Does anyone here know how Zyklon B works? [Archive]

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phantom

23-12-2007, 10:10 PM

on the road

23-12-2007, 10:13 PM

they might of worked at room temp.

maybe they reacted when exposed to atmosphere like phosphorus.

phantom

23-12-2007, 10:22 PM

Nope! I don't think so on the road but thanks for your reply.

cheeb

23-12-2007, 11:40 PM

Nope! I don't think so on the road but thanks for your reply.

You are a hate mongerer,
The Nazi T4 Aktion,
Devoloped by franz Stangle,
Was stopped by the Bishop of Munster,

Genocide of the innocents,

What do you get from this!!!

:eek:

Sonderkommando is well documented???

As well as the use of Prussian Blue,/
Zyclon B in the T4 Aktions!!!

Nonce!!!

phantom

24-12-2007, 01:24 AM

Hi cheeb and thanks for your input.

Are you afraid that I am about to reveal how it was impossible to have gassed people within ten minutes in that cold, damp Auschwitz gas chamber using Zyklon B.

All I am doing to asking a question to see what people know about Zyklon B and as of yet no one has answered it.

Now, please refrain from calling me name and address my question or just simply move along with your name calling.

Thank You!

cheeb

24-12-2007, 01:28 AM

What do you know about the T4 Acktion,
Fascist Revisionist!!!

Move along back to stormfront,
Apologiser!!!

:eek:

de_shit

24-12-2007, 01:32 AM

cheeb

24-12-2007, 01:38 AM

The only thing that makes sense is that people can be gassed, and killed. I think mustard gas worked quickly to kill people. So maybe the chemical that phantom is talking about does kill people in under 10 minutes.

[B]Course that fascist fucker knew about,
Zycclon b,
Why else did he mention it[

Beware of fascists,
they are a disease!!!/B]

;)

phantom

24-12-2007, 01:38 AM

Hello again cheeb

We can move on to the Aktion T4 ("euthanasia program") where German citizens, babies, children, adults, and elderly, who had physical and mental disabilities were put to death on another thread.

Let's stick to the matter at hand.

Zyklon B.

phantom

24-12-2007, 01:41 AM

Hi de_shit

Victims of mustard gas died an extremely slow painful death; there was nothing quick about it. And for Zyklon B to kill fast, the room temperature has to be correct. It does not work well in cold environments.

cheeb

24-12-2007, 01:42 AM

fuckoff hater¬¬¬

phantom

24-12-2007, 01:43 AM

Nice reply cheeb.

I didn't really expect anything else. :rolleyes:

cheeb

24-12-2007, 01:49 AM

I would verymuch douybt if anyone
on the david icke forum,
woulds come round to your point of view,
Because its hatred,
see ya!!!

phantom

24-12-2007, 01:52 AM

Oh you will be surprised cheeb

I have had several positive PM's so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

cheeb

24-12-2007, 01:53 AM

Ill informed Plonker!!!"

phantom

24-12-2007, 01:55 AM

I didn't ask you how well informed you were but thanks for the heads up.

cheeb

24-12-2007, 01:59 AM

Ok ,
gone right off topic,
What were the Sonderkommandos,
What is T4 Acxktion!!!

Explain Hadamar to me!!!1

:eek:

thirdwave

24-12-2007, 02:03 AM

lets keep this one clean.... always a touchy subject but views and views...

cheeb

24-12-2007, 02:07 AM

Fair enough,
Thirdwve,
And sorry Phantom,
Not attacking you,
Just your POV,
Which is you,
Nevermind!!!

phantom

24-12-2007, 02:08 AM

I'm off to bed now and if you are lucky, I will reply to your questions tomorrow about Sonderkommandos and the Hadamar psychiatric hospital in Hadamar and the T-4 Euthanasia Program.

In the mean time, maybe you can answer the original question I posed to keep this thread on topic. ;)

phantom

24-12-2007, 02:12 AM

As I always do thirdwave when discussing the holocaust.

:) cheeb

If your apology was genuine then I accept it.

Good Night!

cheeb

24-12-2007, 02:21 AM

As I always do thirdwave when discussing the holocaust.

:) cheeb

If your apology was genuine then I accept it.

Good Night!

yeah it was quinine,
discuss hada,mar tom,morow111

phantom

24-12-2007, 02:31 AM

quinine?

Isn't that a drug that was used in treating malaria?

Anyway, good night and while I am gone, have a go at answering my Zyklon B question. It's only fair.

phantom

24-12-2007, 03:01 PM

Hi cheeb

Where do I start with the T4 euthanasia program?

There were six so called euthanasia clinics, Grafeneck, Brandenburg, Hartheim, Sonnenstein, Bernburg and Hadamar where doctors would perform mercy killings on German citizens, babies, children, adults, and elderly, who had physical and mental disabilities. Because of these units, rumours were started in 1940 about the gassing claims (http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconshr8_13.html#shrlk10).

Well, from what I understand, it all started when a German father of a deformed and retarded child asked Hitler if he could have his child put to sleep back in the mid 30’s. Hitler then asked his personal physician to investigate the situation and the child was eventually put to sleep on the wishes of the parent. (http://www3.sympatico.ca/mighty1/essays/nurses2.htm)

At first, Hitler did not issue a law legalizing euthanasia, and physicians would hesitate or refuse to take part in such a program unless they had written protection from later prosecution. Hitler was then persuaded to sign a document instructing his assistants Philipp Bouhler and Dr. Karl Brandt to initiate the program (http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id16.html). Hitler Signed that Order Authorizing Involuntary Euthanasia in Germany, October 1939

In 1939, a Ministry of Justice commission proposed the following:

Clause 1: Whoever is suffering from an incurable or terminal illness which is a major burden to him self or others, can request mercy killing by a doctor, provided it is his express wish and has the approval of a specially empowered doctor.

Clause 2: The life of a person who because of incurable mental illness requires permanent institutionalization and is not able to sustain an independent existence, may be prematurely terminated by medical measures in a painless and covert manner.

This program was then terminated in 1941 because of public pressure and pressure applied by the church.

Now we can argue that it was continued but that will get us nowhere because there is no evidence for the claim. If you want to use Yitzhak Arad as a source then you might as well read this, Dissecting Yitzhak Arad (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=3675) first. Then have a read through Samuel Crowell's book The Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes (http://www.vho.org/GB/c/SC/sh10.html). Or we can argue the testimony of Viktor Brack who claims that carbon monoxide in the diesel gas chambers (http://www.codoh.com/found/fndieselgc.html) was used to kill Jewish people in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor in Eastern Poland.

The origins of planned euthanasia were in place earlier than the Nazi era (http://wicatholicmusings.blogspot.com/2005/06/nurses-participation-in-euthanasia.html). "The idea of ending 'lives not worth living' did not begin with the Nazis, but had been discussed in the legal and medical literatures since the end of the First World War", with supportive articles appearing in both European and American literature (Proctor, 1992, p. 24). In 1920, Dr. Alfred Hoche, a physician, and Karl Binding published a pamphlet entitled "The Sanctioning of the Destruction of Life Unworthy of Living". The emphasis of the book was on the reduction of suffering of the acutely ill and their families (Nadav, 1994, p. 45).

Today, Euthanasia is now law in several countries and is being considered by others ( http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Euthanasia+is+now+law+in+several+countrie s+&hl=en&start=10&sa=N). if you want my honest opinion, I am all for it if that is the wishes of the parents. Just as I am all for assisted suicide if the person cannot perform the task by themselves.

Now I don't want to take this thread any more off topic so if you wish to start a new thread about the Nazi euthanasia program, or the Sonderkommandos that's fine by me.

Now I would appreciate it of you could answer my questions about Zyklon B cheeb or are you going to treat me in the same way others do by getting me to answer your question whilst ignoring mine?

If you do not know how Zyklon B works, all you have to do is admit to the fact.

harx bhullar

24-12-2007, 03:16 PM

The pellets turn into a gassious form around 27 degrees celsius..

paganus

24-12-2007, 03:38 PM

answer me this someone,its well documented fact the Hitler refused to use gas as weapon because he himself was gassed in ww1.so,if he refused to sanction its use even on the brink of defeat why would he allow it as a device for execution? he didnt use gas militaraly on ANYONE,not even the soviets,so it doesnt make sense!

phantom

24-12-2007, 03:47 PM

Hi harx bhullar, thanks for the reply.

So the hydrogen cyanide gas is released from the Zyklon B pellets at a temperature of 27 degrees Celsius which is roughly 80 degrees Fahrenheit.

That would mean that the Auschwitz gas chamber would have had to have been heated to such a temperature during the time the gassings took place.

Is that correct?

Guessing that is so, how were the gas chambers heated to such a temperature during the cold weather months of Autumn, winter and spring when mass gassing were claimed to have been taking place in Auschwitz considering the gas chamber had no internal heating devices as admitted by holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac?

Is it also a fact that if the temperature was below 80 degrees Fahrenheit, the hydrogen cyanide gas released from Zyklon B would not occure and therefore remain in pellet form or even a liquid state and not be dangerous enough to kill someone within ten minutes as the claim has been made by witnesses?

phantom

24-12-2007, 03:50 PM

That is a fair question paganus and one I would like to see someone answer.

seanx

24-12-2007, 04:39 PM

I see this sick race hater is back spamming his usual race hate
stuff.

You'd think on Christmas Eve he'd take a break.

And now he's brought his own mini-hater with him, paganus or whatever
he calls himself.

What rock do these guys crawl from?

phantom

24-12-2007, 04:58 PM

seanx

24-12-2007, 05:11 PM

Come on seanx, if you don't have anything of substance to add to the thread why bother reply?

Are you afraid that I may be onto something with regards to my questioning on how hydrogen cyanide gas is released from the Zyklon B pellets.

Are you afraid that once I have shown the reader that Zyklon B could not have functioned as climed by witnesses, it will dent someone elses belief in the official story.

After all, what is the holocaust without Zyklon B and the gas chambers?
__________________

Do you honestly think any genuine member of this forum is going
to debate such shit with you on Christmas Eve.

How innocent women and children were murdered because of their
religion or nationality ?
You and the rest of your race obsessives can have a nice cosy chat.

Paganus and others will no doubt keep you company.

Then, when you're finished, crawl back under the rock you and
your mates came from and turn the lights off when you go.

thirdwave

24-12-2007, 06:16 PM

To be Honest the idea of the whole thing being a a lie, is a little much for me... I have been to this place and you can smell the fear there...

However, I would not be shocked to learn that the numbers were fixed and not quite as many people were killed as they have told.... a number of questions have come up...

But that being said I do not think it was the "Jews" who lied about it or created the situation... nothing to do with Jews... its to do with evil people who do not share any religion the masses have.. all manipulation created to divide.

I also think that enough people did die there for it to be remembered as something very very bad...even if it was only a quarter of the numbers told... the whole manner of their death and ethics behind it was something very bad indeed.

paganus

24-12-2007, 09:17 PM

cheeb

24-12-2007, 10:43 PM

Karma for Caanan,
What are you going on about,
Icke genuinly beleives "lizards"'
to be ruling the world,
Which is a moot point in my opinion!!!

At least this Phantom/December person does his research,
Prussian blue/iron cynadide was found at Auswitz,
Maybe more concentrated in the so called delousing chambers,
Than the destroyed gas chambers,
See Nuremburg document NI-9912,
And Phantom don't use your lying Lecktor to debunk this OK!!!

Because it takes longer to kill lice,
Than it does to kill men,
So zyklon B was used at Auswitz,
Prooved without a doubt!!!

Going off topic a bit now Phantom,
But quoting Col Leon Jaworski,
At the Hadamar trial 1945:

"Oh, what a viscious falsehood,
What a terrible thing,
What an evil and wicked thing to do to a person,
Who is already suffering and carrying burdens,
To build up the false hope that sunshine was about to enter their hearts'
They told them that they would be given medication that would help them,
Oh yes,
They were given medications'
Medications of poison that gripped their hearts,
and closed their eyelids still,
That is the sort of medication they were given"

The Aktion Rienhard personell'
Also served at Hadamar!!!

Have a nice christmas Phantom,
This is my last word on this for a while,
It seems inapropriate to discuss hatred on Christmas eve!!!

:rolleyes:

phantom

27-12-2007, 02:58 PM

Hi cheeb

I answered your question on the T4 euthanasia program but you ducked my question about Zyklon B. Could it be that I am going to show you and others that Zyklon B could not have been used in the way claimed by so called survivors?

I would appreciate an answer or are you going to treat me in the same way others do by getting me to answer their questions whilst ignoring mine?

I repeat: So the hydrogen cyanide gas is released from the Zyklon B pellets at a temperature of 27 degrees Celsius which is roughly 80 degrees Fahrenheit.

That would mean that the Auschwitz gas chamber would have had to have been heated to such a temperature during the time the gassings took place.

Is that correct?

Guessing that is so, how were the gas chambers heated to such a temperature during the cold weather months of Autumn, winter and spring when mass gassing were claimed to have been taking place in Auschwitz considering the gas chamber had no internal heating devices as admitted by holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac?

Is it also a fact that if the temperature was below 80 degrees Fahrenheit, the hydrogen cyanide gas released from Zyklon B would not occure and therefore remain in pellet form or even a liquid state and not be dangerous enough to kill someone within ten minutes as the claim has been made by witnesses?

nessa felagund

27-12-2007, 04:04 PM

good day phantom, i have been following this thread with interest. I have always believed the official story of the Holocaust, but I am willing to accept that it may not be exactly as history tells us (as with just about everything else we've been told). I try to keep an open mind when reading alternative views to history.

Anyway, i did a search for zyklon b gas. I had to search many different sites to find the information i am posting below. Please understand, i am no chemist. I just found this article, particularly the two paragraphs below. I have also posted a link to the whole article, which is rather lengthy and full of technical information of which i am extremely ignorant.

I hope this is the type of information you are searching for--how the gas works.

"Deniers less sophisticated than Rudolf have argued that hydrogen cyanide cannot kill at temperatures below its boiling point. [24] They have not understood that liquids have vapor pressure. There is an equilibrium between gas and liquid at a given temperature. This fact can be illustrated by considering humidity. It is not necessary for the temperature to be 100°C in order for there to be a significant amount of water vapor in the air. This amount of vapor can be conveniently expressed as a partial pressure, and at equilibrium this pressure is called the vapor pressure of the substance.

Hydrogen cyanide is a liquid at room temperature with an exceedingly high vapor pressure. In fact, its vapor pressure is more than high enough to kill. Some deniers have suggested at temperatures cold enough to freeze HCN that there would be no vapor or very little; they are wrong. The vapor pressure of HCN was measured for the first time in 1926 by Perry and Porter. [25] Their results are in close agreement with the accepted values as reported by DuPont. [26] They measured the vapor pressure of the liquid and the solid as a function of temperature. A plot of their results converted to ppmv is displayed below."

The entire article can be found here. (http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/)

phantom

27-12-2007, 04:40 PM

nessa felagund

27-12-2007, 04:54 PM

Hi nessa felagund and thanks for your reply.

I will read through the article later and get back to you but in the mean time, here is an interesting video.

Zyklon-B test on humans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ36oGB3ww8

Fascinating experiment! They are either the bravest or the craziest men i've seen--lol.

I can't begin to debate the chemical components of this gas. Seems even the chemists don't agree on how it works.

I would like to have seen what went on in the bunker while the men were inside with the gas. I wonder why they didn't set up a camera to show this?

Thanks for sharing, phantom. :)

seanx

27-12-2007, 07:07 PM

Cheeb wrote:
Karma for Caanan,
What are you going on about,
Icke genuinly beleives "lizards"'
to be ruling the world,
Which is a moot point in my opinion!!!

At least this Phantom/December person does his research,
Prussian blue/iron cynadide was found at Auswitz,
Maybe more concentrated in the so called delousing chambers,
Than the destroyed gas chambers,
See Nuremburg document NI-9912,
And Phantom don't use your lying Lecktor to debunk this OK!!!

Because it takes longer to kill lice,
Than it does to kill men,
So zyklon B was used at Auswitz,
Prooved without a doubt!!!

Going off topic a bit now Phantom,
But quoting Col Leon Jaworski,
At the Hadamar trial 1945:

"Oh, what a viscious falsehood,
What a terrible thing,
What an evil and wicked thing to do to a person,
Who is already suffering and carrying burdens,
To build up the false hope that sunshine was about to enter their hearts'
They told them that they would be given medication that would help them,
Oh yes,
They were given medications'
Medications of poison that gripped their hearts,
and closed their eyelids still,
That is the sort of medication they were given"

The Aktion Rienhard personell'
Also served at Hadamar!!!

Have a nice christmas Phantom,
This is my last word on this for a while,
It seems inapropriate to discuss hatred on Christmas eve!!!

What an excellent post.

It's funny.

The Russians murdered millions of their
own citizens under Stalin.

The Chinese murdered millions of their citizens under Mao.

The British let millions of irish starve to a horrible death
as they shipped the food out of Ireland to feed their armies.

The Americans murdered and butchered over 200,000 innocent people
alone in the middle east...

But Mr Phantom wants to believe that the Nazis wouldn't be capable of
doing such a terrible thing to their enemies - the Jews.

That it is all lies. That most of them died of malnutrition or from cutting themselves shaving!

These were the same nazis who were dropping bombs down every
single night on the innocent people of London.

Funny- they had no moral problem potentially killing millions of
Londoners - but not the jews that they hated.

Did some zionist politicans take advantage of the Holercaust to
further the creation of israel.

Of course they did.

But move on. The past is the past.

Accept that all nations and people have the capacity to be evil.

It is not the privilage of any one people or race.

phantom

28-12-2007, 05:01 PM

Cheeb

Here is an interesting thread for you and others to read if you can be bothered. T4 euthanasia gassing? (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=1129)

phantom

28-12-2007, 05:42 PM

Hi nessa felagund

I am still looking for more on the 1926 report about Zyklon B by Perry and Porter but am not having much joy in finding their report. Do you have any other links that I may read from?

As for the Zyklon-B test on humans video:

Fascinating experiment! They are either the bravest or the craziest men i've seen--lol.

I would say that they were both, crazy and brave at the same time to put themselves through such an experiment. Not something I would do to prove a point. Fair play to them! ;)

I can't begin to debate the chemical components of this gas. Seems even the chemists don't agree on how it works.

While you gave me the 1926 Perry and Porter report about Zyklon B, which the link points to a DuPont test as well, I refer to the Germar Rudolf (http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/), Fred Leuchter (http://www.ihr.org/books/leuchter/leuchter.toc.html), Walter Lueftl (http://www.patriot.dk/lueftl.html) and the official Polish report on the Auschwitz 'gas chambers' (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p207_Staff.html) reports. All of which can be found here (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15116&highlight=death+rise+fall+fred) among other interesting information regarding Auschwitz.

One thing that points me into believing the above reports is the fact that the so called genocidal gas chamber is not stained with the Prussian Blue that can be found in the delousing chambers.

It could be argued that less Zyklon B was used to kill millions of humans than was used to kill lice but I am sure it would still leave large traces hydrogen cyanide in the fabric of the structure and I am sure it would have left some kind of stain, even if a small one but nothing of significance was found by either investigations.

I would like to have seen what went on in the bunker while the men were inside with the gas. I wonder why they didn't set up a camera to show this?

Good point nessa felagund. I am going to write to Fred Töben and ask why a camera was not set up in the hut. If I get a reply I will add it here.

Thanks for sharing, phantom.

Thank you also for the 1926 Perry and Porter report. I would like to find more information on that to see if it can be rebutted.

nessa felagund

28-12-2007, 05:51 PM

Thanks for reading the article and responding, phantom. I will look and see what I can find, but it took a while to locate the article I posted. I will let you know if I do find it, though.

I would also be interested in Fred Toben's answer to my question.

cheeb

28-12-2007, 06:33 PM

Cheeb

Here is an interesting thread for you and others to read if you can be bothered. T4 euthanasia gassing? (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=1129)

This might be of interest?

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8358/p3si1.gif

"The Brack remedy"
Interesting euphanism

Oberdensteiner Brack was,
Himmlers Driver
And overseer of the T4 Euthenasia programme
Head of the Central Office of the Chancellory of the Fuhrer

Carried out order of Himmler" code "14f13"
"Specail treatment of Prisoners"
Interesting Euphanism once again

Here is his confession at the Nuremburg trials

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/search.php?DI=1&return=1&display_setting=10&display=1&FieldFlag=12&hits=202&ID=8&lastrec=10&ListNameID=ActNameID&tblList=tblActivitiesList&srch=Activity&SearchType=Trial%20Issue&activity=8&ActName=Euthanasia%20program%20(Action%2014%20f%20 13)%20(c.%201,%204)&Condition=

5.view document>8 pages. Page5.
The url is too long!!!

phantom

28-12-2007, 08:00 PM

Hi nessa felagund

Thanks for reading the article and responding, phantom. I will look and see what I can find, but it took a while to locate the article I posted. I will let you know if I do find it, though.

It was my pleasure and I would appreciate you posting anything else you find regarding the 1926 Perry and Porter report. Good Luck in your search!

I would also be interested in Fred Toben's answer to my question.

And so would I. I will send him an e-mail in the morning and fingers crossed I get a reply.

h1s_l0rdsh1p

28-12-2007, 08:31 PM

I heard it makes a great washing detergent.

phantom

28-12-2007, 08:39 PM

Cheeb, what about Nuremberg document NI-9912?

What does it talk about other than the fumigation process with Zyklon B? (Prussic acid)

It was an official wartime information sheet on the use of hydrogen cyanide and Zyklon B and was issued by the public health agency of Bohemia-Moravia for the use in delousing chambers.

What it contains is what you would expect to find in any information sheet concerning a poison or chemical that could be dangerous to ones health if it was not used as instructed.

Zyklon B was designed to kill pests such as lice and other disease spreading bugs and the information sheet, or Nuremberg document NI-9912 states clearly:

Toxic effects on warm-blooded animals:
Since the prussic acid has practically no indicative irritant effect it is highly toxic and very dangerous. Prussic acid is one of the most powerful poisons. 1 mg. per kg. of body weight is sufficient to kill a human being. Women and children are generally more susceptible than men. Very small amounts of prussic acid do not harm the human body, even if breathed continuously. Birds and fishes are particularly susceptible to prussic acid.

I hope you are not using that part of the document and claiming it as proof that the Nazis used Zyklon B to kill people because that would be silly.

And what is with the quote from the head of the U.S. Army prosecution team, Colonel Leon Jaworski? The same man who was appointed by the Nixon administration to be the special prosecutor in the Watergate case.

Was he a witness to the alleged crimes committed?

No he wasn’t, so why quote him?

cheeb

28-12-2007, 09:29 PM

Was he a witness to the alleged crimes committed?

No he wasn’t, so why quote him?

By the same logic,
Would:
David Irvine b.1938
Ernst Zundell b.1939
Fred Leckteur b.1944
And Norman Finkelstein b.1953
Have been witnesses aswell???
Finkelstein wasn't even born!!!

phantom

28-12-2007, 11:01 PM

Fair comment cheeb

I agree none of the above you mentioned were witnesses to the events that make up the holocaust but they have all researched the subject at hand as well as many other revisionists. (I am not sure to what level Norman Finkelstein has researched the holocaust. I think he is still a believer in the stories and talks about how the zionists have used the holocaust to their own advantage)

Paul Rassinier (http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/rassinier.html) is one such revisionist who spent a few years in both Buchenwald and Dora concentration camps.

Wilhelm Stäglich (http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/staglich.html), a German judge and historian was stationed near the Auschwitz camp. As part of his duties, he maintained contact with the SS camp command, and had unlimited access to the Auschwitz main camp and never saw such genocidal gas chambers as reported by witnesses.

Tijudar Rudolph (http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/rudolph.html) was a former German Security Service member, fluent in five languages including Yiddish and Polish, Rudolph was involved with organizing Red Cross inspection tours of Auschwitz and other camps during the war. He too never saw any genocidal gas chambers.

Thies Christophersen (http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/christophersen.html) was a German army officer in the Auschwitz camp complex and during the time he was in Auschwitz, he did not notice the slightest evidence of mass gassings.

Anyway, you still didn't answer my question regarding why you used Nuremberg document NI-9912?

Was you citing that as some kind of proof that the Nazis used Zyklon B to kill people when in fact it is nothing of the kind.

cruise4

29-12-2007, 07:03 AM

Hi Phantom... I've followed some of the threads on this holocaust subject and I'm interested in what your position actually is?

I am of the opinion that people did die, but the whole affair was mainly a precursor to establishing Israel and much has been hyped to further that agenda.

I cannot understand how this attitude could be perceived as 'Hate-Mongering' or Rascist, so I'm slightly confused by some posters.

Do we want the truth of the matter, or not?

paganus

29-12-2007, 07:08 AM

ssyx

29-12-2007, 10:03 PM

swifty

30-12-2007, 10:09 AM

Heres a good site if you want to find out about Zyklon B and how it was used to kill millions

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/

weston white

31-12-2007, 02:02 AM

I recall seeing in a documentary when the victims were on the trains cramped together and the NAZI solders were walking down the sides spraying water into the trains because it was so hot and everybody was begging for water.

Arguing that it could not have worked within 10 minutes during the winter is semantics, could it during the summer? Ok, then so we know it works during some point of the year, end of that argument.

Were people killed, witnesses and photos seem to suggest that to be the case.

How were they killed, judging from the images and witnesses they were gassed, the deceased to not have any visible or bloody wounds, so that would seem to substantiate the claims of gassing did in fact take place for the majority of the victims.

Could they have not heated up the room by a furnace to get it to 80 degrees during the cold months? I do not see why this would not be feasible and easy to accomplish.

As an alternative could they have not gassed them by way of running pipes from the tailpipes of running vehicles parked outside the buildings?

cheeb

31-12-2007, 08:33 AM

So as not to be inconsistant,
Here is a list,
Of the population of Jews in Europe,
In 1942According to the Wannasee Conference
Of Jan20th 1942,
The start of the "Final Solution"(to the Jewish Problem)
Overseed by Reinhard Heyndritch,
Himmlers 2nd in command!!!

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:

Country Number

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484

Total over 11,000,000

Now where did these people go!!!
Seing as Israel has a population of

On its 59th Independence Day, April 24, 2007, the State of Israel's population stands at approximately 7,150,000 inhabitants

And the world wide population of jews is:

Most estimates I have seen suggest that there are about 13-14 million Jews in the world. The vast majority of these Jews live in either the United States and Israel, each with approximately 5-6 million Jews. There are less than 2 million Jews in Europe, 400,000 in Latin America and 350,000 in Canada. In Africa, there are less than 100,000 Jews, about 90% of whom live in the country of South Africa. There are about 100,000 Jews in Australia and New Zealand combined. There are about 50,000 Jews in Asia (not including Israel).

Thats about 13-14 Million!!!

phantom

31-12-2007, 12:55 PM

cheeb

Rgarding your posted document about Viktor Barak and the solution of the Jewish problem I refer you to the link here (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=73)

I will not post the full thread but feel free to read through it.

The reason this document is not used more often in the fight against revisionists is that most anti-revisionists now avoid using it, even among themselves. This is obvious in the fact that there would be no split between the "Intentionalists" and the "Functionalists" if NO-365 were a valid document, for NO-365 would have been proof of the "Intentionalists" position.

Brack denied participation

Brack himself denied all the relevant portions of the letter that concern him, as seen in the transcript of his questioning at the NMT [Green Series, Volume 1, pages 888-889, as found in the NWCT CD-ROM, copyright Aristarchus Knowledge Industries 1995.]

Q. I want to put to you Document NO-365, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 507 for identification, your Honors. This is a draft from the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Territories dated Berlin, 10/2/1941.

"Referent AGR. Dr. Wetzel "Re: Solution of the Jewish Question

"1. To the Reich Commissioner for the East

"Re: Your Report of 10/4/1941 Concerning Solution of the Jewish question

"Referring to my letter of 10/18/1941, you are informed that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Chancellery of the Fuehrer has declared himself ready to collaborate in the manufacture of the necessary shelters, as well as the gassing apparatus. At the present time the apparatus in question are not on hand in the Reich in sufficient number they will first have to be manufactured. Since in Brack's opinion the manufacture of the apparatus in the Reich will cause more difficulty than if manufactured on the spot, Brack deems it most expedient to send his people direct to Riga, especially his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will have everything further done there. Oberdienstleiter Brack points out that the process in question is not without danger, so that special protective measures are necessary. Under these circumstances I beg you to turn to Oberdienstleiter Brack, in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, through your Higher SS and Police Leader and to request the dispatch of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer as well as of further aides. I draw attention to the fact that Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, the referent for Jewish questions in the RSHA, is in agreement with this process. On information from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for Jews to be set up in Riga and Minsk to which Jews from the old Reich territory may possibly be sent. At the present time, Jews being deported from the old Reich are to be sent to Litzmannstadt, [Lodz] but also to other camps, to be later used as labor in the East so far as they are able to work.

"As affairs now stand, there are no objections against doing away with those Jews who are unable to work with the Brack remedy. In this way occurrences would no longer be possible such as those il which, according to a report presently before me, took place at the shooting of Jews in Vilna and which, considering that the shootings were public, were hardly excusable.
Those able to work, on the other hand, will be transported to the East for labor service. It is self-understood that among the Jews capable of work, men and women are to be kept separate. "I beg you to advise me regarding your further steps."

Herr Brack, are you still going to maintain what you said here in direct examination, namely, that you tried to protect the Jews and to save the Jews from their terrible fate and that you were never a champion of the extermination program?

A. I should even like to maintain that misuse, terrible misuse, was made of my name. I see from this letter and from the date of this letter that all these negotiations were carried out at a time when I was familiar away from Berlin, when I was on sick leave. If I have the possibility I hope I shall be able to bring witnesses who will testify to that effect. I must frankly admit that at this period something was going on which entirely contradicted my opinion, but this could only have been done under misuse of my name and my agency. I was not willing to participate in these things.

Adolf Eichmann denied participation

Adolf Eichmann also denied discussing gas chambers with Wetzel. According
to Raul Hilberg (The Destruction of the European Jews, 1985, page 875, 24n):

"In Jerusalem, Eichmann declared that he had NOT discussed gas chambers with Wetzel. Eichmann trial transcript, June 23, 1961, sess. 78, p. R1; July 17, 1961, sess. 98, p. Bb1."

Wetzer was never punished

Wetzel was never punished for his alleged role in this matter. According to Ingrid Weckert, who wrote an eleven-page study of this document in June 1990, Wetzel had no trouble after the war with the Allies and worked for the UN in Cuba. In 1961, he was indicted by a German magistrate in Hannover. Wetzel was not asked any questions about the "Vergasungsapparate" mentioned in the letter, and to this day we have no idea what this means. The prosecutor was satisfied with Wetzel's answers, and decided there would be no trial.

No gassings in Riga

No one now claims there were gassings in Riga.

Conclusion

When given the choice of all the documents said to support claims of homicidal gassing by the Third Reich, Brian Harmon chose this one. Therefore, we must conclude that this document represents Harmon's best documentary evidence of the existence of homicidal Nazi gas chambers. The reader is invited to judge for himself: if this is the "best evidence," how weak must be the rest of the so-called evidence?

Please remember that we are constantly told that the Holocaust is the best-documented event in history, yet supporters of the Holocaust extermination stories are forced to rely on documents such as NO-365 that are essentially worthless. Rather than hunt up further worthless documents, it would be far better for the anti-revisionists to meet Robert Faurisson's challenge:

phantom

31-12-2007, 01:18 PM

Hi cruise4

Hi Phantom... I've followed some of the threads on this holocaust subject and I'm interested in what your position actually is?

My position is I no longer believe what I had been taught and believed for most of my life regarding the holocaust. I deny it and challenge anyone to debate me on the issue in an intelligent manner.

I am of the opinion that people did die, but the whole affair was mainly a precursor to establishing Israel and much has been hyped to further that agenda.

There is no doubt in my mind that many people did die in the camps during the years 1939 - 1945 that is not in dispute.

There were many outbreaks of diseases throughout those years in the camps and the Nazis did their best to stem it but it became worse towards the end of the war thanks to the allied bombings of the train lines. Because of the lack of food and medicine towards the wars end many thousands perished from typhus and other diseases as well as hunger.

I cannot understand how this attitude could be perceived as 'Hate-Mongering' or Rascist, so I'm slightly confused by some posters.

You and me both but I believe the negative responses I am getting is an indoctrinated response. I have already made myself clear several times that it has nothing to do with me hating jews or me being a racist but it seems to be falling on many deaf ears.

Do we want the truth of the matter, or not?

Good question! That is why I am addressing this matter. I am not bothered by the hate people direct at me, I simply brush it off and move on with my quest for the truth.

phantom

31-12-2007, 01:25 PM

Hi paganus

i think some people are just afraid of being percieved that way,so they steer clear.(which of course is the plan)!

Yes, I also believe fear has a lot to do with it. Many people will not reexamine what they have been told about the holocaust through fear of being labeled, or in some cases fined and jailed.

phantom

31-12-2007, 01:42 PM

Hi swifty and thanks for the link to the Holocaust History Project.

Here is a link to the CODOH (http://forum.codoh.info/viewforum.php?f=2) (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) where the likes of Richard J. Green, Jamie McCarthy and Andy Mathis articles have been thoroughly debunked by revisionists there.

phantom

31-12-2007, 02:22 PM

Hi weston white

I recall seeing in a documentary when the victims were on the trains cramped together and the NAZI solders were walking down the sides spraying water into the trains because it was so hot and everybody was begging for water.

I'm not sure I understand your point there?

Arguing that it could not have worked within 10 minutes during the winter is semantics, could it during the summer? Ok, then so we know it works during some point of the year, end of that argument.

This might interest you. An article by Andy Mathis regarding Introduction to the Essay General Semantics and Holocaust Denial that was bunked here (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=2816&highlight=semantics)

Were people killed, witnesses and photos seem to suggest that to be the case.

Nobody is disputing that people were killed in the camps, the dispute is the use of Zyklon B.

How were they killed, judging from the images and witnesses they were gassed, the deceased to not have any visible or bloody wounds, so that would seem to substantiate the claims of gassing did in fact take place for the majority of the victims.

We cannot tell by any of the holocaust photos if someone was gassed with Zyklon B can we? And many witnesses have been proven liars even the most famous of the witnesses.

Could they have not heated up the room by a furnace to get it to 80 degrees during the cold months? I do not see why this would not be feasible and easy to accomplish.

Nope! Because the so called genocidal gas chamber at Auschwitz had no such heating devise connected to it as admitted by the French pharmacist and holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac.

As an alternative could they have not gassed them by way of running pipes from the tailpipes of running vehicles parked outside the buildings?

Not in Auschwitz. But let’s say if they did use petrol fumes (which they are now trying to say was used instead of diesel) then yes it would have been possible but the claim is they used diesel in some camps from either a Soviet/French tank/truck/submarine engine. Claims by the witnesses again do not add up and have been debunked. For instance, some claimed that after gassing with diesel fumes the bodies were blue when in fact people dead from Diesel fumes (Carbon monoxide poisoning) go a reddish pink colour as shown in the picture below.

http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Gresham/GAGreshamfig59p74wCaption.jpg

phantom

31-12-2007, 02:52 PM

cheeb

Regarding the Wannsee Conference I direct you to the following link. The Wannsee Conference Protocol: Anatomy of a Fabrication (http://www.codoh.com/found/fndwannsee.html)

And for the missing millions I direct you to the following links as food for thought.

American Jewish Yearbook population figures (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=4289&highlight=emigration)

The missing 6 million (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=4677)

East European Immigration to the United States (The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser,. Vol 45, No. 4, Tercentenary Issue. Apr,. 1955) (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=3841&highlight=emigration)

Where did they go? Killed? (http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=1083&highlight=emigration)

dogsmilk

31-12-2007, 05:25 PM

Hello people.

I've lurked here on and off for a while, and it's with little surprise I see that Holocaust denial evangelism is door knocking here.
I was going to get stuck in with arguing the toss, but I won't. I've wasted too much time arguing about it elsewhere.
I just wanted to say that what strikes me is how in the 'conspiracy theory' scene, you always seem to get one or two people turn up on a forum absolutely desperate to push Holocaust denial, bamboozling people with endless links to the standard denier canon. I'd just suggest people ask themselves why certain individuals are so desperate to push their wares with such determination and if you're genuinely curious take the time to properly study the published literature rather than a bunch of stuff people stuck up on the net. I've been reading into this subject for the last few months and feel I've barely scratched the surface - furthermore I've been repeatedly struck by the sheer volume of lying and misrepresentation coming from the denier camp. I'm not here to get caught in a meaningless debate with denier fundamentalists, so I'd just recommend people do their own research, make their own minds and follow the chain of distortions for themselves.
CODOH is being repeatedly referred to, yet it's well known CODOH is basically a denier back-scratching club that censors and bans the 'wrong' opinions.
A far better forum is RODOH - it's even run by a denier, so can't be accused of bias the other way. It just doesn't practice censorship or use absurd posting rules.
http://p102.ezboard.com/brodohforum
Many of the same anti-deniers post here
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
Which carries some interesting criotiques of standard denier fare
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/quick-links.html#debuv
Swifty posted an article from HHP which is a site that also carries much interesting material
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
I'd personally say Nizkor isn't as good but still worth a look
http://www.nizkor.org/

A couple of excellent texts are the case for Auschwitz by Robert Jan Van pelt and Holocaust Denial - Demographics, Testimonies and Ideologies by John C Zimmerman - they're both expensive (the latter horrifically so) but I managed to pick up cheap copies by looking around.
But the historical works of the likes of Saul Friedlander, Christopher Browning and Raul Hilberg (among many others) are worth the study.

I don't intend to reply, but would just ask phantom if (s)he could specify what exactly is meant by
Nope! Because the so called genocidal gas chamber at Auschwitz had no such heating devise connected to it as admitted by the French pharmacist and holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac.
as there were a number of gas chambers at Auschwitz. I find it particularly confusing as in his paper the machinery of mass murder at Auschwitz (co-authored with Van Pelt, in Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp - another good book worth a read) he quite clearly talks about pre-heated gas chambers, stating explicitly the problems associated with getting Zyklon B to work properly in the infamous 'little red house' and 'little white house' bunkers as winter set in motivated moving extermination to the crematoria. So a page reference to where Pressac says none of the gas chambers were pre-heated would be appreciated.
I have many other queries, but I can't be arsed.
Interested readers can view Pressac's original major work here -
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0011.shtml
Auschwitz certainly had one helluva lot of ovens. It would appear these Nazis felt the need to be cremating very large numbers of people, yet still had to resort to open air burning as the crems packed in under the strain. Funny, that.

Anyway, I did find the 'Zyklon B experiment' video very funny. I particularly liked the 'doctor', identifiable as such by the fact they had a stethoscope and white coat. The medical professionalism of the scrupulous medical examination consisting in the first instance of listening to a guy's heartbeat through his shirt was a joy to behold. I am fully confident they were a professional physician, just as I am confident men in white coats on soap powder adverts are 'scientists'.
I also liked the way the shadow cast on the hut didn't move at all over the course of (allegedly) an hour. I do enjoy these 'slow sun days'.
I do of course believe everything I watch on the internet as an accurate record of true events - just like I believe everything I see on TV.

Anyway, that's my tiny tuppence worth, so I'll be off.
Happy New Year David Icke people!

cheeb

31-12-2007, 10:37 PM

Thanks Dogmilk.
Can Phantom answer this question,
If he hasn't already tried,
Where Are They???

Let me give my two cents to this thread here.
I'm not a specialist in Aktion Reinhard camps or Romanian Jews, but I've been studying Auschwitz, especially the fate of the Germans who were sent there, in great detail (BTW, a hitherto understudied subject).

In the course of one week, between March, 2 and 7, 1943, 10,948 Jewish Germans from the Reich arrived at Auschwitz. We know the total number from the files of the Reichsvereinigung der Juden. What is more, the deportation lists from Berlin have come down
to us. They contain, for every deportee, name, first name, date and place of birth, and last address of residency. From Berlin alone, 6,988 persons are precisely documented, that is about 2/3 of the whole group.

Now, from the above mentioned 10,948 persons only 3587 were taken in (and registered) as prisoners, 2,342 men and 1,245 women. We know this from a list compiled by prisoners from the Political Department, who wrote down the arrival date of every transport, from which prisoners were taken in, and the range of prisoner numbers given to them. Though only a tiny part of the prisoner files has come down to us, there are enough extant files to corroborate this, as kind of a sample survey.

From those taken in (and given a prisoner number), a few have survived the end of the war and returned to Germany, at least temporarily. From their testimony - independently corroborated by testimony of Polish prisoners, who had been employed with unloading the transports and handling the deportees' luggage - we know that the 2,342 men were directly sent to the Buna sub-camp and that the 1,245 women were billeted at Birkenau.

About the 7,361 who were not taken in, among them all the elderly people and children, we know from survivor testimonies that they were also marched to Birkenau (only those unable to walk, were carried by trucks). After entering the camp gate, nothing was heard or seen from them any more. Not a single person of this group has ever reappeared. From an extant telegram sent by the head of the Auschwitz Labor Assignment Department to his superiors, referring to the transport from Berlin which arrived on March 4, we learn that those not taken in had received "special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung), because they were not fit for work. Please don't tell me that the telegram is a "forgery." The number of prisoners, the place of origin of the transport, and the date of arrival tally with the extant transport list, which was found much later, by chance, in the files of the very tax office that handled the exploitation of the estate of the deported Jewish Germans from Berlin.

"Orthodox" historians are convinced that these 7,361 people were
immediately killed in the gas chambers and their corpses burnt in the crematoria. Do "Revisionists" have another explanation?

Original source
Jo neander

Come on Phantom,
Give it your best shot!!!

weston white

01-01-2008, 12:39 AM

Great info Dogsmilk!

My point was just that perhaps some of the people got their dates and times confused or perhaps the lied intentionally with the intention that their stories would not make sense or be possible when their claims were later investigated. As well my point was that if you can do it at any point during the year, then what does it matter, i.e. if you can do it during the summer but not the winter, and you do it during the summer, then are you not still guilty of these crimes, even though you can't do it throughout the year?

Does it really matter what compound was used? Could they have used a variety of compounds and methods? Could they have not performed experiments upon their victims? The point is the crimes they committed and not the means they used to cause the loss of lives. Only they know that for certain.

Finally, imagine being taking into a icy cold freezing cold, cold, cold, (to the point of being seamlessly sterile) room and told to strip all of your clothing off... would you willingly comply or would you start to get the impression that something bad was about to happen? Would they not want to give the impression that everything was ok and keep the people comfortable so they will remain in complete compliance?

cheeb

01-01-2008, 12:39 AM

Sean x,
Throw a bucket of cold water over this Fucker,
He has been well and truly Pwned,
!!!

:)

dogsmilk

01-01-2008, 02:59 PM

I just wanted to make a further point about how Holocaust denial works.

Ok, let's start off with the fact we have a large number of eyewitnesses saying people were gassed (and shot etc). These include Jews, Nazis
and others such as e.g. Polish political prisoners at Auschwitz. It's very difficult to be 'mistaken' about mass murder, but are huge swathes of people lying? Are their accounts corroborated in any way?

Well at Auschwitz, we know for example in Crematorium III, the Nazis in installed both shower heads and a gas tight door.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0429.shtml
There was also an "undressing room". So these components of a building fit rather well with the notion that this building at least functioned as a gas chamber.

Then, we also know that the Nazis developed an astonishing capacity for cremating bodies at Auschwitz. For example, there is the famous memo from Bischoff of June 1943 that states the capacity of the crematoria as 4756 bodies per 24 hours. Lower on the scale, a letter from Topf (who built the ovens) engineer Kurt Prufer with a total adding up to 2650 per day (Van Pelt has pointed out since Topf were responsible for maintaining this kit, it was in their interests to keep their estimates low). It reads:

TOPF To J.A. TOPF UND SÖHNE Erfurt, September 8, 1942

Department D IV

Our Mark: D IV/Prf./hes
In Matters of: Reichsführer SS, Berlin-Lichterfelde-West.
Concerning: Krematorium-Auschwitz.

Confidential! Secret!

8.9.42 Herr Obersturmführer Krone calls to say that he was
summoned to meet with Brigadeführer Kämmer and
to report on his inspection of the crematorium in Auschwitz,
whence he had returned yesterday. He could make nothing
of the facilities at Auschwitz and wanted therefore to inform
himself on how many muffles are in operation there at this
time and how many ovens with muffles we are building there
and are still to be delivered.

I told him that at this time 3 double-muffle
ovens are in operation, with a capacity of
250 per day. Further, currently under
construction are 5 triple muffle ovens

with a daily capacity of 800. Today and in the next few
days, 2 eight-muffle ovens, each with a daily capacity
of 800, will come on consignment, redirected from Mogilew.

Mr K said that this number of muffles is not yet sufficient;
we should deliver more ovens as quickly as possible.

Thus, it is appropriate that I come to Berlin Thursday
morning in order to discuss further deliveries with Mr K.
I should bring documents on Auschwitz with me, so that
the urgent calls can be finally silenced once and for all.

I have agreed to the visit for Thursday.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/

Bolding mine - we see here how Mr Prufer thought this astonishing cremation capacity simply was not enough. Irrespective of how many people in reality the Nazis could physically dispose of per 24 hours they were certainly 'aiming high' and building expensive state of the art ovens in the middle of a war. It far outstrips regular concentration camps and bear in mind the entire camp population was around 100,000 - so apparently Prufer thinks that more than a fifth of the camp population being cremated in an allegedly perfectly innnocent work camp every two days simply isn't enough. Why the desire to be able to cremate so many people?

Then we have Himmler speaking quite explicitly about exterminating the Jews.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/himmler-poznan-large.mov

Then, we consider the point Cheeb just raised (very interesting post btw) - lots of people went to Auschwitz (and other camps) and subsequently vanished. Cheeb talks about Germans - there are lots of others, such as the Hungarian Jews.

So now, taking just a tiny sample of the available evidence, we see that witnesses described mass killings, we see building modifications consistent with this, a capacity for mass cremation consistent with this, description of extermination of Jews consistent with this and 'vanishing Jews' consistent with this. Only a total moron would be surprised the Nazis at least attempted to be a tad secretive about genocide and destroyed a lot of evidence, but what remains fits with what witnessess describe.

But the methodology of Holocaust denial prefers to move towards microscopic nit-picking and avoid the convergence of evidence.
Eyewitnesses? Well they all lied, were subject to mass hysteria, were tortured or otherwise coerced. All of them. Based on...? Well, they had to as the Holocaust didn't happen. And of course there are inconsistencies and contradictions in their testimony. For some reason, the Holocaust is the one event in history where a mass of eyewitnesses are expected to be universally totally consistent in every detail whereas generally everyone accepts 5 people witnessing a car crash will give slightly different accounts of what exactly happened.
So at the end of the second world war there was probably the largest outbreak of mass lying in history. Presumably orchestrated by a mysterious cabal of Jews.
But!
Anyone saying what you like is instantly credible.

Paul Rassinier is one such revisionist who spent a few years in both Buchenwald and Dora concentration camps.

Wilhelm Stäglich, a German judge and historian was stationed near the Auschwitz camp. As part of his duties, he maintained contact with the SS camp command, and had unlimited access to the Auschwitz main camp and never saw such genocidal gas chambers as reported by witnesses.

Tijudar Rudolph was a former German Security Service member, fluent in five languages including Yiddish and Polish, Rudolph was involved with organizing Red Cross inspection tours of Auschwitz and other camps during the war. He too never saw any genocidal gas chambers.

Thies Christophersen was a German army officer in the Auschwitz camp complex and during the time he was in Auschwitz, he did not notice the slightest evidence of mass gassings.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16357&page=5

Ok, let's take the first two as they're the most famous - Rassinier wasn't in a camp where exterminations took place. He

had apparently been beaten by a communist fellow-prisoner in the Buchenwald concentration camp for failing to recognise or pay his respects to the imprisoned German communist leader Ernst Thalmann...Not only did his fellow-prisoners seem more dangerous than the SS guards to him, therefore; Rassinier also got a relatively easy job in the infirmary on his transfer to camp 'Dora' in the Harz mountains. where he was evidently well treated by his boss, a senior SS officer. These experiences seem to have prejudiced him strongly in favour of the Nazis. He initially published a defence of the SS against its critics and denied reports by survivors of atrocities in the camp, then went on to dispute the existence of gas chambers and to assert it was the Jews who had started the Second World War

- telling lies about hitler by Richard J.Evans p.115 (incidentally, that ''champion of free speech' David Irving seriously impeded the publication of this work with his libel threats - he'd already tried to silence Deborah Lipstadt and Gita Sereny.)

Staglich was

Serving with an anti-aircraft battery unit near Auschwitz, he had visited the main camp a few times, and "on none of these visits did I see gassing installations, crematoria, instruments of torture, or similar horrors."
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/vanpelt/vanpelt-witness.shtml

So a guy in 'regular' camps who got on ok with the SS and a man from a flak battery who says he didn't happen to see any 'special actions' (had he ever even been to Birkenau itself? The vast majority of gassings did not take place in the main camp. Mind you, nobody disputes the existence of the large crematoria buildings themselves, so Staglich is basically admitting he saw bugger all of the camp when he says he saw no crematoria) take place are to be totally believed as giving cast iron testimony there was no Holocaust - the God knows how many others who say unequivocally mass murder was taking place are all a bunch of filthy liars.
Do the words "double" and "standard" spring to mind for anyone else here?
But it doesn't matter - the denier must just keep picking at the testimony however they can.

Then you can argue about different conceivable functions of various buildings. The "undressing room" is in a "typical morgue sense" (whatever that means). It was a morgue. It was an air raid shelter. It was whatever you can make conceivably possible.
(interesting discussion of this kind of thing here)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/vanpelt/vanpelt-showerheads.shtml
Just keep thinking of other ways the building can be described and think of a creative 'explanation' for each feature consistent with gassings.

Then you argue about how many bodies the Nazis could actually have disposed of. Try to make out it was impossible to burn all those bodies. Try to avoid people thinking about why they wanted this capacity and why Auschwitz had so many damn ovens compared to other camps.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

Then argue about semantics with Himmler. He was talking about partisans. He was speaking metaphorically. Anything but the obvious.

Then claim the Jews really were "re-settled". There is some hitherto undiscovered shangri-la deep in Russia where a multinational community of Jews are just waiting to be found and act bemused as to what all the fuss was about. Or else 'the Zionists' have them hidden in an air raid shelter deep under Jerusalem and keep telling them the war's still happening and they can't come out yet.

At all costs avoid noticing how the totality of evidence corroborates what witnesses tell us - debatable in the minute detail (it must be remembered there will always be debate about the minutiae among Holocaust scholars), but clear in the overall chain of events.
Any individual piece of evidence a denier feels they have cast doubt on is a 'victory', because each piece of evidence is taken as an isolated factoid, not a whole set of interrelated evidence that points to the same conclusion human beings who suffered enormously (or inflicted or colluded with suffering) described in the first place.

For an encore, invoke people like Norman Finkelstein who have sharply criticised the politicisation of the Holocaust and pointed out there are some frauds out there. Conveniently ignore the fact he thinks Holocaust deniers are crackpots not worth bothering with. Try to use the entire debate about how the Holocaust is presented as an argument it didn't happen.

Also, try not to be too fussy about the quality of your information. If you feel you can win a convert, use it. For example, Phantom has linked to Germar Rudolf - Rudolf is an intelligent guy and presents complex arguments that have at least an academic veneer. On the other hand, (s)he also says -

The Skunks website has a good article on Auschwitz. Lets stop with the Auschwitz lies
http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm

Now Phantom clearly knows a bit about the holocaust and describes this as a "good article"; yet this page only appears remotely plausible if you know nothing about Auschwitz. Just a few examples -
It says "this was a work camp". well, er, yeah - primarily it was. No-one ever said any different. And showing a picture of buildings in the main camp where the Poles were doesn't say anything about the Holocaust. Basically the article scuppers itself at the outset by saying Auschwitz was a work camp when everyone else thinks it evolved into an enormous work camp that also evolved an accompanying extermination function for part of its existence. Pointing out the 'work camp' aspects does exactly zero to undermine the extermination aspects. Just how fucking thick is this skunk guy? Nobody disputes there was a brothel or a theatre or an old water reservoir guards and favoured prisoners used as a swimming pool. Many of these facets were clearly covered the last time the beeb covered the subject - this doc has a whole segment on the brothel for starters -
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Auschwitz-Nazis-Solution-Dominic-Sutherland/dp/B0006FNXNA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1199188261&sr=1-1
Since the orchestra is mentioned (hardly a big secret e.g.)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/auschwitz_orch.html
, I'll also mention a concentration camp jazz band started by the Jew Eddie Rosner. Except this band was in a Soviet gulag. So does a jazz band in a gulag indicate the gulags were basically holiday camps where people weren't terribly mistreated?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Rosner#Repressions
Weirdly, the same eyewitnesses who describe mass murder also frequently describe such aspects of the camp. But we can't trust them surely? Aren't they all pathological liars?
It even says
Dr. Carl Clauberg

Famous Berlin surgeon who handled difficult cases
Yet anyone with a brain doing a simple google search sees Clauberg was infamous for performing sterilisation experiments. Skunk doesn't even try to argue anything different. The whole page fits the usual Judicialbiz modus operandi of unevidenced assertions, not referencing things, giving links that don't really back up its claims or just talking about stuff that's totally irrelevant while trying to imply it somehow is.
In fact anyone with a modicum of intelligence perusing Judicialbiz will notice that even if it rains during Wimbledon fortnight that site would be apt to claim 'the Jews' are responsible.
Yet Phantom is apparently happy to veer between the cream of denial and a crude anti-semitic propaganda site only conceivably appealing to the deeply ignorant if it says the right thing - and thus might get another member for the congregation.

When Hagberd Celine something like

The room at Auschwitz we're told was used to kill millions of people has a very ordinary-looking door made of wood with a window made of ordinary glass.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16134&page=2

Phantom apparently doesn't need to point out that that it's generally thought about 1.1 million people died in total, that none of the truly lethal buildings are still standing and that the door is perhaps not the original. Or even mention Nazi "gas tight door" ordering. Stuff (s)he surely knows.

Also interesting are the themes that repeatedly accompany Holocaust denial - namely that Jews/Zionists (remember! it's just some Jews that are evil and rule the world - you don't want to sound like some kind of Nazi or something) are responsible for pretty much everything up to and including the extinction of the dinosaurs and that really, when you think about it, Hitler really wasn't such a bad chap and when he was eliminating political freedom and rounding up people he didn't like he kinda meant well.

Holocaust denial has historically - for some reason - been the baby of the far right.
It's very difficult to assert the Jews are evil and simultaneously running capitalism and communism if they couldn't stop the mass murder of their people. But if....they invented it...then that proves the Jews must be incredibly powerful and inherently nefarious, right?
The cretinous knuckle-dragging clowns (sorry - Aryan supermen) of Stormfront are universally deniers because it's integral to their worldview.
As it is, Holocaust denial is kinda dying in the 'real world' - they key deniers are aging and predominently rely on old and thoroughly discredited arguments. What better way to get it going again, than to put it out and about on the net where there are many people who just don't have the time or inclination to meaningfully study a vast and complex field? As I said previously, I've been reading into the subject for a few months and still feel I know basically fuck-all. I know enough not to be bamboozled by denier bullshit though.
After all, the media presentation of the Holocaust - in film, sensationalist documentaries, even some of the museums - is often flawed. This is not surprising - the media presentation of e.g. medieval Europe is similarly simplified and flawed - but can make the 'anomalies' seem more convincing.

What I think would be useful is if Phantom could explain how as a tiny set of evidence -
a/Eyewitness claims
b/Gas tight door, showers, undressing room in crematorium III
c/A clear need for an enormous cremation capacity
d/Himmler's speech
e/Jews deported to camps and subsequently no longer able to be found alive anywhere
These five points together as a whole point to the Holocaust not actually happening.

seanx

02-01-2008, 01:18 AM

An extraordinary post, dogsmilk in detail and logic.

Well done for taking the time to do it.

We should be very grateful to yourself and Cheebs's posts.

Reminds me of Edmunds Burke's ......'When men of good will do nothing.....
evil flourish....'.

At least, in this case, men of good will HAVE spoken.......

dogsmilk

02-01-2008, 02:08 PM

Thanks Sean X for your kind words.
I don't, however, think it's got anything to do with being good as opposed to just not liking bullshit that pisses on the memory of the dead just to have a pop at Jews or Zionists or whatever.
Not that deniers don't say stuff I don't know the answer to, but my own experience has been they lie and distort so often I'm amazed anyone takes this stuff seriously.

I really didn't intend to stick around here, but I've noticed one segment in particular earlier in this thread I find so extraordinary I just have to comment on it.
Talking about T4, Phantom said -

The origins of planned euthanasia were in place earlier than the Nazi era. "The idea of ending 'lives not worth living' did not begin with the Nazis, but had been discussed in the legal and medical literatures since the end of the First World War", with supportive articles appearing in both European and American literature (Proctor, 1992, p. 24). In 1920, Dr. Alfred Hoche, a physician, and Karl Binding published a pamphlet entitled "The Sanctioning of the Destruction of Life Unworthy of Living". The emphasis of the book was on the reduction of suffering of the acutely ill and their families (Nadav, 1994, p. 45).

Today, Euthanasia is now law in several countries and is being considered by others. if you want my honest opinion, I am all for it if that is the wishes of the parents. Just as I am all for assisted suicide if the person cannot perform the task by themselves.

Now it's true that the eugenics movement was not confined to Germany and was indeed heavily influenced by American thinking and it's also true compulsary sterilisation was not an exclusively Nazi phenomenon. However, the fact that others were into such ideas has simply no bearing on the moral repugnance regarding Nazi attitudes towards the disabled and mentally ill. Otherwise it's like saying that because Saddam Hussain killed Iraqi civilians that somehow lessens the moral impact of American soldiers killing Iraqi civilians. Furthermore, only the Nazis actually instituted a program of mass killing - some Americans would have been up for this, but the fact is there was simply too much widespread antipathy to such notions for it to occur. So again, you can't say that because some Americans would have liked to kill the disabled this in any way lessens the impact of the fact the Nazis did kill the disabled in their thousands.

But then, I simply can't understand why the fact "Euthanasia is now law in several countries" has any relevance whatsoever and can only wonder why that statement was made.
Of the top of my head, contemporary euthanasia falls into I'd say three main brackets. There may be more but I can't think of any right now.
a/The right to die by individual informed consent where quality of life is horribly impaired by illness or mortality is imminent anyway with only a brief unpleasant life to look forward to. This hinges solely on the individual actively choosing to die and the ethical issues involve the potential for pressure or exploitation on the part of others if this is a legal policy. Effective safeguards are always of paramount importance.
b/The right for a parent to terminate the life of an unborn child where that child will be severely disabled. This is basically the abortion debate, always a hot potato. Whatever one thinks of the ethics, the right to abortion hinges essentially on the rights of the parents, most specifically the mother who has to carry and deliver the child.
c/Passive euthanasia of the terminally ill. This tends to hinge on whether a person who is incapable of survival without direct ongoing medical intervention should have this withdrawn. This may apply to point a/, but I draw the distinction to cover people who may be unconscious on life support machines or cases such as the fairly recent one where doctors wished to remove medical support for a severely disabled young child who could not survive without constant medical attention and was seen as having no chance of survival for a contrary to the wishes of the parent. This again involves much ethical discussion and has involved legal wranglings.

All these issues are highly controversial and everyone agrees there should be 100% transparency at every stage, whatever their ethical standpoint.

The Nazis, however, chose instead to kill people who were generally not terminally ill, who frequently had every chance of living to a reasonable age and this wasn't just without consulting the person or their family - they just decided the person was to die and told the family lies about their actual cause of death. Decisions were made on the doctors simply reviewing case notes - they sentenced patients to death without ever having met them. Needless to say, Jews had little chance of their 'medical review' getting a 'live' verdict. They were basing their policy on pseudo-scientific eugenic ideology concerned with preserving the 'health of the race', not on any specific consideration of individual quality of life (though their propaganda did focus on this issue in a specious fashion) or the right of the individual to choose to die.

Can phantom point to any contemporary state that is/is proposing to institute a mass program of extermination of disabled people without the knowledge or consent of either the individual or their family and which routinely lies to the family about the cause of death? This would be a relevant comparison. Which wouldn't, of course, make what the Nazis did any better, but it would be interesting to hear if Phantom would approve.

Funnily enough, around the time T4 was being officially halted, the Nazis introduced the individual rights notion only later - the 1941 film I accuse concerned a bloke helping his wife suffering horribly with (IIRC) MS to die, whereas a couple of earlier 1930s films had focused on the 'survival of the fittest' and 'do we really want to let these retards leech off healthy Aryans?' angle.
Of course, T4 did not go down well with the populace when folk started to cotton on to what was going down. Nobody likes to find out Auntie Edna has been quietly executed for being schizophrenic after you were told she died of some infection or whatever.
As it turned out, T4 was a major PR gaffe (as the Holocaust in general is for neo-Nazis around the world) which was demonstrably given the green light by Hitler; some have argued the Nazis learned a few lessons here as the Final Solution got going, but that would have to remain as speculation.

Without getting sidetracked into Aktion Renhardt, I just wanted to observe how it's remarkable how the bulk of the T4 crew were unfortunately subsequently relegated to working at "transit camps" after they'd just accumulated all that unique experience of gassing people in fake shower rooms. Still, considering these blundering Nazis frequently shipped Jews west to these camps as they were supposedly en route to the east and subsequently appeared to lose them totally, I suppose it's not that surprising really (Phantom earlier on this thread links to a CODOH thread full of meandering speculation which apparently 'explains' where they went).

So I simply cannot understand the relevance to contemporary debates on euthanasia. Though I am obviously unable to deduce the mental states of others, I can only assume Phantom either:
a/Mistakenly invoked a highly dissimilar (in both practice and associated ethics) and thus irrelevant issue.
b/Is trying to whitewash mass murder.

But then I can't understand this either - Phantom links to a thread on CODOH where their Fuhrer Hannover makes this rather offensive comment

The entire fake showers, gassing sequence gives the lie away. Why would the Germans need to deceive the mentally and terminally ill into thinking they were about to get a shower in order to gas them?...as if they could think or resist at all. Makes no sense as usual.

http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=1129

Apparently thinking it's a quality observation, Phantom subsequently replicates this point in a less overtly offensive fashion:

I am so glad that you pointed out that they supposedly did the same thing in the T4 euthanasia mental hospitals regarding the fake shower heads. What good would it have been to install fake shower heads when they were going to gas incurably ill, physically or mentally disabled people? I find it astounding that such rubbish is believed by people.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16134&page=2

Now Weston White above states the obvious about how deception will make people more malleable - people may be liable to freak out if they think they are about to be killed, not to mention it makes the job of the executioner more traumatic if they are confronted with acute distress. This is particularly relevant to T4 which adopted a pseudo 'clinical' approach. Not so much murdered as being put to sleep. However, it is here apparently being suggested that disabled and mentally ill people are somehow congenital imbeciles who don't know what's going on. This is both deeply offensive and utterly ludicrous. If we take mental illness, the fact someone is, say, schizophrenic has exactly zero bearing on their actual intelligence. (though if you're paranoid you might be apt to be rather more prone to being suspicious as to what's going on. In this instance, just because you're paranoid it certainly didn't mean they're not out to get you) and shows a lack of understanding of breathtaking proportions. I happen to have done a LOT of mental health work and cannot even begin to describe the level of ignorance displayed here.
Even people with severe learning difficulties can be surprisingly sharp at times. Though perhaps the people of CODOH wouldn't care to associate much with the 'racially defective' to find out. Indeed, the fact that Phantom and his buddies at CODOH appear to reduce people with a wide range of disabilities to being inevitably a bunch of totally passive and bewildered idiots says a lot more about their personal attitudes than it does about T4.

Interested readers may like to hear that HHP have kindly made available online the full text of the nazi doctors by Robert Jay Lifton. It does what it says on the tin, so inevitably a work on Nazi doctors has a lot on T4. Lifton tracked down a load of Nazi doctors and interviewed them at length as the core of his research. Mind you, Lifton is a Jewish psychiatrist and gave pseudonyms to his interviewees to protect their confidentiality, so I'm sure certain parties can comfort themselves regarding any inconvenient pasages by simply claiming he made it all up.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/

hapax

03-01-2008, 02:25 AM

There's one basic point that all the anti-Nazi haters like cheeb, seanx are forgetting.

If you fill an airtight sealed room with people, they will soon die of suffocation anyway.

So why bother with the whole rigmarole of scattering Zyklon B pellets amongst tightly-packed "victims" when Zyklon B takes 24 hours minimum to kill moths? The "victims" would have been dead long before (remember the container load of 58 dead Chinese illegal immigrants (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/5/newsid_2467000/2467923.stm)? - that was in 5 hours....).

"Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building. The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises. Spaces difficult to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one begins with the top floor, and then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms already charged. Even under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas more than is absolutely necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the building; warning notices must be put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to prevent unauthorised persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to be attacked; for the destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24 hours will suffice, against other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours."
-Zyklon B Factfile (http://www.historiography-project.org/misc/ar/zyklonb.html)

During the War the Allies bombed all the German chemical and pharmaceutical factories, railways, bridges, roads etc, rendering all insecticides (including Zyklon B), disinfectants, medicines and food unobtainable. The consequences were entirely predictable - emaciated victims living in filth with piles of typhus-ridden dead bodies.

So in fact the Allies were responsible.

dogsmilk

03-01-2008, 10:30 AM

So are you suggesting the resilience of insects to toxins is directly comparable to that of humans? You are suggesting it's as easy to eliminate all lice from a room as it is to poison a bunch of humans crammed into a comparable room? Extraordinary.
You're also suggesting it is as quick and efficient to shut a bunch of people in a room and wait for them to asphyxiate than to poison them when they're all crammed in? Of course a bunch of people crammed in tight together, raising the temperature and fighting for breath will doubtless help the fatal impact of Zyklon B, so in a way it's a good point you've raised.
I was always under the impression German production held up remarkably well under Allied bombing, but you appear to be just boldly asserting that pretty much all German manufacturing of anything was destroyed. In fact, I always thought the relative inefficiency of the highly inaccurate bombing and subsequent death toll on civilians and destruction of their homes is one of the arguments as to why it was morally unjustified, but there you go.
Mind you, you say the Allies bombed the bridges when it's clear they're the last thing an invading army wants to bomb - the Germans blew up the bridges themselves for obvious reasons. They also tore up train lines as they retreated. Again, the reasons for this are obvious. Though it didn't take very long at at all to get them up and running again - the Russians even managed to very quickly sort out problems caused by them using a different guage for their trains, so I think you're over-egging the issues caused by transport disruption.
I've personally never seen anything to demonstrate all Zyklon B production had been bombed out of existence prior to late 1944, but if you say so...
You conclude with blaming the allies for the emaciated victims found in the camps. While it is true that at the very end of the war Germany was in chaos, do you have any evidence whatsoever German civilians, German soldiers. British POWs etc were found in any comparable state to the 'living skeletons' found in the camps? How come people were found in an appalling state in Belsen when civilian residents nearby were doing just fine? Etc.

Just to add - you refer to Cheeb and Sean X as "anti-Nazi haters" in a pejorative way. Does this mean you would be happier if they were pro-Nazi? I suspect so as I see elsewhere you're into this ridiculous 'Hitler was just trying to fight evil Jewish bankers and the Soviets were all Jews' crap. You even cite Antony Sutton's wall street and the Bolshevik revolution as evidence, conveniently ignoring the appendix in which he explicitly states Bolshevism had nothing to do with a Jewish conspiracy. You'll find it on page 185 of the hard copy - look for appendix II in the online edition. He concludes:

The persistence with which the Jewish-conspiracy myth has been pushed suggests that it may well be a deliberate device to divert attention from the real issues and the real causes. The evidence provided in this book suggests that the New York bankers who were also Jewish had relatively minor roles in supporting the Bolsheviks, while the New York bankers who were also Gentiles (Morgan, Rockefeller, Thompson) had major roles.

What better way to divert attention from the real operators than by the medieval bogeyman of anti-Semitism?

This 'spirit of 1933' that appears to flourish in certain quarters of the internet is certainly fascinating - it's just sad people are so easily sucked in by the same crap that made Nazism possible in the first place. In actuality I suspect many of the people pushing this Nazi crap online wouldn't last five minutes if their dream really came true.

john67

03-01-2008, 02:45 PM

Phantom, i posted a link asking you to watch a documentary called, 'Judea declares war on Germany' before xmas. In it it goes through how zyklon-b works, as a fumigant, and how it was impossible to be used in the way suggested.

HTH

seanx

03-01-2008, 02:45 PM

The arrival' of 'hapax'.

I can only persume this is the arrival of a new 'battalion'.

But what is most fascinating- and I think most people will have
noticed this- is Phantom's refusal - or inability so far to answer the
points made in Dogsmilk's and Cheeb's seminal posts.

As I said, it's difficult to bullshit people who know what they're talking
about.

phantom

03-01-2008, 06:22 PM

Hi dogsmilk and thanks for your input. Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I have been a little busy of lately.

If you're genuinely curious take the time to properly study the published literature rather than a bunch of stuff people stuck up on the net.

Good advise dogsmilk? I too advise people to purchase as many holocaust books as possible, some of which you already mentioned, then go to http://vho.org/dl/ENG.html (http://vho.org/dl/ENG.html) and download for FREE more than 20 + well researched revisionist books then come to your own conclusions as to who you believe.

I've been reading into this subject for the last few months and feel I've barely scratched the surface - furthermore I've been repeatedly struck by the sheer volume of lying and misrepresentation coming from the denier camp.

I doubt that you have only been reading into this subject for the past few months but I will take your word for it.

I'm not here to get caught in a meaningless debate with denier fundamentalists, so I'd just recommend people do their own research, make their own minds and follow the chain of distortions for themselves.

I couldn't agree more dogsmilk, that’s all I ask of people. Don’t take for granted what we have learnt over the years, read from both sides of the argument then one will be able to make an informed decision as to what side is more likely telling the truth.

CODOH is being repeatedly referred to, yet it's well known CODOH is basically a denier back-scratching club that censors and bans the 'wrong' opinions.

A far better forum is RODOH - it's even run by a denier, so can't be accused of bias the other way. It just doesn't practice censorship or use absurd posting rules.
http://p102.ezboard.com/brodohforum
Many of the same anti-deniers post here
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
Which carries some interesting criotiques of standard denier fare
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...nks.html#debuv
Swifty posted an article from HHP which is a site that also carries much interesting material
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
I'd personally say Nizkor isn't as good but still worth a look
http://www.nizkor.org/

I prefer to read from the CODOH than the RODOH site that is supposedly run by a revisionist called Scott Smith (I admit I have never heard of him) and the forum is apparently hosted by Andrew Mathis who has been battered at the CODOH forum on several occasions. Again I advise the reader to visit all sites recommended by dogsmilk and read what Andrew Mathis, Dr. Richard Green, Dr. Nick Terry, Sergey Romanov and others have to say about revisionists and the events that surround the holocaust.

A couple of excellent texts are the case for Auschwitz by Robert Jan Van pelt and Holocaust Denial - Demographics, Testimonies and Ideologies by John C Zimmerman - they're both expensive (the latter horrifically so) but I managed to pick up cheap copies by looking around. But the historical works of the likes of Saul Friedlander, Christopher Browning and Raul Hilberg (among many others) are worth the study.

Yes, please do purchase The case for Auschwitz by Robert Jan Van Pelt (http://www.studentbookworld.com/books/index.php/CASE_FOR_AUSCHWITZ_by_Pelt,_Robert_Jan_Van_ISBN_02 53340160) and Holocaust Denial - Demographics, Testimonies and Ideologies by John C Zimmerman (http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Denial-Demographics-Testimonies-Ideologies/dp/0761818227) and other books by the likes of Saul Friedlander, Christopher Browning and Raul Hilberg. Then once you have read them, read through the books that I linked to at the VHO website and see how they debunk the holocaust historians work.

I don't intend to reply, but would just ask phantom if (s)he could specify what exactly is meant by
Quote:
Nope! Because the so called genocidal gas chamber at Auschwitz had no such heating devise connected to it as admitted by the French pharmacist and holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac.
as there were a number of gas chambers at Auschwitz. I find it particularly confusing as in his paper the machinery of mass murder at Auschwitz (co-authored with Van Pelt, in Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp - another good book worth a read) he quite clearly talks about pre-heated gas chambers, stating explicitly the problems associated with getting Zyklon B to work properly in the infamous 'little red house' and 'little white house' bunkers as winter set in motivated moving extermination to the crematoria. So a page reference to where Pressac says none of the gas chambers were pre-heated would be appreciated.

No, I cannot give you a page number, sorry. But I refer the reader to Answer to Jean-Claude Pressac on the Problem of the Gas chambers (http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Faurisson1.html) by Robert Faurisson and The Leuchter Report Vindicated: A Response to J.-C. Pressac's Critique (http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc426v12.html) by Paul Grubach where he claims Pressac admits and Leuchter confirms, the "gas chambers" had no internal heating devices to prevent condensation.

I have many other queries, but I can't be arsed.

No problem.

Interested readers can view Pressac's original major work here -
http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...ssac0011.shtml
Auschwitz certainly had one helluva lot of ovens. It would appear these Nazis felt the need to be cremating very large numbers of people, yet still had to resort to open air burning as the crems packed in under the strain. Funny, that.

Yes, a large number of ovens to burn the dead who were infected with typhus to try and prevent the spread. As I am sure you know typhus had hit that camp on many occasions, even as early as April 1941 as claimed in the book People in Auschwitz (http://books.google.com/books?id=vdtaBoUgXSMC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=auschwitz+typhus+epidemic+1941&source=web&ots=53Fr8NtG1m&sig=3Qevu4HTo2YIxpVyD0sChB1-744) by Hermann Langbein and the epidemic was even present when the camp was liberated by the Russians in 1945.

As for the so called little red and white houses or bunkers 1 and 2, I suggest people read Carlo Mattognos book The Bunkers of Auschwitz Black Propaganda versus History (http://vho.org/dl/ENG/tboa.pdf) and Some Technical and Chemical Considerations about the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Birkenau (http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html) by Germar Rudolf then make up their own minds as to what side of the argument one wants to believe.

Anyway, I did find the 'Zyklon B experiment' video very funny. I particularly liked the 'doctor', identifiable as such by the fact they had a stethoscope and white coat. The medical professionalism of the scrupulous medical examination consisting in the first instance of listening to a guy's heartbeat through his shirt was a joy to behold. I am fully confident they were a professional physician, just as I am confident men in white coats on soap powder adverts are 'scientists'. I also liked the way the shadow cast on the hut didn't move at all over the course of (allegedly) an hour. I do enjoy these 'slow sun days'. I do of course believe everything I watch on the internet as an accurate record of true events - just like I believe everything I see on TV.

I am still waiting for a reply from Tobin regarding that video. It is fair to say that if it was a real test with Zyklon B and the doctor/nurse was real you can understand why they were unidentifiable in the video because they would have easily been tracked down and arrested and probably jailed or fined for their participation.

I will get back to your other posts in due time.

phantom

03-01-2008, 06:30 PM

Hi john67

Phantom, i posted a link asking you to watch a documentary called, 'Judea declares war on Germany' before xmas. In it it goes through how zyklon-b works, as a fumigant, and how it was impossible to be used in the way suggested.

Yes, I am sure I replied to that post or maybe to someone else who referred to it recently. I have seen the video some while back and advise others to watch it.

Thanks john67.

Judea Declares War on Germany

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4138523842550891901&q=Judea+declares+war+on+Germany&total=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

phantom

03-01-2008, 07:14 PM

Cheeb, I will answer anything you care to throw at me but why don’t you answer anything I throw your way?

If you want to debate with me at least show me the same courtesy and meet me halfway by answering my questions and maybe you can stop distracting us from the original content of the thread.

First you slagged me off then you changed the direction of the main theme. I have given up on seanx because again, he cannot argue the original content on any of my threads and belittled himself as you did by name calling.

Like you, I too am not a specialist in the Aktion Reinhard camps or on Romanian jews and I cannot offer an explanation to your post other than to use a quote.

When I find more time, I will look into it further then try and give you a better answer. But for now, you said: “Orthodox historians are convinced that these 7,361 people were immediately killed in the gas chambers and their corpses burnt in the crematoria”

By saying these historians are convinced does not prove these people were gassed does it, so your post is pointless if all you have to offer for an answer to their disappearance is that orthodox historians believe or are convinced those people were gassed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

seanx

03-01-2008, 07:35 PM

But what is most fascinating- and I think most people will have
noticed this- is Phantom's refusal - or inability so far to answer the
points made in Dogsmilk's and Cheeb's seminal posts.

This post appeared - and suddenly the Phantom appears.

I've read what you posted- thanks for recommending so many
books! ( I put my life on whole - so that I can regress back to the
1930's) but you haven't actually answered any of his questions.

Nice try, though, my son.

But here is a small, little, tiny....little-mini- question.

And you don't have to reccommend any books for this:

If your nazis were quite willing to murder potentially millions of
Londoners with their bombs and at the end of the war, millions of
their OWN citizens, can you not understand why we find it difficult
to understand their reluctance not to do the same to the jews - their
number 1 enemy?

Yet, that is what you want us to believe?

As Columbo, would say, scratching his head, it's a real puzzler!

seanx

03-01-2008, 09:29 PM

Important memo to the Phantom:

'Hapax' needs more special training.

Or he should have a qualified poster with him at all times. Maybe
you could give him a provisional poster licence- until he knows what
he's doing.

This was his first quote on here.

There's one basic point that all the anti-Nazi haters like cheeb, seanx are forgetting.

Now hapax must have spent most of his day (and life) on his
beloved nazis site - because he seems to think that it is a bad
thing to be anti-Nazi?

Or he seems to find it hard to believe that there EXIST people who
are, shock, horror - anti-nazi?

Seemingly, we are that worst of creatures: Anti-Nazi haters.

Seriously, Hapax shouldn't be let out on his own

dogsmilk

04-01-2008, 12:19 AM

I doubt that you have only been reading into this subject for the past few months but I will take your word for it.

It's true. And one of the reasons I kick myself for getting caught up in forum arguments is that it eats into my already limited reading time. To be honest, I'd rather just kick back and 'enjoy' (if 'enjoy' is the right word with such material) researching the topic, but I tend to allow myself to get embroiled in debates.

I prefer to read from the CODOH than the RODOH site that is supposedly run by a revisionist called Scott Smith (I admit I have never heard of him) and the forum is apparently hosted by Andrew Mathis who has been battered at the CODOH forum on several occasions. Again I advise the reader to visit all sites recommended by dogsmilk and read what Andrew Mathis, Dr. Richard Green, Dr. Nick Terry, Sergey Romanov and others have to say about revisionists and the events that surround the holocaust.

I would personally dispute that CODOH is a better read if you want 'balance'. Mathis and crew I'm sure would seriously dispute they have been "battered" - Ineed, they have repeatedly invited Hannover over to RODOH. The main bone of contention (and this is from deniers like Smith and Berg as well) is that CODOH deletes posts and bans people on the flimsiest pretences, aided by unclear Kafka-esque posting rules such as posts not being allowed to be "too lengthy". You can see much discussion of this on RODOH and the Holocaust Controversies blog. As it is, RODOH appears to actually have debate whereas CODOH appears to me as basically a denier forum pretending it's a debate forum. And personally I think Scott Smith is far more on the ball than Hargis who comes over as a complete twat.

No, I cannot give you a page number, sorry. But I refer the reader to Answer to Jean-Claude Pressac on the Problem of the Gas chambers by Robert Faurisson and The Leuchter Report Vindicated: A Response to J.-C. Pressac's Critique by Paul Grubach where he claims Pressac admits and Leuchter confirms, the "gas chambers" had no internal heating devices to prevent condensation.

Well I'm certainly not trawling through them myself to find out which passage they've distorted. If I had a fiver for each time a denier mis-quotes or distorts I'd have retired by now. I might read that Leuchter thing at some point though - I'm intrigued that anyone thinks they can salvage it.

Yes, a large number of ovens to burn the dead who were infected with typhus to try and prevent the spread. As I am sure you know typhus had hit that camp on many occasions, even as early as April 1941 as claimed in the book People in Auschwitz by Hermann Langbein and the epidemic was even present when the camp was liberated by the Russians in 1945.

As for the so called little red and white houses or bunkers 1 and 2, I suggest people read Carlo Mattognos book The Bunkers of Auschwitz Black Propaganda versus History and Some Technical and Chemical Considerations about the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Birkenau by Germar Rudolf then make up their own minds as to what side of the argument one wants to believe.

Typhus was not a problem unique to Auschwitz, yet other camps weren't apparently anticipating a mortality rate of truly apocalyptic proportions - this wasn't 28 days later; what kind of typhus epidemic (sticking to Prufer's lower estimate) was expected to be killing over two and half thousand people per day?
According to Zimmerman (p.63) the surviving death books for registered inmates list just over 2000 deaths recorded for typhus (for some reason there was a bigger epidemic of deaths from "heart attacks" and the like than from typhus). And lets not forget yet another crematorium was planned but never built.
So are you suggesting this was simply overkill?
Maybe Hoess had a weird oven fetish or was running a gigantic secret bakery?
If you want to play 'link wars', I"ll just chuck in Richard Green's affadavit responding to Rudolf from the Irving trial, though Irving decided not to use use it in the end anyway. Still, it's always nice to remind ourselves how Irving got shown to be a racist and a charlatan in a court of law in a case he brought himself to stop someone else's freedom of speech.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-da...dolf/affweb.pdf

I am still waiting for a reply from Tobin regarding that video. It is fair to say that if it was a real test with Zyklon B and the doctor/nurse was real you can understand why they were unidentifiable in the video because they would have easily been tracked down and arrested and probably jailed or fined for their participation.

I understand their desire for anonymity (and just to be clear I don't personally approve of legislating against Holocaust Denial), what I don't understand is the 'comedy doctor' routine and the fact this is apparently the day the sun stood still. It's also a bit strange that they appear to reverse a selection of previous denier arguments that try to argue Zyklon B was too dangerous to use in the manner described, but there you go.
Still, it's nowhere near as good as that one where they try to burn a telephone directory, have trouble getting it going and conclude from that it's impossible to burn bodies outside.

I will get back to your other posts in due time.

That's cool; I've only been on this posting spree as I've been off work anyway. Besides, at point of completion, this post has taken so long to write I simply cannot go on spending so much time writing epic posts when I simply think Holocaust denial is a load of wank.

Regarding the exciting film from that Toben idiot -

I watched the first 8 minutes or so and had to switch off as I was worried about the effect of such concentrated drivel on my brain.

In a strange, brief starter bit he's going on about doors in a David Cole stylee. Now I can guess where we was, but the entire section is rendered meaningless by the fact he doesn't explain where he his, the history of the structure - anything. It's just "Here's a door. Here's one with a handle that looks suspiciously very post 1940s". He's not making any kind of coherent argument, so there's no point in even bothering with this bit. Maybe he returns to it and strings a coherent argument together, I dunno.

For some reason he thinks the fact that there is a reference in some Jewish writing to six million dead is of great significance. Er...So is he suggesting the Holocaust was 'planned' as early as 1919? And someone wrote about it? Someone read the piece and thought "yeah - let's have six million dead" or what? What's he citing? Who wrote it? Why's it a big deal that somewhere in the Jewish literature there is a reference to six million dead? Why did Raul Hilberg think 5.1 million died? It just has no relevance and he doesn't even attempt to link it to any kind of narrative.

He goes on to say "It was international Zionism that wanted to destroy Hitler and not the other way round". Really? And your evidence for this is...

Benjamin Freedman - who he describes as "Jewish" without bothering to mention he was an anti-Zionist convert to Catholicism. It's always better if you can say someone saying someone you like is "Jewish" as it bestows a mysterious credibility to their statements. I dunno about this guy, but wiki (which I don't really like using as a source) says

The alleged Zionist plot against Germany

He claimed a conspiracy among powerful Zionists in the banking and financial elite to undermine Germany during World War I. He also claimed that a group of Zionists offered to embroil the United States in World War I on the Allied side in return for British support for a Jewish Homeland in Palestine. He claimed support was offered in the form of the Balfour Declaration issued by the British Government to the head of the British Jewish Community Lord Rothschild, but Freedman offered no evidence for the Jewish conspiracies. He claimed that he was there and "ought to know".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_H._Freedman

So exactly how did an essentially quite marginal at this time Jewish movement put such pressure on America? Who did what? Is there any corroborating evidence? Toben apparently doesn't care. Some bloke said it happened and that's all you need to know.

But then again, Toben is trying to convince us Hitler was simply battling evil Zionists; since Freedman didn't make his speech until 1961 and appears to be the only person ever to make such a claim, how did Hitler know about this egregious Zionist scheming? Time travel?

So what's the relevance anyway?

Next Toben thinks he'll have a go at distorting what Antony Sutton said. Sutton claimed a variety of financial interests directly funded Hitler's rise to power - he says nothing about Jews being behind it and accuses a lot of non-Jewish entities. But then, according to Toben, J P Morgan is suddenly Jewish. Bizarrely though, Toben doesn't cite Sutton's more explosive claims about Wall Street interests helping Hitler to power, he decides instead to go on about 'Jewish bankers' lending Hitler money to accrue exorbitant interest. Come again? Banks lending money you say? Charging interest you say? Want a big profit? Well I never - I've never heard the like!
Of course though we all know banking = Jews. Yup, those usurious rascals are the cause of all our ills, though we'd prefer to forget how this role was useful for the PTB back in the day and how when the times they were a-changin' others jumped on that banking bandwagon. In the UK for example, Quakers were big in banking, giving us Lloyds, Barclays and TSB. If I had time, I'd like to invent a Quaker banking conspiracy, chuck it on the net and see what happens.
Anyway, I digress.

He's off them saying the daft Madagascar plan was - news to me - an "agreement' reached with "Zionists". What crisp packet did he read that off the back of? Since when did "the Zionists" agree to the rather implausible, never-got-off-the-drawing board plan in that document written by Franz Rademacher wanting to commandeer the French Colony. I'm sure Zionists would be over the moon at being unceremoniously dumped in Africa with no chance of getting to Palestine which is kind of what Zionism is about.

This arrangement would prevent the possible establishment in Palestine by the Jews of a Vatican State of their own, and the opportunity for them to exploit for their own purposes the symbolic importance which Jerusalem has for the Christian and Mohammedan parts of the world. Moreover, the Jews will remain in German hands as a pledge for the future good behavior of the members of their race in America.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Madagascar.html

Toben doesn't evidence his claim of Zionist agreement - his kind of audience aren't concerned with such frippery. Mind you, here's here inexplicably leaped forward to 1940 which is when this plan was concocted, but we've already got Hitler scooting round in his TARDIS, so what the hell.

Toben next opts to reduce the complex history of disagreement between various Jewish factions with the "Judea declares war on Germany stuff" (e.g. B'nai Brith opposed the boycott, as did many German/German descended Jews ) to a bullshit factoid. The boycott was not because of any 'Zionist demands', it was because a lot of Jews were rather concerned a raging anti-semite and his gang of thugs, already with a long history of being unpleasant to Jews had got in power. It didn't happen overnight and included a lot of non-Jews - mainly left-wingers. "Judea" did not "declare war" on Germany in a literal sense - I realise that there are those who regard "the Jews" as a borg like hive mind all thinking and acting as one but newsflash comin' - Jews are individuals with unique thoughts and feelings just like Aryans! Fancy that! Anyway, if this is an actual war, where are the tanks then?
Toben then plummets new depths of ignorance by saying the Jews were then put in camps 'because they were at war'. Yet the Jews weren't put in camps (just for being Jews) for years after this. At this stage the process was an incremental expulsion of Jews from various professions, educational establishments etc, Hitler's own botycott etc. He seems to be trying to suggest the Zionists just 'declared war' on an unsuspecting Hitler basically out of the blue. Has this guy not looked at Mein Kamf or what?
For Christ's sake, if Hitler was just concerned about Zionists, what were the Nuremburg Laws about?

I switched off at this point. I simply cannot believe this guy presents this codswallop as some kind of twentieth century history with a straight face.
So so far we've got some unidentified literature which mentions 6 million dead, some guy says he was at some meeting but no-one will know about it until 1961, banks lend money, an abortive 1940 suggestion to dump Jews in Africa and Jews boycotting anti-semites. And this proves Hitler was on some noble crusade against evil Zionists? Ooooooo-kaaaaaaaay.

I realise I've not watched much, but if the tripe I've seen so far is the culmination of 30 years research, I'd suggest a career change. I hear McDonalds usually has vacancies.

But this is what bugs me - in the so-called 'conspiracy theory' scene there is a very healthy attitude towards questioning received wisdom, challenging dogmas and thinking critically about the way the world really works. Yet just as people display a healthy scepticism towards the MSM, stick a crappy Nazi video on google video, say it's 'down the rabbit hole', 'the red pill' or whatever and suddenly people are chucking their critical faculties out the window, staring slacked jawed at the screen believing whut they saw oan thuh tee-vee. Whereas the actual motivations of every tier of the PTB are (rightfully) up for scrutiny, no-one could ever have an political ulterior motive for making Hitler look like a lovely chap could they?
Even more peversely, much of the narratives surrounding this stuff present themselves as pro-freedom, pro-free speech, pro-individualism. Yet we all know Nazis burned books, eliminated even the pretense of democracy we have now, eliminated labour rights, persecuted a range of 'undesirable' groups, eliminated free speech. At the core of Nazism was Gleichshaltung - the subordination of the individual to the requirements of the state. The individual as a cog in the machine. Some of you admire this????!!!! You want it back????!!!! (even though, of course, a good argument can be made it is coming back. In fact, you Hitler fans should be chuffed to fuck about the current erosion of civil liberties. You should be marching about doing the John Cleese funny walk with a big grin on your faces to the queue for ID cards. Eagerly waiting to hear that comedy German accent say "Your papers are...not in order...").

Of course, much as I think deniers have the right to free speech, there's a certain irony about a neo-Nazi like Ernst Zundel carping on about having his free speech curtailed. You'd think he'd like it - surely Nazis are against free speech?
I'm eternally bemused as to how the bozo circus at Stormfront similarly go round wanting totalitarianism, yet plaintively bleating about how tragically misunderstood and unjustly persecuted crackpot racist homophobic scumfucks are in an uncaring world.
I suppose it's no fun unless you're doing the persecuting. Give Ernst Zundel a nice black uniform and a rubber truncheon and who knows what would happen.

I just wanted to pick up on the point Sean X was making with a different example.

...on 2nd May (1941), a key meeting took place at which the economic management of the war against the Soviet Union was discussed further. The minutes of that meeting are quoted here...

1/The war can only be continued if Russia supplies the food for the entire German armed forces in the third year of the war.
2/Millions of people will undoubtedly starve if the food supplies necessary to meet our needs are extracted from the country.

Four days after this meeting, on 6 May, Backe reported back to Goebbels once again: 'Backe outlined the food supply situation. As he reported it to me a few days ago. With a few additional statistics that give ground for optimism. If only this years harvest is a good one. And then we'll do very nicely for ourselves in the East
On 23 May the Economic Policy Unit for the East - an institution created specifically for the war against the Soviet Union, and dominated by Goring and the Four Year Plan Authority - approved the 'economic policy guidelines for the organisation of the economy in the East, workgroup "agriculture". These had been drafted by the experts in the Reich Ministry of food under Backe in collaboration with the government ministries represented in the Four Year Plan Authority and the leadership of the Wermacht. These guidelines spell out how the German Reich planned to 'do nicely for itself' in the occupied Soviet Union

'Many tens of millions of people in these territories (i.e. the forest belt and the northern industrial towns will be surplus to need, and will either die or have to emigrate to Siberia. Any attempts to save the population there from starvation by drawing on surpluses from the black earth country (i.e. the Ukraine) would be at the expense of maintaining food supplies to Europe. Such attempts would cripple Germany's ability to keep going in the war, and they would cripple Germany's - and Europe's - capacity to survive a blockade. This needs to be made absolutely clear.'

(this, btw, is on the back of Himmler saying "The purpose of the Russian campaign (is) to decimate the Slavic population by 30 million")

- Architects of Annihilation by Gotz Aly and Susanne Heim p.236-237

Which I picked pretty much at random. It's well understood the Nazis thought much of the population of Russia should quite literally fuck off and die. Not to mention the turfing out of God knows how many Poles from their homes (so Germans could move in), often just dumping them at some Godforsaken destination. And even before we get to the Holocaust, we have the ghettos...
"Human rights" was not in the Nazi dictionary.
However, Holocaust denial often tries to move backwards from 'no gas chambers' with a final destination of 'ain't that Hitler great!', so is confronted with a progressive project of deleting atrocity after atrocity.

The obvious counter is that we bombed them too. It's perhaps doubtful we'd have drafted basically children and grandads in a last ditch attempt to save a doomed London, but maybe. The Soviets decimated their own population too. Not too mention the mass raping of German women that went down during payback time.
Yet that in no way does anything to make it better that the Nazis quite demonstrably had no qualms whatsoever about the brutality of their own actions.

white horse

04-01-2008, 01:01 AM

For instance, we are told that during the war, the Nazis would pour Zyklon B pellets through holes in the roof of the genocidal gas chambers in Auschwitz and the fumes would then spread throughout the chamber and kill those locked in the room.

Are there any chemists here who know how Zyklon B works?

Does Zyklon B need to reach a certain temperature before it releases the cyanide or can the cyanide be released when the pellets are cold?

Apparently it was developed as a pesticide, based on hydrocyanic acid; it reacts to oxygen and releases hydrogen cyanide on contact to the air, temperature is irrelevant, it is a chemical reaction.

cheeb

04-01-2008, 01:35 AM

The use of Zyclon "B"
Could be even more brutal because of it,s hallucigenic effects:

What Dr. Sartori wrote about those gases when he dicussed halogenated esters of organic acids is worth of noting: "Because of its [methyl chloroformate] strongly irritant properties, it has been used in insecticidal preparations: 'Zyklon A," which is a mixture of 90% of methyl cyanoformate and 10% of methyl chloroformate, and 'Zyklon B,' a mixture of liquid hydrocyanic acid and irritant chlorinated and brominated compounds." (Sartori, War Gases. p. 104)

The source of Dr. Sartori was German "Frickhinger, Gase in der Schädlingsbekämpfung, Berlin 1933, 27.

It is possible that those irritant compounds were halogenated esters. If so, the use of Zyklon B against human beings would have added a horrible torture in the final agony of the victims. Some halogenated esters are insupportabale in concentrations as small as 50 mg in a cubic meter of air. Accounts concerning the dead of the victims of chambers support my suspect that the gas had much stronger irritant efect than pure hydrocyanic acid. The vapor pressure of hydrocyanic acid is weak. It takes relatively long time to form a lethal concentration. That fact made hydrocyanic acid unsuitable as war gas in the World War I. When used in the gas chabers with irritant compounds those irritant agencies presumably evaporate first and cause a horrible pain to the victims before the HCN killed them.

I haven't been able to find the Frickhingers book. I suppose that the details of those irritant compounds can be found there.

If my hypothesis is correct the use of Zyklon B in Holocaust was even more brutal crime than we have understood. Please tell me that I'm wrong.

Industrialised murder!!

at least according to the courts and the proof, is that that they knew what their product was intended for. According to remember.com,

Two German firms, Tesch/Stabenow and Degesch, produced Zyklon B gas after they acquired the patent from Farben. Tesch supplied two tons a month, and Degesch three quarters of a ton. The firms that produced the gas already had extensive experience in fumigation. "In short, this industry used very powerful gases to exterminate rodents and insects in enclosed spaces; that it should now have become involved in an operation to kill off Jews by the hundreds of thousands is not mere accident."(Hilberg, Commandant, 567) After the war the directors of the firms insisted that they had sold their products for fumigation purposes and did not know they were being used on humans. But the prosecutors found letters from Tesch not only offering to supply the gas crystals but also advising how to use the ventilating and heating equipment. Hoess testified that the Tesch directors could not help but know of the use for their product because they sold him enough to annihilate two million people. Two Tesch partners were sentenced to death in 1946 and hanged. The director of Degesch received five years in prison. (Feig)

The respiratory functions of insects,
And people are completeley different,
People breathe through lungs,
Insects do not breathe they have spiracles in their skin!!

Temperature is always important in a chemicle reaction though,
It acts as a catylist!!!

sensimillia

04-01-2008, 01:38 AM

december is at it again, eh?:)

cheeb

04-01-2008, 01:45 AM

december is at it again, eh?:)

No Mention of anything Soviet Sentric Yet,
But time will tell!!!

;)

sensimillia

04-01-2008, 01:51 AM

No Mention of anything Soviet Sentric Yet,
But time will tell!!!

;)

it sure will...;)

sean

04-01-2008, 02:04 AM

Just a reminder to keep on topic and stop with the personal insults.

If you havent got anything to add to the discussion, then take a backseat!

We don't always agree with eachother, but we can at least be civil.

cheeb

04-01-2008, 02:15 AM

Youre the boss Sean,
It would be a shame to see one of the best rebbuttals,
Of Holocaust Denial,
By Dogsmilk,
End up in the bin room,
Because of a Flipant December Remark!!!

:)

hapax

04-01-2008, 03:40 AM

seanx: 'Hapax' needs more special training.

Happen to agree with you there.

seanx: Or he seems to find it hard to believe that there EXIST people who are, shock, horror - anti-nazi? Seemingly, we are that worst of creatures: Anti-Nazi haters.

No actually I find that easy to believe, given the hate spewed out by the media, by Hollywood, by Communists and by the Left for the past 60 years. And "worst of creatures"? - don't remember saying that - but if you insist, fine. Ignoring and belittling the on-going crimes and mass-murders of Communism and Capitalism, while scapegoating the German National Socialists, sure qualifies many people.

Seriously, Hapax shouldn't be let out on his own

Unfortunately for you, they did let me out (and now it's too late...evil chuckle...).

But rather than bothering with personal attacks, you might consider dealing with the actual issues raised in this thread - that of the complete unsuitability of Zyklon B for mass-murder. The Nazis were many things - but completely stupid is not one of them. A few random points which some people might consider addressing:

1. The Soviets, the Chinese Communists, the Khmer Rouge and other brands of Communist managed to commit tens of millions of murders mainly by shooting and by deliberate starvation. Why was this not good enough for the Nazis? Why would they choose to use insecticides when a bullet is much quicker, cheaper and more certain?

2. Why would the Nazis bother to use a slow-release pellet form (Zyklon B) of hydrogen cyanide (HCN) when cheaper and quicker gas alternatives were available? These alternatives included:

a. generating the HCN on the spot (as they did in US execution gas chambers), so bypassing the problem of slow-release HCN from the Zyklon B granules (of which about 20kgs would have been needed for each mass gassing);
b. using more toxic carbon monoxide (=CO) freely available as a byproduct of the processes at IG Farben chemical factory at Monowitz 30km from Auschwitz;
c. using "producer gas" (=wood gas, up to 35%CO), generators of which were fitted on hundreds of thousands of vehicles all over Germany (because of the wartime oil blockade). All Nazi Party officials had these producer gas generators installed in their vehicles - along with dire warnings about their toxicity - but they never thought of using this easy option;
d. using regular city gas - just pipe it into the gas chamber;
e. simply stuffing the victims into a sealed room to suffocate (no need for gas-masks, protective equipment, ventilation or decontamination, thereby saving time and money).

Hydrogen cyanide gas from Zyklon B (unlike carbon monoxide) is absorbed into water, into condensation, into bodily fluids, into lung membranes, and also into any hair or clothing ie. into that worn by the units clearing out the gas-chambers and dragging the HCN-saturated corpses off to the crematoria. Both the workers and the corpses would have continued to give off HCN, presenting a health-hazard to anyone nearby including to the SS staff, morgue attendants, crematorium workers, doctors, etc. (especially since normal gas-masks for "mustard gas" don't work against HCN and HCN is also absorbed through the skin and through sweat, requiring protective gloves and clothing for everyone involved). So any of the listed methods would be quicker, safer, cheaper and more efficient (I mean, c'mon! It's the Germans we are talking about... they even had IBM computers and the world's first microwave at Auschwitz).

4. But since HCN is also explosive, it would be impossible to cremate any bodies contaminated with HCN, barring a lengthy washing process for each corpse in a ventilated space - which process is absent from the Holohoax reports. Also each hosing-down of the "gas-chamber" would further increase the humidity and further saturate the walls, requiring even more Zyklon B for the next gassing. So why not just shoot or gas with CO and avoid the whole problem?

5. Why are there high concentrations of HCN residues (visible to this day as blue staining) throughout the plasterwork and brickwork (even through to the outside) of the small delousing chambers at Auschwitz, while such staining is absent from the supposed homicidal "gas chambers"?

6. Why are the supposed homicidal "gas-chambers" at Auschwitz not hermetically sealed (given the supposed use of a toxic gas)? Why does the door (supposedly original) of the gas-chamber shown to Auschwitz tourists have a keyhole? Why does the door open inwards? - how could anyone enter the "gas-chamber" through such a door with dead bodies piled on the other side?

7. The Nuremberg Trials contain accusations that the Nazis:

-steamed people to death;
-electrocuted people on giant metal plates which then reduced the victims to ashes;
-used an A-bomb to nuke victims at Auschwitz;
-forced people to climb trees and then cut the trees down to kill them;
-killed 840,000 Soviet prisoners using a pedal-driven skull-bashing machine;
-used Zyklon B insecticide pellets to commit mass murder.

After the War these accusations were quickly forgotten - with one major exception. Given the chemical and toxicological problems, -and given that Auschwitz and the other "death camps" were all in Soviet hands (now there's a coincidence....) - why should anyone believe the Zyklon B fabrication when all the others were obvious KGB hoaxes?

The Rudolf Report (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/trr.pdf)
The Leuchter Report (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/tlr.pdf)
Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: Crematorium I and the Alleged Homicidal Gassings (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/aci.pdf)
Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The First Gassing. Rumor and Reality (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/atfg.pdf)

leespeed

04-01-2008, 04:52 AM

maybe its all they had left ? just a thought

dogsmilk

05-01-2008, 12:42 AM

Happen to agree with you there.

No actually I find that easy to believe, given the hate spewed out by the media, by Hollywood, by Communists and by the Left for the past 60 years. And "worst of creatures"? - don't remember saying that - but if you insist, fine. Ignoring and belittling the on-going crimes and mass-murders of Communism and Capitalism, while scapegoating the German National Socialists, sure qualifies many people.

Unfortunately for you, they did let me out (and now it's too late...evil chuckle...).

But rather than bothering with personal attacks, you might consider dealing with the actual issues raised in this thread - that of the complete unsuitability of Zyklon B for mass-murder. The Nazis were many things - but completely stupid is not one of them. A few random points which some people might consider addressing:

1. The Soviets, the Chinese Communists, the Khmer Rouge and other brands of Communist managed to commit tens of millions of murders mainly by shooting and by deliberate starvation. Why was this not good enough for the Nazis? Why would they choose to use insecticides when a bullet is much quicker, cheaper and more certain?

2. Why would the Nazis bother to use a slow-release pellet form (Zyklon B) of hydrogen cyanide (HCN) when cheaper and quicker gas alternatives were available? These alternatives included:

a. generating the HCN on the spot (as they did in US execution gas chambers), so bypassing the problem of slow-release HCN from the Zyklon B granules (of which about 20kgs would have been needed for each mass gassing);
b. using more toxic carbon monoxide (=CO) freely available as a byproduct of the processes at IG Farben chemical factory at Monowitz 30km from Auschwitz;
c. using "producer gas" (=wood gas, up to 35%CO), generators of which were fitted on hundreds of thousands of vehicles all over Germany (because of the wartime oil blockade). All Nazi Party officials had these producer gas generators installed in their vehicles - along with dire warnings about their toxicity - but they never thought of using this easy option;
d. using regular city gas - just pipe it into the gas chamber;
e. simply stuffing the victims into a sealed room to suffocate (no need for gas-masks, protective equipment, ventilation or decontamination, thereby saving time and money).

Hydrogen cyanide gas from Zyklon B (unlike carbon monoxide) is absorbed into water, into condensation, into bodily fluids, into lung membranes, and also into any hair or clothing ie. into that worn by the units clearing out the gas-chambers and dragging the HCN-saturated corpses off to the crematoria. Both the workers and the corpses would have continued to give off HCN, presenting a health-hazard to anyone nearby including to the SS staff, morgue attendants, crematorium workers, doctors, etc. (especially since normal gas-masks for "mustard gas" don't work against HCN and HCN is also absorbed through the skin and through sweat, requiring protective gloves and clothing for everyone involved). So any of the listed methods would be quicker, safer, cheaper and more efficient (I mean, c'mon! It's the Germans we are talking about... they even had IBM computers and the world's first microwave at Auschwitz).

4. But since HCN is also explosive, it would be impossible to cremate any bodies contaminated with HCN, barring a lengthy washing process for each corpse in a ventilated space - which process is absent from the Holohoax reports. Also each hosing-down of the "gas-chamber" would further increase the humidity and further saturate the walls, requiring even more Zyklon B for the next gassing. So why not just shoot or gas with CO and avoid the whole problem?

5. Why are there high concentrations of HCN residues (visible to this day as blue staining) throughout the plasterwork and brickwork (even through to the outside) of the small delousing chambers at Auschwitz, while such staining is absent from the supposed homicidal "gas chambers"?

6. Why are the supposed homicidal "gas-chambers" at Auschwitz not hermetically sealed (given the supposed use of a toxic gas)? Why does the door (supposedly original) of the gas-chamber shown to Auschwitz tourists have a keyhole? Why does the door open inwards? - how could anyone enter the "gas-chamber" through such a door with dead bodies piled on the other side?

7. The Nuremberg Trials contain accusations that the Nazis:

-steamed people to death;
-electrocuted people on giant metal plates which then reduced the victims to ashes;
-used an A-bomb to nuke victims at Auschwitz;
-forced people to climb trees and then cut the trees down to kill them;
-killed 840,000 Soviet prisoners using a pedal-driven skull-bashing machine;
-used Zyklon B insecticide pellets to commit mass murder.

After the War these accusations were quickly forgotten - with one major exception. Given the chemical and toxicological problems, -and given that Auschwitz and the other "death camps" were all in Soviet hands (now there's a coincidence....) - why should anyone believe the Zyklon B fabrication when all the others were obvious KGB hoaxes?

The Rudolf Report (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/trr.pdf)
The Leuchter Report (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/tlr.pdf)
Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: Crematorium I and the Alleged Homicidal Gassings (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/aci.pdf)
Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The First Gassing. Rumor and Reality (http://www.vho.org/dl/ENG/atfg.pdf)

The Nazis did kill a lot of Jews (and others through) shooting - this is exactly what the four einsatzgruppen squads were engaged in. However, it's not massively efficient and besides was psychologically detrimental to perpetrators.
On the other hand, why didn't Pol Pot build gas chambers? Surely that would have been more efficient? Since I think Pol Pot should have used gas chambers, I shall now decide I believe the Cambodian genocide to be a fraud.
Anyway, you lot are supposed to pretend no Jews were being systematically killed at all, so it doesn't do you any good to start reminding us over a million Jews were killed in this way.

Zyklon B was there already and Karl Fritzsch had a brainwave.
It may be your opinion that they should have been running special gas mains all over the place or waiting for people to suffocate or whatever but I fail to see how this is an argument. It's just you basically saying "Well I wouldn't have done it like that! I'd have done a much better job! So they can't have done it that way!" This (and the argument above really) is what I'd call the 'man in the pub fallacy'. It can't really be answered because you've decided things should have been done the way you think was best from the comfort of your armchair and won't be happy unless they were.
Are you an expert on organising genocide, then? Who knows, if your Nazi dream comes true they might find you a job.

On one hand, I daresay the Nazis had scant health and safety concerns for the Jews doing the corpse-related dirty work. On the other you may possibly be exaggerating in your suggestion those touching the dead would all be dropping like flies.

According to July 1993 issue of _American Family
Physician_, cyanide poisoning through the skin is very rare:

" Cyanide is absorbed through the lungs, gastrointestinal
tract, and skin. Symptoms can occur within seconds of HCN
[cyanide gas] inhalation; ....Cyanide is readily absorbed
through the mucous membranes and the eyes. Clinical cases of
cyanide poisoning after dermal exposure are rare and most
often have involved burns with molten cyanide salts or
immersion in cyanide solutions."

Cyanide poisoning through the skin is therefore not a
significant mode of poisoning unless you have very high
concentrations over a very long period of time.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.001

I don't really understand this point about about people 'giving off' HCN. How d'you work that out?

Furthermore, and leading into explosions (the first point is about ventilation - you know the ventilation systems that helped vent the gas - but it seems pertinent)

...Once the gas is released into the atmosphere, its concentration drops and it is no longer dangerous.Also, HCN dissipates quickly. The execution gas chambers in US prisons are also ventilated directly into the atmosphere...

Another claim is refuted merely by reference to the Merck Index. In order to be explosive HCN requires a concentration of 6% (60,000 ppm). 75 There is simply no reason to add enough Zyklon B to allow such a concentration to build up.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#iii

I'm sorry but i find the claim the corpses would somehow become themselves explosive (if an explosive quantity is not needed in the first place) rather odd and would seek further clarification.

I just picked that link because it makes a frequently overlooked point;

If the Nazis and their accomplices were smart enough to handle the hazards of Zyklon B for delousing purposes, it is reasonable to suppose that they were smart enough to handle those hazards when committing murder.

And since they needed more to kill insects, it seems strange that it becomes the most dangerous thing in the world ever (unless you're pretending to spend an hour in a little concrete room down under of course) as soon as it's not killing lice. How did they manage to do all this delousing when it was too dangerous to use smaller quantities to kill people?

The same article talks about prussian blue too, which is handy. You may also wish to peruse the lengthy and detailed affadavit posted earlier.

I am curious as to why you act confused about a building we all know hasn't got the original door on it. A better question if you want to talk doors would be what were showers and a gas tight door doing in a 'morgue' (see my 2nd post above).

You mention "obvious KGB hoaxes". Considering many reports came from distinctly non-Soviet sources, I fail to see any obviousness. Anyway, I didn't think it was called the KGB until the 1950s.
What was said at Nuremburg has exactly fuck all to do with what history recoded except insofar as Nuremburg is one source.
In a general sense, many historians have been fiercely critical of Nuremburg on various levels.
If claims were made and these are now regarded as false it is because there didn't appear to be any evidence for them. Though I'd guess it's likely some isolated incidents have just never been subsequently studied and have been forgotten about.
It's a very strange argument that's being made here. It's basically trying to argue that because historians reject (or don't consider amply evidenced) some claims made at Nuremburg, they should reject all claims made at Nuremburg. Yet the fact that some claims are now rejected shows that historians have done their job by ditching the chaff.
Incidentally, where did you get the figure of 840,000 from? I'm not disputing as such, it's just I happen to have read that bit of trial transcript when I heard about that claim in another forum and I do not recall seeing any figure like that.
If you think it's "convenient" the death camps were in the East I shall ask you o wise one - where do you think was the most sensible place to put them? Remember; you can get your genocide planning experience in for when you get your beloved Fuhrer back.

Finally:

No actually I find that easy to believe, given the hate spewed out by the media, by Hollywood, by Communists and by the Left for the past 60 years. And "worst of creatures"? - don't remember saying that - but if you insist, fine. Ignoring and belittling the on-going crimes and mass-murders of Communism and Capitalism, while scapegoating the German National Socialists, sure qualifies many people.

When Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were allies, the state controlled propaganda in both countries steered clear of slagging each other off. Similarly, the Allies tried to play nice back in the day. Obvious stuff really.
However, I remember...oooh...what was it now? Ah yes - the cold war. Believe it or not, I remember growing up in a world where the Soviets had become the Evil Empire bent on enslaving the world and only Rambo could save us. You were probably too busy polishing your jackboots or something to notice.
If you want to bemoan the crimes of capitalism, go right ahead; I'll join in.
If you want to bemoan the crimes of communism I'll join in there too - with the caveat I have a certain romantic affinity for a host of beardy-weirdies from back in the days when the word "communism" was interchangeable with the word "anarchism". I realise it may confuse people who have been brainwashed to believe that communism=Marx who invented it because he was a Jew, but in the real world radical ideology was clearly a lot more complex.
But I'm confused as to why you think National Socialism was "scapegoated". Let's even forget the Holocaust for a moment; what's desirable about Nazism? I realise a book burning may be laugh at the time, but not when you want something to read later. Is it just the primitive primate instinct to have a powerful alpha male bossing you around? The comfort of knowing all you have to do is swallow the propaganda and do as you're told? The fun of persecuting people? Or is it more this primate territorial instinct that makes you want to feel the geographical landmass you were born on is somehow better than others and that people with different skin pigmentation or whatever are somehow inferior?

I don't get it.

paganus

05-01-2008, 08:28 AM

well,being jewish has nothing to do with skin colour,or nationality.its a belief system.its what it represents that is offensive.the idea of a 'chosen people' superiour in other words.and THAT is the belief system of a PERSECUTOR.

dogsmilk

05-01-2008, 09:49 AM

Quite what relevance the above comment has to the discussion at hand I'm not sure.

Nazis didn't care about Judaism as a "belief system", it was a racial thing. To the Nazis, a Jew that converted to Christianity was still a Jew. If your mum was a non-practicing Jew, your dad a Christian and you were an atheist, the Nazis still classed you as a Jew. A bit like these morons you get today who try to prove Jews run everything by finding any vague hint of Jewishness in as many important people as they can (incredibly, some people appear to believe all the Jews are 'in it' together, they periodically meet up to plan world domination. Or perhaps getting an occasional newsletter Evil Jewish World Domination Quarterly or something.)
The notion of a 'chosen people' isn't particularly unique in the sense that monotheists in general frequently think God is on their side. Some Christians think all non-believers will burn in hell - only a zero watt bulb would go on to declare all Christians are therefore persecutory nutjobs.
I realise some people enjoy quote-mining the Talmud to find grim-sounding passages. I don't know the Talmud. I wouldn't care to comment without serious study. I don't know the Koran either, but I don't take it seriously when people quote-mine the Koran to find grim sounding passages and thus declare that's what 'the Muslims' think.
Indeed, if Judaism is simply a belief system, it is preposterous to assume all Jews interpret it in the same way. That's like saying all Christians think the same because they all read the Bible.
All three of the major monotheisms regard the Old Testament as a Holy Book, and that contains some well hectic stuff.
I haven't met many Jews myself, but those I have known didn't appear to think they were particularly 'chosen' in practice and certainly weren't in any way "persecutory". But then - unlike Nazis - I judge people as unique individuals and would take the time to talk to individual Jews and understand them.

However, if you are repulsed by the idea of a persecutory chosen people, i can only assume you despise Nazis whose ideologists wrote literally reams of material on the inherent superiority of us Aryans (I suspect you're Aryan yourself. I know I am.) and subsequently actively persecuted or killed those who did not conform to their chosen ideal, including their own who happened to be disabled, mentally ill, gay or have 'impure thoughts' politically. Not to mention hating Jews, gypsies, Black people etc for being 'inferior'.

A key aspect of racist thinking is that it lumps people together into a big group and declares they're 'all the same'. This is so obviously bollocks, even racists struggle to keep it up - kind of like when you get stuff like "I don't like 'the Blacks', but that Frank Bruno is alright, and that guy down the road is ok.' You can even see this dynamic alluded to in Himmler's Posnan speech I posted earlier. This grouping invariably involves thinking yourgroup is best and trying hard to prove it however you can. It's absolutely ridiculous, but people really do seem to believe this stuff, I kid you not.

I just have to say though, Paganus; I do quite like your current choice of avatar - very sharp imagery. Nice find.

http://lh5.google.com/dtorkelson/RyjkKtiKfLI/AAAAAAAAAOo/gMC6xCct-UM/emo%20hitler.jpg

I think there is something strangely fitting in portraying Hitler as a tragic, angst-ridden youth struggling to come to terms with adult emotions.

"Nobody understands me! Everybody hates me! They don't like my art! They just don't get it about the Jews! They think my moustache looks gay! And do I really like Eva? She might want to kiss me...how will I know if she thinks I'm any good? Will I know where to put it when the time comes? Blondi is my only friend! It's all just so unfair!"

Hitler then retires to his bunker, paints it black (daubing the excess on his fingernails) and puts on a My Chemical Romance album. Our budding painter then pulls out a gentleman's art pamphlet to peruse, somewhat dismayed the pages of his treasured Razzle are all stuck together by a multitude of previous Jackson Pollock style works in gooey wads of Fuhrer paste. Feeling more relaxed, he settles down for a long night alone playing Blitzkrieg 2 - this time he will get past Stalingrad!

(no offense to genuine EMO fans. Stereotypes invoked do not necessarily imply actual views)
__________________

paganus

05-01-2008, 09:53 AM

paganus

05-01-2008, 09:58 AM

and let us not forget the alliance with Imperial Japan,plus the inclucion of black folk in th SS.hardly the actions of a racist!

dogsmilk

05-01-2008, 10:07 AM

I just thought of a nice Robert Anton Wilson passage that's kinda relevant.

As Korzybski the semanticist said, all we can ever find in space-time consists of Jew-1, Jew-2, Jew-3 etc. to Jew-n. (For the nonmathematical, that means a list comprising Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Ruth, Jesus, Woody Allen, Richard Bandler, Felix Mendelsohn, Sigmund Freud, Paulette Goddard, Betty Grable, Noam Chomsky, Bernard Baruch, Paul Newman, the Virgin Mary, Albert Einstein, Lillian Hellman, Baron Rothschild, Ayn Rand, Max Epstein, Emma Goldman, Saul Bellow, etc. etc. etc. to the final enumeration of all Jews alive or dead.) Each of these, on inspection, will have different fingerprints, different brains, different neuro-immunological systems, different eyes, ears, noses etc. different life histories, different conditioning and learning etc. and different personalities, hobbies, passions etc... and none will serve as a norm or Ideal Form for all the others.

To say it otherwise, world Jewish population stood at about 10 million when Hitler formed his generalizations. He could not possibly have known more than at maximum about 500 of them well enough to generalize about them; considering his early prejudices, he probably knew a lot less than that. But taking 500 as a high estimate, we find he generalized about 10 million individual persons on the basis of knowledge limited to around 1/20,000 or 0.00005 % of them.

It seems, then, that Naziism could not have existed, if Hitler knew the difference between norms or averages (internal estimates, subject to error due to incomplete research or personal prejudice) and the phalanx of discrete nonnormal events and things (including persons) that we find in the sensory space-time continuum outside.

http://www.rawilson.com/csicon.shtml

dogsmilk

05-01-2008, 10:24 AM

Ernst Rohm was well known to be gay - does this 'prove' the Nazis didn't therefore persecute Homosexuals?

Furthermore, some part-Jewish mischlings and 'sub-human' Slavs made it into the German army. The logic of saying this kind of stuff 'proves' Hitler was some kind of anti-racist is as dumb as saying that Black people in the American army 'proves' America wasn't racist towards Black people.

I simply don't understand what conceivable relevance the alliance with Japan has.

Can I just get this straight...are you actually trying to suggest Hitler did not persecute Jews... Seriously? He just passed all them laws stripping Jews of citizenship and defining them racially for a bet or something? The sheer volume of evidence of Nazi animosity towards Jews is so overwhelming I'm kind of thinking you're just having a laugh.

Btw, I don't think EMO kids consciously tried to emulate Hitler's style. Just an assumption of mine! If it is humourous, I see no reason why you should object to my own humourous take on it.

dogsmilk

05-01-2008, 10:56 AM

paganus

05-01-2008, 07:03 PM

Incidentally, what exactly is a "reformed" Jew?
It goes without saying no evidence Morell or this "Heindreich" chap were Jewish has been presented. Even David Irving describes Morell as "Second son of a primary school teacher of Huguenot blood" and his mum as from a "wealthy Hessian farming family".a reformed jew is one who no longer subscribes to the inferiority of 'goys'.the japanese alliance is important because it shows willingness to stand with non-whites AGAINST whites.the S.A were pretty racist,and look what happened to them..i wasnt offended by your comments on my avater,i found them witty!

dogsmilk

06-01-2008, 11:37 AM

a reformed jew is one who no longer subscribes to the inferiority of 'goys'.the japanese alliance is important because it shows willingness to stand with non-whites AGAINST whites.the S.A were pretty racist,and look what happened to them..i wasnt offended by your comments on my avater,i found them witty!

Really?
So are you suggesting a "reformed" Jew is simply one who has abandoned Judaism? Or something else? I have personally met Jews who didn't think non-Jews were inferior to them but who nevertheless regarded themselves very much as Jews. Were they "reformed"?

You have not provided any evidence Morell (who I assume you are referring to) and Heindreich were Jews. I don't know what Heindreich you're referring to, so an explanation there would be handy.

IIRC, Nazi racial ideology didn't have a beef with the Japanese. Besides which, the Japanese political ideology of the day was highly compatible with Nazism and both parties had mutual interests.
Besides, the Nazis happily entered into a pact with the 'evil Jewish Bolshevik menace', much of whose population were 'racially inferior' and shared Poland with them when it was prudent to do so. Indeed, if the Anglo/French taskforce being put together to help Finland against the Soviets had actually gone into action, it's likely a Nazi/Soviet military alliance would have come into being, at least for a time. And the war have taken a very different course. Alliances are frequently about tactical prudence.
On top of this, just because you're racist, it doesn't mean you hate everybody. You get lots of white people who don't mind Black people but are deeply prejudiced against Asians. Racism is irrational and hypocritical - you won't get far expecting it to make much sense.

In 1935, the Citizenship Law established as Jewish all those who had at least three full Jewish Grandparents. Or if you had two Jewish grandparents and a Jewish spouse or were of the Jewish faith. There were various rules on who could marry who in terms of their level of Jewish blood. it could get a bit complex, but fortunately they produced handy diagrams to help out.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/8c/250px-Nurembergracechart.jpg

From November 14 on, the civic rights of Jews were cancelled, their voting rights abolished; Jewish Civil Servants who had kept their positions owing to their veteran or veteran-related status were forced into retirement. On December 21 a second supplementary decree ordered the dismissal of Jewish professors, teachers, physicians, lawyers, and notaries who were state employees and had been granted exemptions

- remember lots of Jews had already been ousted from their careers, but there were various exceptions that held in place to this point.

The subsequent Law for the Protection of the Hereditary Health of the German People forbade marriage/sexual relations with undesirables of "alien blood";

Twelve days later a circular from the Ministry of the Interior was more specific: Those referred to were "Gypsies, Negroes and their bastards"

Just a brief snapshot of a point in an ongoing process.

(cited from the years of persecution - Nazi Germany and the Jews 1933-39 by Saul Friedlander chp.5)

I simply can't get my head round this notion Hitler was some kind of non-racist who was just against the 'evil, persecutory Judaic religion' - where do you get this stuff from?

If you have any credible evidence whatsoever that the SA (who had become a serious liability) were purged simply because they were racist, please enlighten me.

I apologise if I misunderstood your comment about my comment about your avatar.

white horse

07-01-2008, 11:43 PM

1. The Soviets, the Chinese Communists, the Khmer Rouge and other brands of Communist managed to commit tens of millions of murders mainly by shooting and by deliberate starvation. Why was this not good enough for the Nazis? Why would they choose to use insecticides when a bullet is much quicker, cheaper and more certain?
side?[/b]

I've done a lot of studies on the SS.

Dogsmilk is right in his comments. They did start by using bullets.

The anti-Semitism in Germany took two related tracks. First there was the social strand, that had Jews (and other undesirables like trade unions, Catholic leaders, Communists etc) and sectioned them off from society, into Ghettos and camps, work camps and internment camps.

While these were not extermination camps, they were quite brutal and had little regard for the welfare of the inmates. This began in 1933 from day one.

Much later came the practical side of the 'Final Solution.

In 1942 when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union there were SS units called Einsatzgruppen.

(NB, please remember there is a distinction between Germans and Nazis; The Werhmacht, the German Army, were not Nazis. They were an old traditional army just like the British Army, Hitler had made them swear allegiance to him on taking power, just like the British do to the Queen. Although there were rumblings and minor coup attempts, you could not expect them to turn on Hitler any more than you can expect the US army to turn on Bush today. The vast majority of the Wehrmacht would have had no knowledge of the Final Solution at all.

The SS had many parts to it; the Waffen SS was the military part of the SS. They took part in all the fighting from day one, and had no connection to any camp or policing activities. The Allgemein SS were the non-combat SS.)

Back to the plot...

In 1942 the Germans invaded the Soviet Union. The Einsatzgruppen were death squad units who followed behind the front. Initially, which may be surprising, the locals in places like Belorussia greeted the German Army with flowers and kisses, as they were seen as liberators from Stalin.

This all changed as word spread of what was happening just behind the first wave. The Einsatzgruppen would round up whole villages, get them to dig a large pit and shoot them all. These groups were mainly made up of thugs from the camps and those were did not make it into the Waffen SS.

(Incidentally, both the Werhmacht and the Waffen SS protested about the Einsatzgruppen - though not from a humanitarian point of view, but from a military point of view because as word spread, civilian resistance grew and made the advance difficult.)

Basically, Himmler's leaders in the field were concerned about the psychological impact of this on the members of Einsatzgruppen, as well as the cost in ammo. The mass killings were taking their toll on the moral of the Einsatzgruppen.

So they started to experiment. They started by using trucks, with the exhaust pipes turned inside, and gassing them that way. As this went on the central administration, and the murder squads in the field were sharing information and techniques, and this grew and grew.

So the practical aspects of mass murder were developed on the front in the brutality of war when it is easier to murder. This was joined centrally to the social aspects of the Final Solution where at first it was enough to round them up. Join that with the brutal thugs of the Einsatzgruppen hardened from the Eastern Front and you have the man power to carry it out. It is then easier fro an administrator to push pieces of paper around and for taht to translate into mass murder.

A good book to read to get into the mind of the SS and the circumstances of the Final Solution is Heinze Hohne The Order of the Deaths Head.

This is quite established... does that prove that 6 million were murdered? I dont know.

The bigest problem is that our own dear leaders in the UK and US are just as capable of executing evil as the Nazis, we just pretend to be whiter than white, so I am perfectly prepared to believe much of it was a lie. Another problem is making 'questioning' the holocaust a criminal offence. All truth should stand up to scrutiny, so why can we not debate this?

Also, I can see after studying this for years how it could happen.

white horse

08-01-2008, 06:34 PM

This does not prove Zyclon B killed 6 million Jews,

But it does give you a good idea of how this thing can creep up, slowly at first, then suddenly really quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

dogsmilk

08-01-2008, 10:39 PM

Nice posts.

The bigest problem is that our own dear leaders in the UK and US are just as capable of executing evil as the Nazis, we just pretend to be whiter than white, so I am perfectly prepared to believe much of it was a lie. Another problem is making 'questioning' the holocaust a criminal offence. All truth should stand up to scrutiny, so why can we not debate this?

Also, I can see after studying this for years how it could happen.

I think you've raised a really interesting point here, but I tend to think of it as not so much a lie as a distraction. One that I think Holocaust Denial actual serves to reinforce.

There has been a certain amount of material written that critiques the way the Holocaust is presented, in terms of its centrality, its place in cultures, its political invocation etc. the Holocaust industry by Norman Finkelstein, the Holocaust in American life by Peter Novick and selling the Holocaust by Tim Cole all offer their own interesting perspectives. However, Finkelstein for one is frequently quoted and cited by deniers - and apparently the ADL have previously described him as one too. Yet though you see deniers mention the Holocaust industry a lot, in it he actually has a go at Deborah Lipstadt for taking denial seriously:
To document widespread Holocaust denial, Lipstadt cites a handful of crank publications. Her piece de resistance is Arthur Butz, a nonentity who teaches electrical engineering at Northwestern University and who published his book the hoax of the twentieth century with an obscure press. Lipstadt entitles the chapter on him "entering the mainstream". Were it not for the likes of Lipstadt, no one would have heard of Arthur Butz.
- p.69
and when deniers cite him they kinda forget 'the daddy' of Holocaust scholars, Raul Hilberg, gave vocal support to Finkelstein for his work (not to mention the right of deniers to speak).
The whole debate about what Peter Novick calls 'the holocaust myth' tends to get obscured and ignored because the 'myth' bit keeps getting brought back to "did the Holocaust happen" rather than "how is the holocaust presented and maybe used". Bizarrely, any exploitation of the Holocaust for political interest is helped by the deniers as it muddies the debate and encourages writing people like Finkelstein off.
I haven't got round to reading it yet, but Ward Churchill's a little matter of genocide looks very interesting. Without even having read it yet, the fact it looks at the holocaust in relation to the genocide of the American Indians immediately brings to mind the point that in a sense enshrining the Holocaust is 'safer' than facing up to the recognition of and taking responsibility for the fact that basically continent-wide genocide went down so America could happen. Genocide that basically Americans and their European ancestors are responsible for. It's nicer for Americans to remember how they were the good guys for once. More now than ever - now they're doing the whole evil Reich thing.
And it's little surprise Armenia gets less attention when Turkey is very important right now, just as it's little surprise East Timor gets less attention than Cambodia when one was done by official allies and the other by official enemies (though exactly when Pol Pot has been our friend and exactly when our enemy is confusing I grant).
None of which has any bearing whatsoever on what was actually happening in Poland in the early 1940s
The supposed 'uniqueness' of the Holocaust maybe also obfuscates the fact that when people say “Never Again”, there's still the fact all kinds of other atrocities are going down right now. And the people suffering them don't give a shit how comparable to the Holocaust they are. Of course our leaders are easily capable of terrible evils – just because they're not exactly the same, it doesn't make that any more palatable. Heh, when people go on about implausible sounding testimony at Nuremburg it sometimes makes me wonder if in 60 years people will be sneering at tales of Iraqis being locked in metal containers and having Barney the dinosaur played at top volume over and over again as torture – “Abu Ghraib just wasn't that bad, and some of the crazy stories that were reported...”

And who cares exactly how many people died? 5 million? 6 million? No-one will ever really know for sure. People often say 2 million died in Cambodia, but browse the net and you'll find widely varying estimates. It was just pretty darn bad is all I care about. Otherwise, would the Holocaust be 'better' if it turned out to be 4 million? 3? If it turned out Cambodia was actually 1 million, would that make it literally half as bad?

I (obviously) wouldn't want to belittle or play down the Holocaust and the idea of some kind of league table of worst genocides is distasteful to say the least, but as far as I'm concerned the best thing we can do is learn how these things can happen and take a good hard look at how similar the dynamics at play are today as the folk that carried out the Holocaust were generally just regular Joes. Unless, of course, you think Hitler and Nazism were great.

Ah well, turn on the telly it's all Muslim conspiracy theories, go on the net it's all Jewish conspiracy theories. You just can't win. I think I may start blaming the Zoroastrians for stuff – just to be different.

In a way, David Icke has been subject to the same obfuscation dynamic I was going on about what with all those (ludicrous if you ask me) accusations he's an anti-semite as shown in that Jon Ronson doc. Yet Combat 18 saying reptoids are a metaphor for Jews helps reinforce this.

Similarly, characters such as Eric Hufschmid have (when he's not busy accusing everyone in the whole world of being a 'Zionist') championed both 911 truth and Holocaust denial at the same time and 'the Jews did 911' is a persistent meme. The 911 truth movement has become remarkably sizeable in a very short time indeed – and hey presto Holocaust denial frequently tries to come along for the ride, asserting it's all connected (the connection being – da jooos!)

I got into the whole Holocaust thing simply because I kept coming across one or two people on forums consistently determined to push Holocaust denial (again and again) and I didn't know the answers to some of the stuff they came out with. You see the same videos posted again and again. Like Jehovah's Witnesses (no disrespect to JW's though – every one I've ever met has been lovely), it appears you must do your door knocking to spread the faith.
And - fuck me - I find out that from the opposite POV I've become a Holocaust bore myself!

Not that I'm suggesting it's an 'Illuminati plot' or whatever, more canny salesmanship ultimately stemming from people who know where they stand politically that has the side effect of tarring its targets with the same political brush.

Personally, I think banning Holocaust denial is unjust and unworkable – though I can understand why survivors get a bit annoyed with being repeatedly told they're either lying or deluded.

Ah! But if Holocaust denial is illegal...there must be something to hide!!!!
as the common mantra goes.

Yet this is a logical fallacy – or do people think if publishing inflammatory racist tracts is banned it therefore means said tracts are brimming with truth?
Does denying the Armenian genocide being illegal in France mean there's more to hide there than in America where it isn't?
All 911 truthers may as well pack up and go home – the legality of your pursuit means there's obviously nothing to hide.
That David Icke talks bollocks else they'd have banned him surely?
In fact, no-ones trying to ban people talking about virtually the entire content of this forum – you may as well all migrate to CODOH.
Banning Holocaust denial has given it the most publicity it's ever had and garnered it sympathy in the right to free speech department from many people who otherwise despise it. While at the same time, you can freely watch numerous denier videos on google video and download whole books off the net – as an 'Illuminati plot to hide the truth' or whatever, as far as I'm concerned it simply doesn't cut the mustard.

If there was some big secret truth I was afraid of which was nevertheless already out there, personally I'd ignore it, draw attention to something else and let it drown among all the spam.

tothestars

10-01-2008, 10:39 AM

Heat the gas externally and circulate the gas/air mixture through plumbing outside the chamber and back into the chamber.
Not so safe for the users but what the heck :)