View Full Version : socialists are not anarchists
cataleptik
12-01-2008, 06:16 AM
they just arent
cataleptik
12-01-2008, 07:01 AM
agree/disagree?
zarah
12-01-2008, 10:02 AM
Umm agree, they're two entirely different entities...you can be a socialist and anarchic though, if you wanted to be :D
i don't know what sort of discussion you're trying to facilitate? There are obvious differences. I don't want to get too much into politics on this board, but heres a nice quote for you :)
"The consistant Anarchist, then should be a socialist, but a socialist of a particular sort. He will not only oppose alienated and specialized labor and look forward to the appropriation of capital by the whole body of workers, but he will also insist that this appropriation be direct, not exercised by some elite force acting in the name of the proletariat"
cataleptik
07-02-2008, 06:34 PM
i don't know what sort of discussion you're trying to facilitate? There are obvious differences. I don't want to get too much into politics on this board, but heres a nice quote for you :)
"The consistant Anarchist, then should be a socialist, but a socialist of a particular sort. He will not only oppose alienated and specialized labor and look forward to the appropriation of capital by the whole body of workers, but he will also insist that this appropriation be direct, not exercised by some elite force acting in the name of the proletariat"
a)
how do you intend to avoid getting into politics on a David Icke board.
b)
is this still an official David Icke board?
c)
were Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin anarchists?
d) is tearing down a government and installing a NEW government considered anarchism?
e)
what is doublethink?
i think the statement you place above is objective doublethink of the sort used to decieve the kids in the countercultural late sixties. as in: property that is taken and appropriated by the workers -- that's not anarchism.
i can see why you don't want the conversation to get political. it could get embarassing, like getting caught in the voting booth with plato's hand in your pants.
marc_o
07-02-2008, 10:00 PM
Eh? Whats your beef?
I agree, Socialists are not Anarchists.
Anarchism is anarchism, Socialism is socialism. Look them both up. Yes the two ideas share similarities, and yes, they share differences.
You might be interested in looking up Libertarian Socialism, or Anarchistic Socialism. These ideas bridge the differences between the two, and if anything highlight the similarities.
One Libertarian Socialist phrase is, 'Socialism without liberty is slavery.' I happen to agree with that one.
c)
were Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin anarchists?
Eer, clearly not. They were statists to the highest degree.
d) is tearing down a government and installing a NEW government considered anarchism?
No, anarchism is a philosophy that opposes any form of government; if after tearing down the government it was replaced with nothing, then perhaps it could be called anarchism.
e)
what is doublethink?
You could just look it up, but if you insist on being so lazy:
The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them . . . . To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
i think the statement you place above is objective doublethink of the sort used to decieve the kids in the countercultural late sixties. as in: property that is taken and appropriated by the workers -- that's not anarchism.
You are not very clear about what you mean here. He said nothing that could be construed as doublethink. Anyway, I thought you were asking what doublethink was.
My questions are:
a) What do you mean by 'objective doublethink'?
b) What do you mean by, 'property that is taken and appropriated by the workers -- thats not anarchism.'
Do you understand that anarchists take many shapes and forms, and that anarchist have different solutions to the economic and legal structure of society. Some can believe in property being appropriated by workers.
i can see why you don't want the conversation to get political. it could get embarassing, like getting caught in the voting booth with plato's hand in your pants.
Eh? He was basically saying he didnt want to get heavily involved in this thread topic, probably because you could find answers to these questions yourself. You're being a smart-arse. Its ironic given the lack of knowledge you show in this thread.
adimon
08-02-2008, 12:08 AM
they just arent
agree/disagree?
Agreed.
a)
how do you intend to avoid getting into politics on a David Icke board.
I try to stimulate much political discussion here, but often the responses you will get are from people that believe that the real world is an illusion. It's pretty hard to talk 'normal' politics with those people.
c)
were Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin anarchists?
No, they were totalitarians. Anarchy = no state (impossible). Totalitarianism (state totality)
d) is tearing down a government and installing a NEW government considered anarchism?
Anarchy is no hierarchical power system. Hence NO government.
e)
what is doublethink?
An Orwellian concept from 1984.
The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
COW
ANARCHISM: You have two cows. The cows decide you have no right to do anything with their milk and leave to form their own society.
BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.
COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government takes both of them and gives you part of the milk.
DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes both cows and drafts you.
NAZISM: You have two cows. The government takes both and then shoots you.
FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.
SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes one of them and gives it to your neighbor.
SURREALISM: You have two aardvarks. The government paints one green and requires you to take harmonica lessons.
CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell both and buy a bull.
cataleptik
08-02-2008, 06:53 AM
you're directly lying if you say that socialism and anarchism are anything alike.
and it's the sort of lie that's been told for decades, and the ONLY REASON EVER has been to decieve people and to make regencies, empires, military fiefdoms and secret Malthusian conspiracies that much stronger.
i like that i got to bait someone into showing real hostility to independent thought...
socialism is a state building philosophy. doublethink? oh, i'm lazy minded. yeah, socialists are great for enslaving everyone they could, putting everyone to work they can.
the percepts of anarchism always include free will.
there's no free will in socialism. everyone is put to the task of fulfilling the communist manifesto. you go to CUBA and tell him you're an anarchist and will do what you want. (bye.)
people have to go to great lengths to - by denying and dissembling, make the New World Order stronger. socialism and in particular the convoluted and absurd idea that anarchism is a form of government - or that there could be a marriage of anarchism and socialism --
naturally those lies have been told with spikes in the 1930s and late 1960s to sabotage and "own" countercultural thought -- and to make governments and the secret societies that rule them stronger. now - i don't expect you or anyone else friendly to fascist totalitarianism to respond intelligently.
instead, i inspect that you will stupidly try to assert that there is ANY way of separating socialism and totalitarianism, fascism, Nazi-ism (there is not, but fiercely antiintellectual Socialists have glibly LIED to as many people as they could. tomorrow the world, right?"
Thank you for talking to me.
cataleptik
08-02-2008, 06:54 AM
Agreed.
COW
ANARCHISM: You have two cows. The cows decide you have no right to do anything with their milk and leave to form their own society.
guess the cows didn't like vampires.
adimon
08-02-2008, 12:11 PM
Hey Cataleptik
I'm not sure if your reply below is aimed at me, but I think it might be, so I'm gonna reply, and if it isn't then let me know, and I can see about editing mine ok?
you're directly lying if you say that socialism and anarchism are anything alike.
I'm not saying they are at all.
i like that i got to bait someone into showing real hostility to independent thought...
How so?
the percepts of anarchism always include free will.
It's true that the precepts do, but don't you think that in reality, leaders will always emerge to organise things? Isn't this just the human way?
people have to go to great lengths to - by denying and dissembling, make the New World Order stronger. socialism and in particular the convoluted and absurd idea that anarchism is a form of government - or that there could be a marriage of anarchism and socialism --
I agree that the only conceivable mix that COULD exist is anarcho-capitalism, but even then I think it would be short-lived and another government would form from the ashes of the previous.
now - i don't expect you or anyone else friendly to fascist totalitarianism to respond intelligently.
instead, i inspect that you will stupidly try to assert that there is ANY way of separating socialism and totalitarianism, fascism, Nazi-ism (there is not, but fiercely antiintellectual Socialists have glibly LIED to as many people as they could. tomorrow the world, right?"
Thank you for talking to me.
I am not friendly to totalitarianism. I am its enemy. Are you suggesting that we live in totalitarianism now? Doesn't the fact that you are legally allowed to post these thoughts on THIS particular forum contradict that view?
My view on the above is that socialism is impossible, fascism undesirable and Nazism largely extinct thankfully.
Totalitarianism sadly still exists across the globe, and it should be eradicated.
These are my views. Hey, you may not even have been talking to me. :)
marc_o
08-02-2008, 06:10 PM
I dont even know what you are banging on about. I consider myself Libertarian/Anarchist, yet you seem to be having a go.
Libertarian Socialism, although it sounds like something mutually incompatible, such a philosophy exists, I didnt endorse it, just mentioned it to you. I think Noam Chomski is one.
You were obviously baiting for a response so you could pounce, dunno what you're on tho.
Your English is too poor for me to understand, and I cant bothered figuring out what you said. So lets leave it.
In conclusion. Socialism is not Anarchism. Its a given.
cataleptik i think you completely misunderstood what i was trying to say. how was that quote doublethink? that quote (chomsky) clearly explains that Libertarian communists (a strand of Anarchism) oppose socialism through the absence of a party in that the people are to rise up, rather than an elite group representing the people. I think if we had a proper chat we'd find a lot to relate to instead of you just going off straight away. Anyway it's good to see other Anarchists on the board. Sorry if the quote offended you, but i thought it was some good input into a stupid thread.
Cheers
magna_carta
03-03-2008, 05:54 AM
My opinion on socialism, is that they are more racist than some of the far-right. Except they cunningly disguise their racism as political correctness and call it positive. This has an obvious effect. Segregation which destroys unity which creates an apartied and totally weakens the country.
Socialism and Anarchy are not the same thing. Stalin was a fascist who used the socialist ideology. Anarchy COULD be seen as the opposite of fascism.
You must know some strange socialists!
magna_carta
04-03-2008, 04:38 PM
You must know some strange socialists!
Socialist 'Red Ken' Livingstone was part of a socialist organisation that supported Saddam Hussains regime and also spied upon Iraqi's over here who was trying to bring democracy to Iraq.
Socialist George Galloway also supported Saddam Hussain.
Socialist Tony Benn had cups of Tea with Saddam Hussain.
Yet they are all part of this Socialist political party (New Labour) that lied to the nation and dragged us into a war that most do not understand (inc me) in Iraq where Saddam was hanged.
I think socialism is something for 'young adults'. These old farts are just loons.
I say we should go back up the tree's and groom each other after the corporations are defeated and planet Earth is free.
EDIT: Correction, Galloway is ex-Labour and now part of the Labour corporation under codename 'Respect'
cataleptik
07-03-2008, 04:55 AM
bump.
lizzy
07-03-2008, 07:52 AM
I am looking into Anarchism.......I think I have finally have my answer.
Thankyou cat and kuro:)
dave1973
24-03-2008, 03:30 PM
Socialism died a long time ago in my opinion. It's funny though to see these idiots with their Che T shirts trying to recreate a crapy ideology! They go to university, have the audacity to lecture the Working Class. They write books about working class struggles, but the working class cant understand these books! Then they take part in campaigns such as, Save Our Trees, Save The Wales, Free Palestine bla bla bla. They will exploit any cause to get members, most of these sign up on impulse or spur of the moment. Ive heard them described as the great unwashed, I say their the great unwanted.
CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell both and buy a bull.
i've heard this cow thing before, but if its capitalism shouldn't you sell one cow for a bull and then breed more cows to sell rather than sell both cows and be stuck with a lonesome horny bull?