Important question - please read

[adimon]

Do any forum members have friends or family who were in the buildings or on the planes that crashed?

If so, it would help towards gaining a truer picture of what happened. Thanks.

[dave52]

I agree... I am currently in the position where the NPT makes a lot of sense to me, as does some form of DEW and most definately a large dose of TV Fakery. I have to be honest and say that of all the "high-profile" 9/11 celebs, Nico Haipt makes the most sense to me. This, of course, would be somewhat blown out of the water if enough credible, honest and down to earth witnesses came forward and said that they definately saw planes.

I am tired of seeing the same (often edited) footage again and again.

[adimon]

Looks like we're in a similar position. I'm still leaning more towards demolition or collapse than NPT, but wish I could rule out NPT altogether. It keeps nagging me! Best of luck.

[freedomnonfighter]

Looks like we're in a similar position. I'm still leaning more towards demolition or collapse than NPT, but wish I could rule out NPT altogether. It keeps nagging me! Best of luck.

How is demolition/collapse not 'included' with NPT? :confused:

[dave52]

Demolition is definately included in NPT. The towers came down in a very suspicious manner that day - therefore we are probably talking about some form of demolition. The reason I lean towards Directed Energy Weapons for WTC1 and 2 is that it doesn't look like your average demolition. WTC7, on the other hand, does look like a standard demolition to me.

[adimon]

Sorry that was poorly phrased - I meant that I was swaying toward demolition or collapse after a plane crash, as opposed to NPT.

Lets keep discussion of NPT to the appropriate threads. I want to see if anyone here knows anyone who was in the buildings or the planes. Cheers.

[adimon]

I've still not found anyone with the relevant information. Has anyone else been more successful?

[megafish33]

Do any forum members have friends or family who were in the buildings or on the planes that crashed?

If so, it would help towards gaining a truer picture of what happened. Thanks.

What do you need to know? We had a friend of the family who was working there at the time but 9/11 took his life.

[adimon]

What do you need to know? We had a friend of the family who was working there at the time but 9/11 took his life.

I'm sorry to hear that. Which building was he in? The reason I posted the question was simply because I'd never heard from anyone who knew people that were onboard the planes or in the buildings. :(

[megafish33]

I'm sorry to hear that. Which building was he in? The reason I posted the question was simply because I'd never heard from anyone who knew people that were onboard the planes or in the buildings. :(

He was in 1WTC(North Tower).

Yeah, he was really close with our east-coast bunch, considered family by all of us. :) One of those people that you really shed a tear(or more) for because after they're gone all you can think about is their smile, jokes, laughter, vacations with them, etc. It's been almost a decade but I'm still bummed... he didn't get to see me really grow up. :(

Yeah, I haven't heard much from people who knew those in the planes. I assumed you can't use your cell in a plane, although they were probably not very concerned with that after they changed course, all things considered.

[adimon]

Yes you're actually the first person I've come across who knew anyone in WTC1 or 2. I'm still yet to meet anyone with friends or relatives on the planes or in the Pentagon, but we're dealing with a much smaller group so it's not surprising. Hopefully I will find some accounts one day.

Sorry again to hear of your loss. All the best.

[megafish33]

Yes you're actually the first person I've come across who knew anyone in WTC1 or 2. I'm still yet to meet anyone with friends or relatives on the planes or in the Pentagon, but we're dealing with a much smaller group so it's not surprising. Hopefully I will find some accounts one day.

Sorry again to hear of your loss. All the best.

Thank you kind sir,

Yeah, it is a small group. Just curious, but what are you hoping to discover? Just some first hand accounts of what went down that morning?

Hope you get your info.

[adimon]

All info is useful in some regard. I suppose if I meet people who had friends/relatives in the planes its a little bit more evidence against NPT.

I've still not seen NPT decisively debunked, though I'm not a proponent either.

[megafish33]

I've still not seen NPT decisively debunked, though I'm not a proponent either.

If the NPT is correct that would mean that everyone that got on the original flights would have had to be killed elsewhere... sure, I know it's possible, but evidence of such a thing is sort of lacking... no?

[adimon]

Yes that is true. Like I said, I'm no proponent, but I've not seen NPT debunked conclusively yet. If the perps went to all that effort to put demolitions or bombs in the buildings, why use planes at all?

On the 'mathematical approach' thread, I want to find a way of calculating what would happen to the plane because the CNN clip appears to show the plane going entirely inside WTC2 before any explosion occurs.

Hmm...

[ukor]

Yes that is true. Like I said, I'm no proponent, but I've not seen NPT debunked conclusively yet. If the perps went to all that effort to put demolitions or bombs in the buildings, why use planes at all?


The purpose of the planes was to disguise the inside nature of the demolition.
You don't access high security buildings like the WTC complex on a whim, and with a Bush family business in charge of security. The airplane attacks diverted attention from all that by making it seem as if the collapses were caused solely by external factors.

On the 'mathematical approach' thread, I want to find a way of calculating what would happen to the plane because the CNN clip appears to show the plane going entirely inside WTC2 before any explosion occurs.

Hmm...

You need to recall that he plane shredded its own length into the building in 1/8th of a second - with the fuel travelling at the same speed. Even instantaneous explosions occur over time, and petroleum products are not in the even in the same class as high explosives which crack along at propagation rates of 27,000ft/s with nothing but a near instant bright flash. That's why Hollywood always portrays explosives as petrol explosions because they're slow and colourful.

Too many slow motion video viewings can slew the perception of what happened.

[cruise4]

Hi Adimon, why not get over to:

http://www.wearechange.org/.

As they are in touch with many victims family members etc. They can maybe direct you towards the evidence you are seeking.

[adimon]

Cheers Cruise4.

[liltroofer]

"I've not seen NPT debunked conclusively yet. If the perps went to all that effort to put demolitions or bombs in the buildings, why use planes at all?"

excellent question. my favorite NPT head-scratcher is this one:

Which is more rewarding to purchase: 4 Boeings that will be destroyed, or the media, which will be in your grasp for years?

on the side, i am reluctant to talk about what i know because of so much evidence for people getting in trouble for it. i am not certain that the Internet is such a safe playground of anonymity that it's made out to be. hackers work for the government and if they want to find out who anyone is, they will.

i have been hoping for a safe, anonymous place for me to tell my story about 9/11 but haven't found it online yet. i am sure others who know the TRUE truth are equally reluctant to just step forward, even digitally.

[cruise4]

I think you should post your story. Maybe the best protection is to go public on the internet because then its out and they can't put the genie back in the bottle, which removes their reason to do anything. For example Sibel Edwards.
If she can do it, I'm sure you can. We cannot mutually help one another if our first refuge is fear.

[weston white]

Why would they not have to purchase them both in addition to many other aspects? Say they did not use any planes, where are the dead passengers at, are their family members all just playing along, then? Did they just land the planes and then line them all up and shoot them to death and then dumped them in some classified mass grave?

[liltroofer]

Zowie! I'm new here and already being engaged in a pointed discussion!

To answer your questions:
I doubt family members would want to play along with their dead. It's most certainly secretive murder. Is secret murder really the most surprising aspect of NPT to you? Most murderers do like to kind of ... remain hidden and all.

"Did they just land the planes and then line them all up and shoot them to death and then dumped them in some classified mass grave?"

Well, supposing no planes actually hit the towers, but most people believe that, all other tricks pale in comparison. Ergo, NPT is the key. If NPT is proven, all the other tricks - documented rather than witnessed - are easy to pull off through media manipulation. Right? Heck, I dunno!

[weston white]

That is the thing why not just crash the planes into the buildings via the fly-by-wire systems? So much more easier, faster, and safer, from the criminal side of the equation (less people involved and their claims become accounted for through witnesses). Somebody, has to be able to account for 4 lost planes, so that means if they did not crash them they would have to perhaps sink them into a deep ocean someplace or take them to Area 51 and lock them up forever... Perhaps the missing 2.3 trillion dollars that came up missing just prior to 9/11 was use to pay the fees attributed to conduct 9/11 and hush the key participants up.

[liltroofer]

"if they did not crash them they would have to perhaps sink them"

the question is, how were they sunk?

here are some options:

a) during takeover of radar controls, cloak their signals, fly them to their location, destroy them, dismantle them, sell them

b) never fly them. just register the flights. repeat above

c) or here's the easiest: re-paint, re-register, release

just some ideas. otherwise, it could get more complicated if you want, but those seem like the easiest to me.

[liltroofer]

"fly-by-wire systems? So much more easier, faster, and safer"

well, that's true, and that's my second guess.

but to me that actually seems *more* risky.

just explode the building and tell people what caused it. they'll be so dazzled, that footage that repeats what happened will be too hard to crack.

when in doubt:
follow the money (cheaper to involve as few planes as possible)
never underestimate herd mentality ("if New Yorkers think it happened ... the whole world will think it happened")

[weston white]

The problem with that is nearly every part of the planes have their usage logged and are serialized.

Even still the passengers and crews whereabouts still have to be accounted for.

I think using fly-by-wire would be less risky then any of the other options, being that there is zero chance of discovery at a future date as they planes were actually crashed where they were originally stated. Fly-by-wire would be no less dangerous then piloting it manually, and I bet it is actually even safer, through the use of a preloaded path route that runs the plan on an autopilot software program.

[liltroofer]

I hope we're still actually on-topic here. I feel I've strayed, but maybe that's the nature of this beast. haha

Okay,

"The problem with that is nearly every part of the planes have their usage logged and are serialized."

This starts to really get to the difference between NoPlaners and PlaneHuggers I guess: NPT is so immense, it basically dictates that all the official numbers, pictures, serialized stuff etc. etc. is bogus. Therefore, as a NPT "I get to believe what I want to believe dammit!"

On the other hand, Plane Huggers will glom on to the new bits that support them. It's like the difference between old and young.

NPT is the old curmudgeon shaking his fist and saying "by golly, coverage was better when I was watching it. you could see all the holes in their theory!"

PHT are like the young kid going, "aw gramps. you worry too much. enjoy the new story. it's better than that old stuff anyway."

On the other hand, NPT also seem to be the most skeptical of anything on the Internet saying it's real. So maybe, this is just cynical of me, but to me when someone has a home recording of live footage that doesn't match the Official Story's Revised Footage, and the first shows less evidence for a plane, and the other shows more evidence for a plane, and that seems to be the primary difference between them ... well ... I mean, it does make me wonder.

"Even still the passengers and crews whereabouts still have to be accounted for."

Wait, so 'Fly-by-wire' Theory argues for an auto-pilot of a plane filled with passengers? Doesn't that refute the idea that the planes were just non-piloted missiles? I think live footage of weird blobs and stuff that were covered up in later videos sort of explains that there were other things at work than planes.

[weston white]

Why would the planes not have been taken over during mid-flight and then crashed?

But that is something I have yet to see verified, how many people have come forward claiming they had family members lost in the plane crashes the only one I know of was that guy that works at the Pentagon whom claimed his wife called him, his wife and son was on the plane that happened to also crash into the Pentagon... that seemed like a wildly strange story... as well there only seems to be IIRC 4 families that are publicly claiming lost family members from the entire WTC, though I have also heard that there was about 100 families whom claim lost relatives from the WTC, but they do not want anything do to with an investigation into 9/11. So this seems very strange to me.

As well there seemed to be a lot of military related personal as passengers on the planes and a very low passenger count on all the planes, so all of these things to seem very fishy when you begin accounting for them all... way to much just to be coincidences.

[liltroofer]

"I have also heard that there was about 100 families whom claim lost relatives from the WTC, but they do not want anything do to with an investigation into 9/11. So this seems very strange to me."

Yes yes. I think you are on to something. Again, sorry if this is off topic but what if those 'family members' - who can hardly be said to be 'going public' - rather they are hidden - have vanished precisely because they were people wanting to leave the operation?

"Well, I like the war, but I'm not so sure about this 9/11 thing ..."

whack!

"Let's see... what plane do we say he was on?"

[adimon]

"I've not seen NPT debunked conclusively yet. If the perps went to all that effort to put demolitions or bombs in the buildings, why use planes at all?"

excellent question. my favorite NPT head-scratcher is this one:

Which is more rewarding to purchase: 4 Boeings that will be destroyed, or the media, which will be in your grasp for years?

on the side, i am reluctant to talk about what i know because of so much evidence for people getting in trouble for it. i am not certain that the Internet is such a safe playground of anonymity that it's made out to be. hackers work for the government and if they want to find out who anyone is, they will.

i have been hoping for a safe, anonymous place for me to tell my story about 9/11 but haven't found it online yet. i am sure others who know the TRUE truth are equally reluctant to just step forward, even digitally.

I think you should post your story. Maybe the best protection is to go public on the internet because then its out and they can't put the genie back in the bottle, which removes their reason to do anything. For example Sibel Edwards.
If she can do it, I'm sure you can. We cannot mutually help one another if our first refuge is fear.

I agree wholeheartedly with cruise4. I implore you to share with other truthseekers.

Thanks

[neutron flux]

Sorry Adimon I can't answer or add any data to your question but I'd thought I'd just post my doubts on the NPT.

1. Logistics. If the NPT was true there would be many people aware of the plan. You would have animators, producers, cameramen, helicopter pilots and many more behind the scenes that would have no problem murdering their own citizens. Now, I know the people at the top have no conscience or empathy of doing such a thing, but people who generally work in the media as cameramen and the like are just trying to earn a crust and I'm sure would not even think of carrying out such a heinous plan.

Plus, there are too many variables for the plan to go awry. It would be so much easier to just install Global Hawk tech into the planes and overide the controls. You could even gas the passengers through the air vents so there's no trouble (if that was such the case, did the plane that was shot down have a gas malfunction, and that's why the passengers were trying to control it?)

2. The pentagon. If this sophisticated plan of the NPT was true, then why didn't they perform the same stunt with the Pentagon? Why haven't they come up with video tape of a Boeing hitting the Pentagon?

3. Video's etc. It seems rather illogical for the many people in NY that day that have video cameras to not have footage of nothing hitting the towers; or even a witness to testify that no plane hit. And again you have the logistics of faking videos from all manner of angles. Too time consuming and too many variables to slip up. I mean after all we are talking of the PTB that employ Game Theory.

4. This footage:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4806/911planeum1.gif

Now if there's no plane, then the cameraman has to time his pan so his camera is facing the explosion at the prescise moment it happens. That would require knowledge of the exact time of detonation to the second, and the cameraman having no conscience of taping such a thing.


In summary, it was easier to use planes.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/884/250pxwtcdebrisoz6oe8.jpg

[adimon]

Neutron Flux - I totally agree with everyting you say, but of course to debunk it we have to prove that planes hit, not that it's unlikely they didn't.

My biggest problem with NPT as you say is the number of recordings.

My biggest problem with planes theories is the footage where no crumpling occurs - and on the CNN 'ghost plane' footage, the plane is all the way inside before an explosion occurs. It even looks like the hole seals itself!

P.S> Nice part of the world, Weymouth. Probably my favourite place in the SW (along with Croyde in Devon)

[neutron flux]

Neutron Flux - I totally agree with everyting you say, but of course to debunk it we have to prove that planes hit, not that it's unlikely they didn't.

My biggest problem with NPT as you say is the number of recordings.

My biggest problem with planes theories is the footage where no crumpling occurs - and on the CNN 'ghost plane' footage, the plane is all the way inside before an explosion occurs. It even looks like the hole seals itself!

I was thinking maybe the CNN footage was distributed to plant the seeds of this theory as an attempt by Cointelpro to muddy the waters. :confused:


P.S> Nice part of the world, Weymouth. Probably my favourite place in the SW (along with Croyde in Devon)

It's not bad. I have a nice view of Portland from my window. :):cool: