Proof we don't have souls

[whatistruth]

Substance Dualism *Mirror* - YouTube

Soul believers - owned.


And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."

BAM
Open-mindedness - YouTube

Owned.

After watching these videos you may still believe you have a soul, but you at least must accept is a completely irrational idea based on pure fantasy.

[kacilee123]

the devil owns your soul its written on the back of your birth certificate in invisible ink

[kappy0405]

or maybe "non physical substance" just refers to physical substance that is simply so small (subatomic) that we don't perceive it as being physical. In this case, the comparison to light waves and sound waves as suggested in the video is justified.

or maybe all things physical shouldn't actually be called physical, because all things are made up of building blocks that science has proven to be 99.999% non-physical.

All things considered - no one was 'owned'.

what people call physical and what people call non-physical is the same thing. Someone with bias just prefers one explanation to the other.

[nectars]

At it again eh lol

[metacomet]

Damn, I couldn't get through the first video.

The guy started talking about how when you take a picture of the ocean actual water will not come out of your viewfinder so ________ .

I don't care what points he's trying to make, the analogies are so bogus and simple minded and based on common sense...

I think this is just a good example video of someone using an accent and good video editing skills to push simple concepts and arguments as something bigger than it really is... and alot of people seem to think foreign accent + seemingly intelligent concepts + good video editing = professional opinion.

Nay. And even if it were professional opinion, of course professional opinion will not bother with the idea of a soul...

The OP video starts off immediately dismissing the idea of non-physical objects. This demonstrates that the OP video narrator is immediately denying that anything outside of this physical plane of existence is real - which means it's absolutely pointless listening to him discuss the topic.

Would you bother listening to a deaf person give a lecture about sound? What if they don't believe sound even exists?

Why should we waste time listening to someone who refuses to acknowledge the non-physical - yack about the soul?

[jthrale]

haha gotta love topics when someone posts a video and then just writes "owned" after it. That must take so much thought.

[elirien]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2upDm-xFqMo
Soul believers - owned.


And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."

BAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=related
Owned.

After watching these videos you may still believe you have a soul, but you at least must accept is a completely irrational idea based on pure fantasy.

Well the first video says that dualism is crap which is completely true although it confuses identity and consciousness. Identity is formed by bodily phenomena and as such is bound to what one chooses to be mainly conscious of for example a body conscious identity declares that he/she is a marathon runner. In expression: "I am a marathon runner". Disected it means: I am (identification prefix), a marathon runner (identification of body movement). Identity as such is formed from connecting a stable and a non stable element (again dualism).

The second video talks again quite a lot about dualism which he kind of debunked in the first video anyway. If something is true which everything is already what good can do evidence? His analogy with the evidence filter for example is the calling card for dualism and chance which we don't know what he means. He even creates duality out of acceptance which is quite funny :D

For example again if someone would say "You are a flying reptilian pinball hunter" we would just have to see what that means. You are/I am (identification prefix) blah blah (identification of something). This means that he/she is seeing a flying reptilian pinball hunter and perhaps trying to project and convince the self about that vision (basic hypnosis). There is no evidence or proof for that needed. Good/Bad for that being.

As far as can be seen the writer is taking a concept applying dualism to it and than saying dualism is bad and destroys that illusion which he just an instant before "created".

What has that to do with soul? Soul is quite big as such it can take billions of dualism in it. Which we can create then destroy without losing any integrity. The soul is one and not a New Ager :D Although it can be if you'd like :D

[elirien]

Why should we waste time listening to someone who refuses to acknowledge the non-physical - yack about the soul?

But that's the thing. He plays with concepts and since concepts are illusions every one has free reign over it. Yack on about it, shout at it, love it, hate it, think they are the self etc. It's quite fun in its own right but isn't life more then just play ball?

haha gotta love topics when someone posts a video and then just writes "owned" after it. That must take so much thought.

WIN :D

[tannah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2upDm-xFqMo

Soul believers - owned.


And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."

BAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=related

Owned.

After watching these videos you may still believe you have a soul, but you at least must accept is a completely irrational idea based on pure fantasy.

Phew! I reckon in a parallel universe an Orli has just posted this, and you wrote back that your God is sending him to hell.:D

[fist fury]

how to prove the soul doesn't exist:

chop your arm off, you will feel pain and deal with some deep issues. but your personality will remain the same.

chop your head off, and you will simply die.

chop your genitals off, now that might change a lot more than your personality.

this proves, there is no such thing as a soul, than different parts working together.

[elirien]

how to prove the soul doesn't exist:

chop your arm off, you will feel pain and deal with some deep issues. but your personality will remain the same.

chop your head off, and you will simply die.

chop your genitals off, now that might change a lot more than your personality.

this proves, there is no such thing as a soul, than different parts working together.

Soul is not personality.

[montag]

The video is correct, there is no dualism of physical and non-physical.

There is only consciousness (I am), physical and non physical are mere thought constructs (illusion).

:D

[fist fury]

Soul is not personality.

Then were does your personality come from?

If the "soul" is not responsible for each person's unique persona, then it's not much a soul as it is a vague "life force" that is independent of the individual and permeates in all matter. Either way there is no soul.

[montag]

Then were does your personality come from?


Ego..

[tannah]

how to prove the soul doesn't exist:

chop your arm off, you will feel pain and deal with some deep issues. but your personality will remain the same.

chop your head off, and you will simply die.

chop your genitals off, now that might change a lot more than your personality.

this proves, there is no such thing as a soul, than different parts working together.

But it doesn't. It could also be true that the relationship and balance between vessel and occupier has been changed.

Also, one only sees death from the perspective of being alive. You can't verify the idea of coming out of your body, for example, until you yourself lose the use of the physical vessel.

If your watching tv and someone cuts off half the screen, you are still whole, but your relationship with the Star Wars Trilogy is seriously hampered.

[elirien]

Then were does your personality come from?

From identification with past.


If the "soul" is not responsible for each person's unique persona, then it's not much a soul as it is a vague "life force" that is independent of the individual and permeates in all matter. Either way there is no soul.

Yes. Who said it is "your soul" :D That soul you speak of is not evident. Very true.

[monkyies]

Proof of the soul is IN the soul. By meditation under the guidance of a living master, you can know yourself as soul.

[kappy0405]

....does a soul necessarily have to be non-physical in a literal sense anyway?

[monkyies]

....does a soul necessarily have to be non-physical in a literal sense anyway?

The soul is non physical. The soul came from a very high level of spirituality. We would have to meditate a lot to reach the actual soul.

Even if we were to reach the astral or causal region, we would still not have reached the soul plane. That would still be the mind planes.

The soul is found in higher regions. It is a drop of spirituality, that has left the ocean of spirituality.

If we want to know ourselves as soul, God will guide us to a living Master, and we will even realize the Supreme Being.

One such living Master is named Michael Martin. You can comment or ask questions to him here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/

[1964]

God's knowledge and His wisdom far surpasses that of man. If you never humble yourself to the fact that there is something greater than yourself, then you'll never know anything greater, until it's finally too late. The videos in the OP are no more pursuasive (to me) than if one mouse claimed to be above all the other mice that are trapped in the same maze as him. Science is nothing more than self-exultation against and above that which is the knowledge of God - the One Whose mind our own minds cannot even contain.

[monkyies]

God's knowledge and His wisdom far surpasses that of man. If you never humble yourself to the fact that there is something greater than yourself, then you'll never know anything greater, until it's finally too late. The videos in the OP are no more pursuasive (to me) than if one mouse claimed to be above all the other mice that are trapped in the same maze as him. Science is nothing more than self-exultation against and above that which is the knowledge of God - the One Whose mind our own minds cannot even contain.

It's kind of like the analogy of the frog in the well. The frog thinks that the whole world is in his well, and that there can be nothing beyond it.

Then another frog falls inside this well, and tells the first frog of another world outside of the well. He describes the beauty of the outside world with it's rivers and oceans and abundant life and light.

But the frog in the well tells the second frog that his well is the only world that there is, and does not believe him.

We as humans are in the same predicament. We do not understand the Guru Avatars as they really are. They come from the Spiritual Sky of the heavens, and try to bring us back there with us.

[kappy0405]

The soul is non physical. The soul came from a very high level of spirituality. We would have to meditate a lot to reach the actual soul.

When I think of non-physical, I'm thinking of what we can't perceive as being physical. Basically, atoms and their elementary particles are non-physical. How do you know that the soul is completely non physical in a literal sense? Does any religious book specifically say this?

Religions say that the essence/spirit of 'God' is supposed to be within all of creation. Science says that non-physical (not literally) subatomic particles are within all of creation.

The soul is found in higher regions. It is a drop of spirituality, that has left the ocean of spirituality.perhaps the ocean of spirituality is just a massive ocean of the tiniest subatomic particles that we haven't discovered yet. As those particles became conscious of themselves & condensed, they separated into those drops (souls) and eventually entered into physical bodies (merely a more dense collection of particles).

I don't think that contradicts the idea that the soul is 'found in higher regions' or that we'd have to 'meditate a lot to reach the soul' like you said, etc..

[monkyies]

When I think of non-physical, I'm thinking of what we can't perceive as being physical. Basically, atoms and their elementary particles are non-physical. How do you know that the soul is completely non physical in a literal sense? Does any religious book specifically say this?

-Alright, I see what you're saying now. Yes we can perceive atoms, with a microscope, but we cannot even perceive mind with any human instruments. Mind is a finer form of matter.

We call soul non physical, because what it it really is, is, at such a higher level of perception. It still is "something." it's not absolutely nothing. It's still a creation of God.

God is what we can call completely non physical non spiritual, because he is before any manifestation.

Soul is made out of spirit, or light. It is called a drop of spirituality. What it's composed of is very very refined, we can only call it spirit. Even atoms can be seen as light, but spirit is much more refined and at much higher vibratory level we could never imagine. We can only perceive it with meditation.

-----------------------------

Religions say that the essence/spirit of 'God' is supposed to be within all of creation. Science says that non-physical (not literally) subatomic particles are within all of creation.

-Those subatomic particles are a denser form of creation. I know it is hard to believe that there is something even more refined than those flashes of light seen under an advanced microscope, but there is.

Even mind is more refined than what we can see under a telescope, let alone soul spirit.

perhaps the ocean of spiritually is just a massive ocean of the tiniest subatomic particles that we haven't discovered yet.

-We are talking only of the physical universe. This physical universe, with all of its subatomic particles, is just a tiny spec in the ocean of spirituality. This physical universe is the smallest part of creation. There are much MUCH more vast areas of creation above this one.

As those particles became conscious of themselves & condensed, they separated into those drops (souls) and eventually entered into physical bodies (merely a more dense collection of particles).

-Even mind is more refined than those atoms. Deeper, much deeper within those atoms is mind, then even deeper, far beyond our perception is soul, and then at the absolute core is God.

I don't think that contradicts the idea that the soul is 'found in higher regions' or that we'd have to 'meditate a lot to reach the soul' like you said, etc..

-Well we can perceive those atomic light particles under a microscope. We cannot perceive anything underneath that. But there are much deeper higher frequences we cannot see or understand.

Using the laborator of the body, and the microscope of the third eye, we can investigate these things for ourselves using meditation, under the guidance of a living Master who himself frequents those realms every day.

[kappy0405]

When I think of non-physical, I'm thinking of what we can't perceive as being physical. Basically, atoms and their elementary particles are non-physical. How do you know that the soul is completely non physical in a literal sense? Does any religious book specifically say this?-Alright, I see what you're saying now. Yes we can perceive atoms, with a microscope, but we cannot even perceive mind with any human instruments. Mind is a finer form of matter.

We call soul non physical, because what it it really is, is, at such a higher level of perception. It still is "something." it's not absolutely nothing. It's still a creation of God.

God is what we can call completely non physical non spiritual, because he is before any manifestation.

Soul is made out of spirit, or light. It is called a drop of spirituality. What it's composed of is very very refined, we can only call it spirit. Even atoms can be seen as light, but spirit is much more refined and at much higher vibratory level we could never imagine. We can only perceive it with meditation.okay, I think we're on the same page now.. my point was then, that technically this can still be considered physical, even though it is at a much higher vibrational frequency and made of a far less dense composition.

the argument in the op is completely dependent on the idea that the soul must be 100% free of any composition..Religions say that the essence/spirit of 'God' is supposed to be within all of creation. Science says that non-physical (not literally) subatomic particles are within all of creationThose subatomic particles are a denser form of creation. I know it is hard to believe that there is something even more refined than those flashes of light seen under an advanced microscope, but there is.I'm with you on that.. but again, technically speaking, that could still be considered physical, even though we can't quite understand it yet. This makes the arguments in the OP completely unfounded from the beginning.well we can perceive those atomic light particles under a microscope. We cannot perceive anything underneath that. But there are much deeper higher frequences we cannot see or understand.

Using the laborator of the body, and the microscope of the third eye, we can investigate these things for ourselves using meditation, under the guidance of a living Master who himself frequents those realms every day.I agree with you..

at the same time, perhaps one day scientific technology will be able to see that much further... because after all, it is physical (technically) even if only on a level we still can't comprehend.

[whatistruth]

So let me get this straight, now you're saying the soul may be physical after all?

Is there no end to the mental gymnastics people will play to convince themselves they're going to live forever?

[noewhan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2upDm-xFqMo

Soul believers - owned.


And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."

BAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=related

Owned.

After watching these videos you may still believe you have a soul, but you at least must accept is a completely irrational idea based on pure fantasy.

But what is a soul in this regard? A connection to God, or just a consciousness? (Yes, I haven't seen the video yet, because youtube owned the video / bandwidth ;) ;)

proof that youtube is sucking more eggs daily.

[kappy0405]

So let me get this straight, now you're saying the soul may be physical after all?I'm saying that whether we call it physical or non-physical is semantics.

It could be called non-physical in the sense that even atoms are 99.999% non-physical (and there are particles even less physical/smaller than that!), and it could be called physical because in the end, those same particles, as they condense, eventually are the building blocks of what we call matter and perceive as physical.

Is there no end to the mental gymnastics people will play to convince themselves they're going to live forever?I don't see why you'd call it mental gymnastics. It's basically just acknowledging that science and spirituality might go hand in hand in some regards. This isn't exactly a new belief either.. Alchemy, one of the original scientific fields, was basically all about the relationship between matter and spirit.

[tannah]

Soul is made out of spirit, or light. It is called a drop of spirituality. What it's composed of is very very refined, we can only call it spirit. Even atoms can be seen as light, but spirit is much more refined and at much higher vibratory level we could never imagine. We can only perceive it with meditation.



Is soul not an experiencer? Meditation is a wonderful tool, but your Soul can be moved through other things that are frequency based, like music. It's the law of octaves that achieves this.

The note C exists at 1 hertz, 2 hertz, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 , 128 etc. Any doubling or halving of a number produces an octave.

Ok, after 20,000 hertz most of us can't perceive sound, but who says we don't perceive the relationships created by sound at a higher level?

Say the first line of Frere Jacques boils down to the notes G-A-B-G....396 hertz, 432 hertz and 480 hertz. It's also true that it exists as 792, 864 and 960, and so on. Therefore I suggest the Soul "hears" this tune as Light, at a very high frequency. The relationship is unbroken, and the wavelengths relating to the EM spectrum do not contradict those in the sound spectrum. And then who is to say this relationship ever ends. It has the potential to be infinite, from ground up..

[monkyies]

okay, I think we're on the same page now.. my point was then, that technically this can still be considered physical, even though it is at a much higher vibrational frequency and made of a far less dense composition.

the argument in the op is completely dependent on the idea that the soul must be 100% free of any composition..I'm with you on that.. but again, technically speaking, that could still be considered physical, even though we can't quite understand it yet. This makes the arguments in the OP completely unfounded from the beginning.I agree with you..

at the same time, perhaps one day scientific technology will be able to see that much further... because after all, it is physical (technically) even if only on a level we still can't comprehend.

I just think that spirit or soul is at such a higher level, we cannot compare it to physical things.

It really is something special, and is in itself completely free from matter, they say.

When it comes to mind, on the other hand, we can say that mind is just refined matter. It is a mixture of spirit and matter.

But spirit is in of itself something that we cannot comprehend. We say that it is still "something" and so it is physical, but what that "something" is, is so far beyond our ideas that it deserves a little more respect.

[monkyies]

I agree with you..

at the same time, perhaps one day scientific technology will be able to see that much further... because after all, it is physical (technically) even if only on a level we still can't comprehend.

-I definately don't think we could ever use technology to perceive soul. Maybe mind. Yes we may be able to do things with mind. But not the soul.

Can a person in a dream use anything within that dream to perceive the waking day?

No, he has to "wake up" before he can do that.

[monkyies]

So let me get this straight, now you're saying the soul may be physical after all?

Is there no end to the mental gymnastics people will play to convince themselves they're going to live forever?


Soul is not physical. It is beyond the "dream" that this world is. It is made up of something we cannot begin to understand.

[monkyies]

I'm saying that whether we call it physical or non-physical is semantics.[/B]

It could be called non-physical in the sense that even atoms are 99.999% non-physical (and there are particles even less physical/smaller than that!), and it could be called physical because in the end, those same particles, as they condense, eventually are the building blocks of what we call matter and perceive as physical.

-You cannot perceive that which is out of the realm of the physical universe, with just physical instruments. It's not possible. But by meditate we can. We can see the depths of the physical realm with microscopes, but not further than that. We cannot even see the mind realms even with higher technology. You don't understand how it's illogical? It's like a person in a dream using things in the dream to perceive the waking world.

I don't see why you'd call it mental gymnastics. It's basically just acknowledging that science and spirituality might go hand in hand in some regards. This isn't exactly a new belief either.. Alchemy, one of the original scientific fields, was basically all about the relationship between matter and spirit.

-Science can go only so far. It can put us in the right direction, yes. But it cannot pierce the veil, no. Only our third eye can do that. No microscope can do the meditation for you lol.

[kappy0405]

I just think that spirit or soul is at such a higher level, we cannot compare it to physical things.

It really is something special, and is in itself completely free from matter, they say.

When it comes to mind, on the other hand, we can say that mind is just refined matter. It is a mixture of spirit and matter.

But spirit is in of itself something that we cannot comprehend. We say that it is still "something" and so it is physical, but what that "something" is, is so far beyond our ideas that it deserves a little more respect.

again, I agree.. It is pretty awesome and definitely worth appreciating, respecting and being inspired by.

I feel weird downplaying it as well, but technically speaking, it is what it is & the 'debunkers' really don't have much of an argument based on the fact.

[tannah]

So let me get this straight, now you're saying the soul may be physical after all?

Is there no end to the mental gymnastics people will play to convince themselves they're going to live forever?

Physical is just a spectrum of frequencies. Does a photon exist, is it physical or outside of time? What is "physical" without the existence of a photon?

[monkyies]

Is soul not an experiencer?

-The soul itself is very deep. It is experiencing UNDERNEATH many layers. Layers of mind and matter and karma.

Meditation is a wonderful tool, but your Soul can be moved through other things that are frequency based, like music. It's the law of octaves that achieves this.

-The soul itself is covered by many things, and music of this world would just be another addition over the physical body.

The note C exists at 1 hertz, 2 hertz, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 , 128 etc. Any doubling or halving of a number produces an octave.

-We perceive music through the mental bodies, then through the physical organs, first. It is not direct perception that we hear music in this physical universe.

Ok, after 20,000 hertz most of us can't perceive sound, but who says we don't perceive the relationships created by sound at a higher level?

-We can perceive higher sounds, yes. Those sounds are perceived by the soul, though, not by the physical ears. We can also see light that is of a higher nature, but not with these physical eyes.

Say the first line of Frere Jacques boils down to the notes G-A-B-G....396 hertz, 432 hertz and 480 hertz. It's also true that it exists as 792, 864 and 960, and so on. Therefore I suggest the Soul "hears" this tune as Light, at a very high frequency.

-We would need meditation to hear higher frequencies that the physical ears cannot hear. I'm sure there are many frequencise our physical ears hear, but there are higher ones also that they cannot. It is our finer sense of hearing and seeing of the soul, that emmanates from the higher regions.

The relationship is unbroken, and the wavelengths relating to the EM spectrum do not contradict those in the sound spectrum. And then who is to say this relationship ever ends. It has the potential to be infinite, from ground up..

-The source of the sounds and light is the Supreme Being.

[monkyies]

again, I agree.. It is pretty awesome and definitely worth appreciating, respecting and being inspired by.

I feel weird downplaying it as well, but technically speaking, it is what it is & the 'debunkers' really don't have much of an argument based on the fact.

I think that we sometimes get confused between spirt/soul and mind. There are higher levels that are actually just mind, which is a more subtle form of physical matter. That may be more of what you're talking about.

In the beginning, the spiritual ocean had drops of itself descend from it, and reach lower realms. Then these drops took the company of mind, to perceive mind regions, and then the mind took on the physical human body.

Maybe we can perceive mind, I guess, if we had the tools. I think they say that we are getting technology to see people's dreams. That's about all I know about technology, but that is still dealing with lower mind realms. The higher or even sub astral realms are out of reach from physical technology, I'd say, but I can't be certain.

[tannah]

Is soul not an experiencer?

-The soul itself is very deep. It is experiencing UNDERNEATH many layers. Layers of mind and matter and karma.

Meditation is a wonderful tool, but your Soul can be moved through other things that are frequency based, like music. It's the law of octaves that achieves this.

-The soul itself is covered by many things, and music of this world would just be another addition over the physical body.

The note C exists at 1 hertz, 2 hertz, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 , 128 etc. Any doubling or halving of a number produces an octave.

-We perceive music through the mental bodies, then through the physical organs, first. It is not direct perception that we hear music in this physical universe.

Ok, after 20,000 hertz most of us can't perceive sound, but who says we don't perceive the relationships created by sound at a higher level?

-We can perceive higher sounds, yes. Those sounds are perceived by the soul, though, not by the physical ears. We can also see light that is of a higher nature, but not with these physical eyes.

Say the first line of Frere Jacques boils down to the notes G-A-B-G....396 hertz, 432 hertz and 480 hertz. It's also true that it exists as 792, 864 and 960, and so on. Therefore I suggest the Soul "hears" this tune as Light, at a very high frequency.

-We would need meditation to hear higher frequencies that the physical ears cannot hear. I'm sure there are many frequencise our physical ears hear, but there are higher ones also that they cannot. It is our finer sense of hearing and seeing of the soul, that emmanates from the higher regions.

The relationship is unbroken, and the wavelengths relating to the EM spectrum do not contradict those in the sound spectrum. And then who is to say this relationship ever ends. It has the potential to be infinite, from ground up..

-The source of the sounds and light is the Supreme Being.

Nature has left us a path to soul. An unbroken thread, and it will culminate to the realization of one's Soul. Meditation is key, true. But it depends on what one is meditating on. With more knowledge and understanding one meditates accordingly.

I have to disagree on one point. There is a scientific way to make the existence of the Soul a reality here. And it is the very thing myself and a colleque are divising experiments for. Obviously mainstream science doesn't want to bother with such experiments, but the John Templeton Foundation, for example, does.


The mission of the John Templeton Foundation is to serve as a philanthropic catalyst for discovery in areas engaging life’s biggest questions. These questions range from explorations into the laws of nature and the universe to questions on the nature of love, gratitude, forgiveness, and creativity.

Our vision is derived from Sir John Templeton’s commitment to rigorous scientific research and related scholarship. The Foundation’s motto “How little we know, how eager to learn” exemplifies our support for open-minded inquiry and our hope for advancing human progress through breakthrough discoveries.

http://www.templeton.org/

[kappy0405]

I think that we sometimes get confused between spirt/soul and mind. There are higher levels that are actually just mind, which is a more subtle form of physical matter. That may be more of what you're talking about.

In the beginning, the spiritual ocean had drops of itself descend from it, and reach lower realms. Then these drops took the company of mind, to perceive mind regions, and then the mind took on the physical human body. yeah, I guess my perspective of the 'soul' is what occurs at the point in bold, where those 'drops' fuse with the 'company of mind'. Anything above that level is pretty much incomprehendable right now, but I'm assuming it's just an even more subtle from of physicality, technically speaking. Don't get me wrong - that's still something worth admiring from our current perspective.I'd say, but I can't be certain.to be fair, no one can possibly be certain.

The only benefit to my viewpoint is that it doesn't really contradict established science (but still makes sense from a spiritual perspective), and gives hope to the idea that science and spirituality can and should coexist. This leaves the debunkers with no basis for an argument.

[monkyies]

yeah, I guess my perspective of the 'soul' is what occurs at the point in bold, where those 'drops' fuse with the 'company of mind'. Anything above that level is pretty much incomprehendable right now, but I'm assuming it's just an even more subtle from of physicality, technically speaking. Don't get me wrong - that's still something worth admiring from our current perspective.to be fair, no one can possibly be certain.

The only benefit to my viewpoint is that it doesn't really contradict established science (but still makes sense from a spiritual perspective), and gives hope to the idea that science and spirituality can and should coexist. This leaves the debunkers with no basis for an argument.

I'd say that the point right where the drop meets the mind is itself a very high level, beyond our imagination.

I'm not sure science can witness anything going on beyond the physical, it seems impossible. You need spiritual eyes to see those things.

I don't think that we could even see ghosts with human technology, and ghosts are at the physical/astral border line in sub astral realms. Let alone the upper astral and causal regions.

I guess that I have some sort of grudge against science. I think that science is good for the scientific method, but other than that, it sometimes seems to boast too much lol.

I've seen some people try to use science to disprove certain things in spirituality, and it got kind of annoying.

I'm sure that science can scratch the surface of some basic spiritual ideas. But as far as perception goes, I think that we'd only be kidding ourselves.

I mean we already have the mind bodies on us, then physical body on us, now you want to put MORE onto our perception? scientific technology? I think that we need to go the other way around, and go within, rather than more without.

[christ4life]

God's knowledge and His wisdom far surpasses that of man. If you never humble yourself to the fact that there is something greater than yourself, then you'll never know anything greater, until it's finally too late. The videos in the OP are no more pursuasive (to me) than if one mouse claimed to be above all the other mice that are trapped in the same maze as him. Science is nothing more than self-exultation against and above that which is the knowledge of God - the One Whose mind our own minds cannot even contain.

I agree I also think our bodies wouldn't be able to do the things we do without a soul. The physical body is like a shell, and like the snail we can live without it. The shell is not the snail the snail is what makes the shell move.

[jthrale]

I feel like to claim conclusively that there is no soul is beyond ignorant. To think that you "know" or that the human race can even begin to comprehend the nature of the universe or reality is just sort of laughable.

I'm not saying that we all have souls necessarily either.

It is my personal opinion that life is a constant struggle to reconcile one's consciousness with one's own soul. that ultimate goal is to reach some sort of understanding between the two. Your soul lives on but your consciousness doesn't. So in that regard, "I" won't really have an afterlife (beyond what I personally leave behind whether it be memories or material works).

[monkyies]

I feel like to claim conclusively that there is no soul is beyond ignorant. To think that you "know" or that the human race can even begin to comprehend the nature of the universe or reality is just sort of laughable.

I'm not saying that we all have souls necessarily either.

It is my personal opinion that life is a constant struggle to reconcile one's consciousness with one's own soul. that ultimate goal is to reach some sort of understanding between the two. Your soul lives on but your consciousness doesn't. So in that regard, "I" won't really have an afterlife (beyond what I personally leave behind whether it be memories or material works).


Saints and Mystics say that there IS a soul. They have full conviction, that we really are not the body. We are soul spirit that is using the physical body as a garment.

By meditation, we can know the truth, and even know God.

[jthrale]

Saints and Mystics say that there IS a soul. They have full conviction, that we really are not the body. We are soul spirit that is using the physical body as a garment.

By meditation, we can know the truth, and even know God.

Well I was just stating my opinion.

[monkyies]

Well I was just stating my opinion.


Lol I know. I'm not saying that you didn't say there is a soul. Though I may have made it sound like that.

[whatistruth]

The very idea of a soul is an antiquated belief that comes from thousands of years ago when people thought Ra took the sun across the sky in a canoo, that alone should be enough to debunk it.

You can say its ignorant to say we don't have souls all you like, but its ignorant to believe we do.

[jthrale]

The very idea of a soul is an antiquated belief that comes from thousands of years ago when people thought Ra took the sun across the sky in a canoo, that alone should be enough to debunk it.

You can say its ignorant to say we don't have souls all you like, but its ignorant to believe we do.

Wait so you're saying because people have believed in souls since the beginning of civilization (humanity?) that it should no longer be considered valid?

All the "antiquated" ideas that our very civilization is built upon?
There is something about being human. It is called individualism. Why is it so important that people disregard ideas/opinion/beliefs that you don't agree with? If someone truly believes that they have a soul, even if they are wrong is it really hurting you?

The type of soul i expressed belief in is separate from my personality. So it is not like I am hoping for an afterlife either. I am just interested in the truth; and the truth certainly isn't going to come from a couple of videos off the internet.

How silly all those Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc. would feel if we could just go back in time and show them youtube. That'd really put them in their place I bet.

[monkyies]

The very idea of a soul is an antiquated belief that comes from thousands of years ago when people thought Ra took the sun across the sky in a canoo, that alone should be enough to debunk it.

You can say its ignorant to say we don't have souls all you like, but its ignorant to believe we do.

All you have to do is meditate, friend. Try it, then make a conclusion. It starts with faith, in the Saints, who themselves have gone There.

[tannah]

I'd say that the point right where the drop meets the mind is itself a very high level, beyond our imagination.

I'm not sure science can witness anything going on beyond the physical, it seems impossible. You need spiritual eyes to see those things.

I don't think that we could even see ghosts with human technology, and ghosts are at the physical/astral border line in sub astral realms. Let alone the upper astral and causal regions.

I guess that I have some sort of grudge against science. I think that science is good for the scientific method, but other than that, it sometimes seems to boast too much lol.

I've seen some people try to use science to disprove certain things in spirituality, and it got kind of annoying.

I'm sure that science can scratch the surface of some basic spiritual ideas. But as far as perception goes, I think that we'd only be kidding ourselves.

I mean we already have the mind bodies on us, then physical body on us, now you want to put MORE onto our perception? scientific technology? I think that we need to go the other way around, and go within, rather than more without.

I was rediculed non-stop on so called science forums regarding my work. The athiests there had plenty of fun at my expense. Then I looked around for the more "spiritual" types, but they've turned out (mainly) to be just as narrow-minded.:) We must always leave a little room......

It isn't science that can't see, it's generally people.

Indeed, this is why we're here, to eventually see who we are in all the ways open to us.

[kblood]

So let me get this straight, now you're saying the soul may be physical after all?

Is there no end to the mental gymnastics people will play to convince themselves they're going to live forever?

Not that I care about living forever, but I know there is more than this physical world. What makes me wonder is how so many are blind to that fact.

And the OP video, seeing so much flawed theory in one video almost hurts my mind literally. Clearly he has no idea what he is on about, and he thinks of it as proof.

And then there is the mistake of you saying he is disproving the idea of us having a soul. No, he is trying to disprove substance dualism. Also it seems to me he failed. The theory of substance dualism is solid enough. What we perceive as physical is everything that we can measure, but how much are we able to measure? We keep finding smaller building blocks of our known Universe, and keep trying to find smaller bits. Now it seems we are focusing more on finding the nature behind the physics of our Universe, by trying to create black holes, which seems to be a driving force behind our Universe. Now there are theories about the black holes are in fact what is now creating our Universe and its galaxies, or at least another effect of it.

Now we have our spectrums:

Electromagnetic spectrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And we can measure, maybe all of this, at least with the right equipment. Is the soul measurable on this spectrum? Maybe, maybe not. Seems to have neither been proven or disproven. But in some cases it seems to me that it is closer to being proven that disproven, because disproving something as not existing is somewhat impossible.

Now how do we know that we have found the whole spectrum? How would we prove or disprove it?

I know we can have cause physical changes with non-physical means. Proving it seems pointless though, because people will always believe whatever they want to believe. Goes for me and everyone else. We can call our selves open minded or not, we still have some boxes we probably never will get out of, and some that we might get out of, but only to get into another box instead. That is just what it is to be human.

All of this is probably quite irrelevant for our physical body and life here on Earth though, so on the end, what does it matter?

[tannah]

Is Transfiguration and Soul different? The claim is that one can perceive transiguration on this plain.

[manxboz]

And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."


To believe Science can explain everything then that is also close minded, remember science is always changing, always advancing to new heights discovering new things and breaking down old taboos. To be truely open is to look down all avenues and make your own mind up based on the evidence for all angles.

~Namaste~

[dedicate]

What is this "soul" we supposidly have or don't have? I thought I am soul,, so to me, it would be like saying I don't exist.-- which could be true from some understanding.

Then, I find people often confuse the western concept of "soul" with the Hindu reality "Atman". The soul is curruptable, while the Atman is not.-- which distiguishes the two.

This is one reason I don't like to discuss religion with most people, and usually just talk about their life and thoughts and feelings rather than "God,, Heaven, Soul, Hell, Salvation, Sin, Word of God",,, etc.. Usually we don't even have the same understanding of those words, and I would have to say, "What do you mean by...?"

[elirien]

So let me get this straight, now you're saying the soul may be physical after all?

Is there no end to the mental gymnastics people will play to convince themselves they're going to live forever?

Who said it isn't? Perhaps physicists?

One needs mental gymnastics to believe that one is the body. Shut up mentally and who is there to convince?

[theoriginalmurph]

how to prove the soul doesn't exist:

chop your arm off, you will feel pain and deal with some deep issues. but your personality will remain the same.

chop your head off, and you will simply die.

chop your genitals off, now that might change a lot more than your personality.

this proves, there is no such thing as a soul, than different parts working together.

Who can argue with that logic? :)

[mr stoppitall]

IRT#1
I strongly disagree.

You may not remember your incarnation but I do.

:)

[theoriginalmurph]

I agree I also think our bodies wouldn't be able to do the things we do without a soul. The physical body is like a shell, and like the snail we can live without it. The shell is not the snail the snail is what makes the shell move.

That is an excellent and beautiful analogy.

I've been on this forum tonight, and reading these threads about souls, this one and "Proof that we have a soul" (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114096), and I'm convinced there is no mutual understanding between those who believe and those who don't believe in the existence souls, such that, no one is able to define just what, exactly, a soul is.

Personally, when someone uses the word "soul" in a sentence, I always consider the context, and ignore any text book or dictionary definition. No one ever speaks of the soul unless it is has some deeper, spiritual meaning. But, if I have to spell out some expected meaning to the word, some basic method of identifying it, I'd say there ought to be a simple formula to it, something like "SOUL = BODY + SPIRIT", "SOUL = LIVING BEING", and I dare say no one can successfully claim the soul is non-existent then. But, perhaps that is too simplistic? Where does the psyche factor into it? What about consciousness, then? For some reason, those Russian dolls come to mind. Like the snail and shell analogy, and what does the shell look like if it be sliced into halves? Looking inward, from the edge, there appears to be layers, bodies within bodies within bodies. It's that kind of perspective, that point of view, what makes it impossible to understand that there is yet another layer of the body outside of this life, into the next, whereas the spirit, like the snail, can move in the shell seamlessly, as the cavity between the layers is continuous. Certainly, a snail could live without a shell for a time, but does it choose not to permanently? Should our lives continue on into the afterlife, what a terrible Hell it must be to subsist outside of the shell and exposed to the elements?

[tannah]

All parts of the body have their frequency signatures. Barbera Hero has a chart on these, and also other bodily frequencies.

http://www.greatdreams.com/hertz.htm

Now if it's true that our bodies are a shell which the soul causes to move, then there must be a resonant relationship between body and soul, and if that doesn't include a spirit by definition, then spirit too. The link can't be broken, because there is only One Force.

We can measure the frequencies of electrons through Resonation techniques, not because we can actually see them. Likewise , this will be the way to make the existence of soul/spirit self evident.

Through exploring Nature's way of building, and exposing the "mirror" side of such building, a glimpse into the married duality habits of nature can be forthcoming. And it shows that there is a clear path, based on frequency relationships, from ground up into its non-dual aspect. This is also according to Carl Jung claiming that the "day" will come when the ego is unseated and we will marry the inner male/female aspects. Of course he was echoing Far Eastern mysticism. The "story" is written in the natural cycles of the universe. It can't be undone or invented, only discovered.

So now we have the means to experiment, and sooner or later others will refine the experiments further, and we won't be arguing about body/soul/spirit anymore.

[whatistruth]

All parts of the body have their frequency signatures. Barbera Hero has a chart on these, and also other bodily frequencies.

http://www.greatdreams.com/hertz.htm

Now if it's true that our bodies are a shell which the soul causes to move, then there must be a resonant relationship between body and soul, and if that doesn't include a spirit by definition, then spirit too. The link can't be broken, because there is only One Force.

We can measure the frequencies of electrons through Resonation techniques, not because we can actually see them. Likewise , this will be the way to make the existence of soul/spirit self evident.

Through exploring Nature's way of building, and exposing the "mirror" side of such building, a glimpse into the married duality habits of nature can be forthcoming. And it shows that there is a clear path, based on frequency relationships, from ground up into its non-dual aspect. This is also according to Carl Jung claiming that the "day" will come when the ego is unseated and we will marry the inner male/female aspects. Of course he was echoing Far Eastern mysticism. The "story" is written in the natural cycles of the universe. It can't be undone or invented, only discovered.

So now we have the means to experiment, and sooner or later others will refine the experiments further, and we won't be arguing about body/soul/spirit anymore.



Seriously, astrology related links?

Come on.

[tannah]

Seriously, astrology related links?

Come on.

What?

[whatistruth]

http://www.greatdreams.com/hertz.htm

[angelthecat]

how to prove the soul doesn't exist:

chop your arm off, you will feel pain and deal with some deep issues. but your personality will remain the same.

chop your head off, and you will simply die.

chop your genitals off, now that might change a lot more than your personality.

this proves, there is no such thing as a soul, than different parts working together.
purly on this logic alone then the soul does exsist; if you cut off your arm you can still have phantom pains and indeed your fingers, although, non exsitant, can still itch, so where is the itch coming from and who is feeling it, sorry but with me this logic does not fly!

just my opinion you are welcome to disagree or agree if you want to. the stomach has as much grey matter as the brain [allegedly, dont know for sure I just heard it somewhere] if that is the case then this is the part of the brain you dont use [gut feeling?] and why the midpoint shakra is important step to opening the third eye [what you digest], and why the food you eat is processed as it is distroying [natural DMT] the memory of what you are. and you have become a souless creature (human being*) the soul is the ultimate work of art and is the basis for life on earth.

* the term human being was created by the roman catholic church to define the illigitimate offspring of the knights of the crusades, as these children were neither black or white they had a HUE [shade of colour] it was a word to decribe half-cast beings, they created this word so they could invent a roman see [statue] that forbad any inheritance that these children would claim right to by being offspring of a wealthy knight, remember that a knights wealth came from the catholic church as they were mercinary. In a law dictionary [based on latin law] the term human states 'see monster'
anyone with a soul would see children for what they really are 'children'

[tannah]

http://www.greatdreams.com/hertz.htm

The frequency chart? Oh OK, forget that and just go up to an empty oil drum and kick it. Find out what note it produces and its correspondant frequency.

All matter has a frequency signature. A fourier transform can seperate all the individal sine waves that go on to make up the overal frequency of a body. This applies to all mass aggregates.

my argument isn't aimed at atheists or the religious in denial. My argument is aimed at those who already acknowledge we are not the body. Those like the people at the John Templeton Foundation, who very kindly give out grants to researchers with ideas for experiments in this fied.

If you have nothing constructive to say please don't bother entertaining me with your present paradigm.

[hadabusa]

The soul is non physical. The soul came from a very high level of spirituality. We would have to meditate a lot to reach the actual soul.

Even if we were to reach the astral or causal region, we would still not have reached the soul plane. That would still be the mind planes.

The soul is found in higher regions. It is a drop of spirituality, that has left the ocean of spirituality.

If we want to know ourselves as soul, God will guide us to a living Master, and we will even realize the Supreme Being.

One such living Master is named Michael Martin. You can comment or ask questions to him here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/

what about24gramms?

[hadabusa]

fuckme, 3:35 theme in second vid is too hillarious, the bandana/headscarf isa classic.

lolmfao.

[the nine]

how to prove the soul doesn't exist:

chop your arm off, you will feel pain and deal with some deep issues. but your personality will remain the same.

chop your head off, and you will simply die.

chop your genitals off, now that might change a lot more than your personality.

this proves, there is no such thing as a soul, than different parts working together.

prove you simply die..prove reincarnation ceases to exist.
the collective ego is both cunning and super-intelligent and can be wrongly thought of as both god and satan and all that goes with it..IMHO

[twistedconcept]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2upDm-xFqMo

Soul believers - owned.


And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."

BAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=related

Owned.

After watching these videos you may still believe you have a soul, but you at least must accept is a completely irrational idea based on pure fantasy.

The creator of this video has solved the mystery of life. OMG! There is no God. Thanks for proving that life is pointless and has no meaning. There is absolutely no reason to question anything anymore, seeing as everything is pointless. To be honest, what's the point in you trying to convince people of your belief (key word)? If we all die and everything is pointless, it really doesn't matter.

[whatistruth]

The creator of this video has solved the mystery of life. OMG! There is no God. Thanks for proving that life is pointless and has no meaning. There is absolutely no reason to question anything anymore, seeing as everything is pointless. To be honest, what's the point in you trying to convince people of your belief (key word)? If we all die and everything is pointless, it really doesn't matter.

Well in an evolutionary sense the purpose is to pass on your genes to the next generation.
That is undeniable, yet if you seek some higher purpose, perhaps you could try to help people see past racism and bigotry, or contribute something towards world peace.


Just because there's no god or afterlife doesn't mean everything is 'pointless', but you hear this arguement quite a lot from religious apologists when trying to justify their crumbling paradigm.

[cathar]

the proof that reincarnation is real is rock solid...the OP,mr.whathefu*k,is admitting he has no soul..lots of people have no soul...OJ,ted bundy,charles manson,etc...
then there are the people who sold their soul in exchange for fame,money,etc,,,
I hope the OP doesen't have much luck with this souless enterprise.

[whatistruth]

the proof that reincarnation is real is rock solid...the OP,mr.whathefu*k,is admitting he has no soul..lots of people have no soul...OJ,ted bundy,charles manson,etc...
then there are the people who sold their soul in exchange for fame,money,etc,,,
I hope the OP doesen't have much luck with this souless enterprise.

If i were to go into the particulers of what's wrong with what you just said, it'd take hours.


I mean its all based on the assumption we have souls to begin with, so, where did charles manson's soul go?
Presumably he's wandering around without a conciousness.

And selling ones soul? What? to whom?

I just can't deal with the level of stupidity of the 'soul believer' crowd.

[cathar]

If i were to go into the particulers of what's wrong with what you just said, it'd take hours.


I mean its all based on the assumption we have souls to begin with, so, where did charles manson's soul go?
Presumably he's wandering around without a conciousness.

And selling ones soul? What? to whom?

I just can't deal with the level of stupidity of the 'soul believer' crowd.

The reason you can't deal with it is because you DON'T HAVE A SOUL.
The experience of not having a soul precludes you from the the experience of having a soul.
...THE EVIDENCE FOR REINCARNATION IS IRREFUTABLE,,!!!!!
Get over it,,,deal with the sad truth that you are souless instead of wasting your time trying to convence people WITH souls that they lack a soul///
Or maybe you just want to find kindred ,souless spirits to connect with...Are you trying to form a souless band of brothers????
COnfess ,you miserable wretch,you envey people with souls...You secretly wish you had one...:D

[whatistruth]

What does that even mean?

"People with souls", either everyone has souls or no one does.

Although, you clearly misunderstood the ideas in the videos I posted, the subject matter is likely quite a lofty concept for you to deal with.

[cathar]

Dear What be de truth,,,I LAUGH IN YOUR FACE.
i really feel sorry for you ...you have never felt what it's like to have a soul...but i can't help laughing in your face,,,

[clachan]

What does that even mean?

"People with souls", either everyone has souls or no one does.

Although, you clearly misunderstood the ideas in the videos I posted, the subject matter is likely quite a lofty concept for you to deal with.

I think i know what you are driving at;you mean that we are just a freak accident that just emerged by chance from cosmic dust floating around in a pointless,empty void without any particular purpose or reason.
We live short,meaningless lives full of misery,pain and loss that only leads to a dark,cold,eternal abyss without any hope of escape and nothing to give any hope.Everything is pointless,in fact we are better off dead.

I,ll consider the idea and get back to you with my results :)

[cathar]

@what the fuck is truth,,,let me make a guess...You are less than 25 years of age ???
please be honest..OK?

[phemohilia]

Man, I really LOVE Tacos!!!!!

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/t/tacos-9699.jpg

http://www.mccormick.com/~/media/Images/Recipes/Recipe%20Details/Main%20Dish/Fiesta_Tacos.ashx?w=380

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fk1wl7rssIA/SOJ2q7lRuiI/AAAAAAAAIc8/zGqCfZpyZQ8/s400/TACOS.jpg



Don't forget the soft-tacos!!!

http://www.tonyskaty.com/togo/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Juanitos_Tacos_4b1edb27bc2c9.jpg

http://www.iamboredr.com/files/f59fd3586cbc.jpg

[eternal1stparty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2upDm-xFqMo

Soul believers - owned.


And before you go down the road of "science can't explain everything, you're just closed minded.."

BAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=related

Owned.

After watching these videos you may still believe you have a soul, but you at least must accept is a completely irrational idea based on pure fantasy.

http://mirrorcracked.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/fart.jpg

[twistedconcept]

Well in an evolutionary sense the purpose is to pass on your genes to the next generation.
That is undeniable, yet if you seek some higher purpose, perhaps you could try to help people see past racism and bigotry, or contribute something towards world peace.


Just because there's no god or afterlife doesn't mean everything is 'pointless', but you hear this arguement quite a lot from religious apologists when trying to justify their crumbling paradigm.

There will never be world peace. Man has always, in the thousands (or millions) of years that he's been here, fucked things up.

If you're happy with your belief, I'm happy for you. I personally know that there's more to life than the purely physical, due to my own experiences. I don't need to prove them to anybody. They're real to me.

Militant atheists are no better than religious fundamentalists.

[kblood]

Well in an evolutionary sense the purpose is to pass on your genes to the next generation.
That is undeniable, yet if you seek some higher purpose, perhaps you could try to help people see past racism and bigotry, or contribute something towards world peace.


Just because there's no god or afterlife doesn't mean everything is 'pointless', but you hear this arguement quite a lot from religious apologists when trying to justify their crumbling paradigm.

I agree that it would make little difference. It would not make this without purpose.

I do not believe in a conciousness having created everything, at least not one with thoughts, ego, feelings and desires of its own like the Bible and other religions suggests. If anything it would most likely be a collective conciousness. So my the way I see it, the beauty of creation is that it is created in such a way that it is not just about chance. Not about if there will be beings like us emerging from this creation, but when it happens, and it did, and it probably have done so and will happen over and over again. And we will experience and learn. Become beings that can guide other beings. From my experience that will not just happen on a physical plane of existance.

One day, although maybe not in this life time, you will get to enjoy the things that are beyond the physical. Although these days I find that enough to keep me going these days, I will probably have to become aware of more than my physical senses again at some point, but I like living a simple life. Like you obviously also do with these beliefs. Its funny how you claim it is peoples fear of death that makes them believe in a soul, while it seems to me it is the fear of the unknown that makes people believe in nothing beyond what we see.

I have tried opening peoples minds to how wast reality really is, but it seems some people are just meant to be blinded by the bright light this physical world is. Which is why I am now leaving it at that. Although discussing it always seems interesting anyway.

Also the notion that there are beings without souls, also seems ridiculous to me, but I have heard of it before. Its in some Matrix 5 book or books, for one. But the way I see it, souls are a kind of lifeforce that is not just something humans have, but plants and insects as well, although maybe that is more of a shared kind.