sunyatta60
30-11-2007, 09:03 AM
A MATHEMATICAL PROOF OF GOD
INTRODUCTION, GODEL'S INCOMPLETENESS THEOREM:
Jesus said, If those pulling you say to you, 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky,' the birds of the sky will go before you. Or if they say that it is beneath the ground, the fish of the sea will go in, preceding you. And the kingdom of God is within you and outside you. Whoever knows himself will find this and when you know yourselves you will know that you are children of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you are in poverty and you are the poverty. Thomas 3
Kurt Godel was crazy as a loon. One tire in the dirt. He thought there was magic poison gasses coming from his refrigerator not described by reason. Beyond the ability of math and science to explain. ESP kinda stuff. So, he set out to prove, with the most formal math/logic we know of, that it was possible. That's how crazy he was, who but a crazy man would believe such a thing, or make the effort. And the demonstration that he was also the greatest mathematician on earth, is that he succeeded. It's called Godel's Incompleteness Theorm (1931). The way he proved the Theorm is called Godel's Proof.
He didn't prove that there was poison gasses coming from his refrigerator, but he did prove that there is always the Unknowable. Always things that math and logic, (and things that use them like almighty science), can't deal with. All axiomatic systems are that way, not just math and logic, but computers and things that use DNA. .
Math is eternally incapable of describing the Universe. But it is capable of proving it's eternally incapable of describing the Universe. (Sounds like something Jesus or Buddha would say...)
Hermann Weyl: " We are less certain than ever about the ultimate foundations of (logic and) mathematics. Like everybody and everything in the world today, we have our ``crisis.'' We have had it for nearly fifty years. Outwardly it does not seem to hamper our daily work, and yet I for one confess that it has had a considerable practical influence on my mathematical life: it directed my interests to fields I considered relatively ``safe,'' and has been a constant drain on the enthusiasm and determination with which I pursued my research work. This experience is probably shared by other mathematicians who are not indifferent to what their scientific endeavors mean in the context of man's whole caring and knowing, suffering and creative existence in the world."
John von Neumann: "...there have been within the experience of people now living at least three serious crises... There have been two such crises in physics---namely, the conceptual soul-searching connected with the discovery of relativity and the conceptual difficulties connected with discoveries in quantum theory... The third crisis was in mathematics. It was a very serious conceptual crisis, dealing with rigor and the proper way to carry out a correct mathematical proof. In view of the earlier notions of the absolute rigor of mathematics, it is surprising that such a thing could have happened, and even more surprising that it could have happened in these latter days when miracles are not supposed to take place. Yet it did happen."
Gregory J. Chaitin: "At the time of its discovery, Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem was a great shock and caused much uncertainty and depression among mathematicians sensitive to foundational issues, since it seemed to pull the rug out from under mathematical certainty, objectivity, and rigor. Also, its proof was considered to be extremely difficult and recondite. With the passage of time the situation has been reversed. A great many different proofs of Gödel's theorem are now known, and the result is now considered easy to prove and almost obvious: It is equivalent to the unsolvability of the halting problem..."
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/georgia.html
THE UNKNOWABLE UNIVERSE AND A PROOF OF GOD:
Jesus said: The images are revealed to man, and the light which is in them is hidden in the image of the light of the Father. He will reveal himself, and his image is hidden by his light. Thomas 83
Stuff like math and logic and legal systems are called axiomatic systems.You have these things you take on faith, axioms which are like laws, and rules like court proceedings, for determnining truth or falsity, guilt or innocence. Using the legal analogy, there are always cases that will come up, that our laws and court proceedings can't determine guilt or innocence. Nothing to do with not having enough evidence, but a matter of whether what happened actually broke the law.
Now, the big arguement against Godel's Proof is that if one assumed an infinite number of axioms, if you take an infinite number of things on pure faith, you may be able to solve the incompleteness, know the Unknowable, and describe the Universe with math/science. Turns out that dog won't hunt. The following couple papers demonstrate that even if you take an infinite number of things on faith in your math, in a universe that includes the Quantum Theory, like this one, it's still eternally Unknowable. A side benefit is that the Unknowable "contigent" part they are talking about is where Free Will happens. Free Will is Unknowable too.
On the intelligibility of the universe and the notions of simplicity, complexity and irreducibility
Gregory Chaitin, IBM Research Division
Well, if you believe in quantum physics, then Nature plays dice, and that generates complexity, an infinite amount of it, for example, as frozen accidents, mutations that are preserved in our DNA. So at this time most scientists would bet that the universe has infinite complexity, like O does. But then the world is incomprehensible, or at least a large part of it will always remain so, the accidental part, all those frozen accidents, the contingent part.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/bonn.html
Gödel and the End of Physics
Stephen Hawking
Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. I'm now glad that our search for understanding will never come to an end, and that we will always have the challenge of new discovery. Without it, we would stagnate. Gödel’s theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians.
http://www.physics.sfasu.edu/astro/news/20030308news/StephenHawking20030308.htm
So, part of the Universe, the Kingdom of the Father, will always, eternally be Unknowable. If we choose to define the Father as partly being that Unknowable, we have proved the Father with formal math. Can you choose to use the name "Easter Rabbit" for the Unknowable Father of the Universe? Sure, but you can't make any claim about proving brightly colored eggs.
After all, it's also common sense, if some of the Universe, the Kingdom of the Father, is always Unknowable, it stands to reason any Father of it would be too.
THE LIVING UNIVERSE AND THE BREATH OF GOD
Jesus said: He who blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and he who blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven. Thomas 45
If math science is eternally incapable of describing the Universe/Kingdom of the Father, it's safe to say it can't build it or make it run. Yet it runs. If you write all the equations of mathematical physics on pieces of paper and scatter them on the kitchen floor, they won't get up and dance. Yet, the Universe dances. This is a big clue somethings up. How does it work?
It's the Breath of God.
In both Greek and Hebrew, the words for "spirit" and "breath" are the same thing. Not a coincidence, everything that breathed also was alive and had a life force, a spirit. Everywhere in the Bible you see spirit, you can substitute breath or life force. The Holy Spirit is the Breath of God, the "Living" part of the "Living Father".
Jesus said it's no big deal if you meanmouth the Father, or the sons of Adam, but if you mean mouth the Holy Spirit, how the Universe works, it'll hit you side the head with a 2x4.
SUMMARY AND THE GRAND ULTIMATE THEORY OF EVERYTHING
His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come? It will not come while people watch for it; they will not say: Look, here it is, or: Look, there it is; but the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and men do not see it. Thomas 113
Other similar Unknowable things have been derived from Godel's Theorm since 1931...
Godel's Incompleteness Theorm - In any axiomatic system of interest, there will always be theorems that are Unknowable. There will always be things that can't be described by math/science/etc.
Turing's Halting Problem - No computer program can be proven bug free until you actually run it. Even if the math/science/etc. worked, the human/computer doing the math/science can't be relied on to do it correctly.
Chaitin's Algorithmic Information Theory - The shortest, most compressed, most "zipped up, most random, highest entropy, most Occam's Razor way of saying anything is eternally Unknowable. Even if the math/logic/etc. worked, which it doesn't, and the human/computer doing the math/running the program, could be relied on, which they can't, the most concise, Occam's Razor, Grand Ultimate Theory of Everything, way of saying anything will never ever be known, no matter what.
Something exists that is eternally beyond the reach of science, {Really? Who says so?} and if, like Jesus, you call it God, then you have proven {Naming it does not make it so.} the existance of God with the most formal, picky mathematics in existance. As "proved" as anything ever has been in all of human existance. After all, whether one agrees that there's the Living Father that explains everything, at least you can't prove it's eternally incapable of it like you can for science.
INTRODUCTION, GODEL'S INCOMPLETENESS THEOREM:
Jesus said, If those pulling you say to you, 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky,' the birds of the sky will go before you. Or if they say that it is beneath the ground, the fish of the sea will go in, preceding you. And the kingdom of God is within you and outside you. Whoever knows himself will find this and when you know yourselves you will know that you are children of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you are in poverty and you are the poverty. Thomas 3
Kurt Godel was crazy as a loon. One tire in the dirt. He thought there was magic poison gasses coming from his refrigerator not described by reason. Beyond the ability of math and science to explain. ESP kinda stuff. So, he set out to prove, with the most formal math/logic we know of, that it was possible. That's how crazy he was, who but a crazy man would believe such a thing, or make the effort. And the demonstration that he was also the greatest mathematician on earth, is that he succeeded. It's called Godel's Incompleteness Theorm (1931). The way he proved the Theorm is called Godel's Proof.
He didn't prove that there was poison gasses coming from his refrigerator, but he did prove that there is always the Unknowable. Always things that math and logic, (and things that use them like almighty science), can't deal with. All axiomatic systems are that way, not just math and logic, but computers and things that use DNA. .
Math is eternally incapable of describing the Universe. But it is capable of proving it's eternally incapable of describing the Universe. (Sounds like something Jesus or Buddha would say...)
Hermann Weyl: " We are less certain than ever about the ultimate foundations of (logic and) mathematics. Like everybody and everything in the world today, we have our ``crisis.'' We have had it for nearly fifty years. Outwardly it does not seem to hamper our daily work, and yet I for one confess that it has had a considerable practical influence on my mathematical life: it directed my interests to fields I considered relatively ``safe,'' and has been a constant drain on the enthusiasm and determination with which I pursued my research work. This experience is probably shared by other mathematicians who are not indifferent to what their scientific endeavors mean in the context of man's whole caring and knowing, suffering and creative existence in the world."
John von Neumann: "...there have been within the experience of people now living at least three serious crises... There have been two such crises in physics---namely, the conceptual soul-searching connected with the discovery of relativity and the conceptual difficulties connected with discoveries in quantum theory... The third crisis was in mathematics. It was a very serious conceptual crisis, dealing with rigor and the proper way to carry out a correct mathematical proof. In view of the earlier notions of the absolute rigor of mathematics, it is surprising that such a thing could have happened, and even more surprising that it could have happened in these latter days when miracles are not supposed to take place. Yet it did happen."
Gregory J. Chaitin: "At the time of its discovery, Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem was a great shock and caused much uncertainty and depression among mathematicians sensitive to foundational issues, since it seemed to pull the rug out from under mathematical certainty, objectivity, and rigor. Also, its proof was considered to be extremely difficult and recondite. With the passage of time the situation has been reversed. A great many different proofs of Gödel's theorem are now known, and the result is now considered easy to prove and almost obvious: It is equivalent to the unsolvability of the halting problem..."
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/georgia.html
THE UNKNOWABLE UNIVERSE AND A PROOF OF GOD:
Jesus said: The images are revealed to man, and the light which is in them is hidden in the image of the light of the Father. He will reveal himself, and his image is hidden by his light. Thomas 83
Stuff like math and logic and legal systems are called axiomatic systems.You have these things you take on faith, axioms which are like laws, and rules like court proceedings, for determnining truth or falsity, guilt or innocence. Using the legal analogy, there are always cases that will come up, that our laws and court proceedings can't determine guilt or innocence. Nothing to do with not having enough evidence, but a matter of whether what happened actually broke the law.
Now, the big arguement against Godel's Proof is that if one assumed an infinite number of axioms, if you take an infinite number of things on pure faith, you may be able to solve the incompleteness, know the Unknowable, and describe the Universe with math/science. Turns out that dog won't hunt. The following couple papers demonstrate that even if you take an infinite number of things on faith in your math, in a universe that includes the Quantum Theory, like this one, it's still eternally Unknowable. A side benefit is that the Unknowable "contigent" part they are talking about is where Free Will happens. Free Will is Unknowable too.
On the intelligibility of the universe and the notions of simplicity, complexity and irreducibility
Gregory Chaitin, IBM Research Division
Well, if you believe in quantum physics, then Nature plays dice, and that generates complexity, an infinite amount of it, for example, as frozen accidents, mutations that are preserved in our DNA. So at this time most scientists would bet that the universe has infinite complexity, like O does. But then the world is incomprehensible, or at least a large part of it will always remain so, the accidental part, all those frozen accidents, the contingent part.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/bonn.html
Gödel and the End of Physics
Stephen Hawking
Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. I'm now glad that our search for understanding will never come to an end, and that we will always have the challenge of new discovery. Without it, we would stagnate. Gödel’s theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians.
http://www.physics.sfasu.edu/astro/news/20030308news/StephenHawking20030308.htm
So, part of the Universe, the Kingdom of the Father, will always, eternally be Unknowable. If we choose to define the Father as partly being that Unknowable, we have proved the Father with formal math. Can you choose to use the name "Easter Rabbit" for the Unknowable Father of the Universe? Sure, but you can't make any claim about proving brightly colored eggs.
After all, it's also common sense, if some of the Universe, the Kingdom of the Father, is always Unknowable, it stands to reason any Father of it would be too.
THE LIVING UNIVERSE AND THE BREATH OF GOD
Jesus said: He who blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and he who blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven. Thomas 45
If math science is eternally incapable of describing the Universe/Kingdom of the Father, it's safe to say it can't build it or make it run. Yet it runs. If you write all the equations of mathematical physics on pieces of paper and scatter them on the kitchen floor, they won't get up and dance. Yet, the Universe dances. This is a big clue somethings up. How does it work?
It's the Breath of God.
In both Greek and Hebrew, the words for "spirit" and "breath" are the same thing. Not a coincidence, everything that breathed also was alive and had a life force, a spirit. Everywhere in the Bible you see spirit, you can substitute breath or life force. The Holy Spirit is the Breath of God, the "Living" part of the "Living Father".
Jesus said it's no big deal if you meanmouth the Father, or the sons of Adam, but if you mean mouth the Holy Spirit, how the Universe works, it'll hit you side the head with a 2x4.
SUMMARY AND THE GRAND ULTIMATE THEORY OF EVERYTHING
His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come? It will not come while people watch for it; they will not say: Look, here it is, or: Look, there it is; but the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and men do not see it. Thomas 113
Other similar Unknowable things have been derived from Godel's Theorm since 1931...
Godel's Incompleteness Theorm - In any axiomatic system of interest, there will always be theorems that are Unknowable. There will always be things that can't be described by math/science/etc.
Turing's Halting Problem - No computer program can be proven bug free until you actually run it. Even if the math/science/etc. worked, the human/computer doing the math/science can't be relied on to do it correctly.
Chaitin's Algorithmic Information Theory - The shortest, most compressed, most "zipped up, most random, highest entropy, most Occam's Razor way of saying anything is eternally Unknowable. Even if the math/logic/etc. worked, which it doesn't, and the human/computer doing the math/running the program, could be relied on, which they can't, the most concise, Occam's Razor, Grand Ultimate Theory of Everything, way of saying anything will never ever be known, no matter what.
Something exists that is eternally beyond the reach of science, {Really? Who says so?} and if, like Jesus, you call it God, then you have proven {Naming it does not make it so.} the existance of God with the most formal, picky mathematics in existance. As "proved" as anything ever has been in all of human existance. After all, whether one agrees that there's the Living Father that explains everything, at least you can't prove it's eternally incapable of it like you can for science.