I feel embarrassed after being fooled so long.

[jeff_bloomfield]

So it seems that oil, crude, petroleum, whatever you want to call it does not come from the build up and decomposition of decaying dinosaurs and plants.


Here is what Wikipedia says:

"formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions"


This is the fairy tale that has been taught to the stupid peasant people so we would think it was a rare and limited item. The embarrassing part is that we believe it.

It seems that oil is produced naturally by a chemical process deep below us and it is ongoing and replenishing.
Wikipedia also mentions this theory but says it is not generally accepted.

Do you think that oil comes from decayed plant matter? If so, then how come it is found as deep as 6 miles down?

How much plant matter would it take to power this planet as we have been for the last 100 years?

Why is the fairy tale concept taught? Is it to make oil artificially valuable, as has been done with diamonds?

Will it come out as general knowledge that oil is a product of heat, pressure, and chemical processes deep below us?

Can anyone here that believes the fairy tale version explain how the decayed plant matter exists 5 to 6 miles below the surface in many places on Earth.

Do you think that a swamp or a forest accumulated organic matter continuously for hundreds of thousands of years, and then this mass of organic matter stayed together over millions of years and through a journey through 6 miles of the Earths crust, to come out in the end as a nice pool of liquid oil, just waiting to be used?


How about this theory?

Oil is formed continuously by a chemical process deep underground and percolates up till it becomes trapped below non porous rock and forms a pool of oil.

Occam's Razor?

[s00perdr4g00n]

Sorry man, I will have to reply tomorrow, seems very interesting from the gist I read, but its 3am and I need some "sleep" even though I am awake. ;)

[moving finger]

Links?

[merlincove]

This was mentioned a few years ago on the DI headlines pages, though i can't recall the sourses now.

if memory serves (which it hardly does now days :rolleyes:) there was an article that mentioned a closed down oli field / wells that had run dry, and then ten years later was re-opened because the deposit had replenished itself, there were some scientific surveys done and they concluded that oil was a bi-product iof chemical reactions and was actually self replenishing and naturally occuring source.

:D

[frobisher]

If this were proven to be true and then also made public and implemented (unlikely), surely its still not a very clean energy source?

[les_paul_robot]

Exactly!

The idea that oil is a fossil fuel is not prevalent in Russia.

I've been to the North Sea, to oil platforms there. I remember looking out onto all that water and thinking how the hell were there billions of tonnes of forests here to make all this oil under the sea? Never mind that it's bloody freezing up there.

[hadabusa]

i always suspected dinos MAY be a hoax.


op, wether its plant excrements or chemically done, dont matter.

cept if the second is renewable/unlimited.

[graflok]

It's called abioitc oil. Search for that to get more info.

wiki-CIA-pedia denies it of course.

[moving finger]

Exactly!

The idea that oil is a fossil fuel is not prevalent in Russia.

I've been to the North Sea, to oil platforms there. I remember looking out onto all that water and thinking how the hell were there billions of tonnes of forests here to make all this oil under the sea? Never mind that it's bloody freezing up there.

It wasn't freezing in the Carboniferous era when fossil fuels were laid down. Plate tectonics. Continental drift. etc. If the massive deposits of limestone in the world can be formed by tiny little animals, why can't coal, oil & gas reserves be made from decayed organic matter?

Wiki doesn't deny abiotic oil, what it does is report that most petroleum geologists (the people who go out & look for the stuff, including some Russians) don't believe our planet produces it in sufficient quanity. People seem to be trying to find abiotic oil but no-one seems to have found much, whereas petroleum geologists looking in the areas where geological conditions say there should be oil tend to find it. Seems to me that there's room for both philosophies, not an 'either or' debate.

[moving finger]

double post - apologies

[the lorax]

So it seems that oil, crude, petroleum, whatever you want to call it does not come from the build up and decomposition of decaying dinosaurs and plants.



Do you think that oil comes from decayed plant matter? If so, then how come it is found as deep as 6 miles down? Yes, I do. Plants exist in the ocean as well. When they die, they fall to the bottom of the ocean and slowly decay over time.

How much plant matter would it take to power this planet as we have been for the last 100 years? Couldn't tell you an exact number but think about how small of a timescale we as humans have been around, especially the timescale of the past hundred years where we have used oil. Now, think about how many animals and plants existed before us. It's not that hard for me to fathom.

Why is the fairy tale concept taught? Is it to make oil artificially valuable, as has been done with diamonds? Because it's not a fairy tale. It may be true that it is kept artificially high in price like diamonds but that has more to do with hording the supply/sources than it does the natural production of it.

Will it come out as general knowledge that oil is a product of heat, pressure, and chemical processes deep below us? Uhhhh, that's exactly how plants and animals (read organic material) decompose. Thanks for proving what I'm trying to say. Materials would not decay without chemical reactions. That's how they decay.

Can anyone here that believes the fairy tale version explain how the decayed plant matter exists 5 to 6 miles below the surface in many places on Earth. See explanation above. Plant/animal remains fall to the bottom of the ocean and decay there.

Do you think that a swamp or a forest accumulated organic matter continuously for hundreds of thousands of years, and then this mass of organic matter stayed together over millions of years and through a journey through 6 miles of the Earths crust, to come out in the end as a nice pool of liquid oil, just waiting to be used? Go do some of your own research, i don't even want to fully respond to this "point" of yours.


More people need to study ecology and how the biosphere works. It's truly interesting how our planet works to sustain life.
Oil is in fact, a renewable resource that comes from decayed organic matter it's just not a sustainable one at the rate that we use it. It does renew itself, just over a much longer scale of time than most of us can imagine. the processes that form oil take a very long time. Fathoming/observing the formation of oil is like trying to fathom/observe the speed of evolution. you can't think of it in the scale of human lifespans.


You are not incorrect in saying that oil comes from algae but it does not come from the preservation of it. how would oil form from organic matter being preserved? Scientists and entrepreneurs have been working together to create oil from algae as an alternative energy source but the process is very costly. the oil is obtained by the breakdown of the oil, usually through photochemical reactions. Google algae oil.

[elite slayer]

If oil is supposed to be plant and animal remains then why isn't it everywhere on the planet? There is vegetation rotting everywhere at a regular rate. Why isn't the oil everywhere in a thin ribbon at the same depth spread out instead of billions of gallons in one place and nothing in another?

[graflok]

Wiki doesn't deny abiotic oil ...

This what wik-CIA-pedia says about it:

Although the abiogenic hypothesis was accepted by some geologists in the former Soviet Union, most geologists now consider the biogenic formation of petroleum scientifically supported.


In my book that is an invalidation of abiotic oil, hence my comment that wiki
denies it.

[graflok]

If oil is supposed to be plant and animal remains then why isn't it everywhere on the planet? There is vegetation rotting everywhere at a regular rate. Why isn't the oil everywhere in a thin ribbon at the same depth spread out instead of billions of gallons in one place and nothing in another?

One of the forum's debunkers will be along in a moment to give a completely BS answer
to your question. It's a heavy traffic day for them so thank you for your patience. :)

[ex sheep]

Exactly!

The idea that oil is a fossil fuel is not prevalent in Russia.

I've been to the North Sea, to oil platforms there. I remember looking out onto all that water and thinking how the hell were there billions of tonnes of forests here to make all this oil under the sea? Never mind that it's bloody freezing up there.
:D
He he, lol, yes its the simple things that make the official explanation of our history look ridiculous, that we were indoctrinated into through our "education".

[pri01]

Exactly!

The idea that oil is a fossil fuel is not prevalent in Russia.

I've been to the North Sea, to oil platforms there. I remember looking out onto all that water and thinking how the hell were there billions of tonnes of forests here to make all this oil under the sea? Never mind that it's bloody freezing up there.

That's a really good point, I never thought of that. There is the possibility that the terrain many millions of years ago was very different. After all, it's been postulated that the Gaza platau in Egypt was once a habitat to a much wetter environment. But that could be poo too. Excellent point.

[the lorax]

If oil is supposed to be plant and animal remains then why isn't it everywhere on the planet? There is vegetation rotting everywhere at a regular rate. Why isn't the oil everywhere in a thin ribbon at the same depth spread out instead of billions of gallons in one place and nothing in another?

It's because the conditions for oil to form are very specific, therefore do not occur everywhere/frequently. Just as it takes very specific conditions for different types of minerals to form. Go ahead and call me a debunker, I'm just spreading scientific information rather than heresay and speculation. Look at my posts, you'll see I'm no debunker.




Anyways, here's a good article explaining both ideas mentioned in this thread. It's from 2005 so the prices are outdated but the information is good:
http://www.livescience.com/environment/051011_oil_origins.html

Quotes from the article:
Biogenic theory:
In the leading theory, dead organic material accumulates on the bottom of oceans, riverbeds or swamps, mixing with mud and sand. Over time, more sediment piles on top and the resulting heat and pressure transforms the organic layer into a dark and waxy substance known as kerogen.

Left alone, the kerogen molecules eventually crack, breaking up into shorter and lighter molecules composed almost solely of carbon and hydrogen atoms. Depending on how liquid or gaseous this mixture is, it will turn into either petroleum or natural gas.

Abiogenic Theory:
This so-called "abiogenic" petroleum might seep upward through cracks formed by asteroid impacts to form underground pools, according to one hypothesis. Some geologists have suggested probing ancient impact craters in the search for oil.

Abiogenic sources of oil have been found, but never in commercially profitable amounts. The controversy isn't over whether naturally forming oil reserves exist, said Larry Nation of the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. It's over how much they contribute to Earth's overall reserves and how much time and effort geologists should devote to seeking them out.

If abiogenic petroleum sources are indeed found to be abundant, it would mean Earth contains vast reserves of untapped petroleum and, since other rocky objects formed from the same raw material as Earth, that crude oil might exist on other planets or moons in the solar system, scientists say.

[lordzoma]

Oil is the life blood of the planet.

[elite slayer]

It's because the conditions for oil to form are very specific, therefore do not occur everywhere/frequently. Just as it takes very specific conditions for different types of minerals to form. Go ahead and call me a debunker, I'm just spreading scientific information rather than heresay and speculation. Look at my posts, you'll see I'm no debunker.



Not saying you are a debunker but I just don't buy the explanation. The old vegetation and animal matter could never add up to the billions of gallons taken from some oil fields.

[the lorax]

Not saying you are a debunker but I just don't buy the explanation. The old vegetation and animal matter could never add up to the billions of gallons taken from some oil fields.

why not? if you're going to make a statement like that you have to at least attempt to back it up.

[jeff_bloomfield]

Has anyone ever seen what is under an old forest or old swamp?

You find a few inches or few feet of organic matter, sometimes as much as 20 feet like in beds of peat. Below the organic matter you get rock, sand, and gravel, until you hit bedrock.

So on Earth right now the deepest organic layers are 20 feet maximum. Somehow this 20 feet of plant matter will stay together for the next 100 million years and be transformed into a gigantic pool of oil the size of a small lake. Lets not forget to place it 6 miles down too.


You show me a place on Earth that is at least 100 miles by 100 miles, with accumulated organic matter that is at least 2500 feet thick and I will believe this fairy tale. Does anybody have any idea how large oil fields are? They are huge in human terms.

How many cubic feet of organic matter would be needed to make a gallon of oil? Anyone know?

[jeff_bloomfield]

I said;

Quote:
Do you think that a swamp or a forest accumulated organic matter continuously for hundreds of thousands of years, and then this mass of organic matter stayed together over millions of years and through a journey through 6 miles of the Earths crust, to come out in the end as a nice pool of liquid oil, just waiting to be used?

the lorax said;

Go do some of your own research, i don't even want to fully respond to this "point" of yours.

I kinda thought this argument of mine would be the one that appeared too stupid to even reply to. It also looks like this argument may be also too hard to reply to.

[elite slayer]

Has anyone ever seen what is under an old forest or old swamp?

You find a few inches or few feet of organic matter, sometimes as much as 20 feet like in beds of peat. Below the organic matter you get rock, sand, and gravel, until you hit bedrock.

So on Earth right now the deepest organic layers are 20 feet maximum. Somehow this 20 feet of plant matter will stay together for the next 100 million years and be transformed into a gigantic pool of oil the size of a small lake. Lets not forget to place it 6 miles down too.


You show me a place on Earth that is at least 100 miles by 100 miles, with accumulated organic matter that is at least 2500 feet thick and I will believe this fairy tale. Does anybody have any idea how large oil fields are? They are huge in human terms.


I agree Jeff. They must think everybody is a dumb city slicker who has never even dug a hole with a shovel. Anyone who has seen an archeological dig or even dug a hole in a swamp knows it doesn't go down for 100s of feet. The ground is composed of layers of things that have fallen in place. You just can't convince these oil company men of that. ;)

[the lorax]

I agree Jeff. They must think everybody is a dumb city slicker who has never even dug a hole with a shovel. Anyone who has seen an archeological dig or even dug a hole in a swamp knows it doesn't go down for 100s of feet. The ground is composed of layers of things that have fallen in place. You just can't convince these oil company men of that. ;)

i've been on digs and i'm a natural resources management major. i know the composition of soil/earth and it's layers. i won't deny that oil may come from both sources debated here but i don't believe that it's solely from a abiogenic process. there is a lot that we do not know about the earth and it's workings. anything could be true in the end.

[elite slayer]

i've been on digs and i'm a natural resources management major. i know the composition of soil/earth and it's layers. i won't deny that oil may come from both sources debated here but i don't believe that it's solely from a abiogenic process. there is a lot that we do not know about the earth and it's workings. anything could be true in the end.

I agree that it could be both. If you squeeze a plant hard enough you get some oil out of it. But I believe the vast majority of it (the stuff they drill for) is abiotic and a lot of oil wells are replenishing themselves. The amount of oil that has been pumped out of them over the years could be measured in cubic miles.

[graflok]

On this planet if there's big money involved in something, chances are there is
a scam in it.

[moving finger]

Has anyone ever seen what is under an old forest or old swamp?

You find a few inches or few feet of organic matter, sometimes as much as 20 feet like in beds of peat. Below the organic matter you get rock, sand, and gravel, until you hit bedrock.

So on Earth right now the deepest organic layers are 20 feet maximum. Somehow this 20 feet of plant matter will stay together for the next 100 million years and be transformed into a gigantic pool of oil the size of a small lake. Lets not forget to place it 6 miles down too.


You show me a place on Earth that is at least 100 miles by 100 miles, with accumulated organic matter that is at least 2500 feet thick and I will believe this fairy tale. Does anybody have any idea how large oil fields are? They are huge in human terms.

How many cubic feet of organic matter would be needed to make a gallon of oil? Anyone know?

Those forests and swamps have been accumulating organic matter for only a few thousand years, if that. Multiply that by millions of years of organic accumulation, then add compression & its associated physical and chemical changes. Yes, the oilfields are huge in human terms. So are coal seams, limestone resources and so on and so on. Large scale does not equal impossible.

Swamps in particular are best for accumulating oragnic matter because they remain anaerobic, which prevents the decay of organic matter. Landfill sites, swamps and other sites where organic matter has been allowed to decay anaerobically even over a relatively short time are well known for producing methane & other flammable gases in quantities. There are even companies that use this natural biologically produced gas to produce energy.

How much to produce one gallon?

Here are some calculations 98 tons per gallon (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-10/uou-bm9102603.php).

To put that in some sort of context, the world produces 580000000 tonnes (http://www.fas.usda.gov/wap/circular/2003/03-02/Grains.pdf) per year of wheat alone

[les_paul_robot]

It wasn't freezing in the Carboniferous era when fossil fuels were laid down. Plate tectonics. Continental drift. etc. If the massive deposits of limestone in the world can be formed by tiny little animals, why can't coal, oil & gas reserves be made from decayed organic matter?
In this Carboniferous era was the North Sea area actually dry land?
Or are you saying dead seals and seaweed piling up is what made the crude oil?

[dedicate]

How deep the rabbit hole goes!

What usually throws the scientist is the evidence that all organic matter was at one time part of a living body, usually a tree or shrub, maybe some grass. Mica for example is actually petrified leaves. Oil shows evidence of it at one time being living organic matter, so the assumption has been forced on us about prehistoric swamps -- millions of them -- being buried under ?????... volcanoe eruptions maybe.. or under tons of other maybes and could be's and might-have-beens,,, to the exclusion of a living Earth theory.

[ultima1]

How deep the rabbit hole goes!

What usually throws the scientist is the evidence that all organic matter was at one time part of a living body

Isn't that like the pieces of rock of the astroid belt are made up of the same minerals thats in the human body?

[mitch_lane]

Thomas Gold wrote a book about oil being some sort of micro organism that continually replenishes itself. I think that the book was called Deep Hot Biosphere. Might be of interest to some here.

[_tzupidity]

Oil is the life blood of the planet.

[...]so the assumption has been forced on us about prehistoric swamps -- millions of them -- being buried under ?????... volcanoe eruptions maybe.. or under tons of other maybes and could be's and might-have-beens,,, to the exclusion of a living Earth theory.

Is this related to the theory that all the earthquakes etc are being caused by oil being taken out of the earth?

[piskavac]

So it seems that oil, crude, petroleum, whatever you want to call it does not come from the build up and decomposition of decaying dinosaurs and plants.


Here is what Wikipedia says:

"formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions"


IMO, We cannot relieve in Wikipedia. It is still need to go to the libraries if we want do some realy serious researches. And again, we can't be sure about information we gathered.

[guuna]

interesting, i've not heard this theory before.:)

[guuna]

Is this related to the theory that all the earthquakes etc are being caused by oil being taken out of the earth?

mm..could relate to the Gaia theory of the planet as a living organism.