hare krishna

[paganus]

i am becoming interested in the hare krishna movement.do anyone have any info on them?

[t nib]

All I know is they shave their heads, wear blaze orange and have a passion for tambourines. Silly stereotypes aside, you can't go wrong with wikipedia! You might find some local information on there or with google, I don't know if they have temples etc that you can visit but I'm sure you can find local followers somehow. :)

[paganus]

really i was after some 'insider' knowledge.

[optimus pigpot]

i am becoming interested in the hare krishna movement.do anyone have any info on them?

Pack of shit, bullshit........ Stop it....... No need to devote. BE YOU11111111111

ontheroad Need help, Wankbots everywhere.........

[blue]

i am becoming interested in the hare krishna movement.do anyone have any info on them?

hare krishna movement : a fad.

[octopusrex]

Go to the source: www.vrinda.org

[kasalt]

really i was after some 'insider' knowledge.

You have to be careful with any religious leader or organization because frauds abound. Here is the website of an ISKCON leader whom I believe to be authentic:

http://www.sda-archives.com/

I have been a subscriber to his daily e-mails for a couple of years now, and I've found him to be very insightful. He answers questions from readers, so you can email him any questions you may have.

I would suggest using the search feature to search this forum for threads on the subject. I've started some myself that you may find interesting.

[octopusrex]

The Iskon website has fine Bhagavad Gita online. Or better yet, get a copy from your local airport devotees and read the thing.

But read it and then also read the Bible, the Koran and a biography of Buddha.

Regarding spiritual matters, the choice is so important, it has to be handled carefully.

STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM THE LEFT HAND. THEIR DAYS ARE COUNTED. The straight dope on them is out.

Choose the white pillar.

(of course, they will re-appear through out time kind of like the Daleks and the Borg).

And yes, stay vigilant. There's many false prophets these here days.

[pilgrim]

Prabhupada = Good / ISKCON = Bad ("illuminati" controlled)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PEzuwMSdY&feature=PlayList&p=0C4804BB24004DC4&index=8

The Illuminati are trying to destroy Prabhupada and his transcendental teachings because he is their greatest enemy and the only real threat to their Demoniac New World Order.

Prabhupada has been sent by Krishna [God] to this world to educate all people in the science of self and God realization. He has come to fulfil the desire and complete the work of all the previous representatives, servants, and incarnations of God such as Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha etc.

Prabhupada's amazing miracle of translating the essence of the ancient Vedas to the people of the world and thus revealing the clear path to true spiritual realization, free from all religious dogma will bring about the Spiritual World Order of peace, enlightenment and equality for all on the this planet for 10,000 years!

More Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0C4804BB24004DC4

[optimus pigpot]

The Iskon website has fine Bhagavad Gita online. Or better yet, get a copy from your local airport devotees and read the thing.

But read it and then also read the Bible, the Koran and a biography of Buddha.

Regarding spiritual matters, the choice is so important, it has to be handled carefully.

STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM THE LEFT HAND. THEIR DAYS ARE COUNTED. The straight dope on them is out.

Choose the white pillar.

(of course, they will re-appear through out time kind of like the Daleks and the Borg).

And yes, stay vigilant. There's many false prophets these here days.

Just don't bother... Or you could worship me... Optimus pigpot... Leader of the Pigpotabots.........

[eternal_spirit]

It's not cool, chanting Hare Krishna at 4 am every morning for two hours or so, think about it? What use is that too man or beast> NONE!

I nearly joined them once, looks all nice and pretty living on a farm in a commune. It's not what it appears to be same as satanists they use fluffy language and lies to draw you in then they brainwash you and manipulate you. Just a warning.

Read the books and you'll find it originates from the Hindu religion, this is where Darwin's theory of evolution came from survival of the fittest bullshit ( The ruling elite believe all this nonsense to justify their theory that they're the top of the evolutionary process ) and all that crap about Karma, the one's at the top who have everything deserve what they have and those who struggle to survive while those at the top refuse to give what they have to help those of a lower caste ( class ) is sicker than sick.

Also, George Harrsion who promoted Krishna garbage, didn't you know the Beatles where a product of the Tavistock Institute? And where used to promote the 60's drug culture all this and the New Age religions including Krishna consciousness etc well MI6 and the Intelligence agencies where behind it all and sent out their agents including Crowley, the Maharishi, Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley and all your Guru's funded and promoted by the Ruling Elite's culture creators.

Yeah it sucked when I found out the truth also.

[pierre_jean]

Devotion = Slavery

[pilgrim]

Read the books and you'll find it originates from the Hindu religion, this is where Darwin's theory of evolution came from survival of the fittest bullshit ( The ruling elite believe all this nonsense to justify their theory that they're the top of the evolutionary process ) and all that crap about Karma, the one's at the top who have everything deserve what they have and those who struggle to survive while those at the top refuse to give what they have to help those of a lower caste ( class ) is sicker than sick.


I've read all of Srila Prabhupada's 80+ books plus many other related books (Puranas, Upanishads, etc) over the last 20 years.

"Hindu" is a name given by Mogul invaders to the people living south of the Indus river. It is a misnomer.
"Hinduism", like all other major religions is now controlled by the "Illuminati"

Krishna consciousness is from the (pre-"hindu") Vedas. (transcendental knowledge).

The soul (conscious, eternal person) evolves/re-incarnates, according to his actvities through the different species of life to a human body which is an opportunity for self-realisation.

Original "caste-system" is based on a person's qualities & aptitude, not by their birthright. It has been perverted.

I agree that ISKCON (the Hare Krishna movment) has become a cult. I spent 2 years as an "insider", but there is nothing wrong with the original (ISKCON are changing the books) teachings of Srila Prabhupada, which are essential to understand & overcome the "Illuminati".

[lizzy]

It's not cool, chanting Hare Krishna at 4 am every morning for two hours or so, think about it? What use is that too man or beast> NONE!

I nearly joined them once, looks all nice and pretty living on a farm in a commune. It's not what it appears to be same as satanists they use fluffy language and lies to draw you in then they brainwash you and manipulate you. Just a warning.

Read the books and you'll find it originates from the Hindu religion, this is where Darwin's theory of evolution came from survival of the fittest bullshit ( The ruling elite believe all this nonsense to justify their theory that they're the top of the evolutionary process ) and all that crap about Karma, the one's at the top who have everything deserve what they have and those who struggle to survive while those at the top refuse to give what they have to help those of a lower caste ( class ) is sicker than sick.

Also, George Harrsion who promoted Krishna garbage, didn't you know the Beatles where a product of the Tavistock Institute? And where used to promote the 60's drug culture all this and the New Age religions including Krishna consciousness etc well MI6 and the Intelligence agencies where behind it all and sent out their agents including Crowley, the Maharishi, Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley and all your Guru's funded and promoted by the Ruling Elite's culture creators.

Yeah it sucked when I found out the truth also.

well said eternal,

The Truth really is stranger than fiction is'nt it?

[kasalt]

Here's an old thread I started on the subject:

The Illuminati infiltrated ISKCON
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8612

[drael]

While i dont have any insider info i thought id share my veiws. The bigavagita (sp?) is a good holy book. The teachnings of krishna, and the mythology in the book are informative.

The religion however is a little different. They are centred around the indian notion of gurus, which can make a cult of personality. They also convert others! bad religion. They are quite overzelous in this, making them quite cult like at times.

IMO

[pilgrim]

While i dont have any insider info i thought id share my veiws. The bigavagita (sp?) is a good holy book. The teachnings of krishna, and the mythology in the book are informative.

The religion however is a little different. They are centred around the indian notion of gurus, which can make a cult of personality. They also convert others! bad religion. They are quite overzelous in this, making them quite cult like at times.

IMO

Srila Prabhupada translated "Bhagavad-gita As It Is".
You should read the re-printed 1972 version.
ISKCON are not following his teachings.
They have changed the books since 1978.
They poisoned Prabhupada, his movement & his books.
ISCKON have 80 "gurus", all bogus & criminal.
Prabhupada is the only real Guru of the Hare Krishna movement.

Here is audio & transcripts of evidence of poisoning:
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/paul/prabhupada_poisoned.htm

So there are these snake-like persons. They are envious about our movement, and they are opposing. That is the nature. Prahlada Maharaja also was opposed by his father, what to speak of others THESE THINGS WILL HAPPEN... HE WAS ALSO SERVED WITH POISON. (Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture Mayapur 28/02/77)

This is our position. Gradually they will show Hare Krsna movement. In India also, although India’s... They will want to crush down this movement. So this will be up to Him. Krsna or Krsna’s movement, the same thing. And Krsna was attempted to be killed by Kamsa class of men and his company, the demons. SO IT WILL BE THERE; IT IS ALREADY THERE. Don’t be disappointed, because that is the meaning that it is successful. Krsna’s favor is there, because Krsna and Krsna’s movement is not different, identical. So as Krsna was attempted to be killed, many, many years before He appeared... At eighth child, if the mother produces child yearly, still ten years, eight years before His birth, the mother was to be attempted to be killed. SO THERE MAY BE ATTEMPT LIKE THAT. And Lord Jesus Christ was killed. SO THEY MAY KILL ME ALSO. (Conversation Honolulu 3/5/76)

THAT IS MY ONLY REQUEST, THAT AT THE LAST STAGE DON’T TORTURE ME AND PUT ME TO DEATH.
(Room Conversation Vrindavan 3/11/77)

[pilgrim]

"The Science of Self-Realization"
Online book by Srila Prabhupada:
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_expose/what_kc/what_kc.htm

Maybe some people who have posted on this thread could at least read this basic book before making any more un-informed comments on a subject they obviously know little about.

[eternal_spirit]

How about the book Easy Journey to other Planets?

[rossus]

I read some of Srila Prabhupada's stuff.

He has many things to say, that could be interesting.
But because he offers no proof that it's the truth, i find it not interesting.

If i want to believe in a story that can not be verified,
I could just as well become a Christian or become a follower of a new-age religion such as "the pleiadians".

[pilgrim]

I read some of Srila Prabhupada's stuff.

He has many things to say, that could be interesting.
But because he offers no proof that it's the truth, i find it not interesting.

If i want to believe in a story that can not be verified,
I could just as well become a Christian or become a follower of a new-age religion such as "the pleiadians".

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
You have to study & apply the teachings to see if they work or not.
What books have you read?
What would be the "proof" you are looking for?
Are you a fit candidate for receiving the "truth".

[pilgrim]

How about the book Easy Journey to other Planets?

What about it?
Have you read it?

[rossus]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
You have to study & apply the teachings to see if they work or not.
What books have you read?
What would be the "proof" you are looking for?
Are you a fit candidate for receiving the "truth".
i've read the short book "Easy journey to other planets" a couple of years ago;
and checked into some other Hare Krishna stuff as well.

i'd like to see proof that all the things a Hare Krishna person believes is true.
proof about the Hare Krishna explanation about god, reincarnation, the divine plan, etc.

not proof as in "feeling more love and happiness";
because i already feel that without believing in Hare Krishna, or other religious belief.

i know that the hare krishna lifestyle can bring such feelings,
as you live purer... you will feel more happy.



I just ran into some mormons, and they believe their religion is the only true religion.
And they believe, that god gives them proof for that.

But the proof they get is just feel more happy and more loved...
the same thing i experience; but without the belief.



I don't know,
what do you think makes one a fit candidate for receiving truth?

[pilgrim]

But what would you accept as proof?

[rossus]

But what would you accept as proof?
anything, as long as it's good proof.

but i suppose there is no "black and white" proof is there?
i suspect there's just -the story of the everything- according to hare krishna;
and you either blindly believe it or you don't.

feel free to show me where i'm wrong.

[pilgrim]

anything, as long as it's good proof.

but i suppose there is no "black and white" proof is there?
i suspect there's just -the story of the everything- according to hare krishna;
and you either blindly believe it or you don't.

feel free to show me where i'm wrong.

Read all of Prabhupada's 'Bhagavad-gita As It Is' & chant the Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra at least 10 minutes a day for a few weeks (avoiding meat, sex, alcohol & other drugs as much as possible), then we can talk about "proof" & "blind belief".

Online 'Bhagavad-Gita':

http://www.asitis.com/

Maha-Mantra:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

[rossus]

let's say i would do the experiment,
what would be the result of it if I do it right?

shall i see a vision of god?
shall i hear god talk to me with words?

tell me please;

in which form does the proof that the hare krishna-views of the world
are the right views of the world manifest itself,

after chanting the hare krishna mantra for a few weeks?

:)

[pilgrim]

let's say i would do the experiment,
what would be the result of it if I do it right?

shall i see visions of god?
shall i hear god talk to me with words?

tell me please;

in which form does the proof that the hare krishna-view of the world
is the right view of the world manifest itself,
after chanting the hare krishna mantra for a few weeks?

thanks ;)

You will only know the result when you do the experiment. Then it will be up to you to decide if you have received your "proof" or not!
If i told you what would happen, why should you blindly believe me?

[rossus]

You will only know the result when you do the experiment. Then it will be up to you to decide if you have received your "proof" or not!
If i told you what would happen, why should you blindly believe me?
I wouldn't blindly believe you,
but if I'd try an experiment daily for weeks on end...

then I don't think it's too much asked to at least give me some details about
what is supposed to happen... and in what form the "proof" manifests itself.

i'm sure you can answer the question, so please do. :)

[pilgrim]

I wouldn't blindly believe you,
but if I'd try an experiment daily for weeks on end...

then I don't think it's too much asked to at least give me some details about
what is supposed to happen... and in what form the "proof" manifests itself.

i'm sure you can answer the question, so please do. :)

The transcendental vibration established by the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is the sublime method for reviving our transcendental consciousness. As living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now adulterated by the material atmosphere. The material atmosphere, in which we are now living, is called maya, or illusion. Maya means "that which is not." And what is this illusion? The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. We are trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but actually we are becoming more and more entangled in her complexities. Therefore, although we are engaged in a hard struggle to conquer nature, we are ever more dependent on her. This illusory struggle against material nature can be stopped at once by revival of our eternal Krsna consciousness.
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare is the transcendental process for reviving this original, pure consciousness. By chanting this transcendental vibration, we can cleanse away all misgivings within our hearts. The basic principle of all such misgivings is the false consciousness that I am the lord of all I survey.
Krsna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind. This consciousness is the original, natural energy of the living entity. When we hear this transcendental vibration, this consciousness is revived. This simplest method of meditation is recommended for this age. By practical experience also, one can perceive that by chanting this maha-mantra, or the Great Chanting for Deliverance, one can at once feel a transcendental ecstasy coming through from the spiritual stratum. In the material concept of life we are busy in the matter of sense gratification, as if we were in the lower, animal stage. A little elevated from this status of sense gratification, one is engaged in mental speculation for the purpose of getting out of the material clutches. A little elevated from this speculative status, when one is intelligent enough, one tries to find out the supreme cause of all causes--within and without. And when one is factually on the plane of spiritual understanding, surpassing the stages of sense, mind, and intelligence, he is then on the transcendental plane. (Srila Prabhupada - Science of Self-Realization)

Continued here:
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_expose/what_kc/chanting.htm

Prabhupada You-Tube Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=prabhupada

[rossus]

well, according to the description that little text give me...
i'm already in - "krishna concsciousness" - mode.

because i am pure conciousness,
there are no thoughts... there is no desire... neither is there fear.

i'm happy. i love and i am loved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i'm sure; chanting a mantra can be a little boost for people to become more aware of their true-self..
as consciousness; not the body/mind they believe themselves to be.

but contrary to the hare krishna belief, the reason the person gets liberated is not because he was singing "hare krishna".
the reason the person gets liberated is because he stopped imagining problems.

my opinion is that, chanting a mantra is unnecessary and not beneficial per se...
it can easily become counter-productive for one's own "spiritual enlightenment" or "self-realization".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so anyway;
just as i expected... the proof you just named... that the teachings of "hare krishna" is the true religion,
is comparable with the proof that Christians get that their religion is the true religion.

the more you want and impure you become, the unhappier you will be.
the less you want and the purer you become, the happier you will be.
thats how it works.


but why is Hare Krishna the right religion?
i mean, buddhism and christianity talk about the same thing.
as purer you live... the happier you become.

why believe the stories about reincarnation and god, the way "hare krishna"-religion says it is...
and why not the bible... or why not the buddhist scriptures?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i go sleep now, i'll be back tomorrow.
peace

[pilgrim]

Can you prove that Hare Krishna is not the "true religion"?
Aren't you willing to even try the experiment* to find out for yourself, or will you just blindly dis-believe and remain wilfully ignorant?
Proof of the Truth will not be handed to us on a plate, some effort on our part is necessary.

*Read 'Bhagavad-gita As It Is' + Chant 'Hare Krishna' mantra (10 mins) daily for a few weeks.
What have you got to lose? You could have everything to gain. :)

Online 'Bhagavad-Gita':
http://www.asitis.com/

Online 'Science Of Self-Realization'
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_expose/what_kc/what_kc.htm
Read this instead of 'Bhagavad-gita' for an easy to understand introduction to Krishna Consciousness.

Maha-Mantra:
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogywo6qjeBo

[octopusrex]

I'll let you know in April what I think.

[pilgrim]

Devotion = Slavery

Devotion
1. committed love: deep love and commitment

2. dedication: great dedication and loyalty

3. enthusiasm: strong enthusiasm and admiration for somebody or something

4. religious fervor: fervent religious or spiritual feeling

5. act of devoting: the act of devoting something or being devoted to a particular purpose


Slavery
1. system based on enslaved labor: the practice of, or a system based on, using the enforced labor of other people

2. condition of being enslaved laborer: the state or condition of being held in involuntary servitude as the property of somebody else

3. hard work: very hard work, especially for low pay and under bad conditions

4. state of being dominated: a state of being completely dominated by another

[pilgrim]

harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha

"In this age of Kali there is no alternative, there is no alternative, there is no alternative for spiritual progress than the holy name, the holy name, the holy name of the Lord." (Brhan-naradiya Purana)


itioodasakam namnah
kali -kalmasa-namnam
natah parataropayah
sarva-vedesu drsyate

"After searching through all the Vedic literature one cannot find a method of religion more sublime for this age than the chanting of Hare Krsna." (Sriali-santarana Upanishad)


"Those who are advanced and highly qualified and are interested in the essence of life know the good qualities of Kali-yuga. Such people worship the age of Kali because in this age, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one can advance in spiritual knowledge and attain life's goal."
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.36)

"Although Kali-yuga is full of faults, there is still one good quality about this age. It is that simply by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.3.5)

“Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Vishnu, in Treta-yuga by performing sacrifices and in Dvapara-yuga by seeing the Lord's lotus feet can also be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.3.52)

Everywhere in this age of iron age of Kali everything is degraded, the duration of life is diminished, and men are not moved to understand self-realization, and if they are, they are invariably misled by so many deceitful leaders. The age is very corrupt. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu's process of chanting Hare Krsna is the best and the simplest method.

[paganus]

Read all of Prabhupada's 'Bhagavad-gita As It Is' & chant the Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra at least 10 minutes a day for a few weeks (avoiding meat, sex, alcohol & other drugs as much as possible), then we can talk about "proof" & "blind belief".

Online 'Bhagavad-Gita':

http://www.asitis.com/

Maha-Mantra:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hareim already vegetarian,so part way there! :D

[octopusrex]

Slavery is the original condition of mankind.

Slavery to the 5 sense-organs and desire nature.

Slavery to sickness, old age and death.

Nobody is really free until they realize WHY they are slaves.

Breaking free from slavery is the work.

[pilgrim]

You have to be careful with any religious leader or organization because frauds abound. Here is the website of an ISKCON leader whom I believe to be authentic:

http://www.sda-archives.com/

I have been a subscriber to his daily e-mails for a couple of years now, and I've found him to be very insightful. He answers questions from readers, so you can email him any questions you may have.

I would suggest using the search feature to search this forum for threads on the subject. I've started some myself that you may find interesting.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this Sankarshan Dasa is not authentic. He is one of 80+ bogus, voted-in ISKCON "gurus".
I would advise you to stick with Srila Prabhupada's original books & the thousands of audio recordings he made if you want to hear from a genuine Guru and make real spiritual advancement.

ISKCON's Betrayal of Srila Prabhupada:
http://www.freewebs.com/radhadamodara2/betrayal.htm

[alrick888]

Pilgrim, it sounds like you are in serious need of some cult deprogramming, man!
You are openly and shamelessly proselytizing for your brand of Hare Krishna in this thread.

Even if the moderators let you get away with it, I won't stand for you sucking people into a brainwashing cult. There is so much information on the web of people's experiences with Hare Krishna, nobody in his right mind who could spell G-o-o-g-l-e would even consider joining!

So what if you are all splintered up now, and you represent the "true Hare Krishna". That is what they all say undoubtedly. Get some help man.

Here are your links:

http://surrealist.org/links/harekrishna.html

Child Abuse in Hare Krishna:
http://surrealist.org/gurukula/index.html

Exposing Cults video:
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/television1.htm

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim, it sounds like you are in serious need of some cult deprogramming, man!
You are openly and shamelessly proselytizing for your brand of Hare Krishna in this thread.

Even if the moderators let you get away with it, I won't stand for you sucking people into a brainwashing cult. There is so much information on the web of people's experiences with Hare Krishna, nobody in his right mind who could spell G-o-o-g-l-e would even consider joining!

So what if you are all splintered up now, and you represent the "true Hare Krishna". That is what they all say undoubtedly. Get some help man.

Here are your links:

http://surrealist.org/links/harekrishna.html

Child Abuse in Hare Krishna:
http://surrealist.org/gurukula/index.html

Exposing Cults video:
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/television1.htm

Thanks, but i've seen all those links already, plus many, many more. I've been investigating & researching the 'Hare Krishna's' for 20 years. I spent over a year on the inside 18 years ago. I know many ex-members of the ISKCON cult.

You say: "Even if the moderators let you get away with it, I won't stand for you sucking people into a brainwashing cult".

This is a thread called 'Hare Krishna' in the Religious section of the forum. Why can't i tell the truth about what i know about 'Hare Krishna'? Who are you to stop me? You sound like a right little fascist.

[paganus]

Thanks, but i've seen all those links already, plus many, many more. I've been investigating & researching the 'Hare Krishna's' for 20 years. I spent over a year on the inside 18 years ago. I know many ex-members of the ISKCON cult.

You say: "Even if the moderators let you get away with it, I won't stand for you sucking people into a brainwashing cult".

This is a thread called 'Hare Krishna' in the Religious section of the forum. Why can't i tell the truth about what i know about 'Hare Krishna'? Who are you to stop me? You sound like a right little fascist.you'll find a lot of that here! i got accused of scaremongoring for posting on the 'war on terror' section!!! ffs.

[ichi wa zen]

I dont trust anything that comes out of India besides The Buddha! MMMM, maybe i am racist! ;)

No , really, look at what this Hinduism brought India.........caste and the people have been enslaved by those evil wannabe goodguys named Brahmins.

I say NAY to Hinduism, a HUGE NAY!

[paganus]

I dont trust anything that comes out of India besides The Buddha! MMMM, maybe i am racist! ;)

No , really, look at what this Hinduism brought India.........caste and the people have been enslaved by those evil wannabe goodguys named Brahmins.

I say NAY to Hinduism, a HUGE NAY!the Buddahs cool!

[alrick888]

A "right little fascist"? Wow.

Well, excuse me if i went a bit overboard with my anti-cult statements. Just that from my own experience with cults this is how it often starts.

"Just try this technique, see if it works! It worked for thousands of people, by the way...."

and...surprise...it works! Repeat any behavior for a period of time and you get into a trance.

I am not trying to stop you from telling your "truth". i find it a bit hard to believe that after 18 years after having left you are still so caught up in this stuff. That is what I call "brainwashed".

I reread my post, and I really did not want to suggest that people that get caught up in cults are stupid or dumb. Because that's simply not true.

Some of the most intelligent and well-educated people can become members of a cult for periods of time. I understood that the famous Brazilian writer Paulo Coelho was a Hare Krisha for a few years.

And you pilgrim also sound like an intelligent person. So, you say didn't want to get people into a cult. Well good for you.

How did you find out it was a cult? And how did you cope with the cult "hang-over"?

Pray tell.

[pilgrim]

I dont trust anything that comes out of India besides The Buddha! MMMM, maybe i am racist! ;

No , really, look at what this Hinduism brought India.........caste and the people have been enslaved by those evil wannabe goodguys named Brahmins.

I say NAY to Hinduism, a HUGE NAY!

Buddha is an incarnation of Krishna:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18959

The caste system (classified by birth) is a perversion of the Vedic Varnasrama system (classified by qualifications & aptitude).

Krishna Consciousness is NOT Hinduism!
(A few of many quotes from Srila Prabhupada the Founder & only real Guru of the Hare Krishna movement):

You may call the Vedas Hindu, but "Hindu" is a foreign name. WE ARE NOT HINDUS. (Sri Isopanisad Introduction)

Simply we are teaching that “Become God conscious.” God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. He’s God. And WE ARE ALSO NOT HINDU or Muslim or Christian. This is our bodily designation. We are all pure, part and parcel of the Supreme. (BG Lecture NY 23/11/66)

Lord Caitanya, He said that “I am not a brahmana. I am not a Christian. I AM NOT A HINDU. I am not a sannyasi. I am nothing of this sort.” Then what You are? “I am the servant’s servant’s servant of Krsna. That is My identification.” And when you identify yourself in that way, you are liberated. That is Krsna consciousness, perfection of Krsna consciousness. (CC Lecture New York 21/12/66)

Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone will help us. Maybe... In that way sometimes Hindus are also against. It is not the Mohammedans. Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s time, even THE HINDUS WERE AGAINST HIS MOVEMENT, the brahmanas. They complained to the Kazi that “THIS IS NOT HINDU MOVEMENT.” You see? The sankirtana movement. Therefore Kazi had to take steps to stop the sankirtana movement. So Kazi took step on the ground of complaint by the Hindus.
Nitai: That’s similar to what happened in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: That’s similar to what happened...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Nitai: ...in Bombay.
Prabhupada: THE HINDUS THEY WANTED TO BREAK OUR TEMPLE, and they broke part of it. You do not know? (Morning Walk 6/3/74)Actually, “Hindu,” THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS “HINDU” RELIGION. We don’t find in the Vedic scripture. Hindu religion... Hindu religion is a modern term given by the foreigners. Actually the Indians, bharatiya, they, their religion is varnasrama-dharma, religion of four castes and four spiritual orders, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The persons who follow these four orders of social status and four orders of spiritual advancement, they are called varnasrama. SO HINDU RELIGION IS A MISCALCULATION. (CC Lecture - NY 11/1/67)

But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. FICTITIOUSLY, THEY HAVE ACCEPTED A HODGEPODGE THING WHICH IS CALLED HINDUISM. THEREFORE THERE IS TROUBLE. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. That is... Krsna says, God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13]. So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that “I don’t take this law.” No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you’ll not be happy. You’ll be punished. So God says maya srstam. “It is given by Me.” So how we can deny it? And that is religion. (Conv. - Vrindavan 28/6/76)

Other religious sects, they say this is Hindu belief. When Krsna says dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara: just like the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming young man. This is science. AND WHY DO YOU SAY IT IS HINDU BELIEF? Does it mean that a Muslim or Christian child does not become a boy? What do you mean by Hindu belief? But they say it like that, Hindu belief. Is that correct if somebody says it is Hindu belief? NO, IT IS FACT, IT IS SCIENCE. What do you think? Is that Hindu belief?" (Tehran 8/8/76)

So where is the difficulty to understand? Plain thing. Plain thing. But we are stubborn. We do not wish to understand. This is not a sectarian; this is a science. If a child becomes a boy, is that sectarian? The Hindu child becomes a boy, Hindu boy, and the Christian child becomes a Christian. That is outward, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. But within this body... I am Hindu or Christian because I have got this body from the Christian father-mother, Hindu father-mother. But that is body. I am not this body. Therefore we have to understand first that “I am not this body. Therefore I am not Hindu, not Muslim, not Christian, not black, not white. I am pure spirit soul.” Aham brahmasmi. THIS IS THE FIRST BASIC KNOWLEDGE. THIS IS NOT SECTARIAN. This is a basic knowledge, you believe or not believe. (BG Lect. – 22/4/76 Melbourne)

In Durban we went to that university. You remember? That Arya-samaji? He was speaking that “This is Hindu conception. Hindu conception.” And what do you mean by Hindu conception? A child grows to become a boy. Is that Hindu conception? It is science. When Krsna said, dehino ’smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13], that’s a fact. It is applicable to the Hindus, to the Muslim, to the Christian, everyone. Why do you say it is Hindu conception? SO, YOU HAVE TO PRESENT IN THAT WAY, THAT THEY MAY NOT THINK THAT IT IS HINDU CONCEPTION. Because they are all rascals, unless you explain it, that this is meant for everyone, they will misunderstand that Bhagavata is for the Hindus or for the Indians. It is for everyone. But one must realize. There is no question of Hindu conception or Muslim conception. (MW - Mayapur 20/1/76)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HINDU DHARMA. NO. There is no such word in the whole Vedic literature. You won’t find in the Bhagavad-gita or Bhagavata as Hindu dharma. There is one word as bhagavata-dharma, but there is no such word as Hindu dharma. This Hindu dharma or Hindu... This is creation by our neighbour, Indian neighbour, the Middle-east Muhammadans. They gave the name, Indian people, as “Hindu.” “Hindu” means... There is one river, Sindhu. The Muhammadans, they pronounce sa as ha. So those who were on the other side of the Sindhu River, Hindu River, they were called Hindus. But actually Vedic religion is neither for Hindus nor for Christian nor for... It is meant for the human being. Vedic literature... This Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, they are VEDIC literature.
(SB Lecture - NY 5/3/75)

Bhakti, devotional service is not dependent on any material condition. Because one man is very rich, he can get Krsna? No. Because one man is very poor, he cannot get Krsna? No. That’s not right. Because one is Hindu or Indian, he can get Krsna, not others? No. That is also not. Krsna is unconditionally for everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: sarva yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. Otherwise, how He can be God? If He is a Hindu God, just like they describe in the dictionary that Krsna, a Hindu God—that is nonsense. Krsna is for everyone. Krsna does not say that “I am a Hindu God.’’ But these rascals say Krsna is Hindu God. This is going on. You see in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, sarva yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. “In all species of life.’’ Sambhavanti murtayah. There are as many different forms of life. Tasam mahad yoni, brahma: “Their mother is this material nature, and I am their seed-giving father.’’ Krsna says that. So how can Krsna be Indian or Hindu or this or that? No. Krsna is for everyone. And the proof is that five years ago in the Western countries nobody knew what is Krsna. How they’re taking Krsna in so loving attitude? This is the proof that Krsna is for everyone, and everyone is for Krsna.
Try to understand this philosophy. Don’t be mislead. IT IS NOT A SECTARIAN RELIGION. IT IS THE FACT. (Arrival Lecture - Gainsville 29/7/71)

[alrick888]

A "right little fascist"? Wow.

Well, excuse me if i went a bit overboard with my anti-cult statements. Just that from my own experience with cults this is how it often starts.

"Just try this technique, see if it works! It worked for thousands of people, by the way...."

and...surprise...it works! Repeat any behavior for a period of time and you get into a trance.

I am not trying to stop you from telling your "truth". i find it a bit hard to believe that after 18 years after having left you are still so caught up in this stuff. That is what I call "brainwashed".

I reread my post, and I really did not want to suggest that people that get caught up in cults are stupid or dumb. Because that's simply not true.

Some of the most intelligent and well-educated people can become members of a cult for periods of time. I understood that the famous Brazilian writer Paulo Coelho was a Hare Krisha for a few years.

And you pilgrim also sound like an intelligent person. So, you say didn't want to get people into a cult. Well good for you.

How did you find out it was a cult? And how did you cope with the cult "hang-over"?

Pray tell.

Pilgrim, you insulted me, and you ignored my questions. Hare Krishna is a cult and everybody in the field knows that.

Conclusion: You are still in the cult, psychologically if not physically. You are seriously brainwashed and probably never had the courage to really get out.

Advice: Don't act bigger or tougher than you actually are. It is just weak if you cannot think for yourself, and nothing else.

[pilgrim]

A "right little fascist"? Wow.

Well, excuse me if i went a bit overboard with my anti-cult statements. Just that from my own experience with cults this is how it often starts.

"Just try this technique, see if it works! It worked for thousands of people, by the way...."

and...surprise...it works! Repeat any behavior for a period of time and you get into a trance.

I am not trying to stop you from telling your "truth". i find it a bit hard to believe that after 18 years after having left you are still so caught up in this stuff. That is what I call "brainwashed".

I reread my post, and I really did not want to suggest that people that get caught up in cults are stupid or dumb. Because that's simply not true.

Some of the most intelligent and well-educated people can become members of a cult for periods of time. I understood that the famous Brazilian writer Paulo Coelho was a Hare Krisha for a few years.

And you pilgrim also sound like an intelligent person. So, you say didn't want to get people into a cult. Well good for you.

How did you find out it was a cult? And how did you cope with the cult "hang-over"?

Pray tell.

I realised ISKCON had became a cult by a mixture of common-sense and by studying the books, letters & recordings of Srila Prabhupada.
I also found a casette tape in a ISKCON temple, where these wannabee "gurus" were recorded in the act of giving poison to Prabhupada!
Here is the tape + transcript:
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/paul/prabhupada_poisoned.htm

Prabhupada is the real thing, ISKCON is a cult of 80 gangsters posing as gurus & a bunch of idiotic followers (mainly Russian & Eastern European immigrants) who blindly follow them.

[alrick888]

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/gelberg_steven_thingslearned_en0603.htm

Apparently in the Hare Krishna movement you can learn how to wipe your butt the right way:

2) I learned that it’s wrong to use toilet-tissue after “passing stool” (as the devotees call it). I learned this on that same first day in the ashram. I had just completed the act, noticed that the dispenser was empty, called out to any who might hear me, asking where I might find the toilet paper, and was answered by a disembodied voice who explained that using toilet-paper is the “smear-method” and that water and fingers work much better.

3) I learned that if you and your cohorts chant Sanskrit prayers on the streets of a any city, you attract such a degree of disbelieving stares, hostility and ridicule, that you’re forced to construct a fire-wall of conscious separation from the outside world, one that becomes nearly impenetrable.

4) I learned that however one wishes to explain it, or explain it away, there is a felt and uncanny power in the repetition of the Hare Krishna mantra, or any other mantra-like construction of names of the Divine (a form of prayer found in virtually every religious tradition). The use of such spiritual techniques may certainly be co-opted for cultic purposes, but that does not diminish the fact of their transformative efficacy.

5) I learned that certain young people, unable to function in the “real” world due to serious psychological problems, can learn to function well enough within the structure of the ashram, and even to become highly skilled and productive within that regimented and protective environment.

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim, you insulted me, and you ignored my questions. Hare Krishna is a cult and everybody in the field knows that.

Conclusion: You are still in the cult, psychologically if not physically. You are seriously brainwashed and probably never had the courage to really get out.

Advice: Don't act bigger or tougher than you actually are. It is just weak if you cannot think for yourself, and nothing else.

I think it was you who insulted me & i did'nt ignore your questions.
I sure can think for myself.
You really don't know what you're talking about mate, so best be quiet or go elsewhere.

[alrick888]

You found that cassette tape yourself? Aren't you embellishing the truth a bit?

Anyway, what this guy learned in HK:

"16) I learned that there seems to be a basic human desire, even a need, to feel superior to others, and that the most exquisite gratification of that need is to be continually assured, by the highest authorities in the universe, that one (along with one’s friends) is superior to all the other inhabitants of Planet Earth, and that this clear fact would certainly be acknowledged by everyone if they could but see."

....gee, so sorry I just cannot see that....

"17) I learned how the seemingly opposite impulses of compassion and misanthropy can be inextricably melded in the act (or pretense) of saving souls."

.....or proselytizing.....

"18) I learned that whatever good qualities a non-devotee may appear to have--however benign, good-hearted, conscientious, or moral—the mere fact of that person’s not being a devotee of Krishna renders him a sinner, to be avoided at all costs (lest one become “contaminated”)."

....hey, maybe that's why you suggested I go away? You don't want to get contaminated?

[octopusrex]

Before "religion" came around, there were brujos, shamans and wizards or witch-doctors. These people had special knowledge, not shared by all. Brahmins also have confidential knowledge.

I am living at a Krnsa temple, and I suspect somebody tried to kill my pet mouse there.

There's a war for souls.

"By their fruits..."

My hunch is that Jesus was a Brahmana.

Don't let a few rotten apples scare you away from the apple pudding.

[pilgrim]

You found that cassette tape yourself? Aren't you embellishing the truth a bit?


I found the tape labelled 'bedside conversations' at Bhaktivedanta Manor in 1988. I still have it & it was me who made the webpage & transcript.

[alrick888]

I found the tape labelled 'bedside conversations' at Bhaktivedanta Manor in 1988. I still have it & it was me who made the webpage & transcript.

The page is very well done.

So you must be Paul then?

[pilgrim]

The page is very well done.

So you must be Paul then?

Well done, Sherlock!

[paganus]

Before "religion" came around, there were brujos, shamans and wizards or witch-doctors. These people had special knowledge, not shared by all. Brahmins also have confidential knowledge.

I am living at a Krnsa temple, and I suspect somebody tried to kill my pet mouse there.

There's a war for souls.

"By their fruits..."

My hunch is that Jesus was a Brahmana.

Don't let a few rotten apples scare you away from the apple pudding.
you follow krsna,octopus?

[pilgrim]

I am living at a Krnsa temple, and I suspect somebody tried to kill my pet mouse there.

I don't believe you live in a Krishna (or Krinsha) temple. Not cult-ISKCON anyway. You would not be allowed to use the internet as freely or as much as you do. The bogus gurus do not want their so-called "disciples" to hear ex-members such as myself telling the truth about their so-called "gurus", so they are told not to use the internet, or read anything critical of ISKCON.

See how ISKCON (mis)leaders react to someone distributing a magazine (Back To Prabhupada) which contains information on their criminal activities & takeover of Prabhupada's ISKCON:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IShsqg2NlQ

I reckon the guy who tries to grab the camera (bogus "guru" Ravindra Swarup) could be a naga reptilian.
Check him out here (in dark glasses & hat):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEV8jb9s71s&feature=related

So there are these SNAKE-LIKE PERSONS. They are envious about our movement, and they are opposing. That is the nature. Prahlada Maharaja also was opposed by his father, what to speak of others THESE THINGS WILL HAPPEN... HE WAS ALSO SERVED WITH POISON. (Srila Prabhupada - Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture Mayapur 28/02/77)

[octopusrex]

you follow krsna,octopus?

Yes, I do. And no, I don't live in an Iskon temple.

[pilgrim]

Yes, I do. And no, I don't live in an Iskon temple.

What Krsna temple do you live in?

[ichi wa zen]

Buddha is an incarnation of Krishna

Ha Ha HA ha HA.

Quote from some book:

"Some Hindu’s say that Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, and even go to the extent of calling the Buddha a Hindu. The Buddha himself declared that his teachings was a revelation of truths discovered by himself, not known to his contemporaries, not inherited from past tradition."

[pilgrim]

Ha Ha HA ha HA.

Quote from some book:

"Some Hindu’s say that Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, and even go to the extent of calling the Buddha a Hindu. The Buddha himself declared that his teachings was a revelation of truths discovered by himself, not known to his contemporaries, not inherited from past tradition."

Ho Ho HO ho HO.

Where does that quote from "some book" indicate that Buddha WAS NOT an incarnation of Krishna?
God is not Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, etc...

Buddha's appearance was predicted over 2000 before he was born:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18959

“Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.”

Srimad-Bhagavatam was composed just prior to the beginning of the age of Kali (about five thousand years ago), and Lord Buddha appeared about twenty-six hundred years ago. Therefore in the Srimad-Bhagavatam Lord Buddha is foretold. Such is the authority of this clear scripture. There are many such prophecies, and they are being fulfilled one after another. They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates.
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.23)

http://bhagavata.org/images/bimages/avataras.jpg

[ichi wa zen]

Ho Ho HO ho HO.

Where does that quote from "some book" indicate that Buddha WAS NOT an incarnation of Krishna?


If The Buddha himself said that he was not Hindu nor his teachings, he obviously wasnt Krishna or he would of said he was.

Please quote from Buddhist scriptures that The Buddha was Krishna, i have never read anything about that. What i have read is this:

"Since Jataka tales are given from the perspective of Buddha's previous lives (as well as the previous lives of many of Buddha's followers), Krishna appears as one of the lives of Sariputra, one of Buddha's foremost disciples and the "Dhammasenapati" or "Chief General of the Dharma" and is usually shown being Buddha's "right hand man" in Buddhist art and iconography."

Source: Wikipedia

[pilgrim]

If The Buddha himself said that he was not Hindu nor his teachings, he obviously wasnt Krishna or he would of said he was.

Krsna and his Buddha incarnation are not "Hindu" or any other temporary man-made material designation.

The word Hindu does not appear anywhere in the Vedas, the canonical literature upon which Krishna consciousness is based. Indeed, the very word Hindu springs from the mispronunciation by early Persian adventurers of the name of the Indus, the river which runs through north-west India and which for them demarcated the boundaries of a distinct land-mass and culture. The land of the Hindus became known as ‘Hindustan’ and then the British, coming to India some centuries later, were the next to add their labels, attaching the Latin-Greek suffix ‘-ism’ and thereby naming the religion ‘Hinduism.’

And thus the name has stuck. Historical revisionists in India of the 21st century, tired of being continually defined by labels given to them by foreigners, now say sarcastically: “Hindus did not know they were Hindus until the British told them they were.”

Hinduism simply means the ‘ism’ of Hindustan; the set of beliefs and the way of life as practised by those dwelling in the land we now know as India.
More Here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=259010&postcount=45

Why Buddha did not reveal that he was an incarnation of Krishna:

Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the sastra; that Lord Buddha will appear in Gaya Pradesh, in the province of Gaya, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how is he cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don’t believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that “Yes, there is no God. You hear me.” But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don’t believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, “We don’t believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha.” And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bhagavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura-dvisam. Sammohita-sura-dvisam. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahimsa. “Don’t kill.” That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that “Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities.”
(Srila Prabhupada - Conversation 07/04/72)

[octopusrex]

If the Hare Krsna movement can ally with the Rastafarian movement who can ally with the Native american movement who actually follows Hopi prophecy who....;)

[octopusrex]

What Krsna temple do you live in?

Why do you want to know?

[mariag]

http://www.harekrishna.com/prabhupada2.jpg
First : Background :


The founder of the movement Hare Krsna was His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada, thats his title.:)
He was born in Calcutta 1896. He first met his spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami, in Calcutta in 1922. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, a prominent religious scholar and the founder of sixty-four Gaudiya Mathas (Vedic institutes) in India, liked this educated young man and convinced him to dedicate his life to teaching Vedic knowledge. Srila Prabhupada became his student and, in 1933, his formally initiated disciple.
After publishing three volumes of the Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada came to the United States, in September 1965, to fulfill the mission of his spiritual master. Subsequently, His Divine Grace wrote more than fifty volumes of authoritative commentated translations and summary studies of the philosophical and religious classics of India.

When he first arrived by freighter in New York City, Srila Prabhupada was practically penniless. Only after almost a year of great difficulty did he establish the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, in July of 1966. Before he passed away on November 14, 1977, he had guided the Society and seen it grow to a worldwide confederation of more than one hundred asramas, schools, temples, institutes, and farm communities.

Second: What is HK?

Krishna is a name of the Supreme. It means "all- attractive." Anything that might attract you has its source in the Supreme. Therefore the Supreme is also known as Rama (rhymes with "drama"). "Rama" means "the highest eternal pleasure."

All of us are pleasure-seeking creatures. So you can say that directly or indirectly we are all seeking Krishna. Chanting Hare Krishna is a way of seeking Krishna directly.

As for the word "Hare" (pronounced huh-ray), it's a call to Krishna's divine energy. Just as the sun shines forth to us through its energies like heat and light, the Supreme reveals Himself through His multitude of energies. If the Supreme is the source of everything, then whatever we see--and even what we don't see-- belongs to the energy of the Supreme.

Now we're trying to exploit that energy, but the more we try the more entangled we get and the more complex our life becomes. But when we place ourselves in harmony with Krishna and Krishna's energy, we return to our natural, pure state of consciousness. This is what we call "Krishna consciousness."

http://www.harekrishna.com/:p

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada was an enlighted spirit that tried to teach people about the meaning of karma and infinite love , in his own ways. He was according to his followers , killed by poison beacuse of his philosophy. He knew about the conspiracy and tried to show us a better way and a better light ....

[pilgrim]

Nice post mariag, but the harekrsna link you posted is for a "Illuminati" controlled (Pseudo ISKCON cult) website.
Here is an good independent website:
http://krishna.org/

What happened to the Hare Krishna's?:
http://krishna.org/ISKCON/WHTTHK/

[pilgrim]

Srila Prabhupada MP3 Audio + Transcripts:

http://realaudio.krishna.org/

Transcendental insights into the workings of the "Matrix".

http://deshika.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/prabhupada.jpg

[mariag]

Nice post mariag, but the harekrsna link you posted is for a "Illuminati" controlled (Pseudo ISKCON cult) website.
Here is an good independent website:
http://krishna.org/

What happened to the Hare Krishna's?:
http://krishna.org/ISKCON/WHTTHK/
Peace
It was not my intention to incourage the illuminati by this :)
What I was trying to show was that this person , the founder of the movement was an enlighted spirit that spread wisdom and love all over the world ....:)

[mariag]

Nice post mariag, but the harekrsna link you posted is for a "Illuminati" controlled (Pseudo ISKCON cult) website.
Here is an good independent website:
http://krishna.org/

What happened to the Hare Krishna's?:
http://krishna.org/ISKCON/WHTTHK/

and thank you again for the "better link" :)

[ichi wa zen]

Krsna and his Buddha incarnation are not "Hindu" or any other temporary man-made material designation.

The word Hindu does not appear anywhere in the Vedas, the canonical literature upon which Krishna consciousness is based. Indeed, the very word Hindu springs from the mispronunciation by early Persian adventurers of the name of the Indus, the river which runs through north-west India and which for them demarcated the boundaries of a distinct land-mass and culture. The land of the Hindus became known as ‘Hindustan’ and then the British, coming to India some centuries later, were the next to add their labels, attaching the Latin-Greek suffix ‘-ism’ and thereby naming the religion ‘Hinduism.’

And thus the name has stuck. Historical revisionists in India of the 21st century, tired of being continually defined by labels given to them by foreigners, now say sarcastically: “Hindus did not know they were Hindus until the British told them they were.”

Hinduism simply means the ‘ism’ of Hindustan; the set of beliefs and the way of life as practised by those dwelling in the land we now know as India.
More Here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=259010&postcount=45

Why Buddha did not reveal that he was an incarnation of Krishna:

Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the sastra; that Lord Buddha will appear in Gaya Pradesh, in the province of Gaya, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how is he cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don’t believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that “Yes, there is no God. You hear me.” But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don’t believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, “We don’t believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha.” And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bhagavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura-dvisam. Sammohita-sura-dvisam. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahimsa. “Don’t kill.” That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that “Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities.”
(Srila Prabhupada - Conversation 07/04/72)

Waves are Waves, Waters are Waters.

[octopusrex]

...and the truth shall set you free...

...by their fruits you shall know them...

[ichi wa zen]

People, i have listened and seen this Prabhupada Swami Pastrami.

He blinks with his eyes a lot.
He does not sit with spine erect.
His teachings are trapped in dualism.
His eyes are not cristal clear white.
His eyes have no twinkle in them.

Enlightenment is not present within this Swami Pastrami. I am sorry!

[octopusrex]

Zen: How are you tu judge enligtenment in others if you do not have it for yourself?

You seem to "know" too much.

[paganus]

People, i have listened and seen this Prabhupada Swami Pastrami.

He blinks with his eyes a lot.
He does not sit with spine erect.
His teachings are trapped in dualism.
His eyes are not cristal clear white.
His eyes have no twinkle in them.

Enlightenment is not present within this Swami Pastrami. I am sorry!

he BLINKS WITH HIS EYES!!! :eek:

[octopusrex]

Chan = Zen = 0.

[ichi wa zen]

http://www.mandalamagazine.org/2002/images/tnh.jpg

[pilgrim]

Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57x5Ip9jfgc

http://www.krishna.org/images/Prabhupada/PrabhupadaSmiling.jpg

[mariag]

http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/articles1/70_154.JPG

Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?

Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!

Devotee’s: Jaya! Haribol!

Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever for my books and you will utilise.

[Interview, Berkley, 1975]
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1356335783181162527&hl=en-GB

[pilgrim]

People, i have listened and seen this Prabhupada Swami Pastrami.

He blinks with his eyes a lot.
He does not sit with spine erect.
His teachings are trapped in dualism.
His eyes are not cristal clear white.
His eyes have no twinkle in them.

Enlightenment is not present within this Swami Pastrami. I am sorry!

The more you say, the more your foolishness is revealed.

[mariag]

The more you say, the more your foolishness is revealed.

Pilgrim!
Did you not know that the darkness fear the light and always try to smear it?
Keep up the good work with the conciousness with the light ...
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was (is) a great part of the light and the illuminati will try to cover the truth that he speaks .

[mariag]

Cardinal Danielou: We admit that in the animal there may be the same type of biological existence as in men, but there is no soul. We believe that the soul is a human soul.
Srila Prabhupada: Our Bhagavad-gita says sarva-yonisu, "In all species of life the soul exists." The body is like a suit of clothes. You have black clothes; I am dressed in saffron clothes. But within the dress you are a human being, and I am also a human being. Similarly, the bodies of the different species are just like different types of dress. There are soul, a part and parcel of God. Suppose a man has two sons, not equally meritorious. One may be a Supreme Court judge and the other may be a common laborer, but the father claims both as his sons. He does not make the distinction that the son who is a judge is very important and the worker-son is not important. And if the judge-son says, "My dear father, your other son is useless; let me cut him up and eat him," will the father allow this?
Cardinal Danielou: Certainly not, but the idea that all life is part of the life of God is difficult for us to admit. There is a great difference between human life and animal life.
Srila Prabhupada: That difference is due to the development of consciousness. In the human body there is developed consciousness. Even a tree has a soul, but a tree's consciousness is not very developed. If you cut a tree it does not resist. Actually, it does resist, but only to a very small degree.

This is not a try to convince everyone that krishna is right neither is it a try to convince otherwise:)
And not beacuse I am a vegetarian but I agree with Srila Prabhupada when he speaks of the body being only our clothes that contains a soul and therefore I simply can´t see a difference between animal and human . Is there any?
David Icke speaks about the body as being the container and within the container there is an eternal soul , I agree.So why does the Cardinal keep on defending the right of killing animal for lack of soul?

Nowhere in the bible is there a sentence that sais "thou shall not kill humans but it is ok to kill animal because she is not worthy beacuse she lacks soul ".
There are few things that makes me angry , I do not want to be angry cause it gives my "container" negative karma , but this ridiculous statment from the cardinal doesn´t even has roots in the Bible.
And he keeps on saying that Jesus ate meat . how did he know ? What makes him so sure that "jesus" ate meat?
If Christ was Krishna , one and the same , He did NOT EAT MEAT. If that is the case is all I am saying.
This is only more proof to me that the practisioners of today´s christianity doesn´t have a clue of what they are preaching.
So sorry if I offend anyone on here . It is not my intention ..
Love And Peace .

[mariag]

It's not cool, chanting Hare Krishna at 4 am every morning for two hours or so, think about it? What use is that too man or beast> NONE!

I nearly joined them once, looks all nice and pretty living on a farm in a commune. It's not what it appears to be same as satanists they use fluffy language and lies to draw you in then they brainwash you and manipulate you. Just a warning.

Read the books and you'll find it originates from the Hindu religion, this is where Darwin's theory of evolution came from survival of the fittest bullshit ( The ruling elite believe all this nonsense to justify their theory that they're the top of the evolutionary process ) and all that crap about Karma, the one's at the top who have everything deserve what they have and those who struggle to survive while those at the top refuse to give what they have to help those of a lower caste ( class ) is sicker than sick.

Also, George Harrsion who promoted Krishna garbage, didn't you know the Beatles where a product of the Tavistock Institute? And where used to promote the 60's drug culture all this and the New Age religions including Krishna consciousness etc well MI6 and the Intelligence agencies where behind it all and sent out their agents including Crowley, the Maharishi, Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley and all your Guru's funded and promoted by the Ruling Elite's culture creators.

Yeah it sucked when I found out the truth also.

The use of Chanting is well do you know why Krishna followers are chanting?
They do it to become closer to Krishna / God and to be more concious . It´s no more odd then to believe in an eternal spirit and why is it odd to wake up early in the morning to sing? A chant is a song as I see it , a sort of joyfull psalm to please a God that is suppose to give the soul pleassure and love on an eternal basis .
I see no difference between Chanting to Krishna at 4 am, then going to church at 11 am on a sunday morning for the same purpose, no more then to please the soul and A God that they believe in and think it is right for them .

[pilgrim]

The following conversation between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and some of his disciples took place during an early-morning walk in Geneva on June 6, 1974:

Srila Prabhupada: Meat-eating is the main barrier to understanding God. The meat-eaters will never be able to understand Him.

Disciple: That priest you were talking with last night is a good example. He said to you, "Let us go on to higher topics. We've been talking so long about meat-eating."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Disciple: You said, "Well, if you are sinful, it is useless to go on to a higher topic."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. This very fact is stressed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam [10.1.4]:

nivrtta-tarñair upagayamanad
bhavauñadhäc chrotra-mano-’bhiramat
ka uttamasloka-gunanuvadat
puman virajyeta vina pasughnat

"Everyone can understand the Supreme Truth, except the rascals who are meat-eaters." Vina pasughnat: "except those who eat meat." Vina means "except," pasu means "animals," and ghnat means "a killer."
And so Lord Jesus Christ reaffirmed the Biblical commandment "Thou shalt not kill." You see, these so-called followers of Jesus Christ were killers from the very beginning. And despite the order of Christ, still they are continuing their killing to this day. But vina pasughnat: whatever seemingly pious things they may do, those who are animal killers, meat-eaters, can never understand God. It is simply not possible.
These pseudo religious people think, "We are doing very good work, philanthropic work, godly work. We are opening hospitals, building highways, feeding the hungry, and so on. So, what is the difference if we maintain the slaughterhouses and kill fifteen million animals a day? Of course, for some reason that we don't understand, every now and then we end up in ghastly wars wherein we slaughter ourselves and others. But we are happy."
These pseudo religionists also pride themselves on their huge buildings, their big skyscrapers and big factories. But all of this is duskrti—industrious rascaldom—because it is meant only for committing sinful activities, that's all. "Yes," they will say, "we are only after wine, women, gambling, and meat-eating—but we are civilized."

Disciple: Recently one of your disciples visited Butler, Pennsylvania. While he was there he met a priest who said, "Oh, yes, I remember your spiritual master. In 1965 he was here. He'd just come from India, and he was giving lectures in our church."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Upon arriving in America, I gave lectures in churches. And what is a church? A church is a place where there are God-conscious persons. So I never criticized a church or mosque. Never. Because whatever the group may be, the main thing is, they are God-conscious—and so they are good.
But when they disobey the Lord's commandments, then I must criticize. Still, I criticize only these rascals—those who set the pattern, those who disobey the commandments out of sheer stubbornness. Otherwise, we have no criticism of them. We have no problem.

Disciple: We're not sectarian.

Srila Prabhupada: Why should we be? God is one. Why should we be sectarian? Each person, according to his own particular cultural background and circumstances, is praying to God. That is one of the forms of bhakti, devotional service to God.

Disciple: Many of the young people now—they may look to the Bible for instruction, but they stay away from the priests and ministers. They feel they're hypocritical.

Srila Prabhupada: They are hypocritical. Simply hypocritical. These priests and ministers—all of them are hypocritical. Getting big fat salaries, drinking wine, and eating killed animals. And when you remind them, "Thou shalt not kill," they say, "let us go on to higher topics."
These pseudo Christians are such rascals. They conjecture Jesus Christ may have eaten fish. Even if it were true—after all, there was little or no other food available at the time. But these rascals think, "Jesus Christ ate fish. Therefore let us maintain big slaughterhouses."
In Bengal they have a story about a man who saw a mosquito and said, "Bring a cannon."

Disciple: So then do Christians still need people to give them spiritual guidance?

Srila Prabhupada: Surely. Their priests and ministers do not, cannot, guide and uplift them. The priests and ministers are themselves fallen.
Otherwise, the Christian religion is very nice—if simply the people have spiritual guides who help them to follow it perfectly.
So many people have asked me, "Do you value Christianity?"
"Yes, I say. "If you faithfully follow your Christian religion, you will become perfect."
So all over the world, people need spiritual guides who can demonstrate, based on God-conscious scripture, how to love God.

[pilgrim]

People, i have listened and seen this Prabhupada Swami Pastrami.

He blinks with his eyes a lot.
He does not sit with spine erect.
His teachings are trapped in dualism.
His eyes are not cristal clear white.
His eyes have no twinkle in them.

Enlightenment is not present within this Swami Pastrami. I am sorry!

Fearlessness, purification of one's existence, cultivation of spiritual knowledge, charity, self-control, performance of sacrifice, study of the Vedas, austerity and simplicity; nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger; renunciation, tranquility, aversion to faultfinding, compassion and freedom from covetousness; gentleness, modesty and steady determination; vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, freedom from envy and the passion for honor--these transcendental qualities belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.
Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance--these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature.
The transcendental qualities are conducive to liberation, whereas the demoniac qualities make for bondage. (Bhagavad-gita 16.1-5)

The Divine & Demoniac Natures:
http://www.asitis.com/16/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A sadhu (pure devotee of Krishna) is tolerant merciful and friendly to all living entities. He has no enemies he is peaceful he abides by the scriptures and all his characteristics are sublime. His concern is to enlighten people in devotional service; that is his mercy. He knows that without devotional service life is spoiled. A devotee travels all over the country from door to door preaching Be Krishna conscious. Be a devotee of Lord Krishna. Don't spoil your life in simply fulfilling your animal propensities. Human life is meant for self realization, or Krishna consciousness. These are the preachings of a sadhu. He is not satisfied with his own liberation. He always thinks about others. He is the most compassionate personality toward all fallen souls.

While engaged in preaching work he has to meet with so many opposing elements and therefore the sadhu has to be very tolerant. Someone may ill-treat him because the conditioned souls are not prepared to receive the transcendental knowledge of devotional service. They don't like it; that is their disease. The sadhu has the thankless task of impressing upon them the importance of devotional service. Sometimes devotees are personally attacked with violence. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified Haridasa Thakura was cained in twenty-two market places and Lord Caitanya's principal assistant Nityananda was violently attacked by Jagai and Madhai. But still they were tolerant because their mission was to deliver fallen souls.

A sadhu does not create enemies. If there are enemies they become envious out of their own character not out of any provocation on the part of a sadhu. A sadhu simply teaches My dear human being, my dear friend, just surrender to Krishna. Enemies arise due to man's envious nature. Canakya Pandit says that there are two envious animals - serpents and men. Although you may be faultless either may kill you. Of the two Canakya Pandit says that the envious man is more dangerous because a serpent can be subdued by chanting a mantra or some herbs but an envious man cannot be subdued. In Kali-yuga practically everyone is envious but we have to tolerate this.

[paganus]

interesting given what DI says,that it mentions only 'snakes' and humans as being capable of envy...

[octopusrex]

I wonder what Tich Nat Han would say about Prahbupad and what Prahbupad would say about Tich Nat Han.

Zen and Vaisnavism are NOT adversaries. A true Vaisnava understands that Budha came to help Vaisnavas fulfill their vows.

Try OIDA.

[mariag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWYGEM19cUk&feature=related

[cataleptik]

I dont trust anything that comes out of India besides The Buddha! MMMM, maybe i am racist! ;)

No , really, look at what this Hinduism brought India.........caste and the people have been enslaved by those evil wannabe goodguys named Brahmins.

I say NAY to Hinduism, a HUGE NAY!

i have found that the Buddha would never have come to be
if the philosophy of the vedic impersonalists had not been SO harshly impersonal that people needed some relief, it was utterly lacking in compassion. as late as the last couple of years, some people after the tsunamis were denied blankets and fresh water, people gave as their excuse the colour of their skin. all that comes from the Bhag. Git, thousands of years before Prabhupada's "chant and grow old and ugly."

Buddhism is different, and it does seem as if Vaisnava impersonalists have since Buddha's appearance struggled to paint a picture that Buddha "belonged to them all along" - which is a lie.

i saw a copy of Bhag. Git where "Krishna" claimed to be The Lord of Lies.

Hitler DID get his inspiration from the Vedic mysticism of impersonalism and caste, and people try to downplay it -- but it is still practiced today.

study of the HISTORY can lead all the way back to

the year 1469 A.D. and tumultuous wars and invasions.

-
i was mildly surprised to find that Hindu nationals had revisionists just like Nazis who attempt to tell a revised history of the events leading to world war two. Archaeologists agree that there was a culture developing in the Northern Part of the Indian Subcontinent that was fallen upon by ancient warriors, people in "Mohenjo Daro" and "Harappa."

the invaders killed and killed and killed. i guess if i killed everyone who said i was not righteous, five thousand years later I might be called righteous by all but a few as well.

as far as the reptilian connection: there are many pictures of vedic "deities" reclining with serpents. i have heard a lot of rationalizations as to WHY there are serpent images there.

I believe that it has EVERYTHING to do with the Legendary figure
"Lucifer" from judeo christian mythology and legends, and that we all have a lot to learn about Mr. Bush and his grandfather. thank you goodnight!

[cataleptik]

Hindu Scriptural Quotes on WomenAn anthology of sacred quotes from Hinduism on women.A wife, obedient to her husband, renowned, light-footed, eloquent in speech, sympathetic to the patients, attains to happiness when she lives peacefully with her husband, and nicely cooks the food highly efficacious, and grown through rain, conducive to our physical growth, brought daily in use, and relished by our ancestors. Yajur Veda Chapter XXXIII, Verse 59


Rama (addressing Bharata) said: "Do you keep your womenfolk pacified? Are they duly protected by you? I hope you do not repose excessive faith in them and do not confide your secrets to them." Valmiki Ramayana Ayodhya Kanda, 100.49


Krishna said: "For, taking refuge in Me, they also who, O Arjuna, may be of sinful birth--women, vaisyas as well as sudras--attain the Supreme Goal." Bhagavad Gita, Ch.9, Verse 32

[Commentary by Swami Shivananda, Rishikesh:
"........Women and Sudras are debarred by social rules from the study of the Vedas. ...."]


Men must make their women dependent day and night, and keep under their own control those who are attached to sensory objects. Her father guards her in childhood, her husband guards her in youth, and her sons guard her in old age. A woman is not fit for independence. Manusmriti 9.2-3


They (women) make a lie appear as truth, and a truth appear as a lie. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XXXIX


Addressing Shakuntala, Dushmanta said:
"Women generally speak untruth" The Mahabharata Adi Parva, Section LXXIV


Yudhishthira (addressing Bhishma) said:
Women in particular, the Rishis have said, are false in behaviour. Women in particular have been declared in the ordinances to be false. In the very Vedas one may read that women are false. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XIX


Women do not care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age; (thinking), '(It is enough that) he is a man,' they give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this (world). Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them. (When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct. For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood (itself), that is a fixed rule. Manusmriti 9.14-18


For women there is no ornament more valuable than their husbands. Valmiki Ramayana Sunder Kanda, 16-26


A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father's house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong. Vishnusmriti 24.41


"Lord Indra himself has said, 'The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.' " Rig Veda 8.33.17


Sage Ashtavakra said:
Women can never be their own mistresses. This is the opinion of the Creator himself, viz., that a woman never deserves to be independent. There is not a single woman in the three worlds that deserves to be regarded as the mistress of her own self. The father protects her while she is a maiden. The husband protects her while she is in youth. Sons protect her when she is aged. Women can never be independent as long as they live. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XX


Even if destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife. Manusmriti 5.154


After the death of her husband, a woman should preserve her chastity or ascend the pyre after him. Vishnusmriti 25.14


Arjuna said:
When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krishna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrishni, comes unwanted progeny. Bhagavad Gita, Ch.1, Verse 40


Women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man. Krishna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 6.5.8.2 (http://6.5.8.2/)


Rama said:
For a (married) woman, so long as she is alive, her husband indeed is her deity as well as her lord. ... Nay, that woman who, though extremely noble and keenly devoted to sacred observances and fasts, does not serve her husband, is sure to attain the destiny of a sinner. Through service to one's husband (on the other hand) even that woman who does not offer salutations (to anyone other than her husband) and is averse to the worship of gods secures the highest heaven. Intent on doing that which is pleasing and good to her husband, a (married) woman should, therefore do service to him alone: this is the lasting duty enjoined on a woman in the Vedas as well as in the Smrti texts. Valmiki Ramayana Ayodhya Kanda, 24


Sita said:
In the case of women neither father nor son nor their own body nor mother nor their female companions serve as an asylum here or hereafter. The husband alone is their refuge at all times. Valmiki Ramayana Ayodhya Kanda, 27.6


Addressing sage Ashtavakra, the old Lady said:
The very deities of wind and fire and water, or the other celestials, O regenerate one, are not so agreeable to women as the deity of desire. Verily, women are exceedingly fond of sexual congress. Among a thousand women, or perhaps, among hundreds of thousands, sometimes only one may be found that is devoted to her husband. When under the influence of desire, they care not for family or father or mother or brother or husband or sons or husband's brother, but pursue the way that desire points out. ...Verily, in pursuit of what they consider happiness, they destroy the family to which they belong by birth or marriage, even as many queenly rivers eat away the banks that contain them. Even women that are aged are tortured by the desire of sexual union. The Creator himself had said this, quickly marking the faults of women. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XIX & XXI


One thing mixed with another should not be sold, nor anything that is spoiled, deficient, far away, or concealed. If one girl is shown but another is given to the bridegroom, he may marry both of them for the single bride-price; that is what Manu says. Manusmriti 8.203-204


Lakshmana (addressing Sita) said:
It is the nature of women all over the world to be vicious, fickle, and sharp-tongued and to sow seeds of dissension. Valmiki Ramayana Aranya Kanda, 45.29


A woman who has been unchaste should worship Siva in his calm aspect, Siva who is Kama. Then she should summon a Brahmin and give herself to him, thinking, 'This is Kama who has come for the sake of sexual pleasure.' And whatever the Brahmin wishes, the sensuous woman should do. For thirteen months she should honour in this way any Brahmin who comes to the house for the sake of sexual pleasures, and there is no immorality in this for noble ladies or prostitutes. Matsya Purana 70.40-60 (cf. Mahabharata III, 2.23)


A discarded wife is one who has no son. ... For a wife that is without a son, is possessed with Nirriti (destruction, calamity). Shatapatha Brahmana 5.3.1.13 (http://5.3.1.13/)


It is the nature of women to seduce men in this (world); for that reason the wise are never unguarded in (the company of) females. For women are able to lead astray in (this) world not only a fool, but even a learned man, and (to make) him a slave of desire and anger. One should not sit in a lonely place with one's mother, sister, or daughter; for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man. Manusmriti 2.213-215


A union of a twice-born man with a Sudra wife can never produce religious merit; it is from carnal desire only that he marries her, being blinded by lust. Men of the three first castes, who through folly marry a woman of the lowest caste, quickly degrade their families and progeny to the state of Sudras. If his oblations to the gods and manes and (his hospitable attentions) to guests are offered principally through her (a Sudra wife's) hands, the gods and manes (and the guests) will not eat such offerings, and he will not go to heaven. Vishnusmriti 26.5-7


And whilst not coming into contact with Sudras and remains of food; for this Gharma is he that shines yonder, and he is excellence, truth, and light; but woman, the Sudra, the dog, and the crow, are untruth: he should not look at these, lest he should mingle excellence and sin, light and darkness, truth and untruth. Shatapatha Brahmana 14.1.1.31 (http://14.1.1.31/)


Ansuya (Rishi Atri's wife) said to Sita:
"A woman is impure by her very birth; but she attains a happy state by serving her lord (husband)". Tulasi Ramayana Aranya Kanda, 5 A-B


Bhishma said:
Women have one eternal duty in this world, viz., dependence upon and obedient service to their husbands, and as such, this one duty constitutes their only end. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section LIX

[octopusrex]

Every religion needs a reformer now and then.

Maya is a woman.

Siva makes thinking about religion difficult because.. he blows up everything.

[cataleptik]

Every religion needs a reformer now and then.

Maya is a woman.

Siva makes thinking about religion difficult because.. he blows up everything.

"Maya" seems to belong to different families, encompassing Greek Hellenic as well as Meso american, Egyptian and the philosophies of the Dravidian subcontinent. I find myself wondering if the deity Siva has not been LIED ABOUT repeatedly through history, for the stupefying reasons men have classically lied about religion, to gain an upper hand through deception. I have a image in my mind of the deity Shiva as a naked trancendentalist who simply observes the changes of time and the actions of various beings, without destroying much at all.

it is my theory that the asteroid belt represents a destroyed planet, destroyed by wars earlier on in the development of this solar system - and that "things" have overwritten what has been called 'the akash' or 'the akashic record' precisely for the purpose of ruling people by way of deception, for the purpose of keeping people equating a full knowledge of their spiritual history with death.

but i am not sure. it's not the sort of thing you can find in Encyclopedia Britainnica...i wonder if you or anyone else has seen anything that what I have said above reminds them of?


i read the Urantia Book a lot, haven't read it all, and there's a lot at alienshift that i am yet to skim. billy meier and linda goodman are huge influences too...

[pilgrim]

"Maya" seems to belong to different families, encompassing Greek Hellenic as well as Meso american, Egyptian and the philosophies of the Dravidian subcontinent. I find myself wondering if the deity Siva has not been LIED ABOUT repeatedly through history, for the stupefying reasons men have classically lied about religion, to gain an upper hand through deception. I have a image in my mind of the deity Shiva as a naked trancendentalist who simply observes the changes of time and the actions of various beings, without destroying much at all.

Maya is a Sanskrit word which means "that which is not". It refers to the illusiory nature of the 5 sense world of "the matrix".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSyuNjcfL4c

[cataleptik]

An old lie.

[octopusrex]

A new Mayan Empire.

Hmmm.

[pilgrim]

Vaishnavas (devotees of Krishna) are NOT Impersonalists.
Srila Prabhupada made this very clear in all of his books & teachings.

David Icke on the other hand IS an Impersonalist. His concept of merging into an ocean of "Infinite Love" is not new. It is from the Sanskrit Vedas where it is referred to as the Brahmajyoti (the spiritual light emanating from the Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual world).

"The Mayavadi (Impersonalist) philosophy is veiled Buddhism." In other words, the voidist philosophy of Buddha is more or less repeated in the Mayavadi philosophy of impersonalism, although the Mayavadi philosophy claims to be directed by the Vedic conclusions. Lord Siva, however, admits that this philosophy is manufactured by him in the age of Kali in order to mislead the atheists. "Actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead has His transcendental body," Lord Siva states. "But I describe the Supreme as impersonal. I also explain the Vedanta-sutra according to the same principles of Mayavadi philosophy." (Teachings of Lord Caitanya)

----------------------------------------------------

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.5.4

TRANSLATION

O Lord, persons who, because of their serious attitude, attain the stage of enlightened devotional service achieve the complete meaning of renunciation and knowledge and attain the Vaikunthaloka in the spiritual sky simply by drinking the nectar of Your topics.

PURPORT

The difference between the impersonalistic mental speculators and the pure devotees of the Lord is that the former pass through a miserable understanding of the Absolute Truth at every stage, whereas the devotees enter into the kingdom of all pleasures even from the beginning of their attempt. The devotee has only to hear about devotional activities, which are as simple as anything in ordinary life, and he also acts very simply, whereas the mental speculator has to pass through a jugglery of words, which are partially facts and partially a make-show for the maintenance of an artificial impersonal status. In spite of his strenuous efforts to attain perfect knowledge, the impersonalist attains merging into the impersonal oneness of the brahmajyoti of the Lord, which is also attained by the enemies of the Lord simply because of their being killed by Him. The devotees, however, attain to the highest stage of knowledge and renunciation and achieve the Vaikunthalokas, the planets in the spiritual sky. The impersonalist attains only the sky, and does not achieve any tangible transcendental bliss, whereas the devotee attains to the planets where real spiritual life prevails. With a serious attitude, the devotee throws away all achievements like so much dust, and he accepts only devotional service, the transcendental culmination.

[pilgrim]

An old lie.

It is not a LIE, it is FACT. Even Wikipedia knows it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)

In Advaita Vedanta philosophy, Maya is the limited, purely physical and mental reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled. Maya is held to be an illusion, a veiling of the true, unitary Self — the Cosmic Spirit also known as Brahman. The concept of Maya was expounded in the Hindu scriptures known as the Upanishads. Many philosophies or religions seek to "pierce the veil" of Maya in order to glimpse the transcendent truth, from which the illusion of a physical reality springs, drawing from the idea that first came to life in the Hindu stream of Vedanta. Maya is neither true nor untrue. Since Brahman is the only truth, Maya cannot be true. Since Maya causes the material world to be seen, it cannot be untrue. Hence, Maya is described as indescribable. She has two principle functions — one is to veil Brahman and obscure and conceal it from our consciousness. The other is to present and promulgate the material world and the veil of duality instead of Brahman. The veil of Maya is piercable and with dilligence and grace, may be permanently rent. Consider an illusion of a rope being confused as a snake in the darkness. Just as this illusion gets destroyed when true knowledge of the rope is perceived, similarly, Maya gets destroyed for a person when they perceive Brahman with transendental knowledge. A metaphor is also given — when the reflection of Brahman falls on Maya, Brahman appears as God (the Supreme Lord). Pragmatically, where the duality of the world is regarded as true, Maya becomes the divine magical power of the Supreme Lord. Maya is the veritable fabric of duality and she performs this role at the behest of the Supreme Lord. God is not bound by Maya, just as a magician is not illusioned and deluded by their own magic.
(from Wikipedia)

[pilgrim]

Even Sankara, India's Greatest Impersonalist Meditated on Lord Krishna and the Bhagavad Gita!:

Salutations to that supreme shining one
Whom the creator Brahma, Varuna,
Indra, Rudra, Marut, and all divine beings
Praise with hymns,
Whose glories are sung
By the verses of the Vedas,
Of whom the singers of Sama sing
And of whose glories the Upanisads
Proclaim in full choir,
Whom the yogis see
With their minds absorbed
In perfect meditation,
And of whom all the hosts
Of gods and demons
Know not the limitations.
To Him, the Supreme God, Krsna, be all salutations--
Him we salute! Him we salute! Him we salute!


Purport by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

By recitation of the ninth verse of his meditation, quoted from the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sankara has indicated that Lord Krsna is worshipable by one and all, including himself. He gives hints to materialists, impersonalists, mental speculators, "void" philosophers, and all other candidates subjected to the punishment of material miseries--just offer salutations to Lord Krsna, who is worshiped by Brahma, Siva, Varuna, Indra, and all other demigods. He has not mentioned, however, the name of Visnu, because Visnu is identical with Krsna. The Vedas and the Upanisads are meant for understanding the process by which one can surrender unto Krsna. The yogis try to see Him (Krsna) within themselves by meditation. In other words, it is for all the demigods and demons who do not know where the ultimate end is that Sankara teaches, and he especially instructs the demons and the fools to offer salutations to Krsna and His words, the Bhagavad-gita, by following in his footsteps. Only by such acts will the demons be benefited, not by misleading their innocent followers by so-called mental speculations or show-bottle meditations. Sankara directly offers salutations to Krsna, as if to show the fools, who are searching after light, that here ls light like the sun. But the fallen demons are like owls that will not open their eyes on account of their fear of the sunlight itself. These owls will never open their eyes to see the sublime light of Krsna and His words the Bhagavad-gita. They will, however, comment on the Gita with their closed owl-eyes to mislead their unfortunate readers and followers. Sankara, however, discloses the light to his less intelligent followers and shows that the Bhagavad-gita and Krsna are the only source of light. This is all to teach the sincere seekers of truth to offer salutation to Lord Krsna and thus surrender unto Him without misgivings. That is the highest perfection of life, and that is the highest teaching of Sankara, the great learned scholar whose teachings drove the voidist philosophy of Buddha out of India, the land of knowledge. Om tat sat.

More Here:
http://india.krishna.org/Articles/2000/09/00116.html

[intruder]

I've read Prabuphada's translation of the Gita as well as other works translated by him. Also....they serve GREAT vegatarian dinners at any ISKCON temple.Also, the scent of Sandalwood burning can be intoxicating. If you feel it necessary to chant the Maha-Mantra while keeping count on Japa beads....DO it. I must admit, there were times at the ISKCON centre in Toronto when I had a direct KNOWING that ultimately this is NOT for me. I'll never forget this one soul standing before an icon of Krishna and repeating the Maha-Mantra at a furious pace...It was as if he was thinking, "just ONE more round...just ONE more and maybe the great awakening will take place!!!" I used to enjoy periodic conversations with the head of the temple who was raised Roman Catholic and converted to Krishna consciousness. He had a strong desire to "initiate" me but I declined. These ideologies have served their purpose in my opinion, but there will always be folks who need this kind of thing. The trappings remain the same as they do within Roman Catholicism...but with less guilt.


To be honest, why not give Tony Parson's "AS IT IS" a read?

[pilgrim]

I must admit, there were times at the ISKCON centre in Toronto when I had a direct KNOWING that ultimately this is NOT for me... I used to enjoy periodic conversations with the head of the temple who was raised Roman Catholic and converted to Krishna consciousness. He had a strong desire to "initiate" me but I declined.
Although i practice the Hare Krishna philosophy, i avoid ISKCON, which has been hijacked by gangsters posing as gurus. I am actually officially banned from ISKCON temples (stolen from Prabhupada) because of my "bean-spilling". I cannot find fault with Srila Prabhupada or his original teachings though.

[octopusrex]

Iskon has "copyrighted" the Gita.

This is a serious sacrilage.

[pilgrim]

Iskon has "copyrighted" the Gita.

This is a serious sacrilage.

From a Srila Prabhupada letter 1969:
"Although I have brought this Sankirtana Movement to the Western World we cannot make it copyrighted. The Sankirtana Movement is not my invention. So how can it be copyrighted? Besides that, the chanting of Hare Krishna is going on since time immemorial. So Hare Krishna cannot be copyrighted, don't be misled that the chanting of Hare Krishna or Lord Caitanya's Movement can be made copyrighted?"

[octopusrex]

"...by their fruits...".

Abuse of power is one of the great dangers of istitucionalized religion. Certainly, if one has God on his side, he will vanquish such foes easily.

Christ-Consciousness is all about finding and destroying "false" religion.

[pilgrim]

This is for all those who mistakenly think that Krishna Consciousness is Hinduism, Impersonalist & supportive of the perverted caste system.

Krsna Consciousness: Hindu Cult or Divine Culture?

When attempting to place the Krsna consciousness movement within a convenient historical-cultural context, many people identify the movement with Hinduism. But this is misleading. Srila Prabhupada disavows connection with the pantheism, polytheism, and caste consciousness that pervades modern Hinduism. Although Krsna consciousness and modern Hinduism share a common historical root--India's ancient Vedic culture--Hinduism has become, along with the other "great religions," a sectarian establishment, whereas Krsna consciousness is universal and transcends relative, sectarian designations.

There is a misconception that the Krsna consciousness movement represents the Hindu religion. In fact, however, Krsna consciousness is in no way a faith or religion that seeks to defeat other faiths or religions. Rather, it is an essential cultural movement for the entire human society and does not consider any particular sectarian faith. This cultural movement is especially meant to educate people in how they can love God.

Sometimes Indians both inside and outside of India think that we are preaching the Hindu religion, but actually we are not. One will not find the word Hindu in the Bhagavad-gita. Indeed, there is no such word as Hindu in the entire Vedic literature. This word has been introduced by the Muslims from provinces next to India, such as Afghanistan, Baluchistan, and Persia. There is a river called Sindhu bordering the north western provinces of India, and since the Muslims there could not pronounce Sindhu properly, they instead called the river Hindu, and the inhabitants of this tract of land they called Hindus. In India, according to the Vedic language, the Europeans are called mlecchas or yavanas. Similarly, Hindu is a name given by the Muslims.

India's actual culture is described in the Bhagavad-gita, where it is stated that according to the different qualities or modes of nature there are different types of men, who are generally classified into four social orders and four spiritual orders. This system of social and spiritual division is known as varnasrama-dharma. The four varnas, or social orders, are brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya. and sudra. The four asramas, or spiritual orders, are brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa. The varnasrama system is described in the Vedic scriptures known as the Puranas. The goal of this institution of Vedic culture is to educate every man for advancement in knowledge of Krsna, or God. That is the entire Vedic program.

When Lord Caitanya talked with the great devotee Ramananda Raya, the Lord asked him, "What is the basic principle of human life?" Ramananda Raya answered that human civilization begins when varnasrama-dharma is accepted. Before coming to the standard of varnasrama-dharma there is no question of human civilization. Therefore, the Krsna consciousness movement is trying to establish this right system of human civilization, which is known as Krsna consciousness, or daiva-varnasrama--divine culture.

In India, the varnasrama system has now been taken in a perverted way, and thus a man born in the family of a brahmana (the highest social order) claims that he should be accepted as a brahmana. But this claim is not accepted by the sastra (scripture). One's forefather may have been a brahmana according to gotra, or the family hereditary order, but real varnasrama-dharma (caste-system) is based on the factual quality one has attained, regardless of birth or heredity. Therefore, we are not preaching the present-day system of the Hindus, especially those who are under the influence of Sankaracarya, for Sankaracarya taught that the Absolute Truth is impersonal, and thus he indirectly denied the existence of God.

http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_expose/what_kc/kc_hin.htm

[octopusrex]

We are here to help!

In fact, sorting out the sheep from the goats,
the weeds from the wheat...
This sorting out is the way out of the matrix.

It is not enough to be born twice.
One needs to be born 3 times...
To be a true Aryan.

Dark Brahmins rule the world.
Corrupted by their desire nature.
In the Age of Kali, Kali worship is the true path.

Eat some peyote.
Smoke some weed.
Or take a cold shower and chant Hare Krsna!

[cataleptik]

why don't one of you krishna-chaitanya slaves go and get one of those pictures of chaitanya relaxing with snakes. they disgust me.

but you know, they disgust me enough to do it.

but in his battlefield manual of KURUK-SET-RA (of note to Egypt fans, and this planet is one where many deity systems exist, including the Egyptian one, the root of the Christian) your Chaitanya Mahaprabhu explains how he is the Lord of Decievers and can decieve any "MAN". I read it holding my nose trying to figure out Hitler. I am sure that, decieved and brainwashed you will explain off Hitler in some way. But the ORIGINAL Brahman priests were racists. Were murderers (you might euphemize them as warriors.) They despised women in a way very similar to the hatred of women expressed in Plato's Greece. And --

well, YOU explain Hitler then. What was Hitler's fascination with Vedic cosmology and "religion"? How can you possibly still say that it's good -- and yet try to place all the crimes against humanity based on race outside of the whole history of it?

It all actually points to invasion by ancient Reptilian astronauts, and I think that you will in a Nazi or Totalitarian fashion repeat that it will all be okay if we just DO AS YOU SAY and WORSHIP as you say. And then I guess it will be allright to persecute non whites. It's rough with brainwashed people. They have been conditioned to believe something, and what you believe in decieved all of Germany, leading to a terrible war, Holocaust and the bombing of Dresden and other places in Germany. And right now the American president is keeping a Nazi secret, which he needs mental conditioning devices to enslave those who might otherwise speak out. Do you think that's beautiful? Are there soap bubbles coming out of your ears?

[cataleptik]

http://deshika.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/vishnu-and-ananta.gif

[cataleptik]

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Hindu Scriptural Quotes on WomenAn anthology of sacred quotes from Hinduism on women.A wife, obedient to her husband, renowned, light-footed, eloquent in speech, sympathetic to the patients, attains to happiness when she lives peacefully with her husband, and nicely cooks the food highly efficacious, and grown through rain, conducive to our physical growth, brought daily in use, and relished by our ancestors. Yajur Veda Chapter XXXIII, Verse 59


Rama (addressing Bharata) said: "Do you keep your womenfolk pacified? Are they duly protected by you? I hope you do not repose excessive faith in them and do not confide your secrets to them." Valmiki Ramayana Ayodhya Kanda, 100.49


Krishna said: "For, taking refuge in Me, they also who, O Arjuna, may be of sinful birth--women, vaisyas as well as sudras--attain the Supreme Goal." Bhagavad Gita, Ch.9, Verse 32

[Commentary by Swami Shivananda, Rishikesh:
"........Women and Sudras are debarred by social rules from the study of the Vedas. ...."]


Men must make their women dependent day and night, and keep under their own control those who are attached to sensory objects. Her father guards her in childhood, her husband guards her in youth, and her sons guard her in old age. A woman is not fit for independence. Manusmriti 9.2-3


They (women) make a lie appear as truth, and a truth appear as a lie. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XXXIX


Addressing Shakuntala, Dushmanta said:
"Women generally speak untruth" The Mahabharata Adi Parva, Section LXXIV


Yudhishthira (addressing Bhishma) said:
Women in particular, the Rishis have said, are false in behaviour. Women in particular have been declared in the ordinances to be false. In the very Vedas one may read that women are false. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XIX


Women do not care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age; (thinking), '(It is enough that) he is a man,' they give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this (world). Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them. (When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct. For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood (itself), that is a fixed rule. Manusmriti 9.14-18


For women there is no ornament more valuable than their husbands. Valmiki Ramayana Sunder Kanda, 16-26


A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father's house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong. Vishnusmriti 24.41


"Lord Indra himself has said, 'The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.' " Rig Veda 8.33.17


Sage Ashtavakra said:
Women can never be their own mistresses. This is the opinion of the Creator himself, viz., that a woman never deserves to be independent. There is not a single woman in the three worlds that deserves to be regarded as the mistress of her own self. The father protects her while she is a maiden. The husband protects her while she is in youth. Sons protect her when she is aged. Women can never be independent as long as they live. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XX


Even if destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife. Manusmriti 5.154


After the death of her husband, a woman should preserve her chastity or ascend the pyre after him. Vishnusmriti 25.14


Arjuna said:
When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krishna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrishni, comes unwanted progeny. Bhagavad Gita, Ch.1, Verse 40


Women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man. Krishna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 6.5.8.2 (http://6.5.8.2/)


Rama said:
For a (married) woman, so long as she is alive, her husband indeed is her deity as well as her lord. ... Nay, that woman who, though extremely noble and keenly devoted to sacred observances and fasts, does not serve her husband, is sure to attain the destiny of a sinner. Through service to one's husband (on the other hand) even that woman who does not offer salutations (to anyone other than her husband) and is averse to the worship of gods secures the highest heaven. Intent on doing that which is pleasing and good to her husband, a (married) woman should, therefore do service to him alone: this is the lasting duty enjoined on a woman in the Vedas as well as in the Smrti texts. Valmiki Ramayana Ayodhya Kanda, 24


Sita said:
In the case of women neither father nor son nor their own body nor mother nor their female companions serve as an asylum here or hereafter. The husband alone is their refuge at all times. Valmiki Ramayana Ayodhya Kanda, 27.6


Addressing sage Ashtavakra, the old Lady said:
The very deities of wind and fire and water, or the other celestials, O regenerate one, are not so agreeable to women as the deity of desire. Verily, women are exceedingly fond of sexual congress. Among a thousand women, or perhaps, among hundreds of thousands, sometimes only one may be found that is devoted to her husband. When under the influence of desire, they care not for family or father or mother or brother or husband or sons or husband's brother, but pursue the way that desire points out. ...Verily, in pursuit of what they consider happiness, they destroy the family to which they belong by birth or marriage, even as many queenly rivers eat away the banks that contain them. Even women that are aged are tortured by the desire of sexual union. The Creator himself had said this, quickly marking the faults of women. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section XIX & XXI


One thing mixed with another should not be sold, nor anything that is spoiled, deficient, far away, or concealed. If one girl is shown but another is given to the bridegroom, he may marry both of them for the single bride-price; that is what Manu says. Manusmriti 8.203-204


Lakshmana (addressing Sita) said:
It is the nature of women all over the world to be vicious, fickle, and sharp-tongued and to sow seeds of dissension. Valmiki Ramayana Aranya Kanda, 45.29


A woman who has been unchaste should worship Siva in his calm aspect, Siva who is Kama. Then she should summon a Brahmin and give herself to him, thinking, 'This is Kama who has come for the sake of sexual pleasure.' And whatever the Brahmin wishes, the sensuous woman should do. For thirteen months she should honour in this way any Brahmin who comes to the house for the sake of sexual pleasures, and there is no immorality in this for noble ladies or prostitutes. Matsya Purana 70.40-60 (cf. Mahabharata III, 2.23)


A discarded wife is one who has no son. ... For a wife that is without a son, is possessed with Nirriti (destruction, calamity). Shatapatha Brahmana 5.3.1.13 (http://5.3.1.13/)


It is the nature of women to seduce men in this (world); for that reason the wise are never unguarded in (the company of) females. For women are able to lead astray in (this) world not only a fool, but even a learned man, and (to make) him a slave of desire and anger. One should not sit in a lonely place with one's mother, sister, or daughter; for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man. Manusmriti 2.213-215


A union of a twice-born man with a Sudra wife can never produce religious merit; it is from carnal desire only that he marries her, being blinded by lust. Men of the three first castes, who through folly marry a woman of the lowest caste, quickly degrade their families and progeny to the state of Sudras. If his oblations to the gods and manes and (his hospitable attentions) to guests are offered principally through her (a Sudra wife's) hands, the gods and manes (and the guests) will not eat such offerings, and he will not go to heaven. Vishnusmriti 26.5-7


And whilst not coming into contact with Sudras and remains of food; for this Gharma is he that shines yonder, and he is excellence, truth, and light; but woman, the Sudra, the dog, and the crow, are untruth: he should not look at these, lest he should mingle excellence and sin, light and darkness, truth and untruth. Shatapatha Brahmana 14.1.1.31 (http://14.1.1.31/)


Ansuya (Rishi Atri's wife) said to Sita:
"A woman is impure by her very birth; but she attains a happy state by serving her lord (husband)". Tulasi Ramayana Aranya Kanda, 5 A-B


Bhishma said:
Women have one eternal duty in this world, viz., dependence upon and obedient service to their husbands, and as such, this one duty constitutes their only end. The Mahabharata Anusasana Parva, Section LIX

[cataleptik]

while you, being fooled, get off on chanting control phrases designed to enslave and condition, as recently as the huge tidal wave disaster (not a tsunami as it was tectonically, not climactically caused) people who needed water and blankets were DENIED that because of the colour of their skin.

i think that a brave and wise person admits that they have been decieved and makes changes, the sort of robotic people who lie for bush who are despised go on telling the same old religious lies when they have had their noses rubbed in what they have been worshipping. So you like Hitler, huh?

(leaves.)

[cataleptik]

this is how Hitler decieved Germany. Blavatsky (Isis Unveiled) was also decieved. If you REALLY do your research instead of looking for a religious quick fix you will find in the Urantia Book that what you think is "righteous" is connected to something else entirely sinister, something unloving that decieves people into forgetting that there is one human race and has caused stupid wars and misery for centuries.

i'm off this thread, it disgusts me. don't write me personally for clarification.

it is not zen, what you are doing.

[pilgrim]

...YAAAWWNN...

Bye, bye Cataleptik, can't say i'll miss you or your uninformed, speculative babbling.
You really don't know anything about Krsna Consciousness and i guess you just want to stay ignorant.

PS: Thanks for posting the nice picture of Lord Vishnu.

[kasalt]

why don't one of you krishna-chaitanya slaves go and get one of those pictures of chaitanya relaxing with snakes. they disgust me.


Here are some quotes you might be interested in reading, considering your disgust for snakes:

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.9.14:
Since even saintly persons take pleasure in the killing of a scorpion or a snake, all the worlds have achieved great satisfaction because of the death of this demon. - http://vedabase.net/sb/7/9/14/en

I happened to listen to a lecture by Srila Prabhupada that was given in Montreal on August 22, 1968. Srila Prabhupada was commenting on Srimad Bhagavatam 7-9-14 wherein Prahlada Maharaja is pacifying Lord Nrsimhadev. Prahlada Maharaja told Lord Nrsimhadev that he was not unhappy that his father had died because his father can be compared to a black snake. Even saintly persons are happy when scorpions and snakes are killed.

Srila Prabhupada then relates a story wherein his Spiritual Master ordered a snake to be killed. Srila Prabhupada said that until he read this verse from the Bhagavatam, it was a source of botheration for him that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wasn't merciful to the snake, but instead ordered the devotees to kill it.
...
In the lecture mentioned above, Srila Prabhupada quotes Chanakya Pandit, saying that a snake can be controlled by chanting mantras and by herbs, whereas an envious man is more dangerous than a snake because he cannot be controlled. The symptom of why a snake can and should be killed is that they'll bite someone that has done them no harm, without any notice. Simply due to their nature, they'll bite.

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-06/editorials573.htm

[pilgrim]

CATALEPTIK SAID: "why don't one of you krishna-chaitanya slaves go and get one of those pictures of chaitanya relaxing with snakes. they disgust me".

I SAY: I can't get a picture of Lord Chaitanya like that, because it never happened & such pictures dont exist!

SRILA PRABHUPADA: "So there are these SNAKE-LIKE PERSONS. They are envious about our movement, and they are opposing. That is the nature. Prahlada Maharaja also was opposed by his father, what to speak of others THESE THINGS WILL HAPPEN... HE WAS ALSO SERVED WITH POISON". (Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture Mayapur 28/02/77)

Krishna subduing Kaliya, the Naga serpent

http://www.freewebs.com/harekrishna108/Krishna%20Leela/krsnakaliya-medium.jpg

Krishna & the snake-demon Aghasura (Krishna killed him!).

http://neetikathalu.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/0065-aghaasuracalling.jpg

[octopusrex]

Ok.

Everybody hit the bong and RELAAAAXXXX...

Racism is not what it's about. It's about truth. I don't claim to know the truth, but I do have some ideas as to where to look. Certainly, if you read the Bible with knowing eyes, you will recognize lots of Brahminic thinking from Jesus. The whole "born again" thing...

We have a saying in spanish: "tiempo, lugar y circumstancia".

One argument I have ongoing with the Guru at my temple is about Peyote. Prabhupad knew nothing about Peyote not about it's rituals, not the tribes who use it, etc. Each spiritual path has it's own perils and it's own advantages. But if it is a true spiritual path, it will lead you inadvertantly to liberation. I am not here to tell you how to achieve liberation, only to share my own experiences with liberation.

You say I am not very Zen.. True. I am a Peyote Shaman.

[cataleptik]

the snake has done harm, and then lied, Ahrimanically, like a snake. like we have learned to expect from snakes. the Vaikuntha Vaisnava argument style teaches its adherents to decieve. (i am Buddhist.)

the role? relax and BE A SLAVE.
relax and allow yourself to be burned alive when your brahmin husband warrior does not come home. relax and insult people of lower classes. relax and be impersonal, deny the body (which is what aham brahmasmi means), reject the female while rejecting the physical world. we get the word "snob" from Vaisnava. We get the word "invaders" from the vedas. we get the word "industry" from Indus. all from the aryan philosophies that of course Hitler and Bush secretly worshipped - Hitler less secretly. That is what aryan means: people who swear they are born to conquer and rule the world with an elaborate system of deception. what are Isvaras? "Controller gods" that utterly deny the will.

Buddhism appeared because it embodied compassion, and The Way which includes the body and the material and the female as part of all that is, instead of the one sided, women are scum, white maleness is best attitude that inspires the klan. the aryan attitude upon being understood is : you know too much, shut up. because it is exactly focused on so many places here.

i am talking over the heads of the brainwashed converts to the other people on this thread, because it's true. Buddha would have never appeared if Impersonal Brahmanism had not been so deceptive warlike and hateful that it inspired Hitler, and pretty much all other "mystics" who take unto themselves the idea that they are fit to rule and use ethnic prejudice to dominate others.

They lie, like the idea of a "lying snake" -- Vaisnava domination over the world going all the way back to 1400 c. B. C. - always denied, revised just like the pro Nazi Holocaust revisionist.

what to do eh? i meditate, but on balance... ugh.

it's just a method of domination spreading long back, inspiring liars and little Hitlers and of course, causing people to destroy themselves "in love" with an impersonal false god called "Chaitanya" incapable of loving back. Great sickness here, and with reptilian imagery in all the ancient art.

It is definitely not zen. In fact I have heard many people say that the Vaisnava philosophy posits itself as the enemy of Buddhism probably because of the compassion for all "castes" -- the absurdity of the caste system that Buddha teaches. I don't want cardboard flowers...ugh.

[cataleptik]

Hitler didn't kill the jews. the jewes killed Hitler. Isn't that right?

The jews nailed Hitler to a swastica where he bled for nine days and runes came out of his holy anus along with sunlight which is why they call it "the Runes."

[cataleptik]

i am becoming interested in the hare krishna movement.do anyone have any info on them?


"No."

[kasalt]

the swastika philosophy has never been peaceful...not by accident Adolf Hitler used the svastica as a symbol for his movement and if you look you will find the svastica inseperable from the ISKCON. i would like to see the person who started this conversation explain the svastica.

i am Buddhist.

"In Buddhism, the swastika signifies auspiciousness and good fortune as well as the Buddha's footprints and the Buddha's heart. The swastika is said to contain the whole mind of the Buddha and can often be found imprinted on the chest, feet or palms of Buddha images. It is also the first of the 65 auspicious symbols on the footprint of the Buddha." - http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/swastika.htm

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/images/symbols/swastika-korea-cc-lance-johnson-200.jpg
Swastika on the door of a Korean temple.

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/images/symbols/swastika-wheel-taiwan-cc-hakym-200.jpg
Swastika on a Buddhist temple in Taiwan.

http://san-shin.net/images/SGS-Bogwangsa-03.JPG
Bo-gwang-sa temple in Seoul. This is a swastika inside of the circle with large white and orange dots below it, reminiscent of a traditional Korean il-wol [sun & moon] motif.


why don't one of you krishna-chaitanya slaves go and get one of those pictures of chaitanya relaxing with snakes. they disgust me.

i am Buddhist.

Well, if you are a Buddhist then perhaps you would prefer to see a photo of Buddha with snakes...

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/brass/the_serpent_muchalinda_shelters_lord_buddha_ej22.j pg

http://www.leasticoulddo.com/files/word/buddha4.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Buddha_with_Naga_(snake).jpg/584px-Buddha_with_Naga_(snake).jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laonaga.JPG
A naga guarding the Buddhist Temple of Wat Sisaket in Vientiane, Laos

i'm off this thread, it disgusts me. don't write me personally for clarification.

it is not zen, what you are doing.

You seem to be disgusted quite often.

Is that zen, what you are doing?

;)

[octopusrex]

The great thing about the internet is that all the "secret" doctrines and all the "confidential" teachings are now open for the general public.

Now Chaos seems utterly inevitable, wot?

Kasalt!!! GREAT PICS!!!!

BTW: The Hare Krsnas ARE trying to rule the world. So are the Jehova's Witnesses, Templars, Dungeons & Dragoneers, Hippies, Communists, Capitalists and just about anybody who thinks they have the "absolute truth" about everything, like Pigpot.

My advice: rule yourself first.

[pilgrim]

Originally Posted by paganus:

i am becoming interested in the hare krishna movement.do anyone have any info on them?

"No."


So why are you back on this thread, spewing your total lack of knowledge about Krishna consciousness?
You are only making a fool of yourself. The more you say, the more your ignorance is revealed!
You don't seem to know much about Buddhism either.
Look at the pics in kasalt's excellent post. Does that mean Buddha (& Buddhists, like you claim to be) are snake-loving nazis?

[octopusrex]

Or I'll put it to you this way...

If you find yourself witnessing a fight between Krsna and Siva... Or better yet, Siva and ... YHVH... for instance... The most sensible thing to do is to wait for them to finish and then bow to the winner.

[pilgrim]

Or I'll put it to you this way...

If you find yourself witnessing a fight between Krsna and Siva... Or better yet, Siva and ... YHVH... for instance... The most sensible thing to do is to wait for them to finish and then bow to the winner.

Shiva works for the benefit of everyone, and tries to help the living beings make spiritual advancement. This is why he has his own line of disciplic succession. This is also why he says to the sons of King Pracinibarhi, “Any person who is surrendered to the Supreme Personality of God, Lord Krishna, the controller of everything, is very dear to me.”

The sons of the King were going to practice austerities to worship Lord Vishnu and while searching for a suitable place happened to find Lord Shiva. His bodily luster was like molten gold, his throat was bluish, he had three eyes, and was accompanied by musicians who were glorifying him. Shiva is the protector of the pious and those of gentle behavior. So he was pleased to speak to the princes the way he did. He continued in this way:
“A person who is directly surrendered to Lord Krishna, or Vishnu, in unalloyed devotional service is immediately promoted to the spiritual planets. I, Lord Shiva, and other demigods attain these planets only after the destruction of the material world. You are all devotees of the Lord, and as such I appreciate that you are as respectable as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. I know in this way that the devotees also respect me and that I am dear to them. Thus no one can be as dear to the devotees as I am.”

[edit]

where are you from, pilgrim?

[edit]

you seem honest - yet no answer - hidding is for whom?

[pilgrim]

where are you from, pilgrim?

My present body was born in the UK, where i still live, though i have spent a bit of time in India over last year.

[edit]

thanks,.. but ,are you talking about physical body or subtil?

[pilgrim]

thanks,.. but ,are you talking about physical body or subtil?

My subtle body (mind, intelligence, ego) carried me (eternal soul, consciousness) to my present material body (earth, air, fire, water, ether).

[edit]

thanks pilgrim

about india - where were you there?

[pilgrim]

thanks pilgrim

about india - where were you there?

In 2007 i spent almost 5 months in Vrindavana, where Krishna appeared & performed his pastimes 5000 years ago:
Check it out: http://www.vaisnava.cz/clanek_en.php3?no=180

[octopusrex]

Devotees are great people. Cold showers and prasadam does that to you.

Krsna and Siva DID fight. Krsna won the battle...

[pilgrim]

Krishna consciousness DOES NOT support the hereditary Indian caste sytem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCsQDTA_0dk&feature=related

[pilgrim]

"In Buddhism, the swastika signifies auspiciousness and good fortune as well as the Buddha's footprints and the Buddha's heart. The swastika is said to contain the whole mind of the Buddha and can often be found imprinted on the chest, feet or palms of Buddha images. It is also the first of the 65 auspicious symbols on the footprint of the Buddha." - http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/swastika.htm

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/images/symbols/swastika-korea-cc-lance-johnson-200.jpg
Swastika on the door of a Korean temple.

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/images/symbols/swastika-wheel-taiwan-cc-hakym-200.jpg
Swastika on a Buddhist temple in Taiwan.

http://san-shin.net/images/SGS-Bogwangsa-03.JPG
Bo-gwang-sa temple in Seoul. This is a swastika inside of the circle with large white and orange dots below it, reminiscent of a traditional Korean il-wol [sun & moon] motif.






Well, if you are a Buddhist then perhaps you would prefer to see a photo of Buddha with snakes...

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/brass/the_serpent_muchalinda_shelters_lord_buddha_ej22.j pg

http://www.leasticoulddo.com/files/word/buddha4.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Buddha_with_Naga_(snake).jpg/584px-Buddha_with_Naga_(snake).jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laonaga.JPG
A naga guarding the Buddhist Temple of Wat Sisaket in Vientiane, Laos



You seem to be disgusted quite often.

Is that zen, what you are doing?

;)

.....The sound of silence from Cataleptik..... Very Zen.....

[octopusrex]

Pilgrim: I have some issues with your statement that Prabhupad did not support the caste system. In the Bhagavad gita as it is, he clearly does. Also, there is a few cantos of the Bhagavatam where he does. If you watch your own video carefully Prabhupad is clearly demonstrating that the caste-system exists in our modern world anyway, but it is unknown.

My opinion is that Prabhupad is old school. You gotta respect that. Not because the caste system is unpopular in Kali-Yuga is Prabhupad going to negate it's validity. That's what I mean by old school. Intelligent and rich folks know who they are and they will do everything possible to make certain their offspring will remain in their possitions of authority and power. This is simply human nature. Hence, the caste-system is natural to us and Prabhupad knew this. Trying to cover this up to be more "politically correct" is a disservice to his teachings.

But my biggest issue with ISCON and Prabhupad's movement in general has to do with his alleged murder. If ISCON and other Gurus are attempting to cover up Prabhupad's murder, then they are doing a huge disservice to him. It is the ultimate sacriledge to his name and his history. One must be a servant of the truth, and lying and covering up stuff is a disservice to that.

I have numerous other issues vs. ISCON, not the least of which is the copyrighting of Prabhupad's materials. Too much money floating around temples attracts demonic people who do demonic things. You can easily say that Krsna will sort all this out, but Arabs have a saying: "Trust God but tie your camel"!

It's not Krsna I fight against. But false devotees are the lowliest kind of demon around. And remember: "..the truth shall set you free"...

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim: I have some issues with your statement that Prabhupad did not support the caste system. In the Bhagavad gita as it is, he clearly does. Also, there is a few cantos of the Bhagavatam where he does.


Please show, or direct me to, ANY quotes from ANY of Prabhupadas books OR recordings where he supports the hereditary caste-system.
Over the last 20 years I have read all his books (at least three times) & listened to all (1,000s) of his recorded lectures, conversations, etc, but i've never read or heard this!

If you watch your own video carefully Prabhupad is clearly demonstrating that the caste-system exists in our modern world anyway, but it is unknown.


Yes, he is saying that all people can naturally be classified according to their WORK, ABILITIES, NATURAL QUALITIES, APTITUDE, PROPENSITIES & TRAINING NOT by BIRTHRIGHT/HEREDITARY. Many times he said that if someones father is a high-court judge, it does not mean his son is a high-court judge, unless the son has the ability, training, Etc. to do the job.


Intelligent and rich folks know who they are and they will do everything possible to make certain their offspring will remain in their possitions of authority and power. This is simply human nature. Hence, the caste-system is natural to us and Prabhupad knew this.

That is not real caste-system (by QUALITIES, Etc.) "Offspring" obviously implies by BIRTHRIGHT/HEREDITARY.


Hence, the caste-system is natural to us and Prabhupad knew this. Trying to cover this up to be more "politically correct" is a disservice to his teachings.


:confused: There is nothing to cover-up!
Prabhupada always said that the real caste-system (which is actually called Varnashram-Dharma) was natural & created by Krishna.
He sometimes called the hereditary caste-system "demoniac", he NEVER supported it!
Please watch the video again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCsQDTA_0dk&feature=related

[pilgrim]

The caste system is a serious corruption of varnasrama-dharma as it is described in the Vedas. Everyone knows about the Hindu caste system and its awful abuses of human rights. Although varnasrama may sound very similar there is, in fact, a great difference.

There are many points of variance, but perhaps the most critical between casteism and varnasrama is that in the latter’s designation is based upon personal qualities, whereas in the former it depends solely upon birth. In Vedic varnasrama-dharma, if you were born into a working class, or sudra, family but had the quality of a scholar, or brahmana, then you would be considered a brahmana despite your birth—or vice versa. This should be an obvious point: after all, will the son of a high court judge necessarily become a judge himself? Or the son of a doctor become a doctor?

There is a great deal of social mobility in varnasrama-dharma, which is not the case in the present caste system—hence all the problems. Therefore, when talking about varnasrama-dharma, we are speaking of something which is hardly ever seen today, even in India.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indian civilization on the basis of the four varnas and asramas deteriorated because of her dependency on foreigners, or those who did not follow the civilization of varnasrama. Thus the varnasrama system has now been degraded into the caste system.
The institution of four varnas and four asramas is confirmed herewith to be bhagavad-racita, which means “designed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” In Bhagavad-gita this is also confirmed: catur-varnyah may srstam [Bg. 4.13]. The Lord says that the institution of four varnas and four asramas “is created by Me.” Anything created by the Lord cannot be closed or covered. The divisions of varnas and asramas will continue to exist, either in their original form or in degraded form, but because they are created by the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they cannot be extinguished. They are like the sun, a creation of God, and therefore will remain. Either covered by clouds or in a clear sky, the sun will continue to exist. Similarly, when the varnasrama system becomes degraded, it appears as a hereditary caste system, but in every society there is an intelligent class of men, a martial class, a mercantile class and a laborer class. When they are regulated for cooperation among communities according to the Vedic principles, then there is peace and spiritual advancement. But when there is hatred and malpractice and mutual mistrust in the caste system, the whole system becomes degraded, and as stated herein, it creates a deplorable state.
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.21.52 Purport)

[pilgrim]

But my biggest issue with ISCON and Prabhupad's movement in general has to do with his alleged murder. If ISCON and other Gurus are attempting to cover up Prabhupad's murder, then they are doing a huge disservice to him. It is the ultimate sacriledge to his name and his history. One must be a servant of the truth, and lying and covering up stuff is a disservice to that.


I AGREE 100%!!!
I was banned from ISKCON about 15 years ago when i & others began exposing the criminal leaders posing as gurus! They are a bunch of demons as far as i can ascertain! They don't care for Prabhupada. They are there to destroy his pure Hare Krishna movement & turn it into another branch of "Hinduism". They already run it like a "cult" in the worst sense of the word. Murder, child abuse, drug-running, you name it!

Did you see the webpage i made which has audio proof of ISKCON leaders poisoning Prabhupada:
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/paul/prabhupada_poisoned.htm


I have numerous other issues vs. ISCON, not the least of which is the copyrighting of Prabhupad's materials. Too much money floating around temples attracts demonic people who do demonic things. You can easily say that Krsna will sort all this out, but Arabs have a saying: "Trust God but tie your camel"!
It's not Krsna I fight against. But false devotees are the lowliest kind of demon around. And remember: "..the truth shall set you free"...

Tell me about it! I've been exposing these pseudo-devotees for 15 years & trying to explain to people that there is nothing bad about the Hare Krishna teachings & Srila Prabhupada. It is the wolves in sheep's clothing (who hijacked ISKCON in 1977) & their brainwashed followers that are the cause of all the problems!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PEzuwMSdY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3SBe8Jf6To

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEV8jb9s71s&feature=related

Devotees who distribute magazines that tell the truth about ISKCON are attacked by false-devotees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IShsqg2NlQ

Sri Isopanisad - Mantra 12 (Prabhupada purport):
The pseudo- religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of altristic and philanthropic activities and in the guise of religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God.
Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. To mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.
These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 16.19-20) that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell. Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo- religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

[octopusrex]

I AGREE 100%!!!
I was banned from ISKCON about 15 years ago when i & others began exposing the criminal leaders posing as gurus! They are a bunch of demons as far as i can ascertain! They don't care for Prabhupada. They are there to destroy his pure Hare Krishna movement & turn it into another branch of "Hinduism". They already run it like a "cult" in the worst sense of the word. Murder, child abuse, drug-running, you name it!

Did you see the webpage i made which has audio proof of ISKCON leaders poisoning Prabhupada:
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/paul/prabhupada_poisoned.htm



Tell me about it! I've been exposing these pseudo-devotees for 15 years & trying to explain to people that there is nothing bad about the Hare Krishna teachings & Srila Prabhupada. It is the wolves in sheep's clothing (who hijacked ISKCON in 1977) & their brainwashed followers that are the cause of all the problems!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PEzuwMSdY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3SBe8Jf6To

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEV8jb9s71s&feature=related

Devotees who distribute magazines that tell the truth about ISKCON are attacked by false-devotees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IShsqg2NlQ

Sri Isopanisad - Mantra 12 (Prabhupada purport):
The pseudo- religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of altristic and philanthropic activities and in the guise of religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God.
Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. To mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.
These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 16.19-20) that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell. Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo- religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

Regarding the caste-system, we are getting lost in semantics. In Kali-Yuga we are all Sudras. A Brahmin must be born 3 times. In a democracy, Vaishas rule by ruling over Sudras convinced that they are "free" from unjust caste-sytems.

The other stuff works wonderfully for me. Nothing more satisfying than uncovering religious mischief!

[pilgrim]

Regarding the caste-system, we are getting lost in semantics.

Pilgrim: I have some issues with your statement that Prabhupad did not support the caste system. In the Bhagavad gita as it is, he clearly does. Also, there is a few cantos of the Bhagavatam where he does..

Can you show me those (or ANY) quotes where Prabhupada supports the hereditary caste-system?


Bhagavad-gita 5.18

SANSKRIT
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah

TRANSLATION
The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater (outcaste).

PURPORT
A Krsna conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brahmana and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, or an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramatma, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge.
As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramatma regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramatma is present both in the outcaste and in the brahmana, although the body of a brahmana and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality.
The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body whereas the Paramatma is present in each and every body. A Krsna conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction.

[octopusrex]

Pilgrim:

Srimad Bhagavatam: 1rst Canto, 18th Chapter, Text 33.

(my translation is in spanish, so I'll try to translate)

Prabhupad says:

"... in this manner, the caste system is perfectly scientific. The son must take advantage of the father's capabilities and in this manner become a brahmana or a doctor..."

I am by no means a teacher of the scriptures, but if you can quench my thirst for information on this subject, I will be grateful. My opinion remains the same: Prabhupad supported the caste system.

[ichi wa zen]

Stop reading and fighting over that evil Hindu blabla and read the Tao Te King instead!

"Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not learned.
The learned do not know."

[octopusrex]

Stop reading and fighting over that evil Hindu blabla and read the Tao Te King instead!

"Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not learned.
The learned do not know."

I'll try to get a copy. I like ALL the holy books. Tibetan Book of the Dead is great...

In the Zen Monastery, it was forbidden to read. That's why I am not a Zen monk. Although walking meditation works wonders on your health. Evil is still a duality.

Eat Peyote.
Smoke Pot.
Look at the Sun.

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim:

Srimad Bhagavatam: 1rst Canto, 18th Chapter, Text 33.

Prabhupad says:

"... in this manner, the caste system is perfectly scientific. The son must take advantage of the father's capabilities and in this manner become a brahmana or a doctor..."

I am by no means a teacher of the scriptures, but if you can quench my thirst for information on this subject, I will be grateful. My opinion remains the same: Prabhupad supported the caste system.

Why are you using a quote out of context?
Prabhupada is saying that the son should take advantage of the fathers CAPABILITIES as a Brahmin or doctor. Not that either were automatically born as a Brahmin or doctor!
Prabhupada supported classification by natural qualities & work (real caste-system) NEVER by birthright (hereditary caste-system).
Did you bother to actually read my previous posts?
It seems like you are determined to misunderstand.

Here's the whole section where you clipped the quote from:

"It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā that four social orders or castes, namely the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras, are set up according to quality and work done by them. Naturally the son of a brāhmaṇa has a good chance to become a brāhmaṇa by the direction of his qualified father, as a son of a medical practitioner has a very good chance to become a qualified medical practitioner. So the caste system is quite scientific. The son must take advantage of the father's qualification and thus become a brāhmaṇa or medical practitioner. Without being qualified, one cannot become a brāhmaṇa or medical practitioner, and that is the verdict of all scriptures and social orders. Herein Śṛńgi, a qualified son of a great brāhmaṇa, attained the required brahminical power both by birth and by training, but he was lacking in culture because he was an inexperienced boy. By the influence of Kali, the son of a brāhmaṇa became puffed up with brahminical power and thus wrongly compared Mahārāja Parīkṣit to crows and watchdogs. The King is certainly the watchdog of the state in the sense that he keeps vigilant eyes over the border of the state for its protection and defense, but to address him as a watchdog is the sign of a less-cultured boy. Thus the downfall of the brahminical powers began as they gave importance to birthright without culture. The downfall of the brāhmaṇa caste began in the age of Kali. And since brāhmaṇas are the heads of the social order, all other orders of society also began to deteriorate. This beginning of brahminical deterioration was highly deplored by the father of Śṛńgi, as we will find." (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.18.33 purport)

[pilgrim]

Stop reading and fighting over that evil Hindu blabla and read the Tao Te King instead!


This is the 'HARE KRISHNA' thread, not the 'Taoism' or 'Recommended Books' or 'Hate-Speech' threads.

Would it be ok for me to go to a thread debating Taoism and write:
"Stop reading and fighting over that nasty Chinese bullsh*t and read the Bhagavad-gita instead!"?

I have read the Tao Te Ching and other books about Taoism, Zen & Tibetan Buddhism.
I also used to practice Buddhist Zazen meditation.

Have you read the Bhagavad-gita or any other Vedic books, or practiced Bhakti Yoga?

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that the Vedic philosophy of Krishna consciousness is:

1: Evil
2: Hindu
3: Blabla

If you have - please enlighten us.
If you have'nt - please stay silent.

Your unfounded, judgemental accusations are not very Tao (or Zen), are they?

... Om Tat Sat ...

[octopusrex]

Okay, Pilgrim:

You want to dance Dharma?

WHY did I put it "out of context"?

Or better yet...

WHO is really qualified during KALI Yuga to chant:

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

And finally... During the age of internet, where anybody can download just about every teacher out there, Acharya or not... How can there be a "confidential" teaching?

Quinto Sol wants to know.

???

[pilgrim]

Okay, Pilgrim:
You want to dance Dharma?
WHY did I put it "out of context"?
Or better yet...
WHO is really qualified during KALI Yuga to chant:
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
And finally... During the age of internet, where anybody can download just about every teacher out there, Acharya or not... How can there be a "confidential" teaching?
Quinto Sol wants to know.
???

OK, Octopusrex / Fifth Sun / whoever you are:
Let's "dance Dharma"

On Page 6 of this thread you said that you were a "follower of Krishna" and that you "live in a Krishna temple".
I really cannot believe this.
If it were true you would already know that Krishna consciousness is not Hindu, is not Impersonalist, & does not support the hereditary caste-system.
You would also know why Krsna consciousness is "the most confidential knowledge" and what the qualification for chanting "Hare Krishna" in this age of Kali is.

I can't see the point in answering your questions or challenges if you're gonna lie to me.
(Unless you're just playing 'Devil's Advocate', which i doubt.)

Please answer these three simple questions:

1: Which Krishna temple do you live in?
2: Which branch of Vaisnavism do you follow?
3: Who is your initiating spiritual master?

Any Vaishnava (Krishna devotee) would not hesitate to answer these three questions. :)

... Om Tat Sat ...

[octopusrex]

OK, Octopusrex / Fifth Sun / whoever you are:
Let's "dance Dharma"

On Page 6 of this thread you said that you were a "follower of Krishna" and that you "live in a Krishna temple".
I really cannot believe this.
If it were true you would already know that Krishna consciousness is not Hindu, is not Impersonalist, & does not support the hereditary caste-system.
You would also know why Krsna consciousness is "the most confidential knowledge" and what the qualification for chanting "Hare Krishna" in this age of Kali is.

I can't see the point in answering your questions or challenges if you're gonna lie to me.
(Unless you're just playing 'Devil's Advocate', which i doubt.)

Please answer these three simple questions:

1: Which Krishna temple do you live in?
2: Which branch of Vaisnavism do you follow?
3: Who is your initiating spiritual master?

Any Vaishnava (Krishna devotee) would not hesitate to answer these three questions. :)

... Om Tat Sat ...

1. I left the temple for a while. In order to take care of 2 Vaisnavas left by their father to their own destiny.
2. Prabhupad's
3. I haven't been "inicitated" yet, but I'm flirting with a Guru.

I don't lie. What you believe is irrelevant. We are here to discuss the sastras. Prabhupad's qualifications for chanting are: 1. No intoxication, 2. No illicit sex, 3. No gambling, 4. No meat eating.

And about "devil's advocate"... You have no idea how right you are.

There was NO interntet widely available when Prabhupad died. The search for a QUALIFIED Guru is a real and valid one, but one has to be extremely careful because there's false-prophets galore in ALL the different religions, including the Hare Krsna movement. Since I only met Prabhupad once as a 5 year old child and we never spoke personally, I can't speak about him, only about his disciples some of whom I know. I must admit, I am not impressed by their moral character.

Krsna, however, has sufficient mercy on my soul to let me taste some nectar now and then of his omnipresent grace. Thank the Gods that Jesus complements Krsna's teachings in the Bhagavad Gita for me.. Otherwise, I'd be TOTALLY lost.

And I am pretty convinced that Jesus ate fish and meat.

And finally, I must admit, although I follow Krsna's teachings in the Bhagavad Gita, I am NOT a Vaisnava. I am a Shakta with tendencies of Bhakta. In fact, my true calling spiritually is as a Peyote Shaman... And a White one at that. For fun, I spend time in religious forums, tyring to poke holes in the faith of weak-willed devotees who are ready to fall. If they don't fall, then their faith becomes knowledge. If they fall, they were not ready to be devotees anyhow.

[ichi wa zen]

I'll try to get a copy. I like ALL the holy books. Tibetan Book of the Dead is great...

In the Zen Monastery, it was forbidden to read. That's why I am not a Zen monk. Although walking meditation works wonders on your health. Evil is still a duality.

Eat Peyote.
Smoke Pot.
Look at the Sun.

Sorry for offtopic bla bla. Why read so much? If you think you can really know you are lost forever! Your mother is holy not those books :D

Dont do drugs! They are BAD AND EVIL! MMMM Evil is duality? Right and Wrong!

If i would murder 500 people and cook and eat them afterwards could we not say that it was evil? Even if 2 is 1 we still have to use 1 and 1 to get to 2.

Let me phrase that differently: if i would go to the supermarket and ask for some chicken and the helper asks me "would you like 1 or 2 pieces of chicken" would you go "2 does not exist, you are stuck in duality butcher" or would you say "i like 2 pieces please".

We are limited mind and infinite mind at the same time for we have a body atm.

[octopusrex]

Sorry for offtopic bla bla. Why read so much? If you think you can really know you are lost forever! Your mother is holy not those books :D

Dont do drugs! They are BAD AND EVIL! MMMM Evil is duality? Right and Wrong!

If i would murder 500 people and cook and eat them afterwards could we not say that it was evil? Even if 2 is 1 we still have to use 1 and 1 to get to 2.

Let me phrase that differently: if i would go to the supermarket and ask for some chicken and the helper asks me "would you like 1 or 2 pieces of chicken" would you go "2 does not exist, you are stuck in duality butcher" or would you say "i like 2 pieces please".

We are limited mind and infinite mind at the same time for we have a body atm.

Zen... Zenny... Zentropo... When ANYBODY tells me "don't do drugs"...

It just puts a smile on my face.

[ichi wa zen]

Zen... Zenny... Zentropo... When ANYBODY tells me "don't do drugs"...

It just puts a smile on my face.

Drugs is not the path! Illusion! Maya!

[octopusrex]

Drugs is not the path! Illusion! Maya!

Mayan Empires¿?

[ichi wa zen]

Mayan Empires¿?

OK, lets all do heroin, cocain, crack, weed, shrooms, XTC, GHB, alcohol and smoke cigarettes all day!

Meditation is not needed! All we need to do is drugs, yes drugs! MwuhahaahHAhahah, if drugs were needed why dont heroinpoppies grow on my back?

[pilgrim]

ichi wa zen:

I'm still waiting for you to answer these questions:

Have you read the Bhagavad-gita or any other Vedic books, or practiced Bhakti Yoga?

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that the Vedic philosophy of Krishna consciousness is:
1: Evil
2: Hindu
3: Blabla

Would it be ok for me to go to a thread debating Taoism and write:
"Stop reading and fighting over that nasty Chinese bullsh*t and read the Bhagavad-gita instead!"?


... Om Tat Sat ...

[pilgrim]

OK, lets all do heroin, cocain, crack, weed, shrooms, XTC, GHB, alcohol and smoke cigarettes all day!
Meditation is not needed! All we need to do is drugs, yes drugs! MwuhahaahHAhahah, if drugs were needed why dont heroinpoppies grow on my back?

Serious followers of Krishna consciousness try to avoid ALL drugs, including tea & coffee.
They also practice Bhakti-yoga meditation on a daily basis.

[ichi wa zen]

Would it be ok for me to go to a thread debating Taoism and write:"Stop reading and fighting over that nasty Chinese bullsh*t and read the Bhagavad-gita instead!"?

A thread in which Taoists would debate about East vs West? Nonsense, any Taoist would not waste his time blabbering about North vs South, Left vs Right, Swami Pastrami vs Swami Bami!

Why Hinduism is the most polluted of all religions?

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/global/themes/beliefsystems/graphics/caste.gif

India is still trapped by a collection of paper with words written on them some 4000 years ago. Was that Krishna's plan?

[pilgrim]

ichi wa zen,
Your posts (as usual) continue to reveal your ignorance!
I don't think you have even read my posts, or it would already be clear to you that:

1: There have been NO debates here about "East vs West, North vs South, Left vs Right or Swami Pastrami vs Swami Bami!"
2: Krishna consciousness is NOT "Hinduism".
3: Krishna consciousness does NOT support the hereditary Indian caste-system.

Maybe you should start some new threads on this forum.
How about 'The Evils Of Hinduism' or 'The Retards Guide To Taoism'?
This is the 'Hare Krishna' thread. What are you doing here?

But, before you go, maybe you would like to finally answer my other questions:

Have you read the Bhagavad-gita or any other Vedic books, or practiced Bhakti Yoga?

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that the Vedic philosophy of Krishna consciousness is:
1: Evil
2: Hindu
3: Blabla

[ichi wa zen]

ichi wa zen, Your posts (as usual) continue to reveal your ignorance!

How wonderful this ignorance is! Knowing nothing is truly the greatest bliss!

PS i am not taoist, not zen nor buddhist. I am Zen wa Ichi, Ichi wa Zen!

[pilgrim]

1. I left the temple for a while.
2. Prabhupad's
3. I haven't been "inicitated" yet, but I'm flirting with a Guru.


OK, octopusrex, Let me rephrase the questions for you:

1: Which temple DID you live in?
2: WHAT is Prabhupada's branch of Vaisnavism?
3: WHO is the Guru you are "flirting with"? (even though you just said that you follow Prabhupada!)

Prabhupad's qualifications for chanting are: 1. No intoxication, 2. No illicit sex, 3. No gambling, 4. No meat eating.


Actually the only qualification needed for chanting the 'Hare Krishna' Maha-Mantra in Kali-Yuga is a little faith:

Nama Hatta - means the Marketplace (Hatta) of the Holy Names (Nama) of God. The marketplace of the Holy Name was founded in the 1500's in West Bengal by Sri Nityananada Raya on the Island of Godruma in Navadvip. Based on the principle that the price for chanting purely the Names of God is sincere faith. With however much faith one possesses, that much benefit can be derived from the chanting. One does not need to leave his(her) home, family or position in life. One needs only to come to the market, buy what one desires and take it home. Thus Nama Hatta is for teaching the world to advance spiritually at home. It does not require extraneous endeavor or great investments of money. Any place where one can easily obtain the mercy of receiving the pure Holy Names of God to chant is a part of the Nama Hatta.

I must admit, although I follow Krsna's teachings in the Bhagavad Gita, I am NOT a Vaisnava. I am a Shakta with tendencies of Bhakta. In fact, my true calling spiritually is as a Peyote Shaman... And a White one at that.

Ah, good old "pick & mix" spirituality! I see. :rolleyes:

...Om Tat Sat ...

[pilgrim]

How wonderful this ignorance is! Knowing nothing is truly the greatest bliss!

Yes, you are truly ignorant and you know nothing, but i very much doubt that you're feeling any bliss!

i am not taoist, not zen nor buddhist. I am Zen wa Ichi, Ichi wa Zen!
No, you are an uninformed fool who could not back up ANY of your accusations, or answer ANY of my simple questions!

Keep taking the 'Blue Pill' and "enjoy" your life of wilful ignorance!
http://campus.northpark.edu/philosophy/blue_pill.jpg

[pilgrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI1xxPB0FGU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxTTRS86Hvc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1OiZdb4JrI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ6sKUR0BVc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7eFQMakhDE

[ichi wa zen]

Yes, you are truly ignorant and you know nothing, but i very much doubt that you're feeling any bliss!

How could one know, you are you and i am Zen wa Ichi, Ichi wa Zen!

[pilgrim]

How could one know, you are you and i am Zen wa Ichi, Ichi wa Zen!

You have clearly & repeatedly revealed yourself to be an ignorant fool, a foolish ignoramus!

Either present your evidence that Krishna Consciousness is "Evil, Hindu, or Blabla", or take your uninformed wilful ignorance elsewhere. Thanks.

... Om Tat Sat ...

[optimus pigpot]

Children of The Matrix..........

Pages 61,116, 205, 211, 213.

So stop peddling your shit on here!!!!!!!!

Uninformed as you are, poor soul.......

[pilgrim]

Children of The Matrix..........
Pages 61,116, 205, 211, 213.

Since when was David Icke the ultimate, expert authority on Krishna, Indian religions or Vedic philosophy?
(or anything, apart from his own limited 5 sense perception of "reality"?)

If you really believe that Icke has ALL the answers, why don't you follow his advice:
"Don't believe me. Do the research!"?

Anyone who has actually done their research will already know that the nonsense Icke repeated about Krishna (& Jesus) were unfounded speculations that he stole from Acarya S (D.M.Murdock) & Jordan Maxwell which are now being repeated by 'Zeitgeist' and believed by gullible people like you who are too lazy to do any research of their own!
The things said about Krishna are laughable nonsense to anyone who actually knows a bit about Him.
They have been proven inaccurate on this very forum.
Krishna was NOT born on December 25th and he was NOT crucified, etc.

So stop peddling your shit on here!!!!!!!!

Where is your EVIDENCE that i'm "peddling sh*t!!!" on this 'Hare Krishna' thread?
ALL you can do is make childish, nasty accusations that you can NEVER back-up!

Uninformed as you are, poor soul.......

You appear to have NO knowledge about Krishna apart from the few lines of disinfo Icke repeated in 'Children Of The Matrix'
...which means that it is, in fact, YOU who is an uninformed, poor soul.

Knowledge about Krishna (like Krishna Himself) is unlimited, eternal & full of bliss! You're really missing out!
Don't worry though, here's a special gift from me to you with LOVE:
http://vedabase.net/

... Om Tat Sat ...

[optimus pigpot]

Poot, Poot!!!!!!

Read my post which answers your issues, it's in the Why the Religion forum is Shit, I responded to your question......

Om Tat For Tit!!! Ping, pong, dong.......

[octopusrex]

Folks,

One thing I learned from Bhramanas, Brujos and LSD Dealers is that no matter how ridiculous somebody's "magical abilities" might sound to you, if you don't show some RESPECT they can hit you with a shitstorm of bad luck.

Once, A Huixol sorceress put my testicles to the grind with 1 whole year of horrible itching... I do not intend to tell you what else I encountered on the way, but I have LEARNED to respect the Hare Krsnas the hard way. They got serious mojo.

So before you go calling Prabhupad and his chanting commandos names, you best be on your toes with your own Gods...

Now, Pilgrim and Zen seem to be on this "anti-drug" campaign to reform ol' brujos like myself. Well, that really don't work because although I love Krnsa for his own sake and beauty I don't really need to be leaving my brujo's ways to chant his name (as Pilgrim thankfully explained to me) and if He sends me a little nectar now and then when helping his devotees, all the better, and if not, that's cool too, because when I delve into the Bhagavatam or the Mahabarata, I get more fun from reading that than reading "The Lord of the Rings" and I have watched THAT movie about 100 times already. Krsna as a character is fun. He is mischievous, profound, lusty, transcendental.. You learn from reading about him many things you might not get from reading David Icke. Having said that, I don't necessarily agree 100% with everything Prabhupad said in his commentaries because his world (Bengali) and my world (Mexican) are quite different...

But dissing the Krsna movement without first finding out what it's all about is like talking about "drugs" when you haven't smoked a good spliff.

SHOW SOME RESPECT DOGS!

[pilgrim]

Well said octopusrex!

Maybe you now understand why Krishna/God Consciousness is referred to as "the most confidential knowledge"
(which will forever be hidden from foolish, "Illuminati"-controlled muppets like Optimus Pigpot, Ichi Wa Zen & Cataleptik)!

Bhagavad-gita 9.1-3:
The Supreme Lord said: My dear Arjuna, because you are never envious of Me, I shall impart to you this most secret wisdom, knowing which you shall be relieved of the miseries of material existence.
This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.
Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world.

The Most Confidential Knowledge:
http://www.asitis.com/9/index.html


What can be done when people choose to 'take the Blue Pill' and remain wilfuly ignorant!
The only argument they could present was "It's Crap, Shit, Evil, Blabla, Poot Poot, etc"

... Om Tat Sat ...

[octopusrex]

Now the real question is: Why is Krsna hidding from us all?

[pilgrim]

Now the real question is: Why is Krsna hidding from us all?
He's not... :)

We are trying to hide from Him... :(

http://theyumblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/krishna.jpg
Krishna: The Supreme Personality Of Godhead

... Hari Om Tat Sat ...

[hutanic]

One day this energy arose from edges of my lungs and to top of skull, that energy activated my brain in its entirety. During next 30 minutes i realized many things i was not aware even exist before that moment. Since there is this "Illuminati" symbolism being discussed in conspiracy community let me just say that on that day I realized how lives we all live are shaped in form of pyramid with extremely powerful, oppressive force near top of pyramid. Those experiences continued during next few years, with different knowledge being given to me each time.

At that point of my life i was atheist and my denial of great One was strong then , so i did no associate this with anything but just took it as some (then) unexplainable experiance to me and observed knowledge i was given.

One day i opened closet to look for some comic books, they were all cramped on top shelf so they felt as i tried to reach for them and among them was this book called Bhagavad Gita. So i picked up this book that "Came From Above" not knowing what it was or being even able to pronounce its name.

Out of curiosity i looked trough it, and was simply amazed at what i was reading. Most of things i was realizing in those experiences i had were written down in that book exactly in way i realized them. What followed changed my life completely but one things i know that if any book has true knowledge in it and that knowledge indeed does come from great One.

I do not know if great One ever did incarnate as being by name of Krishna (or any other name), but one can take background story as metaphor to understand knowledge being presented in that great dialog.

As far as Hare Krishnas go i do recommend to read Prabhupada "Bhagavad Gita As It Is" since it is awesome translation and that version was one that came to my life. But why join any such movement? I see it just as following some fashion trend, if you want knowledge it is with in you.

[pilgrim]

As far as Hare Krishnas go i do recommend to read Prabhupada "Bhagavad Gita As It Is" since it is awesome translation and that version was one that came to my life. But why join any such movement? I see it just as following some fashion trend, if you want knowledge it is with in you.
Thanks for sharing your experiences hutanic.
I agree that there is no need to join a movement to study or practice Krishna consciousness and True Knowledge is to be found both within and without.

[hutanic]

Yup

[ichi wa zen]

@octopusrex, i am not antidrugs, i did drugs, but got over it, its for kids. Take all the drugs you want man, kill all the people you want, rape all the women you want, perform all the black magic you want. I dont care.

The universe does.

[octopusrex]

@octopusrex, i am not antidrugs, i did drugs, but got over it, its for kids. Take all the drugs you want man, kill all the people you want, rape all the women you want, perform all the black magic you want. I dont care.

The universe does.

Kill, rape and cast darkspells... Hmmm.. You got the wrong octopus. I am not into those things. Drafting a little Peyote maybe.. Smoking a big fat spliff. But killing and raping I leave to others. I prefer making love and cooking spaguetti.

BTW. Giving "drugs" to kids is fine, so long as you know the dosage, the drug and the reason for doing it.

[pilgrim]

Who Is Srila Prabhupada?

You can read his Books here:
http://vedabase.net/

Or listen to Lectures & Conversations here:
http://realaudio.krishna.org/

There are also a lot of videos on YouTube!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZDDJcDZ1Xk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeDcxS0zw28&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkFNTfqvkRM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP0THZnGrQo

:( Unfortunately, when Srila Prabhupada physically departed in 1977... 11 sinister wannabe "gurus" (agents of the "Illuminati") took over his movement! :mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PEzuwMSdY
If anyone is interested in the Krsna Consciousness philosophy, please AVOID the present-day ISKCON pseudo-devotee. bogus-guru cult!
Hear & read the teachings of Srila Prabhupada (a genuine spiritual master) which he left for the spiritual advancement of all human society. :)

...Om Tat Sat ...

[octopusrex]

Pilgrim..

You mentioned you studied some Zen. Care to talk about why you didn't follow that path?

[pilgrim]

Welcome back Cataleptik. I hope you enjoyed your break.

Maybe you could now reply to this post:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=301637&postcount=117

You said that you are a Buddhist who was "disgusted" by the alleged snake-loving, nazi swastika imagery in Krishna Consciousness.
ksalt then posted many images that clearly proved that the snake & swastika were actually more related to Buddhism than anything else!

After you have replied to ksalt's post, my question for you is this:
How do you reconcile your Buddhist beliefs, with your "disgust" for snake and swastika imagery?

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim..

You mentioned you studied some Zen. Care to talk about why you didn't follow that path?

Basically, I received the book "Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers" by Srila Prabhupada from a devotee in the street.
This book clearly answered the questions that Buddhism & other philosophies that i had studied could not answer for me.
I then started chanting the 'Hare Krishna' Maha-Mantra which i found many times more effective than Zazen meditation.
Why take the stairs, when you can take the escalator?!

[octopusrex]

Basically, I received the book "Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers" by Srila Prabhupada from a devotee in the street.
This book clearly answered the questions that Buddhism & other philosophies that i had studied could not answer for me.
I then started chanting the 'Hare Krishna' Maha-Mantra which i found many times more effective than Zazen meditation.
Why take the stairs, when you can take the escalator?!

Hmmm... I'm shakta, so my dept. is Ma Durga.

Green magic has it's own rules, and Lord Siva and Ma Durga are masters there.. (far as I know)...

Mescalito is less ... disciplinarian than the Great Ones.

Zazen vs. Mahamantra... Hmmm.

My vote remains with ....

[ichi wa zen]

Pilgrim..

You mentioned you studied some Zen. Care to talk about why you didn't follow that path?

Maybe because he is into theories and not practice? Words and no action?

Signed,

Ichi wa Zen aka Ignorant aka Clear aka Transparent

[octopusrex]

Maybe because he is into theories and not practice? Words and no action?

Signed,

Ichi wa Zen aka Ignorant aka Clear aka Transparent

What budha brings a sword of truth?

[ichi wa zen]

What budha brings a sword of truth?

Buddha = Truth.

[octopusrex]

You did not answer my question.

[ichi wa zen]

You did not answer my question.

I dont like questions, are we on Jeopardy? You win the $ 500 trip to Oklahoma.

[pilgrim]

I dont like questions, are we on Jeopardy?
You don't like questions, because you are a fool with no answers!
Your avatar picture perfectly suits your mentality!
Please crawl back to your comics & pornography, you have nothing to offer on this thread!

[ichi wa zen]

You don't like questions, because you are a fool with no answers!
Your avatar picture perfectly suits your mentality!
Please crawl back to your comics & pornography, you have nothing to offer on this thread!

I’d like to
Offer something
To help you
But in the Zen School
We don’t have a single thing!

Ikkyu

[octopusrex]

Octopusrex throws a snowball at Itchy

[pilgrim]

Octopusrex throws a snowball at Itchy... Pilgrim catches it before it hits Itchy and says "Look who's on TV"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JdmuPKgNVI

[octopusrex]

Kthulu looks over his shoulder.

[pilgrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSyuNjcfL4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iigLW3B6BPs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBFkrPDFIu0

[octopusrex]

You know, Pilgrim....

1. I am Krsna Conscious.
2. I practice Shakta Consciously.
3. I am a Peyote Shaman.

I disagree with Prabhupad on Pot.

[blue]

ok so now its prabhupadas turn.....keep on promoting your gurus in here.

[blue]

ok so now its prabhupadas turn after sai baba, osho. ok go on keep promoting your gurus on david icke forum.

[pilgrim]

ok so now its prabhupadas turn after sai baba, osho. ok go on keep promoting your gurus on david icke forum.
Will do. :)
Thanks for the encouragement, again. ;)

[blue]

Will do. :)
Thanks for the encouragement, again. ;)

yes ur welcome.....bombard this forum with ur gurus and save us.

[pilgrim]

yes ur welcome.....bombard this forum with ur gurus and save us.
:) OK, especially for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECmvesH3wqk

PS: Sai Baba, Osho (Bhagavan Sri Rajneesh) & Maharishi Mahesh Yogi are not Bona-Fide Gurus! They are con-men, paedophiles, etc.. :rolleyes:

Please Check this thread out:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22138&page=3
Post #24 onwards..

[ichi wa zen]

yes ur welcome.....bombard this forum with ur gurus and save us.

HEY STOP BEING SARCASTIC HERE LAD.

Prahubuhapuhpaha will save the world by singing songs and cleansing himself in The Ganges (you know that holy river they also poo in).

Lets save the world ourselves! Gurus suck!

[octopusrex]

Zen..

A wise man looks for the best in everybody.

[ichi wa zen]

Very true Rex!

The good thing about Prahubhabda is that people will find out they are not getting anywhere listening to his teachings and then move on to true teachers like Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Dogen Zenji, The Buddha, Rinzai, Basho, Ryokan, Ikkyu, Bodhidharma, Gudo Nishijima etc etc etc!

[pilgrim]

The good thing about Prahubhabda is that people will find out they are not getting anywhere listening to his teachings and then move on to true teachers like Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Dogen Zenji, The Buddha, Rinzai, Basho, Ryokan, Ikkyu, Bodhidharma, Gudo Nishijima etc etc etc!
You have obviously never studied Srila Prabhupada's teachings, so your post is meaningless and irrelevant.
Do any of the teachers you listed say that you should be offensive about other teachers, that you know little about?. :)

[octopusrex]

You can't separate the historic Buddha from the Bhramanic culture because he came much as Martin Luther, to reform corrupt Bhramanas. If you look for the context of everything, you realize Buddha speaks like a Bhramin.

Pilgrim is right in his views and Zen is right in his views and both are wrong in their views respectively. To understand this, you have to look where you are standing.

Their conflict is no different from Muslims and Christians - it is a matter of sastra (holy writings) upon which both adepts depend to make their points. How like humans to adopt a duality, a conflict and not look for common points. Christ comes to reform the Abramaic Jews. Mohammed comes to reform the Christians. Nobody gets the joke... Instead, war, death and destruction follow the teachers' path.

The most enduring and well known teaching of Bodhidarma is Kung-Fu. It is clear why he didn't want any disciples. Prabhupad is probably murdered by the very people who are supposed to serve him. After his death, his "top" students and devotees begin a debautched race to see who is more perverted and corrupt.

Something very profound is happening on this thread, and I hope all of you who have "eyes to see" can read between the lines.

To find out what Krsna is all about, simply chant his name. That's the only way.

To find out what Zen Buddhism is all about, simply sin in Zazen. That's the only way.

[pilgrim]

Pilgrim is right in his views and Zen is right in his views and both are wrong in their views respectively.
To understand this, you have to look where you are standing.
octopusrex, why are the vast majority of your posts so vague and glib? :rolleyes:

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ADDENDUM (because octopusrex added more to his last post, which was only the first 2 paragraphs when i posted the above):

I agree what you say about Hare Krishna chanting and Zazen meditation.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating! I've tried both myself!

My objection is to Itchi Wa Zen's unfounded attacks on Krishna Consciousness and Srila Prabhupada on a thread entitled "Hare Krishna" which was started by paganus with the question:
i am becoming interested in the hare krishna movement.do anyone have any info on them?
Ichi Wa Zen obviously has no info on Krishna Consciousness so why is he even here on this thread!
I have NEVER disrespected anyone's beliefs on this or any other thread. But that is ALL that Ichi Wa Zen seems to do.
That is the difference between me (Pilgrim) and Ichi Wa Zen.

[ichi wa zen]

Oi Rex, yes there are many things both Hinduism and Buddhism agree on. However they are not the same! Some big differences are:

-Hinduism believes in the eternal soul, atman. Buddhists do not.

-Hinduism believes in nature being eternal, brahman. Buddhists do not.

-Hinduism has Gods and worships them. Buddhist dont deny Gods but they dont concern themselves with things one can not know.

-Hinduists must live by caste. Buddhism teaches supreme compassion for all beings, everyone is equal.

-Hinduism believes in the Vedas. Buddhism dont believe in any Hindu scripture.

-Hinduists pursue 4 main aims, arthas. Buddhism does not.

Hinduism and Buddhism are very different! Now we all know that the brahmins werent very pleased with The Buddha and his compassion for all as it messed with their caste system. Many scriptures of The Buddha have been defiled by those same brahmins. I have little sympathy for these actions i must say. Please dont try to compare these 2 religions because its like water and fire.

[pilgrim]

Oi Rex, yes there are many things both Hinduism and Buddhism agree on. However they are not the same! Some big differences are:...


I could easily prove that most of what you said is not true, but i'm tired of wasting my time responding to your uninformed posts that have no place in this 'Hare Krishna' thread to begin with. ;)
You seem to have forgotten that Krishna Consciouness is a non-sectarian spiritual science. It is NOT "Hinduism" :rolleyes:

You may call the Vedas Hindu, but "Hindu" is a foreign name. WE ARE NOT HINDUS. (Sri Isopanisad Introduction)

Simply we are teaching that “Become God conscious.” God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. He’s God. And WE ARE ALSO NOT HINDU or Muslim or Christian. This is our bodily designation. We are all pure, part and parcel of the Supreme. (BG Lecture NY 23/11/66)

Prabhupada: (chuckles) And that mataji, she has taken land. I don't like that idea. Some Hindus are supporting. I don't want a Hindu temple. Our constitution is different. We want everyone. Krsna consciousness is for everyone. IT IS NOT A HINDU PROPOGANDA. People may not misunderstand. And actually, till now IN OUR SOCIETY THERE IS NOT A SINGLE OTHER HINDU THAN ME. (laughter) Is that not? (Meeting 9/6/69) New Vrindavana

Lord Caitanya, He said that “I am not a brahmana. I am not a Christian. I AM NOT A HINDU. I am not a sannyasi. I am nothing of this sort.” Then what You are? “I am the servant’s servant’s servant of Krsna. That is My identification.” And when you identify yourself in that way, you are liberated. That is Krsna consciousness, perfection of Krsna consciousness. (CC Lecture New York 21/12/66)

Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone will help us. Maybe... In that way sometimes Hindus are also against. It is not the Mohammedans. Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s time, even THE HINDUS WERE AGAINST HIS MOVEMENT, the brahmanas. They complained to the Kazi that “THIS IS NOT HINDU MOVEMENT.” You see? The sankirtana movement. Therefore Kazi had to take steps to stop the sankirtana movement. So Kazi took step on the ground of complaint by the Hindus.
Nitai: That’s similar to what happened in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Nitai: That’s similar to what happened...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Nitai: ...in Bombay.
Prabhupada: THE HINDUS THEY WANTED TO BREAK OUR TEMPLE, and they broke part of it. You do not know? (Morning Walk 6/3/74)Actually, “Hindu,” THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS “HINDU” RELIGION. We don’t find in the Vedic scripture. Hindu religion... Hindu religion is a modern term given by the foreigners. Actually the Indians, bharatiya, they, their religion is varnasrama-dharma, religion of four castes and four spiritual orders, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The persons who follow these four orders of social status and four orders of spiritual advancement, they are called varnasrama. SO HINDU RELIGION IS A MISCALCULATION. (CC Lecture - NY 11/1/67)

But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. FICTITIOUSLY, THEY HAVE ACCEPTED A HODGEPODGE THING WHICH IS CALLED HINDUISM. THEREFORE THERE IS TROUBLE. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. That is... Krsna says, God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13]. So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that “I don’t take this law.” No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you’ll not be happy. You’ll be punished. So God says maya srstam. “It is given by Me.” So how we can deny it? And that is religion. (Conv. - Vrindavan 28/6/76)

Other religious sects, they say this is Hindu belief. When Krsna says dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara: just like the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming young man. This is science. AND WHY DO YOU SAY IT IS HINDU BELIEF? Does it mean that a Muslim or Christian child does not become a boy? What do you mean by Hindu belief? But they say it like that, Hindu belief. Is that correct if somebody says it is Hindu belief? NO, IT IS FACT, IT IS SCIENCE. What do you think? Is that Hindu belief?" (Tehran 8/8/76)

So where is the difficulty to understand? Plain thing. Plain thing. But we are stubborn. We do not wish to understand. This is not a sectarian; this is a science. If a child becomes a boy, is that sectarian? The Hindu child becomes a boy, Hindu boy, and the Christian child becomes a Christian. That is outward, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. But within this body... I am Hindu or Christian because I have got this body from the Christian father-mother, Hindu father-mother. But that is body. I am not this body. Therefore we have to understand first that “I am not this body. Therefore I am not Hindu, not Muslim, not Christian, not black, not white. I am pure spirit soul.” Aham brahmasmi. THIS IS THE FIRST BASIC KNOWLEDGE. THIS IS NOT SECTARIAN. This is a basic knowledge, you believe or not believe. (BG Lect. – 22/4/76 Melbourne)

In Durban we went to that university. You remember? That Arya-samaji? He was speaking that “This is Hindu conception. Hindu conception.” And what do you mean by Hindu conception? A child grows to become a boy. Is that Hindu conception? It is science. When Krsna said, dehino ’smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13], that’s a fact. It is applicable to the Hindus, to the Muslim, to the Christian, everyone. Why do you say it is Hindu conception? SO, YOU HAVE TO PRESENT IN THAT WAY, THAT THEY MAY NOT THINK THAT IT IS HINDU CONCEPTION. Because they are all rascals, unless you explain it, that this is meant for everyone, they will misunderstand that Bhagavata is for the Hindus or for the Indians. It is for everyone. But one must realize. There is no question of Hindu conception or Muslim conception. (MW - Mayapur 20/1/76)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HINDU DHARMA. NO. There is no such word in the whole Vedic literature. You won’t find in the Bhagavad-gita or Bhagavata as Hindu dharma. There is one word as bhagavata-dharma, but there is no such word as Hindu dharma. This Hindu dharma or Hindu... This is creation by our neighbour, Indian neighbour, the Middle-east Muhammadans. They gave the name, Indian people, as “Hindu.” “Hindu” means... There is one river, Sindhu. The Muhammadans, they pronounce sa as ha. So those who were on the other side of the Sindhu River, Hindu River, they were called Hindus. But actually Vedic religion is neither for Hindus nor for Christian nor for... It is meant for the human being. Vedic literature... This Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, they are VEDIC literature.
(SB Lecture - NY 5/3/75)

Bhakti, devotional service is not dependent on any material condition. Because one man is very rich, he can get Krsna? No. Because one man is very poor, he cannot get Krsna? No. That’s not right. Because one is Hindu or Indian, he can get Krsna, not others? No. That is also not. Krsna is unconditionally for everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: sarva yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. Otherwise, how He can be God? If He is a Hindu God, just like they describe in the dictionary that Krsna, a Hindu God—that is nonsense. Krsna is for everyone. Krsna does not say that “I am a Hindu God.’’ But these rascals say Krsna is Hindu God. This is going on. You see in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, sarva yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. “In all species of life.’’ Sambhavanti murtayah. There are as many different forms of life. Tasam mahad yoni, brahma: “Their mother is this material nature, and I am their seed-giving father.’’ Krsna says that. So how can Krsna be Indian or Hindu or this or that? No. Krsna is for everyone. And the proof is that five years ago in the Western countries nobody knew what is Krsna. How they’re taking Krsna in so loving attitude? This is the proof that Krsna is for everyone, and everyone is for Krsna.
Try to understand this philosophy. Don’t be mislead. IT IS NOT A SECTARIAN RELIGION. IT IS THE FACT. (Arrival Lecture - Gainsville 29/7/71)

So that activity and karmis’ activity, there is difference. The karmi’s activity is on upadhi. “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Christian.” With this upadhi, we are acting. But bhakti means without upadhi. Sarvopadhi-virnirmuktam. Activity without upadhi. Working not as American. Working not as Indian. Working not as Hindu. Working not as Muslim. That is sarvopadhi-vinirmuktah tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If we think that “I am Christian,” “I am Hindu,” “I am American,” that is with upädhi. When we purely think that “We are...,” or “I am servant of Krsna. My only business is to satisfy Krsna,” that activity is called bhakti. If I become interested in some party, that is not... Sometimes people criticize these American and European devotees, that they think that “They are American devotee; we are Hindu devotee. There is difference.” This is not bhakti-marga. This is upadhi. Why you should think yourself as Hindu? Why you should think of others who have come from America as American? That is less intelligent. Krsna-bhakta... Vaisnave jati-buddhih. If one thinks of Vaisnava as belonging to this class, this nation, he has no vision. Naraki. That is called naraki-buddhih. Vaisnave jati-buddhih arcye siladhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih. If we think the Deity as made of stone and made of wood, arcye sila-dhir; guruhu, nara-matih, if we accept spiritual master as ordinary human being; vaisnave jati-buddhih, and if we take a Vaisnava as belonging to America or Europe or India... No. They are transcendental. Neither the Deity in the temple is stone, NEITHER THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, NOR THE VAISNAVA BELONGS TO ANY CASTE. This vision is perfect vision. When you come to this vision, that is bhakti. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. A bhakta has to become purified. Tat-paratvena, being dovetailed with the service of tat, om tat sat. Tat-param. This is the process of devotional service. One should not be designated “I am this,” “I am that,” “I am that.” No. The world should unite. This Krsna consciousness movement is so nice that one should forget that he’s Indian or Hindu or Christian or American. Everything should unite as servant of Krsna. That is bhakti-marga. (NOD Class - Vrindavan 1/11/72)

Gopala Krsna: They are saying, they are saying we are not Hindus.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Gopala Krsna: They are saying this is not Hinduism.
Prabhupada: Hindus?, we are Krsnian. It they, if...
Hansaduta: Krsnans.
Prabhupada: Krsna, in the dictionary it is said, that Hindu God but we are claiming, that Krsnian, Krsna. Krsna conscious. Krsna conscious means “Godder than the Hindus.” When you say we are not Hindu that we are not restricted with the Hindi community. That is the meaning. Because Krsna says, “I am for everyone.” So why should we be restricted to the Hindi community. Krsna says sarva yonisu, “In all forms of life, I am the seed giving father.” Why he should be simply Hindu? This point should be stressed. Sarva yoni means eighty four million..., eighty, eighty, eight million four hundred thousands, all forms. Krsna is for all of them. We therefore, why Krsna should be restricted to the Hindu community? Hindus are included but Krsna is not restricted to Hindus. Krsna’s picture, that Bal Gopal. He’s embracing the calves. Krsna does not embrace only the gopis, He’s embracing the calves also. That is Krsna. He’s equal to everyone. Mah hi partha vyapasritya ye ’pi syuh papa-yonayah. Papa-yonayah, so many low-grade forms of life, they’re also His.... Devotees are part and parcel. Mamaivamso ji... Quote this: Krsna is not restricted to the Hindu. We say, “We are not Hindu,” means we are not.... We embrace everyone. We are not restricted to the Hindus. The so-called Christians, so-called Mohammedans, they.... We embrace everyone, and actually we are doing that. Why should we simply be compact within the limitation of Hindus. That is not our purpose. Then we would not have come to western countries. We actually spreading universal brotherhood. Krsna is the father and everyone our brother. We are claiming, all our fallen brothers to become Krsna conscious. This is our movement. Caitanya Mahaprabhu (said) prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama, this is our movement. Why you should be restricted, to the India, and amongst the Hindus. (Room Conv. - Vrindavana 2/11/76)

So sad-dharma required. The, in this material world the so-called dharmas, this Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma and Christian dharma and Buddhist dharma and so many... They are not sad-dharma. They are asad-dharma. “Because I am born in the family of a Christian, I am Christian.” “Because I am born in the family of Hindu, I am Hindu.” And next time I may (be) born in the family of a dog. There is no dharma. So these are not sad-dharma. These are all asad-dharma, for the time being. Asad means “that will not stay.” You are Hindu. How long you are Hindu? Say, fifty years. Or you are Indian. How long you are Indian? Say, fifty, sixty, hundred years. But again you have to become something else. That we do not know. We are working very hard, “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Indian,” “I am American.” These upadhi. But the upadhi may be changed next moment. At any moment. So what is your real dharma? This is temporary dharma for the body. What is your real dharma? Real dharma is sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is sad-dharma. That is sad-dharma. That will continue eternally. (SB Lect - Bombay 11/11/74)

This is the position. We are many, and God is one. So if we accept one God, then where is the chance of different religious system? God is one. God is neither Christian nor Hindu or Muslim or... No. God is God. Just like gold. Gold is gold. Either in the Hindu community, or Muslim community, gold is gold. Because gold is there in some Hindu community, nobody says “Hindu gold.” Does anybody say, “It is Hindu gold” or “It is Christian gold”? No. Gold is gold. Similarly, God is one. There is no “Hindu God” or “Muslim God” or “Christian God.” This is mistake. “We believe God in this way...,” that is nonsense. No. God is one, and you have to see what is the characteristic of God. Just like when it is gold, everyone wants to see whether it is actually gold or imitation gold. That we have to see. There cannot be Hindu gold, Muslim gold, Christian gold. No. Simply you have to see whether it is actually gold, acceptable. That should be the subject matter of theology, to know actually what is God and to understand what is our relationship with God.
(SB Lecture - LA 26/6/75)

Prabhupada: Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Christian.” He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that “I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight.” This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law; I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and “I am Christian” or “Hindu” or “Mohammedan, so let us fight.” That’s all.
Dr. Kneupper: Do you think that there is a special way that Hinduism looks upon man’s place in the universe?
Prabhupada: The Hindu religion is a vague term. It is a vague term. It is not clear. It is not clear. Real term is, it is called, Vedic principle. Vedic principle. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is said: Vedic knowledge means to understand God. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. So anyone who tries to understand God, he is in the Vedic line. Veda means knowledge, so as you get the stock of knowledge, that is called Vedas. But as soon as we say Vedas, they think it is Hindu. Mathematics is a science. So any scientific man will accept mathematics. Where is the question of Hindu mathematics? Gold is gold. If it is in the hand of Hindu, it is Hindu gold? Hindu, Muslim gold? Gold is gold. When we give the Vedic knowledge, they think it is Hindu idea. (Room Conv. –Vrindavana 6/11/76)

So at the present moment, being entrapped by the material nature, we have accepted different types of dharmas. That is artificial. That is artificial. “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Christian,” “I am Buddhist,” “I am this,” “I am that.” These are all in relationship with this body. Accidentally if I am born in a Hindu family, or Muslim family, or Christian family, I identify myself, “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Christian.” But real identification is, as I have already explained to you, aham brahmasmi, I am Brahman. I am the spirit soul. (SB Lect. – Hyderebad 26/11/72)

Mahamsa: THEY WILL SAY THAT THIS KRSNA CULTURE IS HINDUISM.
Prabhupada: THEN HE’S A RASCAL. PROVE IT IN THE COURT. KRSNA IS NOT HINDUISM. NEVER.... Is there anything in the Bhagavad-gita that Krsna says, “I am for the Hindus or for the Indians”?
Acyutananda: The Hindu law is so elastic, anyone who calls himself a Hindu or who practices any branch...
Mahamsa: Or puts on tilaka.
Acyutananda: Puts on tilaka, he may have the lowest character or the highest standard, anyone, he will be all considered a Hindu.
Prabhupada: So this should be taken to court, on the Supreme Court.
Harikeça: But if there is no definition of Hindu, how can you prove...
Prabhupada: THERE IS NO HINDU. It is not.... THEREFORE WE ARE NOT HINDU.
Acyutananda: Well, they’ll say, “This is our definition. This is what we say a Hindu is.”
Prabhupada: Huh?
Acyutananda: The court says, “This is what we say a Hindu is. SO YOU’RE HINDUS.”
Prabhupada: NO, NO. And court can say anything, but then why not put it into the judgment of many judges?
Harikesa: Then we have to establish what is Hinduism...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: ...and what is Krsna consciousness.
Acyutananda: It is already established.
Prabhupada: You can define anything. That does not mean that your definition is perfect. Actually we have to.... Who...? Suppose Hindu. So who is not accepting Bhagavad-gita? But where is...? In the Bhagavad-gita where is the mention of “Hindu”? Hm? Krsna says that “I am the father of all living entities.” So WHY DO THEY SAY THAT THIS IS HINDUISM?
Acyutananda: “Well, all religions say that they are the best. Jesus Christ says, ‘Everyone who comes to me, they will get the grace of God.’ So the same thing. But still they are Christians and you are Hindus.”
Prabhupada: So this cannot stay in the court. Krsna’s instruction is not for the Hindus. Nowhere it is mentioned.
Tamala Krsna: The word “Hindu” doesn’t appear in the Vedas anywhere.
Acyutananda: Then why do you use in the Krsna consciousness the Hindu caste marks, Hindus caste marks and tilakas? This is all Hinduism.
Prabhupada: NO, THIS IS NOT HINDUISM. Appears like Hindu. Just like you appear like an Indian sannyasi, but you are not Indian.
Acyutananda: The judge is wearing a white wig and a British suit. He’s not British either.
Prabhupada: No, we are clearly stating Krsna consciousness.
Harikesa: Yes, but Krsna is a Hindu god.
Prabhupada: That is your definition. Krsna doesn’t say.
Harikesa: But my definition counts ’cause I’m in charge.
Prabhupada: You can do any nonsense. That is.... Therefore you have to be taken to the court, that “How you can...”
Tamala Krsna: But they are the court.
Prabhupada: “...talk like nonsense and do like nonsense? Then anyone can do any nonsense thing? Then who will control you?”
Harikesa: That’s the point.
Mahamsa: The chief justice himself was saying like that in Madras. Their opinion will come in their favor.
Prabhupada: No, they can give opinion, but there is supreme court. There is international court. We shall go...
Mahamsa: International court?
Gopala Krsna: That’s only for disputes between countries, international court.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is country—”We are American. They are forcing us to become a Hindu.” This is between country. You have to tackle with intelligence.
Mahamsa: It’s become a world issue.
Acyutananda: In most books about Hinduism they describe that Hinduism is a cult where they worship many gods and ultimately God is formless.
Prabhupada: No.
Acyutananda: So we are against that. Then we are not Hindus even philosophically according to that.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are against all so-called cheating religion. THE HINDUISM IS ALSO A CHEATING RELIGION. We are preaching Bhagavata, and Bhagavata beginning that “We have kicked out all cheating religion.” What is cheating religion? That one has to understand. And Bhagavata says, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [SB 6.3.19] “Religion means the order given by God.” If you do not know who is God, “imperson,” then where is your religion? We have to tackle things.
Gopala Krsna: They will consult all the standard dictionaries about Krsna’s definition and all the...
Prabhupada: Dictionary is not the standard. The standard is the book itself. That is our preaching. You may bring some dictionary made by some fools. No. We have to take reference. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is.
Acyutananda: Well, even Jesus Christ just said, “I am for all,” but there is Christianity.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. Either God or God’s representative, He is for everyone. Suhrdah sarva-bhutanam. That is the definition of sadhu. Titikaavah karunikah suhrdah sarva-bhutanam. A saintly person..., as God is for everyone, a saintly person is for everyone. Why he should be for Hindu or Muslim or Christian? That is the definition of saintly person. Suhrdah. Suhrdah means well-wisher. So either Christ or any Vaisnava, he is well-wisher for everyone. [break] ...suhrdah sarva-bhutanam. We are preaching all over the world and they are appreciating.
Harikesa: So many others have preached Hinduism but have no result.
Prabhupada: No result. Why they should become Hindu?
Acyutananda: That sign is there, “Swami Vivekananda, the Hindu monk.”
Prabhupada: But who cares for Ramakrishna Mission? Hindu monk, but who cares for the Ramakrishna Mission? For the last eighty-five years they are working. How many Hindus they have made? Simply bogus propaganda. They advertise that “We have made all Americans...” But where the Americans? They picked up two American ladies, that’s all. Where is the Hindu sadhus eating meat? [break]…
Prabhupada: Foreign devotees, they are joining this movement not because it is a Hindu culture. They take it as a real spiritual culture. Otherwise why, for the last hundred, two hundred years, the Hindu sannyasis, yogis, were going there? Who did accept it? Did anybody? (Morning Walk - 08/01/76)

This led to a long discussion whether our ISKCON temples could also be taken over. If they could, it would be on the basis of their being "Hindu" temples. So Srila Prabhupada, in order to avoid any government interference, suggested that we register the temples as American property. Apart from that, he said WE ARE NOT HINDU. The word Hindu isn't in the Bhagavad-gita, and the teachings of Bhagavad-gita are for everyone, not just Hindus. SRILA PRABHUPADA STRONGLY EMPHASIZED THIS POINT AND EVEN SAID THAT WE COULD GO TO COURT TO PROVE WE ARE NOT HINDUS. (Conversation 6/1/76 Anbdhra Pradesh - Hari Sauri Dasa –ATD)

Mahesh: The other Swamiji, Swami Kaivalya does not know English. You have heard of Swami Kaivalya?
Prabhupada: No, what is his philosophy? He is Vaisnava?
Mahesh: Hmmm, I think he is not Vaisnava. But actually, in our Hindu religion, all paths are same and all is one.
Prabhupada: All is one? So we can just take your building?
Mahesh: Ummm. Actually, Swamiji, there are many Hindu families here in Kobe. They are all interested in seeing you. All have heard of the famous Hare Krsna Swamiji. And everyone will be coming tonight. If the program is successful, they can support one Hindu temple for your devotees to run in Kobe.
Prabhupada: WHAT IS THIS HINDU? HINDU MEANS HODGE-PODGE. All is one. This is nonsense. Where is the word “Hindu” mentioned in Sastra? In Bhagavad-gita? In Vedas? Anywhere? Where is this “Hindu” mentioned even one time? Anyplace? One place?
Mahesh: Ummm.
Prabhupada: [To Mr. Santanam.]: You are born in a brahmana family. Any one place? No, this Hindu is a name given by Mohammedans. They cannot pronounce Indus River, so they are calling those on the other side Hindus in their own pronunciation. You know this?
[Pause.]
You don’t know. But you can learn. To learn, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master and hear from him. This is the process. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. We must serve him and inquire from him. Then he will train us to see the truth. By training we can develop.
M. Santanam: Swamiji, who is real guru?
Prabhupäda: A guru knows Krsna. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. His eyes are decorated with love of Krsna. He can see Krsna everywhere. Become trained by such a spiritual master, and then you will understand everything. WE ARE NOT HINDUS, AND WE ARE NOT TRAINING THESE BOYS TO BECOME HINDUS. We are training them to love Krsna, God. (SP Conversation Japan 1972 - Bhurijana Dasa MGM)

So this is the warm invitation of Krishna Consciousness. It has nothing to do with black or white, young or old, or believe me, Christian or Jew or Hindu or anything like that. We consider these to be as much a part of false ego—Christian, Hindu, Jew—as we do black, white, young, old, man or woman. Because they were delegated to this body—I'm born in a Christian family, I call myself a Christian; I'm born in a Hindu family, I call myself a Hindu—so because of this body I'm a Hindu, because of this body I'm a Jew, and if I was born a million years ago would I be a Hindu, Christian or Jew? No. But I'd still be a servant, I'd still have my consciousness. See? Suppose you're born a hundred thousand years from now? Are you going to be a Christian or a Hindu or a Jew? No. But you'll still have your consciousness, you'll still have to serve, and you'll still want to be happy. (VISNUJANA SWAMI - Festival Address Oregon 1/6/75)

[ichi wa zen]

Oi Rex, yes there are many things both Hinduism and Buddhism agree on. However they are not the same! Some big differences are:

-Hinduism believes in the eternal soul, atman. Buddhists do not.

-Hinduism believes in nature being eternal, brahman. Buddhists do not.

-Hinduism has Gods and worships them. Buddhist dont deny Gods but they dont concern themselves with things one can not know.

-Hinduists must live by caste. Buddhism teaches supreme compassion for all beings, everyone is equal.

-Hinduism believes in the Vedas. Buddhism dont believe in any Hindu scripture.

-Hinduists pursue 4 main aims, arthas. Buddhism does not.

Hinduism and Buddhism are very different! Now we all know that the brahmins werent very pleased with The Buddha and his compassion for all as it messed with their caste system. Many scriptures of The Buddha have been defiled by those same brahmins. I have little sympathy for these actions i must say. Please dont try to compare these 2 religions because its like water and fire.

REPLY TO Pilgrim..........I am talking to Rex here. We all know you dont know anything yourself but only stick to Copy-n-Paste Bhagavad Gita stuff and That Guru you always Spam stuff. Talk from your own wisdom please or perhaps you have none?

Buddhism is not what Brahmins teach. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

[pilgrim]

Now we all know that the brahmins werent very pleased with The Buddha and his compassion for all as it messed with their caste system...
Lord Buddha was predicted in the Vedas over 2000 years before he appeared:

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.23:
“Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya,
just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.”

Please See Thread Here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18959

[ichi wa zen]

What does your post has to say about the difference between Buddhism and Brahmins?

Nothing!

Please explain Atman and Brahman and why Brahmins teach the existence of those while The Buddha did not...............

In your own words please and not 2.000.000 words Copy-n-Pasted from some book or "guru".

[pilgrim]

Buddhism is not what Brahmins teach. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
How long did it take you to work that out, all by yourself?

Did you also know that:

Taoism is not what Christians teach.
Islam is not what Jews teach.
Zen is not what Muslims teach.
etc, etc, etc...
:rolleyes:

[ichi wa zen]

How long did it take you to work that out, all by yourself?

Did you also know that:

Taoism is not what Christians teach.
Islam is not what Jews teach.
Zen is not what Muslims teach.
etc, etc, etc...
:rolleyes:

It took me a while because I was eating Ramen, oishikatta desu!

Thats why i told you i am talking with Rex, who i value a lot more than Copy-n-Paste Wisdom type of guys........sorta like those preechers always preaching from their books on sunday then when they get home rape little boys type of people.

This may be offtopic but i am discussing the difference between Brahmins and Buddhism. You seem to know nothing about either. I will study your "guru" and slap you in the face with his crap. Surely Prhauhbaupuahda teaches the eternal Atman and Brahman etc. Its just new Hindu stuff rehashed.

[pilgrim]

What does your post has to say about the difference between Buddhism and Brahmins?

That's easy!

Buddhism is a religious faith / way of life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

A REAL Brahmin is a teacher & holy man who lives a simple, pure life and has all good qualities.
A fake CASTE Brahmin is a cheater with no good qualities who exploits others on the basis of their birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin

Please explain Atman and Brahman and why Brahmins teach the existence of those while The Buddha did not...............
In your own words please and not 2.000.000 words Copy-n-Pasted from some book or "guru".
Atman is us, the individual spirit souls.
Brahman is God, the supreme spirit soul.
The Atman are the sparks, Brahman is the fire.
We are the drops, He is the ocean.

[ichi wa zen]

That's easy!

Buddhism is a religious faith / way of life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Muwhahahah your knowledge on Buddhism is what Wikipedia says? LMAO! You know NADA! Religious FAITH? Hahah Buddhism is not about BELIEF or FAITH, you couldnt be further from the truth, its about experience, direct experience of reality as it is.

Stick to Prhanuhaphaa and dont concern yourself with Buddhism.

[pilgrim]

Lord Buddha taught 'Ahimsa' (non-violence), right?
Therefore if you eat meat, you are not a real Buddhist.
Simple as that. ;)

[ichi wa zen]

Lord Buddha taught 'Ahimsa' (non-violence), right?
Therefore if you eat meat, you are not a real Buddhist.
Simple as that. ;)

I am not Buddhist! Buddhism has become another evil ISM. The Buddhas teachings have been defiled.

I consider myself THE GREAT IGNORANT ONE WHO KNOWS THAT HE KNOWS NOTHING and yes i eat meat every now and then. I am not a cow, i have teeth which can cut meat.

For now i have to go,

Piece Out Pilgrim!

[pilgrim]

Muwhahahah your knowledge on Buddhism is what Wikipedia says?
No, i put the wikipedia links to show that the difference between Buddhism & Brahmins was so obvious.
You know NADA! Religious FAITH? Hahah Buddhism is not about BELIEF or FAITH, you couldnt be further from the truth, its about experience, direct experience of reality as it is.

I practiced and studied Buddhism for about 2 years, 20 years ago.
So, i do know what Buddhism is. ;)

I have studied and practiced Krishna Consciousness for 20 years.
So, i also know what it is. :)

You have not studied or practiced Krishna Consciousness ever.
Therefore you do not know what that is. :rolleyes:


Stick to Prhanuhaphaa and dont concern yourself with Buddhism.
Thanks for the excellent advice!
I came to that conclusion myself 20 years ago.
(BTW, the correct spelling is: P, R, A, B, H, U, P, A, D, A. - Prabhupada.)

[synergy777]

buddha was an indian, hindu, just like yashuah was a jew. they came to correct not start religions in their own name, the priesthood hated the message of buddha and yashuah and thus took control. same way the priesthood has corrupted krishna's message/hinduism.

i am indian, i know first hand the corruption, the caste/class/eugenics system is complete satanic bullshit and the priesthood keep it. btw i am a high caste aswell, so i am not saying out of hate/jealously.

there are no castes, the caste of mankind is one - sikhism.

unlike other religions the priesthood could kill the peaceful followers, we sikhs fight back, to uphold dharma, to fight for the oppressed wherever they are, whatever religion they are.

[pilgrim]

I consider myself THE GREAT IGNORANT ONE WHO KNOWS THAT HE KNOWS NOTHING..
Ichi, you trawl these forums arrogantly putting down everything that isn't your precious Zen.
Yet you say you are IGNORANT and that you KNOW NOTHING.
This is called hypocrisy.

..and yes i eat meat..
If you support the Illuminati's animal-killing, meat industry you are implicated in the slaughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

Arrogance, hypocrisy and violence?
I do not think these activities are very Zen :rolleyes:
Krishna came in His Buddha incarnation to teach rascals to "sit in the corner and be quiet", so they would not be a disturbance to everybody else!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guest: Buddha taught very similar things to what the Gita taught also, didn’t he? Are there agreeances there, agreement in certain places what Buddha taught and what the Gita teaches?
Prabhupada: Do you follow this Buddha?
Guest: Uh, no.
Prabhupäda: You simply talk of him? You practice Buddha if you appreciate him. You give up everything like Buddha and meditate. But that you will not do. Then what is the talking of, useless talking about this? Do something. Either you believe Buddha or Jesus Christ or Krsna. Do something. Don’t talk simply. Lord Buddha is very nice. He gave up his kingdom in youthful life. He was prince. He thought, “It is all nonsense. Let me meditate.” Do like that. That is the disease. We won’t do anything. We talk much of this, that, this, that. Do anything, but do it perfectly. “Jack of all trade, master of none.” That is not good. Be master of something. It doesn’t differ. Either you follow Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha or Krsna, it doesn’t matter much. But do it perfectly. That is our request.
(Conversation 10/05/69)

And the next incarnation is Lord Buddha. Lord Buddha, He decried the Vedic principles. Therefore He is calculated as atheist. Anyone who does not agree with the Vedic principles, he is considered as atheist. Just like one who does not believe in the Bible, they are called heathens, similarly, those who do not accept the Vedic principles, they are called atheists. So Lord Buddha although incarnation of Krsna, He said that “I do not believe in Vedas.” What was the reason? The reason was to save the poor animals. At that time people were sacrificing the poor animals under the plea of Vedic sacrifice. So demonic persons, they want to do something under the protection of authority. Just like a big lawyer takes the protection of the lawbook and he makes the law unlawful. Similarly, the demons are so intelligent that they take advantage of scriptural injunction and do all nonsense. So these things were going on. In the name of Vedic sacrifice, they were killing animals like anything. So Lord became very much compassionate these poor animals, and He appeared as Lord Buddha, and His philosophy was nonviolence. His philosophy was atheist because He said that “There is no God. This combination of matter is a manifestation, and you dismantle the material elements, there will be void and there will be no sense of pleasure and pain. That is the nirvana, ultimate goal of life.” That was His philosophy. But actually His mission was to stop animal killing, to stop the men from so much sinful activities. So Lord Buddha is also prayed herewith. So people will be surprised that Lord Buddha is designated as atheist and still the Vaisnavas, they are offering their respectful prayers to Lord Visnu (Buddha). Why? Because the Vaisnava knows how the God is acting for His different purposes. Others, they do not know.
(Lecture 19/02/70)

[ichi wa zen]

I practiced and studied Buddhism for about 2 years, 20 years ago. So, i do know what Buddhism is. ;)

Impossible! You cant "study" Buddhism for 2 years and then move on to some other stuff. You either "study" Buddhism for infinity or you failed to grasp its meaning.

Ichi, you trawl these forums arrogantly putting down everything that isn't your precious Zen.

Zen is everything and nothing at the same time.

Yet you say you are IGNORANT and that you KNOW NOTHING.This is called hypocrisy.

This is you showing us you are trapped in Dualistic Thinking.

[octopusrex]

The dialogue between Zen and Pilgrim continues while somewhere in Irak, Afghanistan and Gods know where else, a Muslim and a Christian are trying to kill each other in the name of God.

[ichi wa zen]

The dialogue between Zen and Pilgrim continues while somewhere in Irak, Afghanistan and Gods know where else, a Muslim and a Christian are trying to kill each other in the name of God.

Yes, why are you on here and not there in Iraq trying to save them? HELLO?

[pilgrim]

The dialogue between Zen and Pilgrim continues while somewhere in Irak, Afghanistan and Gods know where else, a Muslim and a Christian are trying to kill each other in the name of God.
?

Octopusrex continues to eat food, smoke weed and post glib comments on the David Icke forums, while somewhere in Africa, children are starving to death because of corrupt governments.

John & Mary discuss the weather while somewhere in Japan, two Sumo wrestlers prepare for competition for a big cash prize.

Etc. etc. etc... :rolleyes:

Anyway, i really like Ichi Wa Zen, he's funny.

[ichi wa zen]

I do agree in some way with Rex though.

Discussing East and West is useless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

We need to unite people of all religions, hare krishnas, muslims, all creeds, all colours, gay, hetero's, buddhists, taoists, bisexuals, meatlovers and planteatingpeople, lefties, righties, drugs abusers and black magicians.

This world will never become One if we see ourselves as seperate!

[octopusrex]

I do agree in some way with Rex though.

Discussing East and West is useless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

We need to unite people of all religions, hare krishnas, muslims, all creeds, all colours, gay, hetero's, buddhists, taoists, bisexuals, meatlovers and planteatingpeople, lefties, righties, drugs abusers and black magicians.

This world will never become One if we see ourselves as seperate!

You answered your own question chico.

About the Africans.. I had a perfect solution to that... You feed the Africans to the Mexicans and then you sell the Mexicans to the Americans and bingo.. One world order.

[ichi wa zen]

You answered your own question chico.

Yes, i am GREAT HUH! :p

They have a saying in Japan which i love = Ningen wa Ningen: Humans are Humans.

I (We) am (are) not perfect Rex, you should know this :D

[ichi wa zen]

Octopusrex continues to eat food

OMG, i am guilty too Pilgrim. I eat food! :D

PS how do you get by without eating food, you must be God! ;)

[pilgrim]

We need to unite people of all religions, hare krishnas, muslims, all creeds, all colours, gay, hetero's, buddhists, taoists, bisexuals, meatlovers and planteatingpeople, lefties, righties, drugs abusers and black magicians.
This world will never become One if we see ourselves as seperate!
Very nice Ichi, i hope you put your words into action. :)
That means no more disrepect from you for other peoples beliefs on this forum.
I'll be watching, with your words above, ready to be quoted. ;)

[pilgrim]

OMG, i am guilty too Pilgrim. I eat food! :D
PS how do you get by without eating food, you must be God! ;)
:rolleyes:
Every living creature needs to eat, but we should be thankful to God for every mouthful of food He has provided for us.

[ichi wa zen]

That means no more disrepect from you for other peoples beliefs on this forum. I'll be watching, with your words above, ready to be quoted. ;)

No Can Do. When i see someone say something stupid i will kick their ass! This is the purpose of forums!

[pilgrim]

No Can Do. When i see someone say something stupid i will kick their ass! This is the purpose of forums!
:confused:
This forum is for sharing information.
You are beyond hope Ichi.
Have fun kicking your own ass!
Goodbye.
:)

[ichi wa zen]

:confused:
This forum is for sharing information.
You are beyond hope Ichi.
Have fun kicking your own ass!
Goodbye.
:)

You do understand jokes right? You know laughs? Fun? Smile? Weird faces? Not taking things seriously? To frolic? Ants in Pants?

Life is a Joke, please dont take it too seriously Mr. Pilgrim!

[pilgrim]

Life is a Joke, please dont take it too seriously Mr. Pilgrim!
You are a joke, Goodbye!

[ichi wa zen]

You are a joke, Goodbye!

This is why the world will not become One just yet! Theres people like Mr. Pilgrim around!

Be like Mr. Genki Sudo! Go Go Go!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w189/prb01/8012581979.jpg

[octopusrex]

Vaisnavas, Zen, are there to teach you how to discriminate.
This too, has value in the spiritual quest.
Lord Siva, the destroyer of worlds is a Vaisnava.

Yet?

The world is always one, folks just fail to see it.

[pilgrim]

"The Science of Self-Realization"

Online Books

http://causelessmercy.com/


Online Audio
(Lectures, Conversations, Interviews, etc.)

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/


http://myspace-225.vo.llnwd.net/01423/52/29/1423689225_l.jpg

[octopusrex]

Again, I must stress the importance of this thread.

During WWIII, a holy war that threatens to destroy all civilization and possibly the entire human race, a Zen student and a Vaisnava dialogue about the nature of reality and God.

[pilgrim]

Everybody is looking for Krsna.

Some don’t realize that they are, but they are.

KRSNA is GOD, the source of all that exists, the Cause of all that is, was, or ever will be.

As GOD is unlimited, HE has many Names.

Allah-Buddha-Jehova-Rama: ALL are KRSNA, all are ONE.

GOD is not abstract ; He has both the impersonal and the personal aspects to His personality which is SUPREME, ETERNAL, BLISSFUL, and full of KNOWLEDGE. As a single drop of water has the same qualities as an ocean of water, so has our consciousness the qualities of GOD’S consciousness … but through our identification and attachment with material energy (physical body, sense pleasures, material possessions, ego, etc.) our true TRANSCENDENTAL CONSCIOUSNESS has been polluted, and like a dirty mirror it is unable to reflect a pure image.

With many lives our association with the TEMPORARY has grown. This impermanent body, a bag of bones and flesh, is mistaken for our true self, and we have accepted this temporary condition to be final.

Through all ages, great SAINTS have remained as living proof that this non-temporary, permanent state of GOD CONSCIOUSNESS can be revived in all living Souls. Each soul is potentially divine.

Krsna says in Bhagavad Gita: “Steady in the Self, being freed from all material contamination, the yogi achieves the highest perfectional stage of happiness in touch with the Supreme Consciousness.” (VI, 28)

YOGA (a scientific method for GOD (SELF) realization) is the process by which we purify our consciousness, stop further pollution, and arrive at the state of Perfection, full KNOWLEDGE, full BLISS.

If there’s a God, I want to see Him. It’s pointless to believe in something without proof, and Krsna Consciousness and meditation are methods where you can actually obtain GOD perception. You can actually see God, and hear Him, play with Him. It might sound crazy, but He is actually there, actually with you.

There are many yogic Paths-Raja, Jnana, Hatha, Kriya, Karma, Bhakti-which are all acclaimed by the MASTERS of each method.

SWAMI BHAKTIVEDANTA is as his title says, a BHAKTI Yogi following the path of DEVOTION. By serving GOD through each thought, word and DEED, and by chanting HIS Holy Names, the devotee quickly develops God-consciousness. By chanting:

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna
Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

One inevitably arrives at KRSNA Consciousness. (The proof of the pudding is in the eating!)

I request that you take advantage of this book KrsnA, and enter into its understanding. I also request that you make an appointment to meet your God now, through the self liberating process of YOGA (UNION) and GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.

All you need is Love (Krishna) Hari Bol.
George Harrison 31/3/70

Preface to 'KRSNA, The Supreme Personality of Godhead':
http://causelessmercy.com/KB.htm

[pilgrim]

'Glimpse of the Spiritual World'
Public Address by Srila Prabhupada - 12 July 1975 Philadelphia

Listen: http://prabhupadaradio.com/M3U/Lectures/m3u/083LCT.m3u

Prabhupada: Ladies and gentlemen, first of all I wish to thank you, the inhabitants of this great city, Philadelphia. You are so kind, enthusiastic, in taking part in this movement. So I am very much obliged to you. I am especially obliged to the American boys and girls who are helping me so much in spreading this Krsna consciousness movement in the Western countries. I was ordered by my spiritual master to preach this Krsna consciousness in the Western countries. So in 1965 I first came in New York. Then in 1966 this society was regularly registered in New York, and from 1967 this movement is regularly going on in America, Europe, Canada, and south of Pacific Ocean, Australia, and throughout the whole world.

So I may inform you little about this movement, Krsna consciousness. Krsna, this word, means all-attractive. Krsna is attractive to every living entities, not only human being, even the animals, birds, bees, trees, flowers, fruits, water. That is the picture of Vrndavana. This is material world. We have no experience of the spiritual world. But we can get an glimpse idea, what is spirit and what is matter. Just try to understand the difference between a living man and a dead body. The dead body means as soon as the living force within the body is gone, then it is dead matter, useless. And so long the living force is there, the body is very important. So as we experience in this body, there is something as dead matter and something as living force, similarly, there are two worlds: the material world and the spiritual world. We living entities, every one of us, we belong to the spiritual world. We do not belong to the material world. Some way or other, we are now in contact with this material world and material body, and the business is that although we are eternal living force, on account of our contact with this material body, we have to take four tribulations: birth, death, disease and old age. That we have to undergo. In this material world we are getting one type of body, and it is ended at a certain stage. Just like any material thing. You take, for example, of your dress. You are dressed with a certain type of garment, but when it is worn out, no more usable, then you throw it, you get another dress. So this material body is the dress of the spirit living force. But because we are attached to this material world, we want to enjoy this material world, we get different types of body. It is explained in the Bhagavad-gita as a machine. Actually it is machine, this body. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said,

isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
[Bg. 18.61]

So we living entity, we desire. "Man proposes; God disposes." God is very kind. Whatever you desire, He will fulfill. Although He says that "This kind of material desires will never satisfy you," but we want. Therefore God supplies us, Krsna, different types of body to fulfill our different desires. This is called material, conditional life. This body, change of body according to desire, is called evolutionary process. By evolution we come to the human form of body through many other millions bodies. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. We pass through 900,000 species of form in the water. Similarly, two million forms as plants, trees. In this way, by nature's way, nature brings us into this human form of life just to develop or awaken our consciousness. Nature gives us the chance, "Now what do you want to do? Now you have got developed consciousness. Now you again want to go to the evolutionary process, or you want to go to the higher planetary system, or you want to go to God, Krsna, or you want to remain here?" These options are there. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,

yanti deva-vrata devan
pitrn yanti pitr-vratah
bhutejya yanti bhutani
mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam
[Bg. 9.25]

Now make your selection. If you want to go to the higher planetary system, you can go. If you want to remain here, in the middle planetary system, you can do so. And if you want to go to the lower planetary system, that you can do. And if you want to go to God, Krsna, that also you can do. It is up to your option. Therefore, what is the difference between this material world, maybe in the higher planetary system or in the lower planetary system, and what is the spiritual world? The spiritual world means there is no material consumption. Everything is spirit, as I told you. The trees, the flowers, the fruits, the water, the animals -- everything is spiritual. So there is no annihilation. It is eternal. So if you want to go to that spiritual world, then you can have this opportunity now in this human form of life, and if you want to remain in this material world, you can do so.

So our movement is that "Why not stop this material, conditional life, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease?" This is intelligence. "Why should we remain in this material body and undergo repetition change of body? Let us have our original, spiritual body." That is wanted. That is intelligence. The human life is therefore meant, as it is stated in the Vedanta philosophy, athato brahma jijnasa: "Now this life is meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth." So that is required. That is human intelligence. And if we spoil our life like the animals... They are also eating; we are also eating. They are also sleeping; we are also sleeping. They are also having sex intercourse; we are also having sex intercourse. They are also defending; we are also defending. These four principles are common to the human being and to the animal. The special advantage of human being is that if he likes, he can stop this repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to educate people about this science, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. It is not a so-called religious movement. Of course, anything which has connection with God, you can take it as religious movement. But it is very scientific movement. For the big scientists, philosophers, thinkers, they should try to understand this movement. We have got fifty-seven books for convincing the philosophers, scientists. If you want to know the value of this movement through science, philosophy, we have got enough ingredients to supply you. Otherwise, it is simple, very simple. Simply chant this mantra,

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

Then everything will be manifest to you. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This chanting of Hare Krsna mantra means cleansing the core of your heart. Because our heart or mind or consciousness is now covered with so many dirty things. So if we chant this Hare Krsna mantra, then these dirty things will be cleansed. Then we shall be able to see "What I am, what is my position, what is my goal of life, what I have to do." This is human consideration. The dogs, cats, they cannot do that. But a human being, they can do it very nicely.

So on account of this, you will find that these young men, not only from your country but in other countries also, in Africa, in Australia, in Canada, in Europe, in Asia -- everywhere -- as soon as they are understanding this philosophy, they are joining this movement. And it is not very difficult. We don't charge anything for selling Hare Krsna mantra. We are chanting everywhere. That you saw, this Ratha-yatra. Now, our only means is chanting Hare Krsna. And these thousands of men are following simply by chanting Hare Krsna mantra. So you can understand what is the potency of this Hare Krsna mantra. We do not pay anything, you ladies and gentlemen, to follow us. But we simply chant Hare Krsna. So it is very potential. Narottama dasa Thakura, a great acarya of Vaisnava sampradaya, he has sung, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nama-sankirtana. This Hare Krsna movement, or chanting of Hare Krsna, it is not anything material. Therefore you will never feel tired chanting Hare Krsna. You see practically. You go on chanting twenty-four hours; you will never feel tired. Therefore it is said, golokera prema-dhana. This chanting vibration is coming from the spiritual world. Just like you receive material sound vibration in the radios or television from distant place, there is another machine which can receive the vibration in the spiritual world. So that vibration is Hare Krsna mantra.

golokera prema-dhana,
hari-nama-sankirtana,
rati na janmilo kene tay

"Oh, I am so unfortunate that I did not get any attachment for chanting this Hare Krsna mantra." Samsara-davanale, diba-nisi hiya jwale. The samsara, this material world, is very uncomfortable place. Everyone is always full of anxiety. However rich you may be, however powerful you may be, but the anxiety must be there. You can understand, your president Nixon, how much anxiety he had when all people wanted him to come down. So this material world means in whichever position you may be situated, it doesn't matter. It is full of anxiety. This is called blazing fire, always burning the heart. So if you want to get relief from this uncomfortable position of anxiety, then you must take to this Hare Krsna mantra. This is our request. You can try for it and you will see the practical result. It will not cost you anything; there is no loss about it.

So our only request is, with folded hands and begging you, so many flatterings, we simply request... Dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya. This is our process. We are not very violent pushing. Now, you see our procession came, so many, for three hours. There was no violence. And the police department of your country, they very much appreciate because they have got experience whenever there is some procession, there is violence. "Window-breaking crowd," they say. But these people are not win-breaking crowd. So this Krsna consciousness movement... You have already accepted it, this movement, your so many young men. So we request. This is another occasion to invite you. So our only request is that you chant Hare Krsna mantra, and you will feel very much happy. There will be no anxiety. And then you can do your work. It doesn't matter what you are doing. But chanting of this Hare Krsna mantra will make you more and more happy, free from material anxieties, and if we continue this process, then everything will be clearly understood about spiritual life, and very easily we shall be able to go back to home, back to Godhead.

[octopusrex]

You know, Pilgrim....

The advice of the Vedas is to worship Kali during Kali-Yuga as the doorway to Krsna.

[pilgrim]

You know, Pilgrim....
The advice of the Vedas is to worship Kali during Kali-Yuga as the doorway to Krsna.
I don't think so. Please quote (or direct me to) the Vedic references.
(& Do you mean Mother Kali or the personality of the age of Kali?)

[octopusrex]

I don't think so. Please quote (or direct me to) the Vedic references.
(& Do you mean Mother Kali or the personality of the age of Kali?)

Of course I mean Ma Durga. I have a copy of the Devi Purana. Its a hard document to read because as you read it, physical manisfestation of what you are reading begin to occur. Ma Durga...

Is the real Capi di tuti Capi.

I have not even finished the first sloka. And things have been set in motion by it.

I should add that today I ate buffalo meat, sanctified to Lord Siva first. Meat eating amongst Sivaites is not unknown.

[pilgrim]

Of course I mean Ma Durga. I have a copy of the Devi Purana. Its a hard document to read because as you read it, physical manisfestation of what you are reading begin to occur. Ma Durga...

Is the real Capi di tuti Capi.

I have not even finished the first sloka. And things have been set in motion by it.

I should add that today I ate buffalo meat, sanctified to Lord Siva first. Meat eating amongst Sivaites is not unknown.
You are a nonsense. :rolleyes:

[octopusrex]

You are a nonsense. :rolleyes:

Thats what Paramadveiti said when I asked iniciation. I told him I could only be his student if he allowed me to continue working with my medicine. He declined.

Careful, pilgrim: "Judge not least you be judged".

[izzy]

hare krishna was really good to me when I had no money, they had a food kitehcen you could visit.. this was 15 years ago.

every day I had this fantastic meal for free, they were amazing, the kitchen was in the flat below me, they did chant in the morning and sometimes I heard them but they were cool.

In fact I feel a bit guilty really - for two weeks they fed me and my friends and a few times they asked us to help sweep the floor and we said we were too busy .. and walked away giiggling with our free food .. how awful was that ...

I have never forgotten their kindness though ... and I love their philosophy of unity and kindness towards all beings ..

they walk their talk and I respect them .. for the light they bring to this planet

[octopusrex]

hare krishna was really good to me when I had no money, they had a food kitehcen you could visit.. this was 15 years ago.

every day I had this fantastic meal for free, they were amazing, the kitchen was in the flat below me, they did chant in the morning and sometimes I heard them but they were cool.

In fact I feel a bit guilty really - for two weeks they fed me and my friends and a few times they asked us to help sweep the floor and we said we were too busy .. and walked away giiggling with our free food .. how awful was that ...

I have never forgotten their kindness though ... and I love their philosophy of unity and kindness towards all beings ..

they walk their talk and I respect them .. for the light they bring to this planet

Absolutely.

[mushimushi]

Mark Twain (1835-1910)

"Land of religions, cradle of human race, birthplace of human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother of tradition. The land that men with intellectual bent desire to see and having seen once even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for the shows of the rest of the globe combined."

Julius Robert Oppenheimer (1904-1967) Nuclear physicist, philosopher

"Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries."

-------- T. S. Eliot

" Indian philosophers' subtleties make most of the great European philosophers look like schoolboys."

Sir William Jones, English philologist

"Wherever we direct our attention to Hindu literature, the notion of infinity presents itself."

George Bernard Shaw, (1856-1950) Dramatist, Nobel Laureate in Literature

"The Indian way of life provides the vision of the natural, real way of life. We western veil ourselves with unnatural masks. On the face of India are the tender expressions which carry the mark of the Creators hand. "

H. G. Wells (1866-1946), English author and political philosopher

There is space in its philosophy for everyone,
which is one reason why India is a home to every single religion in the world..

George Bernard Shaw

"This makes Hinduism the most tolerant religion in the world, because its one transcendent God includes all possible gods. In fact Hinduism is so elastic and so subtle that the most profound Methodist, and crudest idolater, are equally at home with it."

Professor F. Max Muller , German philosopher and philologist

"In the history of the world, the Vedas fill a gap which no literary work in any other language could fill. I maintain that to everybody who cares for himself, for his ancestors, for his intellectual development, a study of the Vedic literature is indeed indispensable."

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), German philosopher and writer

"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life; and it will be the solace of my death. They are the product of the highest wisdom."

Francois Marie Voltaire (1694-1774) France's greatest writers and philosophers

" I am convinced that everything has come down to us from the banks of the Ganga --- astronomy, astrology, metempsychosis, etc."
" It is very important to note that some 2,500 years ago at the least Pythagoras went from Samos to the Ganga (Ganges) to learn geometry...But he would certainly not have undertaken such a strange journey had the reputation of the Brahmins' science not been long established in Europe..."

Friedrich Hegel (1770-1831), German philosopher

"India has created a special momentum in world history as a country to be searched for knowledge."

Friedrich Hegel (1770-1831), German philosopher

"It strikes everyone in beginning to form an acquaintance with the treasures of Indian literature, that a land so rich in intellectual products and those of the profoundest order of thought..."

Roger-Pol Droit French philosopher, and Le Monde journalist,

"The Greeks loved so much Indian philosophy that Demetrios Galianos had even translated the Bhagavad-Gita". There is absolutely not a shadow of a doubt that the Greeks knew all about Indian philosophy."

Frederich von Schlegel, (1772-1829), German philosopher, critic, and writer, the most prominent founder of German Romanticism

"There is no language in the world, even Greek, which has the clarity and the philosophical precision of Sanskrit," adding that " India is not only at the origin of everything she is superior in everything, intellectually, religiously or politically and even the Greek heritage seems pale in comparison."

----- Voltaire, (1694-1774), France's greatest writers and philosophers

"the Veda was the most precious gift for which the West had ever been indebted to the East."

The Upanishads

As is the human body, so is the cosmic body
As is the human mind, so is the cosmic mind.
As is the microcosm, so is the macrocosm.
As is the atom, so is the universe.

Alfred North Whitehead, British Mathematician

The vastest knowledge of today cannot transcend the buddhi of the Rishis in ancient India; and science, in its most advanced stage now, is closer to Vedanta than ever before.

Dr. Fritjof Capra, American physicist

To the Indian Rishis the divine play was the evolution of the cosmos through countless aeons. There is an infinite number of creations in an infinite universe. The Rishis gave the name kalpa to the unimaginable span of time between the beginning and the end of creation.

Herman Hesse (1877-1962) German poet and novelist, awarded the Nobel Prize for literature in 1946 says:

"The marvel of the Bhagavad-Gita is its truly beautiful revelation of life's wisdom which enables philosophy to blossom into religion."

Ella Wheeler Wilcox, (1850-1919) famous American poet and journalist

" India - the land of Vedas, the remarkable works contains not only religious ideas for a perfect life, but also facts which science has proved true. Electricity, radium, electronics, airship, all are known to the seers who founded the Veda.

Hans Torwesten, German philosopher and writer

The Vedas and the Upanishads are India's proudest and most ancient possessions. They are the world's oldest intellectual legacies. They are the only composition in the universe invested with Divine origin, and almost Divine sanctity. They are said to emanate from God, and are held to be the means for attaining God. Their beginnings are not known. They have been heirlooms of the Hindus from generation to generation from time immemorial.

Professor F. Max Muller, German philosopher , philologist

"The Vedic literature opens to us a chapter in what has been called the education of the human race, to which we can find no parallel anywhere else."

Ella Wheeler Wilcox, (1850-1919) famous American poet and journalist

" India - the land of Vedas, the remarkable works contains not only religious ideas for a perfect life, but also facts which science has proved true. Electricity, radium, electronics, airship, all are known to the seers who founded the Vedas."

Jean-Sylvain Bailly, French Astronomer who calculated the orbit for the Halley's Comet

"The motion of the stars calculated by the Hindus before some 4500 years vary not even a single minute from the tables of Cassine and Meyer (used in the 19-th century). The Indian tables give the same annual variation of the moon as the discovered by Tycho Brahe - a variation unknown to the school of Alexandria and also to the Arabs who followed the calculations of the school... "The Hindu systems of astronomy are by far the oldest and that from which the Egyptians, Greek, Romans and - even the Jews derived from the Hindus their knowledge."

------ Aldous Huxley

"Hinduism, the perennial philosophy" that is at the core of all religions.

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), German philosopher and writer

"How entirely does the Upanishad breathe throughout the holy spirit of the Vedas! How is every one, who by a diligent study of its Persian Latin has become familiar with that incomparable book, stirred by that spirit to the very depth of his Soul !"

Romain Rolland (1866-1944) French Nobel laureate, Historian

"Religious faith in the case of the Hindus has never been allowed to run counter to scientific laws, moreover the former is never made a condition for the knowledge they teach, but there are always scrupulously careful to take into consideration the possibility that by reason both the agnostic and atheist may attain truth in their own way. Such tolerance may be surprising to religious believers in the West, but it is an integral part of Vedantic belief."

Julius Robert Oppenheimer (1904-1967) Nuclear physicist, philosopher, developer of the atomic bomb

"The Gita, the most beautiful philosophical song existing in any known tongue."

H. G. Wells (1866-1946), English author and political philosopher

Hinduism is synonymous with humanism. That is its essence and its great liberating quality."

Lord Curzon (1859-1925) British statesman, Viceroy of India from 1899 to 1905, and later became chancellor of Oxford University

" India has left a deeper mark upon the history, the philosophy, and the religion of mankind,
than any other terrestrial unit in the universe."

William Butler Yeats (1856-1939) Irish poet, dramatist, and essayist and Nobel Laureate

"It was only my first meeting with the Indian philosophy that confirmed my
vague speculations and seemed at once logical and boundless."

Mark Tully former BBC correspondent in India, author

But I do profoundly believe that India needs to be able to say with pride,
"Yes, our civilization has a Hindu base to it."

Paul William Roberts Professor at Oxford , award-winning television writer, producer, journalist, critic and novelist.

"India is the only country that feels like home to me,
the only country whose airport tarmac I have ever kissed upon landing."

Pierre Simon de Laplace ( 1749-1827) French mathematician, philosopher, and astronomer, a contemporary of Napoleon. Laplace is best known for his nebular hypothesis of the origin of the solar system.

" It is India that gave us the ingenious method of expressing all numbers by ten symbols, each receiving a value of position as well as an absolute value, a profound and important idea which appears so simple to us now that we ignore its true merit. But its very simplicity, the great ease which it has lent to all computations, puts our arithmetic in the first rank of useful inventions, and we shall appreciate the grandeur of this achievement the more when we remember that it escaped the genius of Archimedes and Appollnius, two of the greatest men produced by antiquity."

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna - Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare!

Hare Rama, Hare Rama - Rama Rama, Hare Hare!

Srila Prabupada kiJay!

[octopusrex]

Boils down to this, really:

Who shall inherit the earth and rule over it?

The House of David?

The Pandavas?

Of course, if we read the Bhagavad Gita, we know the Pandavas are extinct. But then, they are never really extinct, are they? Because Goloka Brindavan is eternal and blah, blah.

However, the House of David and their Champion-King have a big issue (as do all those who are true Muslims) in Idolatry, which means, giving food to Idols. Funny thing, that, because Christ himself asks his disciples to remember them when they eat and drink.

In a Holy War, it is good to know who is who and which way one has to turn to look for the truth. I, for one, will turn to the Maya. But the funniest thing about that is that "Maya" means illusion!

And they kinda worship a Serpent.

[mysteria]

Why Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Never Received Initiation from Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji

1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence) I might as well claim that I received a dream-initiation from Sri Rupa Gosvami. Who can confirm or deny it? In this way the whole principle of initiation is undermined and made into a laughing stock. In Sri Isana Nagara's Advaita Prakasa (8.118-122) it is described how Sita-devi, the consort of Advaita Prabhu, received initiation in a dream from Srila Madhavendra Puri, but that Advaita Prabhu still found it necessary to give her a concrete, audible initiation.


sita kohe bahu bhagye toma painu dekha
dehatma sodhana koro diya mantra diksa
tabe puri sitare krsna mantra dila
jagi sita mata kohe kiba camatkare
svapnavese puriraja mantra dila more
acarye kohila sita sarva vivarana
tiho kohe bhagye tuya khandila bandhana
prabhu sei mantra puna vidhi anusare
subha ksane samarpila sva bharya sita re

"Sita devi told Madhavendra Puri: "I am very fortunate to meet you. Please sanctify my body and soul by giving me mantra initiation." Then Madhavendra Puri gave Sita krsna-mantra after which he vanished. When mother Sita awoke, she said: "How amazing! Madhavendra Puriraja gave me mantra in a visionary dream!" Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: "You are so fortunate that now all your bondage is destroyed." According to the rules, and on an auspicious moment, Advaita Prabhu then gave His wife Sita that mantra again."

2) How can you take sannyasa in March 1918 while your guru passed away in November 1915? Gaudiya Matha chronicles admit that Bhaktisiddhanta took sannyasa in his room from a photo. Sannyasa cannot be taken from a photo, without physical permission of the person on the photograph, but from a living sannyasi.

3) How can you wear saffron cloth while your would-be sannyasa guru wore white? A parampara that starts with white cloth and then suddenly switches to saffron cloth and 'brahmana-initiation' is also not an uninterrupted siksa-parampara. All colors of garment but white are forbidden for a Gaudiya Vaisnava - rakta-vastra vaisnavera podite na yuyay (Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 13.61) "A Vaisnava should not wear red cloth." nagno dviguna-vastrah syan nagno raktapatas tatha: "Wearing red cloth is like walking naked," and sukla-vasa bhaven nityam raktam caiva vivarjayet (both from Hari-bhakti-vilasa, 4.147,152): "Always wear white and give up red cloth." raktam nilam adhautam ca parakyam malinam patam paridhaya (Agamasastra quoted in Durgama-sangamani by Sri Jiva Gosvami on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.2.120 ): "Wearing red, blue or unwashed garments is a sevaparadha." In Sri Dhyanacandra Gosvami's Paddhati the guru is described as wearing white cloth (svetambaram gaura-rucim sanatanam -"He wears white cloth and his eternal form shines like gold"). And saffron dhotis do not exist at all, only saffron bahirvasas (outer cloth) for Vedic eka-dandi (mayavadi) sannyasis and white dhotis for householders. Grhasthas should not wear a kaupina (loincloth), and this is also not 'brahmana-underwear'. A kaupina is given during the ceremony of sannyasa for a lifelong vow of celibacy. It drags anyone down to hell who takes it off to have sex. Shaving the head is also only for sannyasis and not for others.

To say one is wearing saffron, not red, is a useless escape manoeuvre, because there is also a positive injunction, namely suklavaso bhaven nityah, "one should always wear white and neither red nor saffron." This is also not a question of 'the form ("what does it matter what color your cloth is?") versus the substance. It is not narrow-minded smarta-ism, because obedience is the substance. The Gosvamis have ordered us to wear white and bhakti means that you obey the orders of those who are both ordered and empowered by Mahaprabhu to lay down the law. One Gaudiya Vaisnava acarya who may be an avadhuta may wear burlap, but he did not tell his thousands of disciples to do so. He told them all to wear white cotton. The Srimad Bhagavata verse (3.5.3Cool does not mean that Gaudiya Vaisnavas can wear saffron or red cloth, there was no Gaudiya sampradaya yet in the time of the Bhagavata, and, Srila Sanatana Gosvami comments on this verse: yatibhir maha-prayatnena samsarasagaram sribhagavadbhakta helayaiva sukham taranti, "the ocean of samsara, which is hard to cross by yatis (mayavadi sannyasis), is easily and blissfully crossed by the Lord's devotees." The verse rakta vastra vaisnavera porite na yuyay is not taken out of context here. The story indeed is a personal question between Jagadananda Pandita and Sanatana Gosvami, but the moral of the story, expressed in the rakta vastra-verse, is an objective, absolute statement for all.

4) If Bhaktisiddhanta is Gaurakisora Das Babaji's disciple, then why didn't he give us Gaurakisora's guru-parampara, instead of saying that Gaurakisora Das Babaji was the disciple of Bhaktivinoda? Rather, Bhaktivinoda worshipped Gaura Kisora and approached him for bhekh. (Gaurakisora took bhekh from Bhagavat das Baba, the bhekh-chela of Siddha Jagannatha das Baba). Regarding Bhaktisiddhanta's version of the rest of the guru-parampara:


Sanatana Gosvami was actually the disciple of Vidyavacaspati.

Rupa Gosvami was a disciple of Sanatana Gosvami.

Jiva Gosvami was a disciple of Rupa Gosvami.

Raghunatha das Gosvami was a disciple of Yadunandana Acarya.

Narottama Das Thakura was a disciple of Lokanatha Gosvami, not of Krsna das Kaviraja.

Visvanatha Cakravarti was a disciple of Radha Ramana Cakravarti and never met his would-be guru Narottama, for they lived a century apart.

Baladeva Vidyabhusana was a disciple of Radha Damodara Gosvami, not of Visvanatha Cakravarti.

Jagannatha das Babaji lived 150 years after his would-be guru Baladeva Vidyabhusana.

Bhaktivinoda was a disciple of Vipin Bihari Gosvami, not of Jagannath das Babaji.
5) Why do all Gaudiya Matha-chronicles give different dates and places of Bhaktisiddhanta's supposed initiation, some saying that he received Nrsimha mantra, as if Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji was a worshipper of Nrsimha?

6) Where did Bhaktisiddhanta get his brahmana-thread from? Gaura Kisora das Babaji did not wear it (as the photos show), for he was born a vaisya. The proof that brahmana-initiation does not exist in reality is that there is a separate 10-syllable Gopala Mantra for brahmanas and an 18-syllable mantra for non-brahmanas. This means that 2nd initiation is not the same as brahmana-initiation. And if you do become a brahmana through such initiation, then why not receive the 10-syllable mantra instead of the 18-syllable mantra they now receive?

7) Then there is the argument: "Ah, then you have an uninterrupted succession with so many ladies, but what was their realisation?" What were the realisations of Jahnava Thakurani, Hemalata Thakurani, Krsnapriya Thakurani, Siddhesvari Mata, etc.? The Gita proclaims that ladies can attain the Supreme Abode, but those who do not follow the scriptures (be they men) can forget about it-


mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papayonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim
(Bhagavad Gita, 9.32)
"O Partha, anyone who surrenders to Me, even low born women, merchants and laborers, will reach the Supreme Abode."

Better a submissive lady than a wayward, independently operating pandit, svami, etc. And even if these ladies did not have so many spiritual realisations that is still no excuse for just fabricating a guru-parampara.

Gaudiya Matha preachers attract followers from family gurus ('caste Gosvamis') by pointing to Sri Jiva Gosvami's statement in Bhakti-sandarbha (210): tad etat paramartha-gurvasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadi parityagenapi kartavyam, "One should give up a mundane guru and take a spiritual guru", but this 'mundane guru' refers to a village elder or parent, not to a family guru, for in Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.141) the Brahma-vaivarta Purana is quoted:


upadestaram amnayagatampariharanti ye
tan mrtan api kravyadahkrtaghnannopabhuñjate

"Even the vultures will not eat the dead corpse of the ungrateful one who abandons the amnayagatam guru."

In his commentary to this verse Srila Sanatana Gosvami writes: amnayagatam kula-kramayatam: This amnayagata guru means a guru who has come in a family succession."

Cool What is the tilaka svarupa of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and his followers? For instance, the Nityananda parivara-initiates have a Nim-leaf on the nose, the Advaita Parivara-initiates have a Banyan-leaf on the nose, the Syamananda Parivara-initiates have an anklebell-form on the nose and so every bonafide Gaudiya Vaisnava parampara has its own tilaka svarupa, which is revealed by the guru and personally placed on the 12 parts of the disciple's body by him at the time of initiation. In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.85) it is quoted: sampradayika mudradi bhusitam tam krtañjalim, "At the time of initiation the disciple receives the sectarian signs from the guru". In the commentary to this verse Srila Sanatana Gosvami writes: sampradayikam guru-paramparasiddham, "This sampradayika refers to the guru-parampara," and mudra tilaka maladi, "And mudra refers to tilaka and strings of beads." If Bhaktisiddhanta was a disciple of Gaurakisora then why do they put on this gopicandana tilaka without any fixed and distinct svarupa? Gaurakisora was initiated in the Advaita parivara. Why did Bhaktisiddhanta not wear his guru's tilaka if he was really his disciple?

9) The guru-parampara is placed in the wrong order on Iskcon-altars. The guru is seated on the disciple's right side at the time of initiation and remains there eternally. On Iskcon-altars the guru is on the left of the disciple. The latest guru should be to the right and the earliest guru leftmost.

10) Who is a brahmana? a) In ISKCON/Gaudiya Matha we see everyone ultimately receiving brahmana-initiation. But which varnasrama-society has only brahmanas? Even from their viewpoint "we judge people on their qualities and not on their birth," most of Bhaktivedanta's followers are not qualified brahmanas. ISKCON/Gaudiya Math "brahmana"-women leave their husbands, have children from different men (this is lower than a sweeper's wife in India), and, what to speak of knowing Sanskrit, the men don't even know Hindi or Bengali, or even what the weather is like in India. No one knows even basic sadacara, the practices of cleanliness and chastity. 90% of Iskcon members are businessmen ("qualified vaisyas" perhaps?) Quality and birth are anyway non-different: karanam gunasango 'sya sadasadyonijanmasu (Gita, 13.22). "The cause of birth in either a good or a bad species is one's attachment to a certain psychological quality (culture, habit)." The fact that most of Bhaktisiddhanta's Western followers are not even brahmana by quality, but there is still 'brahmana initiation' proves that their brahmana-campaign is motivated by envy. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has taught His followers trnad api sunicena "One must consider oneself lower than a blade of grass," not an ignorant mleccha considering himself equal to a brahmana.

b) Envy is the cause of the mentality: "Nowadays brahmanas are full of faults, so now we will launch our own varnasrama-system." A human being can and should not do that, for it is created by God Himself, and He is the highest authority (caturvarnyam maya srstam "The four castes are created by Me (God, Krsna),") and not by the human being Bimal Prasad Datta. 'Religious principles are created by God Himself" (dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam, Srimad Bhagavata, 6.3.19) Envy of brahmanas will cost you dearly, for Sri Krsna Himself says in the Bhagavata (10.64.41-42):


vipram krtagasam api naiva druhyata mamakah
ghnantam bahusapantam va namaskuruta nityasah
yathaham praname vipran anukalam samahitah
tatha namata yuyam ca ye 'nyatha me sa danda-bhak

"O My relatives! Do not harm a brahmana, even if he mistreats you! Even if he is a sinner, you should still bow down to him. Even I bow down to the brahmanas. Whoever acts otherwise is punishable by Me!" The best example is Indra, who had to suffer severely for killing the brahmana Vrtrasura, even though he was a demon.

The Lord further tells Srideva in Srimad Bhagavata (10.86.53):


brahmano janmana sreyan sarvesam praninam iha
tapasa vidyaya tustya kim u mat kalaya yutah

"The brahmana is superior to all living beings by birth, let alone when he is austere, learned, content and devoted to Me."


dusprajña aviditvaivam avajananty asuyavah
gurum mam vipram atmanam arccadavijyadrstayah (S.Bhag. 10.86.55)

"Men of crooked understanding, who do not know this, disrespect a brahmana and are envious of him, who is identical with Me and their very self."

c) The Bhagavata (7.11.13) declares that a brahmana must first be born in a family that has always, throughout the generations, followed all the samskaras for brahmanas.

d) The Vedas teach that a sannyasi renounces his brahmana-thread when he takes sannyasa (sutra-sikha-tyaga, C.C.), but in Gaudiya Matha/Iskcon sannyasis continue to wear the thread, even though they are not born as brahmanas in the first place!

e) The brahma-sutra (thread) is only for practising the brahma gayatri, not for the Vaisnava diksa-mantras like the gopala mantra and the kama Gayatri. Only the last two are mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilasa as Gaudiya Vaisnava diksa mantras.

f) A brahmana is called dvija, or twice born. How can you have the second birth (upanayana-samskara) without having had the first one (saukra or seminal birth)? The brahma gayatri investment is done by the father of a brahmin boy when he is 11 years old. The boy should not see the sun for many days (since the brahma gayatri is a solar mantra) and is locked up in a room with the windows shut and given only havisyanna (porridge without salt, spices or sugar) to eat. Initiation into krsna-mantra is a separate initiation which is only given to active Vaisnava brahmanas. This is called the brahmana's third birth (daiksa janma). For instance, Mahaprabhu already wore His thread when He received krsna mantra from Isvara Puri and Advaita Prabhu had been doing brahma gayatri for decades when He received krsna mantra from Madhavendra Puri.

g) Sanatana Gosvami says in Brhad-bhagavatamrta (2.2.57):


esam yajñaikanisthanam aikyenavasyake nije
jape ca sadguruddiste mandyam syad drstasatphale

The Maharsis offered Gopa Kumara the status of a brahmana, but he thought to himself: "If I accept the position of a brahmana, I will surely slacken in my practise of the mantra that I received from the bonafide guru, and that is certainly not good. brahmanas are only engaged in yajñas and are not engaged in other matters."

h) Introducing varnasrama dharma, which is an institution of karma-yoga, is a namaparadha - dharma-vrata-tyaga-hutadi-sarva-subhakriyasamyam: "To consider Hari Nama equal to any auspicious activity like (varnasrama) dharma, vows (sannyasa), tyaga and sacrifices."

11) Who is a sannyasi? A Vaisnava tyagi is not called sannyasi. In India a mayavadi is called sannyasi. In his Durgama-sangamani commentary on the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.113) Sri Jiva Gosvami sees a difference between a sannyasi and a Vaisnava-nivrtta (tyagi): sisyan naivanubadhniyad ityadiko yadyapi sannyasa-dharmas tathapi nivrttanam api bhaktanam upayujyata iti bhavah - "Just as it is wrong for a sannyasi to take too many disciples, so it counts also for renounced bhaktas."

12) There has never been a prohibition by the Gosvamis or the scriptures against calling householder-acaryas 'Gosvami'. On the contrary, Sri Narottama Thakura Mahasaya sang: doya koro sitapati, advaita gosai addressing the householder guru Advaita Prabhu with gosai. Advaita is also repeatedly called gosvami in Kavi Karnapura's Caitanya-candrodaya Natakam. To see the Gosvamis as different from the Lords - Nityananda and Advaita - who they directly descend from in family line is an offence to Nityananda and Advaita, for the Vedas teach us atma vai jayate putrah - "As father, so son", or: "The child is the image of the father." Saying that Sukracarya, the guru of the demons, refers to the 'caste Gosvamis', (sukra meaning sperm), is not only very offensive but also hypocritical, because Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura is only famous due to glorification by his own son Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

Regarding family-succession, there is no reason that one should not be initiated by one's parents: Hemalata Thakurani, guru of Yadunandana Thakura, took initiation from her father Srinivasacarya, Krsna Misra took initiation from his mother Sita-devi and Virabhadra Prabhu took intiation from his co-mother Jahnavi Devi. Virabhadra was a son of Nityananda Prabhu, but according to the Advaita Prakasa he went to Advaita Prabhu for diksa. Advaita Prabhu sent him back to his own family to take diksa there, which confirms that it was the wish of Nityananda and Advaita Prabhu that these family-guru paramparas would be created.

13) It is also not true that a person cannot give initiation when his guru is still alive. This practise is widespread throughout Gaudiya Vaisnava history. For instance, Rasikananda gave initiation while his guru Syamananda Thakura was still alive.

14) Deviating from the sastras a) Is often apologised for with the argument: "Yes, Prabhupada/Bhaktisiddhanta was a pure devotee, therefore he was empowered to introduce new injunctions." If that is so, then everyone can say the same of their gurus, including the followers of Jayatirtha, who introduced the use of hashish and LSD as a 'sadhana.' A genuine pure devotee will surrender to the sastras.


tasmacchastram pramanam te karyakaryavyavasthitau
jñatva sastravidhanoktam karma kartum iharhasi (B.Gita, 16.24)

"Therefore one should follow the scriptural authority in what is to be done and what is not to be done. Once knowing the scriptural injunctions, one should act accordingly."

b) Some say: "Well, all that scriptural evidence is very nice, but Prabhupada is beyond that. He is empowered by Krsna Himself, you can see that in these 208 temples in 184 countries, 25.000 followers, etc. etc." The answer lies in the well-known saying: "Religion without (scriptural) philosophy is sentimentalism and/or fanaticism." Quantity does not prove quality. Rajneesh has millions of followers, many more than Prabhupada, but does that make him an 'empowered' pure devotee?


yah sastravidhim utsrjya vartate kama karatah
na sa siddhim avapnoti na sukham na param gatim (Bhagavad Gita, 16.23)

"He who rejects scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims, will not attain perfection, nor will he become happy or attain the Supreme Abode."


srutismrti mamaivajñe yas tu ullanghya vartate
ajña-cchedi mama dvesi madbhakto 'pi na vaisnavah

Sri Krsna says (quoted in Bhakti-sandarbha, para. 312): "The Srutis and Smrtis are My orders. Those who violate, disregard and disobey these orders are haters of Me. Though they may be my devotees, they are still not Vaisnavas."

Disregarding the scriptures is the 4th offence to the holy name (sruti-sastra-nindanam). Moreover, Srila Narottama Thakura Mahasaya says (in the Prema-bhakti-candrika): sadhu-sastra guru vakya, hrdaye koriya aikya - "The words of the guru must be compatible with the words of sadhu and sastra, just as the words of sadhu must be compatible with guru and sastra and the words of sastra must be confirmed by sadhu and guru." Not that the guru can say whatever he wants merely on the strength of his large number of temples and his large material success.

Throughout this essay it is shown that the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta distribute namaparadha. The 1st (satam ninda, blanket-blasphemy of the non-Iskcon-Vaisnavas), the 3rd (guroravajña not accepting guru parampara), the 4th (sruti-sastra-nindanam, knowingly deviating from the scriptures), the 8th (considering mundane piety other than the holy name, like their own varnasrama dharma, to be alternative means of salvation), the 9th (asraddadhane vimukhe 'pyasrnvati yas copadesah, preaching to the faithless, the averse and the unwilling, and the 11th (?) (aham mamadiparamo namni so 'pyaparadhakrt), chanting the holy name with false ego (envy and ambition). Is their 'success' then really so great? All their followers are encouraged to commit and spread namaparadha.

15) Vaisnava ninda - Even if there were any kind of parampara in Gaudiya Math/Iskcon, their initiation must still be rejected on the basis of their systematic and collective slander of the Vaisnavas, with most of whom they are not even acquainted. Sri Jiva Gosvami quotes Narada Pañcaratra in Paragraph 238 of Bhakti-sandarbha:


yo vyakti nyayarahitam anyayena srnoti yah
tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam


iti naradapañcaratre ataeva durata evaradhyas tadrso guruh vaisnava-vidvesi cet parityajya eva - guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpathapratipannasya parityago vidhiyate iti smaranat tasya vaisnavabhavarahityenavaisnavataya 'avaisnavopadistenah' ityadi vacanavisayac ca

"'A person who speaks contrary to the morale enunciated by the Vaisnava-sastras, and the person who hears such immoral teachings will both live in a foul hell for eternity'. If an instruction of Sri Gurudeva is contrary to the sastras, then association with such a guru should be given up and he should be worshipped from a distance. If the guru is an enemy of the Vaisnavas, it is most auspicious to give him up altogether. The word dvesa (hatred) also stands for ninda (slander) (nindapi dvesasamah, Bhakti-sandarbhah). Therefore an offender to the Vaisnavas is not qualified to be a guru, and he must be abandoned. A guru who is attached to sense gratification, who does not know what is to be done and what is not to be done, or who acts contrary to the bhakti sastras must be abandoned. He has no Vaisnava-feelings, therefore he is an non-Vaisnava (non-devotee). The scriptural saying 'A mantra received from a non-Vaisnava will drag one to hell' also shows that an non-Vaisnava guru is to be abandoned."

There is no justification whatsoever for slandering Vaisnavas, for Sri Krsna Himself proclaims in Bhagavad-gita (9.30):


api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananyabhak
sadhur eva sa mantavyah samyag-vyavasito hi sah

"Even if he commits the most abominable activities, whoever exclusively worships Me (without worshipping demigods or endeavouring for liberation - Visvanatha) is to be considered a saint, since he is on the right way."

Satam nindam paramam aparadham vitanute: "Blaspheming the saints is the first and foremost offence to the holy name."

In the Vrndavana-mahimamrta (17.83) Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvati has written:


svananda sac cid ghana rupata matir yavan na vrndavana vasi jantusu
tavat pravisto'pi na tatra vindate tato'paradhat padavim paratparam

"As long as one is so offensive as not to see all the creatures who live in Vrndavana as transcendentally blissful and full of ecstatic love and transcendental flavours, the supreme position of Radha's maidservant will remain unattainable, even if one has already entered Vrndavana."

Unless one gives up the company of a slanderer one is sure to fall down. The Srimad Bhagavata (10.74.40) confirms this:


nindam bhagavatah srnvan tat-parasya janasya va
tato napaiti yah so 'pi yatyadhah sukrtaccyutah

"Anyone who hears the Lord or His devotee (tat-parasya janasya va) blasphemed, and does not leave, will fall down."

b) Some call Radhakunda Narakakunda, and say 'there is not a single rupanuga Vaisnava there.' To this it can be replied - yattirthabuddhih salile na karhicit janesvabhijñesu sa eva go-kharah (Srimad Bhagavata, 10.84.13) "Anyone who comes to a holy place (like Radhakunda) only to bathe without meeting the learned persons there or recognising them, is like a cow or an ass." If one wants to keep one's men for the preaching-mission - for this is the only reason why other Vaisnavas are systematically slandered - then one may say 'you are not qualified to associate with such deeply realised souls.' Then one has caught two flies in one blow - one has glorified the Radhakunda Vaisnavas and at the same time have kept one's money-machine erect.

c) Babajis are not sahajiyas, for sahajiyas are Saktas or Mayavadis who have tantric sex with other men's wives, identifying themselves with Radha and Krsna. Babajis don't do this. They do not imitate the Gosvamis, but follow them, by wearing the dress Goswamis not only wore themselves, but also advised all other Vaisnavas to wear in works like the Hari-bhakti-vilasa and Caitanya-caritamrta (cited previously). Even if they are playing Vaisnava by falsely wearing the dress it is said:


sadhu sangera alaukika apara sakti hoy
chale sad-vesa-dhari jiva jivanmukti pay (Advaita-prakasa 9.61)

"The power of saintly association is so endless that even when one pretentiously dresses as a saint, one will attain liberation."

[pilgrim]

mysteria, exactly what is the point you are trying to make?

Please tell me who is your spiritual master?

[mysteria]

I was a direct disciple of Swami Prabupada in the early 70's and left in the late 70's after myself and a good number of his sanskrit translators (close friends of mine) discovered that they did not have proper diksha into an authentic Parivar (Guru-Parampara) in Sri Chaitanyas Sampradaya.

The same thing happened in 1934 after Bhaktisiddhanta passed away with Sunderananda Vidyavinode who happened to be HIS foremost sanskrit scholar.

Sorry you have not heard any of this yet, it is really water under the bridge for decades and decades.

[pilgrim]

I was a direct disciple of Swami Prabupada in the early 70's and left in the late 70's after myself and a good number of his sanskrit translators (close friends of mine) discovered that they did not have proper diksha into an authentic Parivar (Guru-Parampara) in Sri Chaitanyas Sampradaya.

The same thing happened in 1934 after Bhaktisiddhanta passed away with Sunderananda Vidyavinode who happened to be HIS foremost sanskrit scholar.

Sorry you have not heard any of this yet, it is really water under the bridge for decades and decades.
You still have not said what the point you are trying to make is!
Neither have you said who is your Diksha-Guru spiritual master!

Do you now reject Srila Prabhupada and/or Krishna Conscious philosophy?
Do you think that Bhaktivinoda Thakur was the last genuine link in the disciplic succession?
What exactly are you trying to tell me?!

[mysteria]

What I'm trying to say to you is evident, read my posts!

I already told you I was a disciple of Bhaktivedanta who moved on like so many others..

[mysteria]

Do you think that Bhaktivinoda Thakur was the last genuine link in the disciplic succession?

They are many authentic Gaudiya parivars alive and well in Braja and Navadvipa, you were just brainwashed into thinking there was only one or that they were the most important, due to their Jehovas Witness type of fanatical preaching that you have absorbed so very well.

:D

[pilgrim]

What I'm trying to say to you is evident, read my posts!
Please excuse my ignorance. Could you please spell out your point for me in a few short sentences?


I already told you I was a disciple of Bhaktivedanta who moved on like so many others..
Yes, I understand that you WERE a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
I was asking who you NOW accepted as Guru, if anyone?