Demon at the threshold

[jconnar]

The Demon at the threshold is your 'EGO'.


What do people have to say about this?

[jconnar]

Overcoming the EGO.

Becoming free of thought

Becoming free of the identification of thought

[bilvamiswilliam]

If there is one thing that perplexes and somewhat frightens me about the eastern philosophies and their philosophers both ancient and modern is their concept of the need to abolish the ego.

I see the ego as the central-nervous system of the self it gives us identification and awareness.

A very good series to read IMO that speaks of such matters is 'The Word Speaks to The Faustian Man'. Which is a contemporary commentary on certain ancient Hindu texts by one Som Raj Gupta. (I have the fourth volume and the fifth volume of the series and am almost finished with the fourth.)

Now I do agree with what S.R.G. says in his series I just simply cannot outright accept what he says like a mortal agreeing that there is such a thing as death but not accepting that death may be the ultimate end with neither reward, retribution or recognition of cognizant continuation.

[knightofthegrail]

Why do people assume Buddhism has it right?

[jconnar]

Why do people assume Buddhism has it right?

Why do you think people assume Buddhism has it right?

What do you think represents the Demon on the threshold?

Could also be lower nature of the person that needs to be defeated?

[knightofthegrail]

Why do you think people assume Buddhism has it right?

I don't know. That is why I asked the question. So why do people assume Buddhism has it right?

[jconnar]

I don't know. That is why I asked the question. So why do people assume Buddhism has it right?

I don't know why. On a personal note, I don't assume Buddhism has it right.

[engelsblume]

Ego just needs to be controled, not abolished. If you ask me, that is. :)

As long as a person doesn't attach too much to their "temporary" role, all is well.

And I should listen to my own advice. :D

[knightofthegrail]

I don't know why. On a personal note, I don't assume Buddhism has it right.

You are promoting becoming free of "ego" and "thought" aren't you?

[jconnar]

You are promoting becoming free of "ego" and "thought" aren't you?

No, it was simply a statement that I wanted people to comment about and give their opinions.

[shinobishaw1982]

I have been wanting to post on this forum as a lurker for quite sometime normally because there is a lot of misconceptions and half-truths being spouted here a lot of times of Esoteric Philosophy with people throwing concepts without any real knowledge as to what it represents.

It's not 'Demon on the Threshold' it is "Dweller on the Threshold" or "Dragon on the Threshold."

This concept is NOT about ego (not sure where you go this info), the real Dweller on the Threshold is when a human falls and mires themselves with the material life and it's the utter emptiness and destitute of leading such a life. But it is not done by supressing it or rejecting it but by healing it.

Eastern philosophies do not promote the idea of abolishing the ego because...

a) not possible as there are many different egos (higher and lower) in the human constitution.

b) The ego is to be raised to the higher ranges of Self and let it be inspire and raise from lower to higher.

Finally Buddhism is probably one of the purest mainstream traditions that there is, plenty of Wisdom there.

[bilvamiswilliam]

The 'ego' or the 'Ahamkara' (I am what proceeds as light from sun) is if not an outright false representation of reality it's a very narrow and dim view of it. This is in accordance with many of the mainstream interpretations of the Upanishads albeit they being deliberately esoteric by the very meaning of the name itself so arguably interpretations of the promotion of individual ego can and has indeed been promoted in certain schools of thought that have arisen from and in India.

The whole mention of the 'ego' being mired in to the material is the concept of the ego being ensnared in the 'nama-rupa' (name-form) which can be brought to mean 'mind-body' construct. This shows that it was more than the mere gross materialism of reality.

We name and formulate what our senses perceive and thus cause separation amongst act, actor and action which gives rise to the karma that further ensnares us.

The 'promotion' as the previous poster put it I and the majority of what we know of the early bhaysam (commentaries) of the Sruti (Scriptures) will have to respectfully disagree.:)

Both the Hindus and to a much greater extent the Buddhists were advocating what the Hindus viewed as the truth was there is no 'ego' there is only 'Brahm' or for the Buddhists there isn't even 'Brahm' there is only 'Karma' and its cure 'Nirvana' which had to arise in the mind-body construct in order to break free.

'Buddha' does not mean 'awaken' it's the neutral non-possessive gender of the feminine-possessive word 'Buddhi' meaning 'intellect' or that which possess intellect so 'Buddha' means letting go of the possessiveness i.e. the ego which is the intellect.

The concept of higher-conscious selves comes from the new-age movement and their egotistical spiritual superiority BS:mad: (sorry for the offense new agers:p) about how they interpreted ancient eastern beliefs and doctrines especially the Shaivite-Tantric tradition of the Kundalini whose 'divine anatomy' of chakras and what pertains to them is so complex and hidden that I'd argue 99% of what people read especially over the web is BS.:rolleyes::mad:

There are different states of consciouness such as 'jagrat' (waking/walking) 'svapana' (dreaming) susupti (deep-sleep) and turiya/samhadi ( oneness) the last state we have yet to realize it for we are discussing it, it cannot be touched by any thought but it is thought or better put that what posseses thought that is required to enter into such a state, a state which like the nirvanic state of the buddhist evaporates or burns out the thought of identity i.e. the 'ego'.

I could say more on this fascinating subject but my post already probably looks like textual vomit to many already so I will refrain and allot space and time for others to post either rebuttals, agreements, enquires, doubts or just their own points of view regardless of correspondence of what is in this here post stated.

[knightofthegrail]

Finally Buddhism is probably one of the purest mainstream traditions that there is, plenty of Wisdom there.

Plenty of nonsense there. Buddhism is a religion suited to an abundant environment where you can just reach out and pluck food, or sit down and find shelter. In a temperate or sub-arctic environment, Siddhattha would have rapidly frozen or starved to death because you need to plan for the future in order to have fuel for a winter fire, or to farm or hunt. Buddhism is the religion of the cow, but it is of feck all use to the sheepdog or the wolf. ;)

[shinobishaw1982]

bilvamiswilliam:

There are many 'egos' which in the lower portions of the human constitution identifies with matter and the object and in the higher ranges starts to identify less with matter and more with its true parent....the SELF.

Ego is in reality the Self-Conscious Mind, SELF is (to us) Unconscious and SELF needs a 'vehicle' in order to express itself on all planes. So the SELF uses the Self-Conscious Mind (Ego) to become completely Manifest on any plane.

There are many egos with the most well known being the ego of the human animal nature (this is the ever dreaded ego that many want to 'abolish' where in reality it should be raised and healed) and then there is the Human Ego and the Spiritual Ego and the Divine Ego (which in this case the ego or self-conscious mind is exactly the same as The Self but now Conscious of itself) and so on and so forth.

Again, Ego is simply the Self-Conscious state on any plane and is usually equated with Mind and the Third aspect of the Logos.


Plenty of nonsense there. Buddhism is a religion suited to an abundant environment where you can just reach out and pluck food, or sit down and find shelter. In a temperate or sub-arctic environment, Siddhattha would have rapidly frozen or starved to death because you need to plan for the future in order to have fuel for a winter fire, or to farm or hunt. Buddhism is the religion of the cow, but it is of feck all use to the sheepdog or the wolf.

This strikes me as an extreme attitude and wonder what the motivation in that attitude stems from.

But Buddhism (I am of course referring to the pure traditions of Buddhism steming from Asia such as Northen Tibetan Buddhism) is probably the only *mainstream* tradition I trust.

And it's more of a tradition then a religion (just like Shintoism in Japan is a tradition, not a religion).

[bilvamiswilliam]

I will not disagree entirely with what had been stated above in post#14. I was merely trying to show to that poster and anyone else who shared the belief that the eastern traditions did in fact view the ego as false, in a philosophical matter not a spiritual manner. It only becomes a spiritual manner when the philosophical gets tied into it with the string of 'Satya' (truth, or better put truth and what is not truth, Satya does not eliminate falsehood per se it merely exposes it for what it is).

As I stated in my first post in response to this interesting topic and discussion is that I view the ego as the central-nervous system of the self which gives rise to identity and the need for identity to identify the world around it.

There is no such thing as higher or lower egos. There is no such thing as higher or lower conscious, there is such a thing as higher or lower forms of intelligence or better put what is gathered and understood as intelligence.

The concept of one ego being greater than the other due to awareness is a false concept that arises out of the conscious notion of intelligence and the presumption that it has true spiritual or even philosophical value. This is not to deny it doesn't have any earthly or limiting value and view that can and may promote the person who possess more intelligence to a higher place on the social-structure of our world but it means truly nothing to the spiritual aspects that many view are the true underpinnings of our existence.

Now regarding Tibetan Buddhism and it being 'main-stream' I would strongly suggest reading the 'Arrow and Spindle' by Samten G. Karmay or any other Tibetologist who has taken an in depth view of such matters. Hardly any religion can be called truly 'organized' or even main stream when you study religions in depth.

[jconnar]

I have been wanting to post on this forum as a lurker for quite sometime

Thank you shinobishaw1982 and member bilvamiswilliam for both sharing your insights.

[shinobishaw1982]

As I stated in my first post in response to this interesting topic and discussion is that I view the ego as the central-nervous system of the self which gives rise to identity and the need for identity to identify the world around it.

I am in agreement with you on this.

There is no such thing as higher or lower egos. There is no such thing as higher or lower conscious, there is such a thing as higher or lower forms of intelligence or better put what is gathered and understood as intelligence.

I think you took my post as a literal 'high' and 'low' which is not what I was referring to, 'high' and 'low' is in conjunction with the state that the ego is in and what the ego is identifying with at the time.

Human beings are composite creatures and we are a microcosm of the universe, meaning we are vehicles of various universal macrocosmic elements, principles, and substances that create the entire human constitution.



Now regarding Tibetan Buddhism and it being 'main-stream' I would strongly suggest reading the 'Arrow and Spindle' by Samten G. Karmay or any other Tibetologist who has taken an in depth view of such matters. Hardly any religion can be called truly 'organized' or even main stream when you study religions in depth.



If you're referring religious institutions as 'Cults' I certainly would agree and for that its very nature should not be mainstream. However I used the word 'mainstream' in contrast with the Esoteric traditions.

There is in fact a world of difference between The Tradition and a Cult (I am using the word in a general sense and not to referred to some 'fringe' group).

Tibetan Buddhism is certainly a tradition but it's maintream because it is 'known' to the population at large and in comparison with other traditions which are more 'private.'

[bilvamiswilliam]

You're most welcome jconnar, and thank you for providing the thread!:D:cool:

Now to address shinobishaw1982 I wasn't so much taking your interpretation as literal 'higher' or 'lower' egos but addressing the issue on hand of how many today view and talk about higher and lower or greater and lesser levels of existence. I being unaware of your exact view and the view of others I tried to present my view in an explainable and justifiable manner.:)

With regards to man being microcosm to the universe or even God and the very same being the macrocosm of us has always been an interesting and intriguing concept both in regards to the material and spiritual, and the materio-spiritual.

Som Raj Gupta consolidates the above stated notion in the term 'cosmotheandric' meaning that 'universe' 'God' and 'man' are not merely intertwined but interrelated take away one of the three and you take away the rest. The cosmotheandric is synonymous in spirit to Martin Heidegger's correlation of the 'four-fold' (earth,sky,divinity,mortals)

I was not thinking of 'cults' in fact I would argue there is no such thing as 'cults' per se. I would say however that there are 'cultish' beliefs and practices within and that come from out of the religious phenomena. Also the terms 'Religion', 'Tradition' 'Esoteric' and 'Exoteric' are so intertwined that they are arguably interrelated to one another.

Terms we talk about and take for granted become far more interesting and complex when we actually look at them and not merely use them. We are always put into a precarious position between the conscious performance of listening and speaking and the 'subconscious' notion of hearing and talking.

[shinobishaw1982]

I agree with your last paragraph, Language is really important and Language changes with the times, one word can mean a dozen things to many different people throughout the ages.

And yes you're most welcome Jconnar, I apologize if I was a bit brash at the beginning of the conversation but it was due to the fact of seeing past threads where people sometimes would post something that is not congruent with the Esoteric Tradition.

[knightofthegrail]

This strikes me as an extreme attitude and wonder what the motivation in that attitude stems from.

"Extreme" in what sense?

As for wondering on motivation. *shrug* Tis the truth. Siddhartha's teachings only work in an abundant tropical environment. Take away regard for the future and how do you get wood in for the winter, or provide food in an environment where there is a harvest season followed by a long harsh winter. Buddhism does not offer "wisdom", it offers a retreat from human relationships and if fully followed would rapidly lead to death in a more adverse environment. :)

[shinobishaw1982]

"Extreme" in what sense?

As for wondering on motivation. *shrug* Tis the truth. Siddhartha's teachings only work in an abundant tropical environment. Take away regard for the future and how do you get wood in for the winter, or provide food in an environment where there is a harvest season followed by a long harsh winter. Buddhism does not offer "wisdom", it offers a retreat from human relationships and if fully followed would rapidly lead to death in a more adverse environment. :)



Extreme in the sense that I can see you have miss the whole point as to what Wisdom is all about, extreme in that it conveys a 'either this or that' attitude.

Your paragraph sounds like a vigilant self-preservational attitude that dismisses Wisdom over 'security.'

This is not a healthy perspective at all, actually this in fact is venturing into Dweller on the Threshold territtory (ironically enough).

[knightofthegrail]

Extreme in the sense that I can see you have miss the whole point as to what Wisdom is all about, extreme in that it conveys a 'either this or that' attitude.

Your paragraph sounds like a vigilant self-preservational attitude that dismisses Wisdom over 'security.'

This is not a healthy perspective at all, actually this in fact is venturing into Dweller on the Threshold territtory (ironically enough).

I see nothing wise in a path that would let you starve or freeze in a winter. You can belly-button-gaze that away if you like, its your arse on the line. :)

[bilvamiswilliam]

Now I am not a Buddhist in fact I do not adhere to any organization of belief. That said I do consider Siddhartha Gautama of the Sakyamuni clan as one of the greatest figures that history has given humanity.

Anyone who reads the stories (fictitious or factual doesn't matter to me as long as truth is conveyed) about Siddhartha or any other Buddhist especially of the 'Mahayana' traditions will have an impression of the 'miraculous' but amongst the miraculous in such works and accounts there are very 'real' and down to 'earth' philosophies contained within.

Remember it's easier to cherry-pick the cherries off the tree than it is to pluck the tree off the cherries:rolleyes::p

[shinobishaw1982]

I see nothing wise in a path that would let you starve or freeze in a winter. You can belly-button-gaze that away if you like, its your arse on the line. :)


It sounds like you're nitpicking a few things from a whole range in that tradition (be it mind I am not a buddhist but respect their tradition a lot). You're obsessing over details and not seeing the big picture as a whole.

I think this will require that you do more research or even better see the motivations that give root to your judgements (it sounds like it stems from a self-preservational bias).

You're grasping at the shadow instead of looking a the substance behind it.

[princessofwands]

I thought the Dweller on the Threshold was the sum total of all the lower-vibrating 'stuff' in our personality.

It sees its own demise coming as we slowly chuck out the garbage within, including some of its most cherished and pet ideas, projects and feelings.

It desperately tries to stop this happening by directing us towards more of that 'stuff' so it can refill our aura with those lower-vibrating things. It magnetises into our lives people on the same vibe as itself so they too can re-energise that inner stuff in us and make it come alive again.

Once the Dweller is vanquished, we will just have a pure, translucent, serene and silent vehicle for the soul to work its magic in the world. And the Dweller knows that it will DIE as we develop into this beautiful Being.

It seems that the inner battle between our Dweller and our Soul is really happening, in most of us. And in the world, between the World Dweller (the dark consciousness that took us over, aeons ago) and the World Soul.

Which one will win? ..... the one we personally and collectively feed, of course.

:eek:

[jesusistruth]

The Demon at the threshold is your 'EGO'.


What do people have to say about this?

While the mind is a part of you and you still have to think, the mind is in most people possessed, or shared with demons (MPD). They live your life through false ambitions and temptations into sin, that is, transgression against one's own soul which is made in the image of God.

I believe you have to confess your sin to be free of the persecution of the past. But you also need to have the right ambition for the future. You have to know what your soul wants, otherwise you will be doing somebody else's will (a demon).

To be frank, I think your soul wants to be saved.

[shinobishaw1982]

Princessofwands

Yes, that is true and that is what eventually leads weak minds to submit to the lower nature and completely neglect the higher aspect of ourselves.


jesusistruth

'Demons' or 'Daemons' is really outdated language that many western religions use, in reality they should be called 'Shades' or 'shadows.'

They are related to imagination, the past, memory, and the psyche....reflections of our lower nature.

Of course let's not forget the self-deception of people is also a possibility.

[jesusistruth]

Princessofwands

Yes, that is true and that is what eventually leads weak minds to submit to the lower nature and completely neglect the higher aspect of ourselves.


jesusistruth

'Demons' or 'Daemons' is really outdated language that many western religions use, in reality they should be called 'Shades' or 'shadows.'

They are related to imagination, the past, memory, and the psyche....reflections of our lower nature.

Of course let's not forget the self-deception of people is also a possibility.

Perhaps one could say Satan is the one playing the flute of the lower vibrations. We are merely vessels to express the inspiration of different spirits.

[1331]

The Demon at the threshold is your 'EGO'.


What do people have to say about this?

From the movie Revolver:

“One thing I've learned in the last seven years: in every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former.”

“The greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look.”
—Julius Caesar 75 BC

“The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent.”
—Fundamentals of Chess 1883

“First rule of business, protect your investment.”
—Etiquette of the Banker 1775

“There is no avoiding war, it can only be postponed to the advantage of your enemy.”
—Niccolo Machiavelli 1502

“The only real enemy to have ever existed, is an eternal one.”
—The Road to Suicide, pg 1, line 1

“Your friends are close, but your enemy is closer.”
—The Road to Suicide, pg 1, line 2

Jake Green: There is something about yourself that you don't know. Something that you will deny even exists, until it's too late to do anything about it. It's the only reason you get up in the morning. The only reason you suffer the shitty puss, the blood, the sweat and the tears. This is because you want people to know how good, attractive, generous, funny, wild and clever you really are. Fear or revere me, but please, think I'm special. We share an addiction. We're approval junkies. We're all in it for the slap on the back and the gold watch. The hip-hip-hoo-fuckin' rah. Look at the clever boy with the badge, polishing his trophy. Shine on you crazy diamond, because we're just monkeys wrapped in suits, begging for the approval of others.

Jake Green: Oh, I know you're still there... cause I can feel you dying. I can hear you tapping me... for a little nutrition. Now who's looking for a fix? It gets a little tight in here, do you? Well, you're not wrong... cause the walls are moving in. No food here. Not today, sunshine. My eyes are open and the restaurant's closed. Jog on. Slide off. Find someone else to fill your pipe. Someone, who won't see you coming... or know, when you're there.

Avi: The greatest con, that he ever pulled... was making you believe... that he is you.


Metallica. Sad but true:

Hey
I'm your life
I'm the one who takes you there
Hey
I'm your life
I'm the one who cares
They
They betray
I'm your only true friend now
They
They'll betray
I'm forever there

I'm your dream, make you real
I'm your eyes when you must steal
I'm your pain when you can't feel
Sad but true

I'm your dream, mind astray
I'm your eyes while you're away
I'm your pain while you repay
You know it's sad but true

You
You're my mask
You're my cover, my shelter
You
You're my mask
You're the one who's blamed
Do
Do my work
Do my dirty work, scapegoat
Do
Do my deeds
For you're the one who's shamed

I'm your dream, make you real
I'm your eyes when you must steal
I'm your pain when you can't feel
Sad but true

I'm your dream, mind astray
I'm your eyes while you're away
I'm your pain while you repay
You know it's sad but true

I'm your dream
I'm your eyes
I'm your pain
I'm your dream
I'm your eyes
I'm your pain
You know it's sad but true

Hate
I'm your hate
I'm your hate when you want love
Pay
Pay the price
Pay for nothing's fair

Hey
I'm your life
I'm the one who took you there
Hey
I'm your life
And I no longer care

I'm your dream, make you real
I'm your eyes when you must steal
I'm your pain when you can't feel
Sad but true

I'm your truth, telling lies
I'm your reasoned alibis
I'm inside, open your eyes
I'm you

Sad but true


:D

[jconnar]

To be frank, I think your soul wants to be saved.

Thank you everyone for your posts, its a very interesting subject.

I do want my soul to be saved. It seems like the only thing worthwhile to me. Everything else is vanity under the Sun, everything else has a beginning and an end.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.

[shinobishaw1982]

The Adversary is really complex symbolism because it has more then one meaning in the microcosm and macrocosm.

In the Micro The Adversary is our lower nature (Dweller on the Threshold) that should not be rejected but raised to be healed by our higher nature.

But in the Macrocosm the Adversary takes on quite an active role as the lower nature of the planetary globes themselves (whether you want to call it Astral Light or something else does not matter) and it reflects back what is already in us.

This is not an abstract situation but an actual experience (in that place of exit, meaning when one enters the plane just above the physical).

But the Adversary can also mean the villanization of certain abstract potencies (such as that represented by Saturnus of the romans etc.), so go figure......

[thisisnow]

My own feeling is the Demon on The Threshold is too beset with theory, analysis, pigeon-holing and intellect, posturing and generally being a sore arse and, consequently, should be booted into touch....certainly should not be invited in for tea and sticky buns over which to agree on whichever word is more apt in discussing levels in which to hide from its metaphorical spectre.

[shinobishaw1982]

The word 'Demon' is not used in the term and gives it a 'fantastical' connotation.

Dweller is the better term for it (as that is how it is said) because it is more in line with what that concept entails since it is the 'though-form' that dwells per se in the psyche of man. What Eckhart Tolle calls the 'Pain Body.'

I am not trying to be a 'know-it-all' here, but I do feel like the terms should be used correctly. Often on the Internet you see so much triviality and poor execution of Occult wording that it gives a false perception as to what it really is.

Though the word is no longer truly Occult because it was given a definite meaning a long time ago.

[thisisnow]

Though the word is no longer truly Occult because it was given a definite meaning a long time ago.[/QUOTE]

[thisisnow]

Yeah an arse is still an arse

[nergal]

"(Y)e blind idiot, ye noxious Azathoth shal arise from ye middle of ye World where all is Chaos & Destruction where He hath bubbl'd and blasphem'd at Ye centre which is of All Things, which is to say Infinity...."

[jdeadevil]

I see the ego as the central-nervous system of the self it gives us identification and awareness.


No it doesn't. It gives someone the ability to boast about how cool they are, even though they're probably not.

[thisisnow]

Apologies the last post was a problem of hitting a wrong button in trying to reply to a quote elsewhere but while we are on the subject I do feel that the apparently spiritual endeavour (in some quarters) of transcending ego is at best wrong-footed and at worst downright dangerous.