9] during a mountain clan affray, G. recovers in the Yangi Hissar oasis on the edge of the Taklamakan desert. He takes an oath to abjure hypnotism and animal magnetism except for scientific and altruistic purposes.

1903 G. returns to Tibet. Col. Francis Younghusband invades Tibet (5 Jul.) from India.

1904 British massacre Tibetans at Guru (31 Mar.) Younghusband enters Lhasa (3 Aug.). Anguished at the untimely killing of an initiated lama, G. resolves to combat the mass suggestibility and hysteria which occasion wars. Hydropsy obliges him to leave Tibet and return to his parents in Alexandropol. Having recuperated, G. sets out again (winter) for Central Asia but, near the Chiatura railway tunnel, is accidentally shot a third time [TS9] in a skirmish between Cossacks and Gourians. With difficulty he goes via Ashkabad to Yangi Hissar where he again recuperates....

1911 G. synthesizes disparate stands of accumulated knowledge into a cohesive system employing a special and at points quasi-scientific, vocabulary. On 13 Sept. he renews his oath [H11] to abjure hypnotism, etc., binding himself for twenty-one years to lead an 'artificial life'....

1912 c. New Year G. arrives in Moscow and attracts his first associates (his cousin Sergei Mercourov, Vladimir Pohl, and Rachmilievitch). ? G. marries Julia Ostrowska in St Petersburg.

... winter In St Petersburg G. informally takes his first English pupil, the musical student Paul Dukes.

Nov. 13 G. advertises his ballet, The Struggle of the Magicians, in Golos Moskvi (attracting Ouspensky's attention).

... http://www.gurdjieff.org/chronology.htm

I do not mean to beseige the reader, probably only me anyway, but want to show how Tibet fits in and how unlikely G's story is. He certainly went to Tibet when it had a fully functionuing monastery system devoted to all trying for the occasional monk to achieve a rainbow body. The others just moved along through the required magical years until that was them too. The actual knowledge of how to achieve one was always a closely guarded secret. But the human now has an extraordinary capacity and an online library taken from every temple in the world. Gurdjieff knew from Tibet that having followers was one way, with no guarantee of success and a high probability of shame. The way of the sly man.

The 'empowerment' was to ask the Ogdoad or 8 Manifestations of (Thoth/Padmin) to intervene here. The spirits must have come to the wrong temple in London that day in 1982. Sogyal has his Rigpa temple now in Caledonian Road but was then it was in Kilburn, we were in Putney, Krishna Consciousness and Scientology were near Oxford Street. I have been trying to find out from Ethra over the last decade whether she has any use for them. Other rival schools protest while we await her answer.

reve x

02-01-2012, 10:32 AM
Hi Reve:

The word Hogmonay (New Year’s Eve) comes from an unknown Norman word aguillenneuf (Oxford Concise) I will check my bigger dictionary when I uncover them. I think we can decipher the word though, some of you can correct me. Aquilla is the eagle, as is aguille and neuf is nine. A film has just come out called The Eagle of the Ninth, my treasured book as a child (I only had a few!). This massive Roman legion was lost to a man (and their camp followers, many women) when they entered Scotland, although many believe they were welcomed into a better life in the land of apples, the fortunate Isles. In which case some of us carry their genes. Hogmonay is the time of Janus the doorkeeper. It means more than Christmas up here and is not as sectarian. It is a new age that starts now we always hope. In Scotland Hogmonay has 2 more days to run.

The particular spirits that I write about started some work in the Emin but it was never completed. There are therefore quite a few unfinished graduates around now, who have long since completed their monastic service alone in their communities. But that initial inspiration has not been there for some time and they feel it. Do not despair. Our doctorates await us as do the spirits of our particular disciplines. It is the time of that sermon and lesson on talents, when we come together and say what we have done with them and what is being harvested. Magical years have been served in record time as a result. One Saturn return instead of 3.

It is predicted that certain things will get in the way of our advancement however. Vanity, pride, jealousy and the habits of a lifetime are enough. Thank heavens we were so well trained in personal involvement and how to avoid that dreadful multi-confinement when faced with our enlightenment. The old Tibetan book is often misquoted but it is a fact that when faced with the light the human instinctively turns away. After the second time they have no choice, but all the best seats have gone by then. Over the rainbow metaphorically and imaginatively obviously. Not that knowing it helps, they all know it in Tibetan monasteries. Try to grasp it in your lifetimes if you can, that is the first time. Death is the second time. And the third is the justification, a black hole erasing us and our history, everything but those light bodies strong enough to resist it. But it does not happen by just joining the Emin there is a bit of work to do on it on your own.

am I being annoying again?


02-01-2012, 09:09 PM
Hi Image, I've been away for a few days and have just seen your message now. You would have known me as Obi or Oberon, I remember meeting you a few times at Jasons flat in Muswell Hill. I was also a friend of Silver. I hope you are well, I'll try to send a more personal message to you as well.
Take care...

Thanks for responding. Have given Andrea my email address so would be good to hear from you. All the best for 2012.

02-01-2012, 09:12 PM
you guys sound brainwashed like hell

02-01-2012, 09:19 PM
you guys sound brainwashed like hell

Emin has been described as a cult by the Cult Awareness and Information Centre
The Emin Society

A highly secretive British New AGe doomsday cult formed in 1970 by an encyclopaedia salesman called Raymond Armin, who now lives in Florida. It was under an oak tree on Hampstead Heath that Armin first discovered 'The Eminent Way' which he shortened to 'Emin'. It is also know as The Foundation for Human Development and the Earth School.

There is no communal living within the cult but clandestine meetings are held about three nights a week and at weekends - there are now members in America, Australia and Israel. They claim to have over 3,000 members in Europe and the US. The British Cult Information Centre considers Emin to be one of the fastest-growing cults in this country. Armin made a brief public appearance in 1983 when David Mellor prevented Emin leasing a church hall in Putney. In an interview with the Putney And WandsworthGuardian, Armin said:

'I reckon I'm about the most brilliant man you have ever met. I must be to have all these people with university degrees following me...obsession is a weak word for it. These people would follow me around the world till I die.'
Emin followers believe that the world is about todestroy itself. The answer is to follow Armin's 'esoteric philosophy', which means accepting the mystical significance of colours and numbers, dancing ingowns, astrology, astral travel, heraldry, tarot, reincarnation and changingyour name to words like Opal or Wonderful. Ravel's Bolero is often played at meetings where Armin's latest cryptic messages from Florida are read out to members who pay about $50.00 (US) a week just to belong plus other fees and "donations."

02-01-2012, 09:21 PM
The emin cult watch, put that in a search engine. I suspect some Emin members or ex members here, are aware of these "cult allegations."

03-01-2012, 12:25 AM
Why is it that people who subscribe to a forum like this are so ready to believe everything they read on google or in the newspapers?

I thought the whole point of David Icke et al. is to get people to think for themselves, read between the lines, and not mindlessly follow what is written in the media.

No one forced me to join the Emin, and no one tried to stop me leaving. Where's the cult in that? It has its problems like every other organisation, spiritual or not. And it's fair share of nutcases and bores. Such is life. There is also some amazing work being done there by great people. But that doesn't make headlines, does it?

04-01-2012, 09:34 AM
In my opinion any group or religous sect (inc. Jesuits, Dervishes and Baptists etc) that works in the unseen worlds, the occult, and are cults by definition (look up cult in a dictionary). None of them like you leaving much as all depend on your support.

Is the Emin a 'Leo' cult? the answer is no. When Gurdjieff in his ignorance started playing with Tibetan masters he was 'inhabited'. They are the experts at this and the signs are everywhere. He became something rather different although he may not have known that himself at the time. Leo in the same way took on his master Gurdjieff after G died and also became inhabited by this thing. If you knew Leo in the early seventies you would have seen how he gradually, like Gurdjieff but without the silly moustache, began to look Tibetan and became interested in curious things. The Ipinions were classic inhabiting rituals which we did in all innocence. It took a serious holy man like my dad to notice that we did not know what we were doing.

this is the way 'empowerment' works:

wiki: The ritual for performing an empowerment can be divided into four parts:

'vase' (Sanskrit: bumpa) or water empowerment
secret or crown empowerment
knowledge-wisdom (prajna-jnana) or vajra empowerment
word or 'bell' (Sanskrit: ghanta) empowerment
The ritual is based on the coronation process of a king but in this case represents the student being empowered as the deity of the practice (i.e. a Buddha). The vase empowerment symbolizes purification or preparation and may include a vase filled with water or washing. Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche compared that to baptism. The secret or crown empowerment involves receiving a coronation or identification as that deity. The knowledge-wisdom empowerment symbolizes receiving a scepter representing the skillful means of the deity. The word or bell empowerment is receiving the wisdom of the deity....

An individual is not allowed to engage in a deity practice without the empowerment for that practice. The details of an empowerment ritual are often kept secret as are the specific rituals involved in the deity practice

This does not really tell you much but it is a secret pratcice that is to enable the Tibetan deities (some quite violent) to have a place to dwell here. The Little Ease fountain, the Ipinion bells etc should ring alarm bells.

Fortunately you are not all inhabited now. But unfortunately we do not seem to have produced a large number of 'enlightened' ones either.

So who is at the head of our cult, what deity? I wonder if any of you know or care.

I managed to pull the tree that had fallen on my car off it after our hurricanes of the last two days. The heating went down again and threatened to explode. That kind of deity!

All the best - I am told there is no reason to stay here as the Emin cannot possibly manage the work required of it but hope you all do well and open your eyes a bit more to some of the more occult matters under your noses. What a shame Orman and Ethra did not manage to engage here but I think they are just as much in the dark as the rest of the flock. No justification is possible without complete honesty, which is not possible is it?

A word of warning thiough to those who wished me to be banned and my posts excised from history. It is only by asking the kind of questions that I have and looking at the historical facts of other searchers' lives that you can walk safely in the occult. Leo could not lead you safely in it. He believed his tobacco habit was harmless but had to move continents on health grounds and died. Be safe. You can only trust yourself, and what you dedicate yourself to one day may not be what you think it is. Baby Jesus snuggling up to a lamb in a manger is not what you get, nor is the charismatic Cockney Leo.

take care

reve x

04-01-2012, 09:47 AM
The emin cult watch, put that in a search engine. I suspect some Emin members or ex members here, are aware of these "cult allegations."

hey man, thnx for looking that up, these fellers surely seem brainwashed, they dont even notice:confused:

i can already imagine what kind of cult it is, ill look up now

04-01-2012, 11:30 AM
hey man, thnx for looking that up, these fellers surely seem brainwashed, they dont even notice:confused:

i can already imagine what kind of cult it is, ill look up now

Hi hadabusa

What is your basis for believing that those of us who are part of the Emin are brainwashed?

05-01-2012, 10:58 AM
hey man, thnx for looking that up, these fellers surely seem brainwashed, they dont even notice

i can already imagine what kind of cult it is, ill look up now

Or: I'll tell myself what this group is like before knowing anything about it or having had any involvement with it, then I'll go looking for 'proof' that I'm right; find it and thereby make the whole subject safe for me.

As I've said before on here, no one chased me after I left the Emin, and overall I felt fine about leaving. But a point came when I worried that perhaps I should have been feeling more withdrawal symptoms, that perhaps I had been brainwashed without realising it and ought to seek help. So, I contacted one of these cult awareness groups and explained my situation. After some cloak-and-dagger administration, I received a phone call from their Emin 'expert'. He was a very nice chap and listened to my story. However, after about an hour, he was telling me all his problems and I in fact I ended up counselling him.

What I learned about the press and a lot of organisations interested in cults (well, and individuals too) is just how lazy they can be with their research. Many times, when I was in the Emin, I came across articles (I featured in some of them) where the journalist had simply got hold of ancient (and inaccurate) articles and simply repeated their content. I think most Emin people gave up trying to correct such stuff since the truth was always going to be less colourful than the hype.

A highly secretive British New AGe doomsday cult formed in 1970 by an encyclopaedia salesman called Raymond Armin, who now lives in Florida. It was under an oak tree on Hampstead Heath that Armin first discovered 'The Eminent Way' which he shortened to 'Emin'. It is also know as The Foundation for Human Development and the Earth School.

I'm not going to bother looking at the loaded language here, only to say that the Emin was anything but 'highly secretive'. I was not alone, I'm sure, in boring all my friends and family about it, and trying to get them to meetings.

There is no communal living within the cult but clandestine meetings are held about three nights a week and at weekends

Wonderful bit of reverse spin here. Why would there be 'communal living'? It was never suggested in the Emin. Having said that, why would that be such an evil thing, anyway? 'Clandestine meetings' - again, I spent many years in the Emin putting up posters in public, advertising meetings. And what's wrong with holding meetings at night and weekends - when else are you going to hold them, given most of your members have day jobs?

The British Cult Information Centre considers Emin to be one of the fastest-growing cults in this country.

Clearly, it wasn't. But even so, what's wrong with fast growth?

Armin made a brief public appearance in 1983 when David Mellor prevented Emin leasing a church hall in Putney.

This implies Leo was hiding from the public. Again, I brought friends and my parents to meetings held by Leo. It's also perhaps worth mentioning that David Mellor lied in public, to the press, claiming that the Emin's centre in Putney was full of beds, i.e. that the place was being used for less than wholesome purposes.

In an interview with the Putney And WandsworthGuardian, Armin said:

'I reckon I'm about the most brilliant man you have ever met. I must be to have all these people with university degrees following me...obsession is a weak word for it. These people would follow me around the world till I die.'

This may well be true. However, what seems to be lost to the writer and probably to the newspaper is that Leo might just have been intentionally provocative here, rather than putting out some lame, predictable comment about how democratic the organisation actually is. Just for the record, Leo was definitely the most brilliant man I ever met.

Emin followers believe that the world is about todestroy itself. The answer is to follow Armin's 'esoteric philosophy', which means accepting the mystical significance of colours and numbers, dancing ingowns, astrology, astral travel, heraldry, tarot, reincarnation and changingyour name to words like Opal or Wonderful. Ravel's Bolero is often played at meetings where Armin's latest cryptic messages from Florida are read out to members who pay about $50.00 (US) a week just to belong plus other fees and "donations."

I'm not going to bother taking this apart, except to say that put against an average life comprising 9-to-5, watching 'X-Factor', a couple of pints in the pub on a Friday, reading The Daily Mail and generally telling people they're brainwashed, I'd say this sounds like a lot more fun!


05-01-2012, 01:13 PM
Thanks for the replies. I came across the cult allegations on another thread and it was also brought up on this one. So posted the short article to see what Emin or ex Emin members had to say.

I am taking a neutral stance and not personally making accusations. There's always two sides sometimes more to a story.

05-01-2012, 01:15 PM
(2 people have now died in these dangerous storms and I will now have to try to do something about the root cause)

Starts by changing your name. My Dad and raymond were both the same astro sign, that name change was obvious (El). But it is the other name change that was curious to me at the time. Gurdjieff's family were killed in the various pogroms, genocides (denied by Turkey) and persecutions that the ancient Armenian people (around 1 million killed)_suffered over his lifetime. The country's symbol is Mount Ararat (still in Turkey) and it is named from two descendants of Noah. Arminiyya. It was home to Gurdjieff but as he picked up a spirit like Genghis Khan (Leo loved to say he once killed a million people before breakfast) he brought this on his family. He then took it to Europe where the Nazis were very interested in his work and Tibet.

Anyway out of this came the first name change and indeed the Emin.

JennM may never have visited Emin Towers in Hmpstead or attended an Emin green man party on a Friday night? This is what the parents would worry about. I never sought help after leaving but was directly attacked by the Armin in a scary day time vision and dreams. Now it is buffetting my house trying to blow it down but I have a lurid imagination. The Emin was ok as a cult goes but no Sunday Sxchool that it likes to portray. And some of the people you would not want in your home especially if you had children. Also it has absolutely no conscience, or has it Ethra?

I think it needs help with removing the original Armin as does Leo.

reve x

05-01-2012, 08:57 PM
(Hi Eternal!)

Just to test those who tune in a bit of Shambala:

G ‘discovered’ the Sarmaung Brotherhood (he would have it via a tablet he found near Babylon) and claims he studied at it. The nearest to this is the Surmang Monastery in Tibet which is near Kham where Sogyal Rinpoche derives. Trungpa Rinpoche (some think he was G himself) , Surmang’s young abbot who came west, crashed his sports car into a joke shop in Dumfries Scotland, became an alcoholic, had many scandals regarding sex (see wiki) with students etc and died possible from the effects of the car accident many years before but not helped by liver cirrhosis, diabetes and £40,000 worth of cocaine a year. He came from Kham too (Khem is Egypt) and had the great ‘Sambhala Vision‘. This is now a large sect he started but Shambala is a ‘mythical‘ kingdom said to be in Tibet. In fact it is in dreamworld and I have written extensively about it here

Wiki says

Sambhala (this is the form found in the earliest Sanskrit manuscripts of Kalacakra texts; the Tibetans usually transliterated this as "Shambhala"; Tib. bde 'byung) is a Sanskrit term of uncertain derivation. Commonly it is understood to be a "place of peace/tranquility/happiness". Shakyamuni Buddha is said to have taught the Kalachakra tantra on request of King Dawa Sangpo of Shambhala; the teachings are also said to be preserved there. Shambhala is believed to be a society where all the inhabitants are enlightened, actually a Buddhist Pure Land, centered by a capital city called Kalapa.[4][5][6]
The Buddhist myth of Shambhala is adaptation of the earlier Hindu myth of Kalki of Sambhala found in the Mahabharata and the Puranas. The Buddhist version may be a mythologization of an actual culture, whose geographical location can be found either in Central or Far Eastern Asia (China).
Shambhala is ruled over by a line of Kings of Shambhala known as Kalki Kings (Tib. Rigden), monarchs who uphold the integrity of the Kalachakra tantra. The Kalachakra prophesies that when the world declines into war and greed, and all is lost, the 25th Kalki king will emerge from Shambhala with a huge army to vanquish "Dark Forces" and usher in a worldwide Golden Age. Using calculations from the Kalachakra Tantra, scholars such as Alex Berzin put this date at 2424 AD.[7]
Manjushri Yashas (Tib. Rigdan Tagpa) is said to have been born in 159 BC and ruled over a kingdom of 300,510 followers of the Mlechha (Yavana or "western") religion, some of whom worshiped the sun. He is said to have expelled all the heretics from his dominions but later, after hearing their petitions, allowed them to return. For their benefit, and the benefit of all living beings, he explained the Kalachakra teachings. In 59 BC he abdicated his throne to his son, Puṇdaŕika, and died soon afterwards, entering the Sambhoga-káya of Buddhahood.[8]
As with many concepts in the Kalachakra Tantra, the idea of Shambhala is said to have "outer", "inner", and "alternative" meanings. The outer meaning understands Shambhala to exist as a physical place, although only individuals with the appropriate karma can reach it and experience it as such. As the 14th Dalai Lama noted during the 1985 Kalachakra initiation in Bodhgaya, Shambhala is not an ordinary country:
Although those with special affiliation may actually be able to go there through their karmic connection, nevertheless it is not a physical place that we can actually find. We can only say that it is a pure land, a pure land in the human realm. And unless one has the merit and the actual karmic association, one cannot actually arrive there.
There are various ideas about where this society is located, but it is often placed in central Asia, north or west of Tibet. Ancient Zhang Zhung texts identify Shambhala with the Sutlej Valley in punjab. Mongolians identify Shambala with certain valleys of southern Siberia. In Altai folklore Mount Belukha is believed to be the gateway to Shambhala.[1]. Modern Buddhist scholars seem to now conclude that Shamballa is located in the higher reaches of the Himalayas in what is now called the Dhauladhar mountains around Mcleodganj. The current Dalai Lama manages the Tibetan government in exile from Mcleodganj.
The inner and alternative meanings refer to more subtle understandings of what Shambhala represents in terms of one's own body and mind (inner), and the meditation practice (alternative). These two types of symbolic explanations are generally passed on orally from teacher to student.
The first Kalachakra masters of the tradition disguised themselves with pseudonyms, so the Indian oral traditions recorded by the Tibetans contain a mass of contradictions with regard to chronology.

I am sorry you have to wade through the confusions but at least you have avoided a dangerous trek over the Gobi Desert. Shangri la etc it is also said to have sparked G’s quest for it:

The concept of Shangri-La, as first described in James Hilton's 1933 novel Lost Horizon, is claimed to have been inspired by the Shambhala myth (as well as then-current National Geographic articles on Eastern Tibet).
Shambala appears in several science fiction stories of the 1930s.
During the 19th century, Theosophical Society founder HP Blavatsky alluded to the Shambhala myth, giving it currency for Western occult enthusiasts. Madame Blavatsky, who claimed to be in contact with a Great White Lodge of Himalayan Adepts, mentions Shambhala in several places without giving it especially great emphasis. (The Mahatmas, we are told, are also active around Shigatse and Luxor.)
Later esoteric writers further emphasized and elaborated on the concept of a hidden land inhabited by a hidden mystic brotherhood whose members labor for the good of humanity. Alice A. Bailey claims Shamballa (her spelling) is an extra-dimensional or spiritual reality on the etheric plane, a spiritual centre where the governing deity of Earth, Sanat Kumara, dwells as the highest Avatar of the Planetary Logos of Earth, and is said to be an expression of the Will of God.[11] Nicholas and Helena Roerich led a 1924-1928 expedition aimed at Shambhala.[12]
Inspired by Theosophical lore and several visiting Mongol lamas, Gleb Bokii, the chief Bolshevik cryptographer and one of the bosses of the Soviet secret police, along with his writer friend Alexander Barchenko, embarked on a quest for Shambhala, in an attempt to merge Kalachakra-tantra and ideas of Communism in the 1920s. They contemplated a special expedition to Inner Asia to retrieve the wisdom of Shambhala - the project fell through as a result of intrigues within the Soviet intelligence service, as well as rival efforts of the Soviet Foreign Commissariat that sent its own expedition to Tibet in 1924.
Among other things, in a secret laboratory affiliated with the secret police, Bokii and Barchenko also experimented with Buddhist spiritual techniques, trying to find a key to engineer perfect communist human beings[13] Similarly, Heinrich Himmler and Rudolf Hess sent a German expedition to Tibet in 1930, and then again in 1934-35, and in 1938-39.[14] Some later occultists, noting the Nazi link, view Shambhala (or the closely related underground realm of Aghartha) as a source of negative manipulation by an evil (or amoral) conspiracy.
Chögyam Trungpa, a Tibetan Buddhist lama, used the "Shambhala" name for certain of his teachings, practices, and organizations (e.g. Shambhala Training, Shambhala International, Shambhala Publications), referring to the root of human goodness and aspiration. In Trungpa's view, Shambhala has its own independent basis in human wisdom that does not belong to East or West, or to any one culture or religion

You can make your own minds up about that.

James George asked Trungpa about Shambala:

It was, I think, during that visit in the fall of 1968 that Trungpa began to speak a little about Shambhala and Gesar of Ling and I, as I've written, asked him to describe what he was able to tell me about Shambhala. He pulled out his mirror - a metal disk mirror that he wore on a cord around his neck - and started to look into it with deep concentration and describe Shambhala, just as if he was looking out the window. It was very vivid and it got me researching Shambhala in a more serious way…

Did anyone try that mirror exercise I mentioned?

The Gurtdjieff legacy Org state:

In the ruins of Ani, the ancient Armenian capital, Gurdjieff and his friends discovered correspondence that spoke of an esoteric brotherhood called Sarmoung. The brotherhood had existed in Babylon in 2,500 B.C., and subsequently migrated northward to the Izrumim Valley. Some believe the Sarmoung to have been a sixth or seventh century Aisorian school located between Urmia and Kurdistan. There is also in Tibet a group of monasteries known as Surmang. The tenth Trungpa Tulku, their supreme abbot, died in 1938. Tibetans believe he reincarnated as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, the eleventh Trungpa Tulku, who came to America in 1970 and often spoke of Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff certainly did travel to Tibet and speaks about his experiences there. See Voices in the Dark.

The Bardic press say:

Surmang came to the attention of the public as the monastery Chögyam Trungpa was abbot of before he was forced to flee Tibet due to Chinese invasion. Many people over the years familiar with the teachings of both Gurdjieff and Trungpa have wondered about the possible connection, but as yet no one has actually explored it. To my pleasant surprise, when I began research in this direction, I did indeed find supportive evidence.

What I am trying top find is what spirit or deity is behind this. The only person angry with our night school is an expelled student. All theses characters I have written about have tried to become the school itself (Sogyal’s Rigpa and The Emin and The Seekers for Truth being examples. I did say that not all ymns are good, but the bad ones do not go to school which is a sanctuary as much as anything.

Anyway to cut a long story short the deity behind this little windy protest is a bit bigger than his incarnations. The dragon is his symbol and he is at times quite violent. The Chinese for example are terrified of waking him and will not disturb his incarnation's tomb. Genghis is just another incarnation, the First Dalai Lama. Tibet was always the holy land for China and Mongolia. But all they were looking for was a place like the Isles. They have seen it in their mirrors as have I. Snowy at times and mountainous in places. But it is not in Tibet. The First Emperor should not be so upset - it is just as accessible from Tibet and China as here in Scotland. But just as difficult to access too. He has been very hard on Tibet at times and on his people. And he is angelic in origin (ie expelled). I would not get involved if I was not being blown about by him. If he wants to come to school he should ask nicely.

I know I have lost most of you but was only really writing to two of you and for the entertainment of others who might be interested, certainly not to wind up the storm god. Calm down

reve x

06-01-2012, 10:21 AM
Although no one here is with me on this I am continuing. Leo picked up a Tibetan (originally Egyptian) spirit from Gurdjieff and it still dominates the Emin.

I have mentioned before Dorje Shugden (murdered by the 5th Dalai Lama and the protector spirit of Dharma. The current dalai lama has banned his practice saying that those who call for Dorje Shugnden will cause the death of the Dalai Lama. Serious stuff. One of the main centres practising this is now in Scotland by the way.

Dorje Shugden (Tibetan: རྡོ་རྗེ་ཤུགས་ལྡན, Wylie: rdo-rje shugs-ldan), "Vajra Possessing Strength", or Dolgyal Shugden (Tibetan: དོལ་རྒྱལ་ཤུགས་ལྡན, Wylie: dol rgyal shugs ldan), "Shugden, King of Dhol" is a deity in Tibetan Buddhism, especially its Gelug school, who is regarded as a Dharma Protector or "guardian angel." The practice of Dharma Protectors is central to most religious Tibetans and practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism.

Dorje Shugden is regarded as the incarnation of Gelugpa Lama Dragpa Gyaltsen of Drepung Monastery, a contemporary of the Fifth Dalai Lama. Yet, Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature has been debated since his appearance in the 17th century. With the current Dalai Lama's growing public opposition and subsequent "explicit ban" of the practice, this debate has escalated into what is known as the Dorje Shugden controversy.

Bear in mind that the Dalai Lama belongs to the Shugden sect. I have reduced this article on wiki about the cotroversy as much as I can but the interested student needs to know what the war (lamas have been killed over this) is about. I wish absolutely no harm to our beloved Dalai Lama but at the root of this is the Shambala or School.

The practice of Dorje Shugden (i.e. different forms of worship and specific meditation techniques) began at the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama Lobsang Gyatso (1617–1682 AD). Those who have followed the practice of Dorje Shugden most recently in the 20th and 21st centuries include the majority of the most famous Gelug teachers, including Pabongka Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche (senior tutor of the current, 14th Dalai Lama), Trijang Rinpoche .....

Trijang Rinpoche, the root Guru of the 14th Dalai Lama, introduced the Dorje Shugden practice to the Dalai Lama in 1959 prior to the Chinese takeover. The Dalai Lama carried out the practice in private as well as encouraging it in Gelug monasteries. Some twenty years later, the Dalai Lama got involved in a "bitter dispute" with his teacher by stating that the practice is in conflict with the state protector Pehar and with the main protective goddess of the Gelug tradition and the Tibetan people, Palden Lhamo. He also stated that the practice was in conflict with his eclectic religious approach as well as his political responsibilities.

In 1976, after the publication of Zemey Rinpoche's The Yellow Book—a text which contained tales of Dorje Shugden punishing those who do not follow the lineage of the Gelugpa sect exclusively and instead also listen to Nyingma teachings—the Dalai Lama, a Gelugpa himself, began to speak out against the use of the deity as an institutional protector. He stated that individuals should decide for themselves if they wanted to practice it privately. From March 1996 onwards, the Dalai Lama decided to move more forcefully on this issue, which "is to be seen in connection with his interest in finding common ground in the main schools of Tibetan Buddhism so as to overcome precisely those exclusivist tendencies that Shugden is said to protect." By doing this, he responded "to growing pressure - particularly from other schools of Tibetan Buddhism such as the Nyingmapa, who threatened withdrawal of their support in the Exiled Government project." The Dalai Lama stated during a Buddhist Tantric initiation that Shugden was 'an evil spirit' whose actions were detrimental to the 'cause of Tibet'. The Dalai Lama concluded that henceforth he would not give Tantric initiations to worshippers of Shugden, since "the unbridgeable divergence of their respective positions would inevitably undermine the sacred guru-student relationship, and thus compromise his role as a teacher (and by extension his health)." This introduces a contradiction on the Dalai Lama's part, as von Brück explains:

Many of the present Lamas of the Gelukpa tradition have received their teachings from Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche. In those cases where he is the 'root Lama' (rtsa ba'i bla ma) who has handed down all three aspects of the tradition (oral transmission of texts, commentaries, the empowerments), the relationship to him is absolutely binding. This is an essential part of Vajrayana practice. Otherwise, according to Tantric tradition he might be regarded as a person who has broken the Tantric vow (dam-nyams) and this would concern the Dalai Lama himself as having been initiated by Shugden practice.

...“ 1.The Dalai Lama identifies Dorje Shugden as a "spirit", and claims that the tradition of propitiation associated with Shugden elevates this spirit to being equal or superior to the Buddha. He states that encouraging the worship of Dorje Shugden could contribute to reducing Tibetan Buddhism to a form of superstitious spirit worship.
2.The Dalai Lama states that there is an "acknowledged link" between worship of Dorje Shugden and sectarianism between the various Tibetan Buddhist schools. The Dalai Lama believes non-sectarianism is "his most important commitment", and that the worship of Dorje Shugden may be a barrier to this commitment to non-sectarianism.
3.The Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden has a long history of antagonistic attitude to the Dalai Lamas and the Tibetan Government they have headed since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama. He identifies the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas as having specifically spoken out against Dorje Shugden as a threat "to the welfare of beings in general and the Tibetan government headed by the Dalai Lamas in particular". He states that in light of the current difficult situation endured by the Tibetan people, it is particularly important to resist the worship of Dorje Shugden as a potentially divisive practice. ”

The Dalai Lama stated conclusively, "I have explained the reasons why I am against the veneration of Shugden and given my sources in a very detailed manner."... His Holiness has made clear, is a matter for the individual. However, since he personally feels strongly about how negative this practice is, he has requested those who continue to propitiate Dolgyal not to attend his formal religious teachings, which traditionally require the establishment of a teacher-disciple relationship.”

Replies from Shugden practitioners... 1.The practice of Dorje Shugden is not spirit worship because Dorje Shugden is viewed as the embodiment of Manjushri, the Buddha of Wisdom and because Dorje Shugden practitioners practice the complete Dharma of Buddha Shakyamuni. Moreover, if the Dalai Lama's reason were true, it would mean that the teachings he is giving himself are non-Buddhist as many of these come from his teachers who were faithful Dorje Shugden practitioners.
2.There is no evidence to support the claim that they are promoting sectarianism. All they are requesting is the freedom to practice the tradition without being ostracized. For example, regarding the Dalai Lama's public teachings, even "declared non-Buddhists are permitted to attend even his most esoteric Buddhist rituals," but Buddhist Dorje Shugden practitioners are excluded.
3.If another political leader were to say someone's spiritual practice was affecting the government headed by that leader and so should be stopped, this would be considered dictatorial and unacceptable. In the same way, it is not correct to say that those who pray to Dorje Shugden for the protection of their Dharma realizations in any way is detrimental to the government headed by the Dalai Lama.

Pro-Dorje Shugden Lamas such as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso have asked the Dalai Lama to present valid reasons supporting his claims and, in the absence of any response, have continued to engage in the practice. They continue to rely on teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche, who taught that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. Trijang Rinpoche, the junior tutor and "root guru" of the current Dalai Lama, is seen by the FPMT and others as "One of the foremost Tibetan Buddhist masters of our time". Remarking on this debate in his text on Dorje Shugden Trijang Rinpoche stated:

Yet all this talk is nothing but babbling speculation. Why? Because this great guardian of the teachings is well known to be the precious supreme emanation from Drepung monastery's upper house, Dragpa Gyaltsen, arising in a wrathful aspect. The proof is unmistaken. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth; this is proven by valid scriptural quotation and reasoning. These great beings, from a definitive point of view, were already fully enlightened, and even to common appearances, every one of them was a holy being that attained high states of realization. What worse karma could there be than denying this and asserting that he was born in the preta (spirit) realm?[

The controversy surfaced within the Tibetan exile community during the 1970s. In 1973, Zemey Rinpoche published the Yellow Book, which included cautionary tales passed down by Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche of 23 members of the Gelugpa sect who also practiced Nyingma teachings and were supposedly "killed" by Shugden.

The Yellow Book (so called because of the color of its cover) was actually entitled Thunder of the Stirring Black Cloud: The Oral Transmission of the Intelligent Father. It was written by Dzeme Tulku Lobsang Palden (1927–1996) of Ganden Shartse College and published in 1974 by Chophel Legden in Delhi. This book claims to be a record of stories told to the Dzeme Rinpoche by his guru, Trijang Rinpoche, about how Dorje Shugden punished various Geluk and Nyingma lamas and others who "corrupted the pure Geluk teachings," mainly by studying Nyingma teachings. According to Mumford, Dorje Shugden is "extremely popular, but held in awe and feared among Tibetans because he is highly punitive."

Georges Dreyfus remarks that the sectarian elements of the Yellow Book were not unusual and do not "justify or explain the Dalai Lama's strong reaction." Instead, he traces back the conflict more on the exclusive/inclusive approach and maintain that to understand the Dalai Lama's point of view one has to consider the complex ritual basis for the institution of the Dalai Lamas, which was developed by the Great Fifth ...'If any among you here are determined to continue propitiating Dolgyal, it would be better for you to stay away from this empowerment, get up and leave this place. It is improper for you to continue to sit here. It will not benefit you. On the contrary it will have the effect of reducing the life span of Gyalwa Rinpoche [the Dalai Lama], which is not good. However, if there are any among you who hope that Gyalwa Rinpoche will soon die, then you can stay.'

In remarks to members of the Cholsum Congress on March 4, 1996, the Dalai Lama expressed satisfaction that the Congress had passed a resolution addressing the worship of Dorje Shugden, implying that Tibetan Buddhists ignoring his restrictions might hasten his own death, since "then there would not be any point in my continuing to live silently as a disappointed man." The Dalai Lama's official position is that:

...Although the TGIE said that individuals must be free "to decide as they like," it asked that monks in the refugee community sign an agreement in support of the ban, in particular requesting the names of any monks at Sera monastery who continued to worship Dorje Shugden. According to Chandler, "Individual monks are required to render fingerprints and signatures that demonstrate their pledge to uphold the Dalai Lama's position." House to house searches were conducted by the TGIE, "demanding that people sign a declaration" that they had abandoned the practice. The TGIE passed a resolution forbidding governmental and monastic institutions from propitiating Dorje Shugden:....Previously confined primarily to the Tibetan exile community, the dispute over Dorje Shugden developed international dimensions that same year, when the British-based New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) began to publicly oppose the Dalai Lama's position. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition, was a devotee of Shugden, and the nephew of a man who had previously served as a medium for Shugden in Tibetan refugee communities. Unlike other Gelug teachers, some of whom privately worshiped Shugden but did not teach the practice to their Western students, Gyatso made Shugden practices central to the teachings he imparted to non-Tibetan students in England and abroad.

When the Dalai Lama visited England later in the summer of 1996, members of the New Kadampa tradition staged pickets outside venues where the Dalai Lama was speaking, holding placards accusing the Dalai Lama of repressing religious freedom. At the time, the NKT was the largest Buddhist organization in the United Kingdom. Gyatso also founded the Shugden Supporters Community (SSC), which distributed press releases to news outlets covering the Dalai Lama's trip to England. The SSC also initiated a letter-writing campaign to petition the British Home Secretary to revoke the Dalai Lama's visa. In August 1996, Sera Je monastery in India formally expelled Kelsang Gyatso, citing his opposition to the Dalai Lama.

...The alleged abuses included searches of the homes and temples of Shugden devotees, and the destruction of images of Dorje Shugden. In 1996, the TGIE began a campaign to "subdue Dorje Shugden propitiation amongst government employees and Gelug monasteries." Speaking to the press in England, the SSC therefore stated that Shugden worshippers had been dismissed from their jobs and expelled from monasteries.

A Swiss TV documentary made in 1997 paints an even grimmer picture. The documentary shows evidence of violence and even death threats towards Dorje Shugden practitioners with wanted posters of Dorje Shugden adherents being posted in Dharamsala, encouraging violence towards practitioners. After protests from viewers and especially the Tibetan exile community in Switzerland, the channel broadcast another documentary in which it painted a more balanced picture, retracting some of the statements and impressions left by the first documentary (e.g. the existence of wanted posters).

According to Sara Chamberlain in the New Internationalist, in 1996 the Dalai Lama announced that worship of Dorje Shugden was banned and explained that the Tibetan state oracle, Nechung, had advised him that the deity was a threat to his personal safety and the future of Tibet....Thus, the belief that Dorje Shugden is a threat to the Dalai Lama and to Tibet is directly attributable to an oracle in a trance.

Yet the 14th Dalai Lama has gone on record saying that oracles have "nothing to do with Buddhism...they should be looked upon as a manifestation of popular superstition." He was also quoted in 1971 saying:

This has nothing to do with Buddhism. The oracles are absolutely without importance. They are only small tree-spirits. They do not belong to the three treasures of Buddhism. Relations with them are of no help for our next incarnation. They should be looked upon as manifestations of popular superstition which is deleterious to the health of human beings.[

The Nechung oracle has a history of false prophecies, including the repeated prophecy that Tibet would gain independence within a few years and also contributed toward the bungling surrounding the recognition of the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama.

The Nechung oracle is not the only means by which the Dalai Lama makes his decisions. He openly admits that he uses dough-balls, dice and dreams to help make important decisions. He is also quoted as saying:

I conducted a dough-ball examination and dice divination, which were so convincing that since 1975 I have completely stopped this practice of Dorje Shugden. I have not even had a portentous dream to make me wonder if the deity is vexed. (Reve: dreams would tell you if you had them!)

... 2008-presentThe Dalai Lama has recently stated: "I have meditated and considered (my decision to put aside the Shugden) at length in my soul and spirit before coming to the right decision” and continued: "People have killed, lied, fought each other and set things alight in the name of this deity. These monks must be expelled from all monasteries. If they are not happy, you can tell them that the Dalai Lama himself asked that this be done, and it is very urgent", and "Recently monasteries have fearlessly expelled Shugden monks where needed. I fully support their actions. I praise them. If monasteries find taking action hard, tell them the Dalai Lama is responsible for this."

Critics of the ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden say that it has caused a large rift in the Tibetan community and is increasing disharmony in the Tibetan diaspora.

...The TGIE is also accused of labeling Shugden supporters as "terrorists," as reported by Al Jazeera: "In the Tibetan refugee camps, Shugden worshippers have been turned away from jobs, shops and schools. Posters with the message 'no Shugden followers allowed' cover hospital and shop fronts."

Because of perceived religious discrimination, the founder of Kundeling Monastery, Lobsang Yeshe, who lives in South India, has filed a complaint against the Dalai Lama at the Indian High Court on the grounds of religious persecution. The prosecuting lawyer, Shree Sanjay Jain, argues that when the Dalai Lama excommunicates Dorje Shugden worshippers from Buddhist society, "then it is discrimination of the worst kind."

The TGIE accuses Lobsang Yeshe of being paid by the Chinese and state that he has visited China at least twice. He however denies working for the Chinese, but does confirm that he has Chinese friends and he praises the Chinese "for what they are doing in Tibet," claiming that if Tibetans who followed Dorje Shugden had to live under the Dalai Lama in Tibet, they "would have possibly been crucified."

Since the monks who practice relying upon Dorje Shugden were expelled from Ganden and Sera monasteries in 2008, they have been constructing new premises near these monasteries, called Shar Gaden Monastery and Serpom Norling Monastery...Three police officers and more than 30 persons were injured in stone pelting incident in Lama camp of Tibetan settlement, Mundgod on Sunday morning. More than 2000 Lamas including 200 women who are said to be the followers of Dalai Lama took out procession under the leadership of Prema Tsering and tried to destroy Shugden temple and started pelting stones on Shugden devotees. Police personnel resorted to lathi charge and later bursted teargass shells.

On July 17, 2008, a large mob of Dalai Lama supporters, who had been attending one of the Dalai Lama's teachings at the Radio City Music Hall in New York, clashed with Shugden protestors after the event, spitting, screaming, and throwing money at them, indicating that they believed that the Shugden protestors were paid by the Chinese government. ...Jamphel Yeshe, the President of the Dorje Shugden Society, stated that information about he and his family were posted on "wanted posters" in Tibetan communities in India and Nepal.

Wanted posters described people believed to be Shugden leaders as the "top ten enemies of the state". The posters were put up in monasteries, settlements and in Dharamsala by the TGIE. In Clementown, India, "the house of a family of Shugden worshippers was stoned and then firebombed."


Anyone still here?

We are just a school, not warriors. Protecting the Dharma does not mean killing non believers but does mean excluding evil ymns at times. they do not like it. The Dalai lama is welcome to return and knows where to find us but prefers to eat chicken to avoid dreams that might lead him that way. If he did Tibet would be his home or Scotland and we would all be happy.

Does it tie in with the Emin? Onlky indirectly perhaps as most Emins do not want anything to do with Dharma either, but some do.

A great friend (good friends are often teachers) just died. He was a sixties 'hippy' friend who learned Berber magic in Morocco many years ago and inspired me to look up Gurdjieff long before I met Leo. His children were the same age and sex as ours who were safe in his house. He took me in when homeless. I mention him here and assure him of a place in my heart and school. Graham Morris RIP

reve x

06-01-2012, 12:34 PM
Thanks for the replies. I came across the cult allegations on another thread and it was also brought up on this one. So posted the short article to see what Emin or ex Emin members had to say.

I am taking a neutral stance and not personally making accusations. There's always two sides sometimes more to a story.

I can't add anything to Jennm's post above, it says it all way better than I could have (I would have probably waffled on and on...:) ).

I would just say that if you do a search for The Emin in google the very first link that comes up is the Emin website which gives an overview of the Emin philosophy. If you scroll down to the bottom and click on the coloured dots you will see plenty of information, particularly the blue dot.

You could also do a search for The Centre Barnet which will take you to the London Emin centre which shows you where it is and again outlines some of the things that are done there.

Not really very good at being a secret cult, are we?


06-01-2012, 02:51 PM
Why does Ethra give Emin money to the Democrats? Over $7000 last election I believe and similar before (look at Florida State Website). Are we political now? But not a penny to the abused child or the many women coerced to sleep with their ushers and too embarrassed to tell now.

Hundreds of Emins read this thread but if they dare to respond Dreadwear asks if their paths crossed so they can put their names on the list. Why?

Why did Jenn M really contact the Cult Help group? It is not a normal reaction for someone retiring from teaching in a group and tired, or moving abroad is it?

Why can Dreadwear and JennM not respond about the child who was abused but leap to respond to any outsiders asking very justified questions?

Why did Leo steal all Gurdjieff's work and declare it his own and ban discussion or reading of the original material?

Where is Ethra? is she still alive? Is she perhaps fundraising for the Democrats again and too busy to respond to me (for the last ten years). Has she forgotten the thousands of pounds I raised for her?

There is a lot of occult knowledge here that took a lifetime to collect but it is not allowed to be discussed. Why and who decided that?

Good for Eternal Spirit and Hadabusa. The Emin is not all evil but needs to put these matters right fast or it will be.

reve x

06-01-2012, 04:28 PM
Just a couple of things I would like to put straight.

No one in the Emin has any form of control over anyone else. The Emin is not affiliated to any political party or to any religious organisation at all. What individual people who are also members of the Emin do is their own private and personal choice. If I choose to vote for Labour, Conservatives or for the Green party or indeed choose not to vote at all, that is my business and mine alone and has nothing to do with my development journey. (Well, how could it? Politics and spirituality somehow don’t seem to mix very well :D )

In the 20 years of being around the Emin (but not always a full member), I have never heard of child abuse so cannot comment on this.

I haven’t asked for anyone’s names to put onto any list. Nor will I. So please do feel free to post here, I don’t do harassment or lovebombing :p

I have read and continue to reread In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky which is about the teachings of G.I.Gurdjieff – Leo recommended it and I am very glad he did. It is a fantastic and revelatory book. Gurdjieff crops up a lot in our conversations and many Emin members have read none, some or all books by Gurdjieff or people who studied his teachings. I haven’t, but simply because some are far too deep for me and I just haven’t gotten round to reading others – I have to say, as far as I am aware nothing has been banned. I can’t imagine anyone in the Emin even trying to ban something.

The Emin is an open book. It is a bunch of like-minded people who come together to discover the ways and means of giving their spiritual life more acknowledgement and freedom in a world that seems to have mostly decided that spirituality is not something to bother with.

I came to this board of my own accord, as a free human being who happens to have found the Emin to be something that my life wants to be a part of. I have no intention of persuading, enticing or luring anyone else to even come and see for themselves. I have no need to do that. I originally came to wave hello to carlperkins and found that others also came to say hello. And conversations ensued.

I hope this does clarify things, but as I said in a previous post, there is nothing hidden, find out for yourself what the Emin means if you really are interested. Just to say, though, that all that is written on the internet isn’t necessarily so.


06-01-2012, 04:35 PM
My middle name again. Only $6,050 altogether for Hilary and Barack the site says. I did a calculation and worked out that in today's money our little family unit paid around $100,000 in all to the Emin. But I would do it again!

Ethra I have been asked to invite you to our school and would be very pleased if you could consider this invitation. I apologise for any distress caused.

We are hoping Kundun will start coming again!

reve x

06-01-2012, 04:53 PM
Why did Jenn M really contact the Cult Help group? It is not a normal reaction for someone retiring from teaching in a group and tired, or moving abroad is it?

Why can Dreadwear and JennM not respond about the child who was abused but leap to respond to any outsiders asking very justified questions?

Why did Leo steal all Gurdjieff's work and declare it his own and ban discussion or reading of the original material?

I thought I'd explained why I contacted the Cult Help group. It wasn't because I felt brainwashed etc, but more to tackle my own tendency to believe I don't need help, e.g. it could have been the case I'd repressed something important that this Help group could uncover. In the event, it doesn't look as if I'd repressed anything dangerous, at least nothing this group had the wit to uncover.

I'm not responding to any of your claims about various kinds of abuse because I have no knowledge of this kind of thing from my own time in the Emin. So for me that's just what they are: your claims. What you do about them is up to you, but I have no intention of just taking your word for it. And, please: this forum is not the appropriate place for you to present your 'proof'. If you have evidence, I would have thought that is a matter for the police. And I'm tackling outsiders' criticisms of the Emin according to what it meant to me. There is a difference between these two things.

I never heard Leo claim that Gurdjieff's work was his own. I had a strong interest in Gurdjieff which was actually kindled by the Emin. One night, I took the leaders of the UK Gurdjieff society (one who'd been Ouspensky's student) to Putney to meet Ro. It may surprise you to learn that it was overall a very positive meeting. The most senior gentleman of the group wrote to me afterwards, full of praise for Emin people. The same man also hosted a couple of meetings of Emin people at his flat in London and was a very generous, kind and encouraging host. I tell this story because my enduring experience of the Emin is a positive one. Which isn't to say there weren't problems and mistakes made by Emin people, including myself of course. I'm not entirely sure why I'm posting about all this, other than out of a deep gratitude for what I got from the Emin.

08-01-2012, 10:43 AM
If you look at water you will realise then importance of purity and ensuring the water supply is not contaminated (defiled). This is the basis of the great Iranian religion and something our ancestors had to learn. Water borne parasites, viruses and bacteria kill. Fortunately you can purify contaminated water and Naature does this with filters and evaporation.

It is true with food and it is even more true with mystery schools. So when an old member writes in (for years) to explain that the school and teachings are contaminated (defile/devil/evil) it is in the hope that we can purify the system which feeds so many. Now many people are content to eat McDonalds burgers and will not accept that there is anything wrong with them although the evidence is hard to miss and they are bursting at the seams. So it is with some stalwarts in the Emin whose disinterest in the welfare of all is evident in an 'I'm alright Jack' or 3 monkey's attitude.

But I have been writing to Ethra for years about the possibility of discussing this all confidentially and finding a way to rectify it. The stalwarts refused to pass on my messages to her for many years and eventually I was directed by a dream of Leo ('Oberon' and leo's box) to this forum where I have had to try to get across the simple message that I need to communicate with her privately. Fortunately she can see for herself now what is going wrong as it is all here including a bit of shunning and new light on some old lessons.

By the way Oberon CP about the man in the blue war crown that Egypt night. I wonder if he ever spoke to you about it. I recognised the name Yeacon that you mentioned and it rang a distant bell. A nice man that I did not know well. Although one day in South London I saw him again. He appeared right in front of me. I was driving and this man stepped out into the road in front of my car. I stopped and recognised him but could not attract his attention. He probably thought I was beeping because I nearly ran him over but it was to say hi!

reve x

10-01-2012, 10:57 AM
Occult attacks can never be verified, they are coincidental. Look at Job, he loses everything, his daughters are raped and enslaved he suffers appalling diseases all to test his faith. Or maybe the stuff just happened.

Somone pointed out to me that since I moved to Glasgow last month they keep seeing it mentioned on the news. The storms have temporarily abated but return later this month. The worst storms since the last Ice Age they say. Coincedentally.

Car crashes etc. Now come the awful cluster headaches and another crown of thorns.

wiki: The pain may be very sharp and may cause pain around the eye area and may also be a pain within the back of the eye. The pain of cluster headaches is markedly greater than in other headache conditions, including severe migraines; experts have suggested that it may be the most painful condition known to medical science. Female patients have reported it as being more severe than childbirth. Dr. Peter Goadsby, Professor of Clinical Neurology at University College London (now University of California, San Francisco), a leading researcher on the condition has commented:

"Cluster headache is probably the worst pain that humans experience. I know that’s quite a strong remark to make, but if you ask a cluster headache patient if they’ve had a worse experience, they’ll universally say they haven't. Women with cluster headache will tell you that an attack is worse than giving birth. So you can imagine that these people give birth without anesthetic once or twice a day, for six, eight, or ten weeks at a time, and then have a break. It's just awful."

The pain is lancinating or boring/drilling in quality, and is located behind the eye (periorbital) or in the temple, sometimes radiating to the neck or shoulder. Analogies frequently used to describe the pain are a red-hot poker inserted into the eye, or a spike penetrating from the top of the head, behind one eye, radiating down to the neck, or sometimes having a leg amputated without any anaesthetic. The condition was originally named Horton's Cephalalgia after Dr. B.T Horton, who postulated the first theory as to their pathogenesis. His original paper describes the severity of the headaches as being able to take normal men and force them to attempt or complete suicide. From Horton's 1939 paper on cluster headache:

"Our patients were disabled by the disorder and suffered from bouts of pain from two to twenty times a week. They had found no relief from the usual methods of treatment. Their pain was so severe that several of them had to be constantly watched for fear of suicide. Most of them were willing to submit to any operation which might bring relief."

Thus, cluster headaches are also known by the nickname "suicide headaches".

I am not an evil man, and quite pacifist. I find even 'shields' to be offensive if they return evil. All I asked was a quiet chat with Ethra about some things that went wrong, which she does know about. Coincidentally I am having my life ruined. I know where it comes from. Do not let the Emin become the Evil. Karma will re-balance things and I already have a 'blood body' as Leo would say so i do not need someone to light a slow bonfire on my chest again.

The problem is that Emins do not know what they are dealing with and how they empower it. The bad angels laugh at you in your ignorance. Then when you die you get upset and say you were misled. Put your voodoo dolls and pins in the bin for goodness sake.

reve x

10-01-2012, 11:04 AM
to mention that there are no painkillers that are effective with cluster headaches, even morphine has no effect on them at all. But I will not kill myself which is the probable intention.

11-01-2012, 10:01 AM
David Icke's newsletter has some interesting facts about the killing of innocents (10 for every militant) by drones. Ethra should be asking for her money back from Mr Obama and her students should be protesting outside the White House like those protesting about the barbaric Guantanamo prison. The Emin is being turned into the Omen isn't it? This is what you are supporting Ethra and is the very reason why many turned to the Emin away from the disgusting politics in this world. Every innocent demands justice. There are now drones all over the world, bigger, better armed and managed from a comfortable seat in a safe country. We are moving to a dreadful terminator type world without a hint of protest from our religous leaders. And indiscriminate killing of women and children is hidden by the anger felt by the military at every soldier lost. Like the Nazis these people want to take hundreds of innocent lives for each one.

David Icke: Human Rights Watch has written to Obama calling for an end to CIA command of targeted murder by drones and for clarification on the legal basis of the killings. James Ross, the legal and policy director at Human Rights Watch, said:

'CIA drone strikes have become an almost daily occurrence around the world, but little is known about who is killed and under what circumstances. So long as the US resists public accountability for CIA drone strikes, the agency should not be conducting targeted killings.'

'Unsupported claims by administration officials that all US agencies involved in targeted killings are complying with international law are wholly inadequate. By failing to adopt policies and practices that demonstrate compliance with international law, the US raises doubts among its allies about the lawfulness of its actions and creates a dangerous model for abusive governments.'

But then the US is an abusive government. One of the first decisions made in office by Barack 'Nobel Peace Prize' Obama was to agree a drone strike on Pakistan and these attacks have increased massively on his watch. They are used to kill civilians in Afghanistan, Yemen and Somalia as well as Pakistan and the list is only going to grow while these insane people continue to dictate events.

A rare mainstream article in the Washington Post was headed 'Under Obama, an emerging global apparatus of drone killing'. It described how the drone programme 'involves dozens of secret facilities, including two operational hubs on the East Coast, virtual Air Force cockpits in the Southwest and clandestine bases in six countries on two continents'.

Oh Dea! Mr Obama may be a very nice man but I think his supporters should express their outrage at some of the things happening under his leadership. The Emin helped to put him in the White House and has ignored his more evil policies and turned its back on their own misdeeds.

Religions should be united by a single truth not killing each other's families. Can we not all agree on that? Can you wonder why so many people in this world are angry with us?

I am therefore barring Ethra's admission to our school of clairvoyance and the hidden masters' teachings until she starts putting these things right.

reve x

11-01-2012, 11:22 AM
or the return of the Omen Politics perhaps.

We all vote for the best candidate but are seldom deluded that they are the one and know they have to toe a party line which will have a few things about it we dont completely subscribe to. Some campaign as well and take round leaflets. More fervant ones join the Party. How fervant do you have to be to give them 5000 pounds odd? Has anyone reading ever done that?

Fine it is a coprporate thing of course. And this exactly why the Emin should not be a corporation. RLE or whatever it calls itself now.

My School of Clairvoyance was physical once. Everything spiritual needs a physical home somewhere. And there is or was a manual of the Hidden Masters' Teachings which some have seen, even an early on line version. But it is now only a spiritual school, and of course as it works that way, always was. We do not pay any political donations. I have nothing against Mr Obama. He is a fine man with a lovely family. I am not against the US which is a splendid nation. Innocents have always been killed, they are the only martyrs. But I despair at these drones. All countries will have these robots overhead soon. They are no different to inter-continental missiles. Imagine them circling overhead. Currently I imagine a spiritual version cluster bombing my head at regular intervals. They are horrible.

We will only have a more enlightened world if our leaders are enlightened. I wish I could educate the lot of them in my school. Things would change.

reve x

11-01-2012, 06:30 PM
Hello everybody
I’m really pleased with the way that you are all currently discussing the issues about the emin. I never really thought that this thread would become like this when I started it, years ago.

I’m about to move to an address that has no internet, so I won’t be able to make any posts for a while, (not that I make many anyway!) I also won’t be able to log in here and read private messages.

Reve, I’m impressed, you seem to have a love/hate for the emin and present interesting and important questions about it. Ethra may come to talk to you yet! Good luck!

I think it is true to say that the emin as an organisation has had experiences of moral abuse and corruption by some people, some times. Looking at the nature of the organisation, it’s management structure, and the subject matter it deals with, its finances, its “open door” policy, of course it is so and has been in the past. All similar organisations have suffered the same, I’m sure. To think David Icke has not experienced this too at any level would be foolish in my view.

But it is also true that it has done many positive things as well, so both sides of the argument are correct. I think though that it is also true to say that all members of the emin will eventually leave the organisation at one point or another. Maybe we should see it a bit like going to a private school to study occultism but without qualifications. Personally, I disagree with hierarchical systems, as all is one, and disliked it when I was an emin member. I remember hearing Leo say that he had to “sack” an usher because that usher was getting members to drink each other’s urine at meetings. (yuch!)

Reve, by the way, what was your evidence for Ethra making political donations?

Dreadwear, you take care now. Amazing to have met you here, you couldn’t make it up!

I’m off to live in the country! I will come back here soon I’m sure, and I’ll still follow the thread at work at lunchtimes.

Be cool with each other now. X

12-01-2012, 10:09 AM
My dear 'Oberon' (yes you are the right Oberon, king of Fey).

In answer to your question:http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Jensen-Beach/deborah-c-mckay-P4220778.aspx

Google Deborah C McKay (Ethra) and the site comes up, it will not display the whole site name here.

You are right, there is good and bad everywhere and I have put as much good in here about Leo and the Emin as I can, but was also aware of my responsibility to put the full picture here. My dismay is with an organisation that will not respond appropriately to, and treats its ex members with disdain when they try to communicate. Even David Cameron would reply if I wrote to him about abused children and abused female students. But I would remind that my first contact was to ask the London Emin head if Ethra wanted the ancient Emin scarab and i was told to sell it and send the money.

JennM I have worked with Social Workers and the Police involved with child abuse for many years in a Borough which has suffered some of the worst child abuse in modern UK history. If I had known their life names, the actual facts and had the child still been a child and at risk it would have been reported. I am highlighting that I was forbidden ever to mention it in those dark days and am now asking if Ethra could do something for the child out of compassion. Something like the political donation of $6050 and some discreet recognition for her suffering and the resulting cover up would be something for her I am sure. The fact is it has taken ten years to get a message through to Ethra and I am not convinced even now that she knows I have written here (tied to a chair in the basement by her 'minders'). But if she does would it be so much to ask for a discreet pm?

i would do the same for the choir boys in my old church or anyone else. The law would not suggest that this child was abused by the Emin but, if they had evidence, by the Emin step father. But ethics dictate something else and one might expect to find them lurking in the conscience of Emin members now who have built on our hard earned foundations then.

Good Luck CP! Remember your name is in Leo's dream box with some very exotic items as obviously you are very important and this thread is an extraordinary testament to an honest broker. The countryside you are moving to is fortunate indeed.

reve x

13-01-2012, 09:52 AM
I am still under imaginary attack. If that was all I could manage but unfortunately those attacking me are without any scruples. In the UK if your dog attacks someone you are responsible. That is how it should be. Ethra if you do read this will you please announce here that you will not tolerate anyone taking such imaginary actions against me and mine in your name or that of the Emin. Let them do it in their own names. As for those dogs of war who cannot see past their blood frenzy I wish to point out that I am calling in those dog catchers that Leo called arch maintainers. You are the very reason that Leo is in such despair and such trouble. Ultimately you will be meeting him and find that out for yourselves.

As above so below. There is trouble above and war is about to sweep the earth. If there were neutral observers on both sides then watching one side urinate on the religous enemies they have just killed will have made minds up for a very long time. I daresay it was set up deliberately to achieve war. But the dogs are blind and do not understand that the bad angels want to destroy the earth because they have no peace. The Emin should have been working to prevent such a scenario many years ago, as should all the leaders of religions. But they all fell into a corporate trap. The Dalai Lama fights Dorje's sect (himself) and China, his home. Christian fights Christian. Muslim fights Muslim. Total destruction beckons and the bad angels laugh.

They say it is 5 minutes to midnight, doomsday. Actually their clock is slow and we are in our last year here. All for nothing except jealousy, vanity and pride.

How sad are we as a race. There is nothing left to justify if we do not pull out of our headlong plunge over the cliff, taking most of nature with us, but no politician can achieve that. It is at angelic level and people are still prepared to take their money to do the dirty work. We were talking about this and an Emin alternative 40 years ago. Before that the hippies had tried and failed.

Let me say that the angels cannot make you do this. They cannot kill you if you will not do their bidding, but can make life very unpleasant by getting someone else to. The whole misunderstanding about free will is here. You can refuse, but when offered a nice pension you do not refuse. When offered control of the world and a big house you say yes, unlike the man they say was crucified a week after saying no.

Say no! What a wonderful campaign that was.

reve x

13-01-2012, 06:27 PM
They are in a playground, sitting opposite each other on a see saw. They are 'not opposite but adjacent' to the centre of the see saw. He is down, she is up. But any set of scales one gram more on either side will tip it. It does not take a megaton warhead to tip it back. All we want is a bit of balance. Fairness between men and women, rich and poor, black and white, Christian Moslem (both are 'Islam'). If you see it all from the middle you are enlightened, this is the law of 3.

reve x

14-01-2012, 12:14 AM
Can you explain exactly what you meant by 'Arch Maintainers' please? I think I may have encountered them.

14-01-2012, 05:23 PM
Hi Mananaan

Not people who repair old bridges, except in a mystical sense. My reference relates to what I would term the prison warders for certain entities locked up here. But the phrase was used by Leo and really comes from Gurdjieff again, with a bit of G''s fatuous Ray (Leo's first name by the way) of Creation thrown in, as they were the 'Arch Maintainers of the Galaxy'. G also used titles like archangel, archcherub, archseraph etc in his hierarchy and the ones locked down here were 'angels of the presence' strictly speaking. I quote a text from the angelfire website but was looking for G's actual texts. I think many anticipate an imminent invasion by the Nephilim in space craft. But I see a more spiritual arrival at particular times*.

angelfire: Throughout Beelzebub’s Tales Gurdjieff exaggerates the nature of Endlessness with pompous and superfluous titles and adjectives. “All-Most-Gracious Endlessness” (BT1128), and “All-Loving, Endlessly-Merciful and Absolutely-Just Creator-Endlessness” (BT745), are but two examples of more than sixty such appellations throughout the book. In a similar vein, in writing of the High Commission and the Sacred Individuals, Gurdjieff uses the same tactic. Universal-Arch-Chemist-Physicist Angel Looisos” (BT88), and Most-Great-Arch-Seraph Sevohtartra BT89), are just two examples of many used throughout the book to describe these supposed beings. These overly gushing descriptions ought to put us on our guard.

Gurdjieff goes even further in mockingly calling Looisos “His Conformity” (BT182-183). Let us remember that Gurdjieff was keen to follow his grandmother’s advice when she said to him: “Eldest of my grandsons! Listen and always remember my strict injunction to you: In life never do as others do.” (BT27)

And we can just picture the buffoonery of Looisos who, with his colleagues on the Most High Commission, not only messed things up for the three-brained beings by implanting the organ Kundabuffer in them, but then had to return to Earth to beseech Beelzebub to help stop the animal sacrifices resulting from the unintended consequences of that implanting. Picture the ridiculous pomposity in this quotation from Beelzebub’s Tales as Looisos shouts down to Beelzebub: “His Conformity ascended and when He was fairly high up, added in a loud voice, ‘By this your Reverence you will be rendering a great service to our Uni-Being All-Embracing Endlessness’.” (BT183).

All typical of G's rather satanic view of the world. When he met Crowley he declined to reveal any of his powers and C thought he was a fake or a low order black magician. You may recall G's play 'The struggle of the magicians'. A fake satanist?

* Time. there is an ancient prophecy relating to the division of time. It is an enigma. It could I suppose relate to hours, minutes even the length of the year ie the 'clock'. Obviously the now which divides time into past and future. It is not really like that unless you are on one side of the see saw though when it appears that Now is the second hand ticking round and round the galactic clock. Prophecy is in the past but the mouth grabs the tail. Most religions claim the division of time. So BC/AD divides time and puts Christ at 0, in the middle. BCE is the more scientific term and Julius Caesar has as much right perhaps to the claim (before and after Caesar). Rabbis have a different date for year 1 and Pol Pot had it even quite recently. The Mayans also have a date closer to the Egyptian First Dynasty. By all of this I just mean to show that they have always tried to claim the date. It is a prison sentence being served and prisoners do tend to count the days and also make a note of when the warders are doing the rounds.

I am just ringing my cell bell for help and you know how popular that makes you with your violent cell mates. But I was ringing Ethra's bell a long time and she did not answer it. Now I have tried the governors' bell. Let's see what happens.

reve x

14-01-2012, 05:32 PM
In reality time starts in the middle. It is where the pebble enters the pool and ripples flow outwards back and forth. Some insects live in very short fast time, our minutes are a May Fly's years. Others last a very long time and see it slowly like oaks. You cannot see those who go backwards while you go 'forward' as they are in the other motorway lane. But there are the maintainers. You can only meet them out of time in that middle dimension. Poor Professor Hawkins has done his best with a tricky subject but he is fortunate to be right there in the middle, as are we.


14-01-2012, 08:44 PM
You need to check your sources are reliable, but we all know that. If you are a journalist or Leo you must not reveal your source. Gurdjieff claimed to have got his material from The Source, which his students hoped would educate them too. G said you cannot find it, it finds you.

It is fairly clear to me that Leo was Gurdjieff’s source, just as G was leo’s. The material was fairly meaningless and regurgitated in a cycle, which is quite possible if you can be open to your source. Teaching was a way that G said achieved this as that is how you learn, and how Leo learned much too. You become inspired as David Icke was on TV that day, and out it comes. You know it is true but, for the life of you, you will have difficulty explaining that to a cynic.

Really it is more helpful if your source is enlightened (and you actually know that for certain), and also that it is not gullible which both Leo and Gurdjieff were. But to them a large part of it was a way to make a living in a competitive world for mystery schools.

Get enlightened and listen to yourself. Illuminate your path from some way ahead so that you get where you need to. You may only find out where that is later but at least will be moving in the right sort of direction.

Crowley said ‘Do what thou wilt (shall be the whole of the Law)’ and means do what I say.
Gurdjieff was taught ‘do not do what others do’ and says do what I do.
Jesus supposedly said ‘I am the way’ which means do it my way
Ruth said ‘I would rather be a little thing going up than a big thing coming down’ which means human not a falling angel. Which means she is an angel.
Leo encouraged us to think for ourselves and not to believe something unless we had ensured it was true by testing it. This meant ‘do what I say, do what I do, I am the way’. I think we should take him literally but take the ‘I’ as ourselves not him. He showed us a way and a direction. Some of it does not check out though. You will have to work it out yourselves. At least he got us moving.

Mananaan the arch maintainers arrived a little while ago and you may well have met them. Most here will. They are very nice. A bit like our own antibodies checking us out for tumours. Tumour cells do not like them and hope to avoid detection by hiding in places like us. But they stick out like a sore thumb. We are nice and they are not. They always want to grow and expand and are vampires to their students.

The arch maintainers need physical homes here too but have very high standards. They are the sort who complain about the hotel maid using the same cloth to clean the toilet and the glasses. Separation is the key, the ancient word for which is Selah which can be found in many of David’s psalms. The weeds need to be pulled out to save the crop.

You know we are only a crop don’t you?

Reve x

16-01-2012, 09:18 AM
Gurdjieff is credited with inspiring Stalin, Hitler and Kitchener (the general who led so many to their death in WW1). It is said that he initiated Stalin and Kitchener in Freemasonry. There is quite a lot on the web about the connections. In spiritual terms it is a fact that the dogs of war were unleashed in the last century and this man had a lot to do with it.

Mikushevich: “We are saying Gurdjieff, but we have Stalin in mind – or vice-versa.” “Gurdjieff was able to influence politicians because he was outside politics.” Gurdjieff and Stalin and even Hitler have features in common. “Stalin began his career as a poet, and Hitler as a painter. They took from Gurdjieff a method that appeared to be irresistible and flawless: the way to build a New Man.” The name “Sarmoung” comes from ancient Iranian and refers to “the king of the birds worshiped in ancient Iran as a superior being.” The original word was “simurg” and it means either “one bird” or “thirty birds” associated with the mountain of Kaf, “where he acquired secret knowledge in one of the dervish retreats – a monastery hidden in the mountains.” Telepathy, hypnosis, and clairvoyance are some of the “mighty powers of this world.” Mikushevich refers to the early life of Stalin who studied at the same seminary as Gurdjieff. “He was expelled for participation in some kind of esoteric secret, maybe a kind of sect of Yezidis. The idea was the same as Gurdjieff’s. Stalin came to his main aim in life under the influence of Gurdjieff. The main idea was that in the world everything is predetermined and evil is overcome by evil.” Mikushevich equates the Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man with “the features of the Sarmoung brotherhood” and refers to Gurdjieff in terms of “the staretz tradition” in Orthodox Christianity. At the Priory, Gurdjieff recreated the traditions he knew: “Gurdjieff forces people to spy on other people and to tell on each other. Essentially he creates the birth-place, the model, of the totalitarian state which flourished in the Twentieth Century.” He added, “The main doctrine of Stalin emerged either under the influence of or in interaction with Gurdjieff. This is the famous idea of ‘multiple personalities’ and ‘man is a machine.’” Mikushevich says, with respect to Gurdjieff’s views on the role of the Moon in human affairs, “There are rumours that Hitler was acquainted with this doctrine of Gurdjieff. Essentially this idea of a man as a machine is the foundation of any totalitarian regime. Gurdjieff is the inspiration of totalitarianism. He is a guru of totalitarianism, despite the fact that he himself was not interested in politics.”
Mikushevich talks about Karl Haushofer and his geopolitical views because “he was acquainted with the experiences of Gurdjieff in Tibet. They tried to discover the ‘true Aryan race’ in Tibet, and in the faces of Tibetans to find features of Nordic people.” Mikushevich refers to Haushofer, who was a member of the Thule Society, as “a student of Gurdjieff.”


I do not like the thought that most Emin teachings are based on the nonsense preached by this man but others here may have a different opinion. Certainly we should investigate the connection as the men I have mentioned are the epitomy of evil in this world. The one missing is that incarnation of the first Chinese Emperor, Mao, who followed their lead in destroying innocent lives. This spirit was raised by G as well.

Are you lot sure you know what you are in?

reve x

16-01-2012, 10:46 AM
You may all think that Leo is raging with me but this is far from the truth. he is however raging with some of you. Leo was a real man and as he would freely admit, not always right. But at least he tried. He did not have the benefit of the internet but he had the next best thing.

We had been chosen to be the advertising family in the area, the man at our door announced. This means we can have a free set of very expensive encyclopedias. There are a lot of them, more than 26 large volumes, and they fill a book case, so we can have the bookcase too.

Ask me any question, he says.
Ok I say, what was the real name of Jimi Hendrix?
Out comes the book with every imaginable fact about the man.
If you cannot find the answer, the publisher will. And if necessary scientists will be put on the case, as with the man who wanted to know how to make some rare ted device.

All we have to do is pay for the constant updates, literally every month more stuff comes out you see. But you are educating the kids, and you have all the knowledge in the world at your fingertips. Free. (Well the updates are £6 a month but you just have to make a standing order for this and commit as the advertising family for ten years). Perhaps your neighbours will want to buy them. That could be a nice little earner too.


There is a cancellation clause if you can think quickly enough. The computation is 10 x 12 x 6. These encyclopedias just cost you £720. That would buy a little house then and the last car cost £30.

Leo became extremely successful selling these things. But these schemes have their sell by dates. However what he learned from doing this was how to sell knowledge. He also learned a lot of interesting facts. They are very interesting books and set a trend for our working, as did the dictionaries.

I am not saying he did us no favours as he did, but the cost was really quite high. $100,000 I estimated recently. Knowledge should be free. If it is not then there is something wrong with it isn’t there as not everyone can afford it.

This site is £3 a month. I think that is fair in this day and age. It is the equivalent of Leo’s shilling for the gas meter. But most churches and sects want 10% of you.

Now I am about to post some nice things about Leo and the Emin to balance the books.

reve x

16-01-2012, 02:20 PM
First let us look at this ‘fatuous’ Ray of Creation and where it comes from and what it really is. This long post should be too long for everyone!

Leo mentioned the Chaldeans as the most wonderful people (who lived well over one thousand years he said). The Chaldaeans are really the nations that lived in modern day Iraq, the Babylonians etc. W. Wynn Werstcott who founded the Golden Dawn with Mathers translated the so called ‘Chaldaean Oracles’. Gurdjieff claimed to discover the Sarmaung Brotherhood in Iraq at Ur of Chaldees and this is where the ‘Ray of Seven’ derives. It is found in many religions (the seven days of creation, the rainbow, there is even a thread here relating to the many manifestations of 7, the musical notes etc)

Wiki: The seven rays is an occult concept that has appeared in several religions and esoteric philosophies, since at least the 6th century BCE, of the Aryan (Indo-European) peoples in both Western culture and in India. In the west, it can be seen in early western mystery traditions such as Gnosticism and the Roman Mithraic Mysteries; and in texts and iconic art of the Catholic Church as early as the Byzantine era. In India, the concept has been part of Hindu religious philosophy and scripture since at least the Vishnu Purana, dating from the post-Vedic era.
Beginning in the late 19th century, the seven rays appeared in a modified and elaborated form in the teachings of Theosophy, first presented by H. P. Blavatsky The Theosophical concept of the seven rays was further developed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the writings of the Neo-Theosophists C. W. Leadbeater, Alice Bailey, Manly P. Hall, and others, including notably the more recent Neo-Theosophical teachings of Benjamin Creme and his group Share International; and in the philosophies of organizations such as Temple of the People,The "I AM" Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, The Summit Lighthouse, The Temple of The Presence (1995) and various other such organizations promulgating what are called the Ascended Master Teachings, a group of religious teachings based on Theosophy.
As the New Age movement of the mid-to-late 20th century developed, the seven rays concept appeared as an element of metaphysical healing methods such as Reiki and other modalities, and in esoteric astrologyIn ancient Greek mythology, Zeus takes the bull-form known as Taurus in order to win Europa. Taurus is also associated with Aphrodite and other goddesses, as well as with Pan and Dionysus. The face of Taurus "gleams with seven rays of fire."
The 2nd century CE Chaldean Oracles feature the seven rays as purifying agents of Helios, symbolism featured in Mithraic liturgy as well. Later, in the 4th century CE, Emperor Julian Saturnalia composed a "Hymn to the Solemn Sun," and in his "Hymn to the Mother of the Gods" spoke of "unspeakable mysteries hidden from the crowd such as Julian the Chaldean prophesied concerning the god of the seven rays." In Greek Gnostic magic of the same era, colored gemstones were often used as talismans for medicine or healing; they were often engraved with a symbol borrowed from the Egyptian deity Chnuphis: a hooded serpent or great snake. The snake was shown with a lion's head, from which emanated either twelve or seven rays. The twelve rays represented the zodiac, and the seven rays represented the planets, usually with the seven Greek vowels engraved at the tips of the seven rays. The reverse sides of the talismans were engraved with a snake twisting around a vertical rod. These were known as "Gnostic amulets," and were sometimes also engraved with the names "Iao Sabao". Gnostic gems with Abraxas also featured the seven rays
The Chaldaean Oracles (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/coz/index.htm) have a mish mash of stuff including quite a bit on ‘7‘:

1. But God is He having the head of the Hawk. The same is the first, incorruptible, eternal, unbegotten, indivisible, dissimilar: the dispenser of all good; indestructible; the best of the good, the Wisest of the wise; He is the Father of Equity and Justice, self-taught, physical, perfect, and wise--He who inspires the Sacred Philosophy.
5. Hence the inscrutable God is called silent by the divine ones, and is said to consent with Mind, and to be known to human souls through the power of the Mind alone.
Proclus in Theologiam Platonis, 321. T.
Inscrutable. Taylor gives "stable;" perhaps "incomprehensible" is better.
6. The Chaldæans call the God Dionysos (or Bacchus), Iao in the Phœnician tongue (instead of
p. 25
the Intelligible Light), and he is also called Sabaoth, * signifying that he is above the Seven poles, that is the Demiurgos

7. Containing all things in the one summit of his own Hyparxis, He Himself subsists wholly beyond….

25.The Monad first existed, and the Paternal Monad still subsists.
Proclus in Euclidem, 27. T.
26. When the Monad is extended, the Dyad is generated.
Proclus in Euclidemi, 27. T.
Note that" What the Pythagoreans signify by Monad, Duad and Triad, or Plato by Bound, Infinite and Mixed; that the Oracles of the Gods intend by Hyparxis, Power and Energy."

121. He constituted a Septenary of wandering Existences (the Planetary globes).
Z. or T.

123. He made them six in number, and for the Seventh He cast into the midst thereof the Fiery Sun.
Proc. in Tim., 280. Z. or T.
128. As rays of Light his locks flow forth, ending in acute points.
Proc. in Pl. Pol. 387. T.

132. The Disk (of the Sun) is borne in the Starless.. realm above the Inerratic Sphere; and hence he is, not in the midst of the Planets, but of the Three Worlds, according to the telestic Hypothesis.
Jul., Crat., 5, 334. Z. or T.
138. For the Goddess bringeth forth the Vast Sun, and the lucent Moon.

142. The most celebrated of the Babylonians, together with Ostanes and Zoroaster, very properly call the starry Spheres "Herds"; whether because these alone among corporeal magnitudes, are perfectly carried about around a Centre, or in conformity to the Oracles, because they are considered by them
p. 45
as in a certain respect the bands and collectors of physical reasons, which they likewise call in their sacred discourse "Herds" (agelous) and by the insertion of a gamma (aggelous) Angels. Wherefore the Stars which preside over each of these herds are considered to be Deities or Dæmons, similar to the Angels, and are called Archangels; and they are seven in number.

Next a look at the Mandaeans of Chaldea:

Wiki: Around 1290, a learned Dominican Catholic from Tuscany, Ricoldo da Montecroce, or Ricoldo Pennini, was in Mesopotamia where he met the Mandaeans. He described them as follows:
“A very strange and singular people, in terms of their rituals, lives in the desert near Baghdad; they are called Sabaeans. Many of them came to me and begged me insistently to go and visit them. They are a very simple people and they claim to possess a secret law of God, which they preserve in beautiful books. Their writing is a sort of middle way between Syriac and Arabic. They detest Abraham because of circumcision and they venerate John the Baptist above all. They live only near a few rivers in the desert. They wash day and night so as not to be condemned by God, …”
Some Portuguese Jesuits had met some "Saint John Christians" or Mandaeans around the Strait of Hormuz in 1559, when the Portuguese fleet fought with the Ottoman Turkish army in Bahrain. These Mandaean seemed to be willing to obey the Catholic Church. They learned and used the seven Catholic sacraments and the related ceremonies in their lives.Mandaeism, as the religion of the Mandaean people, is based more on a common heritage than on any set of religious creeds and doctrines. A basic guide to Mandaean theology does not exist. The corpus of Mandaean literature, though quite large, covers topics such as eschatology, the knowledge of God, and the afterlife only in an unsystematic manner, and, apart from the priesthood, is known only to a few laypeople.
[edit] Fundamental tenets
According to E.S. Drower, the Mandaean Gnosis is characterized by nine features, which appear in various forms in other gnostic sects:
A supreme formless Entity, the expression of which in time and space is creation of spiritual, etheric, and material worlds and beings. Production of these is delegated by It to a creator or creators who originated in It. The cosmos is created by Archetypal Man, who produces it in similitude to his own shape.
Dualism: a cosmic Father and Mother, Light and Darkness, Right and Left, syzygy in cosmic and microcosmic form.
As a feature of this dualism, counter-types, a world of ideas.
The soul is portrayed as an exile, a captive: home and origin being the supreme Entity to which the soul eventually returns.
Planets and stars influence fate and human beings, and are also places of detention after death.
A saviour spirit or saviour spirits which assist the soul on the journey through life and after it to 'worlds of light'.
A cult-language of symbol and metaphor. Ideas and qualities are personified.
'Mysteries', i.e. sacraments to aid and purify the soul, to ensure rebirth into a spiritual body, and ascent from the world of matter. These are often adaptations of existing seasonal and traditional rites to which an esoteric interpretation is attached. In the case of the Naṣoreans this interpretation is based upon the Creation story (see 1 and 2), especially on the Divine Man, Adam, as crowned and anointed King-priest.
Great secrecy is enjoined upon initiates; full explanation of 1, 2, and 8 being reserved for those considered able to understand and preserve the gnosis.
Mandaeans believe in marriage and procreation, and in the importance of leading an ethical and moral lifestyle in this world, placing a high priority upon family life. Consequently, Mandaeans do not practice celibacy or asceticism. Mandaeans will, however, abstain from strong drink and red meat. While they agree with other gnostic sects that the world is a prison governed by the planetary archons, they do not view it as a cruel and inhospitable one.

Reve: So why 7? The universe is not divided into seven, nor are there really 7 days in a week, the Egyptians had 10. A week corresponds to no particular cycle except approximately a quarter of a lunar month. The 7th wave is not the strongest. They say there are 7 chakras but who really knows. The fact is that 7 is embedded into parables, groupings (the 7 sleepers, the 7 dwarves) and the seven spirits of God.

But behind all of this is some important fact. Religions love to sell numbers so we have dualities, the Trinity the Trio, lots of things in 4’s and so on and Leo was very good at getting us to find examples. What though is needed is the basic understanding of whether and why any number is important. Why are 3 sevens lucky and 21 an age for coming out? Even Enoch comes up with seven archangels. If there really are then a lot can be explained. But are there?

Diodorus Siculus, when enumerating the different legislators of antiquity, says, "Amongst the Jews Moses pretended that the god surnamed Iao gave him his laws" (i. 94). And this is elucidated by the remark of Clemens Alexandrinus, that the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, or Mystic Name, is pronounced ΙΑΟϒ, and signifies "He that is and shall be." Theodoret states that the same four letters were pronounced by the Samaritans as ΙΑΒΕ (Jave); by the Jews as ΙΑΩ. Jerome (upon Psalm viii. says, "The Name of the Lord" amongst the Hebrews is of four letters, Iod, He, Vau, He, which is properly the Name of God, and may be read as ΙΑΗΟ (Iaho) (that is in Latin characters), which is held by the Jews for unutterable. The author of the 'Treatise on Interpretations' says, "The Egyptians express the name of the Supreme Being by the seven Greek vowels ΙΕΗΩΟϒΑ": * which sufficiently explains the mighty potency ascribed to this formula by the inspired author of the 'Pistis-Sophia,' and equally so its frequent appearance upon the talismans now under consideration.


‘I am’and ‘A&O’ seem to connect here.

In 1900, Gerald Massey wrote: It is quite possible, and even apparent, that the first form of the mystical SEVEN was seen to be figured in heaven by the seven large stars of the Great Bear, the constellation assigned by the Egyptians to the Mother of Time, and of the seven Elemental Powers. And once a type like this has been founded it becomes a mould for future use--one that cannot be got rid of or out of. The Egyptians divided the face of the sky by night into seven parts. The primary Heaven was sevenfold. The earliest forces recognised in Nature were reckoned as seven in number. These became Seven Elementals, devils, or later divinities. Seven properties were assigned to nature--as matter, cohesion, fluxion, coagulation, accumulation, station, and division--and seven elements or souls to man. A principle of sevening, so to say, was introduced, and the number seven supplied a sacred type that could be used for manifold future purposes. When Abraham took his oath at Beer-sheba, the Well of the Seven, we are told that he sevened, or did seven. Sevening was then a recognised mode of swearing; and Sevening is still a recognised mode of swearing with the Esoteric Buddhists, who, according to Mr. Sinnett, continue it ad libitum, and carry it on through thick and thin.
The seven souls of the Pharaoh are often mentioned in the Egyptian texts. The moon-god, That-Esmun, or the later sun-god, expressed the Seven nature-powers that were prior to himself, and were summed up in him as his seven souls, of which he was the manifestor as the Eighth One. In the Hindu drawings we see the god Agni portrayed with seven arms to his body. These represent his seven powers, principles, breaths, or souls. The seven rays of the Chaldean god Heptaktis, or Iao, on the Gnostic stones indicate the same septenary of souls. The seven stars in the hand of the Christ in Revelation have the same significance. There is a star with eight rays, which is found to be the symbol of Buddha, of Assur in Assyria, of Mithras; and of the Christ in the catacombs of Rome. That was the symbol of the Gnostic pleroma of the seven souls, the perfect flower or star of which was the Christ of the Gnosis; not of any human history. It can be traced back to Egypt as the star of Sut-Horus, a star with eight points or loops, undoubtedly meant for Orion, which was at one time the star of Annunciation, that showed the place where the young child lay, or where the God was re-born upon the horizon of the Resurrection at Easter. A very ancient form of the eight-rayed star was a sign of the Nnu, the Associate Gods of Egypt, who were the Seven Ali (Ari) or Companions (Cf. the Babylonian Ili and Gnostic Elohim), as children of the Great Mother, the Gnostic Ogdoas. The same type, with the same meaning, is represented in the Book of Revelation, where the son of man (who is a male with female breasts, and therefore not a human being) holds in his hand the seven stars which symbolise the seven angels or spirits who are in the service of their Lord--like the Seven Great Spirits in the 17th chapter of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead."

There is another take on 7 here:

Wiki: The ancient astronomy taught that above the seven planetary spheres was an eighth, the sphere of the fixed stars.[7] In the eighth sphere, these Gnostics taught, dwelt the mother to whom all these archons owed their origin, Sophia (Wisdom) or Barbelo. In the language of these sects the word Hebdomad not only denotes the seven archons, but is also a name of place, denoting the heavenly regions over which the seven archons presided; while Ogdoad denotes the supercelestial regions which lay above their control.
The Ophites accepted the existence of these seven archons (Origen, Contra Celsum, vi. 31; a nearly identical list is given in On the Origin of the World):[8]
Yaldabaoth, called also Saklas and Samael
Feminine name: Pronoia (Forethought) Sambathas, "week".
Prophets:[9] Moses, Joshua, Amos, Habakkuk.
From Hebrew yalda bahut, "Child of Chaos"? The outermost who created the six others, and therefore the chief ruler and Demiurge par excellence. Called "the Lion-faced", leontoeides.
Feminine name: Lordship.
Prophets: Samuel, Nathan, Jonah, Micah.
Perhaps from Yahu, Yahweh, but possibly also from the magic cry iao in the Mysteries.
Feminine name: Deity.
Prophets: Elijah, Joel, Zechariah.
The Old Testament title God of Hosts was thought a proper name, hence Jupiter Sabbas (Yahweh Sabaoth).
Astaphanos, or Astaphaios
Feminine name: Sophia (Wisdom).
Prophets: Esdras, Zephaniah.
Astraphaios is beyond doubt the planet Venus, as there are gnostic gems with a female figure and the legend ASTAPHE, which name is also used in magic spells as the name of a goddess.
The Sun.
Feminine name: Kingship.
Prophets: Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel.
From the Hebrew term for "the Lord", used of God; Adonis of the Syrians representing the Winter sun in the cosmic tragedy of Tammuz. In the Mandaean system Adonaios represents the Sun.
Elaios, or Ailoaios, or sometimes Ailoein
Feminine name: Jealousy.
Prophets: Tobias, Haggai.
From Elohim, God (El).
The Moon.
Feminine name: Wealth.
Prophets: Michaiah, Nahum.
From Jaroah? or "light"? or Horus?

Iao Sabaoth is Greek, derived from the Hebrew “YHVH Tzaviot,” usually translated “Lord of Hosts,” a name of God in the Old Testament. In modern biblical translations, it is often rendered as “Commander of armies.”
The name Iao Sabaoth is also applied together or separately as Gnostic archons; the Gnostic Iao is associated with both Abraxas and the seven headed dragon; he is sometimes referred to as the “Father of Lies.”


So what is this all about. I have written here quite extensively about the Ogdoad (8). The article above suggests that the Ogdoad is above the ‘7’. So would I. Beware the 7. 8 is justice and the justification. The angels who led mankind astray do not like this and want you to call upon them.

Reve x

16-01-2012, 08:02 PM
What Kitchener (he raised the WW1 UK army, commanded it and sent to their deaths well over a million in the attrition war. Died from being mined while on the way to Russia. Egypt and India on his cv.), Stalin (20 million at least), Hitler (8 million at least) and Mao (countless millions) even Genghis Khan (million before breakfast) have in common is 'human sacrifice' 20th century style. The next century looks like being worse.

In Gurdjieff's imaginative book his star, Beelzebub, says they have been forgiven because human sacrifice had stopped. Well G certainly had the contacts to bring it back did he not. this is where they drew their immense and beastly power but it did them no good.

Now something nice about Leo. Although he mixed with the wrong people and left a legacy which is a huge problem for him he did something else too. No one can justify the mass murderers of the 20th century. Their brand of killing was as bad as it could be, torturous. It took very brave men to take them on. one such was Leo who was not afraid of the dark or the light. He said that when he died he would stand up for himself and complain. He did. He is a great part of our culture, certainly of my life, and a wonderful man. He did not like human sacrifice any more than me.

reve x

16-01-2012, 08:07 PM
Hello everyone

I just wanted to say that anyone is welcome to come and engage / re-engage / check out / have a peek at what is currently going on with the Emin and with Emin members.

There are a lot of different things going on all the time such as week day evening get togethers, weekend philosophers and music open mic cafes, intensive weekenders seminars etc.

I don't want to advertise here on David Icke boards as that would be very rude. But if anyone is interested in maybe hooking up with old friends or just seeing what the Emin is about please message me here either on this board or privately and I can let you have any details you might want.

In the meantime, I am a current member and am really happy to at least speak about the Emin from my own standpoint.

Hello Dreadwear

I am an ex-emin member; 1991 - 2004 (ish).

Interested in hooking up;maybe exchanging material. Hope to hear from you.


16-01-2012, 08:11 PM
What Kitchener (he raised the WW1 UK army, commanded it and sent to their deaths well over a million in the attrition war. Died from being mined while on the way to Russia. Egypt and India on his cv.), Stalin (20 million at least), Hitler (8 million at least) and Mao (countless millions) even Genghis Khan (million before breakfast) have in common is 'human sacrifice' 20th century style. The next century looks like being worse.

In Gurdjieff's imaginative book his star, Beelzebub, says they have been forgiven because human sacrifice had stopped. Well G certainly had the contacts to bring it back did he not. this is where they drew their immense and beastly power but it did them no good.

Now something nice about Leo. Although he mixed with the wrong people and left a legacy which is a huge problem for him he did something else too. No one can justify the mass murderers of the 20th century. Their brand of killing was as bad as it could be, torturous. It took very brave men to take them on. one such was Leo who was not afraid of the dark or the light. He said that when he died he would stand up for himself and complain. He did. He is a great part of our culture, certainly of my life, and a wonderful man. He did not like human sacrifice any more than me.

reve x

Which Leo are you talking about????????????????????????????

16-01-2012, 11:17 PM
Thanks Reve most interesting read. Some parts remind me of Icke's earlier books and Lobsang Rampa, the latter I discovered back in 87, tried to read all of their books I could lay hands on. Icke I discovered around 91 (Truth vibrations) I'll not quote which texts you've posted relates (there's so much of it lol) but those who are familiar with Rampa and Icke will see the likeness.

17-01-2012, 09:01 AM
What a good question M. Which Leo? I am mentioning the one who said he was the only person in the world to know the real Gurdjieff. Who was the man who inspired the 20th century mass murderers out of his personal anger at life, ignorance and lies, as such fallen ones do and have done throughout the ages. Dont encourage them by ignoring that fact.

Eternal Spirit Leo absolutely hated Rampa and called him the plumber! He had read all his books but did not want us to!

reve x

17-01-2012, 10:04 AM
One day a violent wave of immigration hit pre-Dynastic Egypt which could not cope with organised armies. No one had to before then. The invading armies brought their own God and forced him on this wonderful people. They also brought kings living in vast palaces ruling the people with terror. The priests called for help.

The violent God was called Horus and he was the God of War, something unknown before then.

wiki: Horus was also said to be a god of war and hunting. The Horus falcon is shown upon a standard on the predynastic Hunters Palette in the "lion hunt".

Thus he became a symbol of majesty and power as well as the model of the pharaohs. The Pharaohs were said to be Horus in human form.

Furthermore Nemty, another war god, was later identified as Horus

Horus wasted no time in changing the religions to justify his presence and demonising the ancient Gods of those peoples. But he was an angry and violent God. The falcon God. This is the eagle that Leo put on our tunics and named his Church after. Leo would not have done that had he been better educated in real Egyptology but he followed the likes of Gurdjeff who made of Egypt what they wanted, not what was there.

If you want to wear an eagle on your back you need to know why. There has been war ever since on this planet. But anyone who stands up against it is demonised. Horus was the leader of those fallen angels and still is. He is my implacable enemy by his choice. He brought rape, pillage and indiscriminate murder. After his wars they would bring back mountains of sexual organs taken from his enemies. He brought harems, an aristocracy, an ethnic underclass and slavery.

Is that what any of you want? Do you really want to worship and glorify this trail of destruction? That is the Church of the Eagle Endeavour and it is based in the anger these angels have because they are imprisoned here.

Professor Hawkings thinks we are doomed and must colonise other planets. Does he really think the universe wants the human to lay its eggs elsewhere to fill it with more injustice? Billions scream for justice in the other world. Obtaining that was to be the work of the Emin as I understood it when I first met Leo. But soon I found the aristocracy, slavery, luxury for the leaders, abuse of the others, the harems and the Horus symbol on our backs. I believe that Leo was misled by them and wanted to do his best for the planet. But he was gullible. The reason there are so few enlightened people in this world is because they do not want to open their eyes.

Now we can open our eyes and if Ethra would lead the way, we can justify Leo. But what I see is the blind leading the blind, still demonising the voices that query the direction. Maque your post was the greatest insult to the millions starved and beaten to death. As though they did not exist. Other emins here have done here what you did. Ignored them and tried to make this a Friends Reunited site. That is Leo's legacy and that is what is embarrassing him now. I know why you did it and that the Emin wants to erase all of my posts but it really is very silly is it not? You must care for your afterlife and have every right to challenge what you perceive to be untrue. But allow me that right also. And back it up with a bit of evidence as in any court.

Ethra you have a choice. Hide in your luxury home containment or come out and lead your people to the Truth. Is that really a choice? Did you not dedicate your life just for this? How can you stand by now!


17-01-2012, 11:34 AM
My namesake Sutekh (incorrectly called Set or Seth) was a God of Nature. He tried to kill off the kingship that Horus loved and with an assembly of elders did so, especially the hereditary element. Why should a king's son rule the people after all? Ask Kim Jong-il.

This is why in the tale of osiris being despatched in his jewelled casket his penis is eaten by the cat fish. Isis created another king by magic, Horus and Horus was enraged at what was being done to kingship. Osiris (wsir) means vizier. Each king was Osiris.

Eventually as you can see from the wiki extract below poor Sutekh had to leave Egypt to go and live with Re in the higher world, but the priests never lost their respect for him.

wiki: However, Set still refused to relent, and the other gods were getting tired from over eighty years of fighting and challenges. Horus and Set challenged each other to a boat race, where they each raced in a boat made of stone. Horus and Set agreed, and the race started. But Horus had an edge: his boat was made of wood painted to resemble stone, rather than true stone. Set's boat, being made of heavy stone, sank, but Horus's did not. Horus then won the race, and Set stepped down and officially gave Horus the throne of Egypt. But after the New Kingdom, Set still was considered Lord of the desert and its oases.

This myth, along with others, could be seen as an explanation of how the two kingdoms of Egypt (Upper and Lower) came to be united. Horus was seen as the God of Lower Egypt, and Set as the God of Upper Egypt. In this myth, the respective Upper and Lower deities have a fight, through which Horus is the victor. However, some of Horus (representing Lower Egypt) enters into Set (Upper Egypt) thus explaining why Lower Egypt is dominant over Upper Egypt. Set's regions were then considered to be of the desert.

Cheating does not satisfy Justice. Sutekh was promised his own world at some later time. But Horus refuses to give up his ill gotten gains and hand over peacefully what was agreed long ago. We have assemblies of elders of course but the monarchies and dynasties still rule. Leo ruled but originally it did appear as though his Circle might have some say in things. isis supports her baby Horus, this is the basis of Christianity and the very reason why it has been such a warlike religion. Baby Jesus on Mary's lap is taken directly from the ancient statues and pictures of Isis and Horus. but yiou know all of this.

Is anyone on Sutekh's side?

17-01-2012, 01:31 PM
What a good question M. Which Leo? I am mentioning the one who said he was the only person in the world to know the real Gurdjieff. Who was the man who inspired the 20th century mass murderers out of his personal anger at life, ignorance and lies, as such fallen ones do and have done throughout the ages. Dont encourage them by ignoring that fact.

Eternal Spirit Leo absolutely hated Rampa and called him the plumber! He had read all his books but did not want us to!

reve x

:D Some said he was a plumber called Cyril Hoskins (I think) although he claimed he was born in Tibet and his soul transmigrated into the body of an English man (who'd agreed in the astral/dream realms to allow the take over of his body and his own soul vacated the premises, see he was suicidal and would have faced bad karma, so took up Rampa's offer who needed a new body due to beatings etc by Communists when they took over Tibet hence Rampa's western appearance.

Strange that Leo would read all of them I suspect maybe that's were Leo got some of his ideas from that would make sense after my observation (previous post).

Rampa claimed there was a golden age in Egypt who were the descendants that survived the cataclysm of Atlantis, a sort of Atlantian brotherhood.

Which eventually became corrupted but some of the priesthood remained pure/good but had to go into hiding as they were hunted by the bad Egyptians. They eventually made their base in Tibet. (I'm going off memory here)

Rampa had an amazing ability to write descriptively and paint mental images in the mind of the reader, also a great story teller. Add his depth of knowledge of the occult, and Tibet - plus many other topics, makes me wonder who on earth he was, seems to have known too much to simply have been a plumber. Maybe he had Ghost writers or access to books/writings. certainly a pleasure to read. Even if one takes it as purely entertainment/fantasy.

From him growing up in Tibet becoming a Medical Lama hanging out with the Dalai Lama and his life story which lead him to live in Canada with his cats who he was in telepathic contact with.

I'll post more later with some links to his books.

17-01-2012, 01:47 PM
Anway, according to Rampa parts of his life plan where to go to the west and explain some of the Buddhist teachings through his books... example reincarnation..... that "all paths lead the same way home"..meaning.....what religion you follow as a human, or path you take - we all go back to the source after this life, back to spirit.

He also wanted to invent an aura reading machine, to diagnose people's illnesses and provide cures with his advanced knowledge of the metaphysical and herbs, he was a medical Lama amongst other things.

Anyway he said.....before you're born you are in spirit form and choose a path to take in life, and choose the right parents and circumstances to follow this path. You know like some people seem to know exactly what they want to do when they leave school what job etc. Most of us can only rely on intuition to go with what feels right for us.

But you may choose to be born with special qualities in order to carry out your life plan, an example would be an artist or musician - sensitive creative etc. A builder strong physically etc.

Apparently the trauma of being born from spirit into a physical body and other external factors like mind control and conditioning, can make ones life plan less obvious to an individual, kind of blocking the higher levels of consciousness, where the intuition and life plan can flow down to the conscious mind.

So choosing a life plan before being born maybe related to past life karma which needs balancing out. Or you have chosen to incarnate to do certain things to progress yourself - and also help other people, or even hinder them if your's and their karma needs balancing in some way.

If this is so, certain things that happen will be put down to destiny as if it is meant to happen. Amongst the random chaos, law of averages of life as a human and freewill of an individual sticking to ones life's plan isn't easy.

If you make the wrong choices in life, you can be led way off course, resulting in being reincarnated time and time again to complete your life plan. If you somehow manage to complete the plan and do all that you came here to do as a human, you may progress either into a higher level of spirit, or even a higher level of physical being in another lifetime next time around but in another universe or planet not of this earth. :)

17-01-2012, 01:56 PM
Links to Rampa's books.


There are four other books which have maliciously used the name of Dr. T. Lobsang Rampa for monetary gain; they are all fakes as they were not written by Dr. Rampa. I will highlight these books as they can confuse - they are;
My Visit to Venus - The original manuscript was written by Dr. Rampa, but this book was not. It was created by Gray Barker who used Dr. Rampa's name and manuscript without his permission. This book is totally misleading due to Gray Barker glorifying everything within it! Read Feeding the Flamepage 140; for more information.
Cosmic Telepathy - This book was not co-written by Dr. Rampa. It's written solely by someone called Tuella under the guise she telepathically received the information from Dr. Rampa. Read Feeding the Flame page 112; for more information.

From T.LOBSANG RAMPA's book: "You - Forever"

- a guide to understand the psychic world and to develop parapsychic abilities.

Now - so many, many years after this book was written - so many similar books about these themes has appeared - and from comparison then, one can see the extreme accuracy of Rampas descriptions in this book - regarding the aura, parapsycic abilities, out of the body/astral trips, life on the other side, the reincarnation process etc. Rampa had the ability to fellow all incidents by reading/looking in the AKASHA - earth's memory-bank and so retelling the connections in every detail. The one who SEES can here recognise the TRUTH. Research yourself!! The book is written almost 40 years ago - and today a lot of proofs, from many sources have appeared, that shows the accuracy in his explanations.


17-01-2012, 02:01 PM
A previous post of mine

I don't believe in one God who will reward or punish me for my behaviour in this life.
I think it's more we judge ourselves.
But do believe we learn by mistakes - and can better ourselves.

If we reincarnate until we eventually graduate and break the cycle of reincarnation- All we have learned/experienced must stand us in good stead for what comes next.

There has to be a reason why we are here to learn, otherwise it would be pointless. Therefore it's logical there's some other kind of existence after our lives on earth.

Here's what may happen.

When we die and go to the highest astral planes/spirit realms, we may meet loved ones, who will appear to us as the people (bodies) we knew in our lifetime.

We have a holiday its a bit like heaven, only love, goodness, everything is perfect in this place, no evil can exist there.

This is to heal our soul, from all the trauma life on earth has caused us and we spend time with loved ones. We can choose to manifest whatever we like by thought, even fly, anything we can imagine can be conjured/created for our enjoyment.

Then we go to the hall of records, and watch our previous life (like watching a movie) maybe everything that we ever done and experienced and our interactions/relationships with others is viewed by us.

Before we were born and are born again as a human, while in spirit/soul, we made certain decisions, and formed a plan of what we would achieve in our next incarnation/life.

Choose our parents and what circumstances and opportunities being born into a certain country culture (we arrive programmed with certain skills/talents/physical and mental attributes which will help us achieve our life plan.

Which is also based on our Karma we created with other people.

If we don't achieve our life plan and balance our karma then we have to reincarnate again until we do (earth maybe hell) to a soul/spirit "our natural state of being." Or life may be good on the whole.

When we achieve a pure state of being through good deeds/thought/actions, we break the cycle of reincarnation, and move into Nirvana/heaven, or what ever comes next?
But to balance the ways of the universe we may have to play some sinister roles.

Based on karma reincarnation. A group of souls may have been born to work out Karma together. You may have experienced many lifetimes with these souls.

Example - you where your Mother's mother in a previous life. Some of your friends may have been family and vice versa.

You may be part of a group that's on a mission to do certain tasks and each member is part of the whole and each plays their role.

How do you know who are the ones (souls) you came here to find and work with this time?

Some claim it's like when you meet someone and get to know them it's as if you've already known them for a very long time, first meeting maybe a deep mutual attraction then a longing to be with that person.

You feel very comfortable around them. Maybe share the same interests.

17-01-2012, 02:37 PM
Leo was a security guard! I am an untouchable. It does not happen much to Lords and Ladies. But if you give up your life to something, that can happen. First you need to be sure about what you give yourself up to. Rampa was obviously a Tibetan and that is the thing with them, they can do it. They did it to Gurdjieff but put a war god in him, not a healing lama. Whether Leo did it as a great service to humanity, or out of pride, is yet to be determined but he took this thing on himself as Crowley took on 666. Both depend on their legacies. Poor Jesus and Mohammed have very warlike legacies. I note that Kim Jong-il is called a Stalinist! No wonder his family does not worry about their people starving.

'Siddharta' was mostly out of Herman Hesse's imagination, as was his servant/master Leo in the Journey to the East and his Magister Ludi (Schoolmaster or game master) in the Glass Bead Game. But it was a good lesson in finding truth amd humility in life, so like Rampa he has a wonderful legacy even though ficticious in a sense. So is the Bible which has had some good effects. But an awful lot of wars and bigotry unfortunately.

Thanks ES I liked to be reminded of Rampa. We should all write the same thing if it is true. Those far off hippy days were so inspiring for a while.

reve x

17-01-2012, 07:37 PM
You may have noticed the word ‘arch’ cropping up recently. I am going to do some old fashioned Emin dictionary work with it using the little Concise Oxford. First I note 4 unusual connections (a to d below)

(a) arch (1) chief, superior (archbishop, archdiocese, archduke) (2) pre-eminent esp. extremely bad (arch-fiend)
(b) arch-enemy Chief enemy; the Devil
(c) arch-fiend The Devil
(d) archon one of 9 chief magistrates in ancient Athens

They can mark our card. Arch is used for bad or draconian as much as anything.

Arcus in Latin means arc, hence bow (rain bow, bow and arrow)
Arcere means shut up, hence arcanus means arcane, mysterious secret.

In Greek though arkhos means chief, arkhaios means ancient, arkhaiologia means ancient history, arkhe means government, arkho means rule, arktos means bear & Ursa Major

A list of the words involved is interesting:

arc, Arcadia (rural paradise), arcane, arch, arch (teasing), Archaean (earliest geological record) archaeology, archaeopteryx (earliest fossil bird with a reptile tail) archaic, archangel (angel of highest rank; one of eighth order of nine fold celestial hierarchy), archbishop, archdeacon, archduke (son of Emperor. Reve: WW1 was caused by assassination of an Archduke in Serbia), archegonium (female sexual organ in mosses and ferns), archenemy, archer (…zodiacal sign), archetype (..primordial mental image inherited by all), archon, arch-fiend, archil (violet dye), archimandrite ( superior of large monastery), Archimedes, archepelago (Sea with many islands), architect, architrave (main beam resting on column or abacus), archive.

Whether that means anything or not it is interesting that the title archangel may well mean those angels who have ruled over us since time (recorded history) began, but does not necessary infer that they are on the right side does it?

Nor does it suggest that all archives are true just because they go back a long time, nor that arcane mystery schools are always on the right side either. Just a thought.

Reve x

18-01-2012, 08:40 AM
A previous post of mine

...... How do you know who are the ones (souls) you came here to find and work with this time?

Some claim it's like when you meet someone and get to know them it's as if you've already known them for a very long time, first meeting maybe a deep mutual attraction then a longing to be with that person.

You feel very comfortable around them. Maybe share the same interests.

I like your whole post very much Eternal Spirit, thank you. Make sure more people read it! I did feel this when I first met Orman and the Emin and Leo but unfortunately it did not last very long.

More arches: Monarch and Oligarch and their hierarchies, which are the problem. Obviously the arks of Noah and the Covenant. I note 'God' set a bow in the sky to seal his covenant with Noah. Leo said the rainbow was actually a dome but we only saw a segment. He also said the grass was green because the sun was yellow and the planet blue. I think the qualities of light were a bit arcane at the time.

Ethra and Orman are you talking yet, even if only to have a bitch about me? I have another message from Leo which is quite remarkable. Ethra you never accepted any of these messages which were why I first contacted you. How frustrating that has been for me and Leo who mistakenly chose me to pass them on thinking I might achieve that simple task. Still we live in hope

all the best all


18-01-2012, 10:33 AM
I want to paste a bit more on war gods and Azazel, the original war god and leader of the fallen angels. First a look at the original Aryan war god

Ares Basics
Son of Zeus and Hera, in Greek mythology, the shiny-armored, spear-carrying, 4-horse war chariot-riding Ares was god of slaughter, warfare, and warriors. Because Ares killed men, he was hated by the Greeks. As a result there are few Greek cults of Ares, with temples mainly on Crete and the Peloponnese. However, Ares was also known as a god of courage, the savior of cities and father of victory. Athena was also a goddess of war, but she was not associated with the wanton violence that followed in Ares' wake, and therefore was respected.
The Bad Company Ares Kept
The love goddess Aphrodite was Ares' lover. Their children, Deimos 'Terror' and Phobos 'Fear', accompanied Ares, and help explain why Ares' variety of warfare earned so much hatred. In addition, there is the notorious goddess of Discord (Eris), who used a golden apple to start the conflict among the gods that led to the Trojan War. She was another companion of Ares.
Ares and Aphrodite
Homer refers to an amusing story about how Hephaestus caught his wife Aphrodite and her lover Ares in a net. Instead of the other gods being outraged, there is the distinct sense that they were a bit jealous of Ares.
Attributes of Ares
Poisonous serpents, owls, vultures, and woodpeckers were sacred to Ares. Ares is said to be from Thrace. He is the mythological ancestor of the Thebans as a result of Cadmus' slaying of Ares' dragon offspring and marriage to Ares' daughter Harmonia. His iconography is not particularly distinctive. Early images have him bearded and later ones show him as a beardless youth.
The Romans called their highly respected war god and counterpart to Ares Mars. Mars was named as the father of Romulus and Remus.

Reve: Mars was the Roman martial god, who led their armies all over the world and took whatever they fancied. One can never have too much of Enoch’s wonderful book but here is where the war god is linked gto that old goat Azazel:

Book of Enoch

….. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them….. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'

Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.' And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth' shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.

And then shall the whole earth be tilled in righteousness, and shall all be planted with trees and 19 be full of blessing…

And Enoch went and said: 'Azazel, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds: And thou shalt not have toleration nor request granted to thee, because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness and unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.' Then I went and spoke to them all together, and they were all afraid, and fear and trembling seized them. And they besought me to draw up a petition for them that they might find forgiveness, and to read their petition in the presence of the Lord of heaven. For from thenceforward they could not speak (with Him) nor lift up their eyes to heaven for shame of their sins for which they had been condemned. Then I wrote out their petition, and the prayer in regard to their spirits and their deeds individually and in regard to their requests that they should have forgiveness and length. And I went off and sat down at the waters of Dan, in the land of Dan, to the south of the west of Hermon: I read their petition till I fell asleep. And behold a dream came to me, and visions fell down upon me, and I saw visions of chastisement, and a voice came bidding (me) I to tell it to the sons of heaven, and reprimand them.9 And when I awaked, I came unto them, and they were all sitting gathered together, weeping in 'Abelsjail, which is between Lebanon and Seneser, with their faces covered. And I recounted before them all the visions which I had seen in sleep, and I began to speak the words of righteousness, and to reprimand the heavenly Watchers.

Reve: Enoch also recounts though that the archangels Michael, Raphael and Uriel were ‘astonied’ at the severity of the judgement against their kin. Did they join the rebellion?

Jewish Encyclopedia: Azazel

The name of a supernatural being mentioned in connection with the ritual of the Day of Atonement (Lev. xvi.). After Satan, for whom he was in some degree a preparation, Azazel enjoys the distinction of being the most mysterious extrahuman character in sacred literature. Unlike other Hebrew proper names, the name itself is obscure.
—Biblical Data:
In Lev. xvi. the single allusion to Azazel is as follows: On the tenth day of Tishri (see Atonement Day) the high priest, after first performing the prescribed sacrifices for himself and his family, presented the victims for the sins of the people. These were a ram for a burnt offering, and two young goats for a sin-offering. Having brought the goats before Yhwh at the door of the tabernacle, he cast lots for them, the one lot "for Yhwh" and the other "for Azazel." The goat that fell to Yhwh was slain as a sin-offering for the people. But the goat of Azazel (now usually known as the "scapegoat") was made the subject of a more striking ceremony. The high priest laid his hands upon its head and confessed over it the sins of the people. Then the victim was handed over to a man standing ready for the purpose, and, laden as it was with these imputed sins, it was "led forth to an isolated region," and then let go in the wilderness.
J. Jr. J. F. McC.—In Biblical, Apocryphal, and Rabbinical Literature:
The Rabbis, interpreting "Azazel" as "Azaz" (rugged), and "el" (strong), refer it to the rugged and rough mountain cliff from which the goat was cast down (Yoma 67b; Sifra, Aḥare, ii. 2; Targ. Yer. Lev. xiv. 10, and most medieval commentators).Most modern scholars, after having for some time indorsed the old view, have accepted the opinion mysteriously hinted at by Ibn Ezra and expressly stated by Naḥmanides to Lev. xvi. 8, that Azazel belongs to the class of "se'irim," goat-like demons, jinn haunting the desert, to which the Israelites were wont to offer sacrifice (Lev. xvii. 7 [A. V. "devils"]; compare "the roes and the hinds," Cant. ii. 7, iii. 5, by which Sulamith administers an oath to the daughters of Jerusalem. The critics were probably thinking of a Roman faun).
Azazel Personification of Impurity.
Far from involving the recognition of Azazel as a deity, the sending of the goat was, as stated by Naḥmanides, a symbolic expression of the idea that the people's sins and their evil consequences were to be sent back to the spirit of desolation and ruin, the source of all impurity. The very fact that the two goats were presented before Yhwh before the one was sacrificed and the other sent into the wilderness, was proof that Azazel was not ranked with Yhwh, but regarded simply as the personification of wickedness in contrast with the righteous government of Yhwh. The rite, resembling, on the one hand, the sending off of the epha with the woman embodying wickedness in its midst to the land of Shinar in the vision of Zachariah (v. 6-11), and, on the other, the letting loose of the living bird into the open field in the case of the leper healed from the plague (Lev. xiv. 7), was, indeed, viewed by the people of Jerusalem as a means of ridding themselves of the sins of the year. So would the crowd, called Babylonians or Alexandrians, pull the goat's hair to make it hasten forth, carrying the burden of sins away with it (Yoma vi. 4, 66b; "Epistle of Barnabas," vii.), and the arrival of the shattered animal at the bottom of the valley of the rock of Bet Ḥadudo, twelve miles away from the city, was signalized by the waving of shawls to the people of Jerusalem, who celebrated the event with boisterous hilarity and amid dancing on the hills (Yoma vi. 6, 8; Ta'an. iv. 8). Evidently the figure of Azazel was an object of general fear and awe rather than, as has been conjectured, a foreign product or the invention of a late lawgiver. Nay, more; as a demon of the desert, it seems to have been closely interwoven with the mountainous region of Jerusalem and of ancient pre-Israelitish origin.
Leader of the Rebellious Angels.
This is confirmed by the Book of Enoch, which brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels, located, obviously in accordance with ancient folk-lore, on Mount Hermon as a sort of an old Semitic Blocksberg, a gathering-place of demons from of old (Enoch xiii.; compare Brandt, "Mandäische Theologie," 1889, p. 38). Azazel is represented in the Book of Enoch as the leader of the rebellious giants in the time preceding the flood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of mail, and women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and painting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of witchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity; until at last he was, at the Lord's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and chained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Duduael (= Beth Ḥadudo), where he is to abide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment, when he will be cast into the fire to be consumed forever (Enoch viii. 1, ix. 6, x. 4-6, liv. 5, lxxxviii. 1; see Geiger, "Jüd. Zeit." 1864, pp. 196-204). The story of Azazel as the seducer of men and women was familiar also to the rabbis, as may be learned from Tanna d. b. R. Yishma'el: "The Azazel goat was to atone for the wicked deeds of 'Uzza and 'Azzael, the leaders of the rebellious hosts in the time of Enoch" (Yoma 67b); and still better from Midrash Abkir, end, Yalḳ., Gen. 44, where Azazel is represented as the seducer of women, teaching them the art of beautifying the body by dye and paint (compare "Chronicles of Jerahmeel," trans. by Gaster, xxv. 13). According to Pirḳe R. El. xlvi. (comp. Tos. Meg. 31a), the goat is offered to Azazel as a bribe that he who is identical with Samael or Satan should not by his accusations prevent the atonement of the sins on that day.
The fact that Azazel occupied a place in Mandæan, Sabean, and Arabian mythology (see Brandt, "Mandäische Theologie," pp. 197, 198; Norberg's "Onomasticon," p. 31; Reland's "De Religione Mohammedanarum," p. 89; Kamus, s.v. "Azazel" [demon identical with Satan]; Delitzsch, "Zeitsch. f. Kirchl. Wissensch. u. Leben," 1880, p. 182), renders it probable that Azazel was a degraded Babylonian deity. Origen ("Contra Celsum," vi. 43) identifies Azazel with Satan; Pirḳe R. El. (l.c.) with Samael; and the Zohar Aḥare Mot, following Naḥmanides, with the spirit of Esau or heathenism; still, while one of the chief demons in the Cabala, he never attained in the doctrinal system of Judaism a position similar to that of Satan.

Reve: I don’t know if any of you made it here but that last paragraph says a lot so I will repeat it.

Azazel occupied a place in Mandæan, Sabean, and Arabian mythology (see Brandt, "Mandäische Theologie," pp. 197, 198; Norberg's "Onomasticon," p. 31; Reland's "De Religione Mohammedanarum," p. 89; Kamus, s.v. "Azazel" [demon identical with Satan]; Delitzsch, "Zeitsch. f. Kirchl. Wissensch. u. Leben," 1880, p. 182), renders it probable that Azazel was a degraded Babylonian deity.

Reve: ie the spirit that Gurdjieff raised with the resulting havoc in our world over the last hundred years. It really is time to disarm him.

Reve x

18-01-2012, 10:38 AM
Somewhere in my vast bag of old audio cassettes that i will probably never look through again is a curiosity. In the 80's I recorded a Radio 4 programme which played an old pre WW2 tape. They were in Egypt in the 30's and had Tutankhamun's two war trumpets. A guardsman tried to put his modern trumpet mouthpiece in one of them but it was ill fitting and the ancient horn shattered. They repaired that in time but just to ensure we were not let down he then blew the other one. It is an extremely eery sound. The commentator told us that this particular horn was used to summon the 'dogs of war'. It certainly achieved that!

reve x

18-01-2012, 11:24 AM
By the way am I the only one to remember Leo discussing eye makeup and using malachite like the Ancient Egyptians?

I recall Pilgrim training his Ceremonials in the Persian (Immortals) marching!

But really I wanted to add that our culture has been deeply enriched by the arts taught to us by those 'angels'. The problem really is the competitive, sexist and warlike attitude that came with it. To blame Azazel for everything is unfair but he has kindly agreed to be the scapegoat for all the others. This has an echo of the Messiah taking on the sins of the world and would justify any life. However I cannot think of any other life that would take such a thing on. No wonder those archangels held him in such high regard. But the Lord of Spirits has to do something for the billions of innocents (including animals) caught up in this 'rebellion'. As far as any justification for the human is concerned they are the most important element. The cost in lives and suffering.


18-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Leo used to tell the story of his dad and a man called Evans. One day his Dad met an old friend and asked him how he was. Terrible said the man and then showed him some large melanomas which he said he had all over his body and there was nothing that the doctors could do. Leo's dad to his surprise saw the man some time later and again asked him how he was doing. Absolutely fine was the reply. So what about those melanomas asked his dad. Ah, said the man, I went to see Evans that healer in the Finchley Road and he told me he could sort them out. Leo's dad was fascinated. He discovered that Evans had put cornflower oil on the melanomas, which was extremely painful, but he had wrapped some leaves (cannot remember which) over the lumps which helped. The lumps vanished and Leo's dad wasted no time in contacting Evans himself. He then compiled a book of the cures and treatments that Evans was performing and in great excitement took it down to the BMA. They did not want to know.

I told a friend of mine this tale. He is a senior oncologist in London now but was then a young registrar. He was not in the least surprised. That is not to say he believed in the cures, but accepted that orthodox medicine was not very interested in quack cures. Today most Chinese remedies have been analysed and substances from yew trees heal our cancers, and from pine trees reduce our cholesterol. That is really though because pharmaceutical companies want to clone, or copy chemically, everything possible that may have some remedial effect, should it seem a profitable thing to do. But still they resent homoeopathy, even though it is on the NHS. And think herbalism dangerous, Chinese Medicine even more so, and natural healing nonsense. I would still prefer an orthopdox doctor at my bedside if I was ill of course.

What Leo's tale, if true, tells us is that it is in his genes, and Orman and Peter's too. Those angels taught us the use of healing herbs and healing arts too. Where would we be without them?

reve x

18-01-2012, 08:51 PM
Hi reve,

Some very fascinating stuff here! Keep up the good work!


19-01-2012, 11:13 AM
I am not abridging this as we are all adults here and every word resonates:


You may not know but during WW2 all church b ells were silenced and they were to be used only to signify invasion. Centuries ago the Ottoman Empire also silenced the bells and they had to use an instrument called the Semantron.

Wiki: The semantron is made of a long, well-planed piece of timber, usually heart of maple (but also beech), from 12 feet (3.5 m) and upwards in length, by 1½ feet (45 cm) broad, and 9 inches (25 cm) in thickness. Of Levantine and Egyptian origin, its use flourished in the Greece and on Mount Athos before spreading among Eastern Orthodox in what are now Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic of Macedonia. It both predates and substitutes for bells (first introduced to the East in 865 by the Venetians, who gave a dozen to Michael III), being used to call worshipers to prayer. They are sometimes made of iron or brass (ἁγιοσίδηρα, hagiosidera / клепало, klepalo); formed of slightly curved metal plates, these give out a sound not unlike that of a gong

In the wooden form, at the centre of the instrument's length, each edge is slightly scooped out to allow the player to grasp it by the left hand, while he holds a small wooden (or sometimes iron) mallet in the right, with which he strikes it in various parts and at various angles, eliciting loud, somewhat musical sounds (κροῦσμα, krousma). Although simple, the instrument nonetheless produces a strong resonance and a variety of different intonations, depending on the thickness of the place struck and the intensity of the force used, so that quite subtle results can be obtained. A metal semantron, smaller than those of wood, is usually hung near the entrance of the catholicon (the monastery's main church)

A wooden semantron standing in the catholicon of Djurdjevi Monastery, Serbia
In the traditional monastic ritual, before each service the assigned monk takes a wooden semantron and, standing before the west end of the catholicon, strikes on it three hard and distinct blows with the mallet. He then proceeds round the outside of the church, turning to the four quarters and playing on the instrument by striking blows of varying force on different parts of the wood at uneven intervals, always winding up the "tune" with three blows similar to those at the beginning. Where there is a metal semantron, it is customary to strike it after the wooden one has been played.

The semantron is sounded every midnight for night offices (Midnight Office and Matins); this is done by the candle-lighter (κανδηλάπτης, kandilaptis). The semantra are usually suspended by chains from a peg in the proaulion (porch of the catholicon) or perhaps outside the refectory door, or on a tree in the courtyard.

While continuing in daily use at monasteries and sometimes featuring at funerals for their deep notes sounded at long intervals, as well as at other services, semantra have also played a part in Orthodox history. Their origin has been traced to at least the beginning of the 6th century, when the semantron had replaced the trumpet as the agent of convocation in the monasteries of Egypt, Palestine and Sinai; the rhythms struck on wood were soon vested with the aural memory of rhythmic blasts from earlier trumpets, an iconography of trumpeting that was eventually transferred to the zvon of Russian bells. The joy shown at Constantinople on the occasion of the translation of the relics of St. Anastasius was shown by the beating of xyla. In the Life of St. Theodosius the Archimandrite, by Moschus, one reads of some Eutychian monks of the party of Severus who, to disturb the saint at his devotion, "beat the wood" at an unwonted hour. St. Sabas rose for his devotions "before the hour of striking."

Larger and smaller semantra have been used, the smaller being sounded first, followed by the larger, then by those of iron. Theodore Balsamon, in a treatise on the subject, compares the sounding of the little, great and iron semantra to the preaching of the Law and of the Gospel, and the Last Trumpet. He also says that the congregations were summoned by three semantra in monasteries, and only by one large one in parish churches Moreover, he emphasises the persistence of the semantron in the East as a symbolic manifestation of difference with the Latin West (it remains unclear if some isolated practices in the West such as the Basque txalaparta are associated with the pre-schism liturgy); in Byzantium, the use of bells did not really gather momentum until after the Fourth Crusade, and at the Fall of Constantinople semantra still outnumbered bells by a five-to-one ratio. Semantra, from their size and shape, furnished formidable weapons, and were sometimes so used with fatal effect in a church brawl.

One reason why semantra continue to be used in southeastern Europe in particular is that the ringing of bells was outlawed during Ottoman times, forcing monasteries to use the semantron instead; the practice then became customary, though in Bulgaria it largely fell into disuse after independence.

In Russia, the techniques for playing the bilo were retained in bell-ringing rubrics, and it could still be heard in more remote, rural areas at the time of the Revolution. Today, its use is restricted to the Altai region and Siberia, as well as Old Believer sketes, the latter retaining the aloofness toward outsiders that has characterised the group since it broke away from the main body of the Russian Orthodox Church (see Raskol). Also, a semantron may be in use because the monastery cannot afford a bell.
The Syrian Orthodox hold the semantron in great veneration, based on an ancient tradition that Noah invented it. According to the story, God told him: "Make for yourself a bell of box-wood, which is not liable to corruption, three cubits long and one and a half wide, and also a mallet from the same wood. Strike this instrument three separate times every day: once in the morning to summon the hands to the ark, once at midday to call them to dinner, and once in the evening to invite them to rest". The Syrians strike their semantra when the liturgy is about to begin and when it is time to summon the people to public prayer. Their tradition also links the sound of the wood to the wood of the Garden of Eden that caused Adam to fall when he plucked its fruit, and to the nailing to the wood of the cross of Jesus Christ, come to atone for Adam's transgression.[

Reve: So they are saying they replaced the ‘trumpet’. But bells have an ancient origin further east and this is a curious article about the singing bowls from LamaLobsang Leshe:

19-01-2012, 11:16 AM

From their lofty and magical homeland Tibetan singing bowls have traveled across the Himalayas, through valleys, and along ancient trade routes. Brought back to the west by jet-age travelers, these mysterious objects have aroused interest and curiosity about their origin and traditional usage. Their story, however, has laid hidden like the mysterious Himalayas, obscured by clouds.
Due to the communist Chinese military occupation of Tibet in the 1950's, and the subsequent, almost total, destruction of its monasteries (and 1.2 million Tibetan people, many of them monks and nuns, that perished during and after that time), the esoteric knowledge of the Tibetan singing bowls has all but disappeared. And although it has been more than seventeen years since Tibetan singing bowls and their incredible sounds were first introduced to the western world, little has been written about them.
This lack of information, along with my own fascination of Tibetan singing bowls, led to my research while traveling and living in the Himalayas over the past ten years. However, after eight years of searching, I found that none of the monks or lay people that I talked to knew much about the Tibetan singing bowls. Therefore, I turned to my Tibetan brother-in-law, Lama Lobsang Molam, and asked him for his help.

Rain Gray: "I'm sitting in Kathmandu, Nepal. It's October 7, 1986. And I'm sitting with a friend of mine Lama Lobsang Molam, who is a monk at a monastery in Swyambu, Kathmandu, Nepal. And we're here to discuss the historical usage of singing bell bowls, and what we've been able to piece together after researching for eight years, and trying to discover what these things are. Lama Lobsang will be acting as translator because we have with us another monk who has knowledge of these singing bowls from Tibet, before the Chinese invaded Tibet. Lama Lobsang do you want to introduce yourself and our guest?"

Lama Lobsang Molam: "Yes, he's Lama Lobsang Leshe. Actually he came to Nepal from Tibet, before 1959. In Tibet he was a monk at Drepung Monastery, the biggest gompa in Tibet. There are four major monasteries in Tibet. One is Drepung Losel Ling, one is Drepung Gomang, one is Ngapa Dartsang, one is Dayang. There's four. So, he comes from Drepung Losel Ling."
Lama Lobsang Leshe: "Actually the Tibetan government, Ganden Potang, is a. . . first Ganden Potang become Drepung Monastery. Fifth Dalai Lama footnote 1 he built it in Drepung, his first palace is in Drepung Monastery. So that singing bowl lives behind this palace, we call Kungar Awa, his throne, like a singing bowl house, you know."
LLM: "Someone says, one older than him, a monk, he said 'This singing bowl came from India side and before this present Buddha', we call Sange Wasong, 'is for begging bowl this is.' At that time this singing bowl was used for a begging bowl of that previous Buddha."
RG: "Does that mean Shakyamuni Buddha? Or a previous incarnation?"
LLM: "No, no, no, a previous incarnation, the third Buddha. This present Buddha is fourth one, isn't it. The third Buddha, Wasong. 2 At that time they are using that singing bowl for begging bowl, and all the Arhats and disciples were using singing bowls for begging bowls. This doctrine is Buddha Shakyamuni's doctrine. At the present time we don't use singing bowls for begging bowls, we're using begging bowls made of iron, you know, they are not singing bowls."
RG: "Only made of iron? Not bell metal?" 3
LLM: "Yes. So, he said that that bowl is in Drepung Monastery, Tibet. On July fifteenth many Tibetans visit that singing bowl, also whole Drepung Monastery, all people are coming and visiting and making offerings to hear the singing bowl."
RG: "So this is a relic that they bring out at this time of year to show to the people?"

LLL: "They say this is a relic that came from India and was used by the previous Buddha, so this is a very precious relic. So, that's why everybody wants to listen to that singing bowl, the singing, you know, sound. So, many people are making offerings to this singing bowl, and offering money to that singing bowl. So, he said that if someone has pure or not pure karma, you know, if someone has negative karma, their self they have to round, they have to play it with a stick. If someone has a lot of negative karma, this bowl won't give any sound. It gives sound but, not so nice, it's very small and not clear. If the person who rings it has pure karma, it gives a lot of singing and a big sound, wang, wang, wang, wang, like this. It gives a big sound. So their saying this is the story of . . . their saying like this. Even he saw, you know. So in Tibet they have three singing bowls only."
RG: "Three of these relic singing bowls?"
LLL: "Yes, relics. One is in Drepung Monastery. One is in Narthang. Narthang is a big printing place."
RG: "Where their publishing and printing the books, the sutras. Kanjur?"
LLL: "In the west side of Tibet. One is Sakya Monastery. Also, they have one conch, a big conch, [which] comes from natural earth, you know, naturally. So they say if they're listening to that singing, or that sound, one who hears this sound never goes to Narak. Because of this . . ."
RG: "Now what is Narak?"
LLL: "Narak is hell. Hell realm or lower realm. Never goes to a lower . . ."
RG: " . . . level of existence?"
LLL: "Yes."

RG: "Then on hearing this sound, what will it do to these people? They get some experience?"
LLL: "Yes, they have a lot of . . . each people they will get in each different sound. Also some very high being lamas coming to listen to this singing bowl, and really they, sound is giving teaching, you know, about broadness and emptiness, many different teachings . . . Four Noble Truth teachings. Each they wanted to have that teaching gives by . . ."
RG: "So their getting some transmission, a teaching, from the sound vibration of this bowl?"
LLL: "Yes."
RG: "So what are they doing, are they playing this bowl and meditating on this sound?"
LLL: "Yes. Also, Drepung Monastery has a lot of scholars there, many Geshes, many, many, thousands of Geshes there. Their listening to this singing bowl, older monks going to see and listening to singing bowl.4 The monks are meditating on this sound. Because, actually this is . . . empty means . . . also singing bowl is empty. So, actually, all sound is giving each different teaching, you know. Singing bowl sound, or drum sound, or conch sound, or bell, or tingshaw, everything is giving sound is teaching like."
RG: "So, is this.. this sound can be compared to a mantra then? Would you say that?"
LLL: "Not exactly mantra. It's giving Voidness teaching."
RG: "Show him the inscription on this large bowl."
LLL: "Ganden Monastery has smaller than this. Smaller than this."
RG: "More round."
LLM: "Yes, more round."
RG: "Yes, I know that style. Once in a while you find that style, it's hard to find now. Here's a smaller one. Coming up more like this, and in the middle is a . . ."
LLM: "Yes."
RG: "What is the explanation for the fact that there are so many of these singing bowls? If from those three originals . . . do they think that a lot of other pieces were made following after those?"
LLM: "Yes."
RG: "There's been a lot of confusion in the West, because people have been trying to find out what these are for a number of years. And because of . . ."
LLM: "Actually, he said that now is many duplicates coming, and original is three in Tibet, he knows that. Now someone's making small, you know, for offering water 5, water set, still using for water offering set, not using for eating 6 , in Tibet side. Now in India and Nepal maybe their using, they don't know, and then so many duplicates coming they making. So now using for uh, maybe their cooking bowl, or . . ."
RG: "Because they don't know."
LLM: "Yes, they don't know. Actually this is only for sound. Now, he said that, in India during Buddha Shakyamuni's life time. Because big one, very big and for singing. When many monks have to make a puja, or meeting, or something, at that time at first they use a gong, for gonging. Boom, boom. Then all the monks are coming. If someone has 'god ear', I mean that Arhat has perfect ear. If they are far away, even they can listen."
RG: "So they have the ability to hear this sound at great distances."

LLM: "Yes. From far away they come to Buddha's place. Even sometime it's giving sound naturally, you know, maybe winds or . . ."
RG: "Some vibration."
LLM: "Yes, vibration. Big winds coming, it's giving sound. Actually it can be by Buddha, you know Buddha's action. He's . . . when he's meditating . . . his action, you know, giving to the sound."
RG: "Through his energy . . ."
LLM: " . . . energy, goes to this sound. Goes to singing bowl, or drum, and it's giving sound. And all gods, and higher beings, all the disciples can hear this giving teaching on this sound, meditation on this sound. So there, each different beings have different teachings by this sound. Yes, sometimes Buddhas don't give teachings by speech from mouth, you know, from heart, all energy goes to that singing things are giving sound. So those sounds are also Buddha's action or Buddha's energy giving teaching. Sometimes Buddhas don't act by physical body but he's giving by energy."
RG: "Transmission through other means."
LLM: "Transmission to other beings."
RG: "Now the Karmapa, when he was alive, heard a group of Westerners playing these singing bowls, they played for him. And the Karmapa himself, he said that this sound of the singing bowl is the sound of the Void 7. What do you think he meant by that?"
LLM: "Most people they don't know, just their listening for sound. Someone who has emptiness, meditation, samadhi, definitely they get teaching from those singing bowls."
RG: "So you think these singing bowls were made in eastern Tibet, near the Chinese border, what previously was the Chinese border?"
LLM: "Chinese border. Lama Leshe says that this quality is very top quality, many different jewels are inside, gold, silver, so many different jewels are mixed in this. Before they had one set of offering bowls, we call 'Mego Gutsag'. If we see like this nine heads, it's really very valuable."
RG: "And what would these heads be?"
LLM: "They say 'Mego Gutsag'. They had two factories there, one is in Jang and one is in Hor. Jang made its sign, nine head is the sign of Jang, from that factory. Hor has most . . . Hor their making so many beating marks, so that means it's made from Hor."
RG: "This nine head, this would be cut into the metal? How is it put in the metal? It's like the maker's sign, right?"
LLM: "No, no. If you look at it from the side it looks like nine, nine heads, one on top of the other. We can see them, very smooth. One have like this, one has like this. So nine is, we can see . . ."
RG: "Like on Padmasambhava's staff, how they have the three heads, one on top of the other."
LLM: "Yes, yes."
RG: “I noticed he was just looking at Buddhists, young people and very old people, everybody is attracted to this sound. And specifically, they can't exactly say why, but they like to hear this sound. So this is very appreciated in the Western world.
Now that the Dharma is becoming so strong in the Western world my intuitive feeling is that, somehow, this sound has some importance for the world today. That maybe in this time, it has been written that things will become more difficult, that one race of people will try to take over the world. And that the enlightened beings will then gather in this place Shambhala. I think there's kind of a connection to this sound and Shambhala. That's my feeling, I don't know. I think that somehow the ringing of these bells, of this sound, will somehow gather that positive energy, that force, you see, in order to fight back against those people who are trying to destroy the world."
LLM: "Yes."
RG: "If this is the sound of the Void, and the sound of the Dharma, then in ringing these bells this is bringing the force of the Dharma . . ."
LLM: "If somebody has seeds of Dharma, Westerner or Easterner, doesn't matter, you know . . ."
RG: "Then this will awaken that seed, this sound?"
LLM: "Yes, if so Dharma goes to the West, Guru Padmasambhava said that 'Dharma goes to West' means that definitely they have seeds. Of course, you know, all sentient beings have enlightened beings seeds, nature of Dharma, of Buddha, you know, really. So, before all teaching is Asia, most teachings in Asia. So, actually, yes, yes. Also, Buddha is not in the world now, this world. So many other worlds his presentation now, he's giving teaching. So, Buddha is not here, but his Dharma is here. So, singing bowl can give teaching to someone who has the seeds of Dharma. Each sentient being has many different natures, many different 'ears'. That's why, yes of course, singing bowl can give you Dharma. Really have that connection of that Buddha or Shambhala, same you know, really connection of singing bowl or those sounds connection to the Shambhala. Means singing bowl sound gives you teaching then you can go to Shambhala. That is really the connection.this bowl for something. He was looking to see if he could see anything there? He was looking at the bottom, examining the bottom very carefully. A lot of these bowls being very old and worn . . . the beating marks."
LLM: "Yes, beating marks. It definitely comes from Hor because of the beating marks."
RG: "So this was previously a famous metal working center before the Chinese invaded?"
LLM: "Famous before the Chinese invaded Tibet. Hor was famous. Nobody can reproduce this quality."
RG: "So do you think that this technique, who ever had the secret of making them, is now lost?"
LLM: "I think so. Very long time ago."
RG: "How old is he, Lama Lobsang Leshe, actually? Does he know approximately how old he is?"
LLM: "Seventy."
RG: "Because in our inquiries, of trying to get this information on Tibetan singing bowls, originally we asked Ama-la, and she also . . . How old is Ama-la now?"
LLM: "Fifty-eight."
RG: "I've been trying to find out any information about these singing bowls for over eight years now. And inquiring here in Asia in many places, researching in books and libraries, in the great museums of the world . . ."
LLM: "When he was young, he had many teachers older than him, they said it, so he heard, you know. They had one set of seven singing bowls, nine headed, they call Jang. They said it's really valuable, and be careful, don't touch to child, you know. If they broke, it's very difficult to get. Because he said that at that time there's four kings ruling in Tibet side. After that they made Jang and Hor."
RG: "At this time I'm wondering what is the significance that this singing bowl and this sound is going to the West. Padmasambhava said that 'When the iron bird flies, the Dharma will be spread to the West.' So, I've been feeling for many years now that somehow this sound is important for the world because the sound is the sound of the Dharma. And it carries the Dharma, whether people realize it or not, because in my experience with many types of people, whether Buddhists or non- Now Buddha is not here but singing bowl is. Someone who can play the singing bowl, really, immediately you can get Buddha's teaching. Then you can meditate on this teaching, or sound, with bell you can become enlightened. Singing bowl sound, and bell sound, and tingshaw sound is incredible really. Not like those ordinary sounds."
RG: "Yes, yes, that's what I've been feeling all along. Because the sounds of these instruments are unlike any other instrument in the world. Quite an incredible quality."
LLM: "That's why the bell, those singing bowls are . . . just ordinary people didn't make them you know, they come from Buddha's side. Someone who hears it ring, a formless being, or a form being, or . . . doesn't matter, you know. If you ring a bell, if you didn't get any teaching but other beings . . . in this house has many sentient beings also without form can hear it, the sound. And they can have teaching."
RG: "So it not only affects the person who's using it, but also it affects all of the surrounding area. And actually the sound carries very far even when we can't physically hear it."
LLM: "Yes. Also, when we play the tingshaw all spirits, hungry ghosts are coming, but we didn't see those beings. From thousands of kilometers away, they can hear this sound, coming saying 'Oh, something's there!' So, the sound is incredible."
RG: "So we can say that these things are tools, they are tools for transformation, to transform our ordinary being into a higher realm of the Buddha nature. We can say that?"
LLM: "Yes, we can say that. Also, you know outside of the Buddha someone without speech giving teaching, what is this you know? By action, body action8 only, they didn't speak, those Arhats you know. Buddha was not in the world time, Arhat is coming. They the Arhats giving teaching, but without sound, just showing body. Someone who has seeds they are, immediately they get teaching. So same, same way. If you are ringing the singing bowl, if you didn't get teaching, but someone get teaching. So, why we made those singing bowls, why we make a bells, and cymbals, drums, conch, why you know? Each things giving different teachings. Also conch gives you lot of big voice giving."
RG: "Big sound, powerful sound."
LLM: "Sound, you know, big sound. Conch sound is only for Dharma using, you know. For calling monks, or making pujas. So, we call that Dharmachakra, sound of conch, we say like this. Even Buddha Shakyamuni after his enlightenment, for 49 days he didn't give any teaching. He knows he's enlightened but sentient beings they didn't know he's enlightened. So, he's really sad, you know. He thought 'Now I better go to the forest, nobody knows my truth.' So the head of the gods, and king of the gods said: 'Please give teaching'. And he's giving conch, you know, and that means Dharmachakra. Also, he plays that a waaaaaa conch, giving sound that means Dharmachakra giving. That's why he's giving . . . otherwise he can give another or something you know. Because Dharmachakra . . . conch sound is Dharmachakra." 9
RG: "So, in the tradition of Buddhism even from the very beginning, from the first teaching of Buddha, there is that tradition of using sound in connection with teaching?"
LLM: "Yes. So he gave the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, the first teaching. Also, if we play the singing bowl some Arhat is here, really they can have many teachings, emptiness and broadness, very deep teachings they're having. Of course. Actually, this sound wang, wang, wang, wang, wang, means emptiness, empty, empty, empty, empty. Emptiness teaching is the top of teaching, Buddha's essence. Essence of Buddha's teaching, yes, Buddha's teaching. Means . . . what does essence of Buddha's teaching mean? This is Emptiness teaching, top one. If one who has bodhicitta already, if you get bodhicitta already, but you didn't get Emptiness teaching, you never get enlightened, you'll never get enlightenment."
LLL: "Guru Urgyen Rinpoche says that one time coming his text, teachings, putting in the ground. One time coming, then one guy coming, one being's coming to take this . . ."
RG: "To rediscover this hidden text." 10
LLM: "Hidden text, means yes."
RG: "So in a way this could be a rediscovery of something that's been hidden for some years now. Because it seems that a lot of people that I've asked don't know about this."
LLM: "They don't know."
RG: "So maybe in this present age this is the time when this is right for this to be rediscovered."
LLM: "They don't know but if they are hearing this sound then they like it. Something happy, you know."
RG: "Yes, yes, there's an attraction there."
LLM: "Really. It's a very peaceful sound giving. That is, you know, Guru Rinpoche said already before."
RG: "So actually these are very precious things that we have to preserve very carefully."
LLM: "Yes. So singing bowl who discovered in West? Who? It's just natural. Tibet's time's coming. Otherwise who will discover singing bowls sound? Natural coming, even more and more now, increasing Dharma and all singing bowls sound, meditation, all goes to Dharma in West."
RG: "Very interesting. Well I'm hoping that at sometime somebody will find some of these hidden texts that will really tell us how to use this singing bowl, in the mean time we just kind of have to sit peacefully, sit quietly, and let our intuitive feelings tell us how to use them."
LLM: "Also, maybe after we go to Tibet, you go to Tibet side. Also one relic singing bowl is still there now."
RG: "Yes, I'd like to see that."
LLM: "Yes, you can see this and you can ask to those who are in charge of singing bowl. Also, most older monks they knows about singing bowls. This time, like me the young monks, they don't know. They say 'What is this?' you know."
RG: "Yes, that's why it's been so difficult to find this information."

#1 Dalai Lama literally means "Ocean of Wisdom." He is the spiritual and temporal leader of Tibet. The Dalai Lama is a God King, being the physical manifestation of Avalokitesvara (Tibetan: Chenrezig), God of Compassion. The present Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyaltso, is the 14th incarnation. 2 According to the Tibetan Mahayana tradition, there have been many Buddhas in the past, and many more to come in the future. The next coming Buddha is known as "Maitreya". It is interesting to note that one translation of the name Maitreya is "harmonic resonance"!
#3 According to Tibetan sources singing bowls are reputed to be made of an alloy consisting of (depending upon who one is talking to) five, seven, or nine different metals. Legends state that one of these metals is meteorite iron. It has been hypothesized that this use of meteorite iron may be one of the reasons why Tibetan bells have such amazing sounds. As the meteorites found in Tibet have traveled through a thinner layer of oxygen there would have been less burn-up of the meteorite iron, hence the meteorites found there may have a quality different than any others found in the world.
#4 Before this interview, Lama Leshe stated that he had seen over four thousand monks at one time playing singing bell bowls during a religious ceremony at Drepung Monastery.
#5 This refers to the Tibetan custom of offering water placed in seven bowls on the alter each morning. This is done both in monasteries and in homes, as each household has it's own alter. Although it is conceivable that small singing bowls could be used for water offerings, the traditional shape of water offering bowls is much different than that of any singing bowl.
#6 While doing research throughout the Himalayas over the last nine years have also asked many Nepalese about the usage of singing bell bowls. A number of times the persons questioned have stated that these bowls were used as eating bowls. It seems that the Nepalese not knowing of the Tibetan traditional usage of the bowls, as instruments for producing sound, simple put them to use as utilitarian objects.
#7 According to Henry Wolf. See album notes, TIBETAN BELLS II, by Henry Wolf and Nancy Hennings, (c) 1979, Pacific Arts Records.
#8 This refers to the usage of hand and body gestures (Sanskrit: mudra) symbolic of different Dharma concepts. This is similar to using sign language.
#9 Dharmachakra means "the wheel of the Law". This refers to the first teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha (see Four Noble Truths) at which time he put the wheel (chakra) of the law (Dharma) into motion.
#10 Hidden texts are one of the eighteen types of hidden treasure (Tib. derma) which Padmasambhava is said to have hidden inside caves, mountains, etc. These texts contain valuable teachings and information which were hidden in order to preserve them for a future time when they would be needed.

Reve: I do not apologise for the length but my cutting and pasting might be out as it was hard to copy. Shambala!

19-01-2012, 01:01 PM
wiki:The gong has been an ancient Chinese custom for many eras. They were first used to signal peasant workers in from the fields as some gongs are loud enough to hear from up to 50 miles away. In Japan, they are used to start the beginning of sumo wrestling contests.

Large flat gongs may be 'primed' by lightly hitting them before the main stroke, greatly enhancing the sound and causing the instrument to "speak" sooner, with a shorter delay for the sound to "bloom". Keeping this priming stroke inaudible calls for a great deal of skill. The smallest suspended gongs are played with bamboo sticks, or even western-style drumsticks. Contemporary & avant-garde music, where different sounds are sought, will often use friction mallets (producing squeals & harmonics), bass bows (producing long tones and high overtones), and various striking implements (wood/plastic/metal) to produce the desired tones.

Rock gongs are large stones struck with smaller stones to create a metallic resonating sound.

reve: So the sound carries! But it also carries to the other worlds. This is the bit thyat is of interest really.

(It has started snowing!)

Most commonly, and as per its colloquial name, bell metal was used for the casting of bells (see Bellfounding). Functional bells, with the intention of producing sound, are usually made by casting bell metal, a high-copper alloy of bronze, with approximately a 4:1 ratio of copper to tin (78% copper, 22% tin). Both tin and copper are relatively soft metals that will deform on striking (though tin to a lesser extent than copper), alloying the two elements creates a metal which is harder and less ductile and also one with more elasticity than the use of just one of the metals alone.[1] This metal combination produces a tough, long-wearing material that is resistant to oxidation and subject only to an initial surface weathering. Verdigris forms a protective patina on the surface of the bell which coats it against further oxidation.[2] Bell metal of these ratios has been used for more than 3,000 years, and is known for its resonance and "attractive sound." This allows for a better bell resonance and causes the bell to "vibrate like a spring when struck", a necessary quality as the clapper may strike the bell at speeds of up to 600 miles per hour. The forces holding the tin and copper together cause vibrations rather than cracks when the bell is struck which creates a resonant tone.

In Russia, church bells are commonly cast with a unique mixture of copper and tin, often with silver added, to produce their unique sonority and resonance, mastered early in Russian Christian history. (wiki)

Gong metal: Gongs vary in diameter from about 20 to 40 inches, and they are made of bronze containing a maximum of 22 parts of tin to 78 of copper; but in many cases the proportion of tin is considerably less. Such an alloy, when cast and allowed to cool slowly, is excessively brittle, but it can be tempered and annealed in a peculiar manner. If suddenly cooled from a cherry-red heat, the alloy becomes so soft that it can be hammered and worked on the lathe, and afterwards it may be hardened by re-heating and cooling it slowly. In these properties it will be observed, the alloy behaves in a manner exactly opposite to steel, and the Chinese avail themselves of the known peculiarities for preparing the thin sheets of which gongs are made. They cool their castings of bronze in water, and after hammering out the alloy in the soft state, harden the finished gongs by heating them to a cherry-red and allowing them to cool slowly. These properties of the alloy long remained a secret, said to have been first discovered in Europe by Jean Pierre Joseph d'Arcet at the beginning of the 19th century. Riche and Champion are said to have succeeded in producing tam-tams having all the qualities and timbre of the Chinese instruments. The composition of the alloy of bronze used for making gongs is stated to be as follows: Copper, 76.52; Tin, 22.43; Lead, 0.26; Zinc, 0.23; Iron, 0.81. The gong is beaten with a round, hard, leather-covered pad, fitted on a short stick or handle. It emits a peculiarly sonorous sound, its complex vibrations bursting into a wave-like succession of tones, sometimes shrill, sometimes deep. In China and Japan it is used in religious ceremonies, state processions, marriages and other festivals; and it is said that the Chinese can modify its tone variously by particular ways of striking the disk.

'with silver bells and cockile shells...'

A gold bell found in Jerusalem last year thought to belong to the high priest:
The biblical Book of Exodus mentions tiny golden bells sewn onto the hem of the robes of Temple priests, along with decorative pomegranates. The artisans in charge of making the priestly clothes and implements, according to the Bible, "made bells of pure gold, and attached the bells between the pomegranates all around the hem of the robe between the pomegranates."

It was not know whether this bell was attached to a priestly garment. It is engraved with a pattern of circular channels starting at the top.

A silver bell: The "Silver Bell" is one of the most ancient Racing Trophies in Britain, yet its origins are disputed. The 'Bell' disappeared without trace for many years. It was re-discovered in 1836 in Lanark Town Council's vaults when they were in the process of moving to their new offices in Hope Street.

Many believed 'the Bell' to have been gifted from King William 'The Lion' of Scotland in approximately 1165. If this were the case, the trophy would be the oldest in the world! King William often stayed at Lanark Castle to participate in the local hunt and watch the racing on the moors.

Studies of the various hallmarks on the newly re-discovered 'Bell' linked them to silversmiths dating to the years 1587 and 1599. These do not automatically reflect the date of its actual creation...

More silver bells:

Bells of Wawel Cathedral » Silver Bells' Tower
Silver Bells TowerIt is the oldest preserved bell tower of the Wawel Cathedral. Its lower stone part, 12 m high, was built in the first half of the 12th century, together with the second cathedral, called Hermanowska (“of Herman”). Rectangular brick part of the tower with the room for the bells was added in the third quarter of the 14th century. In 1530 another storey was added and the tower received a decorative late gothic spire, which in 1769 was replaced by a pyramid roof.

There are three bells hanging in the tower:
The Maciek Bell1.The Big Bell, aka Goworek, Gąsiorek
Founded ca. 1423 by bishop Zbigniew Oleśnicki, one of the heroes of the battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg) of 1410, in later years made cardinal.
Diameter: 98 cm (38.5 in), weight: 732 kg (1613.8 lbs), Basic tone: A-flat

2.The Middle Bell, aka Nowak
Founded by a Cracow canon named Herman ca. 1271, during the reign of Duke Bolesław the Chaste and his wife, St Kinga (Cunegunda). It is the oldest of the bells of the Wawel Cathedral.
Diameter: 83 cm (32.6 in), weight 420 kg (926 lbs)

3.The Small Bell, aka Maciek
Founded by the Cracow Cathedral Chapter in 1669. It is the smallest and youngest of the bells of the Wawel Cathedral.
Diameter: 72 cm (28.3 in), weight 210 kg (463 lbs)

Old clappers of Silver BellsRINGING TIMES:
Mon-Fri 6:25 a.m.,12:00 p.m., 6:30 p.m.
Sundays and holidays 6:55 a.m.,12:00 p.m.,7:00 p.m.

These ancient clappers for centuries served Wawel Cathedral by producing the sound of the Silver Bells.
They are:
- The clapper of the Zbyszko bell, weighing 20 kg (44 lbs)
- The clapper of the Mieczysław bell, weighing 11 kg (24.2 lbs)
- The clapper of the Maciek bell, weighing 8.2 kg (18 lbs)

The final time these clappers struck the bodies of the bells was to summon the faithful to the Angelus prayer at noon of 4 May 2008, on the Ascension day.
These clappers were replaced by new ones during the renovation and modernisation of the Silver Bells’ Tower in May 2008.
ditional belief may not be unfounded. To my knowledge, it has never been disproved.

.....https://www.msu.edu/user/carillon/batmbook/chapter1.htm Of all religions, only Mohammedanism and Judaism have refrained from using bells. Mohammedans frowned on the bell's long association with pagan rites and beliefs, and in Judaic practice the shofar, or ram's horn, and the metal trumpet have always served.

Although Biblical references to bells are meager, their use on a high priest's robe is mentioned in Exodus 28:33-35. Clearly, this alluded to the crotal, a small round ball (gold in this instance) containing loose pellets. Of ancient origin, the crotal has remained unchanged over the years and is found throughout the world. Crotals are also suggested in the mention of "bells of the horses" in Zechariah 14:20, the only other definite Biblical reference to bells. Biblical mention of cymbals, on the other hand, occurs frequently.

In the Middle East the Egyptians, Assyrians, Jews, and others made various use of bells. The ruins of Nineveh, at Nimrud, have yielded about eighty small bronze bells dating about 655-612 B.C. The Roman historian Flavius Josephus wrote that King Solomon had sizable bells of gold placed atop his temple to drive off the birds. Golden bells adorned the mules used in the funeral procession of Alexander the Great.

So why am I going on about bells?

reve x

19-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Dunstan is the greatest of saints:

Yet he was enormously talented and able. He was a skilled musician, metalworker, and bell-maker. He was the advisor of kings and leader of Benedictine revival in England. And he “passed the early years of his life at Glastonbury where the memory of its past history, the old books which its library still contained and its yet living connexions with Irish scholarship offered him great opportunities.” (Peter Blair, Anglo-Saxon England)

Michael Wood, in his In Search of England, speculates that the later legends associated with Glastonbury, the stories of Avalon, Once-and-Future King Arthur, the Holy Grail, etc., got their start indirectly from St Dunstan. Wood suggests that St Dunstan’s leadership of the monastery, which eventually propelled Glastonbury into first rank among England’s great abbeys, along with his Benedictine emphasis on learning, planted the seeds of belief in its unique importance as a spiritual centre of the nation.

But perhaps St Dunstan’s contribution to English life is more in keeping with his self-portrait and is simpler, more humble, and more widespread than Wood implies or than his association with Anglo-Saxon royalty suggests. Among the products of the 10th century monastic reforms was a book that regulated life in English monasteries according to the Benedictine rule called Regularis Concordia. Remembering St Dunstan’s skill and delight in bell-making, we might note with gratitude his enduring influence the next time we hear the bells ringing from the parish church in some pretty English village, for, according to Peter Blair, there is “a sentence which recurs in the Regularis Concordia almost as a refrain,” and we might imagine that St Dunstan’s hand wrote it: “‘then all the bells shall peal.’”


Really? Leo as you may recall had King Arthur (not far from Dunstan) inventing church bells to keep away the inter-planetary slavers. Were these physical or spiritual one wonders or non-existant even?

Is there something special about Big Ben perhaps?

reve x

20-01-2012, 09:17 AM
I hope I am not thought to be spamming this thread. Chiron I also want to mention that that great centaur or satyr, Chiron, is the first recorded example of a bodhisattva. Someone who gives up Nirvana to work on this planet for humanity. There are very few, and far more working towards enlightenment are doing it for themselves and enter Nirvana on death (the arahats like Sakhyamuni's son). We should be so lucky to have this choice.

bells (all will become clear)

wikiA ghanta is an Indian bell used in Hindu rituals. The same term is also used to describe Buddhist bells.

DescriptionThe bell is generally made out of brass. A clapper is attached to the inside and the bell makes a high pitched sound when rung. The top of the bell handle is usually adorned with a brass figure - bells intended for use in the worship of Lord Shiva will have a figure of Lord Nandi, while those used in the worship of Lord Vishnu or his avatars as Rama, Narasimha or Krishna will have a figure of Garuda or Panchajanya shanka or Sudarshana Chakra.

Because the ghanta is believed to chase away asuras and summon the Devas (Gods), it is used in a lot of Hindu rituals such as puja. Generally the ghanta is held in the left hand during worship and rung continually while the various items are offered with the right hand. A second person may ring the ghanta if both hands are needed for the offering.

A bell hangs at the gate of many Hindu temples, which is rung at the moment one enters the temple.......

Singing bowls (also known as Tibetan Singing Bowls, rin gongs, Himalayan bowls or suzu gongs) are a type of bell, specifically classified as a standing bell. Rather than hanging inverted or attached to a handle, singing bowls sit with the bottom surface resting. The sides and rim of singing bowls vibrate to produce sound characterized by a fundamental frequency (first harmonic) and usually two audible harmonic overtones (second and third harmonic). According to singing bowl researcher Joseph Feinstein, singing bowls were traditionally used in Asia and the tradition of making sound with bronze bowls could go back 3,000 or more years to the bronze age.

Singing bowls are used worldwide for meditation, music, relaxation, personal well-being. They are used by a wide range of professionals, including health professionals, school teachers, musicians and spiritual teachers. Singing bowls are used in health care by psychotherapists, massage therapists, cancer specialists, stress and meditation specialists. They are used to help treat cancer patients and also for post traumatic stress disorder. They are popular in classrooms to help facilitate group activities and focus students' attention.

Singing bowls were historically made throughout Asia, especially Nepal, China and Japan. They are closely related to decorative bells made along the silk road from the Near East to Western Asia. Today they are made in Nepal, India, Japan, China and Korea. The best known types are from the Himalayan region and are often referred to as Tibetan singing bowls although any history in Tibet is disputable as there are none found there today.....The oral and written traditions from the Himalayan region are vast and largely unknown in the West. It is unknown whether there are any traditional texts about singing bowls. All known references to them are strictly modern. However, a few pieces of art dating from several centuries ago depict singing bowls in detail, including Tibetan paintings and statues. Some Tibetan rinpoches and monks use singing bowls in monasteries and meditation centers today. Singing bowls from at least the 15th century are found in private collections. The tradition may date significantly earlier since bronze has been used to make musical instruments for thousands of years. Bronze bells from Asia have been discovered as early as the 8th–10th century BC and singing bowls are thought to go back in the Himalayas to the 10th-12th century AD (Feinstein, 2011).

Perhaps the nearest a human comes to making this sound is by chanting OM. The Emin was scrupulous in cleaning electrically spaces that they used. This was done with incense, even torch beams to dispel anything hiding in dark corners, we used lavender oil etc. Sometimes even good old fashioned cleaning. I bet the old Emins still do this at home! We also used to make holy water (fizzed up slightly salted water perhaps with a dash of alcohol in it). Do they still do this at the Centres?

reve x

20-01-2012, 10:59 AM
this is what ushers like Leo and Orman would say sometimes, either because they had run out of anything more to add on a night or because we were dropping off. I dont mind a bit of overload and hope you agree. You can take what you like on the net when you want it which is the difference.

Titles like Rinpoche come up when Tibetan Buddhism is mentioned. If there is one truth we have to find out what it is, and how it translates in our experience not just language. Bells are a language of their own nsomething we have taken from 'above'. This is how other beings communicate and is called the music of the spheres.

wiki: Rinpoche or Rinboqê (Tibetan: རིན་པོ་ཆེ་, Wylie: rin-po-che, ZYPY: Rinboqê) is an honorific used in Tibetan Buddhism. It literally means "precious one," and is used to address or describe Tibetan lamas and other high-ranking or respected teachers. This honor is generally bestowed on reincarnated lamas, or Tulkus, by default. In other cases it is earned over time, and often bestowed spontaneously by the teacher's students.

Kang Rinpoche is the Tibetan name of Mount Kailash, sacred to Bön, Hinduism and Jainism as well as Buddhism. Kang is a Tibetan word for "snow peak" analogous to alp or himal.

Guru Rinpoche refers to Padmasambhava, the "Second Buddha", who brought Tantric Buddhism to Tibet.

Je Rinpoche refers to Je Tsongkhapa, the founder of the Gelug School.

The Rinpoches are 'recognised'. If you are not recognised do not panic it may be because you are hidden. The hidden masters (inc mistresses of course) are something else here and you may as well forget about them as they really are well hiddenm. But this is why there are so many stories about being hospitable to strangers lest they be angels. You should be whether they are angels or not.

Development is about fulfilling your potential. Monasteries helped seekers with their first hurdle. Giving up their family. Siddharata called hsi first son 'fetter' because he was born as he was leaving and he saw him as a 'soft fetter' stopping him from progressing. In his case he was 29 and married. If he can do it can we? he suggested that we all could.

wikiFollowing this incident, Gautama was famously seated under a pipal tree—now known as the Bodhi tree—in Bodh Gaya, India, when he vowed never to arise until he had found the truth. Kaundinya and four other companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After a reputed 49 days of meditation, at the age of 35, he is said to have attained Enlightenment. According to some traditions, this occurred in approximately the fifth lunar month, while, according to others, it was in the twelfth month. From that time, Gautama was known to his followers as the Buddha or "Awakened One" ("Buddha" is also sometimes translated as "The Enlightened One"). He is often referred to in Buddhism as Shakyamuni Buddha, or "The Awakened One of the Shakya Clan."

According to Buddhism, at the time of his awakening he realized complete insight into the cause of suffering, and the steps necessary to eliminate it. These discoveries became known as the "Four Noble Truths", which are at the heart of Buddhist teaching. Through mastery of these truths, a state of supreme liberation, or Nirvana, is believed to be possible for any being. The Buddha described Nirvāna as the perfect peace of a mind that's free from ignorance, greed, hatred and other afflictive states, or "defilements" (kilesas). Nirvana is also regarded as the "end of the world", in that no personal identity or boundaries of the mind remain. In such a state, a being is said to possess the Ten Characteristics, belonging to every Buddha.

You may note the multiples of 7 (49 & 35) whatever that implies.

Next we need to know if we are 'old souls' and reincarnates. I consider myself a new soul with everything to do in this life, but others have had their lives and have progressed, or regressed to this stage. If our instinct has ever been wrong we cannot really trust it can we so how do we do this?

Monastery or Nunnery life made it easy to give up our wordly lives. But habits die hard and we would still have out attatchments. Get annoyed if someone strayed into our little vegetable patch, jealous that we were not chosen to be abbot. But if we rose above all of this it would be clear for all to see.

But most of us live in 'life' and the Emin was our little monastery. When you graduate and go out into the world you start something rather different. It is still part of the road to enlightenment but that part where you need to do things for or by yourself. A lot of us are in this stage. We are connected obviously. It might not hurt to discuss how we are able to divine our futures and get counsel we can trust for our major decisions. The dalai lama uses doughballsoracles and sometimes dreams. We were given Tarot cards but I was always a bit suspicious of them and who they are dedicated or connected to. Leo advised we make our own and it was some of the best advice. Yours may be coffee grounds but over the years you wuill know if you can trust them or not.

However our choice to walk this path is always against our natural inclination to stay with family forever. That is another path where you put everything into your children.

better not overload you while I try to remember why i brought up the bells.


reve x

20-01-2012, 03:10 PM
Mingun Bell:
Mingun is located north of Mandalay, Burma and it is where the world's largest ringing bell can be found. The Mingun Bell weighs 90.55 metric tons.
Great Bell of Kyoto:
Inside the Chion-In Temple in Japan, the Great Bell of Kyoto can be found. It is the second-largest ringing bell in the world and weighs 74 tons.
Tsar Kolokol III:
Also known as the Tsar Bell. Considered the largest bell in the world, the Tsar Kolokol III is located in Moscow. It weighs 400,000 pounds and was cast in 1733 to 1735, however, it was never rung. It was damaged in a fire in 1737.
Liberty Bell:
This bell, which can be found in the Liberty Bell Center in Philadelphia, is a symbol of U.S.' freedom. Cast by the Whitechapel Bell Foundry, the Liberty Bell originally weighs 2,080 pounds. It cracked several times and was last heard in 1846 to honor George Washington's birthday. It has also been moved several times until 2003 when it was relocated to its current location.
World Peace Bell:
It is the largest swinging bell in the world; it weighs 66,000 pounds and is 12 feet in diameter. The World Peace Bell was cast in 1998 by the Verdin Company. It can be found at The Millennium Monument of Newport, Kentucky.
Big Ben:
This famous clock tower can be found at St. Stephen's Tower in London. The bell weighs 13 tons; both the clock and bell were installed in 1859. The British Broadcasting Corporation started airing the chimes of Big Ben in 1924.
Lutine Bell:
This bell was carried by a ship called La Lutine which sank off the Dutch Coast in 1799. The ships' cargo was insured by Lloyds Insurance. In 1859 the bell was found, it was moved several times until 1986 when it was moved to its current location at the lobby of Lloyds Insurance Office in London.
Pummerin Bell:
Famous bell in Austria and one of the biggest bells in Europe. It was built in 1711 and is a symbol of Vienna's victory over the Turks. It is located in the north tower of the St. Stephen's Cathedral at Stephansplatz in Vienna.
Sigismund Bell:
Also known as Zygmunt Bell, it can be found at the Wawel Cathedral in Krakow, Poland. It was cast in 1520 and weighs 18 metric tons.
Great Tom:
This bell weighs 7 tons and was originally located at Oseney Abbey. It is now situated at the Tom Tower of Christ Church in Oxford. The bell chimes 101 times every 9pm; originally it was to honor the 101 Oxford students at the time of its completion. http://musiced.about.com/od/musicinstruments/p/famousbells.htm

When I was a boy we spent our summer holidays about 7 miles from where we lived. On Sundays we could hear the bells of St Mary's Carisbrook as clear as day. Leo said that church towers were so designed to house elementals which were around 32 feet tall. Some say they were designed just to house bells. I think they did both provided the elementals were correctly called, like Pavlov's dogs, by a bell. Not that this is a general rule in churches or abbeys any more. Our church there had been a priory and had wonderful bells and practically the entire village trained to ring them. If you were not careful they could pull you up twenty feet or so, then drop you.

How could we tell if the elementals were there? I went back last year and met them for the first time in nearly 50 years. Like elephants they do not forget you. Lucky the people married in their presence, baptised or buried by a high priest there. Have you made any arrangements for your demise?

reve x

21-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Sogyal is no ordinary man I assure you, anymore than Leo or Gurdjieff were. (Sogyal was like Leo active in London in 1974). This is partly due to the fact that they all have followings, but also why. The Dalai Lama let Sogyal do something extraordinary, easy to pass over in his life, but very important to the occultist and those into rainbow bodies. So read on if interested:

Now this empowerment is best explained perhaps by more quotes and links but first I must point out that the 'pure visions' of the 5the Dalai were the visions of the man who had the real 5th Dalai (Dorje Sugden) murdered with a white ceremonial scarf shoved down his throat and took his place. Our current Dalai Lama is therefore in a line from the 5th, not I would conjecture from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd who I seem to recall were given the name Dalai Lama post humously - it was the title Genghis Khan took in 1206 when he conquered Mongolia and was revived by these lamas a few hundred years later.

Saman, Samaine and Sri Lanka crop up again.

This is the world of Tantra which is of course connected to sex and the man woman mystery etc.

The 8 emanations or manifestations that Sogyal was told to 'empower' in 1982by our current Dalai Lama are obviously also important:

I know it is hard going but the occult is mostly

reve x

Hi reve do u have any more thoughts or info on Sogyal Rinpoche?


22-01-2012, 09:42 AM
We saw Spielberg's War Horse last night in Glasgow and blow me if it does not more or less start with the war (WW1 in this case) and declaring that the bells will not ring again until it is over. Then I endured the Somme with its 600,000 men killed in a day, and finally the bells ringing on 11/11.

My day had started with Om being chanted next to me!

Sogyal, yes a lot of thoughts. He has an Easter retreat at a public school in North London for those very interested in him. More later

reve x

22-01-2012, 11:42 AM
Hi Feralgoose Sogyal and the current Dalai Lama, also the 5th who had Dorje Shugden killed, are all masters of Dzogchen. I will try to use English descriptions where possible. This is to do with contacting your own primordial nature and is the highest of the teachings. It leads to Rigpa which is the name Sogyal gave to his schools in the West. It also leads to a rainbow body. i will post a little wiki:

According to Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, Dzogchen (Rdzogs chen or Atiyoga) is the natural, primordial state or natural condition of the mind, and a body of teachings and meditation practices aimed at realizing that condition. Dzogchen, or "Great Perfection", is a central teaching of the Nyingma school also practiced by adherents of other Tibetan Buddhist sects. According to Dzogchen literature, Dzogchen is the highest and most definitive path to enlightenment.

From the perspective of Dzogchen, the ultimate nature of all sentient beings is said to be pure, all-encompassing, primordial awareness or naturally occurring timeless awareness. This intrinsic awareness has no form of its own and yet is capable of perceiving, experiencing, reflecting, or expressing all form. It does so without being affected by those forms in any ultimate, permanent way. The analogy given by Dzogchen masters is that one's nature is like a mirror which reflects with complete openness but is not affected by the reflections, or like a crystal ball that takes on the colour of the material on which it is placed without itself being changed. The knowledge that ensues from recognizing this mirror-like clarity (which does not have an intrinsic existence in itself) is what Dzogchenpas refer to as rigpa. One knows that there is a primordial freedom from grasping his or her mind (sems).

There is a fairly wide consensus among lamas of both the Nyingma and Sarma schools that the end state of dzogchen and mahamudra are the same.] The Madhyamaka teachings on emptiness are fundamental to and thoroughly compatible with Dzogchen practices. Essence Mahamudra is viewed as being the same as Dzogchen, except the former doesn't include thödgal....

The ultimate fruition of the thodgal practices is a body of pure light, called a rainbow body (Wylie 'ja' lus, pronounced Jalü.) If the four visions of thogal are not completed before death, then at death, from the point of view of an external observer, the following happens: the corpse does not start to decompose, but starts to shrink until it disappears. Usually fingernails, toenails and hair are left behind (see e.g. Togden Urgyen Tendzin, Ayu Khandro, Changchub Dorje.) The attainment of the rainbow body is typically accompanied by the appearance of lights and rainbows.

Some exceptional practitioners such as Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are held to have realized a higher type of rainbow body without dying. Having completed the four visions before death, the individual focuses on the lights that surround the fingers. His or her physical body self-liberates into a nonmaterial body of light (a Sambhogakāya) with the ability to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion.

It is not a practice without opposition in Tibetan circles. My intention has been to show a western alternative. Primordial represents out of time, rather than before time. We can certainly achieve that if we are truthful and not judgemental, but it is difficult.

Sogyal and Kundun know that the Dharma has moved west. In fact the Maitreya is known to be a white man. It is not a racial thing. Masters have ridden various horses, red, black, yellow and white. But it is the time for the white one. The problem is that the white civilzation is so far away from what is required to be allowed access to what I call the night school. But the seeds are there, have been for a while and are beginning to sprout.

Sogyal is a very advanced soul who is a major factor in moving west, as has been Kundun himself. It has been arduous for both of them. You can picture the average western students and how the Tibetans must feel about them.

The Emin started us on the way too. You have to overcome certain things to achieve rigpa as they call it. One is sorting out what is true from what is taught. I dreamed two nights ago of being in an 'Emin' house and went to the bathroom. It was stained with sick going back ages, there was old food lying next to this and the basins were also full of unwashed crockery etc. but in the corner was a nice hot clean corner type bath. I was tempted to throw everything in there. I looked for something to clean with and saw a load of unused items including Ajax and Vim dating back years and something more modern with a broken dispenser. I was actually embarrassed that anyone might think I had caused this mess and cleaned it up. It took ages and was an arduous dream, the crockery grew and grew. This is why I am untouchable. People stopped inviting me to parties because I washed up the glasses. That is only my way. It is simple but hard. I had to remove debris from the blocked sink with my hands. My way is by dreaming. I often wake exhausted and work hard at night. Others prefer to be more 'conscious' and meditate. But it is hard too.

more from that site:

Reality vs dreams See also: Lucid dreaming
Mipham Rinpoche has said:

The real sky is (knowing) that samsara and nirvana are merely an illusory display.

According to contemporary teacher Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, in Dzogchen the perceived reality is considered to be unreal. All appearances perceived during the whole life of an individual through all senses, including sounds, smells, tastes and tactile sensations in their totality are like a big dream. It is claimed that on careful examination the dream of life and regular nightly dreams are not very different, and that in their essential nature there is no difference between them.

The non-essential difference between our dreaming state and our ordinary waking experience is that the latter is more concrete and linked with our attachment; the dreaming is slightly detached.

Also according to this teaching, there is a correspondence between the states of sleep and dream and our experiences when we die. After experiences in an intermediate state (bardo) an individual comes out of it, a new karmic illusion is created and another existence begins. This is how transmigration happens.

One aim of dream practice is to realize during a dream that one is dreaming. One can then dream with lucidity and do all sorts of things, such as go to different places, talk to people, fly and so forth. It is also possible to do different yogic practices while dreaming (usually such yogic practices one does in waking state). In this way the yogi can have a very strong experience and with this comes understanding of the dream-like nature of daily life. This is very relevant to diminishing attachments, because they are based on strong beliefs that life's perceptions and objects are real and, as a consequence, important. If one really understands what Buddha Shakyamuni meant when he said that everything is unreal or of the nature of shunyata, then one can diminish attachments and tensions.

The teacher gives advice, that the realization that the life is only a big dream can help us finally liberate ourselves from the chains of emotions, attachments, and ego and then we have the possibility of ultimately becoming enlightened.

Sogyal is surrounded by Emin type minions. For the last four years I have asked for a short audience with him in London. Each time I am put off by his minders and expected to buy the retreat ticket. But we meet often at night and are 'brothers'. It does not matter any more than Ethra not answering me. When they wake up they will, but perhaps they are still resentful that an untouchable cleaner should dare to enter their exclusive world.

There are enlightened ones from the Emin days and others who read here and i meet them too. I know I have been hard on Maque, JennM and Dreadwear just as Leo was hard on me but it is a great honour in reality to be the lesson or the scapegoat for the others. Orman was in that dream of the Emin house by the way. He was able to clean electrically a space to work and knew the importance of this, but i fear it is being lost.

Why do they not ring bells during wartime. Does Horus not like them? Why does Janus only have his temple open at such times? It is Chinese New Year

The Chinese Year of the Dragon is in 2012. Astrology is part of Chinese life. In Chinese astrology dragon people excel. The dragon Chinese zodiac year is special.

Many people are looking forward to the Chinese zodiac year of 2012. Astrology is so important to the Chinese and the Chinese year of the dragon is so special.

Think about the dragon!

In Chinese astrology the dragon is the only animal of the Chinese zodiac year that is not real.

Mmmmm (I wish I could edit my earlier posts but am not able to - sorry they will only let me edit the latest ones)

reve x