'Miraculous' Stairs Unknown Species of Wood

[nosferatu_dj]

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/225775-Analysis-of-Sample-From-Miraculous-Stairs-in-Santa-Fe-Found-Unknown-Species-of-Wood

Analysis of Sample From 'Miraculous' Stairs in Santa Fe Found Unknown Species of Wood (http://www.spiritdaily.com/newmexico2.htm)


Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:27 CST

You perhaps have heard of it, the staircase at Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where -- according to the literature -- nuns who operated a convent there began a novena to Saint Joseph, patron of carpenters and builders, when they needed a way to easily traverse up to the choir loft, which previously had been accessed by ladder. Their dilemma was that there was no room for a stairway as normal stairways go. A flurry of carpenters they consulted had said so.

http://www.sott.net/image/image/s3/60698/medium/newmex2.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/image/s3/60698/full/newmex2.jpg)© Unknown

According to accounts, on the last day of the novena, a gray-haired man came to the convent with a donkey and a tool chest -- basically, a saw, a hammer, and a square. He also needed tubs to soak wood. They gave him the job, and he set about the work on July 25, 1873, taking what is now estimated as six to eight months to complete it. Only wood pegs (no nails) were used. And the result was exquisite.

"The winding stairway that the old man left for the sisters is a masterpiece of beauty and wonder," noted St. Joseph Magazine. "It makes two complete 360-degree turns. There is no supporting pole up the center as most circular stairways have. This means it hangs there with no support. The entire weight is on the base. Some architects have said that by all laws of gravity, it should have crashed to the floor the minute anyone stepped on it and yet was used daily for nearly a hundred years." Indeed, there are photos of the staircase filled with members of the choir!

When the sisters went to pay the man, continues the account, he had vanished. There is no record of paying anyone a penny for the incredible piece of carpentry.

We have had an article on this previously. "I spoke with Urban C. Weidner, a Santa Fe architect and wood expert, about the staircase," noted Sister M. Florian. "He told me that he had never seen a circular wooden stairway with 360-degree turns that did not have a supporting pole down the center. One of the most baffling things about the stairway, however, is the perfection of the curves of the stringers, according to Mr. Weidner. He told me that the wood is spliced along the sides of the stringers with nine splices on the outside and seven on the inside. Each piece is perfectly curved. How this came about in the 1870s by a single man in an out-of-the-way place with only the most primitive tools has never been explained."

Indeed, it is a gorgeous piece of woodwork -- now with banisters (it was originally constructed without any).

An angel? St. Joseph himself?

"Sisters, going in to the Chapel to pray, saw the tubs with wood soaking in them, but the man always withdrew while they said their prayers, returning to his work when the Chapel was free," says another account. " Some there are who say the circular stair which stands there today was built very quickly. Others say no, it took quite a little time. But the stair did grow, rising solidly in a double helix without support of any kind and without nail or screw. The floor space used was minimal and the stair adds to, rather than detracts from, the beauty of the chapel."

Some claim (for example in Wikipedia) the riddle of the carpenter's identity was finally solved in the late 1990s by Mary Jean Straw Cook, author of Loretto: The Sisters and Their Santa Fe Chapel (2002: Museum of New Mexico Press). She claimed his name was Francois-Jean "Frenchy" Rochas, an expert woodworker who emigrated from France and arrived in Santa Fe around the time the staircase was built. In addition to evidence that linked Rochas to another French contractor who worked on the chapel, Cook found an 1895 death notice in The New Mexican explicitly naming Rochas as the builder of "the handsome staircase in the Loretto chapel." However, the skeptical viewpoint comes in large part from a magazine operated by humanists and atheists (and in fact called The Skeptical Inquirer).

We would like to emphasize another twist to this mystery. It comes to us from Richard Lindsley, who managed the Loretto Chapel (which is now in private hands) from 1991 to 2006 and says at one point he took a sample of wood from the staircase and gave it to a scientist named Forrest N. Easley, who worked at the Naval Air Weapons Station at China Lake, California.

"I went to the top of the stairs," Lindsley told Spirit Daily. "There's a crack that's held together with a metal plate. The staircase had sunk an inch or inch-and-a-half into the floor. That's where I pried a loose piece and gave it to him. I expected to hear the results quickly."

Instead, says Lindsley, two months passed and he all but gave up about hearing anything. But one day, he recalls, Easley showed up at the chapel because he wanted to report his results in person. What he told Lindsley was straight to the point: the wood sample was spruce of no known subspecies. It matched nothing in the scientific record. Easley had wanted to thoroughly search through all known data. That's what had caused the delay. He researched it further and after 18 months came out with a careful, measured statement saying that the wood from the staircase had molecules that were "very dense and square" and indicated that it had come from trees that grew slowly in a "very, very cold place," like Alaska (not New Mexico).

That was interesting because at the time the chapel was constructed -- by the mysterious stranger -- there was no rail system that could have brought in the wood from such a distance, and no local trees that grew above an elevation of 10,000 feet -- which is the only place of comparable cold.

The closest match remained spruce from Alaska.

In short, it was no known type.

"He claimed to have discovered a new subspecies," says Lindsley.

"He called it Pinacae Ticea 'Josefii' Easley," or 'Loretto spruce."

Let's call it a mystery.

Or a miracle.

Ah, St. Joseph!

[martg]

Interesting article DJ

[zephiloyd]

amazing story, thanks :)

[bittisgabonica]

I coulda done it with my eyeballs closed....But since I was not the one who did it, very nice and interesting article op.

[griswald]

I coulda done it with my eyeballs closed....But since I was not the one who did it, very nice and interesting article op.

Nothing amazing about it. I could do it in my sleep , with a modern workshop. Of course with hand tools, it would be a pain in the arse.


griswald

[kiolm]

Nothing amazing about it. I could do it in my sleep , with a modern workshop. Of course with hand tools, it would be a pain in the arse.


griswald

You make spiral stairs for a living?

[griswald]

You make spiral stairs for a living?


I,ve spent 40 years in architectural joinery

gris

[griswald]

Its not actually known as a spiral stairs, in the trade its more commonly known a s a double helix, as its not framed a round a central pole as a standard spiral staircase is.

Quite a widespead manufacturing process, interesting tho.

The double helix spiral stair - YouTube

gris

[kiolm]

I've spent 25 years in Construction and seen several spiral stairs built. But nothing that high and done by one guy without steel, nails and plywood. I don't know of anyone who could build that today using hand tools and no computer or plwood.

It a pretty amazing accomplishment and if it were to be featured in "Wood Working Today" people would be blown away.

I would like to see some close up photos and more of them.

The wood was probably shipped from Alaska.

[measle_weasel]

Cool article

[griswald]

I've spent 25 years in Construction and seen several spiral stairs built. But nothing that high and done by one guy without steel, nails and plywood. I don't know of anyone who could build that today using hand tools and no computer or plwood.

It a pretty amazing accomplishment and if it were to be featured in "Wood Working Today" people would be blown away.

I would like to see some close up photos and more of them.

The wood was probably shipped from Alaska.

Well now you do:D

Constructionally each part is repetitve the whole way up the stairs. Each segment of handrail fits in any handrail position up the stairs. Treads are the same, and so is the riser and string sections.

Funny thing about this particular stairs is that a scaled model of it is sold as a tourist gimmick.

The last company I worked for had one in the foyer, and we were a curved stair manufacturer:D

griswald

[griswald]

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/helix_to_heaven/

Some people have thought the free-standing structure should have collapsed long ago, we are told, and builders and architects supposedly “never fail to marvel how it manages to stay in place,” considering that it is “without a center support” (Albach 1965). In fact, though, as one wood technologist observes, “the staircase does have a central support.” He observes that of the two wood stringers (or spiral structural members) the inner one is of such small radius that it “functions as an almost solid pole” (Easley 1997).

There is also another support — one that goes unmentioned, but which I observed when I visited the now-privately owned chapel in 1993. This is an iron brace or bracket that stabilizes the staircase by rigidly connecting the outer stringer to one of the columns that support the loft (see Figure 2).


Figure 2. Iron support bracket (unmentioned in published accounts) reveals the “miracle” is a partial one. (Photos by Joe Nickell)
There is reason to suspect that the staircase may be more unstable and, potentially, unsafe than some realize. It has been closed to public travel since at least the mid-1970s (when the reason was given as lack of other egress from the loft in case of fire). When I visited in 1993 my understanding was that it was suffering from the constant traffic. Barbara Hershey implied the same when she stated, “It still functions, though people aren't allowed to go up it very often” (Bobbin 1998). It would thus appear that the Loretto staircase is subject to the laws of physics like any other

griswald

[majorlee]

man thats pretty impressive


maybe Jesus got bored and came back down for a bit..... u know? :p:p:p

[spock]

(no nails) were used.


yeah.......... i use sticks like shit these days.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/2047591957_4185f768c6.jpg

seriously tho. it is a work of art.
ruined by the banisters imo.

it's no surprise to me that the standard of joinery was high in the 1800's
there are many wooden structures still standing that are over 500 years old. older even

Builders had lead pipes over 2000 years ago with soldered joints.

[hadabusa]

no record of payment?

i think he got paid by sexual means.

:D

[starschildren]

Cool story, thanks for sharing.

[angelchemuel]

Its not actually known as a spiral stairs, in the trade its more commonly known a s a double helix, as its not framed a round a central pole as a standard spiral staircase is.

Quite a widespead manufacturing process, interesting tho.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idAahpAPre0

gris

I first saw the original stairs on Sott.com a couple of days ago. Thank you for posting the video gris, very very lovely and 'organic'. If I ever come into money, I'll buy a house and get one of these put in. Absolutely beautiful.

Rainbows
angelchemuel

[jeff_bloomfield]

So your saying Gris, that a person has but to master the construction of the first step and then you just replicate for the rest of the stairs?

It does sound easy when you look at it like that. As long as you are careful and work accurately it would be easy to do over a long period of time.

[truepositive]

Its not actually known as a spiral stairs, in the trade its more commonly known a s a double helix

And what does that signify? :D

[griswald]

So your saying Gris, that a person has but to master the construction of the first step and then you just replicate for the rest of the stairs?

It does sound easy when you look at it like that. As long as you are careful and work accurately it would be easy to do over a long period of time.


For a spiral stairs , thats basically the process. For a stairs with treads only on a spiral, its very simple.

You would have a pie shaped tread fixed to a central pole. You could use a central steel column, with wooden sockets fitting on the column, these would seperate each tread.

The basic method of making the side curved strings , is to use an inner drum as a construction form .When you decide what the circle diameter, in plan, is of the complete stairs, you make a temporary drum of 3x2 , and the full height of the stairs.

Then you laminate the string , and bend it around the outside of the drum, and hold it with clamps until the glue sets. same method is ised for the handrail.

gris...

[griswald]

And what does that signify? :D

More than your question:D

griswald

[jimmi]

Speaking from the perspective of a fully qualified carpenter/joiner with over thirty years experience, that is an incredible piece of work, even more so when you take into account the time it was made.

Anyone that makes a statement like, "I could do it with my eyes closed", really does need an ego check.

[firepoet]

Thanks OP, makes an a very cool story.

[savethehumans]

Some shenanigans going on with the, "unknown wood subspecies".

[griswald]

Speaking from the perspective of a fully qualified carpenter/joiner with over thirty years experience, that is an incredible piece of work, even more so when you take into account the time it was made.

Anyone that makes a statement like, "I could do it with my eyes closed", really does need an ego check.


Well as an experienced carpenter, you should be well able to distinguish a miraculous piece of joinery, to a work of god:D

I personally would be well up for the task, having spent over 40 years in architectural joinery. Woodwork was not a career for me , it has been a lifelong passion, and well beyond the normal weekly money earner. My family history too, has cabinetmaking and furniture well engrained in it.

I have spent a lifetime enjoying and perfecting my craft in wood work, and all things wood. Sorry if my ego slipped out there:D, doesn,t everyones at times.
But I can assure you, worlwide, thousands of these are made daily.

griswald

[reptileslayer]

Very interesting story i love wood

[kiolm]

no record of payment?

i think he got paid by sexual means.

:D
lol your probably right:D

[jimmi]

I have to disagree Griswald, I am sure that there are not "thousands of these made daily", there may very well be factories with all the facilities available to produce one but a stairs such as in the op is an extremely rare sight, even more so when taking into account that the original had no handrail.

For one man to construct that stairs alone, 'on site' with only rudimentary tools, is an incredible achievement. Note that I still haven't mentioned God or miracles.

Have you ever actually made one yourself? Alone?

[sweeping_meteor]

Very interesting story i love wood

lol

[griswald]

I have to disagree Griswald, I am sure that there are not "thousands of these made daily", there may very well be factories with all the facilities available to produce one but a stairs such as in the op is an extremely rare sight, even more so when taking into account that the original had no handrail.

For one man to construct that stairs alone, 'on site' with only rudimentary tools, is an incredible achievement. Note that I still haven't mentioned God or miracles.

Have you ever actually made one yourself? Alone?

Alright hundreds. The point I am trying to make is that its not impossible to make this at all.

The fact that it was made with basic handtools is not as amazing as it sounds either, as even in todays manfacturing process, there would be a great deal of handwork involved too. Granted you would be plugging in an electric planer as opposed to a hand plane.

For you, it may appear to be an amazing piece of work. for me as I understand the construction techniques used, its not as amazing. There are other master craftsmen on this forum that would be well able to make it too, and I know one in particular that may offer his insite as well.

Of course I have made stairs of every description in my working career. thats part of what I had been taught, I wouldn,t be stupid enough to make statements on this particular thread, if i didn,t have the knowledge to support my opinions.

Its a remarkable piece of work for one man at the time, but its not miraculous.
The most recent construction studies class in last years final year had spiral stairs as a project. In fact I mentored a young chap on the techniques and methods used in its construction during his project. He was only 18 , and understood the process.

I,d be quite happy to make you a spiral stairs Jimmi, but current prices here are around 25k for a single flight, but as I am now retired I,m sure I could arrange a discount;)

griswald.....

[practicaltheorist]

Alright hundreds. The point I am trying to make is that its not impossible to make this at all.

The fact that it was made with basic handtools is not as amazing as it sounds either, as even in todays manfacturing process, there would be a great deal of handwork involved too. Granted you would be plugging in an electric planer as opposed to a hand plane.

For you, it may appear to be an amazing piece of work. for me as I understand the construction techniques used, its not as amazing. There are other master craftsmen on this forum that would be well able to make it too, and I know one in particular that may offer his insite as well.

Of course I have made stairs of every description in my working career. thats part of what I had been taught, I wouldn,t be stupid enough to make statements on this particular thread, if i didn,t have the knowledge to support my opinions.

Its a remarkable piece of work for one man at the time, but its not miraculous.
The most recent construction studies class in last years final year had spiral stairs as a project. In fact I mentored a young chap on the techniques and methods used in its construction during his project. He was only 18 , and understood the process.

I,d be quite happy to make you a spiral stairs Jimmi, but current prices here are around 25k for a single flight, but as I am now retired I,m sure I could arrange a discount;)

griswald.....


Cool, if you did it with a hand saw, some rasps, a chisel, some tubs to soak wood in and the other simple hand tools of the 1800`s. If you could do that for 25k I`d be impressed. :)

Nothing is a feat with todays technology. Modern, mass produced items - even things like these stairs - are not impressive. I would actually go as far as to say its no longer craft - as opposed to what it was back when this was actually made - due to all the automatic milling and processing that can be done. Miracle? Pretty damn close if you consider the circumstances :) Not only because of how and when it was made, but also because of the stunning result. If technically explainable and "simple"... everything is simple for those who know how to do it. One mans miracle is anothers bread and butter.

Thats why I love old furniture, houses and hand made items in general. Someone made them, not just machines. So kudos to any and all craftsmen and women in here for all you`ve created by hand. You`ve actually contributed to something of REAL value in the world.

[milone]

I remember hearing this story on a t.v. program as a child...I think they said there were 33 stairs in total...interesting number...

[griswald]

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_mysterious_staircase15.htm


Erected between 1873 and 1878 on the grounds of the Academy of Our Lady of Light, a Catholic girls school in Santa Fe, New Mexico, the Loretto Chapel stands out to this day as a rare example of Gothic Revival architecture in a landscape dominated by Pueblo and adobe. It was commissioned by Archbishop Jean-Baptiste Lamy and designed by French architect Antoine Mouly with the help of his son, Projectus, who were said to have modeled it on the historic Sainte-Chapelle in Paris.

Since the elder Mouly was infirm and going blind at this time, actual construction of the chapel fell to Projectus, who by all accounts did a creditable job until he himself fell ill with pneumonia (or, according to a different account, was shot by Archbishop Lamy's nephew, who suspected Mouly of philandering with his wife) and died. It is here that the so-called "legend of the miraculous staircase" begins.

The building of the miraculous staircase

Despite Mouly's death, the main work on the chapel was completed in 1878. The builders were left with a quandary, however: there was no means of access to the choir loft, little or no room for a staircase, and no one had the slightest idea how Mouly had intended to address the challenge. Unsatisfied with the prevailing opinion that a ladder would have to suffice, the Sisters of Loretto sought divine assistance by praying a novena to St. Joseph, the patron saint of carpenters. On the ninth day of prayer, a stranger appeared with a donkey and a toolbox. He said he needed work, and offered to build a staircase.

Build one he did, and the glistening, all-wood structure is a marvel to behold, spiraling upward 22 feet from floor to loft in two 360-degree turns without any evident means of support. The ingenious carpenter not only solved the problem of floor space, but in so doing designed a structure whose beauty actually enhanced the aesthetic appeal of the entire chapel.

When the sisters went to thank him, he was gone. No one even knew his name. "After searching for the man (an ad even ran in the local newspaper) and finding no trace of him," says the Loretto Chapel Website, "some concluded that he was St. Joseph himself who came in answer to the sisters' prayers."

The "miracle," then, is twofold: one, the staircase was built by a nameless stranger -- possibly St. Joseph himself -- who seemingly appeared in answer to a prayer and disappeared just as mysteriously; two, though built entirely of wood -- no nails, no screws, no metal of any kind -- and lacking any kind of central support, the staircase was structurally sound and still stands today.

Either way you look at it, the so-called miracle of the staircase crumbles under scrutiny.

Who really built it?

The subject of rumor and legend for over a hundred years, the riddle of the carpenter's identity was finally solved in the late 1990s by Mary Jean Straw Cook, author of Loretto: The Sisters and Their Santa Fe Chapel (2002: Museum of New Mexico Press). His name was Francois-Jean "Frenchy" Rochas, an expert woodworker who emigrated from France in 1880 and arrived in Santa Fe right around the time the staircase was built. In addition to evidence that linked Rochas to another French contractor who worked on the chapel, Cook found an 1895 death notice in The New Mexican explicitly naming Rochas as the builder of "the handsome staircase in the Loretto chapel."

This demonstrates among other things that the carpenter's identity was not a mystery to residents of Santa Fe at the time. At some point, presumably after the last remaining members of the generation of Santa Feans who witnessed the building of the Loretto Chapel firsthand passed away, Rocha's contribution to the Loretto Chapel faded from memory, and history gave way to legend.

As to the mystery of the origin of the wood used in the construction of the staircase, Cook theorizes that it was imported from France -- indeed, the entire staircase may have been built start to finish in France and shipped intact to America.

What holds it up?

As skeptical author Joe Nickell explains in his article "Helix to Heaven," there is nothing mysterious, much less miraculous, about the stairway's design. To begin with, though it has indeed stood the test of time and never collapsed in the 125-plus years of its existence, the integrity of the structure has long been in question and public use of the stairs has been forbidden since the 1970s.

Notwithstanding the lack of a central column, the staircase does benefit from central support in the form of an inner stringer (one of the two upwardly-spiraling beams to which the steps are attached) whose curvature radius is so tight that it functions as "an almost solid pole," in the words of a wood technologist quoted by Nickell. In addition -- and this seems to have gone unnoticed by those who choose to emphasize the "mysteries" of the staircase -- the outer stringer is attached to a neighboring pillar via an iron bracket, providing extra structural support.

In lieu of nails, Rochas fitted the staircase together with dowels or wooden pegs, a not uncommon technique still used by some woodworkers today. Far from weakening a structure, the use of wooden pegs can actually strengthen critical joints because, unlike iron nails or screws, the pegs expand and contract under varying weather conditions at the same rate as the surrounding wood.

Call it a marvel, call it an inspired feat of engineering, call it an aesthetic triumph -- the spiral staircase of Loretto Chapel is a work of beauty and deserves its status as an international tourist attraction. The word "miracle," however, is misapplied

griswald

[jimmi]

So Griswald, just to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding your answer to my question, you are telling us that you have made hundreds of 'double helix' spiral stairs, on your own?

I would love to see some examples of your work, I'm sure you must have many photos considering how special it is.:D

[griswald]

So Griswald, just to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding your answer to my question, you are telling us that you have made hundreds of 'double helix' spiral stairs, on your own?

I would love to see some examples of your work, I'm sure you must have many photos considering how special it is.:D

Ah jimmi, I think you know what context the word hundreds was used in. :)

I,ve made many spiral stairs, doglegs, winders ect through out my career. As well as many other pieces of architectural joinery, furniture, carving ect. On my own as well as part of a manufacturing team in all woodworking environments.

I dont consider any of them to be exceptional enough to keep a lifetime log of them. I do have a website that has some pieces on it that are special to me, above and beyond standard joinery items. But I wont post that here, as it has personel info about me attached to it, and I prefer to keep my private details to my self.

Why would I say that I could produce something, if I could not. I get the impression that you doubt my ability to do the job. If you know the techniques, its straight forward when you know how.

If you want to finance the materials and labour cost for a scale project or part section, I,ll discuss that with you by pm:)

griswald

[griswald]

There,s even a film made about it, starring Barbara hershey and William Peterson:) called " The Staircase"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0152588/

griswald

[redman]

Anyone else think Griswald is coming across like a swollen ego-ed know it all tit ??

[jimmi]

Anyone else think Griswald is coming across like a swollen ego-ed know it all tit ??

Before I answer the question I'd like to make a few points.

There is a post where it is stated that someone could have done it with their eyeballs closed, to which I wrote that anyone making a statement like that was in need of an ego check. Then Griswald started quoting my posts, possibly his ego believed that I was referring to him when I mentioned an ego check.

I explained in my first post that I have over thirty years experience as a carpenter/joiner but Griswald goes on to imply that I would need him to show me how to produce a stairs such as in the op.

When asked simple questions he avoids giving straight answers.

So my answer to the question is a simple yes:D

[griswald]

Before I answer the question I'd like to make a few points.

There is a post where it is stated that someone could have done it with their eyeballs closed, to which I wrote that anyone making a statement like that was in need of an ego check. Then Griswald started quoting my posts, possibly his ego believed that I was referring to him when I mentioned an ego check.

I explained in my first post that I have over thirty years experience as a carpenter/joiner but Griswald goes on to imply that I would need him to show me how to produce a stairs such as in the op.

When asked simple questions he avoids giving straight answers.

So my answer to the question is a simple yes:D

I took it that your post was directed toward me, thats why I quoted it. I dont believe that I implied in any post that you would need any instruction from me. Can you show me that quote.

I have answered any question that you asked of me .

As a 30 year craftsman your self, I.d expect that you would be able to make such a stairs. Would I be right in that assumption, as I,d expect I would be.If you are an experienced crafts man, it would not present a problem for you.

You asked about my ability to make such a stairs, and I,ve offered to make a section of one, if you cover the cost.

If my over exuberent confidence in my abilities makes me a tit, then handsup, I am a tit.:D And thanks for your vote Jimmi:)

As I have already posted, its remarkable, but not miraculous, if you understand the construction process. I cant apologise for knowing the techniques, nor could any other tradesmen that do too.

gris...

[egozero]

Anyone else think Griswald is coming across like a swollen ego-ed know it all tit ??

griswald

[egozero]

griswald

[johnfb]

I took it that your post was directed toward me, thats why I quoted it. I dont believe that I implied in any post that you would need any instruction from me. Can you show me that quote.

I have answered any question that you asked of me .

As a 30 year craftsman your self, I.d expect that you would be able to make such a stairs. Would I be right in that assumption, as I,d expect I would be.If you are an experienced crafts man, it would not present a problem for you.

You asked about my ability to make such a stairs, and I,ve offered to make a section of one, if you cover the cost.

If my over exuberent confidence in my abilities makes me a tit, then handsup, I am a tit.:D And thanks for your vote Jimmi:)

As I have already posted, its remarkable, but not miraculous, if you understand the construction process. I cant apologise for knowing the techniques, nor could any other tradesmen that do too.

gris...



You're right, don't hide your light under a bushel

[jimmi]

Ok Griswald that was decent post from you and at least we both agree that it is a remarkable piece of work, I can be as much a tit as anyone can be so here's a formal hand in friendship but I'll send you a less informal one by pm:D

[griswald]

Ok Griswald that was decent post from you and at least we both agree that it is a remarkable piece of work, I can be as much a tit as anyone can be so here's a formal hand in friendship but I'll send you a less informal one by pm:D


Fair enough, here,s my hand , and a pic of my last piece of work.:)

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3064/staghead2.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/staghead2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

by hand of course:D

gris....

[practicaltheorist]

Fair enough, here,s my hand , and a pic of my last piece of work.:)

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3064/staghead2.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/staghead2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

by hand of course:D

gris....

Very nice work, Gris. You are obviously very talented.

[johnfb]

Is that bog oak ?...if so then I take my hat off to you for working that with hand tools...very impressive.

[griswald]

Is that bog oak ?...if so then I take my hat off to you for working that with hand tools...very impressive.

Indeed it is bog oak:), beautiful material, but hard stuff. Similar material has been dated at 5000 years old. From a midlands bog , but decent stuff is hard to get now.

gris...