Any thoughts on Eckhart Tolle...

[intruder]

or perhaps it would be better to say..."any NO thoughts on Eckhart Tolle and The Power Of Now?"

An underground bestseller, The Power Of Now eventually rose to numero uno on The New York Times bestseller lists.

"enlightened master" or .....

He's mentioned the possibility in his live lectures of attaining "enlightenment" ANYWHERE...including the prison camp. The thrust of The Power Of Now is to be in a continous state of (no thought)"non-resistance to WHAT IS"..."the suchness of now" to quote the buddha.

I assume he's referring to Viktor Frankl in regards to enlightenment within a prison camp. Jesus too was able to attain enlightenment through the way of surrender to what is..."thy will...not mine...be done.."

He claims to not be affiliated with ANY religion, but that he draws inspiration from all of them...ALL OF THEM? well, primarily Christianity and Buddhism.

just looking for a stream of thought on this soft-spoken author.

[tru3]

or perhaps it would be better to say..."any NO thoughts on Eckhart Tolle and The Power Of Now?"

An underground bestseller, The Power Of Now eventually rose to numero uno on The New York Times bestseller lists.

"enlightened master" or .....

He's mentioned the possibility in his live lectures of attaining "enlightenment" ANYWHERE...including the prison camp. The thrust of The Power Of Now is to be in a continous state of (no thought)"non-resistance to WHAT IS"..."the suchness of now" to quote the buddha.

I assume he's referring to Viktor Frankl in regards to enlightenment within a prison camp. Jesus too was able to attain enlightenment through the way of surrender to what is..."thy will...not mine...be done.."

He claims to not be affiliated with ANY religion, but that he draws inspiration from all of them...ALL OF THEM? well, primarily Christianity and Buddhism.

just looking for a stream of thought on this soft-spoken author.

tolle is a little "lite" for my taste. his second book is actually really interesting though. worth a look. saying "yes" can be the hardest thing in the world, sometimes, lol

yes, i believe that frankl informed that sentiment. quite an astonishing author, really.

[Anders Lindman]

I have found Eckhart Tolle's practice of putting awareness into the body helpful, even though I haven't learned this technique fully yet. Sometimes it almost feels like the physical body is a holographic version of the entire world, and it probably is on one level, and that would explain why this "simple" practice of having awareness inside the body is so difficult, because the physical body is a massive hologram that in its non-liberated state contains what Eckhart Tolle calls the pain body which is a heavy load of suffering that needs to be dissolved/transcended.

[tru3]

I have found Eckhart Tolle's practice of putting awareness into the body helpful, even though I haven't learned this technique fully yet. Sometimes it almost feels like the physical body is a holographic version of the entire world, and it probably is on one level, and that would explain why this "simple" practice of having awareness inside the body is so difficult, because the physical body is a massive hologram that in its non-liberated state contains what Eckhart Tolle calls the pain body which is a heavy load of suffering that needs to be dissolved/transcended.

excellent insight anders!

yes, when i am most open to love, it seems sometimes i am in great pain. "enlightenment" doesn't mean we feel less or disconnect; we actually feel more!

i find it helpful to keep asking throughout the day, "who is having this pain? who is it that is feeling?". the pain body "retreats" from this question, in my experience.

good thread.

[anonamongus]

This book should have been a precursor to the power of now, it's explaination of the ego is down to earth and easy to understand as well as witness ( thru your own actions as well as others) if for no reason but to understand human nature, A new earth is an Thrid Eye Opening Experience...

[Anders Lindman]

excellent insight anders!

yes, when i am most open to love, it seems sometimes i am in great pain. "enlightenment" doesn't mean we feel less or disconnect; we actually feel more!

i find it helpful to keep asking throughout the day, "who is having this pain? who is it that is feeling?". the pain body "retreats" from this question, in my experience.

good thread.

In my experience this feeling more has indeed increased the suffering. Physical and emotional pain seems to exist as numbed out areas of the pain body. So when awareness is put into the pain body and it awakens, then the suffering will often increase, and that's a good thing I think because only when the pain comes up to the surface can it be dissolved and transcended.

And I think what David Icke sometimes calls the eggshell of fear is the same thing Eckhart Tolle calls the pain body. Tolle also talks about the collective human pain body, and that would be similar to what Icke has called the frankenstein matrix which humanity is trapped in.

[Anders Lindman]

Eckhart Tolle wrote about the alchemy of transforming the pain body. Gurdjieff called this process conscious suffering. It's a difference between just experiencing suffering (as a helpless victim or trying to run away from it) and using suffering together with conscious awareness for the purpose of healing.

The idea, I think, is to break through suffering, to dissolve it, transmute it, not to remain stuck in the suffering.

[tru3]

In my experience this feeling more has indeed increased the suffering. Physical and emotional pain seems to exist as numbed out areas of the pain body. So when awareness is put into the pain body and it awakens, then the suffering will often increase, and that's a good thing I think because only when the pain comes up to the surface can it be dissolved and transcended.

And I think what David Icke sometimes calls the eggshell of fear is the same thing Eckhart Tolle calls the pain body. Tolle also talks about the collective human pain body, and that would be similar to what Icke has called the frankenstein matrix which humanity is trapped in.

that's an excellent way of putting it, really. when a hand is frozen and near frostbite, it hurts like hell as it thaws. in the story of plato's cave, the people's eyes hurt for a while after they come out into the daylight.

[rossus]

i've downloaded "the power of now" a couple of days back, but haven't yet looked into it.

previously i have enjoyed and found very helpful, satsang videos with adyashanti and gangaji's book "The diamond in your pocket".

A lot of Gangaji videos can be found online on http://video.google.com

[Anders Lindman]

that's an excellent way of putting it, really. when a hand is frozen and near frostbite, it hurts like hell as it thaws. in the story of plato's cave, the people's eyes hurt for a while after they come out into the daylight.

Yes, like a frozen hand, the pain body too must thaw. When the pain body begins to melt, suffering can actually increase, and then that can look as if going in the wrong direction, but increased awareness can use the suffering as fuel for speeding up the thawing process.

[Anders Lindman]

i've downloaded "the power of now" a couple of days back, but haven't yet looked into it.

previously i have enjoyed and found very helpful, satsang videos with adyashanti and gangaji's book "The diamond in your pocket".

A lot of Gangaji videos can be found online on http://video.google.com

One thing I have a problem with accepting is that spiritual teachers like Gangaji, Adyashanti and even Eckhart Tolle promote ideas like acceptance of what is and pure choiceless awareness and such. That sounds to me suspiciously like a subtle form of detachment leading to abandonment of one's own inner power. So I don't completely trust spiritual teachers.

[intruder]

Tolle's thesis IS irrefutable...YES!! it IS always "NOW"....you can't argue with that.

Also....in the "grand tradition", Tolle's "enlightenment" is another death and resurrection story. He lived in a state of acute mental anguish, depression and so forth....one night, the pain almost became intolerable...and then he heard a voice..."RESIST NOTHING" it said. He awoke in a state of bliss....captivated by the shapes and shadows in his room...light...life.

And then he went on to become a millionaire.

[rossus]

One thing I have a problem with accepting is that spiritual teachers like Gangaji, Adyashanti and even Eckhart Tolle promote ideas like acceptance of what is and pure choiceless awareness and such. That sounds to me suspiciously like a subtle form of detachment leading to abandonment of one's own inner power. So I don't completely trust spiritual teachers.
i don't know if you have practical experience with being here now... or if you have just intellectually studied the things they say.
if you have only had intellectual experience with these kind of teachings, it's a bit hard to really understand what it all leads to.

maybe your minds creates ideas why it is a wrong idea to live this way. it may make it sound like it's an unnatural detachment or an abandonment of your own inner power.

i don't think it's possible for the mind to understand though, what it means to actually to be here... and what comes and goes as an automatical result thereof. there's nothing unnatural or magical about letting go of your own suffering, in fact i think this is way more natural than holding on to it.

the unenlightenment of mankind is probably the biggest reason the whole world is in such a mess.
why mankind destroys himself and his home... is because people identify with body, thoughts and emotions.
this creates unhappiness, the illusion of seperation, greedyness, etc.

i am also for human-liberation from global politricks. but i think inner freedom is much more important than outer freedom. when you don't have inner-freedom, outer freedom doesn't mean a thing.



what do you mean with inner-power by the way? :)

[Anders Lindman]

Tolle's thesis IS irrefutable...YES!! it IS always "NOW"....you can't argue with that.

Also....in the "grand tradition", Tolle's "enlightenment" is another death and resurrection story. He lived in a state of acute mental anguish, depression and so forth....one night, the pain almost became intolerable...and then he heard a voice..."RESIST NOTHING" it said. He awoke in a state of bliss....captivated by the shapes and shadows in his room...light...life.

And then he went on to become a millionaire.

It would be easier for me to accept his idea of "acceptance of what is" if I too become a millionaire. :D

[Anders Lindman]

i don't know if you have practical experience with being here now... or if you have just intellectually studied the things they say.
if you have only had intellectual experience with these kind of teachings, it's a bit hard to really understand what it all leads to.

maybe your minds creates ideas why it is a wrong idea to live this way. it may make it sound like it's an unnatural detachment or an abandonment of your own inner power.

i don't think it's possible for the mind to understand though, what it means to actually to be here... and what comes and goes as an automatical result thereof. there's nothing unnatural or magical about letting go of your own suffering, in fact i think this is way more natural than holding on to it.

the unenlightenment of mankind is probably the biggest reason the whole world is in such a mess.
why mankind destroys himself and his home... is because people identify with body, thoughts and emotions.
this creates unhappiness, the illusion of seperation, greedyness, etc.

i am also for human-liberation from global politricks. but i think inner freedom is much more important than outer freedom. when you don't have inner-freedom, outer freedom doesn't mean a thing.



what do you mean with inner-power by the way? :)

I was thinking of inner power as an increased personal creative capacity. That capacity would make it possible to increase both inner and outer freedom. Tolle talks about a power that goes beyond the personal. I think that could be a limited view. As I see it, the personal self must be plugged in to the creative power, not be abandoned or neglected.

[intruder]

And before I sound like an ungrateful ninkompOOp, I do not begrudge Eckhart's success. I was going through some turbulent emotional times when I encountered The Power Of Now in audio format. It was/IS a joy to listen to. He truly helped me to "center", to breathe, to accept and move through some personal pain. Anders? Eckhart can help put you in touch with "creativity"..a creativity that resides in the "background" of consciousness....when content, forms, and structures are the foreground you lose touch with something so subtle. The Power Of Now is not a "quick fix"..it requires patience and practice.

[tru3]

i don't know if you have practical experience with being here now... or if you have just intellectually studied the things they say.
if you have only had intellectual experience with these kind of teachings, it's a bit hard to really understand what it all leads to.

maybe your minds creates ideas why it is a wrong idea to live this way. it may make it sound like it's an unnatural detachment or an abandonment of your own inner power.

i don't think it's possible for the mind to understand though, what it means to actually to be here... and what comes and goes as an automatical result thereof. there's nothing unnatural or magical about letting go of your own suffering, in fact i think this is way more natural than holding on to it.

the unenlightenment of mankind is probably the biggest reason the whole world is in such a mess.
why mankind destroys himself and his home... is because people identify with body, thoughts and emotions.
this creates unhappiness, the illusion of seperation, greedyness, etc.

i am also for human-liberation from global politricks. but i think inner freedom is much more important than outer freedom. when you don't have inner-freedom, outer freedom doesn't mean a thing.



what do you mean with inner-power by the way? :)


anders,

i can certainly understand why you would think that way. all i can share with you as that within the body, the inside looking out as it were, the process of not avoiding or suppressing what shows up can be excruciating, actually terrifying. it's not passive, it's a dynamic process. it just looks like nothing's going on! there is more energy in a cubic meter of vacuum than all the nuclear weapons ever created.

kudos to blue star for finding the following:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8015&postcount=1

basically, this is the far side of what' tolle means by saying yes, imv. it seems to mingle the stance of both zen and tantra. vajrayana buddhism means "diamond vehicle" buddhism. how is a diamond created? incredibly intense heat and pressure. that's the fuel for tantra: heat, pressure.

ken wilber, for example, believes that "working with" this heat and pressure will eventually fuse spirit into matter in an entirely new way. basically it solves the age-old conundrum"

the world is illusion,
there is only god,
god is the world.

[john white]

It would be easier for me to accept his idea of "acceptance of what is" if I too become a millionaire. :D

ROFL!

I don't have a problem with tolle, or with anyone else who happens to have "attracted" wealth in this world, but that is an absolutley spanky comeback!

mind you anders have you never heard it said that money is a curse, not a blessing? (yeah I know, easier to feel "cursed" by wealth when one has some!)

Know ye in truth that wealth is a mighty barrier between the seeker and his desire, the lover and his beloved. the rich, but for a few, shall in no wise attain the court of His prescence nor enter the city of content and resignation. Well it is with him, who, being rich, is not hindered by his riches from the eternal kingdom, nor deprived by them of imperishable dominion.By the Most Great Name! The splendour of such a wealthy man shall illuminate the dwellers of heaven even as the sun enlightens the people of earth

I take that too mean "consciousness is the one true gold" ;)

[Anders Lindman]

anders,

i can certainly understand why you would think that way. all i can share with you as that within the body, the inside looking out as it were, the process of not avoiding or suppressing what shows up can be excruciating, actually terrifying. it's not passive, it's a dynamic process. it just looks like nothing's going on! there is more energy in a cubic meter of vacuum than all the nuclear weapons ever created.

kudos to blue star for finding the following:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8015&postcount=1

basically, this is the far side of what' tolle means by saying yes, imv. it seems to mingle the stance of both zen and tantra. vajrayana buddhism means "diamond vehicle" buddhism. how is a diamond created? incredibly intense heat and pressure. that's the fuel for tantra: heat, pressure.

ken wilber, for example, believes that "working with" this heat and pressure will eventually fuse spirit into matter in an entirely new way. basically it solves the age-old conundrum"

the world is illusion,
there is only god,
god is the world.

Not avoiding or suppressing the suffering is part of the technique of what Tolle calls conscious pain. That I think is a good practice since it is connected to personal control. But when spiritual teachers begin to talk about surrendering of the self, acceptance of what is and so on, I think they are fooling themselves and/or knowingly or unknowingly are trying to fool their students.

[Anders Lindman]

ROFL!

I don't have a problem with tolle, or with anyone else who happens to have "attracted" wealth in this world, but that is an absolutley spanky comeback!

mind you anders have you never heard it said that money is a curse, not a blessing? (yeah I know, easier to feel "cursed" by wealth when one has some!)

Know ye in truth that wealth is a mighty barrier between the seeker and his desire, the lover and his beloved. the rich, but for a few, shall in no wise attain the court of His prescence nor enter the city of content and resignation. Well it is with him, who, being rich, is not hindered by his riches from the eternal kingdom, nor deprived by them of imperishable dominion.By the Most Great Name! The splendour of such a wealthy man shall illuminate the dwellers of heaven even as the sun enlightens the people of earth

I take that too mean "consciousness is the one true gold" ;)

Money is needed for increased external freedom. At least for some time into the future, money will still be the fundamental material social energy. Just as individual cells within the body need nutrition, so too do we as humans need the "nutrition" of money.

[Anders Lindman]

And before I sound like an ungrateful ninkompOOp, I do not begrudge Eckhart's success. I was going through some turbulent emotional times when I encountered The Power Of Now in audio format. It was/IS a joy to listen to. He truly helped me to "center", to breathe, to accept and move through some personal pain. Anders? Eckhart can help put you in touch with "creativity"..a creativity that resides in the "background" of consciousness....when content, forms, and structures are the foreground you lose touch with something so subtle. The Power Of Now is not a "quick fix"..it requires patience and practice.

Tolle has come up with some good ideas, but still I feel he hasn't grasped the whole picture. For example, many of the ideas that Bruce Lipton describes are lacking in Tolle's teachings, such as how changing beliefs can cure things like cancer. To merely accept disease "as a natural [read: unavoidable] part of life" is to still be stuck in old belief systems.

[Anders Lindman]

Tolle has come up with some good ideas, but still I feel he hasn't grasped the whole picture. For example, many of the ideas that Bruce Lipton describes are lacking in Tolle's teachings, such as how changing beliefs can cure things like cancer. To merely accept disease "as a natural [read: unavoidable] part of life" is to still be stuck in old belief systems.

Also, isn't it possible, at least in theory, to still be thinking AND at the same time be connected to formless awareness? And isn't what Tolle promotes actually a subtle but very distinctive form of fragmentation? That is, a fragmentation between the intellect (which Tolle sometimes calls object consciousness) and formless awarenesss (sometimes called space consciousness by Tolle).

The intellect deals with separate concepts, but the whole of reality is made up of separate (yet interconnected) objects. What maybe Tolle points to is that humanity has become stuck in only seeing separate things, and has lost sight of the formless root of existence.

What I miss in Tolle's descriptions is the relation between the world of form and formless awareness. Separate things exist in relation to each other, but how is formless awareness related to separate things? The answer is that formless awareness itself becomes an object in relation to the world of form.

Formless awareness is the One, and the world of form is the Many. Without the One the Many cannot be experienced. And without the Many the One could not experience anything. So the formless and the world of form are two sides of the same coin of existence.

Thoughts are concepts, mental objects, and are thus parts of the Many. Therefore there is no difference in fundamental essence between thoughts and other forms of objects like trees, birds, cars and so on. The mistake Tolle has made is to separate mental objects from other forms of objects as if they belong to different categories. Within the world of form, thoughts ARE of course different than other types of objects, but at the most fundamental level, the WHOLE world of form belongs to the same category: namely objects, existing in mutual relationship with the formless.

[tru3]

Not avoiding or suppressing the suffering is part of the technique of what Tolle calls conscious pain. That I think is a good practice since it is connected to personal control. But when spiritual teachers begin to talk about surrendering of the self, acceptance of what is and so on, I think they are fooling themselves and/or knowingly or unknowingly are trying to fool their students.

i agree with you to the extent that this is indeed a dodgy issue. it's a fine line.

unfortunately, at this time and place, it's still a matter of "caveat emptor": let the student be aware, and be discerning. the whole idea of caveat emptor is infuriating to me-- where' the responsibility of the seller? that's why this type of discussion is so important; it saves everyone time and energy chasing rainbows and unicorns.

in my exploration, i always look for infrastructure: many "gurus" simply build around them a coccoon of support; tithes, moneys, fealty, whatever. if there is an infrastructure, i generally cast a wary eye. another (and i'll keep mentioning this over and over 'til i sound like a broken record, i guess): does the teacher address the emotional body? where does forgiveness fit in the scheme of things?

in some circles, tolle, gangagi, etc are considered "neoadviatic". this is a departure from the ancient tradition of adviata coming out out india.

i invite anyone to read the life story of ramana maharshi. after studying his work intensely for over two years, i believe the type of awakening he described and demonstrated is "organic" (clumsy word, granted; what i'm suggesting is that it was a natural unfoldment from within, like the opening of flower petals from the core of the bud). at the young age of 16 or 17, he had a death experience. he then wandered india, ending up in tiruvannamalai, the location of mount arunachala. ramana himself credited arunachala-- the physical mountain, not some deity residing there-- with his "final" awakening. he lived there for years, sleeping in caves during bad weather, wandering the hillside (it's called "mount", but it really is not much more than a big hill). there is an ashram there now, but this ashram literally grew up around him. in "conversations" there is actual court testimony of a legal dispute between two managers of the ashram. ramana was called for testimony. i've been looking for the passage and can't locate it, but it really is priceless! it really seemed to me that he really did not give a rat's ass whether there was an ashram or not! :-D

similarly, the buddha announced his enlightenment to onlookers by touching the earth, with a smile.

so, anyway, these are merely observations meant to be helpful. we can't get the right answers until we start asking the right questions! :)

but what is really being surrendered? my understanding is that all "enlightenment" is is the giving up of illusion and dis-identification with that which is not real.

[rossus]

but what is really being surrendered? my understanding is that all "enlightenment" is is the giving up of illusion and dis-identification with that which is not real.
what is surrendered is your resistance to say YES to this moment right now.
the mind uses complicated behavior to stop you from doing this.

one of the ways it does is make it look like happiness is out there, and there is something that must be done to achieve it.
it makes it look like, you need to be something more... or that you need something more... in order to be happy.

this can be a big thing, like a succesful career... or a world free of domination by satanic government... or a girlfriend
or a simple thing like, the need for some sort of intellectual satisfaction. the need to know more, the need to find out the truth.



when you somehow stop believing that you need to do something, or achieve something to be happy... stop believing you'll ever get to any "valuable truth" by understanding things or downloading more information on our mental-harddrive.
when you just breath and stop doing anything... then you notice that your mind is a psycho... it just thinks and thinks and thinks... and you unconsciously follow it all the time.

you actually never know any rest because you are never here. you are in a trance. lost in thought.


so, what is surrendered... is the "addiction" to follow the mindstuff all the time. there is an addiction to be unconscious, an addiction to search for happiness somewhere outside ourself.
if we don't choose to be unconscious; we are confronted with our boredom, our fears, our beliefs, our feelings... and that's something we always run away from, because we are scared. we don't know how to handle it.
the way to handle it, is to be here now. stop trying to resist it. breath. let all that uneasyness pass right through your heart, and feel how good it feels to just be "open" inside...

even if the thought or emotion you are experiencing is something your mind classifies as "something negative", it just feels real good to just allow your self to experience it.. allow it to pass through you. instead of resisting to let it pass through... because you are affraid it's something "bad".

if there is an infrastructure, i generally cast a wary eye.
i understand the valuableness of being paranoid, when dealing with information given by people who make money by selling the so-called "truth".
but i don't think that an infrastructure is necessarily bad. the reason why adyashanti and gangaji have reached me, is because they have "gone big" with it.

i don't think they would refuse to teach anyone because they don't have the money either. but everyone who can miss the money, they are getting something valuable in return, perhaps the most valuable thing they have ever found in life. so these people aren't exactly "ripped-off".

i hope and think that tolle and other teachers put most of their money in helping people spiritually and financially. but even if they don't that is ok too...
because the stuff they teach really works. (if you are ready to hear the message, that is... i don't know everyone is ready for it)

and if these teachers would somehow be "corrupt" or something, then it's just their ego's that are corrupt.
the truth, awareness, which is alive in them as much as it is in you and me... this is pure. this is the real teacher.

[Anders Lindman]

i agree with you to the extent that this is indeed a dodgy issue. it's a fine line.

unfortunately, at this time and place, it's still a matter of "caveat emptor": let the student be aware, and be discerning. the whole idea of caveat emptor is infuriating to me-- where' the responsibility of the seller? that's why this type of discussion is so important; it saves everyone time and energy chasing rainbows and unicorns.

in my exploration, i always look for infrastructure: many "gurus" simply build around them a coccoon of support; tithes, moneys, fealty, whatever. if there is an infrastructure, i generally cast a wary eye. another (and i'll keep mentioning this over and over 'til i sound like a broken record, i guess): does the teacher address the emotional body? where does forgiveness fit in the scheme of things?

in some circles, tolle, gangagi, etc are considered "neoadviatic". this is a departure from the ancient tradition of adviata coming out out india.

i invite anyone to read the life story of ramana maharshi. after studying his work intensely for over two years, i believe the type of awakening he described and demonstrated is "organic" (clumsy word, granted; what i'm suggesting is that it was a natural unfoldment from within, like the opening of flower petals from the core of the bud). at the young age of 16 or 17, he had a death experience. he then wandered india, ending up in tiruvannamalai, the location of mount arunachala. ramana himself credited arunachala-- the physical mountain, not some deity residing there-- with his "final" awakening. he lived there for years, sleeping in caves during bad weather, wandering the hillside (it's called "mount", but it really is not much more than a big hill). there is an ashram there now, but this ashram literally grew up around him. in "conversations" there is actual court testimony of a legal dispute between two managers of the ashram. ramana was called for testimony. i've been looking for the passage and can't locate it, but it really is priceless! it really seemed to me that he really did not give a rat's ass whether there was an ashram or not! :-D

similarly, the buddha announced his enlightenment to onlookers by touching the earth, with a smile.

so, anyway, these are merely observations meant to be helpful. we can't get the right answers until we start asking the right questions! :)

but what is really being surrendered? my understanding is that all "enlightenment" is is the giving up of illusion and dis-identification with that which is not real.

Spiritual masters probably have inner enlightenment, but that is only a partial enlightenment. The inner world has to feel good, but the external world also has to feel right, beautiful, interesting and exciting. There must be physical, emotional, mental and social freedom and health. More goodies on all levels!

[rossus]

Spiritual masters probably have inner enlightenment, but that is only a partial enlightenment. The inner world has to feel good, but the external world also has to feel right, beautiful, interesting and exciting. There must be physical, emotional, mental and social freedom and health. More goodies on all levels!
i understand that by using logic, what you just stated sounds perfectly right. but i think that, the reason why you feel like more conditions must be met besides inner enlightenment... to be "really enlightened"... stems from the lack of inner enlightenment.

you really sound like you believe, something "must be accomplished".
maybe... if the inner enlightenment is there, you know that the outer enlightenment doesn't matter.

everything is belief, backed up by logic. logic can be used in more ways than one, creating different outcome. so you cannot know what is actually "right".


i think that... when you are aware, and you are accepting what is... as it is... it doesn't matter which activities in this illusionary world you wish to partake in.
if you wish to try live up to the things that the mind portrays as "complete enlightenment on all levels", there is nothing wrong with this.

but your life will not be more "right" than when you are lazy all the time, and only put energy into being lazy.. going for a walk now and then.. eating fruit and having sex.

---------------

a while back, it hit me that there may not even be anyone truely "enlightened" at all. perhaps it is even impossible to become enlightened... simply because "enlightenment" is not something which can be attained or lost.

perhaps all there is, is enlightenment.
both the good, the bad, and everything in between.


depending on how aware someone is, that everything is just an illusion... a story that is one of the many ways reality is being interpreted by his individual mind and senses,
we give this person the title "enlightened" or "unenlightened"...
but perhaps, the fact we give this title to a person... is only a sign that we are "unenlightened"?


when you stop using logic and thoughts... to tell you what is true, what is false, what is right, what is wrong, what is you, what is not you, who is enlightened, who isn't enlightened, what enlightenment is and what it isn't...
then you experience reality in a sense of oneness. then you experience what is frequently being called "enlightenment" :p

just a thought though

[Anders Lindman]

i understand that by using logic, what you just stated sounds perfectly right. but i think that, the reason why you feel like more conditions must be met besides inner enlightenment... to be "really enlightened"... stems from the lack of inner enlightenment.

you really sound like you believe, something "must be accomplished".
maybe... if the inner enlightenment is there, you know that the outer enlightenment doesn't matter.

everything is belief, backed up by logic. logic can be used in more ways than one, creating different outcome. so you cannot know what is actually "right".


i think that... when you are aware, and you are accepting what is... as it is... it doesn't matter which activities in this illusionary world you wish to partake in.
if you wish to try live up to the things that the mind portrays as "complete enlightenment on all levels", there is nothing wrong with this.

but your life will not be more "right" than when you are lazy all the time, and only put energy into being lazy.. going for a walk now and then.. eating fruit and having sex.

---------------

a while back, it hit me that there may not even be anyone truely "enlightened" at all. perhaps it is even impossible to become enlightened... simply because "enlightenment" is not something which can be attained or lost.

perhaps all there is, is enlightenment.
both the good, the bad, and everything in between.


depending on how aware someone is, that everything is just an illusion... a story that is one of the many ways reality is being interpreted by his individual mind and senses,
we give this person the title "enlightened" or "unenlightened"...
but perhaps, the fact we give this title to a person... is only a sign that we are "unenlightened"?


when you stop using logic and thoughts... to tell you what is true, what is false, what is right, what is wrong, what is you, what is not you, who is enlightened, who isn't enlightened, what enlightenment is and what it isn't...
then you experience reality in a sense of oneness. then you experience what is frequently being called "enlightenment" :p

Instead of looking at it as more conditions need to be met, we could also see it as the removal of negative beliefs, which in turn will generate freedom and health. For example to start with small steps, like questioning certain ideas that are based on fear.

Or some people may want to try some major kick ass change of belief. One such big change would be to question the idea that things can go wrong. Maybe things only can go wrong if we believe they can. And fear then, would simply be the (possibly false) belief that things can go wrong or get worse.

As Bruce Lipton quoted someone: "Whether you believe you can, or believe you can't, you're right"

[tru3]

rossus,

thanks for sharing your comments.

i understand the valuableness of being paranoid, when dealing with information given by people who make money by selling the so-called "truth".
but i don't think that an infrastructure is necessarily bad. the reason why adyashanti and gangaji have reached me, is because they have "gone big" with it.

yes, top that with being a "lone wolf" most of my life, and you've got a winning combination lol :rolleyes:

my comments were meant as a general rule of thumb, not an indictment of any one person. actually i found "the enneagram of liberation", written by gangaji's husband, eli jaxon-bear, to be a profound book. working with it changed me deeply. i've listened to a couple of his audio's; his voice has a quality that's really indescribable.

i don't really know anything about gangaji. i do know eli claims his lineage to be Ramana. so i feel at home here.

as for infrastructure, what i've read that happens is that the guru-ees tend to form a protective cocoon around the guru that allows the wise one to dump all his survival shit and "unfinished business" onto his poor minions. i'm specifically thinking of adi da/ bubba freejohn. while the "the dawn horse testament" is an extremely powerful book, the thought of being his devotee makes my blood run cold.

please read, "the strange case of adi da"

http://www.adidawilber.com/case_of_adi_da/index.html


and if these teachers would somehow be "corrupt" or something, then it's just their ego's that are corrupt.
the truth, awareness, which is alive in them as much as it is in you and me... this is pure. this is the real teacher.

unfortunately, the effects on the devotees psychologically and the betrayal of trust when we hear of various abuses is very real. in many cases, these people become disillusioned with the spiritual path altogether. yes, that may be their path, but it really didn't have to be that way, if someone would have just told the truth.

i don't think they would refuse to teach anyone because they don't have the money either. but everyone who can miss the money, they are getting something valuable in return, perhaps the most valuable thing they have ever found in life. so these people aren't exactly "ripped-off".

i hope and think that tolle and other teachers put most of their money in helping people spiritually and financially. but even if they don't that is ok too...
because the stuff they teach really works. (if you are ready to hear the message, that is... i don't know everyone is ready for it)

agreed. i've read tolle, i've heard tolle speak, and he appears to emanate harmlessness. with the quickening that appears to be unfolding, people are moving more and more effortlessly into nondual Consciousness. i started my explorations in the late 80's and have moved at a slow pace, but the people i met in the human potential movement who had been around from the 70's moved at a snail's pace! by 1998, my wife and i got a bit envious of how fast these folks were growing!

that's good news, to me. :)

[Anders Lindman]

Another danger I see with spiritual teachers is that they all, as far as I have seen, describe such a shoddy kind of enlightenment. David Icke, even though not a spiritual teacher, has a much more complete description of Infinite Consciousness.

[tru3]

Another danger I see with spiritual teachers is that they all, as far as I have seen, describe such a shoddy kind of enlightenment. David Icke, even though not a spiritual teacher, has a much more complete description of Infinite Consciousness.

it is pretty remarkable, isn't it?

words fail. they are ideas, a finger pointing at the moon.

that being said, there are certain passage describing nonduality that resonate for me.

for me one writer is David M. Hawkins. "the eye of the I" contains several passages that brought tears to my eyes.

another is "one taste" by ken wilber. it's a personal diary, not a book on doctrine or theory. wilber is awesome, imv.

[Anders Lindman]

David M. Hawkins. "the eye of the I" ... "one taste" by ken wilber.

Ken Wilber is cool. He's so super intellectual. And David Hawkins has a very interesting logarithmic scale of emotions.

Here is what Ken Wilber writes about Hawkins' book Power vs. Force: "The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior, by David R. Hawkins. Terrifically interesting ideas, but caught in subtle reductionism and the myth of the given. All the "hidden determinants" he mentions in the subtitle are monological instead of tetra-logical." -- From the book Integral Spirituality

What Wilber means by tetra-logical is that existence must be seen from not only the material objective perspective, but also from the subjective inner perspective (both individual and collective).

[intruder]

go deeper....

see Stan Tenen's, Squaring The Circle: The One and The Many;MInd and World.

www.meru.org

Why be "imprisoned" by duality...

imminent/transcendent

[tru3]

Ken Wilber is cool. He's so super intellectual. And David Hawkins has a very interesting logarithmic scale of emotions.

Here is what Ken Wilber writes about Hawkins' book Power vs. Force: "The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior, by David R. Hawkins. Terrifically interesting ideas, but caught in subtle reductionism and the myth of the given. All the "hidden determinants" he mentions in the subtitle are monological instead of tetra-logical." -- From the book Integral Spirituality

What Wilber means by tetra-logical is that existence must be seen from not only the material objective perspective, but also from the subjective inner perspective (both individual and collective).

huh. thanks for the quote anders.

i used to sit in awe of wilber. i have mixed feelings about his gravitation toward spiral dynamics. i'm not the first to observe that trying to work with and codify different "levels" of consciousness becomes fraught with peril (ironically, this is what he is claiming about hawkins; what excited me initially is that spiral dynamics and hawkins' scale have more similarities in their structure and progression than they do differences.) :confused: . does everyone have to go to "orange school" before they get their green merit badge? force military service for reds before they get their blue badge? the whole thing could end up being pretty fascist, potentially.

i think it's curious that ken would make that observation. i've read just about everything hawkins has ever written, and he states very clearly, time after time, that reality is purely subjective. "hidden determinants" are really just signposts for us to guage our state of consciousness at any given time. i can't move to a "higher state" of consciousness unless i am aware of where i'm at right now. if i'm stranded in the wilderness, a map is useless unless i can find a landmark. if it's foggy outside, i might as well use a white cane. anyway, a map is not the territory, is it? lol :)

anyway, i sort of agree with that idea at this point. hawkins "truth vs. falsehood" was an unfortunate detour, as far as i'm concerned. right now, i'm looking at his second-to-last book, "transcending levels of consciousness: the stairway to enlightenment". looking forward to reading it!

[tru3]

Why be "imprisoned" by duality...

imminent/transcendent

my answer would be "because we are, until we're not". :)

thanks for the link, intruder. interesting...

[Anders Lindman]

i can't move to a "higher state" of consciousness unless i am aware of where i'm at right now.

On a relative level, there are seemingly higher and lower states and so on, but everything is entangled with everything else in a holographic way. This is where David Icke's descriptions are more clear. I have posted this link in another post, but it can be worth repeating here:

http://www.2012.com.au/real_matrix.html

[intruder]

yet the "play" of opposites gives impetus to see, feel, etc....life on a "deeper" level. Perhaps, as Eckhart eloquently points out we're trapping ourselves within "signposts", words...which point to something beyond themselves..

(all of this means NOTHING to to the guy in the unemployment line...whoops, that's not my reality at the moment...what guy anyway!?!?!?)

take up a musical instrument which allows the expression of emotions without verbal filters...verbally elite thought...yet, wait.....I'm saying too much....
ahhhhhhh...breeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeathe..

I "needed" the aid of LSD to realize that my kitchen table IS alive.....
LSD can produce mind diarhhea...as well as a state of NO THOUGHT...just pure bewilderment...words became ineffectual.....I'm not advocating LSD use, and it has been over 22 years since I last ingested....but DAMN, when the stuff was "clean"....me and Albert Hoffman's "problem child" became good friends.

[tru3]

On a relative level, there are seemingly higher and lower states and so on, but everything is entangled with everything else in a holographic way. This is where David Icke's descriptions are more clear. I have posted this link in another post, but it can be worth repeating here:

http://www.2012.com.au/real_matrix.html

yes, but if i am in ignorance, how would i even know that? isn't it like trying to tell a blind man about a blue sky? c'mon, haven't you had conversation about the topics on this forum with your friends and family, and they look at you like dogs watching television? i mean, my dad and i had a moratorium about political discussions; we don't see each other much anyway, and we want to enjoy each others' company.

awareness comes first, does it not? an addict doesn't begin to heal until he says, "there's got to be a better way", when he realizes he is at rock bottom! it's incredible the high tolerance for pain and misery human beings have, but we do. we were built that way!

it's not all an illusion, until it is. so it appears to me.

[Anders Lindman]

it's not all an illusion, until it is. so it appears to me.

Maybe instead of illusion it would be better to call it misperception. And misperceptions can be cleared up by new understandings. And full understanding is, as David Icke has described it, a direct knowing. For example, if I look at a blue sky, then that is a direct knowing, and I don't have to tell other people watching the same blue sky: "Did you know that the sky is blue?". If I did, people would think I was on some weird chemicals or something. lol.

Fear could be a misperception, or at least not a complete knowing. If I told someone: "Did you know that fear is just a misperception, and just by changing perception, the fear can actually be completely removed?" To many people, this too would seem like a crazy idea, but they cannot really be sure if I'm correct or not. Nor can I myself be sure, unless I have a full knowing; that what I said actually was directly known in me. Since I don't know if fear is a misperception or not (yet), it would in this case be more correct for me to say: "Is it possible that fear is just a misperception and that a change of perception actually alters our experiences?".

[intruder]

"before we look at what relevance the expansion and contraction of the universe has to your own life, we need to bear in mind that nothing we say about the nature of the universe should be taken as an absolute truth. Neither concepts nor mathematical formulae can explain the infinite. No thought can encapsulate the vastness of the totality. Reality is a unified whole, but thought cuts it up into fragments. This gives rise to fundamental misperceptions, for example,that there are separate things and events, or that 'this' is the cause of 'that'. Every thought implies a perspective, and every perspective, by its very nature, implies limitation, which ultimately means that it is not true, at least not absolutely. Only the whole is true, but the whole cannot be spoken or thought."

-Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth, p.280-281

can you spot the inherent limitations of language in that quote?

Would not a Zen master turn it around and say...

"NO thought.... CAN encapsulate the whole...."

also, how do you encapsulate a "hole"..?
:)

[tru3]

Maybe instead of illusion it would be better to call it misperception. And misperceptions can be cleared up by new understandings. And full understanding is, as David Icke has described it, a direct knowing. For example, if I look at a blue sky, then that is a direct knowing, and I don't have to tell other people watching the same blue sky: "Did you know that the sky is blue?". If I did, people would think I was on some weird chemicals or something. lol.



that rings true. it's kind of like a "where's waldo" picture; it may take one a little while to find him, but once found, can never really be "un-seen".

you really "see" blue, in all it's holographic glory.

"Look at your basic mind, just simple awareness which is not divided into
sections, the thinking process that exists within you. Just look at that,
see that. Examining does not mean analyzing. It is just viewing things as
they are, in the ordinary sense.

The reason our mind is known as unborn awareness is that we have no
idea of its history. We have no idea where this mind, our crazy mind,
began in the beginning. It has no shape, no color, no particular portrait
or characteristics. It usually flickers on and off, off and on, all the
time. Sometimes it is hibernating, sometimes it is all over the place.
Look at your mind. That is a part of ultimate bodhichitta training or
discipline. Our mind fluctuates constantly, back and forth, forth and
back. Look at that, just look at that!

You could get caught up in the fascination of regarding all dharmas
as dreams and perpetuate unnecessary visions and fantasies of all kinds.
Therefore it is very important to get to this next slogan, "Examine the
nature of unborn awareness." When you look beyond the perceptual level
alone, when you look at your own mind (which you cannot actually do, but
you pretend to do), you find that there is nothing there. You begin to
realize that there is nothing to hold on to. Mind is unborn. But at the
same time, it is awareness, because you still perceive things. Therefore,
you should contemplate that by seeing who is actually perceiving dharmas
as dreams.

If you look further and further, at your mind's root, its base, you
will find that it has no color and no shape. Your mind is, basically
speaking, somewhat blank. There is nothing to it. We are beginning to
cultivate a kind of shunyata possibility; although in this case that
possibility is quite primitive, in the sense of simplicity and
workability. When we look at the root, when we try to find out why we see
things, why we hear sounds, why we feel, and why we smell--if we look
beyond that and beyond that--we find a kind of blankness."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/training.htm

[eternal_spirit]

Tolle's thesis IS irrefutable...YES!! it IS always "NOW"....you can't argue with that.

Also....in the "grand tradition", Tolle's "enlightenment" is another death and resurrection story. He lived in a state of acute mental anguish, depression and so forth....one night, the pain almost became intolerable...and then he heard a voice..."RESIST NOTHING" it said. He awoke in a state of bliss....captivated by the shapes and shadows in his room...light...life.

And then he went on to become a millionaire.


LOl sounds like crap to me. His name sure it shouldn't be spelt TROLL?? Just a thought. :rolleyes:

[eternal_spirit]

It tells you nothing really. Come on think about it.

[peter19]

my thought on tolle is hes the greatest spiritual teacher iv come across so far. profound teachings if you live them. if you dont and just read it all as "intresting" then it most likely will mean nothing.

i think the main thing is to grow in consciousness and hes books sure help with that in my view.

http://www.4shared.com/network/search.jsp?searchmode=2&searchName=eckhart+tolle

[baron von lotsov]

He claims to not be affiliated with ANY religion, but that he draws inspiration from all of them...ALL OF THEM? well, primarily Christianity and Buddhism.
.

Bollox- he's a Luciferian. Look up Findhorn.

[baron von lotsov]

Findhorn - This is the sacred community of the New Age movement, based in Great Britain. Bailey disciple David Spangler, another explicit Luciferian, became co-director of the Findhorn Foundation, when he formed the Lorian Association. He sits on the boards of directors of Planetary Citizens, the secretariat of Planetary Initiative for the World We Choose (launched at the Cathedral of St. John in 1982), and is a contributing editor to New Age Magazine.

But, Lucis is not limited to low-level Satanists. When he was Secretary of Defense in the early-1960s, Robert McNamara prayed to the full moon along the Potomac River, according to journalist Edith Roosevelt. The Lucis Trust endorsed McNamara's tenure as head of the World Bank--which is hardly surprising, since Lucis believes in the Blavatskyian "Great White Brotherhood," which is consistent with the neo-malthusian aim of the International Monetary Fund to exterminate darker-skinned races. [3] Not only does Bailey explicitly seek to destroy the nation state, which she equates with the "idealism" of the Age of Pisces, but in her 1954 work Education in the New Age, she also endorses Nazi eugenics and sex hygiene to purify the race. Apart from U.N. Secretary General Javier Parez de Cuellar, spokesmen for Lucis view Mikhail Gorbachov as the greatest world leader externalizing their "Plan" today.

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/satanism_the_lucifer_trust2.htm

[chandrakavi]

I don't know where you got that definition, wikipedia maybe? part of the 96% control.

at any rate Findhorn was created years ago by 2 CIA PSYCHIATRISTS
BUT YOU WON'T FIND THAT IN WIKIPEDIA OR OTHER CONTROLLED MEDIA will you?

Also the CIA, and its psychologists helped write the book A COURSE IN MIRACLES
and EURANTIA ,a book every one started as a religion, a new christian updated religion.

As David Icke has said "organized religion is a sytem of control"


I have seen and read Eckhardt Tolle,
he has nothing to do with Findhorn,
just making you aware, and meditating,
DOING it and living it, not THINKING about it,
His book THE POWER OF NOW is excellent.

So in your comparison you are mixing apples with oranges,
they are NOT the same
Ekhardt Tolle is real,:)
the others are CIA created!:(
Although these books are exellently well written , they are phonies.

[auron]

His book THE POWER OF NOW is excellent.

I have that. PM me if anyone wants it :)

[seanx]

Was reading this thread - and am now pissed off.

It was a fascinating, open-minded exchange of ideas and observations between Anders Lindman, Tru3 and intruder, ( guys who obviously know
what they are talking about) before it was hijacked by
that usual crowd of morons ...the baron and crew.

Would you please piss off to some other thread where
you can practice your juvenile games and let these guys continue their debate in the atmosphere of genuine open-mindedness.

[baron von lotsov]

LOl sounds like crap to me. His name sure it shouldn't be spelt TROLL?? Just a thought. :rolleyes:



Page five and this is the first person who has come anything like close to ringing the alarm bell marked "Warning: this could seriously brainwash your mind".

Well done.

[seanx]

Hi, here'a a novel suggestion, Baron

READ the f**** book for yourself - and use your OWN mind - and not
just repeat the warped conclusions of your christian puritans .

And if you are not willing to read the book , 'The Power of Now' - then
don't destroy a genuine dialogue that is going on among a group
of people, who unlike you - DO know what they are talking about.

Show some manners.

There are plenty of other threads you can play on.

[anoninnyc]

i found a New Earth to be much more practical and useful than the Power of Now. I would recommend anyone to start with a New Earth and then read his earlier work.

[intruder]

"baron", yes, Eckhart has spoken at Findhorn...And his "Findhorn Retreat" is well worth a listen. You toss out the label "luciferian" without really substantiating it.