Who considers black magic/occultism Satanism?

[seer74]

Well? Keeping in mind that Occultism is the practice of keeping the knowledge secret, not divulging it. Occult means hidden.

[drael]

I disagree with you defination of occult.

From wikipedia:

The word occult comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden".[/B]

The word has many uses in the English language, popularly meaning "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable",[3][4] usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes popularly taken to mean "knowledge meant only for certain people" or "knowledge that must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.

Personally i am offended by this association between satanism/black magick and the occult, but it is a common misinterpretation of mainstream christianity, so i guess its a valid question. Its a deep shame so many people judge before learning, or simply take what is spoon fed. It reminds me of so many horrors of human history caused by judgement. I hope for a brighter future.

[seer74]

I disagree with you defination of occult.

From wikipedia:

The word occult comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden".[/B]

The word has many uses in the English language, popularly meaning "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable",[3][4] usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes popularly taken to mean "knowledge meant only for certain people" or "knowledge that must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.

Personally i am offended by this association between satanism/black magick and the occult, but it is a common misinterpretation of mainstream christianity, so i guess its a valid question. Its a deep shame so many people judge before learning, or simply take what is spoon fed. It reminds me of so many horrors of human history caused by judgement. I hope for a brighter future.

"Occult" means hidden that is all occult means. occultism is the practice of keeping it hidden. the practice of knowing it and shareing the knowledge (as is should be done with the "occult" knowledge) should be rightly considered reveal-ism.
I am highly offended by your insinuation that those who want to reveal the hidden knowledge we've learned are judgeing without learning or simply taking what is spoon-fed. Especially when you then associate the effort to expose and reveal the carefully withheld truth the horrors of history committed by those who seek to withhold said truth.
I have most certainly studied this subject very thoroughly, and from ALL points of view. I conceed time and time again that there are those who's "satanic" religion is separate from black magic. I have however also personally known people who practice satanism AND black magic. And it is a fact that those who practice black magic tend to keep their practice HIDDEN, which makes it a form of occultism. The connections are not imaginary, and to say they are requires much splitting of hairs and some very AMAZING feats of acrobatic word play.
It's true that there are those who go on clinging to christian symbolism without understanding it, without learning its deeper meanings,which is very naive on their part. But to dismiss the FACTS about satanism/black magic/occultism on that premise is equally naive. The problem here is people on both sides insisting on viewing it all in strict black-and-white terms. You get the one side wanting to burn the other at the stake, and because they being spoon fed don't really know how to recognize that which really IS so nasty, they don't even find it and instead wind up demonizeing those who know anything about it. And then you get the other thinking that everybody who tries to reveal anything about it are demonizeing them and so on and on it goes, all the while Luciferian Masons are laughing their asses off at BOTH mainstream "christianity" AND cotton-candy Mr.Nice-Guy Wanna-Be "satanists"
anyway this poll is meant to determine how prevalent the association of these terms is on the forum

[drael]

Sorry if ive offended you. Obviously occult means hidden, we can agree on that. Personally i dont feel occultism means to hide. If thats the meaning of the word here, on
this forum, then i have no association with this.
I am happy to share whatever i know. I guess that puts us in a similar boat?

Im not so sure this is the general meaning of the term, but i guess it semantics. The words mysticism, mystery teachings, esoterica, magick etc, are all suitable replacements to me. Although it appears some of these words are blacklisted also :/

One of the problems is many here refer to the reptiles/annunuki as satan. I associate the word satan with that funny red guy. I like most christian mythology, but that one, satan never did anything for me. Serpent/reptiles/Annunuki is a better term/symbol for evil for me personally.

I know that the NWO practice the occult including black magick. The evidence for this is fairly clear, a quick tour of the symbolism in public buildings in america makes a good case. Its possible some NWO use satan (the red guy) as a symbol, although i personally dont feel it is common. Christianity is a very new religion, in historic terms. The most powerful symbols tend to be older, and the red guy, isnt much of a powerful figure anyway, hes just a fallen angel, not a god. Symbols and gods of an evil nature are most certainly used. One might call this satan. Personally I dont, and i worry about this association. I certainly agree with you that the NWO worship negative entities, and pratice symbolism that is dark in nature AKA black magick, a version of the occult.

As far as tragedies of history is concerned, in witch burning/spanish inquistion one man killed more men with his own hands than all the jews killed in ww2!! And of course they are burned alive etc. I cringe when i see christians associate other religion/beleif with satan. I almost cant beleive history has taught them nothing, that they still wont reserve judgement for god.
And all because of fear of perceived evil; fear is just so dangerous and effective a weapon. Recently it was used to convince america that killing people from the middle east was a moral choice. Hitler used fear of invasion to take control of germany (pretty similarly to bush actually). Fear is Their weapon of choice, potent dangerous stuff.

Its nothing personal, and nothing against any individuals beleifs, but i feel personally that id be remiss if i didnt warn and object when ordinary people can become the object of fear. And people who answer "occult is satanism", could easily be sliding down the path of fear and judgement. Hence my response, nothing personal to you intended -

after all it IS a valid question, and the responses will be enlightening. So please understand this is directed at the general audience, not you :)

[seer74]

Sorry if ive offended you. Obviously occult means hidden, we can agree on that. Personally i dont feel occultism means to hide. If thats the meaning of the word here, on
this forum, then i have no association with this.
I am happy to share whatever i know. I guess that puts us in a similar boat?

Im not so sure this is the general meaning of the term, but i guess it semantics. The words mysticism, mystery teachings, esoterica, magick etc, are all suitable replacements to me. Although it appears some of these words are blacklisted also :/

One of the problems is many here refer to the reptiles/annunuki as satan. I associate the word satan with that funny red guy. I like most christian mythology, but that one, satan never did anything for me. Serpent/reptiles/Annunuki is a better term/symbol for evil for me personally.

I know that the NWO practice the occult including black magick. The evidence for this is fairly clear, a quick tour of the symbolism in public buildings in america makes a good case. Its possible some NWO use satan (the red guy) as a symbol, although i personally dont feel it is common. Christianity is a very new religion, in historic terms. The most powerful symbols tend to be older, and the red guy, isnt much of a powerful figure anyway, hes just a fallen angel, not a god. Symbols and gods of an evil nature are most certainly used. One might call this satan. Personally I dont, and i worry about this association. I certainly agree with you that the NWO worship negative entities, and pratice symbolism that is dark in nature AKA black magick, a version of the occult.

As far as tragedies of history is concerned, in witch burning/spanish inquistion one man killed more men with his own hands than all the jews killed in ww2!! And of course they are burned alive etc. I cringe when i see christians associate other religion/beleif with satan. I almost cant beleive history has taught them nothing, that they still wont reserve judgement for god.
And all because of fear of perceived evil; fear is just so dangerous and effective a weapon. Recently it was used to convince america that killing people from the middle east was a moral choice. Hitler used fear of invasion to take control of germany (pretty similarly to bush actually). Fear is Their weapon of choice, potent dangerous stuff.

Its nothing personal, and nothing against any individuals beleifs, but i feel personally that id be remiss if i didnt warn and object when ordinary people can become the object of fear. And people who answer "occult is satanism", could easily be sliding down the path of fear and judgement. Hence my response, nothing personal to you intended -

after all it IS a valid question, and the responses will be enlightening. So please understand this is directed at the general audience, not you :)

and again here I find you and I in complete agreement, and as I have suspected before, our argument is over words not the thoughts they represent.

[seer74]

Although it appears some of these words are blacklisted also :/



blacklisted in what sense? you are free to express yourself here in whatever terminology you think you will work best. IMO the best word for what your refferring to is INFORMATION.
But this is a free speech forum and even IF you were saying that its OK to sacrifice virgins, frogs, children whatever you have every right to SAY (please don't do it!!!!:))and you are free to use terminology as you wish; just keep in mind that words can mean different things to different people, and words can confuse meaning, as you and I seem to have both done to each other.

[drael]

> blacklisted in what sense? you are free to express yourself here in >whatever terminology you think you will work best. IMO the best word for >what your refferring to is INFORMATION.

Well there are people on this board that think new age is a NWO product, so estoterica is out. When the word mystery comes up this is sometimes taken to imply secret societies. Magick is often paired with occult/black magick/satanism etc. I think mysticism is a word without negative connotations here, so thats free. Im discovering still what terminology works best in various places here. Its a mixed up place, lots of conflicting veiws and backgrounds (not a bad thing, but an adjustment). Information is a good suggestion, but probably too broad to infer what im meaning. As far as word confusion goes i just posted about that in the crowley topic...

Peace,
Drael

[octopusrex]

Ridiculous question.

Each thing is different.

[seer74]

Ridiculous question.

Each thing is different.

however different they may be this is a valid question nonetheless, because there IS a connection if only in peoples minds. Is it not pertinent to discern how prevalent this view is?

[octopusrex]

Not since we have wikipedia.. No.

[yanqui uxo]

If by Satanism, you are referring to the Church of Satan founded by Anton LaVey, then no, it has nothing to do with the occult. Nor does it have anything to do with Satan.

CoS was founded upon Anton LaVey's philosophical beliefs that there is no Christian God, no Christian idea of heaven, and that we can enjoy life's material pleasures to the extent that we do not harm others in the process. Satan is merely used as allegory within the CoS, as Satan was the great rebeller, and the members of the CoS feel they are rebelling against the Christian religion and the status quo in the process. Satanists are nothing more than libertarian atheists who enjoy wearing black, listening to a particular type of music and other things that pertain to their culture.

As for Occultism and Black Magick, neither are Satanist in the sense that they actually worship a deity named "Satan." In fact, Occultism and Black Magick should not even be remotely compared to one another. Those who study the occult, such as Theosophists and Cabalists, do not delve into "black magick" whatsoever. Those who study the occult are merely in search of esoteric knowledge and the arcane, something they feel that basic religious study cannot give them.

As far as black magick goes, yes, the left hand path can lead to such belief systems as Luciferianism which is VERY different from Satanism. As I said earlier, Satanism has nothing to do with any deity whatsoever, as Satanists are atheists. As for Luciferianism, Lucifer worship is a part of this belief system. Unless of course you're just a philosophical Luciferniast, which is quite similar to Satanism.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

[seer74]

If by Satanism, you are referring to the Church of Satan founded by Anton LaVey, then no, it has nothing to do with the occult. Nor does it have anything to do with Satan.

CoS was founded upon Anton LaVey's philosophical beliefs that there is no Christian God, no Christian idea of heaven, and that we can enjoy life's material pleasures to the extent that we do not harm others in the process. Satan is merely used as allegory within the CoS, as Satan was the great rebeller, and the members of the CoS feel they are rebelling against the Christian religion and the status quo in the process. Satanists are nothing more than libertarian atheists who enjoy wearing black, listening to a particular type of music and other things that pertain to their culture.

As for Occultism and Black Magick, neither are Satanist in the sense that they actually worship a deity named "Satan." In fact, Occultism and Black Magick should not even be remotely compared to one another. Those who study the occult, such as Theosophists and Cabalists, do not delve into "black magick" whatsoever. Those who study the occult are merely in search of esoteric knowledge and the arcane, something they feel that basic religious study cannot give them.

As far as black magick goes, yes, the left hand path can lead to such belief systems as Luciferianism which is VERY different from Satanism. As I said earlier, Satanism has nothing to do with any deity whatsoever, as Satanists are atheists. As for Luciferianism, Lucifer worship is a part of this belief system. Unless of course you're just a philosophical Luciferniast, which is quite similar to Satanism.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

You are absolutley right that Laveyanists do not worship Satan, practice Black Arts, or occultism. BUT;
Anton Lavey did NOT invent the term Satanism. Its a VERY old term. And many a practicioner of the Black Arts has hailed the one called "Satan" as god, and believed in him in a very literal way. And the Black Arts are often conducted in secret, this makes it an example of one of the MANY THINGS that can be termed Occultism. If its hidden away, its OCCULT.

[seer74]

I should know I've personally known Satanists who fall into the category of Satanism that Laveyanists deny exist. I have also known victims of ritual abuse, it did NOT occur in a Laveyan church, no. BUT the name Satan WAS USED.

[marpat]

I think a lot of the black magic labels come from christian propogandists who are basically trying to gain support for their own cause.

I have studied occultism also and found that most people into it are trying to progress spiritually outside of mainstream organised religions. If they are open about their belief system they get pounced on and abused. I remember years ago a new age shop was going to open in my town and the local bible thumpers were outraged, putting letters in the local papers, making horror stories about corrupting the young, etc. all due to the rumour that somebody had looked at opening a shop. I know people who have had their windows broken and been harrassed in the street just because of somebody starting a hate campaign without actually looking at what the people were about.

I think it is wrong to label people who study occultism as evil or black magicians. At the end of the day its the fruit that comes forth that is the proof of good or evil.

[marpat]

What you really need to do for this poll is to offer specific terms for what each things is in itself. Suggestion:

1) Occultist. Anybody who studies magical/ spiritual material that is not intended for general public viewing due to its power to harm if misused, or to protect themselves from being harmed by bigots.

2) Satanist. One who SPECIFICALLY invokes the satanic forces with the intent to do evil of whatever type.

3) Christian. One who thinks that everybody else is evil and that they alone will go to heaven :p

[psychicdefender]

3) Christian. One who thinks that everybody else is evil and that they alone will go to heaven :p

ROFL!!!! I shouldn't laugh, I do know a few, bless 'em.

[cruise4]

marpat has the right idea. The poll is faulty.

[armoured_amazon]

Well? Keeping in mind that Occultism is the practice of keeping the knowledge secret, not divulging it. Occult means hidden.

Imo (and God's), anything that is against God is for the enemy.

[kblood]

Imo (and God's), anything that is against God is for the enemy.

And during the dark ages, it was made quite clear that through the eyes of christianity or at least the church, occultism, black magic and anything that remotely resembled it was against the church and god.

That seems to be what later has become the belief that everyone who doesnt exactly follow the words or god must be heathens and therefore satanists. At least that is how it seems to me.

Evil is evil, no matter what god, diety or person claims it just. And face it, if there is a god, then the god has done evil. The devil, satan or whatever the scapegoat is to be called is working for god, not against. Another part of the system to make us deserve moving into the light of good.

I am curious though, what exactly is considered black magic?

And can occultism be used for good, and if so, then how?

[marpat]

And during the dark ages, it was made quite clear that through the eyes of christianity or at least the church, occultism, black magic and anything that remotely resembled it was against the church and god.

That seems to be what later has become the belief that everyone who doesnt exactly follow the words or god must be heathens and therefore satanists. At least that is how it seems to me.

Evil is evil, no matter what god, diety or person claims it just. And face it, if there is a god, then the god has done evil. The devil, satan or whatever the scapegoat is to be called is working for god, not against. Another part of the system to make us deserve moving into the light of good.

I am curious though, what exactly is considered black magic?

And can occultism be used for good, and if so, then how?

The general definition of a black magician is one who uses magic for selfish purposes, ie. material gain. The white magician uses magic to attain higher consciousness, the merging of the lower self into the higher, which is why the whole man is considered higher than the angels. The black magician is not interested in this merging and seek only to empower the ego, which can only subsist below the abyss, there fore they remain in outer darkness by their own choice. The methods of the black magician are also a reflection of this seperation. They are not one with the universal life energy and must seek power through other means, such as elemental's spirits, etc.

Magic can be used for good. I really simple example would be if the magician used a ritual or spell to heal a sick person. They are helping others to become whole and are not serving themselves so it is good.

Your insight into the evil labelling on anyobdy non-christian is accurate. There is a saying that the gods of an old religion become the devils of the new religion.

[armoured_amazon]

I am curious though, what exactly is considered black magic?

I'm curious too, because in my opinion, magic of any kind is unfair. People should not complain about being bent to the NWO when they are happy to manipulate external happenings to suit their own lives. My Wiccan ex-housemate had no answer for me when I asked her who really benefited from her practices besides herself.

[marpat]

I'm curious too, because in my opinion, magic of any kind is unfair. People should not complain about being bent to the NWO when they are happy to manipulate external happenings to suit their own lives. My Wiccan ex-housemate had no answer for me when I asked her who really benefited from her practices besides herself.

Then according to the definition I set down she was practising black magic. Simple

[drael]

Whats black magick? Depends on who u ask.

An average person, or a christian, might say - everything occult, or to do with magick. By this defination prayer, and church is black magick.

In occult circles, what is considered black magick differs. Any spell that hurts, binds the will of another, or negatively effects them in any way is universally considered black magick. However many consider spells that benefit the self, like money or love spells, black magick. Crowley goes so far as to say that any selling of ones magickal gift (psychics), any personal gain spells, even some healing spells and any spell that substitutes for what a person can simply do, is black magick.

The only safe white magick, is magick done without personal desire or involvement, for the healing, aid or protection of others. In practice, any sort of healing or benefit to others type spell is acceptable practice.

(And BTW, these are the only spells i ever cast, amazon, i never do gain spells. In practice its no different in intention from prayer - asking god in a reverent and sacred manner if he can help a person in need. In fact, most common prayer and church ritual is probably far more into selfish gain and black magick IMO than me - "God can i please have some money for my mortgage, etc?")

Wiccans use the rede "an it harm none". But many of there spells are things like money spells. Have they not researched the effect of desire on the outcome of magickal manifestation? One cannot cast these sort of spells without risk of rebound effects.

Actual black magick, as practiced, is based around a few things.

The acheivement of personal goodhood - the ascension of the ego or psyche as they sometimes call it. There intiation etc is based around this, as servitude to a dark god, force or symbol of self, or ego.

The binding of various entities, spirits, demons etc.

The domination of others, through magick, and through personal power.

And rituals considered totally unethical by all (sacrifice, abuse etc)

Most occultists wont even touch sex magick, even when consensual, between partners etc, because sex magick has become associatd with the black magick practice of abuse, drugging, orgies etc.

[ichi wa zen]

The Sun and the Moon shine when open and not when covered.

The Buddha

[drael]

Yup...

And the ptb will kill u if u talk too much...

[cataleptik]

i practice the Right Hand path. It has also been called White Magic,

yet the legend of Horus is a legend of someone who preserved, legend has it, all magic, meaning both Black and White "schools" or disciplines.

most people who say that they practice magic have no real abilities in the craft to rival the great legends.

i have argued with Satanists, Setians, Luciferians. Obviously THEY LIE.
as Lucifer was the Lord of Lies. there is a reason for the duality -- Gods and Devils, Demons and Angels, Good and Evil.

it seems that there are some who just seem to exist ONLY to attempt to corrupt and decieve others. I enjoy lauging at their arguments -- but recent "revelations" abouy Satanic practitioners in high offices pof the United States government i find difficult to laugh at -- i must go to great lengths.

all in all i believe that an review of the Eleusis Mysteries, the story that has a role in human development about the abduction of Proserpina- as well as a careful review of all accounts of the legend of Osiris and the neteri who atompanied Osiris in Dynastic egypt'os origins will prove perhaps enlightening.

all in all, I expect Satanists to be liars, who present an innocent and dissembling guise. I should think such people should GO TO HELL.












I disagree with you defination of occult.

From wikipedia:

The word occult comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden".[/b]

The word has many uses in the English language, popularly meaning "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable",[3][4] usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes popularly taken to mean "knowledge meant only for certain people" or "knowledge that must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.

Personally i am offended by this association between satanism/black magick and the occult, but it is a common misinterpretation of mainstream christianity, so i guess its a valid question. Its a deep shame so many people judge before learning, or simply take what is spoon fed. It reminds me of so many horrors of human history caused by judgement. I hope for a brighter future.

[drael]

yet the legend of Horus is a legend of someone who preserved, legend has it, all magic, meaning both Black and White "schools" or disciplines.

Interesting. Ive long supected the eventual resolution may be some form of truce and acceptance, an end to the light-dark war. A karma-evolution process, given by the lessons of atlantis and babylon. Could u possibly give me a link to this info?

most people who say that they practice magic have no real abilities in the craft to rival the great legends.

There may be several reasons for this. firstly the counter-reality spell (sometimes called "the web"), that makes the veil harder to penetrate. Another is the difficulty in accessing the proper information - the ptb have tried hard to dilute all information. And finally, our modern reliance on left-hand values - desire, and self related values. I know im only a student of such knowledge, i will endevour to learn more. Shared perception is its own magick, and bound in illusion, one must fight many minds to acheive any manifestation.

Obviously THEY LIE.

Boy do they ever! The hubris of it all. I think they have lied so much, they now beleive there own nonsense.