Political Saviours? It ain't gonna happen!

[fremmenwarrior]

(Decided to start a new thread from the Ron Paul topic).

Many people are sick to the back teeth of this corrupt, wicked system of manipulation and control. However, many of those who constantly moan and groan about the system and society in general today, just go on blindly voting in these 'elite-rigged' political elections, putting their hopes in the next 'bright-star' politician who promises the nation "great and radical changes" - but nothing ever changes for the better; indeed things just go on getting steadily worse; and yet still they go on, election after election, voting for these corrupt political parties? It absolutely beggars belief!

How long is it going to be before so-called 'awakened people' finally realise (and admit to themselves), that attempting to use the POLITICAL ROUTE to effect the desired changes we all want to see, is a FUTILE exercise. The political route is completely CLOSED OFF to us! Therefore, I firmly believe that those desired changes WILL NOT EVER be achieved by awakened people hoping to sway the sleepers opinion and get their support, by attempting to go down the political route.

It simply will not work!

because the controlling elite already has the political route all nicely stitched up and sealed tight against any opponents of their wicked agenda.

The past has proven that any potential new anti-government, anti-establishment political party, group, or movement (whose political manifesto / policies would directly oppose or conflict with the corrupt and twisted 'norms' set by the controlling elite), is immediately 'outed', discredited and then completely crushed (by the elite-controlled media). The party/group/movement makes headline news in the tabloids and is labelled as being terrorist, racist, religionist, communist, etc. and the sheeple believe all this shit.

So, it makes no difference which US President, which UK Prime Minister, or which political party one votes for; because these programmed robots are SELECTED by the Illuminati, FOR the Illuminati; working AGAINST the people. Politicians are NOT, and NEVER WERE, elected 'by the people', 'for the people'. It's all lies.

This is why it annoys me so much when you hear sanctimonious people proudly say, "Oh, yes, I've voted for [whichever party] for over 30 years now..." and then in the next breath you hear them moaning about street crime, house prices, the health service, and income taxes. Grr!! Mindless, brain-washed, whimpering sheep! Baa... Baa... all form an orderly line to be slaughtered in the Illuminati abatoir... next...

Democrat, Republican, Left, Right, Conservative, New Labour, Liberals etc., they are ALL the same. It's all just a con trick to make people think that they have a choice - yes, different faces, different coloured ties; but 'the agenda' is exactly the same, just differently packaged so as to 'dupe the sleepers' into thinking they have a voice, a choice, and some sort of power or control over their own destiny simply because they have voted for a particular politician.

It's complete LIES and BULLSHIT and NOTHING will ever change in this world until the sheeple fully realise this and are made aware of this fact.

So, what makes anyone here believe that Mr. Ron Paul, or indeed any other fracking politician, will somehow be 'different' or make positive changes for the good of the people, when one considers the sub-human gaggle of corrupt, lying, 'Illuminati agenda-pushing' puppet politicians that we've seen SELECTED and carefully PLACED into power by the controlling elite, in the USA, here in the UK, and in many other Countries, since the end of WW2?

No, Ron Paul will not be any different to the rest of those despotic devils in suits!! ALL politicians are completely rotten to the core - why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE! It goes with the territory and there are NO exceptions to this rule in 'their' political world - there can't be!

Again, history shows us that the controlling elite will not tolerate anyone who 'goes against the grain', or who makes a (political) stand for truth and justice, or who questions 'their' evil agenda. For those few potential leaders who showed any ounce of morality, decency, honesty and integrity, who would govern with the best interests of country and people at heart, who dared to go against the Illuminati agenda, then the elite either tried to buy them off first - then, if they still refused to be bought into line, the elite SILENCED and ERASED their asses!

Welcome to the wonderful world of elite-controlled world politics!
That IS world politics in a nutshell!

So, better to place 'their' own people in as Presidents and Prime Ministers etc., and save 'them' the trouble of all this hassle and having to risk another JFK-like scenario...

Here in the UK, over the years, we have seen many of these self-confessed 'Political Saviours' come and go... all promising to do their very best for the nation in regards to national security, wealth, taxes, employment, health, education, tackling crime, etc etc; and ALL have left behind them a dark wake of suffering, despair, and chaos - a terrible legacy of lies, corruption, embezzlement, drug and sex scandals, fraud, bloodshed and yes, even mass murder, all as a direct result of THEIR reckless and corrupt political policies, both at home and abroad.

When people finally realise (and admit to themselves), that the political route is now completely closed off, and that public protest by waving a few anti-government banners, giving out leaflets and protesting in the street, is a pointless exercise too... only then will they take the final option being left open to people who point blank refuse to accept this system - and that of course, is to go underground and form covert cells of armed resistance / paramilitary groups.

What????? People may gasp, but is there any other choice or way that we can beat this thing? People will not, and do not, like talking in this way - but the bottom line is that is exactly what it is going to take! This is the growing reality of the whole situation - the elite is forcing the hand of all those of us who reject their wicked system of control and rule.

Perhaps, towards the end, things will get so bad that they will reason: 'Well, if the elite are intent on destroying me and my family, and enslaving my kids, then why not go out fighting for freedom, standing proudly on ones feet, rather than grovelling on one's knees waiting for an Illuminati financed execution bullet to hit? Some will strongly disagree here no doubt, but this isn't me war-mongering, I'm just being truthful, because it is the elite that is forcing our hand and pushing awakened people into that extreme situation. It will take extreme measures to achieve extreme results and I think this will happen eventually in the not so distant future.

There is no other option left open to awakened people,

or is there?

[cruise4]

Ron Paul certainly can make a difference if only to buy us more time. And I think he can do more than that, a lot more. He is an opportunity.

A Political Party adopting Truth Campaign policies is a sure fire winner. The only problem is the same as it is now... getting the message out to enough people, because they ain't going to discredit this particular message. Even trying will be tricky for them.

You are right concerning 'Old politics'.... but we know that. A New Politics is needed. I don't see anyone calling for maintaining the status quo.

Are you saying you think we should go at them militarily... now? You would do their work for them.

When enough people know about this they will be finished. Then we will be needed to ensure the system is replaced completely. We must not allow establishment back in.

And there's plenty on the cards to help, like financial collapse, pandemics, immigration etc. Some of the things these elite are doing are going to prove not in their best interests.

And if something spiritual happens then it won't matter will it.

[cruise4]

Gave me a new idea all that...

We do want a One World Representation,
but Ours, not theirs,

which made me think of the Anti-Christ angle.

Although this idea had crossed my made it hadn't penetrated as something possibly concrete, or maybe even the way forward. And perhaps it isn't, but just wondered what anyone else thinks?

[mightiswrong]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[fremmenwarrior]

Hi cruise4,

I agree with you that a political party adopting Truth Campaign policies is exactly what is needed, but I cannot see that ever coming to fruition, well, not in the near future anyway. Simply because the elite seems to have all angles covered - they would have in the system they have created.

However, as you say, all may not be lost, as cracks and flaws are forming and I believe that 'they' underestimate peoples strength, will and grit determination - and more especially those of us who refuse to go quietly and roll over and play dead for them!

Any attempt to form this new party, and I think the elite would use the controlled media and their agents / infiltrators / spies to quite literally tear it apart from within.

Many would also say that a new truth campaign political party running the country in the same fashion as 'old politics' parties do today, (just with new / different policies), is rather like putting an clapped out old engine into a brand new car and expecting it to run smoothly and effieciently. This system is corrupt, so why try to flog a dead horse? So I agree, that it's best to completely wipe the slate clean, as it where; and start afresh with the "New Politics" as you put it.

Sadly, in 'their' stinking rotten system, money is power, and today, everyone 'has a price'... and people will crack easily if the elite wave enough bills in their faces. Greed, corruption, despotism, lust for wealth and power etc., are a major stumbling block to making any progress in a 'new' direction towards forming a completely new 'truth campaign' political party. How can greed and corruption in the political arena be stopped?

You said that people like Ron Paul are an opportunity and would "buy us more time." Please could you explain that in more detail - more time for what exactly? Thanks.

On the point about, "are you saying you think we should go at them militarily... now?"

No, not at this time, but going underground and forming a resistance / paramilitary organisation / international? network may be the only option left for those of us who refuse to surrender to the elite, if 'they' continue to erode basic freedoms and are closing everything down, step by step, and tightening their grip on people.

I like your last sentence: "And if something spiritual happens then it won't matter will it."

I haven't a clue what type of 'spiritual intervention' this would be? Are you talking about God? the Creator? some higher power?? stepping in and putting a stop to this wickedness?

Well, yes, if that is what is required to bring about change, then let's hope that 'spiritual intervention' takes place long before the day we are forced to go underground and take up arms against the enemy, because that day will be very ugly and bloody indeed!

[danucrom]

Are you saying you think we should go at them militarily... now? You would do their work for them.

Thats the excuse they want to come down hard.. The only way to bring down this system is to ignore it and stop playing their game.

[lizzy]

Thats the excuse they want to come down hard.. The only way to bring down this system is to ignore it and stop playing their game.

In my book..ALL EXITS ARE CLOSED.
Freemmen put it succintly enough.
my best guess is a depression and a pandemic to wake up the masses but then it is too late. The UN troops will be in your street and only if the military revolts can we turn the tables but on such a large scale I doubt see that.
No party is honourable, all activism is taken out, ( animal rights, greenpeace, amenesty intl.) side lined some how.

I don't want to put my faith into my own acsencion or that of a saviour.

How do we NOT play? If leadership is by example (and the corrupt evil of ours in evident everywhere) How do we lead / feed oursleves?


I am going to start an ideas thread.

"Fight Back,...no contribution too small."

lizzy.

[danucrom]

In my book..ALL EXITS ARE CLOSED.
Freemmen put it succintly enough.
my best guess is a depression and a pandemic to wake up the masses but then it is too late. The UN troops will be in your street and only if the military revolts can we turn the tables but on such a large scale I doubt see that.
No party is honourable, all activism is taken out, ( animal rights, greenpeace, amenesty intl.) side lined some how.

I don't want to put my faith into my own acsencion or that of a saviour.

How do we NOT play? If leadership is by example (and the corrupt evil of ours in evident everywhere) How do we lead / feed oursleves?


I am going to start an ideas thread.

"Fight Back,...no contribution too small."

lizzy.

The PTB are ritually legalistic. They need public consent to push their agenda through, they get this by manipulating the public to the point where they demand their own enslavement. You see, I think people like you and me have two major enemies in this world 1, the PTB and 2, the vast majority who give the PTB their power by playing their contrived game.. Therefore the conclusion I came to was, to beat the system we should drop out of the system and refuse to play in the game any longer, If enough people dropped out of their control grid, stopped useing their fake money and started to govern themselves then the system will start to crumble. This is probably wishful thinking as I know most people will go along with the bastards and play their game right up until the very end.

[cruise4]

Once we get into power (:D) then we could bring about blanket reform. On day one, plenty of people would get a massive shock. The point being at this time we are forced to work within the political system. Its there. No good pretending it isn't. Once in we would radically change it and diminish its role.

"Any attempt to form this new party, and I think the elite would use the controlled media and their agents / infiltrators / spies to quite literally tear it apart from within."

Well they are trying that now with the Truth Movement etc. The result is we are growing stronger than ever. NOW we do have a way to see past their manipulations. And how about a World Political Party?

And the Ron Paul thing has got loads of people onboard. This will only accelerate (I hope) as he does better than expected. And put things like the Fed Reserve and Income Tax firmly in the shop window. As Chris says... this Ron Paul issue has exposed the mainstrem media for what it is to many. Alternative media is springing up everywhere. And this could last until next November.

I already feel I'm in the resistence. Its just not time to get down the foxhole yet.

There are also signs, I think, that the NWO are falling apart which may prove problematic because who/what will replace it? I would guess more of the same even if initially it looks good.

I also wonder about whether anything will materialise on the political front, but I do know people working on this within our movement, but an initial cadre needs to come together and precious few are volunteering to get involved. It wouldn't take many to snowball this but until a serious looking effort transpires...

And think how many votes actually get people elected these days. Not that many. Our supporters are motivated. Their's aren't. In fact many of their voters would switch in an instant if there was a viable alternative, Especially as events unfold in the near future. I'd prefer we were politically ready to take advantage.

[bicycle]

the only person who can 'save' you is you

[mightiswrong]

to beat the system we should drop out of the system and refuse to play in the game any longer, If enough people dropped out of their control grid, stopped useing their fake money and started to govern themselves then the system will start to crumble.

Yup.

The point being at this time we are forced to work within the political system.

You what?

And how about a World Political Party?

What to force the whole world to do what "we" want?

[cruise4]

"What to force the whole world to do what "we" want?"
Who wants to force anything? Are you suggesting that no organised leadership anywhere in the world is how we expect things to be run in the future?

"The point being at this time we are forced to work within the political system."
"You What?"

Your alternative being?

"the only person who can 'save' you is you"
Means what exactly?

[mightiswrong]

Who wants to force any thing? Are you suggesting that no organised leadership anywhere in the world is how we expect things to be run in the future?


You suggested a "world political party". Political parties if elected/ selected require an army or police force and legal system to force their will on people. If it is a world political organisation then that force is exerted across the world.

Leading is not a word that can be substituted for the word ruling. They mean different things. What do you mean by "how we expect things to be run"? What exactly needs to be "run" and who is "we"?

[revolutionary_jam]

look one way or another politicians get voted into power, if we can get a few that are slightly less bad or at least somewhat oppose the current policies it's a step in the right direction,

a lot of the time it is justified not voting (ie. when you're choosing between a douche bag and a turd sandwich) but if there's a decent candidate and you don't vote - the elite love it because it means they don't even HAVE to rig the election

[mightiswrong]

Voting will not solve anything. It will only endorse and give the political system power. Do it if you truelly believe that it will help but the point is that the political system is designed to disempower you. The whole idea is that you are powerless apart from your vote which is simply not true. That is the reason I take issue with the promotion of voting. Power does not rest in political organisations. They are designed to take power away from those that have power.

Let us assume that there is somebody who appears to be good. How does one know that they have not been preparing for this stage to look good? We know that politicians lie to get elected and that when they get into power they do not follow thru. It is the oldest trick in the book. The result of this is a lot of lost power. People who could have been using their power to make real change in their communities have invested their energy in giving power up to a monopoly that has no legitimate right to rule. Now the monopoly looks even more respectable because all these people have been encouraging their friends and family to participate when the fact remains that the monopoly has no right to rule. All of these people are also now on the electoral register meaning they are easy targets for the monopoly to tax and more over if the worst came to the worst they would know who the political dissidents were.

You should never underestimate how sly these people are. It is pure evil.

Why I Would Not Vote Against Hitler (http://www.voluntaryist.com/articles/085b.php)

[danucrom]

Voting will not solve anything. It will only endorse and give the political system power. Do it if you truelly believe that it will help but the point is that the political system is designed to disempower you. The whole idea is that you are powerless apart from your vote which is simply not true. That is the reason I take issue with the promotion of voting. Power does not rest in political organisations. They are designed to take power away from those that have power.

Let us assume that there is somebody who appears to be good. How does one know that they have not been preparing for this stage to look good? We know that politicians lie to get elected and that when they get into power they do not follow thru. It is the oldest trick in the book. The result of this is a lot of lost power. People who could have been using their power to make real change in their communities have invested their energy in giving power up to a monopoly that has no legitimate right to rule. Now the monopoly looks even more respectable because all these people have been encouraging their friends and family to participate when the fact remains that the monopoly has no right to rule. All of these people are also now on the electoral register meaning they are easy targets for the monopoly to tax and more over if the worst came to the worst they would know who the political dissidents were.

Well put.

[cruise4]

"but the point is that the political system is designed to disempower you"

Well this one is. Thats why we want a different one. All your points relate to the current and historical situation. So irrelevant to the points I raised. We all know the current system is a fiasco.

"Political parties if elected/ selected require an army or police force and legal system to force their will on people"

You are saying that. I am saying the will of the people should form an acceptable leadership that can promote collective interests. I submit there will always be collective interests in the forseeable future although individual Sovereignty should reign supreme and be the basis of, and above, any collectivism.

Again... what is your alternative? Barring some sort of evolution, if you think everyone is going to happily live side by side you are very mistaken. Armed mobs form at the drop of a hat, in a power vacuum. I don't necessarily go along with laws but nevertheless a murderer should usually be brought to justice, a serial killer should be stopped etc.

Not voting is something I practise. But not out of some personal philosophy... its because they are all unrepresentative and mostly corrupt. For example if DI stood for election as an independant in my area I would vote.

Regarding 'run what'.... how about free energy machine production and distribution, food distribution... I mean come on. The slightest thought and all sorts of things pop into mind.

And who's 'we'? Well its originally meant as a term to just talk about something but if you want an idea lets say us truthseekers as there's no other group I'd particularly trust just now.

But the idea isn't to form a party, fixate ideals and then force it on anyone. Its for people to come together and decide amongst them selves what they want.

Now lets hear from you naysayers what you want/expect the future to bring 'after' the NWO are gone and how things should operate because we can all criticise anything for the sake of it. That part's easy.

[mightiswrong]

"Many states, in an effort to shut out Ron Paul are now closing their primaries. That means that only Republicans can vote in the Presidential primaries for a Republican candidate. Many states are doing this quickly and quietly and giving people very little time to learn about the new rules. For example, New Hampshire decided only a week ago that you will now have to change your party affiliation by October 12, 2007 or it will be too late to do so. New Hampshire also has a closed primary and only Republicans and possibly Independents will be allowed to vote for Ron Paul. "

http://www.gambling911.com/Ron-Paul-New-Voting-Rules-100307.html

[fremmenwarrior]

"Not voting is something I practise. But not out of some personal philosophy... its because they are all unrepresentative and mostly corrupt."

Well said cruise4.

And that is exactly why I also choose not to vote in 'their' rigged elections. Talking specifically about the UK, so many people here have given up listening to politicians altogether and they do not bother to vote in General and local elections either, simply because its clear that ALL of them are full of shit and are self-serving minions of the elite - no matter what political party they are in, ALL of them are playing the same dirty game FOR the elite, AGAINST the people, in exchange for their 30 pieces of silver...

Year after year Tony Blair and his cronies said that they would do 'this and that' for the people and for the nation, but always they did the exact opposite; and people are getting so sick of their lies, the corruption, the sleaze and their sanctimonious bullshit.

Scandal after scandal followed - politicians fiddling HUGE amounts of money on their expense accounts - one New Labour politician (Ruth Kelly MP) was under Police scrutiny for somehow buying a new, very expensive second house, funded by her fiddling expenses!! But nothing was ever done about it in the end, it was glossed over and never spoken of again in the press.

I'm not sure about things in the USA, but here in the UK, I honestly think that the political route is closed and sealed tight by the elite; and as I said, although people don't like talking in these terms, it WILL take a more aggressive, direct, 'hands on' approach to bring the elite and their wicked system down.

[revolutionary_jam]

look, i'm not saying they should vote in the general elections, but Americans HAVE to vote in the primaries, because thats where the power to choose the candidates is
the media in the US deliberately does not publicise that you have to register for the primaries well in advance, the establishment loves low voter turn out in the primaries coz it means they get to put bushes and clintons in power

[adimon]

those who constantly moan and groan about the system and society in general today, just go on blindly voting in these 'elite-rigged' political elections

Can you please provide some evidence for these rigged elections you speak of? Thanks. :)

The past has proven that any potential new anti-government, anti-establishment political party, group, or movement (whose political manifesto / policies would directly oppose or conflict with the corrupt and twisted 'norms' set by the controlling elite), is immediately 'outed', discredited and then completely crushed (by the elite-controlled media). The party/group/movement makes headline news in the tabloids and is labelled as being terrorist, racist, religionist, communist, etc. and the sheeple believe all this shit.

Are any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past WORTH joining or supporting though?

So, it makes no difference which US President, which UK Prime Minister, or which political party one votes for; because these programmed robots are SELECTED by the Illuminati, FOR the Illuminati; working AGAINST the people. Politicians are NOT, and NEVER WERE, elected 'by the people', 'for the people'. It's all lies.

Could you please provide evidence to support this claim please?

It's complete LIES and BULLSHIT and NOTHING will ever change in this world until the sheeple fully realise this and are made aware of this fact.

When did you first start using the term 'sheeple' ? Is this not a negative term to apply to fellow humans?

So, what makes anyone here believe that Mr. Ron Paul, or indeed any other fracking politician, will somehow be 'different' or make positive changes for the good of the people, when one considers the sub-human gaggle of corrupt, lying, 'Illuminati agenda-pushing' puppet politicians that we've seen SELECTED and carefully PLACED into power by the controlling elite, in the USA, here in the UK, and in many other Countries, since the end of WW2?

What makes me think it? Good question.

1. Intimate knowledge and experience of the UK Political system
2. Sound knowledge of the US Political system
3. Sound knowledge and experience of the European Union
4. Extensive contacts in UK and European Politics
5. A difference of opinion as to the structure, nature and methods of the elite.

No, Ron Paul will not be any different to the rest of those despotic devils in suits!! ALL politicians are completely rotten to the core - why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE! It goes with the territory and there are NO exceptions to this rule in 'their' political world - there can't be!

It's generalisations like this which are literally killing you.

Again, history shows us that the controlling elite will not tolerate anyone who 'goes against the grain', or who makes a (political) stand for truth and justice, or who questions 'their' evil agenda. For those few potential leaders who showed any ounce of morality, decency, honesty and integrity, who would govern with the best interests of country and people at heart, who dared to go against the Illuminati agenda, then the elite either tried to buy them off first - then, if they still refused to be bought into line, the elite SILENCED and ERASED their asses!

Where did you learn this history you speak of? :confused:

Here in the UK, over the years, we have seen many of these self-confessed 'Political Saviours' come and go...

To whom do you refer?

all promising to do their very best for the nation in regards to national security, wealth, taxes, employment, health, education, tackling crime, etc etc; and ALL have left behind them a dark wake of suffering, despair, and chaos - a terrible legacy of lies, corruption, embezzlement, drug and sex scandals, fraud, bloodshed and yes, even mass murder, all as a direct result of THEIR reckless and corrupt political policies, both at home and abroad.

Details or examples please?

When people finally realise (and admit to themselves), that the political route is now completely closed off

Never. Party politics may not be the most effective instrument of change, but there is more to politics than political parties. You should know that.

public protest by waving a few anti-government banners, giving out leaflets and protesting in the street, is a pointless exercise

No disagreement there.

only then will they take the final option being left open to people who point blank refuse to accept this system - and that of course, is to go underground and form covert cells of armed resistance / paramilitary groups.

How many people do you think you'd need to take on NATO?

There is no other option left open to awakened people, or is there?

Yes there is. Stop banging your head against a brick wall and climb the wall instead.

And if something spiritual happens then it won't matter will it.

What might that be cruise4?

made me think of the Anti-Christ angle.

Although this idea had crossed my made it hadn't penetrated as something possibly concrete, or maybe even the way forward. And perhaps it isn't, but just wondered what anyone else thinks?

Could you expand on this please cruise4?

Hi cruise4,

I agree with you that a political party adopting Truth Campaign policies is exactly what is needed, but I cannot see that ever coming to fruition, well, not in the near future anyway.

I see two major challenges for such a plan. First you would have to get a sufficient number of people to agree on the Truth, and then secondly raising public support. It would be no different to any political party though, in essence.

the elite seems to have all angles covered - they would have in the system they have created.

Don't be so defeatist. In a constantly-changing world there will always be angles to make changes.

Many would also say that a new truth campaign political party running the country in the same fashion as 'old politics' parties do today, (just with new / different policies), is rather like putting an clapped out old engine into a brand new car and expecting it to run smoothly and effieciently. This system is corrupt, so why try to flog a dead horse?

Actually my main point would be what you thought about the relationship between truth and democracy. Did you ever stop to think that people might here your truth and accept it, but not want your party?

How can greed and corruption in the political arena be stopped?

From the top.

No, not at this time, but going underground and forming a resistance / paramilitary organisation / international? network may be the only option left for those of us who refuse to surrender to the elite, if 'they' continue to erode basic freedoms and are closing everything down, step by step, and tightening their grip on people.

If you do this, you will be killed. I can almost guarantee it.

the conclusion I came to was, to beat the system we should drop out of the system and refuse to play in the game any longer, If enough people dropped out of their control grid, stopped useing their fake money and started to govern themselves then the system will start to crumble. This is probably wishful thinking as I know most people will go along with the bastards and play their game right up until the very end.

How do the people govern themselves danucrom? Will whoever is at the top not always be corrupt to some degree in the opinions of some? How can the people govern themselves without leaders, but still fairly?


I also wonder about whether anything will materialise on the political front, but I do know people working on this within our movement, but an initial cadre needs to come together and precious few are volunteering to get involved. It wouldn't take many to snowball this but until a serious looking effort transpires...

And think how many votes actually get people elected these days. Not that many. Our supporters are motivated. Their's aren't. In fact many of their voters would switch in an instant if there was a viable alternative, Especially as events unfold in the near future. I'd prefer we were politically ready to take advantage.

This is an excellent post. You have identified every stage of a plan, and what you need to do, in order. So what are you waiting for?

You suggested a "world political party". Political parties if elected/ selected require an army or police force and legal system to force their will on people. If it is a world political organisation then that force is exerted across the world.

Difficult across borders. Lenin wanted his ideology to spread outwards from Russia in 1917 but it didn't get very far. And he had military support, which you don't.

Leading is not a word that can be substituted for the word ruling. They mean different things. What do you mean by "how we expect things to be run"? What exactly needs to be "run" and who is "we"?

There will always be leaders though. It's in our animal nature.

if there's a decent candidate and you don't vote - the elite love it because it means they don't even HAVE to rig the election

Yup.

I am saying the will of the people should form an acceptable leadership that can promote collective interests. I submit there will always be collective interests in the forseeable future although individual Sovereignty should reign supreme and be the basis of, and above, any collectivism.

Can you please expand on your ideas? Thanks.

Again... what is your alternative? Barring some sort of evolution, if you think everyone is going to happily live side by side you are very mistaken. Armed mobs form at the drop of a hat, in a power vacuum. I don't necessarily go along with laws but nevertheless a murderer should usually be brought to justice, a serial killer should be stopped etc.

This paragraph seems to me at odds with the previous one.

Not voting is something I practise. But not out of some personal philosophy... its because they are all unrepresentative and mostly corrupt. For example if DI stood for election as an independant in my area I would vote.

Why would you vote for David Icke and not someone else? What will he be able to do to improve your life? :)

how about free energy machine production and distribution, food distribution... I mean come on. The slightest thought and all sorts of things pop into mind.

How do imagine this taking place?

But the idea isn't to form a party, fixate ideals and then force it on anyone. Its for people to come together and decide amongst them selves what they want.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How is people coming together and deciding among themselves any different to democracy? You might say 'ah, but the elite will be gone' - and I'm saying that a new elite will form. It's not the presence of an elite which is evil, but possibly their motives and methods.

Now lets hear from you naysayers what you want/expect the future to bring 'after' the NWO are gone and how things should operate because we can all criticise anything for the sake of it. That part's easy.

Free market economic republic. Single transferable vote. Two chambers of parliament, both elected. Central government and county councils, and no more RDAs, GOs and other QUANGO bollocks...the list goes on. The most important of these is a republic.

its clear that ALL of them are full of shit and are self-serving minions of the elite - no matter what political party they are in, ALL of them are playing the same dirty game FOR the elite, AGAINST the people, in exchange for their 30 pieces of silver...

May I ask how many MPs you have met?

Year after year Tony Blair and his cronies said that they would do 'this and that' for the people and for the nation, but always they did the exact opposite; and people are getting so sick of their lies, the corruption, the sleaze and their sanctimonious bullshit.

That's an extreme simplification/generalisation. What policies in particular are you referring to?

here in the UK, I honestly think that the political route is closed and sealed tight by the elite; and as I said, although people don't like talking in these terms, it WILL take a more aggressive, direct, 'hands on' approach to bring the elite and their wicked system down.

Maybe sometime in the future I can take you around with me in London for a few days and I can show you things and people which may give you hope before you start living underground with a rifle and an arrest warrant out on you. ;)

look, i'm not saying they should vote in the general elections, but Americans HAVE to vote in the primaries, because thats where the power to choose the candidates is
the media in the US deliberately does not publicise that you have to register for the primaries well in advance, the establishment loves low voter turn out in the primaries coz it means they get to put bushes and clintons in power

Well put. :)

[mightiswrong]

How many fingers do you see?

[cruise4]

"Can you please provide some evidence for these rigged elections you speak of?"

You are fully aware of lost deposits just as one example. Why are you playing the fool?

"Are any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past WORTH joining or supporting though?"

Do you mean 'I don't think any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past are WORTH joining or supporting'? If so can you see how, if I now ask you to post your evidence, the premise sounds reasonable but actually its a ridiculous request?

"Could you please provide evidence to support this claim please?"
Why should he? He's posted his opinion. Now give yours. Attempted Point scoring.

"When did you first start using the term 'sheeple' ? Is this not a negative term to apply to fellow humans?"

Well spotted. Your deductive powers are truly remarkable. Shame it didn't understand the accurate observation involved instead.

"What makes me think it? Good question.

1. Intimate knowledge and experience of the UK Political system
2. Sound knowledge of the US Political system
3. Sound knowledge and experience of the European Union
4. Extensive contacts in UK and European Politics
5. A difference of opinion as to the structure, nature and methods of the elite."

Well its a nice list. But totally devoid of meaningful content. Post your intimate knowledge, your experience, your sound knowledge. Lets hear about your extensive contacts and most of all tell us all about your difference of opinion as to the structure, nature and methods of the elite. What are you here for?

"It's generalisations like this which are literally killing you."

You may be right, but I also have severe reservations about the integrity and quality of most of the political spectrum and no-one is stepping forward in any noticeable manner to prove me wrong. So once again we have an opposing view with no information proffered.

"Where did you learn this history you speak of?"
You mean you don't agree and once again post no information.

"To whom do you refer?"
"Details or examples please?"
He obviously is referring to nearly all of them. Once again you attempt to get something posted which you can attack as oppose to the more honest post your information openly and with a free spirit.

"How many people do you think you'd need to take on NATO?"
Who's going to take on NATO? It would be social breakdown and scorched earth type warfare. I would imagine most people would die fairly quickly on all sides, everywhere if it really kicks off.

"What might that be cruise4?"
How can you be on this board and not know full well? As if.

"Could you expand on this please cruise4?
Antichrist = NWO 1 world government
Christ = peoples 1 world government

"First you would have to get a sufficient number of people to agree on the Truth"
I don't think so. Its the adherence to strive for truth thats the fundamental principle.

"Actually my main point would be what you thought about the relationship between truth and democracy. Did you ever stop to think that people might here your truth and accept it, but not want your party?"

No because it has to be their truth and their 'true' free will or we have nothing at all. Your first question is too open ended to mean anything.

"If you do this, you will be killed. I can almost guarantee it."
We know. Live free or die. I can almost guarantee it whatever.

"How do the people govern themselves danucrom? Will whoever is at the top not always be corrupt to some degree in the opinions of some?"

Thats not what matters. Is 'whoever' corrupt, does.

"How can the people govern themselves without leaders, but still fairly?"
At last a contribution. This is an interesting question worthy of debate.

"This is an excellent post. You have identified every stage of a plan, and what you need to do, in order. So what are you waiting for?"

Circumstance.

"There will always be leaders though. It's in our animal nature."

There certainly seems to have been up until now. Its not entirely out the question that this could change in the future perhaps. Nothing intrinsically wrong with leaders as such. Its how the term is defined.

"Can you please expand on your ideas? Thanks."

Not at this point, I just don't want to get into it here and now.
Suffice to say I believe in Individual sovereignty first and formost.

"This paragraph seems to me at odds with the previous one."
Not really. It relates to those criticising never posting their alternatives so we can examine any merit or otherwise.

"Why would you vote for David Icke and not someone else?"
I would vote for someone else, but I am nearer to trusting DI to actually do whats best for the common man, compared to any politician or establishment figure.

"What will he be able to do to improve your life?"

If in the position where change is possible then there are many things that whoever could do.

"How do imagine this taking place?"
An excellent question. There are a number of unknowns that make a sensible answer impossible at this point.

"This doesn't make any sense to me. How is people coming together and deciding among themselves any different to democracy? You might say 'ah, but the elite will be gone' - and I'm saying that a new elite will form. It's not the presence of an elite which is evil, but possibly their motives and methods."

Because this is a different and much larger question. We are debating whether politics has any future, whether democracy is the right label, humanities future direction, defence against elitism etc. I am talking real profound and radical change. Not tweaking the current system slightly. Its well knackered. Such a discussion must be open to all. I'd also say the term 'the elite' is a construct. These people aren't actually elite anything. Quite the opposite in many cases. Do not forget how social development has been massively manipulated to arrive at a place where Up is Down and Left is Right.
If we are going to Change... lets CHANGE.

"The most important of these is a republic."

I can't disagree with that part but I am still working on alternative ideas to agree or disagree with the rest.

"That's an extreme simplification/generalisation. What policies in particular are you referring to?"

I don't think it is. They lie about everything. You'll be telling us there's a difference between Labour and Conservatives next. You know many examples.

I saw your other post about Nuit etc. Not really related but I'd like to explain my position and I'll leave it alone after this:

You initially come across as a games player, pedantic and a desire to trap via semantic literary construct. Whilst these tactics may suit an Oxford debating forum, here we just want to see your thoughts, your opinions, even your beliefs. The aim is not to win or to score points, but to share in, of, and with each other, whilst we muddle along trying to get at something approaching the truth about exactly whats going on in this increasingly bizarre world.

You can attack the lack of concrete evidence or you can give credence to the amount of material that is available. It is through no fault of the Truth movement that we cannot get access to all the evidence we wish to examine. The research that has been carried out overall is extremely compelling and we are the first to admit not all the i's and the t's have been crossed... yet!

Getting into minutiae does have its place and if in a postion to do so, it can only add to the debate. But such things become a lot easier and reliable once all documentation is freely available for examination. Its like the No Planes Theory. Planes or No planes is already known. When we get our hands on the correct paperwork, we'll know for certain. So why knock ourselves out trying to prove beyond all doubt one way or the other? Its resource sapping egotism performed in a temporary evidential vacuum.

Just about every last thing available about 9/11 has already been posted in forums. If anyone genuinely goes through all this material and tries to say the official version is correct then they are plain wrong as time will tell. So debates on 9/11 can get tiresome in the respect that the opposition tend to want someone else to hone their research for them. As previously stated, the outcome is already known by those that have looked.

Rather than suggesting the NWO is a fear that doesn't exist, instead maybe present additional information that exposes their actual agenda or innocence... because I'd guess most here would agree that the former is largely a waste of our time and the latter a productive and illuminating contribution.

The bottom line is most of us cannot go to Sumeria and translate the ancient tablets for ourselves. Any expectation to therefore dismiss debate based on a 'no proper research' accusation, is farcical. Playing Devil's advocate is perhaps not the most constructive technique available when dealing with personal opinion, belief and intuition type issues.

Not that I'm trying to tell anyone what to say or how to say it. I'm just trying to indicate how the 'approach' can be mis-interpreted or dismissed, on all sides, possibly unfairly. Keep it real. We've had enough illusion.

Despite using words like we etc. I'm only representing my personal view.

[fremmenwarrior]

Adimon,

Thanks for taking so much time and effort in responding to my original post

I was preparing a lengthy reply in an attempt to answer some of your questions, however the latter part of Cruise4's reply to you has covered just about everything I would want to say to you, to answer the many questions and disagreements you have concerning my post.

[adimon]

"Can you please provide some evidence for these rigged elections you speak of?"

You are fully aware of lost deposits just as one example. Why are you playing the fool?

I'm not playing anything. I have worked in elections at all levels in the UK, and have contacts who have acted equivalently in the US. I have seen that the elections we have in the UK are totally fair. I have seen candidates having to draw lots after tied votes go on to become ministers. There are a great many reasons why the various claims that the majority of our political system is inherently corrupt, cannot be true.

In the US, the 2000 election highlighted massive flaws in their system, some of which are still being addressed. The palaver re: hanging and pregnant chads was the centre of a dodgy situation, but I don't believe from all the information I've seen that Bush fixed the election. That's my opinion ok? If anyone has information to the opposite, then I would like to see it, but don't call me a fool, ok? :)

N.B. It may be worth stating at this point that I DO know there are many corruptions to the democracy of both the UK and the US - such as secret societies (Common Purpose being one example), bribes, legislative alterations and cover-ups, but these are all things conducted by people who I believe have been elected fairly, and not 'chosen' by TPTB. Any agents of NWO or secret societies have, IMO, been 'gotten to' after the event, so to speak. Or separate to the event, if groomed prior to their candidacy. But the elections are fair, as far as is possible.

I will also say that I do not believe the political systems of the UK and the US are currently satisfactory and I have massive issues and lobbies of my own on a wide range of issues - to name just one example: parliamentary effciency.

"Are any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past WORTH joining or supporting though?"

Do you mean 'I don't think any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past are WORTH joining or supporting'? If so can you see how, if I now ask you to post your evidence, the premise sounds reasonable but actually its a ridiculous request?

No I do not mean that. Those that I've heard and read about are largely rooted-in or based-on idealistic extremes, or are paramilitary groups. I was asking if others disagreed and felt that a decent minority movement has been crushed which did deserve credence?

"Could you please provide evidence to support this claim please?"
Why should he? He's posted his opinion. Now give yours. Attempted Point scoring.

Ok, I've covered most of this above. I'm happy to discuss specific examples should anyone be interested.

"When did you first start using the term 'sheeple' ? Is this not a negative term to apply to fellow humans?"

Well spotted. Your deductive powers are truly remarkable. Shame it didn't understand the accurate observation involved instead.

I understood the observation, and I understand your sarcasm and I understand why you demonise people like me whose viewpoints differ so much from your own. I don't however, understand why a term is necessary to refer to "the vast majority of public society with no prior knowledge or interest in their own personal investigation of international politics, secret societies and conspiracy theories".

I loathe the term conspiracy theory/theorist too, but I doubt I'm alone on that one.

"What makes me think it? Good question.

1. Intimate knowledge and experience of the UK Political system
2. Sound knowledge of the US Political system
3. Sound knowledge and experience of the European Union
4. Extensive contacts in UK and European Politics
5. A difference of opinion as to the structure, nature and methods of the elite."

Well its a nice list. But totally devoid of meaningful content. Post your intimate knowledge, your experience, your sound knowledge. Lets hear about your extensive contacts and most of all tell us all about your difference of opinion as to the structure, nature and methods of the elite. What are you here for?

I'm sorry you don't like my list. It was a way of presenting context, not content. Should you wish for details or examples of any of the things I discuss I am happy to do so, but I'm afraid I can't condense 20 years of firsthand political experience into an article which could be posted here.

Perhaps you would like a slight expansion on the above? OK, let's see...

1. Intimate knowledge and experience of the UK Political system

My father is a politician. He is affiliated with a political party which I do not support. He is at a high enough level, however, for me to have come into contact with other politicians from EVERY level of the system. Some of these men and women are friends, some are people I can honestly say I trust, and others not, but this judgement is based on many years of experience and insight, rather than a generalised view that "all politicians are.... x y z"
I myself have also worked in the House of Commons as a researcher, in the Civil Service as an Executive Officer, and have also gathered intelligence and prepared reports which have landed in the hands of other outside interests which have put me at risk of prosecution under the OSA. I performed this last activity because of my belief that some things are too important to be kept hidden, and I knew that the British public would have a chance of being better off (no matter how small, or in what way).
I have also served in HM Armed Forces as an Officer, which gave me the opportunity to make contacts at Senior level.

2. Sound knowledge of the US Political system

I say sound as opposed to intimate because my knowledge is based 80% on second-hand information, and only 20% on experience, but let it suffice to say that I have contacts in US politics up to the level of Congressman on the party-political side, and to the level of Chief NATO negotiator on the non-party-political side. I am also in continual correspondence with contacts from all levels of pressure group and lobby organisations - on a variety of different topics.

3. Sound knowledge and experience of the European Union

Ditto number 2, but European.

4. Extensive contacts in UK and European Politics

Basically you name them...

5. A difference of opinion as to the structure, nature and methods of the elite."

This is the hardest one to stay concise on, but basically my view of the elite is of men in commercial, military and legislative bodies working together, partly in secret, largely in the open, to further agendas which may not be congruent with democracy. I believe there is more to 9/11 than meets the eye, and I have investigated a number of CTs which have led me to the same conclusion as many of the people who post on this board, but I believe in logic and a scientific approach, and do not blindly believe anything without thorough investigation. I have studied key areas of history and politics very extensively and have found anomalies, scandals, and outright lies and cover-ups, but have not allowed my intuition to run away with me and start believing that EVERYTHING is connected by false logic from my own mind.

If you're interested, you could look through some of my older posts and find my viewpoints outlined, sometimes in more detail than others.

As for why I'm here, I've been through than a number of times and can't be bothered to do so again. Search for "adimon, I am here because" and you might find the other 5 or more occasions I've had to state it to the forum having been accused of being everything from a servant of General Hayden, to a Scandinavian monster, to another forum member of the opposite sex!

"It's generalisations like this which are literally killing you."

You may be right, but I also have severe reservations about the integrity and quality of most of the political spectrum and no-one is stepping forward in any noticeable manner to prove me wrong. So once again we have an opposing view with no information proffered.

From what I've written above you will see that I am neither stepping forward nor cowering from the curiousity of other truthseekers. In order for me to take time out from my own research to help others there are a few prerequisites, and one of those is respect and mutual trust. I'll say no more.

"Where did you learn this history you speak of?"
You mean you don't agree and once again post no information.

I mean that this paragraph is a generalisation, a simplification, and in some regards an outright falsehood, but has been presented as truth:-

For those few potential leaders who showed any ounce of morality, decency, honesty and integrity, who would govern with the best interests of country and people at heart, who dared to go against the Illuminati agenda, then the elite either tried to buy them off first - then, if they still refused to be bought into line, the elite SILENCED and ERASED their asses!

If a poster believes that this paragraph is true, maybe they could provide twenty examples. I've already referred above to one example which contradicts such a view.

"To whom do you refer?"
"Details or examples please?"
He obviously is referring to nearly all of them. Once again you attempt to get something posted which you can attack as oppose to the more honest post your information openly and with a free spirit.

Not at all. You have an interesting take on my posting style and methodology, but you're quite wrong. I'm not looking to attack. I wouldn't bother doing that it would be a waste of my valuable time.

Depending on who is referred to as a political saviour, and what actions are being described as...

a dark wake of suffering, despair, and chaos - a terrible legacy of lies, corruption, embezzlement, drug and sex scandals, fraud, bloodshed and yes, even mass murder, all as a direct result of THEIR reckless and corrupt political policies, both at home and abroad

then I might agree, but would also disagree that any such situation could be summarised as purely intentional. In the case of Idi Amin for example, he rallied his country's support with sweeping promises (lies) but was bent on corruption and genocied, yet there are outside and more complicated forces at work, some of which can be linked back to the engineering of the elite, as I have described it above, and some which are outside of that elite's controls. No historical event is ever so simple that it can be summarised or extrapolated into a paragraph in this fashion, IMO.

"How many people do you think you'd need to take on NATO?"
Who's going to take on NATO? It would be social breakdown and scorched earth type warfare. I would imagine most people would die fairly quickly on all sides, everywhere if it really kicks off.

I think I'll leave this one if you don't mind. Firstly I can seemy replies on this topic provoking further "You're a trained killer with a psychopath's mindset" comments such as I've had in the past, and can't really be bothered with them. Secondly, I was on the understanding that some posters on this thread were advocating direct paramilitary action to undermine the establishment, and I was merely trying to picture how such an organisation or organisations would attempt to do this, given the size and power of the enemy which would be deployed against them.

"What might that be cruise4?"
How can you be on this board and not know full well? As if.

Well I can think of countless concepts which have been mentioned on this forum - Nibiru, 2012, SHTF, etc.. but as to which you are actually referring I'm not sure.

"Could you expand on this please cruise4?
Antichrist = NWO 1 world government
Christ = peoples 1 world government

I'm afraid I still don't understand the main drive of your concept from these equations. Are you talking about people uniting under Christianity to fight the NWO? :confused:

"First you would have to get a sufficient number of people to agree on the Truth"
I don't think so. Its the adherence to strive for truth thats the fundamental principle.

Interesting. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. :)

"Actually my main point would be what you thought about the relationship between truth and democracy. Did you ever stop to think that people might here your truth and accept it, but not want your party?"

No because it has to be their truth and their 'true' free will or we have nothing at all. Your first question is too open ended to mean anything.

All I'm saying is that I know of no group of more than three people of which I've ever heard of or known, have agreed on very much, enough to survive very many iterations of outside challenge, or be very effective. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just want to know how people think they will reconcile the inevitable differences. The most obvious split in any group is over the means of violence. Have I made the point any clearer at all?

"If you do this, you will be killed. I can almost guarantee it."
We know. Live free or die. I can almost guarantee it whatever.

We'll have to ATD again, I think.

"How do the people govern themselves danucrom? Will whoever is at the top not always be corrupt to some degree in the opinions of some?"

Thats not what matters. Is 'whoever' corrupt, does.

I'm interested in what you might precisely mean by this, but I don't understand, I'm sorry. :)

"How can the people govern themselves without leaders, but still fairly?"
At last a contribution. This is an interesting question worthy of debate.

Thank you. It is a question I am very interested in. Any thoughts? :)

"This is an excellent post. You have identified every stage of a plan, and what you need to do, in order. So what are you waiting for?"

Circumstance.

Could you be more specific? Is this the 2012 concept again? :confused:

"There will always be leaders though. It's in our animal nature."

There certainly seems to have been up until now. Its not entirely out the question that this could change in the future perhaps. Nothing intrinsically wrong with leaders as such. Its how the term is defined.

I'm glad you agree on the importance of human nature in this regard. I also think that this nature encourages leaders to take more control than necessary due to the animal fear of being usurped. At intervals in international politics you can see this 'life and death struggle' drama being enacted by statesmen quite starkly. I've looked into this and cannot determine what balance in this situation could alleviate this fear of usurpation. The thing is, any attempt to alter the political infrastructure to make it less autocratic, and therefore more inherently stable, is seen as usurpation. Any attempt to actually lessen the stress of a leader also. And leaders will always emerge. And leaders to replace them. Is this not so?

"Can you please expand on your ideas? Thanks."

Not at this point, I just don't want to get into it here and now.
Suffice to say I believe in Individual sovereignty first and formost.

Fair enough. :)

"This paragraph seems to me at odds with the previous one."
Not really. It relates to those criticising never posting their alternatives so we can examine any merit or otherwise.

Sure, but my alternative is something I have indicated a number of times in similar such threads which just die out when the more liberal or libertarian poster with whom I am debating disappears without ever imparting the critical part of their argument.

I think my post here is long enough to feed further discussion which might fall out of it or previous posts by others.

"Why would you vote for David Icke and not someone else?"
I would vote for someone else, but I am nearer to trusting DI to actually do whats best for the common man, compared to any politician or establishment figure.

Thanks for answering my question. Needless to say, I don't have the same trust in David or the requisite common ground IOT vote for him. Is there anyone else you would trust in this regard?

In case you're interested, I would be happy to vote for Ron Paul if I were American. I do feel he would make a positive impact as President. I don't think he will win the primaries though :(

"What will he be able to do to improve your life?"

If in the position where change is possible then there are many things that whoever could do.

Very true. David has never really spoken about what he wants to see happen in his post-Green Party days has he, though? What would you imagine would be his manifesto of actions he would enact if elected?

"How do imagine this taking place?"
An excellent question. There are a number of unknowns that make a sensible answer impossible at this point.

Ok, but it's a key question for subscribers to the political action you are suggesting/predicting IMO.

"This doesn't make any sense to me. How is people coming together and deciding among themselves any different to democracy? You might say 'ah, but the elite will be gone' - and I'm saying that a new elite will form. It's not the presence of an elite which is evil, but possibly their motives and methods."

Because this is a different and much larger question. We are debating whether politics has any future, whether democracy is the right label, humanities future direction, defence against elitism etc. I am talking real profound and radical change. Not tweaking the current system slightly. Its well knackered. Such a discussion must be open to all.

How would you envisage a discussion which is open to all?

I'd also say the term 'the elite' is a construct. These people aren't actually elite anything. Quite the opposite in many cases. Do not forget how social development has been massively manipulated to arrive at a place where Up is Down and Left is Right.

Well elite doesn't have a necessarily vertical implication. It just means narrow, not opportune-free. I agree with you their power is reliant not just on their own capabilities but more on the draining of others'.

If we are going to Change... lets CHANGE.

Which I'd say will only ever occur through reform, and not by revolution.

"The most important of these is a republic."

I can't disagree with that part but I am still working on alternative ideas to agree or disagree with the rest.

That's good. Me too.

"That's an extreme simplification/generalisation. What policies in particular are you referring to?"

I don't think it is. They lie about everything. You'll be telling us there's a difference between Labour and Conservatives next. You know many examples.

The differences are relativel miniscule to the similarities I will give you that. But my point was that some of the policies which TB and NL said they would introduce, they have introduced. The net result may be different to what they hoped/imagined/promised, but legislature is not the exact science it should be. The law that is written does not accurately lead to the desired outcome in all cases (one could argue the majority of cases).

From what I've read, a number of posters here would argue that there is no inefficiency or incompetence on the part of the authorities, and that no situation is ever by accident, or left to chance, but is the specific design of the NWO. I disagree entirely, because I have lived and seen this occuring.

I saw your other post about Nuit etc. Not really related but I'd like to explain my position and I'll leave it alone after this:

You initially come across as a games player, pedantic and a desire to trap via semantic literary construct.

I'm a pedantic person, guilty as charged. This is due to my belief that details matter. I don't really know why I believe this, but I've tried believing the opposite, that the net result is the only focus, but it didn't seem right to me. The first example that popped into my head was my insistence that when playing a board game that the rules are adhered to. I'm not a rule nazi that get bitchy or shouts if they aren't followed, but I really don't understand why people would feel the need to play a game if they wanted to invent new rules or disregard existent ones. A game is an imposition on an indivdual or group of a set of rules. That's what it is in essence - a straight jacket. And the player(s) try to break their way out of he jacket in order to win the prize (freedom). If rules aren't for you, then don't play games. So on the first charge, games player, I am also guilty as charged. And while my satire here may confirm for you that I am indeed a player of games in the way that you intended the phrase to mean, I hope that you will be able to get my sense of humour, and accept my ensurance that I am a poster here for entirely noble reasons, and the principle reason of these is a quest for truth, the same as you. I have no desire to trap anybody I debate with. If they feel trapped then maybe a dissection of that conversation would reveal how and why it occurred. It is certainly not my intention.

Whilst these tactics may suit an Oxford debating forum, here we just want to see your thoughts, your opinions, even your beliefs. The aim is not to win or to score points, but to share in, of, and with each other, whilst we muddle along trying to get at something approaching the truth about exactly whats going on in this increasingly bizarre world.

Further to what I have just written, I assure you I have no tactics, and what I post is indeed my thoughts, opinions and beliefs. I have no intention of scoring points and am well aware of my own strengths and weaknesses, the positive side of my personality and my flaws. Subsequent to this, whilst I can't envisage there will be no further doubts as to my motives, given my relatively fringe beliefs on a forum such as this, I do hope that there will be no further doubts from yourself. Any such insistence that you had a better analysis of my thoughts, opinions and beliefs, stronger than the aenima I put into them in the first place, would appear to me an attempt at censorship, a message that would sya 'Not welcome' - hardly the knd of message I receive from most Icke-supporting posters, I'm glad to say.

You can attack the lack of concrete evidence or you can give credence to the amount of material that is available. It is through no fault of the Truth movement that we cannot get access to all the evidence we wish to examine. The research that has been carried out overall is extremely compelling and we are the first to admit not all the i's and the t's have been crossed... yet!

Access is indeed a key component of the truthseeking process, which is why I refrain from making public (outside of the forum) anything which might jeopardise the access I currently enjoy. My access is mine to use as I see fit, and I have helped those with a desire for such access in the past, but I must be cautious and employ a strong vetting procedure or, as you can imagine, I might land myself in a tight spot. Any legislature-related information protected by the OSA could land me in prison, and any military-related info could land me in The Glasshouse - which I can assure you is ten times worse! :eek:

Getting into minutiae does have its place and if in a postion to do so, it can only add to the debate. But such things become a lot easier and reliable once all documentation is freely available for examination. Its like the No Planes Theory. Planes or No planes is already known. When we get our hands on the correct paperwork, we'll know for certain. So why knock ourselves out trying to prove beyond all doubt one way or the other? Its resource sapping egotism performed in a temporary evidential vacuum.

Just about every last thing available about 9/11 has already been posted in forums. If anyone genuinely goes through all this material and tries to say the official version is correct then they are plain wrong as time will tell. So debates on 9/11 can get tiresome in the respect that the opposition tend to want someone else to hone their research for them. As previously stated, the outcome is already known by those that have looked.

Great stuff! I really like your thinking here and agree in as much that the movement needs a better direction.

What direction do you advocate for the 9/11 movement?

Rather than suggesting the NWO is a fear that doesn't exist, instead maybe present additional information that exposes their actual agenda or innocence... because I'd guess most here would agree that the former is largely a waste of our time and the latter a productive and illuminating contribution.

This is even better and I agree with it entirely. In response, I would like to say that my research, my writing in the academic world, and my posting here, is aimed at addressing, and in some cases, redressing the 2nd point. While some may not be able to see it or believe it, my qestions, though sometimes quite blunt or even scathing, are my way of highlighting my current thoughtson the nature of the NWO - as I've described it above.

The bottom line is most of us cannot go to Sumeria and translate the ancient tablets for ourselves. Any expectation to therefore dismiss debate based on a 'no proper research' accusation, is farcical. Playing Devil's advocate is perhaps not the most constructive technique available when dealing with personal opinion, belief and intuition type issues.

I only play Devil's Advocate when I suspect that someone is withholding their true thoughts, and I ALWAYS own up to doing so very shortly after, and hen state my own position clearly. As for your mention of Sumeria, I think the evidence suggests that the NWO does NOT go back that far. That's my belief anyway. To bring my long, drawn-out post a little more on-topic, I'd say that there has been too much subtle history of political leaders which makes it impossible for me to believe that they were all linked.

Not that I'm trying to tell anyone what to say or how to say it. I'm just trying to indicate how the 'approach' can be mis-interpreted or dismissed, on all sides, possibly unfairly. Keep it real. We've had enough illusion.

Despite using words like we etc. I'm only representing my personal view.

Thank you for sharing your view with me. I hope that this gargantuan ramble assists in some way.

[cruise4]

"I have seen that the elections we have in the UK are totally fair"

"I will also say that I do not believe the political systems of the UK and the US are currently satisfactory"

I didn't say you were a fool. I said 'playing the fool' and I put it to you the above two statements give some credence to my one off comment.

"but I'm afraid I can't condense 20 years of firsthand political experience into an article which could be posted here."

The expanded answer suffices.

Re. Sheeple is used usually because the user may think everything we think we know is a lie and most of what we are told are lies turn out to be the truth. This is a label relating to more than you suggest. For example lets say Red Shift is down to the (young) age of objects not some light doppler effect and there is no big bang, no darwinian evolution and the Universe is electric. In this scenario... Physics, Biology, Medicine, Chemistry and much more would have proven to be based on nonsense.(1) Now I'm not claiming this is the case, and there's a variety of others such as the Holographic Universe. But I hope you understand the nature of the sleep we are potentially talking about and why sheeple being led by the nose may have significant depth from a point of view.

(1) Not exactly nonsense as say, the holographic matrix has properties at any time that are exploitable by these fields. But its secondary to the 'real' cause in this scenario.


Nor am I demonising you. Nor am I convinced your viewpoints differ so much from mine.

"I've already referred above to one example which contradicts such a view."

I am unsure what you are referring to here. What example?

There are plenty of cases of people being killed. Whether they are 'leaders' or not qualifies it. JFK is the obvious. There is talk now of Ron paul 'being removed'. Bhutto. It goes on. Where are the free energy inventors etc. but going off the 'leaders' angle. There is no shortage of figures killed for politics.

"disagree that any such situation could be summarised as purely intentional"

I'm not buying that. If its not intentional then there's some real clowns got into positions. Most of what we are railing against could be sorted easily. They are NOT that incompetent.

"Well I can think of countless concepts which have been mentioned on this forum - Nibiru, 2012, SHTF, etc.. but as to which you are actually referring I'm not sure."

Any of them. I have no idea whats to happen so don't rule it out. If NASA are releasing accurate info. then the cosmos is doing something weird.

"I'm afraid I still don't understand the main drive of your concept from these equations. Are you talking about people uniting under Christianity to fight the NWO?"

Whilst Christ, Antichrist have religious connotations they also have a correspondance to light and spirit type ideas. The second coming part is obvious. It was just a thought that struck me... successive world governments after the first one proves corrupt and falls. No major point... just a passing thought.

"Interesting. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one."
"All I'm saying is that I know of no group of more than three people of which I've ever heard of or known, have agreed on very much"
"The most obvious split in any group is over the means of violence"

I'm confused over these paragraphs. I have not been talking about organising resistance groups or advocating violence. Truth may be un-atainable, but a desire to 'aim at the truth' is OK. Not clear here.

"be corrupt to some degree in the opinions of some?"

I may have the opinion David Beckham cannot play football.

"Thank you. It is a question I am very interested in. Any thoughts?"
The internet? conciousness change? Rapid turnover? Haven't thought about it at all really but those came immediately to mind as possibly involved. I will give it some more thought over time. You?

"Could you be more specific? Is this the 2012 concept again?"
No not 2012 concept. If opportunity and timing as well as personal circumstances happened to combine then maybe something could be done.
That situation is not here and even it was I want radical evolution not tinkering with what we have so I'm not bothered if everyone lets it go to hell in a handbasket. I can survive better than most. Plus I believe we don't end.

"And leaders will always emerge. And leaders to replace them. Is this not so?"

Yes. But if they are leading small government with no councils and no personal taxes etc. I don't care so much. The usurping has been done by them. I'd look for government from gardeners first.

"Sure, but my alternative is something I have indicated a number of times in similar such threads which just die out when the more liberal or libertarian poster with whom I am debating disappears without ever imparting the critical part of their argument."

I didn't mean you. We have the same complaint on this issue.

David Icke was just an example in haste. You've read to much into it. I'm not 100% sure DI isn't part of Project Bluebeam. But I hope not.
I would also vote for Ron paul. I think the election will be rife with fraud in many ways. It depends on what people say and do and how intuitively I feel about them. I can't think of any politicians at the moment but if you stick a few names out. There are a few in the truth movement perhaps.

"What would you imagine would be his manifesto of actions he would enact if elected?"
That answer would require as many books as David has written. My own ideas would go along lines of de-construction of much of government and its tentacles. I'm hard pushed to think of anything that would stay the same.

"Ok, but it's a key question for subscribers to the political action you are suggesting/predicting IMO."

***Yes. I've realised you are rooted in present politico and I'm coming from a conspiracy uncovered and over with angle... so we have different constraints. This is where I think a certain confusion originates. For example... if they have these underground cities and two mile an hour tunnelling machines that coat the walls with obsidian then the distribution possibilities are different to the known present. The point being, what tech is available at this time really? I believe its a great deal more advanced than most know. Until I know, any distribution network planning would be pointless.

"How would you envisage a discussion which is open to all?"
The Truth Movement perhaps? It is a tricky one because everyone has been and is being fed rubbish. But I say again... I'm looking at evolution of human conciousness so we'll have to see what shakes out.
The internet is a potential tool in the future.

"Which I'd say will only ever occur through reform, and not by revolution."
*** relates here again I'd say. Spiritual evolution, spiritual revolution I'm guessing are outside your criteria, but I'm hoping for this type of fundamental change in the human psyche.

"From what I've read, a number of posters here would argue that there is no inefficiency or incompetence on the part of the authorities, and that no situation is ever by accident, or left to chance, but is the specific design of the NWO. I disagree entirely, because I have lived and seen this occuring."

Are you sure you'd know if a hidden hand was directing the play? If you are sure, and the above is indeed the case... then a 7 year old could do a better job. These people shouldn't be let out on their own if they are as incompetent as you suggest.

Fair play on the last paragraphs. I also thank you for sharing your views with me. Bloody hard work answering posts like these so I urge you to consider not bothering in this manner. Just slap a paragraph together if you wish to reply. :)

[somewarez]

471...


I'll explain when it happens

there is a 1 with a 471

forgive my irrelevance, maybe in 471 more it will become, perhaps less.

[adimon]

"I have seen that the elections we have in the UK are totally fair"

"I will also say that I do not believe the political systems of the UK and the US are currently satisfactory"

I didn't say you were a fool. I said 'playing the fool' and I put it to you the above two statements give some credence to my one off comment.

I disagree, but fair enough.

"but I'm afraid I can't condense 20 years of firsthand political experience into an article which could be posted here."

The expanded answer suffices.

Glad.

Re. Sheeple is used usually because the user may think everything we think we know is a lie and most of what we are told are lies turn out to be the truth.

That's fine, but I again stress the balance between logic and intuition whichis a cornerstone of my methodology.

But I hope you understand the nature of the sleep we are potentially talking about and why sheeple being led by the nose may have significant depth from a point of view.

Yes I do. But whilst I appreciate it's not impossible that Icke is right with his talk of holograms, matrices and infinite love and souls, to me that is faith, a religion if you will.

"I've already referred above to one example which contradicts such a view."

I am unsure what you are referring to here. What example?

The leaders of the British legislature whom I have met.

There are plenty of cases of people being killed. Whether they are 'leaders' or not qualifies it. JFK is the obvious. There is talk now of Ron paul 'being removed'. Bhutto. It goes on. Where are the free energy inventors etc. but going off the 'leaders' angle. There is no shortage of figures killed for politics.

Yes but lets not assume that every heart attack is a CIA-enforced digitalis poisoning etc.. some deaths are accidental, and should be examined in context. Bhutto is too early to draw conclusions.

Ron Paul will not be assassinated. He will come 3rd at best in the Republican primaries, with Guiliani in 2nd and McCain probably taking the nomination. The Dems will prob opt for Billary, and the GOP will keep the White House.

"disagree that any such situation could be summarised as purely intentional"

I'm not buying that. If its not intentional then there's some real clowns got into positions. Most of what we are railing against could be sorted easily. They are NOT that incompetent.

Can you give me what you consider to be the best example to support your case?

"Well I can think of countless concepts which have been mentioned on this forum - Nibiru, 2012, SHTF, etc.. but as to which you are actually referring I'm not sure."

Any of them. I have no idea whats to happen so don't rule it out. If NASA are releasing accurate info. then the cosmos is doing something weird.

Ok I get what you're saying. NASA are liars plain and simple, but they aint the only ones looking at the cosmos and Nibiru is fucking lunacy as far as I'm concerned.

"Thank you. It is a question I am very interested in. Any thoughts?"
The internet? conciousness change? Rapid turnover? Haven't thought about it at all really but those came immediately to mind as possibly involved. I will give it some more thought over time. You?

Well I do think about it from time to time, but I believe in leadership, and libertarian, small government, as opposed to anarchy.

That situation is not here and even it was I want radical evolution not tinkering with what we have so I'm not bothered if everyone lets it go to hell in a handbasket. I can survive better than most. Plus I believe we don't end.

Fair enough. I think this is another ATD.

David Icke was just an example in haste. You've read to much into it. I'm not 100% sure DI isn't part of Project Bluebeam. But I hope not.

I'm not sure if David is sane or not, disinfo or misinfo, but I do think he is leading a great many people on a wild goose chase, intentionally or not remains to be seen IMO.

I would also vote for Ron paul. I think the election will be rife with fraud in many ways.

I'm gonna go to Florida for the election and monitor. Wouldnt be anywhere else.

My own ideas would go along lines of de-construction of much of government and its tentacles. I'm hard pushed to think of anything that would stay the same.

NHS? State pension? Property? Protectorate?

"Ok, but it's a key question for subscribers to the political action you are suggesting/predicting IMO."

For example... if they have these underground cities and two mile an hour tunnelling machines that coat the walls with obsidian then the distribution possibilities are different to the known present. The point being, what tech is available at this time really? I believe its a great deal more advanced than most know. Until I know, any distribution network planning would be pointless.

This is very interesting, but here's a question - where do concepts like this come from. Military industrial does of course have more advanced technology, but it's really only got one goal in mind, which is monopoly of the means of violence, as I see it.

Spiritual evolution, spiritual revolution I'm guessing are outside your criteria, but I'm hoping for this type of fundamental change in the human psyche.

Yes you guessed right. Any such thing is based on faith, which I don't get down with.

"From what I've read, a number of posters here would argue that there is no inefficiency or incompetence on the part of the authorities, and that no situation is ever by accident, or left to chance, but is the specific design of the NWO. I disagree entirely, because I have lived and seen this occuring."

Are you sure you'd know if a hidden hand was directing the play? If you are sure, and the above is indeed the case... then a 7 year old could do a better job. These people shouldn't be let out on their own if they are as incompetent as you suggest.

Its more complicated than that. Think about the size of just one department of the civil service - take the old DTI as an example. Now think about the thousands of sheeple as you call them who churn out the paperwork and perform the ministry's functions. Everything gets convoluted, and in many cases diluted. Its not just incompetence on an individual level, or as a simple duality, it's an incredibly complex and uncontrived mess, with some sporadic nepotistic and corrupt forced moves, believe me.

As for you question about the hidden hand, I've already said in my last post, and mentioned it again just now, that there are undoubtedly hidden hands tapping people on the shoulder, and in some cases playing punch and judy, but this is not an all-of-the-time, all-of-the-people OR all-of-the bills scenario.

Fair play on the last paragraphs. I also thank you for sharing your views with me. Bloody hard work answering posts like these so I urge you to consider not bothering in this manner. Just slap a paragraph together if you wish to reply. :)

Should taper back to shorter posts for both of us now I've got that main lot out the way. And ditto to you, if you don't want to respond to a certain pat of my post, I don't mind one iota if you skip it. :)

[cruise4]

Can you give me what you consider to be the best example to support your case?

The entry into the European Union is NOT incompetence. Its Treason.

"Ok I get what you're saying. NASA are liars plain and simple, but they aint the only ones looking at the cosmos and Nibiru is fucking lunacy as far as I'm concerned."

Every chance you are right re. Niburu. I am not a sitchen fan. But I mean more about the Solar minimum, Polar Hexagon on Saturn, Jupiter spot reversal and new secondary spot, luminescense of Venus, Pluto etc. Do you think they are lying about these things? Others do seem to confirm but who's who is hard to tell.

"Fair enough. I think this is another ATD."

Whats ATD stand for. As I'm in computing you may appreciate how many abbreviations I have to translate.

"I'm not sure if David is sane or not"
I think he's sane alright. Bar reptilians I have no problems with what he says. I don't categorically say this isn't possible, but I see reptilian stuff more associated with DNA symbolism.

"I'm gonna go to Florida for the election and monitor. Wouldnt be anywhere else."
Great stuff. It will be interesting to compare your observations with others in the 'conspiracy' field at the time. I hope you will post 'as it happens' sort of thing, on this site.

"NHS? State pension? Property? Protectorate?"
NHS would go. State pension would go. Property ownership would differ in that you are caretakers for as long as you want. Protectorate would be along the lines of Switzerland maybe. No unemployment benefit. No state education. No state nothing if possible.

Not cast in stone, these ideas but I want government out of everyone's lives and personal responsibility placed firmly back on the table. This will frighten some, perhaps many, currently ensnared in social illusions. I also want to avoid wherever possible opportunities to 'accumulate'. But this is a massive subject with many many intertwining aspects so take what I say as indicative only please. Of course there would be social advantages to balance out perceived negatives. For example I suspect there's a way to give everyone the independant ability to have the mainstays of life for free or very nearly. Therefore if they want to do more... or less... its a genuine lifestyle choice. You would not have to work 9-5, if at all, so ideas of home-schooling, community schooling, community work, society work, family unit become feasible. People set free will achieve far far more in a much shorter timespan is my belief. I do not think natural and free living people are lazy. The society around us today is slowly killing humanity.

"which is monopoly of the means of violence"
Underground retreats falls into that category. I could have used free energy as another example. I am convinced this exists 99%.

"Any such thing is based on faith"
Time will tell. I think you are wrong in such a simplistic polarity.

"Its more complicated than that." etc.
It still needs changing then.

[adimon]

Thanks cruise4.

Can you give me what you consider to be the best example to support your case?

The entry into the European Union is NOT incompetence. Its Treason.

By the end of the month, I will have edited and compiled my winter's investigations into EU, Common Purpose and other matters further afield. As well as posting here, I will PM you since you will clearly make good use of it.

"Fair enough. I think this is another ATD."

Whats ATD stand for. As I'm in computing you may appreciate how many abbreviations I have to translate.

Agree to disagree. Sorry, I did explain my abbrev a few posts ago I thought, maybe I forgot or you missed it. Are you into Linux/GNU?

"I'm not sure if David is sane or not"
I think he's sane alright. Bar reptilians I have no problems with what he says. I don't categorically say this isn't possible, but I see reptilian stuff more associated with DNA symbolism.

Have you met DI?

"I'm gonna go to Florida for the election and monitor. Wouldnt be anywhere else."
Great stuff. It will be interesting to compare your observations with others in the 'conspiracy' field at the time. I hope you will post 'as it happens' sort of thing, on this site.

Yes of course. I'm going out there with a DA view against my real beliefs. Bush supports McCain, who is most likely to win, so if the Bush family are gonna make a move its in Tallahassee.
[QUOTE]
"NHS? State pension? Property? Protectorate?"
NHS would go. State pension would go. Property ownership would differ in that you are caretakers for as long as you want. Protectorate would be along the lines of Switzerland maybe. No unemployment benefit. No state education. No state nothing if possible.

NHS = only good thing solely for the public that the legislature has created in C20th. State pension = lifeline for some. Property = paramount to me. Protectorate = same as now, minus government ownership of unused land.

"which is monopoly of the means of violence"
Underground retreats falls into that category. I could have used free energy as another example. I am convinced this exists 99%.

I'm unconvinced 99%

"Any such thing is based on faith"
Time will tell. I think you are wrong in such a simplistic polarity.

ATD.

"Its more complicated than that." etc.
It still needs changing then.

No, that's exactly why I have trust in it. :)

[lizzy]

Anyone who who faith in the system has a severe perception problem.
adimon that means you.

[danucrom]

Anyone who who faith in the system has a severe perception problem.
adimon that means you.

Its unbelieveable, there are so many people on this forum that are just as conditioned as the average idiot on the street, they only difference is that they think that they are awake, ha ha ha.

You also have many people on this forum who actually promote the elite as misunderstood good guys and think the scumbags ideas are wonderful:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16930&page=15

[cruise4]

I have dabbled with Linux but for various reasons I have to use windows. I will change this to Open Source asap. I build and fix them more than the programming side although I have done some of that, so I have to stay current with whatever people use. Exceedingly bored with all this computing though. Its a useful trade for dropping out the system.

Great on your analysis. Look forward to it.

No, I've not met DI. I have seen his journey from Sports commentator to now but hey, I'll be the first to admit I don't know. The very nature of the information will tend to make left brain orientated people nervous. I think there has been an agenda to suppress right sided thinking and this is part of the overall problem. Innocent until proven guilty on this front for me. Intuitively I like him.

"NHS = only good thing solely for the public that the legislature has created in C20th. State pension = lifeline for some. Property = paramount to me. Protectorate = same as now, minus government ownership of unused land."

Again we come at this from completely different perspectives. I think the NHS is paid for people being ill. Much illness could be avoided, prevented and cured. Done properly this service could shrink by as much as 95%. Surplus to be taken up by private charity or community level social service.

State pension is a lifeline for some... in the present scenario. The family unit has been mercilessly attacked to create dependance on the state. That needs a reversal to achieve no state pension. Surplus to be taken up by private charity or community level social service.

Property... tell me... if you live in house and garden for 50 years what difference has it made to the quality of the time you spent there by owning it? I'd say none. In a situation of mortgage, purchase and inflationary banking practise... its a different story. But that's a financial reason and the financial sector needs dismantling. This idea is linked to freedom to roam and free housing. (Plus debt forgiveness in the obviously needed transition period).

Protectorate - if we could get rid of these people running around playing James Bond and cease the meddling everywhere I believe much peace would be restored. Given the nature of our current predicament I want the individual to always have the right to bear arms, whilst any other entity can.

So again your ideas make sense now within this manipulated madhouse. Mine don't. But they could in the future.

Re. Free energy. I never go above 99%. Thats as certain as it gets with me. So we will see who's right. I haven't plucked this idea out of thin air, but, unfairly I know, thats all I'm going to say on it. I'll just qualify free energy as meaning economically free.

"No, that's exactly why I have trust in it."
You were right. We are poles apart in many ways:D

[fremmenwarrior]

Adimon,

I'll answer each of your long list of questions as I get the time. Your first question about you requiring evidence of rigged (UK) elections:

You asked me: "Can you please provide some evidence for these rigged elections you speak of?"

(Note: I've deleted the names of people involved, but posted these UK News items to prove my point and provide the evidence you require).

POLICE ON ALERT OVER UK 'VOTE FRAUD' (04.05.2006)

Birmingham has been dogged by vote fraud allegations. Extra police have been deployed at UK polling stations in some parts of the country amid vote rigging fears. West Yorkshire police say they are investigating a "large number" of vote fraud claims in Bradford. And West Midlands police have launched an investigation in Birmingham, which saw LARGE SCALE vote fraud during 2004's council elections. Police Officers are keeping watch at polling stations in both areas in an effort to prevent foul play and intimidation.

UK VOTE RIGGING TRIAL CONTINUES (06.10.2006)

The trial of two Liberal Democrat councillors accused of a "criminal agreement" to rig a local election using proxy votes continues. Councillors xxxxxx, 58, and xxxxxx, 44, deny conspiracy to defraud the returning officer of Burnley Borough Council. Prosecutors claim postal voting forms were collected from voters and cast for the Lib Dems without their knowledge. Mr xxxxxx and Mr xxxxxx, both sitting councillors at Burnley Council, are accused of defrauding more than 160 voters in June 2004. The pair "took advantage" of the all-postal vote to ensure xxxxxx's re-election in the Daneshouse with Stoneyholme ward, Preston Crown Court has heard. Prosecutors told the jury voters had handed over voting forms to Mr xxxxxx when he went knocking door-to-door. The jury was told Mr xxxxxx then filled in the forms to suggest the voter would be on holiday and unable to vote, when in fact they were still at home. The pair submitted more than 160 proxy votes to the town hall, the court heard.

BY-ELECTIONS FOLLOW VOTE RIGGING (27.07.2005)

Voting has been under way in by-elections to choose successors to six Birmingham Labour Councillors, banned after vote rigging last year. The representatives for Aston and Bordesley Green were forced to step down after the Electoral Commissioner found evidence of postal ballot abuse. One councillor was later cleared, on appeal, of corrupt practices. Commissioner Richard Mawrey QC upheld allegations of postal fraud relating to the ballot of 10 June last year. "The system is wide open to fraud and any would-be political fraudster knows that," Judge Mawrey said at the time. He said evidence of "massive, systematic and organised fraud" in the campaign had made a mockery of the election and ruled that up to 1,500 votes had been cast fraudulently in the city. He criticised the government's insistence that the current postal voting system was working

MINISTER CLEARED OF VOTE RIGGING (01.07.2003)

(Then) Trade Secretary xxxxxx has been cleared of vote rigging in May's local elections, Leicestershire Police have announced. Reports had suggested that xxxxxx, who is MP for Leicester West, visited voters' homes with two Labour candidates who persuaded voters to fill in and hand over postal ballots.

COUNCILLOR DENIES VOTE RIGGING (16.01.2004)

A city councillor has pleaded not guilty to a charge of vote rigging. Bristol City Councillor xxxxxx was charged with conspiracy to defraud the council's electoral returning officer in May 2003. The 39-year-old councillor for Lawrence Hill ward was remanded in custody.

POLICE LAUNCH VOTE RIGGING PROBE (26.04.2006)

UK Police are investigating alleged vote-rigging in seven London boroughs, ahead of the local elections on 4 May. Harrow, Kensington and Chelsea, Merton, Southwark, Hounslow, Tower Hamlets and Barnet are being looked at.

POLICE INVESTIGATE VOTE RIGGING CLAIMS (18.05.2003)

Police are investigating allegations of vote rigging during the recent local elections in Oldham. Greater Manchester Police said it was looking into claims that about 300 postal vote forms were sent to just four houses in the town.

COUNCILORS JAILED FOR VOTE RIGGING (06.12.2002)

Two former councillors have been jailed for attempted vote rigging in the May 2000 local elections. xxxxxx, former Labour Borough Councillor for Havant, Hampshire, was sentenced to four months for 15 counts of forgery relating to postal and proxy votes and two counts of perverting the course of justice.

FOUR HELD OVER UK VOTE RIGGING (19.09.2001)

Four men have been arrested following a year-long investigation into alleged vote rigging at local elections. Police arrested the men aged, 39, 40, 55 and 65, in the Havant area at 0700 BST on Wednesday. A Hampshire Police spokeswoman said 45 officers were involved in the arrests. They followed an inquiry by the fraud squad, codenamed Operation Shiraz, into the allegedly fraudulent use of proxy votes at the local council elections last year.

POLICE INVESTIGATE UK VOTE RIGGING (10.01.2002)

Police in Greater Manchester are investigating allegations of vote rigging ahead of local elections in May. It is alleged some households in Oldham appear to have an excessive number of voters for the size of the property. There are also claims that electors have been registered at vacant properties. Officers in Oldham have met a local councillor who has pointed out the irregularities in the electoral roll.

FRAUDSTERS STEAL CANDIDATES VOTE

A candidate in Thursday's UK local elections has had her own vote stolen.
xxxxxx, who is standing in Tower Hamlets, east London, called police after vote riggers had forged her details to obtain fraudulent postal votes. The Conservative councillor believes she is just one victim of a wider fraud in her area.

The list is endless Adimon, and I trust that this will be enough 'evidence' of our "totally fair" electoral system... I will try my best to answer your other questions as soon as possible.

Cheers,
Fremmenwarrior.

[fremmenwarrior]

Adimon,

I said: The past has proven that any potential new anti-government, anti-establishment political party, group, or movement (whose political manifesto / policies would directly oppose or conflict with the corrupt and twisted 'norms' set by the controlling elite), is immediately 'outed', discredited and then completely crushed (by the elite-controlled media). The party/group/movement makes headline news in the tabloids and is labelled as being terrorist, racist, religionist, communist, etc.

You asked: "Are any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past WORTH joining or supporting though?

Adimon, which 'movements' are you referring to here? Please name them.

By this, you admit that this has indeed occurred (and still does); and that this political bullying/control/manipulation (call it what you will), by the big three political parties, using the controlled media to 'expose' and summararily destroy ANY potential / new political party that opposes their corrupt agenda, goes on today in UK politics. And you still say that the UK electoral system is "totally fair"?

Only 30-40% of the voting electorate, votes in clearly rigged elections, to elect a political party into power, giving them a five year mandate to do exactly what they want to do, regardless of public opinion and without public referendum on important issues affecting the National Security, wealth, health and well-being of our nation... and you still say that the UK electoral system and thus our democratic system of government is "totally fair"?

It's clear that people are tired of 'old style' Conservative/New Labour party politics (reflected by the incredibly low turnout for the last elections... was it only 26% or thereabouts).

Ok, I'm sure that if there was a sound, viable alternative, based upon the TRUTH, then millions of people would vote for that political party offering the 'New Politics' mentioned by other posters in this thread. However, the elite-controlled 'big boys' will never allow this to happen; and as I said, ANY alternative to the three UK mainstream political parties, (i.e. which tells the people THE TRUTH about what is really going on in this country today), is dealt with in this despicable way by the media. Any new / potential truth movement / political party would never be allowed to get off the ground, or to snowball in popularity. Why? Simply because the new party would expose all their lies and the corruption and manipulation going at all levels of UK politics and government today; and most of all, it would go against 'their' agenda.

Thus, your initial statement that you are satisfied that the UK electoral system is "totally fair" is complete nonsense, and (as you state that you are the son of a politician), a rather 'blinkered' viewpoint considering the examples of corruption and vote rigging I've given you previously.

Mainsteam party politics here in the UK today is NO WAY a fair system of election (or government), and is little more than a fascist, dictatorial police-state system, disguised (by lies and constant media brain-washing) as some sort of 'all is happy-clappy and well' here is this democracy...

again, I say, it's a completely corrupt dictatorial system, with 'puppet politicans' carefully SELECTED by the elite, working FOR the elite, AGAINST the wishes, health and well-being of the people.

That is their agenda... that *is* British politics.

[fremmenwarrior]

Adimon,

I said: "NOTHING will ever change in this world until the sheeple fully realise this and are made aware of this fact."

You said: "When did you first start using the term 'sheeple' ? Is this not a negative term to apply to fellow humans?"

Oh come on, stop pretending to be so damn naive. You have been on this forum since September 2007, and posted nearly 2000 posts - long enough to know that people who are yet to 'wake up' and realise the truth about what is going on today, and the extent to which they are being controlled, brain-washed and manipulated, are commonly described by many people using this forum as 'sheeple', or 'sleepers', or 'the unawakened' etc. David Icke calls this "the baa baa mentality".

The term 'sheeple' isn't a negative or derogatory term about fellow humans in any way at all... it's just a commonly used, general descriptive term and well you know it - you are just being pedantic... yet again...

[lizzy]

Its unbelieveable, there are so many people on this forum that are just as conditioned as the average idiot on the street, they only difference is that they think that they are awake, ha ha ha.

You also have many people on this forum who actually promote the elite as misunderstood good guys and think the scumbags ideas are wonderful:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16930&page=15


i know, amazing is'nt it?
the only 'enlightment' that is uncensored here are those who are ascending, tripping to nirvana or playing with reppies. Anything factual is quite taboo .
The middle class twit is alive and well and adimon is quite literally off his rocker ( he actually believes Oswald killed Kennedy, LOL)

[adimon]

Anyone who who faith in the system has a severe perception problem.
adimon that means you.

I thank you for sharing your severely superior perception with me Lizzy. I don't know how people like me could manage without people such as yourself.

Again we come at this from completely different perspectives. I think the NHS is paid for people being ill. Much illness could be avoided, prevented and cured. Done properly this service could shrink by as much as 95%. Surplus to be taken up by private charity or community level social service.

It's far from perfect, but IMO it's actually pretty good. And it's the principal which I was praising Attlee for. I agree far more could be done on prevention. How did you arrive at your 95% figure.

State pension is a lifeline for some... in the present scenario. The family unit has been mercilessly attacked to create dependance on the state. That needs a reversal to achieve no state pension. Surplus to be taken up by private charity or community level social service.

I agree in principal. But as you say, currently it is a practical lifeline.

Property... tell me... if you live in house and garden for 50 years what difference has it made to the quality of the time you spent there by owning it? I'd say none. In a situation of mortgage, purchase and inflationary banking practise... its a different story. But that's a financial reason and the financial sector needs dismantling. This idea is linked to freedom to roam and free housing. (Plus debt forgiveness in the obviously needed transition period).

This is quite a utopian view, but what if you don't want to roam, you want to stay and raise a family in one place, and someone in some way tries to usurp that place from you? What do you suggest is the best way of resolving the dispute? Do you agree with the central tenets of anarchism in relation to these matters?

Protectorate - if we could get rid of these people running around playing James Bond and cease the meddling everywhere I believe much peace would be restored. Given the nature of our current predicament I want the individual to always have the right to bear arms, whilst any other entity can.

I totally disagree here. Not much to say beyond that, which would be very constructive to anyone opposite me in this debate, except to suggest reading some Realist texts - Mearsheimer, Waltz, Morgenthau, and see what you make of it.

"No, that's exactly why I have trust in it."
You were right. We are poles apart in many ways:D

LOL. Told ya :D


Note: I've deleted the names of people involved, but posted these UK News items to prove my point and provide the evidence you require

Please repost with citations. I will then respond. Thanks.

Adimon,

I said: The past has proven that any potential new anti-government, anti-establishment political party, group, or movement (whose political manifesto / policies would directly oppose or conflict with the corrupt and twisted 'norms' set by the controlling elite), is immediately 'outed', discredited and then completely crushed (by the elite-controlled media). The party/group/movement makes headline news in the tabloids and is labelled as being terrorist, racist, religionist, communist, etc.

You asked: "Are any of the movements that this has occurred to in the past WORTH joining or supporting though?

Before we go on, realise that this is a question I'm asking, and not a loaded one. I have already covered this point above with cruise4, but I'll expand in your next context.

Adimon, which 'movements' are you referring to here? Please name them.

By this, you admit that this has indeed occurred (and still does); and that this political bullying/control/manipulation (call it what you will), by the big three political parties, using the controlled media to 'expose' and summararily destroy ANY potential / new political party that opposes their corrupt agenda, goes on today in UK politics.


I'm not referring to any in particular. I was wondering whether others had specific examples in mind, so I asked.

Yes the three main political parties display disgusting tactics targeted on each other and the smaller parties and I wouldn't vote for any of them. I would certainly call it political bullying, which is a form of control, and can be highly manipulative.

It's probably worth reiterating at this point that I'm not satisfied at all with the state of party politics in the UK. I agree this one of the biggest faults of the present system. As I have pointed out numerous times only to be ignored, I have never said our political system is great. First past the post voting, the state of the second chamber, the modernity of the parliamentary system, improper checks and balances in the legislature and the judiciary, the FUCKING MONARCHY!!! - these are all issues which need to be addressed. But hear this- party politics is not the be-all and end-all first off. Secondly, all I have been saying in this debate and previous ones is that I'm more in favour of reform than revolution, that the mechanics of the electoral system are IMO essentialy fair, with few exceptions, and I have given reasons for these views. I am not trying to convince anybody and respect the right of those who disagree to hold differing views. Why those people never seem to be able to extend the same courtesy I don't understand - without resorting to insults re: perception, and oftentimes accusations of being a CIA shill and all that bullshit. Please don't make assumptions. I am happy to answer any questions which expand on my views.

And you still say that the UK electoral system is "totally fair"?

The electoral system is NOT the whole of the political system. I have MASSIVE issues with the political system. The electoral system I have very few issues with. I don't like first-past the post and feel it only exacerbates the two party system. And I would prefer to see UK as a republic with two elected chambers and an executive. But in terms of the mechanical fairness of the voting system, and the size of the legislature compared to the size of the state, I think we have a reasonable system.

Only 30-40% of the voting electorate votes

You are of course referring to local elections which the public pays lip service to. This is a tragedy - the clearest indictment of voter apathy, since who your councillor is can potentially have an equal impact on your life as who your MP is. One thing I don't have any answers on is how to reverse the downward slump and get people involved again. I wish Zappa was alive - I'm sure he'd have some good ideas.

In the general election the picture isn't quite as bad. 2001 was a real slump, and 2005 wasn't MUCH better, but I expect turnout to recover to at least 65% in the next election. If it remains the same or lower, I might start to worry.

in clearly rigged elections

Clearly there will always be imperfections in any system, and bad apples, and room for human error. I will respond to the cases you refer to if you repost them with citations, but let it suffice to say that I would prefer an imperfect but essentially fair voting system than no system at all, which some advocate.

If you're suggesting that a limited number of anomalies in a comparatively large system are evidence that the NWO maintain their grip by fixing ALL elections, and that there is no fairness in voting then I will have to disagree. I think the control is largely performed at corporate and lobby level these days.

to elect a political party into power, giving them a five year mandate to do exactly what they want to do

As I'm sure you're aware - there is a trade-off balance between the term of government and what happens in that term. With two wholly-elected chambers, proportionate parliamentary voting and an executive instead of the monarchy, I believe our democracy would improve, and be less autocratic.

and without public referendum on important issues affecting the National Security, wealth, health and well-being of our nation

What issues would you like to see a referendum on?

... and you still say that the UK electoral system and thus our democratic system of government is "totally fair"?

I think you know that you're trying to put words in my mouth on this one. I never said our democratic system of government is totally fair. We're a monarchy FFS! :D

It's clear that people are tired of 'old style' Conservative/New Labour party politics (reflected by the incredibly low turnout for the last elections... was it only 26% or thereabouts).

People are tired, but they fail to realise that they too can get involved, and that party politics is not the only lever. Consumer power is extremely underrated, but it would be off-topic to go into this here.

Ok, I'm sure that if there was a sound, viable alternative, based upon the TRUTH, then millions of people would vote for that political party offering the 'New Politics' mentioned by other posters in this thread. However, the elite-controlled 'big boys' will never allow this to happen; and as I said, ANY alternative to the three UK mainstream political parties, (i.e. which tells the people THE TRUTH about what is really going on in this country today), is dealt with in this despicable way by the media. Any new / potential truth movement / political party would never be allowed to get off the ground, or to snowball in popularity. Why? Simply because the new party would expose all their lies and the corruption and manipulation going at all levels of UK politics and government today; and most of all, it would go against 'their' agenda.

I totally disagree. If enough people managed to agree on some basic principles, got some charismatic leaders and approached the public with a message of "You've been programmed to vote Red or Blue - why not Turquoise (or some other colour! LOL :D)" they would have a fair chance. They would also have to find some capital to support the drive. They would have to realise that it might not work first time, but then neither did the Labour Party. Any such party that could agree on some basic truths which I also subscribed to, would have my full support, and I would spend a great deal of my free time dedicated to them.

If such a situation arose, what do you believe would be the weapons the other three parties would deploy against the new party? Do you believe that these weapons are such that there would be no chance of survival for the new party? When was the last time this was tried, by something other than a single-issue party? Or by a libertarian party?

you state that you are the son of a politician, a rather 'blinkered' viewpoint considering the examples of corruption and vote rigging I've given you previously.


Far from being blinkered, I've been able to experience life both inside and outside of the world of politics. It's been an interesting journey. I've been a member of a political party and left it horrified, after learning many truths. My father was not always a politician, funnily enough, so it's not like I grew up conditioned by it. I'd actually say I had quite an insightful viewpoint since I've met many of the people who are discussed in this forum first hand and have worked in many parts of the political world so am able to share my views based on real experiences. You can see me as blinkered if you like, but I'm not sure it will help you any. :)

again, I say, it's a completely corrupt dictatorial system, with 'puppet politicans' carefully SELECTED by the elite, working FOR the elite, AGAINST the wishes, health and well-being of the people.

May I take the liberty of asking what other countries you have travelled to? :)

Oh come on, stop pretending to be so damn naive. You have been on this forum since September 2007, and posted nearly 2000 posts - long enough to know that people who are yet to 'wake up' and realise the truth about what is going on today, and the extent to which they are being controlled, brain-washed and manipulated, are commonly described by many people using this forum as 'sheeple', or 'sleepers', or 'the unawakened' etc. David Icke calls this "the baa baa mentality".

The term 'sheeple' isn't a negative or derogatory term about fellow humans in any way at all... it's just a commonly used, general descriptive term and well you know it - you are just being pedantic... yet again...

Sorry for having an opinion. I don't like the term and see no reason to create a noun for the members of the public who have no real knowledge of these matters. I think the term serves only as an ego boost for the truthers. In the 1960s the communists would refer to the 'sheeple' as bourgeois - but were they really?

i know, amazing is'nt it?
the only 'enlightment' that is uncensored here are those who are ascending, tripping to nirvana or playing with reppies. Anything factual is quite taboo .
The middle class twit is alive and well and adimon is quite literally off his rocker ( he actually believes Oswald killed Kennedy, LOL)

Why am I off my rocker lizzy? :D

Can you show me why I'm so wrong about LHO?

What problem have you got with the middle class?

Why are you so bitter? :)

[cruise4]

"How did you arrive at your 95% figure."

Plucked it out of thin air based on how much I know about the pharma-racket and the appalling practises that go on within it.

"but what if you don't want to roam, you want to stay and raise a family in one place, and someone in some way tries to usurp that place from you? What do you suggest is the best way of resolving the dispute? Do you agree with the central tenets of anarchism in relation to these matters?"

You have the right to your property for ever if you so wish so the dispute doesn't arise.

[fremmenwarrior]

Adimon,

I said: "No, not at this time, but going underground and forming a resistance / paramilitary organisation / international? network may be the only option left for those of us who refuse to surrender to the elite, if 'they' continue to erode basic freedoms and are closing everything down, step by step, and tightening their grip on people."

You said: "If you do this, you will be killed. I can almost guarantee it."

What complete nonsense! How can you possibly 'know' and state, with such arrogance and confidence, that I, or indeed anyone else "will be killed" if large numbers of people formed a well organised, well funded paramilitary resistance movement here in the UK? How can YOU "guarantee" that we would be killed? That sounds more like a threat to me, or at least an attempt to scare people off from going down this route. If the elite keep pushing and eroding peoples freedoms, then I think that many people WILL ultimately feel there is no other option left open to them. If the government squeezes people hard enough, then they will eventually snap and bite back fiercly!

I don't have the time to go into great detail on this one, so let's take the example of the Provisional Irish Republic Army (the IRA) and their armed struggle against the United Kingdom for Irish Independence.

In the 1970's, the paramilitary organisation known as the IRA, waged a very successful campaign of terror and military resistance against the UK government and they ran circles around the British Army. They even completed a successful terror / bombing campaign here on the British Mainland.

Hardly any IRA soldiers were identified, few were killed in action or even captured by the Police or the British Army. Yes, I seem to remember reading somewhere that a British Army document was released in 2007 stating that they had completely 'failed to defeat' the IRA by force of arms;' And the professional military assessment of the IRA made by British Army officials was that 'the IRA was a dedicated, highly skilled and resilient paramilitary organisation.'

[adimon]

What complete nonsense! How can you possibly 'know' and state, with such arrogance and confidence, that I, or indeed anyone else "will be killed" if large numbers of people formed a well organised, well funded paramilitary resistance movement here in the UK? How can YOU "guarantee" that we would be killed? That sounds more like a threat to me, or at least an attempt to scare people off from going down this route. If the elite keep pushing and eroding peoples freedoms, then I think that many people WILL ultimately feel there is no other option left open to them. If the government squeezes people hard enough, then they will eventually snap and bite back fiercly!

I don't have the time to go into great detail on this one, so let's take the example of the Provisional Irish Republic Army (the IRA) and their armed struggle against the United Kingdom for Irish Independence.

In the 1970's, the paramilitary organisation known as the IRA, waged a very successful campaign of terror and military resistance against the UK government and they ran circles around the British Army. They even completed a successful terror / bombing campaign here on the British Mainland.

Hardly any IRA soldiers were identified, few were killed in action or even captured by the Police or the British Army. Yes, I seem to remember reading somewhere that a British Army document was released in 2007 stating that they had completely 'failed to defeat' the IRA by force of arms;' And the professional military assessment of the IRA made by British Army officials was that 'the IRA was a dedicated, highly skilled and resilient paramilitary organisation.'

It's because PIRA were NOT large numbers that they were able to elude defeat. As time went on, and intelligence gathering evolved, the BA were able to gain the edge which they thankfully still hold. Plus, the situation has improved politically as well.

Do what you like. I'm not threatening you or trying to scare you off. I'm telling it like it is. NATO is an unstoppable economic and military machine. You will not defeat it by force. You will have to be cleverer than that. :)

If you think my view is an isolated one - why not create a poll and see what the majority of forum members think - i.e. whether such a paramilitary organisation would be effective ?

[cruise4]

Bit off topic and you'll have to do your own research, but the IRA and the associated struggle could well have been a setup too. Much masonic involvement and infiltration.

[cruise4]

Sheeple - short and descriptive...

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/3127/mad20tea20party700hy7.jpg

[danucrom]

Bit off topic and you'll have to do your own research, but the IRA and the associated struggle could well have been a setup too. Much masonic involvement and infiltration.

To a certain extent it was, if you trace back the IRA to its foundation you will see that its roots are in the Irish Volunteers, an organisation that was set up by members of the Ancient Order of Hibernians (a semi-masonic group similar to the Orange Order) and Irish Republican Brotherhood (who had close ties with the Jesuits). The IRA didn't evolve from the grass roots as some will lead you to believe, it had very suspicious beginnings. The PIRA however split from the main body of the official IRA in 1969 and to begin with were not under any external control, this changed over time of course. It's a very complicated subject that probably deserves a thread of its own.

[fremmenwarrior]

Hi Danucrom,

Yes indeed, the subject of the IRA would certainly warrant a separate thread for detailed discussion, but thanks for your input. I only used the IRA as an example of a paramilitary organisation, to address Adimons rather shocking statement that if people formed any sort of anti-elite, anti-NATO paramilitary movement to fight the PTB, he said, "...you will be killed... I can guarantee it."

Hi Cruise4,

Really like the picture!!!

Hi Adimon,

No, I am not planning to go down the paramilitary route personally; well, not yet anyway. I just wanted to know if there were any other people here on this forum who believe that trying to bring about the desired changes and challenging / defeating elite control via the established political route is still an option, or do they believe that the political route is now closed off - that's all.

Hmm... Polls are ok, I suppose, but it's much better to see what people think about this topic in their written responses.

Cheers,
Fremmenwarrior.

P.S. Adimon, my last post wasn't a dig at you - in fact it was a compliment. I admire your frankness and your honesty. You are obviously a very intelligent individual with a whole lot of experience and first hand knowledge of politics. Although we beg to differ on quite a few things on this topic, I must say that it is rather refreshing (albeit a little intimidating!), to talk to someone who has obviously done their homework and knows what they are talking about in this particular field, so thanks for that.

[mari]

The PTB are ritually legalistic. They need public consent to push their agenda through, they get this by manipulating the public to the point where they demand their own enslavement. You see, I think people like you and me have two major enemies in this world 1, the PTB and 2, the vast majority who give the PTB their power by playing their contrived game.. Therefore the conclusion I came to was, to beat the system we should drop out of the system and refuse to play in the game any longer, If enough people dropped out of their control grid, stopped useing their fake money and started to govern themselves then the system will start to crumble. This is probably wishful thinking as I know most people will go along with the bastards and play their game right up until the very end.

You're right. Non-cooperation was always going to be the way out of this mess. I've started by turning off my TV, refusing to pay its Licence, joining the NO2ID gang (UK) publicly rubbishing the govt every chance I get. Just for starters!
Refuse to cooperate & you have them by the balls.............

[cruise4]

"You're right. Non-cooperation was always going to be the way out of this mess. I've started by turning off my TV, refusing to pay its Licence, joining the NO2ID gang (UK) publicly rubbishing the govt every chance I get. Just for starters!
Refuse to cooperate & you have them by the balls............."

I love these kinds of posts!

[abrilliantone]

(Decided to start a new thread from the Ron Paul topic).

Many people are sick to the back teeth of this corrupt, wicked system of manipulation and control. However, many of those who constantly moan and groan about the system and society in general today, just go on blindly voting in these 'elite-rigged' political elections, putting their hopes in the next 'bright-star' politician who promises the nation "great and radical changes" - but nothing ever changes for the better; indeed things just go on getting steadily worse; and yet still they go on, election after election, voting for these corrupt political parties? It absolutely beggars belief!

How long is it going to be before so-called 'awakened people' finally realise (and admit to themselves), that attempting to use the POLITICAL ROUTE to effect the desired changes we all want to see, is a FUTILE exercise. The political route is completely CLOSED OFF to us! Therefore, I firmly believe that those desired changes WILL NOT EVER be achieved by awakened people hoping to sway the sleepers opinion and get their support, by attempting to go down the political route.

It simply will not work!

because the controlling elite already has the political route all nicely stitched up and sealed tight against any opponents of their wicked agenda.

The past has proven that any potential new anti-government, anti-establishment political party, group, or movement (whose political manifesto / policies would directly oppose or conflict with the corrupt and twisted 'norms' set by the controlling elite), is immediately 'outed', discredited and then completely crushed (by the elite-controlled media). The party/group/movement makes headline news in the tabloids and is labelled as being terrorist, racist, religionist, communist, etc. and the sheeple believe all this shit.

So, it makes no difference which US President, which UK Prime Minister, or which political party one votes for; because these programmed robots are SELECTED by the Illuminati, FOR the Illuminati; working AGAINST the people. Politicians are NOT, and NEVER WERE, elected 'by the people', 'for the people'. It's all lies.

This is why it annoys me so much when you hear sanctimonious people proudly say, "Oh, yes, I've voted for [whichever party] for over 30 years now..." and then in the next breath you hear them moaning about street crime, house prices, the health service, and income taxes. Grr!! Mindless, brain-washed, whimpering sheep! Baa... Baa... all form an orderly line to be slaughtered in the Illuminati abatoir... next...

Democrat, Republican, Left, Right, Conservative, New Labour, Liberals etc., they are ALL the same. It's all just a con trick to make people think that they have a choice - yes, different faces, different coloured ties; but 'the agenda' is exactly the same, just differently packaged so as to 'dupe the sleepers' into thinking they have a voice, a choice, and some sort of power or control over their own destiny simply because they have voted for a particular politician.

It's complete LIES and BULLSHIT and NOTHING will ever change in this world until the sheeple fully realise this and are made aware of this fact.

So, what makes anyone here believe that Mr. Ron Paul, or indeed any other fracking politician, will somehow be 'different' or make positive changes for the good of the people, when one considers the sub-human gaggle of corrupt, lying, 'Illuminati agenda-pushing' puppet politicians that we've seen SELECTED and carefully PLACED into power by the controlling elite, in the USA, here in the UK, and in many other Countries, since the end of WW2?

No, Ron Paul will not be any different to the rest of those despotic devils in suits!! ALL politicians are completely rotten to the core - why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE! It goes with the territory and there are NO exceptions to this rule in 'their' political world - there can't be!

Again, history shows us that the controlling elite will not tolerate anyone who 'goes against the grain', or who makes a (political) stand for truth and justice, or who questions 'their' evil agenda. For those few potential leaders who showed any ounce of morality, decency, honesty and integrity, who would govern with the best interests of country and people at heart, who dared to go against the Illuminati agenda, then the elite either tried to buy them off first - then, if they still refused to be bought into line, the elite SILENCED and ERASED their asses!

Welcome to the wonderful world of elite-controlled world politics!
That IS world politics in a nutshell!

So, better to place 'their' own people in as Presidents and Prime Ministers etc., and save 'them' the trouble of all this hassle and having to risk another JFK-like scenario...

Here in the UK, over the years, we have seen many of these self-confessed 'Political Saviours' come and go... all promising to do their very best for the nation in regards to national security, wealth, taxes, employment, health, education, tackling crime, etc etc; and ALL have left behind them a dark wake of suffering, despair, and chaos - a terrible legacy of lies, corruption, embezzlement, drug and sex scandals, fraud, bloodshed and yes, even mass murder, all as a direct result of THEIR reckless and corrupt political policies, both at home and abroad.

When people finally realise (and admit to themselves), that the political route is now completely closed off, and that public protest by waving a few anti-government banners, giving out leaflets and protesting in the street, is a pointless exercise too... only then will they take the final option being left open to people who point blank refuse to accept this system - and that of course, is to go underground and form covert cells of armed resistance / paramilitary groups.

What????? People may gasp, but is there any other choice or way that we can beat this thing? People will not, and do not, like talking in this way - but the bottom line is that is exactly what it is going to take! This is the growing reality of the whole situation - the elite is forcing the hand of all those of us who reject their wicked system of control and rule.

Perhaps, towards the end, things will get so bad that they will reason: 'Well, if the elite are intent on destroying me and my family, and enslaving my kids, then why not go out fighting for freedom, standing proudly on ones feet, rather than grovelling on one's knees waiting for an Illuminati financed execution bullet to hit? Some will strongly disagree here no doubt, but this isn't me war-mongering, I'm just being truthful, because it is the elite that is forcing our hand and pushing awakened people into that extreme situation. It will take extreme measures to achieve extreme results and I think this will happen eventually in the not so distant future.

There is no other option left open to awakened people,

or is there?



*STANDS UP AND APPLAUSE* while wiping lonely tear from his face. Thank You for starting this thread fremmenwarrior :) It's amazing how so many people claim to be awaken but yet still get caught up in the system. It doesn't matter who they so-call vote for Obama, Hillary, Huckabee, McCain or Ron Paul. Whoever "they" place inside the whitehouse. Bets believe he or she will be helping to usher in The New World Order. What a coincidence that this president term will end in the year 2012. :eek:

[somewarez]

442...


I'll explain when it happens

there is a 1 with a 442

forgive my irrelevance, maybe in 442 more it will become, perhaps less.

LOL I almost lost count.....

I note 1829

I shall also note the colours grey and white.

I wish to be wrong but this is purely for me an experiment :)
And for you its just an irrelevance. Which I Appologise for.

(this is purley my backup and nothing to do with anything)

[fremmenwarrior]

Mari,

You said: "You're right. Non-cooperation was always going to be the way out of this mess. I've started by turning off my TV, refusing to pay its Licence, joining the NO2ID gang (UK) publicly rubbishing the govt every chance I get. Just for starters! Refuse to cooperate & you have them by the balls............."

I agree with what you are saying, and please excuse the tacky jingle, but yes, 'every little helps'.

It is frightening when you think about just how controlled by 'fear of what will happen to us' that people really are!

It's clear that if you put one step out of line here in this country (UK) you are immediately penalised and/or punished for going astray from their wicked corrupt system. It's either play 'their' game, or become an outcast from the corrupt, crime-ridden, stinking society which 'they' have 'engineered' so as to dumb down the people and keep the taxes coming in.

For instance, if you overdraw your bank account, you get charged bank charges and interest and get warning letters; if you don't pay your utility bills, they will cut off your water, electricity, gas, telephone etc; if you don't pay your TV license, you will get threatening letters, then an 'enforcement officer' will come to your house, then you will be fined or even imprisoned - I've tried that one... etc., etc.

Control by FEAR operates at all levels in 'their' rotten world. Recently I got a very rude letter from my local council threatening me with fines and even imprisonment!! simply because (in their opinion) I wasn't recycling my cans, newspapers and glass jars frequently enough?

I wrote back (truthfully) and explained to the council that I don't buy newspapers and I cannot any eat canned food or food in glass jars because of severe allergies to certain food additives and preservatives, therefore very little cans, bottles, tins and newspapers will ever be put into my recycling bin. A few weeks later I saw the refuse collector (binmen) rifling through my black bin bags, he then ticked a chart and put the bags onto the cart... absolutely unbelievable!

[mari]

Mari,

You said: "You're right. Non-cooperation was always going to be the way out of this mess. I've started by turning off my TV, refusing to pay its Licence, joining the NO2ID gang (UK) publicly rubbishing the govt every chance I get. Just for starters! Refuse to cooperate & you have them by the balls............."

I agree with what you are saying, and please excuse the tacky jingle, but yes, 'every little helps'.

It is frightening when you think about just how controlled by 'fear of what will happen to us' that people really are!

It's clear that if you put one step out of line here in this country (UK) you are immediately penalised and/or punished for going astray from their wicked corrupt system. It's either play 'their' game, or become an outcast from the corrupt, crime-ridden, stinking society which 'they' have 'engineered' so as to dumb down the people and keep the taxes coming in.

For instance, if you overdraw your bank account, you get charged bank charges and interest and get warning letters; if you don't pay your utility bills, they will cut off your water, electricity, gas, telephone etc; if you don't pay your TV license, you will get threatening letters, then an 'enforcement officer' will come to your house, then you will be fined or even imprisoned - I've tried that one... etc., etc.

Control by FEAR operates at all levels in 'their' rotten world. Recently I got a very rude letter from my local council threatening me with fines and even imprisonment!! simply because (in their opinion) I wasn't recycling my cans, newspapers and glass jars frequently enough?

I wrote back (truthfully) and explained to the council that I don't buy newspapers and I cannot any eat canned food or food in glass jars because of severe allergies to certain food additives and preservatives, therefore very little cans, bottles, tins and newspapers will ever be put into my recycling bin. A few weeks later I saw the refuse collector (binmen) rifling through my black bin bags, he then ticked a chart and put the bags onto the cart... absolutely unbelievable!


Fremmenwarrior, take a look at this -

http://www.bbctvlicence.com/
an eye-opener!
and this -
http://www.marmalade.net/lime/

[adimon]

I am not planning to go down the paramilitary route personally; well, not yet anyway. I just wanted to know if there were any other people here on this forum who believe that trying to bring about the desired changes and challenging / defeating elite control via the established political route is still an option, or do they believe that the political route is now closed off - that's all.

I understand. I would strongly advise you to direct you energies to other methods, for aforementioned reasons. If you don't think the political route is still an option, then maybe non-violent, direct action is somethingyou should look into.

Hmm... Polls are ok, I suppose, but it's much better to see what people think about this topic in their written responses.

Agreed.

P.S. Adimon, my last post wasn't a dig at you - in fact it was a compliment. I admire your frankness and your honesty. You are obviously a very intelligent individual with a whole lot of experience and first hand knowledge of politics. Although we beg to differ on quite a few things on this topic, I must say that it is rather refreshing (albeit a little intimidating!), to talk to someone who has obviously done their homework and knows what they are talking about in this particular field, so thanks for that.

Thanks for the kind words. You shouldn't feel intimidated though. :)

Recently I got a very rude letter from my local council threatening me with fines and even imprisonment!! simply because (in their opinion) I wasn't recycling my cans, newspapers and glass jars frequently enough?

I wrote back (truthfully) and explained to the council that I don't buy newspapers and I cannot any eat canned food or food in glass jars because of severe allergies to certain food additives and preservatives, therefore very little cans, bottles, tins and newspapers will ever be put into my recycling bin. A few weeks later I saw the refuse collector (binmen) rifling through my black bin bags, he then ticked a chart and put the bags onto the cart... absolutely unbelievable!

Very interesting. Woud you mind telling me which Local Authority this is? I would like to look into this.

[fremmenwarrior]

Mari,

hey thanks so much for that link about TVL / BBC

Yes indeed, what an-eye-opener!

Just hope loads of other people read it and do the necessary lol.

[fremmenwarrior]

Adimon,

I know from your responses that you are a stickler for details - but looking back over this thread and many of your other posts in other sections, it has to be said that in rather too many of your subtle questions, it's apparent that you do seem to be 'fishing for information' about people who write here on this forum? and more especially those you don't agree with? Maybe I am being paranoid but it does all seem a bit suspicious to me?

When I was talking about receiving threatening letters from my local council about recycling, You asked: "Would you mind telling me which Local Authority this is? I would like to look into this."

Now that would be telling...

[masonfree party]

everyone should stop work for a week...stop paying mortgages,loans,utility bills...this is the best way to beat the elite..hit them in the pocket and enjoy a week off from the rat run

[mightiswrong]

So they can disconnect your power and reposess your house based on the contracts you have freely agreed to.

[masonfree party]

So they can disconnect your power and reposess your house based on the contracts you have freely agreed to.


yes but if alot of people did it then the system would soon implode...i've paid for my house twice over and so its mine in theory..the banks are creating money out of thin air and charging me double the mortgage...its a racket that good people should play no part in anymore

[mari]

yes but if alot of people did it then the system would soon implode...i've paid for my house twice over and so its mine in theory..the banks are creating money out of thin air and charging me double the mortgage...its a racket that good people should play no part in anymore

You have it there. The key is doing this stuff en masse. There's nothing they could do about it, the change to our society would be tremendous!
The disease that infects most of us at the mo, is that we are powerless to do anything, except fume with inner rage, -something which the elite have no doubt fostered & encouraged at every turn.

[adimon]

Adimon,

I know from your responses that you are a stickler for details - but looking back over this thread and many of your other posts in other sections, it has to be said that in rather too many of your subtle questions, it's apparent that you do seem to be 'fishing for information' about people who write here on this forum? and more especially those you don't agree with? Maybe I am being paranoid but it does all seem a bit suspicious to me?

When I was talking about receiving threatening letters from my local council about recycling, You asked: "Would you mind telling me which Local Authority this is? I would like to look into this."

Now that would be telling...

Up to you fremmenwarrior. You're not the first person to mistake my curiousity for malevolence. If you wanna believe I'm profiling people that's your problem. There isn't much I can say besides asking you to look at the details of my own life I've shared with the forum. If you wanna talk about an issue you can PM me or give me a phonecall, as I would invite anyone to do who has a problem with me. Because it's their problem, and unless they let them me help them with that problem, there's not much I can do.

If you don't want me to get involved I understand but the story about the binman piqued my curiousity and I genuinely would like to look into it. I have experience with each level of control involved - ministry, council, contractor.

I don't want to fall out about this, so I would ask that you PM me, but as I hope you can understand I'm a bit sick of getting tarred with the CIA brush by every newcomer to my relatively-conservative views. I assure you I am a poster here for genuine reasons.

Did you read the thread where I got accused by a mob of people of being a profiler the last time, a few weeks before Xmas? I can't remember offhand which thread it might have been.

Here's hoping you realise the error of your ways. With all politeness and respect I can muster. Speak soon. :)