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monkyies

03-05-2010, 10:37 AM

no

you can copy and paste some of his messianic sayings, or is it forbidden?

Here is the rest of his conversation with noby:

Message 6064 of 6064
From: kabir_75901
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Michael Martin Western Sat Guru] NOBY

NOBY:
> Mhh, MM,
...snip....
> let's play again, dear MM, ok?
MM:
This is a warning. I'm tired of your attitude. I'm tired of your advertising. I've been patient, but now I'm running out of patience. Either you get it together, or I will be forced to delete you from the Group. We are not here to have "fun," with arguments. We are sincere seekers. Do you understand that simple truth? If you want to think you're greater, that's fine. They know about your Group, now, but I don't think more repetitions of it will help.
....
MM:
I'm not the only member of the Group, as you've noticed, also. I'm here to protect this Group from unscrupulous advertisers, and people who want to undermine their faith, or otherwise interfere in their search for truth. Do you understand that?
...
MM:
Read what I just wrote above.
....
MM:
Yes, we are conditioned by perhaps millions of past lives. We have been deceived into thinking that this illusion is real.
Noby:
> What are ''souls''? ...
MM:
A soul is a drop of spirituality. It was created by God. It has taken the company of mind and body. Now, it does not know its own identity. Instead, it thinks it is mind and body. By following a Sat Guru, True Master, we can cast off the covering of mind and body. Then we can know the soul, which shines with the light of 12 suns, at the level of the third stage of consciousness. At the fifth stage the soul merges into the Creator. All souls become one there.
Noby:
...
> you incorporate those magnifique manifestation like ''Shabd, Kalma, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Nam, Holy Spirit, '' and therefore you bless yourself with the title
MM:
It is the creative power, and the real form of the Master, and of God (as a manifested power). I didn't create this Group, with that title. Someone else did. I just left the title as it was.
Noby:
> MichaelMartinWesternSatGuru? Or did you got this title from your teacher? As heritage? My God!° :-)
MM:
I'm doing this duty, as a teacher, under order of Anami Purush Radha Soami, i.e. nameless Lord of the soul. All Guruavatars do what the Lord wants done.
Noby:
> Some spirit to understand your letter would be realy more than enough for a simple man like me, but ''Holy Spirit'', what is that?
MM:
It is difficult to describe it. It is the Creative Power, and manifests as sound and light within us. If we follow it, it takes us to our True Home, known as Sach Khand.
Noby:
> Never had any other spirit but mine, and when this ''holy feelings'' started as disease always friends of mine helped to hammer my stubborn head back, to come back on earth!
MM:
Are you saying that everybody is your Guru? That might be true. Faqir Chand said, but with this qualifier, the Sat Guru can take us to our True Home. We have to use a little discernment, otherwise we will never realize God.
Noby:
Don't you have friends like this? Only followers?
MM:
I consider a friend to be one, who helps one, not who is an agent of Satan.

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 10:38 AM

MM:
Don't worry about that. Saints are strong. Our burden is perceived by our own mind, however, according to our attachments. It is natural, if we've had long associations with certain souls. The way out of this illusion, is to attach mind and soul to the Shabd, Kalma, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Nam, Holy Spirit, etc... It will take us places far beyond all this negativity associated with mind and the illusions of this world. If our loved ones are attached to us, then they will meet a Master and follow us, too. This is what Christ meant, when he said, "There will be One Shepherd and One Fold."

You will be all right.

Love, Michael

I really don't need to be led or "shepherded"

oooh and so it's your mind that creates negativity... haven't heard that one before :rolleyes:

monkyies

03-05-2010, 10:41 AM

I really don't need to be led or "shepherded"

oooh and so it's your mind that creates negativity... haven't heard that one before :rolleyes:

Here's the continuation of the conversation with Noby:

MM:
If they're all like you, I would think they might not be ready for the truth. We have to be serious, not a bunch of jokers.
Noby:
> Surely, strong, strange sage saints will follow the pious prayers of and join people and places cursed with plagues, you blame so true, so true, sobsobsob - illusionionst like you and me - sorry me, not you, got it right?
MM:
My duty is to remove the illusions, or to teach how to remove them.
Noby:
.....
> Are you one of these shepherds? And nearly four-houndred people enjoy as sleeping sheep your magnifique manifestation?
MM:
Sleeping sheep? Those who aren't following a Master, are more likely to be sleeping and deceived.

> your
> n0by
> with love
....snip....
MM:
Like I said, get it together. You've done enough advertising now.
Michael

runciter

03-05-2010, 10:42 AM

He has once said this to someone. This person [noby] was trying to advertise their website on Michaels website:

MM:

Okay, now the readers can decide whether they want to follow the Supreme Father Figure, the Param Sant Sat Guru, or they can join your Group and just make fun of the idea. This is nothing new, Noby. St. Paul said nearly 2000 years ago, "Some will take the teachings to be foolishness."

If people want to waste their lives in parody religions, that's their prerogative. I'm simply here for the sincere seekers. I've been doing the Shabd Meditation for 39 years.

This Group is for sincere seekers. I'm willing to discuss things, and take some criticisms, but it's not for people who think all Gurus are a joke, or that meditation is a joke. Do you understand?

Michael

no substance, he's only hinting at someting

here he is, portrayed with one of his disciples (you?)

http://www.btinternet.com/~kevin.l.j.knight/Pictures/Live_Bait.gif

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 10:43 AM

I can't describe to you what good a Savior of man is capable of. What these Sons of God do and are is indescribable.

But I'd assure you, if you asked Michael these questions on his site, he'd have very interesting answers. If you ask him there, maybe we can post them back here.

I can even ask him for you, if you guys have any questions.

ask him about psychic vampires, and whether he is one. :D

monkyies

03-05-2010, 10:47 AM

ask him about psychic vampires, and whether he is one. :D

That question sounds out of the scope of Michaels teachings. He teaches us how to leave this world and its "psychic vampires" altogether. Very few will understand what he really is. Some worthy souls will believe him and follow him.

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 10:49 AM

Here is the rest of his conversation with noby:

Message 6064 of 6064
From: kabir_75901
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Michael Martin Western Sat Guru] NOBY

NOBY:
> Mhh, MM,
...snip....
> let's play again, dear MM, ok?
MM:
This is a warning. I'm tired of your attitude. I'm tired of your advertising. I've been patient, but now I'm running out of patience. Either you get it together, or I will be forced to delete you from the Group. We are not here to have "fun," with arguments. We are sincere seekers. Do you understand that simple truth? If you want to think you're greater, that's fine. They know about your Group, now, but I don't think more repetitions of it will help.
....
MM:
I'm not the only member of the Group, as you've noticed, also. I'm here to protect this Group from unscrupulous advertisers, and people who want to undermine their faith, or otherwise interfere in their search for truth. Do you understand that?
...
MM:
Read what I just wrote above.
....
MM:
Yes, we are conditioned by perhaps millions of past lives. We have been deceived into thinking that this illusion is real.
Noby:
> What are ''souls''? ...
MM:
A soul is a drop of spirituality. It was created by God. It has taken the company of mind and body. Now, it does not know its own identity. Instead, it thinks it is mind and body. By following a Sat Guru, True Master, we can cast off the covering of mind and body. Then we can know the soul, which shines with the light of 12 suns, at the level of the third stage of consciousness. At the fifth stage the soul merges into the Creator. All souls become one there.
Noby:
...
> you incorporate those magnifique manifestation like ''Shabd, Kalma, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Nam, Holy Spirit, '' and therefore you bless yourself with the title
MM:
It is the creative power, and the real form of the Master, and of God (as a manifested power). I didn't create this Group, with that title. Someone else did. I just left the title as it was.
Noby:
> MichaelMartinWesternSatGuru? Or did you got this title from your teacher? As heritage? My God!° :-)
MM:
I'm doing this duty, as a teacher, under order of Anami Purush Radha Soami, i.e. nameless Lord of the soul. All Guruavatars do what the Lord wants done.
Noby:
> Some spirit to understand your letter would be realy more than enough for a simple man like me, but ''Holy Spirit'', what is that?
MM:
It is difficult to describe it. It is the Creative Power, and manifests as sound and light within us. If we follow it, it takes us to our True Home, known as Sach Khand.
Noby:
> Never had any other spirit but mine, and when this ''holy feelings'' started as disease always friends of mine helped to hammer my stubborn head back, to come back on earth!
MM:
Are you saying that everybody is your Guru? That might be true. Faqir Chand said, but with this qualifier, the Sat Guru can take us to our True Home. We have to use a little discernment, otherwise we will never realize God.
Noby:
Don't you have friends like this? Only followers?
MM:
I consider a friend to be one, who helps one, not who is an agent of Satan.

only 12?? whatever happened to infinite consciousness?? Sounds like sun cult worship to me.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 10:53 AM

no substance, he's only hinting at someting

here he is, portrayed with one of his disciples (you?)

http://www.btinternet.com/~kevin.l.j.knight/Pictures/Live_Bait.gif

You can ask him questions for yourself. He will tell you exactly what his teachings are.

Basically, we are on the physical realm at this point, and we need to reach the Father. The Father is found at the 8th stage.

We meet the Sat Guru at the 1st stage (astral) and he takes us from there to the causal (2nd stage) then Par Brahm (super causal or 3rd stage) then the "rotating cave" or Bhanwar Gupha, and then Sach Khand, the 5th stage.

At the 5th stage, the light, beauty, love, vibration is all far beyond our understanding.

The 8th stage is the source, the Infinite, the Supreme Being. That stage is completely beyond any idea human language could ever being to form.

This is a path of light and sound, accompanied by a living Master.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 11:02 AM

If you'd like to know more of what he teaches, you can search "sant mat" in google.

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 11:19 AM

You can ask him questions for yourself. He will tell you exactly what his teachings are.

Basically, we are on the physical realm at this point, and we need to reach the Father. The Father is found at the 8th stage.

We meet the Sat Guru at the 1st stage (astral) and he takes us from there to the causal (2nd stage) then Par Brahm (super causal or 3rd stage) then the "rotating cave" or Bhanwar Gupha, and then Sach Khand, the 5th stage.

At the 5th stage, the light, beauty, love, vibration is all far beyond our understanding.

The 8th stage is the source, the Infinite, the Supreme Being. That stage is completely beyond any idea human language could ever being to form.

This is a path of light and sound, accompanied by a living Master.

I am all the stages and none :p

nectars

03-05-2010, 11:32 AM

He seems like most Eastern teachersnto be deliberately ambiguous in reference to explaining in clear simple terms some of what he's saying.

You need no guru as all truth that has ever been taught is already available. Your being convinced of such should in itself be a warning to both yourself any anyone else who reads your posts, aand I truly hope it was not him who convinced you of such.

Be careful with this; those in the East have been at this game for a long time and know how to distort truth very subtly. I'm not saying he is, but there are a few things he says -and doesnt say- on that site which would make me question is motives. Material gain is not the only form of advantage and gain -not that theres anything wrong with having a Rolls Royce, but there can be with a fleet of 50 of them lol.

Another thread here by you with pertinent info: A Great Saint(clicky) (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50229)

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 11:34 AM

He seems like most Eastern teachersnto be deliberately ambiguous in reference to explaining in clear simple terms some of what he's saying.

You need no guru as all truth that has ever been taught is already available. Your being convinced of such should in itself be a warning to both yourself any anyone else who reads your posts, aand I truly hope it was not him who convinced you of such.

Be careful with this; those in the East have been at this game for a long time and know how to distort truth very subtly. I'm not saying he is, but there are a few things he says -and doesnt say- on that site which would make me question is motives. Material gain is not the only form of advantage and gain -not that theres anything wrong with having a Rolls Royce, but there can be with a fleet of 50 of them lol.

Don't get Moral man started :p

nectars

03-05-2010, 11:44 AM

Don't get Moral man started :p

Haha, we have fun Moralman and myself lol :D

runciter

03-05-2010, 11:45 AM

monkyies

03-05-2010, 06:02 PM

I am all the stages and none :p

All the stages, and none, would be the 8th stage. That's the non dual level.

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 06:05 PM

All the stages, and none, would be the 8th stage. That's the non dual level.

Exactly! That's where I'm at bro, he should be coming to ME for advice ;)

monkyies

03-05-2010, 06:07 PM

He seems like most Eastern teachersnto be deliberately ambiguous in reference to explaining in clear simple terms some of what he's saying.

You need no guru as all truth that has ever been taught is already available.

-We need a Guru to cross the second stage. Nobody reaches the Father except through his Sons.

Your being convinced of such should in itself be a warning to both yourself any anyone else who reads your posts, aand I truly hope it was not him who convinced you of such.

-The teachings are timeless, it's called Sant Mat. It is the path of the Shabd, Nam, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Kalma, Isme-i-Azam, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Kalma, Logos, Music of Spheres, Word, Bani, Gurbani, Living Water, Audible Life Stream, Tao,

Or whatever you want to call it. It manifests as light and sound and as the form of your Guru that initiated you.

Be careful with this; those in the East have been at this game for a long time and know how to distort truth very subtly. I'm not saying he is, but there are a few things he says -and doesnt say- on that site which would make me question is motives. Material gain is not the only form of advantage and gain -not that theres anything wrong with having a Rolls Royce, but there can be with a fleet of 50 of them lol.

-It is of course good to be skeptical. We would not want to follow a false Guru. He could drag us to hell. But we cannot forget that True ones exist too.

Another thread here by you with pertinent info: [URL="http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50229"]A Great Saint

-I try to get others to know about Michael Martin. We'll see if they are worthy and deserve him or not.

The teachings are simple, yet complex at the same time. Some will think that they are foolishness, as St. Paul said.

Others have a pure mind to boot, and progress very fast. The last can be the first.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 06:12 PM

"anything wrong with having a Rolls Royce, but there can be with a fleet of 50 of them lol."

Not all Gurus are fake. This isn't Osho. This is Michael Martin. So let's try to have an open mind. At least speak to him a bit. Ask him some questions.

At certain times, I think we need to be a little humble. Realize that we are shipwrecked.

Let's admit that we are on the physical level, as a drop, and we need to reach the God level, as an ocean.

But it's up to us whether we want to remain as a drop or become the ocean. If we want happiness, we won't find it under the 8th stage. All below the 8th stage is illusion, a projection.

But at this level, this world is very real. From above it is illusion. Even the astral realm and it's heavens and hells are more real than the people and things of this world. But go to the Causal plane, and you'll see an even higher reality.

It would be foolish to cross these spiritual planes without a Guide. I guarantee you that much.

Every Saint and Mystic has had a Master. All of them. All religious prophets and saviors have had their spiritual teacher.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 06:16 PM

Exactly! That's where I'm at bro, he should be coming to ME for advice ;)

The 8th stage is beyond the 5 senses. It's beyond mind and matter.

Satan is the ruler of the three worlds, Physical Astral and Causal. He is at the top of the Causal plane as Universal Mind or he can come in any form. He's more real than anything on this plane. Even hell is on a higher level of consciousness (lower astral). Heavens exist in higher astral and causal planes, like a paradise. But souls are stuck there.

Great Souls have been stuck in the Astral and Causal planes for 1000s of years. They thought the reached the highest. But they did not have a True Master that had gone beyond, to guide them beyond.

We cannot go beyond Satan without a True Guide. He will tempt us, in this world, and the next.

He gives no mercy, just justice. If we get initiated by a Sat Guru, the Sat Guru takes over our karmas, and distributes mercy. He gives far more than we deserve.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 06:17 PM

kabbalistic mind control comes to mind

There is nothing Kabbalistic or anything to do with mind control.

This is YOU controlling your own mind. This is you taking control of your soul, once again. This is you finding the True Home of your soul. This is you knowing thy self.

runciter

03-05-2010, 06:32 PM

There is nothing Kabbalistic or anything to do with mind control.

This is YOU controlling your own mind. This is you taking control of your soul, once again. This is you finding the True Home of your soul. This is you knowing thy self.

numbers and sacred names entrap the imagination

rapunzel

03-05-2010, 06:42 PM

He seems like most Eastern teachersnto be deliberately ambiguous in reference to explaining in clear simple terms some of what he's saying.

You need no guru as all truth that has ever been taught is already available.

-We need a Guru to cross the second stage. Nobody reaches the Father except through his Sons.

Your being convinced of such should in itself be a warning to both yourself any anyone else who reads your posts, aand I truly hope it was not him who convinced you of such.

-The teachings are timeless, it's called Sant Mat. It is the path of the Shabd, Nam, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Kalma, Isme-i-Azam, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Kalma, Logos, Music of Spheres, Word, Bani, Gurbani, Living Water, Audible Life Stream, Tao,

Or whatever you want to call it. It manifests as light and sound and as the form of your Guru that initiated you.

Be careful with this; those in the East have been at this game for a long time and know how to distort truth very subtly. I'm not saying he is, but there are a few things he says -and doesnt say- on that site which would make me question is motives. Material gain is not the only form of advantage and gain -not that theres anything wrong with having a Rolls Royce, but there can be with a fleet of 50 of them lol.

-It is of course good to be skeptical. We would not want to follow a false Guru. He could drag us to hell. But we cannot forget that True ones exist too.

Another thread here by you with pertinent info: [URL="http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50229"]A Great Saint

-I try to get others to know about Michael Martin. We'll see if they are worthy and deserve him or not.

The teachings are simple, yet complex at the same time. Some will think that they are foolishness, as St. Paul said.

Others have a pure mind to boot, and progress very fast. The last can be the first.

If you're still at the stage of using gender specific words - Father, son, then you haven't progressed very far.

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 07:10 PM

monkyies

03-05-2010, 07:14 PM

numbers and sacred names entrap the imagination

We are to go beyond imagination. Imagination stops at the second stage. We are to reach the 8th stage.

Michael Martin is that man you need to contact. You need a living Master, and he is THE ONE. Here is his site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/message/1187

newworldengineer

03-05-2010, 07:17 PM

We are to go beyond imagination. Imagination stops at the second stage. We are to reach the 8th stage.

Michael Martin is that man you need to contact. You need a living Master, and he is THE ONE. Here is his site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/message/1187

seems like you're just filling your head up with psuedo-spiritual intellectual crap, when really we should want our minds clear to truely connect with our source... which will keep us safe and guide us where we need to go. enough of the fantasizin!

coco

03-05-2010, 07:20 PM

phildee3

03-05-2010, 07:29 PM

Fuck Guru's... they're all a bunch of self-serving pricks.

I though Meher Baba was pretty cool.
He said absolutely nothing last 15 years of his life. Just smiled alot.

He said, "All things that are real are given and received in silence" (before he went into silence, of course ;)).

zen_fox

03-05-2010, 08:11 PM

i dont believe in reincarnation

nectars

03-05-2010, 08:28 PM

If you're still at the stage of using gender specific words - Father, son, then you haven't progressed very far.

Interesting judgement call.

Not that I agree with the topic, the poster or the "guru" he supports -or for that matter his or said gurus understanding of the Father/Son concept, but it can be more accurate if understood in its proper context than most other teachings out there, including the "Very Advanced" stuff. Also the terminology of "Father/Son"(not Sons) has nothing to do with gender, so what does this say for your own progress?

Perhaps if you elaborated on your own understanding of it then it may give a better indication of your own progress than will that of belittling the understanding of others.

Think on this: "Truth is simple. If you want complexity you'll never understand simplicity." - Lester Levenson

Isn't Shakespeare's identity suspect? He's either one guy using that pseudonym or a collective of writers.

Guru: What does Shakespeare have to with the ultimate spiritual answers? Why has he been put in the same category with Christ and Buddha?

Guru? You refering to this Michael guy or the poster? Anyway..

The true identity of the writer or Shakespeare is irrelevant. Like Blake, his writtings contain the way, path or pointers to that which most spiritual aspirants miss. In saying that, I'm not sure I'd put the writer of Shakespeares works anywhere close to the supposed Great Avatars.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 09:23 PM

I'm beginning to think Monkyies is this Michael the messiah dude(tm)... geez, these guru guys must be getting desperate for followers if they're coming on the Icke forum, totally the wrong kind of forum for this kinda crap. amusing tho none the less :p

People have said this about me before. My faith in Michael probably surprizes them. But I do have faith in him, and he has a great influence on me.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 09:31 PM

seems like you're just filling your head up with psuedo-spiritual intellectual crap, when really we should want our minds clear to truely connect with our source... which will keep us safe and guide us where we need to go. enough of the fantasizin!

The spiritual knowledge and teachings are there to satisfy the intellect, and then you can clear the mind.

Once the stumbling block of intellect is conquered, you have no more questions and just have faith.

But there is a method to reach God. He created this Path, and those who are to go to Him will tread it.

Alright, I gave it a shot.

Michael Martin himself has been posting online for 13 years and hasn't has too much success. I shouldn't expect to find any either. It just becomes a hog calling contest.

I will again advise people to have an open mind, and have some humility when dealing with this Mahaguru Avatar.

At some time Michael will be very well known. He will actually be globally known. It is just a matter of time. Certain things are pending. Good luck.

cosmo1

03-05-2010, 09:31 PM

Here's the continuation of the conversation with Noby:

MM:
If they're all like you, I would think they might not be ready for the truth. We have to be serious, not a bunch of jokers.Noby:
> Surely, strong, strange sage saints will follow the pious prayers of and join people and places cursed with plagues, you blame so true, so true, sobsobsob - illusionionst like you and me - sorry me, not you, got it right?

If that's the case i think i'll pass; too much seriousness is injurious to the soul :D

monkyies

03-05-2010, 09:51 PM

I'm just trying to help you guys.

From my perspective, people on this site are seekers of Truth. If they want the highest Truth, they can find it in Sant Mat.

If you have a problem with Michael Martin, there are two other Gurus who have also reached the pinnacle of Spirituality.

They are Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji and Pir Zia Inayat Khan. I've mentioned all three of these Gurus before.

Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji has a site: rssb.org

and Pir Zia at sufiorder.org

Thanks

monkyies

03-05-2010, 09:53 PM

If that's the case i think i'll pass; too much seriousness is injurious to the soul :D

This path is not for everyone. That's for sure. Many are called but few are chosen.

evenus_cinatus

03-05-2010, 10:09 PM

This path is not for everyone. That's for sure. Many are called but few are chosen.

There is only one path and it is accessible to all. No special learning is required. No outside guru is required. No special equipment is required.
Acquiring disciples is not required. Actively spreading the Truth is not
required. Most importantly, NO MONEY IS REQUIRED.

All that is required is patience and a willingness to face your deepest fears
while alone in a quiet place. No others are neccessary. You and your thoughts are known only to you (or God if you are a believer.) Afterward if you are doubtful of the existence of God you will find your proof.

Seek the inward path, the Golden Path.

Look at the "Meditate and Escape your Prison" thread in the Meditation section of this forum.

monkyies

03-05-2010, 10:10 PM

Isn't Shakespeare's identity suspect? He's either one guy using that pseudonym or a collective of writers.

Guru: What does Shakespeare have to with the ultimate spiritual answers? Why has he been put in the same category with Christ and Buddha?

The anti-strats are a group of people who think that Shakespeare was not the author of the canon. There are different groups of people with different types of fantasies.

I'm not the Guru. I've again said to go to Michael's yahoo groups to ask him questions there, please. I will in no way do your questions justice compared to him.

I'll try to answer your question anyways. The reason is that Shakespeare taught spirituality cryptically in his writtings. He was actually a Sat Guru. His works are second to the Bible. In those times of Shakespeare, he had no choice but to write cryptically. Many Gurus have done this in the past. Some were bold, but got killed or tortured.

Michael Martin's most recent incarnation was as Shakespeare. Before that he was Kabir Sahib, and so on.

If you ask Michael these questions, he will give you very satisfying and complete answers.

I can't even begin to transfer my faith in Michael and what he teaches to you people. It has to come from your own search.

I can only tell you what his site is, then the rest is up to you.

I'll give you a post of Michaels made in 2002 about Shakespeare's sonnet #17. He's done most of the sonnets, and I think there's around 150 of them:

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the Perfect Mystic Adept, Shakespeare, has written.

Shakespeare:
Who will believe my verse in time to come,
If it were fill'd with your most high deserts?

MM:
Shakespeare is telling asking his disciples, who will believe the
highest spiritual teachings included in his verse, in time to come.
He indicates that he is including the Sant Mat teachings in his
poems. He knows, probably, that most will not understand them, but
some might, at some future time. Christ mentioned that some seeds
fall on fertile ground, and some will fall on barren ground. It's
the same truth.

Shakespeare:
Though yet, heaven knows, it is but as a tomb
Which hides your life and shows not half your parts.

MM:
Very beautiful. Walt Whitman wrote that he was only giving us HINTS
of the truth in "Leaves of Grass." Similarly, Shakespeare is saying
that he is only giving HALF of the teachings. What is half of the
teachings? It is the Sant Mat theory; to find a Master, follow him,
do the spiritual meditation, raise the consciousness to the THIRD EYE
CENTER, and beyond. That is about half of the teachings. The other
half involves internal mystic transport in the company of the True
Master.

He writes that compared to the real mystic transport, the written
teachings are like a tomb. That gives us a good impression of the
superiority of the actual meditation, the actual practice.

Shakespeare:
If I could write the beauty of your eyes
And in fresh numbers number all your graces,

MM:
The Master doesn't see his disciples as only flesh, blood, and
bones. He sees the soul within. This is really what he is talking
about. The Astral Body has eyes and graces, as does the Causal Body,
but the most beautiful of all, is the soul. That spiritual drop
longs to merge into its spiritual ocean.

Shakespeare:
The age to come would say 'This poet lies:
Such heavenly touches ne'er touch'd earthly faces.'

MM:
That is right, because Shakespeare is talking about "celestial
bodies, and souls," as Saint Paul mentioned. The Astral Body is more
beautiful, more graceful, etc., than the Physical Body. The Causal
Body is similarly, more beautiful, more graceful, than the Astral
Body. We have to go beyond all bodies, to realize the Supreme
Being. The pure soul goes there, denuded of all bodies, to merge
into the Supreme Being.

Shakespeare:
So should my papers yellow'd with their age
Be scorn'd like old men of less truth than tongue,

MM:
As I mentioned above, Saints come to collect the worthy souls. Some
will not be worthy. "Many are called, but few are chosen, is
mentioned in the Bible." The teachings of the Saints, like
Shakespeare, have been criticized since time immemorial. The worldly
people don't like being confronted with the truth. That is why so
many Saints have been tortured and killed. Shakespeare knows that
some will scorn his teachings. It's nothing new. It's as old as the
creation, itself.

Shakespeare:
And your true rights be term'd a poet's rage
And stretched metre of an antique song:

MM:
What are our "true rights?" Looking at this from the point of view
of the Saints, such as Shakespeare, we are human beings, and being
human we have the right to realize God. The Bible says, "the body is
the temple of God." So, we have a right to believe in the Sant Mat
teachings. We have a right to follow a True Master, as Shakespeare
was.

So, Shakespeare is discussing the truth, and our right to follow the
True Path, but some will take the truth to be nothing more than a
poet's rage. That is their great misfortune. If we reject the
Saints, then we might lose the human form in the next birth. Christ
said, "He who has ears to ear, let him hear. There will be wailing,
and gnashing of teeth."

I read a message the other day, that someone wrote that Sant Mat was
outdated. This is what Shakespeare is saying, also, with his
reference to an "antique song." Sure, the teachings are old, but
there is no other way to realize God. It is God's own method. It
has been on earth for billions of years, and it will continue for
billions more. There is no other way to go beyond mind and matter,
to realize the Supreme Being. We must follow a Master, who has that
access himself, and has become absorbed in Shabd, Nam, or Holy
Spirit. This teaching will never change. We have to die while
living. We still die the same as those, who died billions of years
ago. The soul leaves the body and goes to the next plane of
consciousness. So, the inner ascent never changes.

"Stretched meter," means that some will take his lofty teachings to
be nothing but poetry, and will ignore the all-important teachings
within it.

Shakespeare:
But were some child of yours alive that time,
You should live twice; in it and in my rhyme.

MM:
This is a very beautiful teaching. It is full of the highest
mysticism. Nobody but a True Mystic would understand it, perhaps. I
will try to do it justice here.

Shakespeare is using the word "child," as synonymous with disciple.
Shakespeare tells his disciple, "You should live twice; in it and in
my rhyme." This means that the disciple should live in his
disciple. How do we live in our disciple? By becoming a Master
ourselves. By becoming ONE with the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit.
Shakespeare has often called the Master, "Beauty," so we need to
become one with that spiritual beauty. The Radiant Form of the
Master is beauteous beyond compare. So, Shakespeare is telling us to
continue the line of Masters. If we become Masters, we can make
others Masters.

Shakespeare says we can live, in Shabd Form, in our disciples, and
our teachings will be "living," in his rhymes. "Live in his rhyme,"
could mean to live in his teachings, also. Living in Shakespeare's
teachings is the same as living in God's teachings, as Masters are
ONE with the Supreme Being.

Michael

monkyies

03-05-2010, 10:12 PM

There is only one path and it is accessible to all. No special learning is required. No outside guru is required. No special equipment is required.
Acquiring disciples is not required. Actively spreading the Truth is not
required. Most importantly, NO MONEY IS REQUIRED.

All that is required is patience and a willingness to face your deepest fears
while alone in a quiet place. No others are neccessary. You and your thoughts are known only to you (or God if you are a believer.) Afterward if you are doubtful of the existence of God you will find your proof.

Seek the inward path, the Golden Path.

Look at the "Meditate and Escape your Prison" thread in the Meditation section of this forum.

You need a teacher for everything. Even what you are saying right now, is a teaching.

But I'm done at this point, trying to argue here. If people don't think they need a teacher, I can't help that.

evenus_cinatus

04-05-2010, 01:43 AM

You need a teacher for everything. Even what you are saying right now, is a teaching.

But I'm done at this point, trying to argue here. If people don't think they need a teacher, I can't help that.

Of the many lives we all have lived before at one point each and every
one of us was the greatest teacher on the planet at the time.
We are the greatest teacher to ourselves. Just think of all the things
we had to learn on our own from the moment of our birth. Learning
how to survive is the greatest lesson we learn by ourselves.

As one goes deeper within one's self we start to remember things that
aid us in our journey. Some teachings cannot be taught even if we
wished we could. The deeper teachings are so sublime that when you
grasp it you realize you have self-learned the teaching a very long time
ago. Words are so limited that they can't begin to describe the lesson
to others. You are just remembering what you once knew.

monkyies

04-05-2010, 07:05 AM

Of the many lives we all have lived before at one point each and every
one of us was the greatest teacher on the planet at the time.

-We have been out of touch with the Sound for ages. So maybe when we JUST got here, we were capable of teaching others about the Sound, but now we've been wandering here, without the knowledge of how to again connect to the Shabd.

We are the greatest teacher to ourselves. Just think of all the things
we had to learn on our own from the moment of our birth. Learning
how to survive is the greatest lesson we learn by ourselves.

-The world is our Guru, also. But the Sat Guru takes us HOME. We learn from others as we interact with them. They help us to a certain extent, with everything we've ever done. At a certain point we can do it ourselves, but the guidance is what made it possible.

As one goes deeper within one's self we start to remember things that
aid us in our journey.

-We need a Guru to tell us that there is even such thing as "within." You may not know it, but many people don't even know what spiritual meditation is. They might thing meditation is just a relaxation technique, and possibly not even try it at all.

You must realize that people do go at it alone. You can agree on me with this: You can go far if you go at it alone. Yes you can. But there is much more inner depth than you may think.

I'll give you a excerpt of what Michael Martin has once said:

MM:
Universal Mind is Satan. It contains all our
attachments and desires. To go beyond it, means we
must reject all attachments and worldly desires. Sant
Mat says that our karmas are like an upside-down tree,
and the roots of all our karmas, of all our problems,
are in Universal Mind. Master Touchstone calls it
"bad fruit," because if we start sightseeing, or
indulging in past associations, then it will prevent
further progress. Mystics tell us that there are
Rishis, Munis, and Yogishwars, who reached the Causal
Plane, but have been stuck there, due to lack of a
competent Master to take them beyond. Some have been
stuck there for thousands of years.

Some teachings cannot be taught even if we
wished we could.

-Brother, I don't think you have a good idea of the kind of teachers that I am talking about. They teach a meditation technqiue. Is that so invasive? They tell us to concentrate at the eye center, and give us a mantra. Is that so bad? Their charisma and spiritual presence and good company allows us to have what it takes. They are the example we can see of one who has "made it." They are competant teachers, whether we can understand, or not. They encourage us, they care for us, they want us to become better.

They will correct us, and stop us in our tracks of going lower. They are here to remind us that there IS a "higher" and that we should go there.

Just the company of one who has reached a higher level of Truth is better than bad company, yes.

The deeper teachings are so sublime that when you
grasp it you realize you have self-learned the teaching a very long time
ago.

-Nobody is trying to tell you to grasp deeper teachings. The Saints and Mystics give us all the teachings we need to realize those deeper ones for ourselves. They are the ones who get us ready for the path of direct experience for ourselves. We are the ones who meditate, and they don't do it for us.

We were connected to the Sound Current, God, many ages ago. We have completely forgotten our Divine roots. The Sat Gurus re-awaken us. They connect us to the Holy Spirit, or the logos, whatever you want to call it.

Initiation by a Sat Guru is priceless. Here is somethings Michael has said about it:

MM:
Shakespeare says that we should follow him, while he is alive. When Saints
leave the body, they go to the Father's House, which is Sach Khand. We should
take advantage of the Master while he is alive. This opportunity might not
present itself for millions of years, maybe never. The Adi Granth mentioned
that if we don't follow the Master, we could wander aimlessly, forever.

MM:
The world is dancing to the tune of Satan, because of the huge karmic
debts. Those who want to go beyond that debt, and return to the True
Home, need to find one with the proper authority. Christ described
it thus, "Whomsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in
heaven." That was his order to St. Peter. He also mentioned that he
was giving him the keys to heaven, another indication of his
authority.

Spiritual salvation requires that somehow our karmic debts must be
nullified. There is only one way that can happen. A Sat Guru must
take over them, from Kal (Satan), and then he can just forgive us for
them. The Bible says that Christ stood as a ransom for many. This
is the only way, we can get out from under that huge karmic debt.

Michael

"Matthew 16: 19 And I will give unto thee
the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever
thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in
heaven. MM: This verse is so important, I thought I would discuss
it some more. Christ: And I will give unto
thee the keys of the kingdom of
heaven MM: This means that only Saints have access to the Kingdom
of Heaven, i.e. Sach Khand. The Supreme Being has
entrusted them with those keys. When he appoints someone to
act as a Sat Guru (True Master), then he gives them
those keys. Christ: and whatsoever thou shalt
bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven MM: This means that when a Saint initiates someone, they
have already been taken to the Kingdom of Heaven. It
has already been done. We have to realize it, and we
can realize it by meditation. The KEY is, however,
that both the disciple and the Master must be living.
No Past Master can take any disciples from this
physical world to the Kingdom of
Heaven. Christ: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be
loosed in heaven. MM: This is very important,
and probably not understood by most of us. It means
that there are two kinds of people, who come to the
Saints. Some will follow him, many will reject him. Some
will even consider him to be foolish. Those who reject
him will be "loosed," on earth. When they die, they
will also be "loosed," in heaven. So, in conclusion,
what Christ is saying, is that if we have a Master,
then he will meet us at the time of death, and we will
not have to face Satan, or one of his agents. If we
have rejected the Master, then we will have to face
Satan, or one of his agents at the time of death. Those
who reject the Master will not get any protection
from the Master. That is what he meant by "loosed," in
heaven. Michael"

Words are so limited that they can't begin to describe the lesson
to others. You are just remembering what you once knew.

-Initiation from a Sat Guru allows us to be guided by him on the inner planes. They qualify us for the higher regions. With meditation, we can meet the inner radiant form of our Master. He talks to us there, and bestows grace. From then upwards, we are safe, as long as we reject the temptations of Satan. But our Guru can protect us from that too.

here:

MM Update:
All Saints, Perfect Mystics, Mahatmas, Faqirs, and Murshids, draw on
the light and power of the same source. Some prophets were operating
from lower levels of consciousness, which would have been superior to
ordinary levels used by ordinary men, of course. Saints, however,
were operating from the very highest level. It is the source of the
Shabd, Nam, Holy Spirit, Kalma, Sultan-ul-Azkar, Bang-i-Asmani, etc...

Here we see that the Koran gives credit to Jesus, that he was ranked
among these Param Saints. Muhammad also gave his teachings from the
same source, the Supreme Being. Even Western Masters, such as
Goethe, Carlyle, and Emerson, have recongized this. It is a pity,
that today, it seems that Christianity and Islam seem to be locking
horns over certain worldly issues. Muhammad and Christ both taught
the path of love.

We should try to learn spirituality from the Living Masters, to avoid
all the confusion.

Michael

Here is just a random something Michael has said:

Jeremy: That is not my understanding. Where,
in the new testament does it say that 1. John the
Baptist was a True Master, 2. Jesus was his
follower.? Michael: Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them
that are
born of women there hath not risen a greater than John
the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the
kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of
women there is not a greater prophet than John the
Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is
greater than he. Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he
was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw
the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and
lighting upon him: Mark 1:10 And straightway coming
up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and
the Spirit like a dove descending upon
him: Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily
shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from
heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am
well pleased. John 1:32 And John bare record,
saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a
dove, and it abode upon him. Michael: The
above verses mention that no one had ever been greater
than John the Baptist. That put him at the same level
as Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah,
etc., etc... Then, it is well known that John
the Baptist baptized Jesus. Some of the verses above
reveal that Jesus immediately had inner vision. Luke
3:22 even says the Holy Ghost even descended in a
bodily shape. This must have been the Radiant Form of
the Master, John the Baptist. This happened at the
time of Jesus initiation, remember? Michael

monkyies

04-05-2010, 08:18 AM

only 12?? whatever happened to infinite consciousness?? Sounds like sun cult worship to me.

He was speaking of only the 3rd stage. The light of the higher stages cannot be put into any numerical conception.

It has nothing to do with the sun cult. He was only speaking about the level of brightness found at those levels.

monkyies

04-05-2010, 08:35 AM

The deeper teachings are so sublime that when you
grasp it you realize you have self-learned the teaching a very long time
ago.

Words are so limited that they can't begin to describe the lesson
to others. You are just remembering what you once knew.

-I posted earlier on this thread this:

Shakespeare:
Though yet, heaven knows, it is but as a tomb
Which hides your life and shows not half your parts.

MM:
Very beautiful. Walt Whitman wrote that he was only giving us HINTS
of the truth in "Leaves of Grass." Similarly, Shakespeare is saying
that he is only giving HALF of the teachings. What is half of the
teachings? It is the Sant Mat theory; to find a Master, follow him,
do the spiritual meditation, raise the consciousness to the THIRD EYE
CENTER, and beyond. That is about half of the teachings. The other
half involves internal mystic transport in the company of the True
Master.

And

"I read a message the other day, that someone wrote that Sant Mat was
outdated. This is what Shakespeare is saying, also, with his
reference to an "antique song." Sure, the teachings are old, but
there is no other way to realize God. It is God's own method. It
has been on earth for billions of years, and it will continue for
billions more. There is no other way to go beyond mind and matter,
to realize the Supreme Being. We must follow a Master, who has that
access himself, and has become absorbed in Shabd, Nam, or Holy
Spirit. This teaching will never change. We have to die while
living. We still die the same as those, who died billions of years
ago. The soul leaves the body and goes to the next plane of
consciousness. So, the inner ascent never changes."

frton

04-05-2010, 11:14 AM

monkyies

My friend, you really seem like sincerely seeking person. Then should be much more careful when giving your trust.

The words you are citing are mixture from scriptures and speeches of saints without the hearth that made them alive. Empty shells forming false picture, lie that furthers specific agenda. Can you not see it?

If using example from the last page one can be left with the notion that John is greater than Jesus (if his radiant form is initiating him) even though Jesus himself says that He (Jesus, least - later born) is greater. When Jesus says that John is the greatest man born from woman he means John attained the highest state of mortal consciousness. But Christ is son of god and born of the divine and therefore much greater. Also John testifies that he isn't worthy to even touch his shoes. How can he initiate him?

I'm not going to comment on the other thoughts you seems to be learned person and could do it for yourself. Just know that trust in the wrong person could be destructive. That's why Jesus say that he (Christ the only true/sat guru) is the good shepherd and there will come ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that come to steal and kill.

It's better without guru than with such wolf. Do you doubt that god is fully capable to show you the secret room, open your ears for the holy sound, satisfy your soul with his golden light grace if you humbly ask and this is most important thing for you? He don't need the help of his messengers for that, even though they can strengthen people's faith showing the good example.

Just suggesting to open your eyes and ears more may be you can spot something finer.

evenus_cinatus

04-05-2010, 02:19 PM

newworldengineer

04-05-2010, 02:32 PM

nectars

04-05-2010, 06:25 PM

From my perspective, people on this site are seekers of Truth. If they want the highest Truth, they can find it in Sant Mat.

If you have a problem with Michael Martin, there are two other Gurus who have also reached the pinnacle of Spirituality.

They are Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji and Pir Zia Inayat Khan. I've mentioned all three of these Gurus before.

There are others, though they dont consider themselves gurus. Again, be careful what your buying into here.

phildee3

04-05-2010, 08:59 PM

There are others, though they dont consider themselves gurus. Again, be careful what your buying into here.

Really!
Best to shop around.
Have you checked ebay?

Here's one of my faves:
http://www.wakeuplaughing.com/

nectars

04-05-2010, 09:21 PM

Really!
Best to shop around.
Have you checked ebay?

Here's one of my faves:
http://www.wakeuplaughing.com/

Yehh!! You didn't know?!?!

Man, check out this dude!

http://puppetji.com/ohm/

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc126/iShmeker/ace_ventura.gif

-_^

monkyies

04-05-2010, 11:43 PM

My friend, you really seem like sincerely seeking person. Then should be much more careful when giving your trust.

-Hello friend. Yes I like to think that I'm a fairly sincere seeker of Truth. I try to give Michael Martin a chance. I can tell that he himself IS sincere. He is teaching the path of the Shabd. That itself is a high criterion. Soami Ji, the first Guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, said this. He in fact said that let the ONLY criterion of choosing a Master be that he teaches the path of the Shabd.

The words you are citing are mixture from scriptures and speeches of saints without the hearth that made them alive. Empty shells forming false picture, lie that furthers specific agenda. Can you not see it?

-I think it helps when they quote scriptures. If they didn't, then we'd be lost. We would be left with man made interpretations. Normal man cannot understand the scriptures. They have not had the inner experience to understand them.

If using example from the last page one can be left with the notion that John is greater than Jesus (if his radiant form is initiating him) even though Jesus himself says that He (Jesus, least - later born) is greater. When Jesus says that John is the greatest man born from woman he means John attained the highest state of mortal consciousness. But Christ is son of god and born of the divine and therefore much greater. Also John testifies that he isn't worthy to even touch his shoes. How can he initiate him?

-I myself cannot say much. Michael Martin has a site, I've posted it earlier. I'll paste what Michael has said on this topic:

>According to Sant Mat literature, Saints
> never form religions, yet St Paul is said to be the founder of
> Christianity according to Julian Johnson.

MM:
Well, I don't think that was his intention, and as you must know,
Christianity is today, something very different than what St. Paul
was teaching. St. Paul laid emphasis on the Holy Spirit
(meditation). This has been mostly forgotten in the Christianity of
today, although prayer is still practiced by many. St. Paul
mentioned the levels of consciousness to the Father, and
the "celestial body," of Christ, which had risen. Another point is
that the Bible might have been altered with regards to many of the
teachings of St. Paul. The architects of the Christian Religion
wanted to make Jesus Christ the superstar, so John the Baptist,
Peter, and Paul, were giving lesser roles. I think as long as St.
Paul was alive, he was preaching Pure Sant Mat, and after his demise
the mysticism degenerated into a religion. There are some
indications that Paul might have left a successor, in Paul's
letters. I can't say exactly where the line between mysticism and
religion was drawn, but at some point, the mysticism degenerated to a
religion.

I'm not going to comment on the other thoughts you seems to be learned person and could do it for yourself. Just know that trust in the wrong person could be destructive. That's why Jesus say that he (Christ the only true/sat guru) is the good shepherd and there will come ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that come to steal and kill.

-Okay. It seems that you have more faith in something else, rather than a Living Master. I'd also advise you to be careful with trusting past masters. Sant Mat has a lot of information on that, you can look it up. All Masters have had their own Master. It is a succession. A lineage. Some lines end, some keep going, and some begin.

If every Master of all time has needed a living Master, then we will too. Let's be a little humble here. You may not have faith in Michael Martin, okay. But I can tell you as fact that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas lineage of Gurus is the highest of the high. Michael Martin was initiated by the predecessor of the current RSSB Guru, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji (1916–1990).

So let's try to understand who these Masters really are claiming to be. We cannot and should not instantly disagree with them. We absolutely positively HAVE to find and search for a living Sat Guru.

Whether you choose MM or Pir Zia or Gurinder Singh. Even if it is none of those. Your life would not be wasted if you spent the whole time looking for a living Master. You need that to realize the Father. It's indispensable.

----------------------

It's better without guru than with such wolf.

-I think that we should not think this way, no. We leave it up to God, yes. God is the one who takes us from the wolf to the True Master. God WILL guide us to the true living Master. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

If we are sincere, then God will bring us to Him. We need to find a Living Son of God. We cannot settle for past Masters. At all cost, do not settle for nothing.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT waste your human life.

I cannot stress more the importance of the True living Master. They ARE out there. Have faith. I've mentioned three of them. If you can't have faith in Michael Martin, that may be understandable. He is harder to have faith in.

But the other two Gurus I've mentioned have large organizations, and a rich lineage going back a long time. Pir Zia's lineage goes back 800 years.

I can tell you for fact that Pir Zia and Gurinder Singh are the Highest God in human form.

Do you doubt that god is fully capable to show you the secret room, open your ears for the holy sound, satisfy your soul with his golden light grace if you humbly ask and this is most important thing for you?

-I am not. But I know that he has his own way. There is also a negative power called Satan that has the duty to tempt souls to stay here. He will try to keep the souls as far from the Sat Guru as possible. But when it comes down to it, God's own method is for us to meet the living Sat Guru and learn the instructions from him.

This is no small thing, we need a living master, period. We will get lost on the inner journey if we go at it alone. We want to go to the HIGHEST level within, not just some lower mental planes or anything like that.

He don't need the help of his messengers for that, even though they can strengthen people's faith showing the good example.

-Please don't make a mockery of God and his Saints. They have been on earth at all times since the beginning of the creation. They are here to take the sincere seekers home. Some people will not follow the Saints, they are not ready to go home. But if we are not accompanied by a living Master, we will not realize God in this life, or the next. We don't know when we'll get another opportunity.

Just suggesting to open your eyes and ears more may be you can spot something finer.

-What is "finer" would be the radiant form of your living Master.

monkyies

04-05-2010, 11:47 PM

Those who tread the true path use the fewest words to describe the way.
Beware of those who entice you with complicated wordy arguments since it can only boggle the mind and keep you entraped within the "Prison of Words and Symbols."

Are we going to believe you or the Masters? We can choose for ourselves. The readers can decide for themselves.

The teaching of the Gurus is very simple. They say: close your eyes, and concentrate at the point between the eyebrows, and repeat this mantra (they give one) mentally to concentrate the mind.

I am not a Guru I'm just a seeker. I've given three names: Michael Martin Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji and Pir Zia Inayat Khan.

All three of them are the highest of the high in spirituality. There really is nobody who is higher. Even in the light and sound Sant Mat department, these three are the greatest there is.

Readers can look these three up, and their teaching, Sant Mat, for themselves.

monkyies

04-05-2010, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by evenus_cinatus
Those who tread the true path use the fewest words to describe the way.
Beware of those who entice you with complicated wordy arguments since it can only boggle the mind and keep you entraped within the "Prison of Words and Symbols."

the undisputed truth.

-There is nothing complicated about going within with a Guru's form.

Whose form do you want to go within with? Why not go within with the mental form of someone who himself has gone within?

Using the fewest words possible has nothing to do with Truth. Truth is given by the Sat Guru, whether or not it is kept short. The Saints come here and take a stand for the Truth they sacrifice themselves for the Truth.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 12:06 AM

There are others, though they dont consider themselves gurus. Again, be careful what your buying into here.

These three have been commissioned by the highest Lord to initiate.

There are others, yes who have reached a certain point within. But they are not appointed by God to lift the souls.

Michael Martin has said this:

Every Master has had a Master, whether history
has recorded it, or not. My own experience, 37 years of
meditation, has convinced me that nobody will realize God
without a Master. The regions inside are vast. Mind,
Satan, and Karma, are insurmountable obstacles
without the Master. By following the Master, who has
been commissioned by God, however, all doors are open, our sins
are forgiven, and we again, become one with the Supreme
Being. Michael

nectars

05-05-2010, 01:16 AM

My friend, you really seem like sincerely seeking person. Then should be much more careful when giving your trust.

Not sure who your refering to here but the last post by myself and I think phildee3 were messing around.

Normal man cannot understand the scriptures. They have not had the inner experience to understand them.

This is false on two counts. It presumes no one other than these gurus has has the realiztion to any degree, and also that there is such a thing as a "normal man" while simultaneously being a "distortion of truth" in that it refutes(or suggests) that "all men are born equal" is false.

Consciousness level, comprehension and understanding of the Truth and Reality differ yet the essence of man is identical in every instance.

If using example from the last page one can be left with the notion that John is greater than Jesus (if his radiant form is initiating him) even though Jesus himself says that He (Jesus, least - later born) is greater. When Jesus says that John is the greatest man born from woman he means John attained the highest state of mortal consciousness. But Christ is son of god and born of the divine and therefore much greater. Also John testifies that he isn't worthy to even touch his shoes. How can he initiate him?

Christ is not a man. That which Jesus was he recognised in John even if John didn't fully comprehend it. Another pressumption is here also in that "John had reached the highest level of consciousness man". This is an opinion, not a fact in any way, shape or form. It also negates the possibility of Jesus(if an actual man) being incapable of being what he claims to be.

I'm not going to comment on the other thoughts you seems to be learned person and could do it for yourself. Just know that trust in the wrong person could be destructive. That's why Jesus say that he (Christ the only true/sat guru) is the good shepherd and there will come ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that come to steal and kill.

He actually infered that the only true guru was the Father approached through Christ. The parable of the good sheperd doesn't refer to physical beings, assuming such is what got religion into the mess its in in the first place.

Okay. It seems that you have more faith in something else, rather than a Living Master. I'd also advise you to be careful with trusting past masters. Sant Mat has a lot of information on that, you can look it up. All Masters have had their own Master. It is a succession. A lineage. Some lines end, some keep going, and some begin.

If every Master of all time has needed a living Master, then we will too. Let's be a little humble here. You may not have faith in Michael Martin, okay. But I can tell you as fact that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas lineage of Gurus is the highest of the high. Michael Martin was initiated by the predecessor of the current RSSB Guru, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji (1916–1990).

I place my trust only in the Father and the Christ, are you suggesting that this is a lesser place to trust in than a human being?

Not all "masters" have had masters either, thats just nonsense.

The underlined part; how exactly do you know this for a fact? Is it not true to say that this is just another opinion of yours based on your past experiences with other teachings?

So let's try to understand who these Masters really are claiming to be. We cannot and should not instantly disagree with them. We absolutely positively HAVE to find and search for a living Sat Guru.

This is the thing, "yes" we can, otherwise we're placing trust in something we cant be sure should have it. It may not be the most productive thing to do, but then again, trusting in someone without proving their information to ourselves experientially could be deadly.

Whether you choose MM or Pir Zia or Gurinder Singh. Even if it is none of those. Your life would not be wasted if you spent the whole time looking for a living Master.

So people should look for a guru instead of going directly to the Big cheese(God)?

You need that to realize the Father. It's indispensable.

Agreed, but thats not dictated by any guru. They can point the way, but you have to take it and know the requirements otherwise its not going to happen.

It's better without guru than with such wolf.

Agreed, though most dont know the warning signs to look for. As the level of our own consciousness grows the spiritual traps become much more diverse and devious in that they move from the satanic(physical/material) to the luciferic Distortions of Truth.

-I think that we should not think this way, no. We leave it up to God, yes. God is the one who takes us from the wolf to the True Master. God WILL guide us to the true living Master. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

If we are sincere, then God will bring us to Him. We need to find a Living Son of God. We cannot settle for past Masters. At all cost, do not settle for nothing.

Your opinion again. Any earnest seeker will either be lead to the correct teaching for their growth or be given revelation(realization) of whatever is needed. This is not dependant on a guru.

If you wat to see thee(not "a") Son of the One True Living God then look around you.

I cannot stress more the importance of the True living Master. They ARE out there. Have faith. I've mentioned three of them. If you can't have faith in Michael Martin, that may be understandable. He is harder to have faith in.

But the other two Gurus I've mentioned have large organizations, and a rich lineage going back a long time. Pir Zia's lineage goes back 800 years.

I can tell you for fact that Pir Zia and Gurinder Singh are the Highest God in human form.

Again stating facts that are no more than opinion. Lineage means nothing outside of the East and being from the East is no prerequisite to Liberation/Self Realization.

Do you doubt that god is fully capable to show you the secret room, open your ears for the holy sound, satisfy your soul with his golden light grace if you humbly ask and this is most important thing for you?

No, which is why I trust "Him" and not some Guru.

-I am not. But I know that he has his own way. There is also a negative power called Satan that has the duty to tempt souls to stay here. He will try to keep the souls as far from the Sat Guru as possible. But when it comes down to it, God's own method is for us to meet the living Sat Guru and learn the instructions from him.

This is no small thing, we need a living master, period. We will get lost on the inner journey if we go at it alone. We want to go to the HIGHEST level within, not just some lower mental planes or anything like that.

And again a personal opinion. "Satan" aka "ego" has closer access to the Self than and guru can give you. It's part of Self as is everything else and serves its purpose well. This is where the difference between apparent "free will" and "free choice of identification comes in".

He don't need the help of his messengers for that, even though they can strengthen people's faith showing the good example.

Indeed, though this contradicts the claim of needing a guru.

But if we are not accompanied by a living Master, we will not realize God in this life, or the next.

Nonsense. It can very much influence it by being in proximity to the energy field of a teacher or Truth, but its not a fact as far as Spiritual Truth goes.

Just suggesting to open your eyes and ears more may be you can spot something finer.

-What is "finer" would be the radiant form of your living Master.

You really need to examine what you've bought into. I hope for your sake that the contradictions and suggestive yet subtle dependency being created in you is down to yourself and not the gurus your refering to.

Anyway all the best.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by monkyies
My friend, you really seem like sincerely seeking person. Then should be much more careful when giving your trust.

Not sure who your refering to here but the last post by myself and I think phildee3 were messing around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Normal man cannot understand the scriptures. They have not had the inner experience to understand them.

This is false on two counts. It presumes no one other than these gurus has has the realiztion to any degree, and also that there is such a thing as a "normal man" while simultaneously being a "distortion of truth" in that it refutes(or suggests) that "all men are born equal" is false.

Consciousness level, comprehension and understanding of the Truth and Reality differ yet the essence of man is identical in every instance.

-The essence is the same, but the Masters have realized the essence by meditation. Only they are competant to interpret the scriptures. You can choose, either their interpretation, or your own. It's all up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
If using example from the last page one can be left with the notion that John is greater than Jesus (if his radiant form is initiating him) even though Jesus himself says that He (Jesus, least - later born) is greater. When Jesus says that John is the greatest man born from woman he means John attained the highest state of mortal consciousness. But Christ is son of god and born of the divine and therefore much greater. Also John testifies that he isn't worthy to even touch his shoes. How can he initiate him?

Christ is not a man. That which Jesus was he recognised in John even if John didn't fully comprehend it. Another pressumption is here also in that "John had reached the highest level of consciousness man". This is an opinion, not a fact in any way, shape or form. It also negates the possibility of Jesus(if an actual man) being incapable of being what he claims to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
I'm not going to comment on the other thoughts you seems to be learned person and could do it for yourself. Just know that trust in the wrong person could be destructive. That's why Jesus say that he (Christ the only true/sat guru) is the good shepherd and there will come ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that come to steal and kill.

He actually infered that the only true guru was the Father approached through Christ. The parable of the good sheperd doesn't refer to physical beings, assuming such is what got religion into the mess its in in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Okay. It seems that you have more faith in something else, rather than a Living Master. I'd also advise you to be careful with trusting past masters. Sant Mat has a lot of information on that, you can look it up. All Masters have had their own Master. It is a succession. A lineage. Some lines end, some keep going, and some begin.

If every Master of all time has needed a living Master, then we will too. Let's be a little humble here. You may not have faith in Michael Martin, okay. But I can tell you as fact that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas lineage of Gurus is the highest of the high. Michael Martin was initiated by the predecessor of the current RSSB Guru, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji (1916–1990).

I place my trust only in the Father and the Christ, are you suggesting that this is a lesser place to trust in than a human being?

-Definately. To interpret spirituality correctly, we need a living Master. The living Masters interpret that we need a living Master. You think that by believing in a past Master (Christ) you can get salvation. No, this is a trick of the negative power.

You can call the Masters just normal men if you'd like. But they are equal to what Christ was when he was here in the flesh. You need a living Master or you will not realize the Father.

Not all "masters" have had masters either, thats just nonsense.

-They all did.

The underlined part; how exactly do you know this for a fact? Is it not true to say that this is just another opinion of yours based on your past experiences with other teachings?

-I know this because I am humble. I accept that there are people who are superior to me. I find the Masters to be superior to me in knowledge. They are teachers, and I won't ignore them. It would be like someone ignoring Christ if he were here now. Many DID ignore him when he was here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
So let's try to understand who these Masters really are claiming to be. We cannot and should not instantly disagree with them. We absolutely positively HAVE to find and search for a living Sat Guru.

This is the thing, "yes" we can, otherwise we're placing trust in something we cant be sure should have it.

-It's called faith. Find a Sat Guru, have faith in him, and follow his instructions implicitely.

It may not be the most productive thing to do, but then again, trusting in someone without proving their information to ourselves experientially could be deadly.

-You get the proof from meditation. You meditate under the guidance of your Master, then you get the proof from within.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Whether you choose MM or Pir Zia or Gurinder Singh. Even if it is none of those. Your life would not be wasted if you spent the whole time looking for a living Master.

So people should look for a guru instead of going directly to the Big cheese(God)?

-You will never ever realize God without a Guru. It is impossible. Sorry to be repetitive, but it's spirituality 101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
You need that to realize the Father. It's indispensable.

Agreed, but thats not dictated by any guru. They can point the way, but you have to take it and know the requirements otherwise its not going to happen.

-You cannot do it alone. You cannot realize God by reading and doing it yourself. You need a living Master, period. You will get nowhere with arrogance and ego. You need God as man to reach God. This is a simple fact. You may reach lower manifestations of God without a Master, but even that is harder, much harder. And to reach the higher levels, you need a Master for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
It's better without guru than with such wolf.

Agreed, though most dont know the warning signs to look for.

-Without a Master you will not make it to God. There are wolves but then there are also True Masters.

As the level of our own consciousness grows the spiritual traps become much more diverse and devious in that they move from the satanic(physical/material) to the luciferic Distortions of Truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
-I think that we should not think this way, no. We leave it up to God, yes. God is the one who takes us from the wolf to the True Master. God WILL guide us to the true living Master. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

If we are sincere, then God will bring us to Him. We need to find a Living Son of God. We cannot settle for past Masters. At all cost, do not settle for nothing.

Your opinion again.

-This is not my opinion this is the coviction of Masters since time immemorial. Go ask them, not me. Go to the site I posted and talk to Michael Martin yourself. I'm nothing, really. I'm just parroting what the Masters have said.

Any earnest seeker will either be lead to the correct teaching for their growth or be given revelation(realization) of whatever is needed. This is not dependant on a guru.

-I'm talking about sincere seekers of Truth who are destined to realize the Supreme Being. They WILL be directed to the living Master by God.

If you wat to see thee(not "a") Son of the One True Living God then look around you.

-Christ was talking to a certain people of a certain time period. You can interpret it your way, or the way of the Masters. The readers can have faith in you, or the Masters. The Masters say that there have been many Sons of God throughout the ages. To ignore this fact is to bar yourself from spiritual progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
I cannot stress more the importance of the True living Master. They ARE out there. Have faith. I've mentioned three of them. If you can't have faith in Michael Martin, that may be understandable. He is harder to have faith in.

But the other two Gurus I've mentioned have large organizations, and a rich lineage going back a long time. Pir Zia's lineage goes back 800 years.

I can tell you for fact that Pir Zia and Gurinder Singh are the Highest God in human form.

Again stating facts that are no more than opinion. Lineage means nothing outside of the East and being from the East is no prerequisite to Liberation/Self Realization.

-You can form your own opinions. If you want to go at it alone, without a living Master, that's your prerogative. Others are more careful than that. They know that God sends the Saviors for us to follow. If you think that you are greater than the three Masters I've recommended, that's your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Do you doubt that god is fully capable to show you the secret room, open your ears for the holy sound, satisfy your soul with his golden light grace if you humbly ask and this is most important thing for you?

No, which is why I trust "Him" and not some Guru.

-It is your choice to call them just "some Guru." Not everyone lacks faith this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
-I am not. But I know that he has his own way. There is also a negative power called Satan that has the duty to tempt souls to stay here. He will try to keep the souls as far from the Sat Guru as possible. But when it comes down to it, God's own method is for us to meet the living Sat Guru and learn the instructions from him.

This is no small thing, we need a living master, period. We will get lost on the inner journey if we go at it alone. We want to go to the HIGHEST level within, not just some lower mental planes or anything like that.

And again a personal opinion. "Satan" aka "ego" has closer access to the Self than and guru can give you.

-Satan is the ruler of the three worlds i.e. the physical astral and causal. The Sat Guru has access to the Supreme Being i.e. 8th stage.

It's part of Self as is everything else and serves its purpose well. This is where the difference between apparent "free will" and "free choice of identification comes in".

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
He don't need the help of his messengers for that, even though they can strengthen people's faith showing the good example.

Indeed, though this contradicts the claim of needing a guru.

-You are mocking God sending his Saviors on earth for us to follow. He sends them here as a sacrifice for man. The Sat Gurus don't just "strengthen people's faith showing the good example," they do much more than you can imagine. Let's be more open minded have some more humility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
But if we are not accompanied by a living Master, we will not realize God in this life, or the next.

Nonsense. It can very much influence it by being in proximity to the energy field of a teacher or Truth, but its not a fact as far as Spiritual Truth goes.

-No it is a fact. You need a living Master who has realized the Supreme Being to realize Him for yourself. This is not just my opinion it's the conviction of all Masters since the beginning of creation. You can form your own opinions and ignore them, if that's your prerogative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Just suggesting to open your eyes and ears more may be you can spot something finer.

-What is "finer" would be the radiant form of your living Master.

You really need to examine what you've bought into. I hope for your sake that the contradictions and suggestive yet subtle dependency being created in you is down to yourself and not the gurus your refering to.

-I've examined Sant Mat a lot more than you have. You seem to put the cart before the hourse i.e. jump the gun on this. You are jumping to conclusions without even giving it a chance. You have not even joined Michael Martin's groups and asked HIM questions. If you continue to ask me questions you won't get the best answers possible. I highly recommend you ask him questions.

Anyway all the best.

-I hope you realize that I'm just trying to help. I'm putting out there the tried and proven path of the Masters.

I would really appreciate it if you started to ask Michael these questions and comments, and not me. I gave the link earlier, and here it is again:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/

He will do much more justice to what I'm trying to say. He'll make things much more clear than what I can do.

__________________
2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]" - The Gospel of Thomas

phildee3

05-05-2010, 08:24 AM

...I think phildee3 were messing around.

Not at all.
Swami Beyondananda is more of a master than most.
Divine humor should be taken very seriously! ;)

monkyies

05-05-2010, 09:25 AM

I shall post an interpretation of Shakespeare's 6th sonnet, by Michael Martin:

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 6

VI.

Then let not winter's ragged hand deface
In thee thy summer, ere thou be distill'd:
Make sweet some vial; treasure thou some place
With beauty's treasure, ere it be self-kill'd.
That use is not forbidden usury,
Which happies those that pay the willing loan;
That's for thyself to breed another thee,
Or ten times happier, be it ten for one;
Ten times thyself were happier than thou art,
If ten of thine ten times refigured thee:
Then what could death do, if thou shouldst depart,
Leaving thee living in posterity?
Be not self-will'd, for thou art much too fair
To be death's conquest and make worms thine heir.

EOQ --- MM:
I will discuss what the Mystic, Shakespeare, has written.

Shakespeare:
Then let not winter's ragged hand deface
In thee thy summer, ere thou be distill'd:

MM:
Shakespeare is discussing Summer, as the time of spiritual
development. Winter is the time, when we are sinning, or perhaps,
lacking devotion to the Master. He says if our sinful times
dominate, then we will need "distilling." We would need more
purification, and this might necessitate another birth in this world.

Shakespeare:
Make sweet some vial; treasure thou some place
With beauty's treasure, ere it be self-kill'd.

MM:
Very beautiful. He uses the word "vial," here, as Saint Paul often
used the word, "vessel." It means the human body. If we are sweet,
we will be loving, and kind, to others. "Beauty's treasure," means
the wealth of the Master, which is the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit.
He says to treasure it at some level, internally, as it is never
found externally. He says if we don't attend to the Shabd practice,
then we won't be able to reach the Shabd. Our own ego would stand in
the way, and he has described this is "self-killed."

Shakespeare:
That use is not forbidden usury,
Which happies those that pay the willing loan;

MM:
The human form has been loaned us by Kal, or Satan. We should make
the best use of this human opportunity, by the practice of Shabd
Bhakti. If we do it, it will, naturally, make us happy. The Shabd
practice is not forbidden to satsangis, for they have been
initiated. The Master has invited them to follow the path, as Emily
Dickinson wrote.

Shakespeare:
That's for thyself to breed another thee,
Or ten times happier, be it ten for one;

MM:
If we follow the path of the Shabd Guru, then we will become "another
Being," as Maharaj Charan Singh Ji used to say. Then we can be ten
times happier, or even more than that. The bliss of Sach Khand is
incalculable, but Shakespeare is giving us a hint here.

Shakespeare:
Ten times thyself were happier than thou art,
If ten of thine ten times refigured thee:

MM:
Now, he gives a more complete picture. He says ten times ten, which
would be 100 times happier. The Shabd will transform us, or refigure
us, as he has written.

Shakespeare:
Then what could death do, if thou shouldst depart,
Leaving thee living in posterity?

MM:
Very beautiful. What effect could death have over us, if we are 100
times happier in the higher planes? The answer is obvious.

Shakespeare:
Be not self-will'd, for thou art much too fair
To be death's conquest and make worms thine heir.

MM:
He says we should not fall prey to EGO, but continue the Shabd
practice, which will conquer death. The body will be consigned to
the worms, but if we become ONE with Shabd, we will merge into it,
and go to higher planes.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 09:31 AM

A Shakespeare Quotation:

Men's judgments are
A parcel of their fortunes; and things outward
Do draw the inward quality after them,
To suffer all alike.
Antony and Cleopatra. Act iii. Sc. 13.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss this quotation of Shakespeare, the Great Mystic.

Shakespeare:
Men's judgments are
A parcel of their fortunes;

MM:
We judge according to our sanskaras, our pralahbd karmas. Some of us
are fortunate enough to judge correctly, as in the search for a True
Master. Others will be misled by False Masters, or Lesser Gurus.

Shakespeare:
and things outward
Do draw the inward quality after them,
To suffer all alike.

MM:
We all suffer, when our mind is running outside in the material
world, involved in lust, anger, greed, attachment, and pride. These
activities keep the mind and soul away from the internal Shabd, which
is the source of ETERNAL BLISS.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 09:32 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 11

XI.
As fast as thou shalt wane, so fast thou growest
In one of thine, from that which thou departest;
And that fresh blood which youngly thou bestowest
Thou mayst call thine when thou from youth convertest.
Herein lives wisdom, beauty and increase:
Without this, folly, age and cold decay:
If all were minded so, the times should cease
And threescore year would make the world away.
Let those whom Nature hath not made for store,
Harsh featureless and rude, barrenly perish:
Look, whom she best endow'd she gave the more;
Which bounteous gift thou shouldst in bounty cherish:
She carved thee for her seal, and meant thereby
Thou shouldst print more, not let that copy die.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the Mystic Adept, Shakespeare, has written.

Shakespeare:
As fast as thou shalt wane, so fast thou growest
In one of thine, from that which thou departest;

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare is explaining that, when we left the
regions beyond mind and maya, that we were waning. The pure souls
took the company of mind, started committing karmas, reincarnating,
etc., etc... All that he considers as waning, or the soul losing its
strength, being dragged around by mind.

He says we CAN grow just as fast as we fell, or that we CAN regain
our spiritual strength, just as fast. Then, by his grace, he
explains exactly how we can regain our former spiritual stature, that
which we lost eons ago. This is the all-important line: "In one of
thine, from that which thou departest;" We have to merge into the
SHABD FORM of the Master, and that is from what we departed ages
ago. Our soul left the Shabd, took the company of mind, and we have
been wandering lost for ages. So, in effect, Shakespeare is saying
that to regain our former spiritual stature, we need to find a SHABD
GURU, a GURUAVATAR, one who is completely absorbed in NAM, and also
in ANAMI PURUSH, the source of the NAM.

Shakespeare:
And that fresh blood which youngly thou bestowest
Thou mayst call thine when thou from youth convertest.

MM:
When we get initiated, we start growing, as spiritual children, as a
general rule. So, we reap the fruits of initiation more, generally,
after we have done the course of meditation, cleared some karmas,
etc., and spiritually matured.

Shakespeare:
Herein lives wisdom, beauty and increase:
Without this, folly, age and cold decay:

MM:
So, he says we should follow Sant Mat, the path of the Masters. Who
would choose the other alternative?

Shakespeare:
If all were minded so, the times should cease
And threescore year would make the world away.

MM:
Very beautiful. He says, in effect, if everyone followed Sant Mat,
the world would cease to exist, because there would be no more
imperfection, no more sinning. All souls would merge into the Shabd
Form of the Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
Let those whom Nature hath not made for store,

MM:
Uh, Oh! Shakespeare is making a distinction! He is saying that some
are "marked souls," and some are "not marked souls." I know this
might irk some, who do not believe in the "marked souls teaching."
This is another corroboration, however, that it is TRUE. This
teaching was given by Shakespeare some three centuries before Soami
Ji Maharaj.

The souls "not made for store," are the UNMARKED SOULS. The MARKED
SOULS will be STORED in SACH KHAND for ETERNITY.

Shakespeare:
Harsh featureless and rude, barrenly perish:

MM:
Maybe he is explaining why they are NOT MARKED? If they are RUDE,
then they have too much EGO to be marked. We have to please the
Lord, generally speaking to get the grace of HIS MARKING.
Shakespeare appears coldhearted here, saying to let them barrenly
perish. But, if we don't love the Saints, and we have TOO MUCH EGO,
then we are coldhearted, also. We have to reap what we sow. The
perishing will continue, life after life, until we find a Master and
have faith in him.

Shakespeare:
Look, whom she best endow'd she gave the more;

MM:
This means the Saints, for they are the best endow'd.

Shakespeare:
Which bounteous gift thou shouldst in bounty cherish:

MM:
The Masters got absorbed into Nam, and we can also enjoy that
bounteous gift, if we follow the Master and merge into his Shabd Form.

Shakespeare:
She carved thee for her seal, and meant thereby

MM:
This is clearly, unequivocally, referring to the "marked souls,"
again. The "seal," means that marking. The Lord has groomed the
souls to be marked. Some have even come up from lower species to be
marked by the All-Merciful. He will tell us what the marking means.

Shakespeare:
Thou shouldst print more, not let that copy die.

MM:
As I mentioned, if we merge into the Master, then we become him. We
become a Master. So, Shakespeare is saying that we can continue the
line of Masters, if we will merge into our Master. The Lord has
showered his grace on us, and naturally, we should also share grace
with others. If we find someone seeking the truth, then if we are a
Master, we can initiate them. If not, then we can guide him to the
Living Master of the time. It is all SEVA.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 09:33 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 13

XIII.
O, that you were yourself! but, love, you are
No longer yours than you yourself here live:
Against this coming end you should prepare,
And your sweet semblance to some other give.
So should that beauty which you hold in lease
Find no determination: then you were
Yourself again after yourself's decease,
When your sweet issue your sweet form should bear.
Who lets so fair a house fall to decay,
Which husbandry in honour might uphold
Against the stormy gusts of winter's day
And barren rage of death's eternal cold?
O, none but unthrifts! Dear my love, you know
You had a father: let your son say so.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the Mystic Adept, Shakespeare, has written.

Shakespeare:
O, that you were yourself! but, love, you are
No longer yours than you yourself here live:

MM:
Shakespeare is speaking to someone, as a Master would speak to a
disciple. We are not ourselves, when we are dancing to the tune of
Satan, and taking the illusion as real. He is trying to teach, that
our real form is beyond mind and maya. It is, in fact, the Supreme
Being.

Shakespeare:
Against this coming end you should prepare,

MM:
Christ said, "Lay up for yourself treasure in heaven, that neither
thief, nor moth, can corrupt." We will die, and we won't take
anything but our mind, soul, and whatever spiritual progress we were
able to achieve during this lifetime.

Shakespeare:
And your sweet semblance to some other give.

MM:
We should realize the Supreme Being, who is our sweet semblance, then
give the same "initiation," to others. Shakespeare is speaking of
the highest ideal.

Shakespeare:
So should that beauty which you hold in lease
Find no determination: then you were
Yourself again after yourself's decease,

MM:
"That beauty which you hold in lease," means the Living Master. He
has been sent by God, and has been loaned to us for a particular
period. The Bible mentioned that John the Baptist came for
a "season," and many rejoiced in his light. We should merge into
him, so that he will not find any determination. We should become
indistinguishably ONE with him. If we can do that, during our
lifetime, then of course we will go straight to Anami Desh, that
Nameless Region, when we die. Then we will be ourself, the Supreme
Being.

Shakespeare:
When your sweet issue your sweet form should bear.

MM:
Shakespeare advises us to realize God, become ONE with him, and
initiate others on the path.

Shakespeare:
Who lets so fair a house fall to decay,
Which husbandry in honour might uphold
Against the stormy gusts of winter's day
And barren rage of death's eternal cold?

MM:
This is a cryptic message. The "fair house," is the Living Master,
or if we become a Living Master, then it is our own body. The
word "uphold," is a keyword here. The Master is more than just the
physical body. All Masters must die. Shakespeare knows this. So,
we have to "uphold," his real form, the Shabd Form, or whatever form
we have been able to realize. The highest form of the Master is the
same as that of Anami Purush. That "upheld," form of the Master is,
of course, beyond all dissolution. That True Form is Eternal,
Everlasting, and Perpetual.

Shakespeare:
O, none but unthrifts! Dear my love, you know
You had a father: let your son say so.

MM:
"Unthrifts," is Shakespeare's way of saying "manmukhs." They didn't
save any spiritual wealth. They let the body decay, and left
penniless, with regards to spirituality. Then, Shakespeare tells his
disciple, "You know you had a father." This means, "You know you had
a Sat Guru." Shakespeare says, "let your son say so." This
means "let your successor say so."

Shakespeare is discussing the highest ideal for us. He is chalking
out the highest path. We should become a Master, then we should
continue the line of Masters by leaving a successor, when we die.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 09:42 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 15

XV.
When I consider every thing that grows
Holds in perfection but a little moment,
That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows
Whereon the stars in secret influence comment;
When I perceive that men as plants increase,
Cheered and cheque'd even by the self-same sky,
Vaunt in their youthful sap, at height decrease,
And wear their brave state out of memory;
Then the conceit of this inconstant stay
Sets you most rich in youth before my sight,
Where wasteful Time debateth with Decay,
To change your day of youth to sullied night;
And all in war with Time for love of you,
As he takes from you, I engraft you new.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the Mystic Adept, Shakespeare, has written.

Shakespeare:
When I consider every thing that grows
Holds in perfection but a little moment,
That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows
Whereon the stars in secret influence comment;

MM:
This world is the Lord's play. It is a perfect play. The Lord is
within and without it. There is a balancing and counterbalancing,
which makes it less desirable, for sure, then the higher planes. It
is as perfect as could have been created. Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
used to tell us, "The Lord wanted to create the creation, and in
order to have the creation, it had to be imperfect." It is
imperfect, only when compared to the higher planes, otherwise the Law
of Karma makes it perfect at its own level.

"Whereon the star in secret influence comment," is a reference to
astrology, horoscopes, and destinies. Shakespeare is mentioning the
law of karma, which I just discussed, above. A "show," is unreal.
We know that, when the show is over.

Shakespeare:
When I perceive that men as plants increase,
Cheered and cheque'd even by the self-same sky,

MM:
Shakespeare notes that all life-forms are subservient to the law of
karma, from the Plant-Kingdom to Human Beings.

Shakespeare:
Vaunt in their youthful sap, at height decrease,
And wear their brave state out of memory;

MM:
Plants come and go. Humans come and go. It's the wheel of
reincarnations, the wheel of 84.

Shakespeare:
Then the conceit of this inconstant stay
Sets you most rich in youth before my sight,

MM:
We get so deceived by mind and maya, that we think we are rich
sometimes. Actually, we are spiritual beggars, dancing to the tunes
of Satan, Kal, Iblis, Mara, Mephistopheles, etc.... "Conceit," is
another name for EGO. Ego is what is holding the soul down, away
from its True Home.

Shakespeare:
Where wasteful Time debateth with Decay,
To change your day of youth to sullied night;

MM:
This happens inevitably, to those who have identified themselves with
body and EGO. We should find a Sat Guru, follow his instructions,
and become ONE with the Supreme Being.

Shakespeare:
And all in war with Time for love of you,

MM:
Very beautiful. Pure Sant Mat. The Master is at war with Time
(Kal). Master wants to take the disciple HOME. Kal wants to keep
him enmeshed in the wheel of reincarnations. Shakespeare points out
that the Master loves his disciples. We should take advantage of the
love available from a Living Master.

Shakespeare:
As he takes from you, I engraft you new.

MM:
Shakespeare has called Time, "HE." Maybe he is thinking of Satan?
So, the disciple might fall to the temptations of Satan, but there
are no failures in Sant Mat. Shakespeare is corroborating that Great
Truth. The disciple might fall, here and there, but the Master will
lift him up, and take him to his True Home.

Michael

infidelyork

05-05-2010, 10:09 AM

He teaches us how to leave this world and its "psychic vampires" altogether. Very few will understand what he really is. Some worthy souls will believe him and follow him.

'Heaven's Gate' cult anyone?....

monkyies

05-05-2010, 10:49 AM

'Heaven's Gate' cult anyone?....

Not all cults are bad, no. I don't know what heaven's gate is.

Although, Michael Martin actually did come across a person who mentioned "heaven's gate," and Michael said this:

MM:
"RSSB has nothing to do with Heaven's
Gate. Heaven's Gate is immaterial and irrelevant to
RSSB, which is the most spiritual organization in the
world today, IMHO. It is headed by a Godman..."

-RSSB is the spiritual organization Radha Soami Satsang Beas if anybody doesn't know by now.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 10:53 AM

Just by chance, the term "heaven's gate" has been mentioned by Shakespeare. But this reference to the term is obviously nothing to do with some cult called "heavens gate." I'll post it anyway:

Shakespeare:
Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
Haply I think on thee, and then my state,
Like to the lark at break of day arising
From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven's gate;

MM:
Very beautiful. Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji wrote that it is often
darkest before the dawn. When we become the "least," then, we can
become the "greatest." That is what Christ taught, also. "Heaven's
Gate," was probably a reference to Sach Khand (True Home).

monkyies

05-05-2010, 11:08 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 21

XXI.
So is it not with me as with that Muse
Stirr'd by a painted beauty to his verse,
Who heaven itself for ornament doth use
And every fair with his fair doth rehearse
Making a couplement of proud compare,
With sun and moon, with earth and sea's rich gems,
With April's first-born flowers, and all things rare
That heaven's air in this huge rondure hems.
O' let me, true in love, but truly write,
And then believe me, my love is as fair
As any mother's child, though not so bright
As those gold candles fix'd in heaven's air:
Let them say more than like of hearsay well;
I will not praise that purpose not to sell.

MM:
As usual, I'll discuss what the Godman, William Shakespeare, has
written.

Shakespeare:
So is it not with me as with that Muse
Stirr'd by a painted beauty to his verse,

MM:
The "painted beauty," must have been God in a woman's form, which was
mentioned in the last Sonnet. This beatific vision has inspired him
to write this Sonnet, apparently. He says, basically, that he was
inspired "inside," by mystic transport, and now that inspiration,
still with him, is being written in verse, presumably for the benefit
of his disciples, or sincere seekers of truth, even generations to
come. Thomas Carlyle, another Perfect Mystic Adept, wrote that there
would be a spiritual relationship between his readers and him, even
if they were to read his teachings long after his death.

Shakespeare:
Who heaven itself for ornament doth use

MM:
Shakespeare knows that he is an instrument in the hands of the Lord.
The Lord uses the Masters as "ornaments," to attract us, and if we
fall in love with the Master, then our salvation is assured.

Shakespeare:
And every fair with his fair doth rehearse
Making a couplement of proud compare,

MM:
This is about the disciple trying to become one with the Master.
Both Master, and Disciple, are FAIR, because they are loved greatly
by the Supreme Being. The rehearsal is the daily meditation, which
is an attempt, by the disciple to leave his body, and to merge into
the subtle form of the Master, which is known as Shabd, Nam, Holy
Ghost, Holy Spirit, Bani, Kalma, Bang-i-Asmani, Logos, Music of the
Spheres, etc., etc... If the disciple can do that, the Lord will be
proud of the Master, and the Disciple. Very beautiful couplet by
Shakespeare.

Shakespeare:
With sun and moon, with earth and sea's rich gems,
With April's first-born flowers, and all things rare
That heaven's air in this huge rondure hems.

MM:
Shakespeare is discussing a Mystic Truth. Everything is within us.
We can see the Astral Forms of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Sea, Flowers,
Rare Things, etc... All is like an open book to the Mystic. My
Master used to say, that we can see things as clearly as pickles in a
pickle jar. This is the same teaching, which Shakespeare is sharing
with us. "That heaven's air," means that level of consciousness
within us. There are seven skies, seven stages, seven levels,
however you want to refer to them, between the physical plane, and
the Supreme Being.

Shakespeare:
O' let me, true in love, but truly write,
And then believe me, my love is as fair
As any mother's child, though not so bright
As those gold candles fix'd in heaven's air:

MM:
Shakespeare asks us to believe him. We must follow the teachings
with faith in the beginning. This essential faith, has been taught
by all Great Mystics. Until we open our spiritual eyes within, we
will have to go on faith. After meeting the Master within, our faith
becomes conviction, and solid like a rock. That is why Christ called
Peter, the rock. Althought the Master, at this level, is very
beautiful, he is not as bright as the "gold candles," which we see in
the first stage, the Astral Plane. Of course, the higher we go, the
brighter the spiritual light becomes. Shakespeare wants his disciple
to go within themselves, not to just be contented with the outer form
of the Master.

Shakespeare:
Let them say more than like of hearsay well;

MM:
The worldly people speak of hearsay. Shakespeare wants his disciples
to see with their own eyes, and they will have conviction, as I
mentioned above. He says to let the gold candles within, "say more."

Shakespeare:
I will not praise that purpose not to sell.

MM:
When we gain the ability to visit spiritual planes at will, this
should be digested. The Master advises to withold the spiritual
treasure, and to make even further spiritual progress. When we reach
our True Home, the Master will praise us. There is a time for
everything. If the Master praises us prematurely, then we might feel
lazy, and we might be very happy in some lower plane. The Master
wants us go ALL THE WAY HOME, and that is why, at times, the Master
will withold his praise of a loving disciple.

If we squander our spiritual wealth, then ego will inflate itself,
and the would be a huge stumbling block for us.

Michael

infidelyork

05-05-2010, 11:20 AM

Can we stop this BS interpretation of Shakespeare please?

Shakespeare:
Herein lives wisdom, beauty and increase:
Without this, folly, age and cold decay:

MM:
So, he says we should follow Sant Mat, the path of the Masters. Who
would choose the other alternative?

How the hell is that an interpretation? There is NOTHING in that quote that has any relevance to what 'MM' has decided it means.

Shakespeare:
If all were minded so, the times should cease
And threescore year would make the world away.

MM:
Very beautiful. He says, in effect, if everyone followed Sant Mat,
the world would cease to exist, because there would be no more
imperfection, no more sinning. All souls would merge into the Shabd
Form of the Sat Guru.

Once again, pick a Shakespeare quote at random, and then just type any old bollocks and say 'that's the hidden meaning!'

Leave Shakespeare alone!!! :mad:

monkyies

05-05-2010, 11:30 AM

You have your right to your own opinion. They are just dime a dozen allegations, although. Michael knows what he's doing, whether you have faith in him or not. I can clearly see that he IS correct. I have faith in him, and don't doubt that he's fully competant to do this work. If you think that you're superior to him, then follow your own ego instead. You should find some other Master then.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 11:36 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 31

XXXI.
Thy bosom is endeared with all hearts,
Which I by lacking have supposed dead,
And there reigns love and all love's loving parts,
And all those friends which I thought buried.
How many a holy and obsequious tear
Hath dear religious love stol'n from mine eye
As interest of the dead, which now appear
But things removed that hidden in thee lie!
Thou art the grave where buried love doth live,
Hung with the trophies of my lovers gone,
Who all their parts of me to thee did give;
That due of many now is thine alone:
Their images I loved I view in thee,
And thou, all they, hast all the all of me.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the Mystic Teachings of Shakespeare.

Shakespeare:
Thy bosom is endeared with all hearts,
Which I by lacking have supposed dead,

MM:
When we don't love the Lord (Master), then we often make the mistake
of thinking that he doesn't love us. Shakespeare says that he loves
all hearts, i.e. souls. Shakespeare tells us the truth, that it was
HIS FAULT for lacking love, bhakti, devotion, etc.. This is a VERY
IMPORTANT teaching. All those who have lost faith, should carefully
consider this teaching by Shakespeare. If we can learn from it, then
we can start again, by turning over a new leaf, or by being reborn
again.

Shakespeare:
And there reigns love and all love's loving parts,

MM:
Very beautiful, especially when we know of what he is thinking. He
means that in Sach Khand (True Home), there is an ocean of love, and
all the loving parts are the souls. They are countless. That is our
True Home, in the region of Bliss, Anand, etc...

Shakespeare:
And all those friends which I thought buried.

MM:
When we reach that stage, we know that all is included in that
REALITY. Everything below was just an illusion.

Shakespeare:
How many a holy and obsequious tear
Hath dear religious love stol'n from mine eye
As interest of the dead, which now appear
But things removed that hidden in thee lie!

MM:
This is corroborating what I just wrote, above. It is a truth, which
is difficult to put into words. We have to experience it, to know
it. We can start with faith in the teachings of the Saints, however.

Shakespeare:
Thou art the grave where buried love doth live,
Hung with the trophies of my lovers gone,
Who all their parts of me to thee did give;
That due of many now is thine alone:

MM:
Very beautiful, full of mystic significance. Within us, we have a
subconscious love, which we might not realize, but it is there,
nevertheless. All past lovers come from the same source, the Lord.
The Lord has given them credit for loving Shakespeare, the Living
Master. "That due of many now is thine alone," means that
Shakespeare has initiated many disciples NOW, and the Lord will be
responsible for them. As I mentioned, he is an ocean of love, and he
guides those who love the Saints. The Lord will help them to reach
their True Home, but the disciple will have to attend to his duty, as
well. The Lord is so merciful, however, that he makes us attend to
our duty, when he wants us to do it. All is in his hands.
Shakespeare has many disciples now, and they have varying degrees of
spiritual credit coming to them. Shakespeare says that it is "thine
alone," meaning that God will give them whatever credit they are
supposed to get for their Bhakti.

When a past love has died, he has no place to go but to God.
Shakespeare is writing from a high perspective, the omnipresence of
God. That is why he says that God is the grave for all lovers. We
tend to see a grave as a hole in the earth, but Shakespeare is
telling us what the truth is. No soul ever dies, and the Lord is
taking care of that soul.

Shakespeare:
Their images I loved I view in thee,

MM:
This is the perspective of Saints. They see all images of all
disciples as inside the Lord. The Lord circumscribes everything. He
is omnipresent.

Shakespeare:
And thou, all they, hast all the all of me.

MM:
Very beautiful, very mystical. He says that God, and all the souls,
circumscribe him, also. He is speaking from humility here. Faqir
Chand, also was speaking out of humility, when he said that he was
just a bubble of consciousness. The truth is that all is God, and
all is ONE, although we will have difficulty comprehending that,
until we realize it by following the Master, and attending to the
meditation.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 11:52 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 39

XXXIX.
O, how thy worth with manners may I sing,
When thou art all the better part of me?
What can mine own praise to mine own self bring?
And what is 't but mine own when I praise thee?
Even for this let us divided live,
And our dear love lose name of single one,
That by this separation I may give
That due to thee which thou deservest alone.
O absence, what a torment wouldst thou prove,
Were it not thy sour leisure gave sweet leave
To entertain the time with thoughts of love,
Which time and thoughts so sweetly doth deceive,
And that thou teachest how to make one twain,
By praising him here who doth hence remain!

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue discussing what the English Sat Guru has written.

Shakespeare:
O, how thy worth with manners may I sing,
When thou art all the better part of me?

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare hints that praising God is like praising
himself, for he and God are ONE.

Shakespeare:
What can mine own praise to mine own self bring?

MM:
This clearly indicates that He and God, are ONE. Now, he is
wondering what will be the results of praising himself. Actually, he
knows, but he is writing this for the benefit of spiritual seekers.

Shakespeare:
And what is 't but mine own when I praise thee?

MM:
Again, he emphasizes that praising God is the same as praising
himself. This is emphasis on the results of Sat Guru Bhakti. We
become indistinguishably ONE with the Master, and with God.
Sometimes, Saints seem repetitive, but it is only because the issue
is of such great importance, and WE NEED TO LEARN A LESSON.

Shakespeare:
Even for this let us divided live,
And our dear love lose name of single one,
That by this separation I may give
That due to thee which thou deservest alone.

MM:
So, he says, in effect, that Saints separated themselves from God,
due to his will, to praise themselves, or God. It is all for the
benefit of the spiritual seekers. That is why Saints are praising
themselves. The message is that God is within us. Christ
said, "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father." That self-
praise was not out of ego. It was out of a desire to tell everyone,
that they too, could become God, if they would follow the same path,
i.e. Sat Guru Bhakti. Saint Paul said, "Boasting has been excluded.
By what law? Of works? Nay, but of the law of faith." In other
words, Saints are not praising their own greatness, so much, or
praising their own meditation. They are already one with God, and
need to praise for themselves. They are simply trying to inspire us
to have FAITH, and follow the teachings, just as they did. If we
will do that, then we will realize God, just as the Saints have done.

Shakespeare:
O absence, what a torment wouldst thou prove,
Were it not thy sour leisure gave sweet leave
To entertain the time with thoughts of love,
Which time and thoughts so sweetly doth deceive,

MM:
Very beautiful. The "absence," is when we are attending to our daily
duties, and mind is off the inner light and sound. He says that
absence would be a torment, except that the Lord will again shower
his grace internally, with his love. Just as parents will love their
babies, talk baby-talk to them, etc., etc., so the Lord will again
shower his love on those, who can reach high enough to receive it.

Shakespeare:
And that thou teachest how to make one twain,

MM:
In order for a Sat Guru to do his duty, he will have to be twain
(two), or separated, as the Lord is subtle, and the Master is
operating with a physical body. The Lord shares the light, the
commandments, and then he explains how, when, where, etc., to the Sat
Guru, who will then, in turn, give the commandments to the satsang,
or to the people. This has been going on, since time immemorial.
The Lord has tried to help us, by sending the merciful Saints to our
level, but do we appreciate them? Do we appreciate the sacrifices,
which they have made for us? That is the question. We know that
many of them have been tortured and killed.

Shakespeare:
By praising him here who doth hence remain!

MM:
So, we have gone in a full circle discussing this praise of God,
which in effect, is praise of the Master, for both are One. We
should realize this, and try to start with the Master. God has sent
the Masters to help us. We can't skip over that all-important step.
So many Masters have had Masters, and if they needed one, then so
will we.

Michael

infidelyork

05-05-2010, 12:21 PM

Leave Shakespeare alone!!
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3425/chriscrockercries.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/chriscrockercries.jpg/)

monkyies

05-05-2010, 12:29 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 43

XLIII.
When most I wink, then do mine eyes best see,
For all the day they view things unrespected;
But when I sleep, in dreams they look on thee,
And darkly bright are bright in dark directed.
Then thou, whose shadow shadows doth make bright,
How would thy shadow's form form happy show
To the clear day with thy much clearer light,
When to unseeing eyes thy shade shines so!
How would, I say, mine eyes be blessed made
By looking on thee in the living day,
When in dead night thy fair imperfect shade
Through heavy sleep on sightless eyes doth stay!
All days are nights to see till I see thee,
And nights bright days when dreams do show thee me.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the English Guruavatar has written.

Shakespeare:
When most I wink, then do mine eyes best see,
For all the day they view things unrespected;

MM:
He says that we are viewing an ILLUSION, and that is why it is
unrespected. When we blink, we are not seeing the ILLUSION, even
though it be for a split second.

Shakespeare:
But when I sleep, in dreams they look on thee,
And darkly bright are bright in dark directed.

MM:
Very beautiful. This is an important Sant Mat teaching. When we go
inside, in meditation, or in dreams, we will see the Radiant Form of
the Master. It is Dhyan, the second step in Sant Mat. The Radiant
Form of the Master then guides, or directs, the soul forward to
higher planes, and we will hear the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit, also,
but he hasn't mentioned that part.

Shakespeare:
Then thou, whose shadow shadows doth make bright,

MM:
This is a little difficult to understand. If we love the Master's
physical form, then the Radiant Form will appear within brighter.

Shakespeare:
How would thy shadow's form form happy show
To the clear day with thy much clearer light,

MM:
Very beautiful. He is comparing the two Masters now, the inner one
(clearer light), and the outer one (shadow's form). He is really
posing a question, how can we be happy with the physical Master, once
we have seen the inner Master?

Shakespeare:
When to unseeing eyes thy shade shines so!

MM:
If we haven't seen the inner Master, then we tend to be content with
the outer Master. It is after seeing the inner Master, that we can
compare the two Masters. Of course, they are the SAME MASTER, but
just two different forms of the same Being.

Shakespeare:
How would, I say, mine eyes be blessed made
By looking on thee in the living day,
When in dead night thy fair imperfect shade
Through heavy sleep on sightless eyes doth stay!

MM:
Again, he asks how he can be happy with the physical Master, when he
sees his Radiant Form in meditation, during the night. He even says
that the Radiant Form is "thy fair imperfect shade." Why does he
praise the Radiant Form, then pigeonhole it, as something
imperfect?? Answer: It is imperfect compared to the form of Anami
Purush, which is the Perfect Form of the Master. Shakespeare is
discussiung the metaphysics of Sant Mat here, and it is quite
explanatory.

Shakespeare:
All days are nights to see till I see thee,

MM:
Very beautiful. In his cryptic way, he says that days (seeing the
physical Master) are like nights, because he is seeing the lower form
of the Master, the physical form, but if he sees the Radiant Form, it
is much brighter, like day.

Shakespeare:
And nights bright days when dreams do show thee me.

MM:
As I explained, when he sees the Radiant Form, the night becomes like
a bright day for Shakespeare.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 12:32 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 45

XLV.
The other two, slight air and purging fire,
Are both with thee, wherever I abide;
The first my thought, the other my desire,
These present-absent with swift motion slide.
For when these quicker elements are gone
In tender embassy of love to thee,
My life, being made of four, with two alone
Sinks down to death, oppress'd with melancholy;
Until life's composition be recured
By those swift messengers return'd from thee,
Who even but now come back again, assured
Of thy fair health, recounting it to me:
This told, I joy; but then no longer glad,
I send them back again and straight grow sad.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the English Master has written.

Shakespeare:
The other two, slight air and purging fire,
Are both with thee, wherever I abide;
The first my thought, the other my desire,
These present-absent with swift motion slide.

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare gets a lot of credit for putting the
highest teachings in such beautiful poetry. He did a commendable
seva for the world. He says that he can experience mystic transport,
at will. He can be present, or absent, from the inner Master, at his
discretion. This is the case with all Perfect Mystic Adepts. When
they are with the Supreme Being, he (SB) gives them his wishes, or
commands, and the Saint, being in the flesh with us, carries them out.

He says that in the form of "slight air," which means the inner
skies, and "purging fire," which means the spiritual light within, he
is omnipresent, and actually, ALWAYS WITH THE SUPREME
BEING, "wherever I abide," means wherever his physical form might
be. Shakespeare is telling us that the Master is not just flesh,
blood, and bones, but rather Holy Spirit, Shabd, Nam.

Shakespeare:
For when these quicker elements are gone
In tender embassy of love to thee,
My life, being made of four, with two alone
Sinks down to death, oppress'd with melancholy;

MM:
He means that if it is his desire, and thoughts, to be in the world
attending to his duties, then he feels melancholy. This is the
condition of all the Saints. They really don't like to be here, in
the physical world. They feel oppressed here by mind. They are not
attached to the world at all. Rather, they are attached to the
Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit.

Shakespeare:
Until life's composition be recured
By those swift messengers return'd from thee,
Who even but now come back again, assured
Of thy fair health, recounting it to me:

MM:
Again, he feels encouraged by his ability to be with the Supreme
Being at will. This is what gives the Saints spiritual strength to
continue carrying out the orders of the Supreme Being, even though
they feel like they are living in a pigsty.

Shakespeare:
This told, I joy; but then no longer glad,
I send them back again and straight grow sad.

MM:
He visits the Supreme Being, is joyous, then has to return to the
body, to carry out the duties of the Living Master of the time.
Returning to the physical world makes him sad. There are a couple of
Living Masters, today, carrying out the same duties as did
Shakespeare. Saints advise us not to waste our life, but follow them
with love and devotion. These opportunities don't happen often.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 12:36 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 47

XLVII.
Betwixt mine eye and heart a league is took,
And each doth good turns now unto the other:
When that mine eye is famish'd for a look,
Or heart in love with sighs himself doth smother,
With my love's picture then my eye doth feast
And to the painted banquet bids my heart;
Another time mine eye is my heart's guest
And in his thoughts of love doth share a part:
So, either by thy picture or my love,
Thyself away art resent still with me;
For thou not farther than my thoughts canst move,
And I am still with them and they with thee;
Or, if they sleep, thy picture in my sight
Awakes my heart to heart's and eye's delight.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll be happy to discuss what the English Guruavatar has written.

Shakespeare:
Betwixt mine eye and heart a league is took,
And each doth good turns now unto the other:
When that mine eye is famish'd for a look,
Or heart in love with sighs himself doth smother,

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare is giving us lessons in love, here. He
is teaching us how to invoke the grace of the Inner Master. He has
mentioned two ways we can invoke that Divine Grace from within, which
is the Shabd Form of the Master. The first way, is when we
have "intense longing." Shakespeare calls this "famished for a
look." The second way, is when we feel in love, to an extreme
degree. There are degrees of love, and we reap the fruits according
to the degree of our love. Shakespeare says, sometimes, he is
smothered in sighs of love. That is an extreme love, and all Saints
have this type of love.

Shakespeare:
With my love's picture then my eye doth feast
And to the painted banquet bids my heart;
Another time mine eye is my heart's guest
And in his thoughts of love doth share a part:

MM:
Wow! He mentions that when he sees the Radiant Form of the Master,
that is eye (Nirat) "doth feast." "My love's picture," is the
Radiant Form of the Master within. His heart sees it and wants it,
ultimately to the point of becoming ONE with it. He says his eye
(Nirat) also sees the Master, and it does share a part of that
Mystical experience. He teaches that love leads, then Nirat
follows. We must start with LOVE and FAITH in the Master. This
teaching is as old as time immemorial, and Shakespeare is giving us
another dose of that same teaching.

Shakespeare:
So, either by thy picture or my love,
Thyself away art resent still with me;
For thou not farther than my thoughts canst move,
And I am still with them and they with thee;

MM:
Surely this must be "present," not resent. I think what he has
written is self-explanatory, for the most part. He is basically
saying that he is with God, and God is with him. It is about the
ONENESS of the Sat Guru with the Creator.

Shakespeare:
Or, if they sleep, thy picture in my sight
Awakes my heart to heart's and eye's delight.

MM:
Very beautiful. He says if his thoughts sleep, i.e. if his mind is
still, then he sees the Radiant Form of the Master, or of Sat
Purush. This sight, naturally, awakens his love, to heart's delight,
and naturally it is to the delight of "eye," or Nirat, the power of
the soul to see. Saints attend to the worldly duties, but when their
attention is not needed outwardly, then they go back to the Supreme
Being.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 12:40 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 49

XLIX.
Against that time, if ever that time come,
When I shall see thee frown on my defects,
When as thy love hath cast his utmost sum,
Call'd to that audit by advised respects;
Against that time when thou shalt strangely pass
And scarcely greet me with that sun thine eye,
When love, converted from the thing it was,
Shall reasons find of settled gravity,--
Against that time do I ensconce me here
Within the knowledge of mine own desert,
And this my hand against myself uprear,
To guard the lawful reasons on thy part:
To leave poor me thou hast the strength of laws,
Since why to love I can allege no cause.

MM:
I'll discuss what the English Sat Guru has written.

Shakespeare:
Against that time, if ever that time come,
When I shall see thee frown on my defects,
When as thy love hath cast his utmost sum,
Call'd to that audit by advised respects;

MM:
The Sat Guru has the duty of leading the Sangat, i.e. congregation.
The individual members of the sangat are the advised respects.
Shakespeare is discussing about a hypothetical occasion, when God
might not be happy with the execution of his duty, as Sat Guru. He
says that God has cast on him his utmost sum, which means he has made
Shakespeare ONE with him, and he owns that storehouse of spiritual
treasure, known as Sach Khand.

Shakespeare:
Against that time when thou shalt strangely pass
And scarcely greet me with that sun thine eye,
When love, converted from the thing it was,
Shall reasons find of settled gravity,--

MM:
This is another description of what I wrote above. He says
the "sun," or the spiritual light within is God's eye, and sees
everything, as it is omnipresent. He says love has transformed
itself into something else, which as yet, he has not defined. He
mentions reasons of "settled gravity," which means the reasons are
his conduct on this physical plane. All of this corroborates what
Maharaj Charan Singh Ji mentioned many times. He would say, "We
should have a fear of offending the Father." Shakespeare is
discussing this very issue, offending the Father, and he says
Father's love might become something else. If it should become
wrath, then there is no place to hide. If even Saints want to please
the Father, then I think, even moreso for us, it would behoove us to
do the same.

Shakespeare:
Against that time do I ensconce me here
Within the knowledge of mine own desert,
And this my hand against myself uprear,
To guard the lawful reasons on thy part:

MM:
This is very cryptic. Shakespeare admits that he knows that he must
have offended the Father. Since he is ONE with the Father, then he
says he is uprearing his own hand against himself. This is beyond
our intellectual comprehension. He says the Father is the most
perfect, however. Christ said similarly, "Why callest thou me,
good? Only the Father is perfect." "Lawful," indicates that it has
something to do with karmic law.

Shakespeare:
To leave poor me thou hast the strength of laws,
Since why to love I can allege no cause.

MM:
So, as I mentioned, there is love between Saints and God, even though
sometimes, it is possible for a Saint to offend the Father, but it is
beyond our intellectual comprehension.

If anything is to be learned from this Sonnet, I think it is this.
Our karmas, our actions, are observed by the Father. Sometimes, we
might offend him. If Shakespeare, a Saint, could offend him, then
what about others? What about those who slander the Saints, calling
them frauds, charlatans, etc., etc..? As I mentioned recently, we
will be held accountable by the Father, if we have been initiated by
a True Master, and then we turn against that Master. If we offend
the Father, then his grace could become wrath. If it becomes wrath,
there is no place to hide.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:00 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 51

LI.
Thus can my love excuse the slow offence
Of my dull bearer when from thee I speed:
From where thou art why should I haste me thence?
Till I return, of posting is no need.
O, what excuse will my poor beast then find,
When swift extremity can seem but slow?
Then should I spur, though mounted on the wind;
In winged speed no motion shall I know:
Then can no horse with my desire keep pace;
Therefore desire of perfect'st love being made,
Shall neigh--no dull flesh--in his fiery race;
But love, for love, thus shall excuse my jade;
Since from thee going he went wilful-slow,
Towards thee I'll run, and give him leave to go.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the English Sat Guru has written.

Shakespeare:
Thus can my love excuse the slow offence
Of my dull bearer when from thee I speed:
From where thou art why should I haste me thence?
Till I return, of posting is no need.

MM:
"My love," is Shakespeare's Sat Guru. His "dull bearer," is his
sinful mind, at this stage in his spiritual development. "When from
thee I speed," means when mind is scattering itself in sin. He says
why should I go away from the Supreme Being. He needs no posting of
that fact, as he is already aware of his fall to the mind, but he
will return. Shakespeare was a spiritual warrior, and he indicates
that he will continue to fight with the mind, until it is conquered.

Shakespeare:
O, what excuse will my poor beast then find,
When swift extremity can seem but slow?
Then should I spur, though mounted on the wind;
In winged speed no motion shall I know:

MM:
This is pure Sant Mat. He is writing about the withdrawal of the
mind and soul from the extremities of the body. Mystic Adepts can
withdraw from the body in a split-second, but in the beginning
withdrawal, even from the extremities seems slow. He says should
I "spur," or try to force the mind at a greater speed? "Though
mounted on the wind," means that he has been initiated by a Shabd
Guru, and Shabd is faster than the wind. He is discussing the
paradox that his mind is slow, especially withdrawing from the body,
but the Shabd is fast.

"In winged speed no motion shall I know," means that a Mystic Adept
travels to the Lord instantaneously, without any feeling of speed.
In other words mystic flight in the Shabd is so fast, that no words
can do it justice.

Shakespeare:
Then can no horse with my desire keep pace;
Therefore desire of perfect'st love being made,
Shall neigh--no dull flesh--in his fiery race;
But love, for love, thus shall excuse my jade;

MM:
His says his "desire," which is really his love for the Supreme
Being, is incomparably fast, and nothing can keep pace with it.
Horses were the fastest mode of transportation in those days, so that
is why he mentions a horse.

"Therefore desire of perfect'st love being made," indicates that he
has been intiated by the Master, and he wants to make his love
perfect. This is the beginning of the path, which we commence with
love and faith in the Master.

"Shall neigh--no dull flesh--in his fiery race," means that he will
go beyond the flesh, experiencing mystic transport riding on the
Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit. "Fiery race," probably refers to the
spiritual light within, which we see on the way to the Supreme Being.

"But love, for love, thus shall excuse my jade;" is very meaningful.
He points out that he is following his Master as a result of his
love, or Bhakti. "For love," means that it is a result of his love
for the Master, and the Master's reciprocal love for him. All of
that will "excuse his jade." It means that his higher mind will
overcome the lower mind, as a result of Sat Guru Bhakti, and then the
Sat Shabd of the Parbrahm regions will nullify all karmas (his jade).

Shakespeare:
Since from thee going he went wilful-slow,
Towards thee I'll run, and give him leave to go.

MM:
Very meaningful, almost humorous. Shakespeare refers to his own mind
as "he." He says his mind went slowly away from God, but returning
he will be running, and give him (lower mind) leave to go.
Obviously, he is referring to the lower mind, which we leave behind
in Sant Mat, when we go to the third stage.

Michael

dontbeafraid

05-05-2010, 01:17 PM

Any spiritual 'teacher' and their so called "teachings" are just BALONEY. Those people are just conmen feeding your ego.

God, or the universe, or whatever you want to call it, is all around you and you are a part of it. The illusion is that you don't think you are.

infidelyork

05-05-2010, 01:18 PM

This looks easy, I thought I'd give it a go...
The Merry Wives of Windsor

Shakespeare: "Out of my door, you witch, you hag, you baggage, you polecat, you ronyon!"

InfidelYork: Beautiful. This is pure Sant Mat. He is obviously pointing out that the Master is indeed the answer that is sought and his clever use of the word Ronyon shows us all, without question, in which direction to look for the light and the higher mind.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:20 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 53

LIII.
What is your substance, whereof are you made,
That millions of strange shadows on you tend?
Since every one hath, every one, one shade,
And you, but one, can every shadow lend.
Describe Adonis, and the counterfeit
Is poorly imitated after you;
On Helen's cheek all art of beauty set,
And you in Grecian tires are painted new:
Speak of the spring and foison of the year;
The one doth shadow of your beauty show,
The other as your bounty doth appear;
And you in every blessed shape we know.
In all external grace you have some part,
But you like none, none you, for constant heart.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll discuss what the English Param Sant Sat Guru has written.

Shakespeare:
What is your substance, whereof are you made,
That millions of strange shadows on you tend?
Since every one hath, every one, one shade,
And you, but one, can every shadow lend.

MM:
Shakespeare is saying that we have all come from the Supreme Being,
and he is the light behind all the shadows. Dante Alighieri used the
words "shade," and "shadows," a lot, also.

Shakespeare:
Describe Adonis, and the counterfeit
Is poorly imitated after you;
On Helen's cheek all art of beauty set,
And you in Grecian tires are painted new:

MM:
He is discussing the beauty of the Supreme Being, as it is seen in
various aspects of maya, in this world. The Supreme Being permeates
this world. He describes a handsome man, Adonis, and beautiful
woman, Helen. Then, he says in other ways, we try to to express his
beauty.

Shakespeare:
Speak of the spring and foison of the year;
The one doth shadow of your beauty show,
The other as your bounty doth appear;
And you in every blessed shape we know.

MM:
He continues discussing the omnipresence of the Supreme Being. Walt
Whitman wrote that he was in every atom, and that every atom belonged
to him, as well as to his readers.

Shakespeare:
In all external grace you have some part,
But you like none, none you, for constant heart.

MM:
Very beautiful, and an expression of a sad truth. He says there is
no love affair between anyone, or anything, and God. Of course, the
exception would be the Saints. He says nobody loves God, and God
loves nobody, CONSTANTLY. We might think of God, once in a while,
but the Saints are practically thinking of him, constantly. God
loves us, to a degree, but how can he be loving us CONSTANTLY, for
example, when we are sinning? If we are sinning, we might be
provoking his wrath. Shakespeare knew the truth about God.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:22 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 55

LV.
Not marble, nor the gilded monuments
Of princes, shall outlive this powerful rhyme;
But you shall shine more bright in these contents
Than unswept stone besmear'd with sluttish time.
When wasteful war shall statues overturn,
And broils root out the work of masonry,
Nor Mars his sword nor war's quick fire shall burn
The living record of your memory.
'Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity
Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room
Even in the eyes of all posterity
That wear this world out to the ending doom.
So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
You live in this, and dwell in lover's eyes.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on what the Great English Mystic Adept
has written.

Shakespeare:
Not marble, nor the gilded monuments
Of princes, shall outlive this powerful rhyme;
But you shall shine more bright in these contents
Than unswept stone besmear'd with sluttish time.

MM:
Very beautiful. He is speaking to his disciples. He admits that
this is a powerful rhyme. It sounds like boasting, but Saint Paul
wrote that boasting had been excluded, in the interest of faith. So,
Shakespeare is trying to increase the faith in his disciples. He
tells them they will shine "more bright." Obviously, this refers to
the stages in Sant Mat, where the disciple is discarding the bodies,
or covering, which are over the soul, and diminish the light of the
soul. If we have a lamp, covered by three lampshades, then if we
start removing the lampshades, the lamp will give off more light, and
that is what Shakespeare means, here.

Shakespeare says that those who don't follow the Sat Guru, will be
like "unswept stone besmear'd with sluttish time." That is a pretty
frank, even graphic description, I would say. It simply means that
their souls will remain covered with mind, bodies, sins, numerous
reincarnations, etc., etc.. So, Shakespeare has offered us two
alternatives, one is to follow the Master, and the other is to remain
prisoner of Satan, the wheel of 84, etc.. It is up to us, which one
will we choose?

Shakespeare:
When wasteful war shall statues overturn,
And broils root out the work of masonry,
Nor Mars his sword nor war's quick fire shall burn
The living record of your memory.

MM:
Very beautiful. What is the living record of the memory of the
disciple? It is the Radiant Form of the Master, which he has placed
within his disciples. That form will guide his disciples home.
Christ said, "No man can pluck my sheep from my hand." There are no
failures in Sant Mat. All, whom have been initiated by the Master,
will reach their True Home, provided they maintain their love and
faith. If they should decide to turn against their own Master, then
it is up to the Master, what to do with his/her soul.

Shakespeare:
'Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity
Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room
Even in the eyes of all posterity
That wear this world out to the ending doom.

MM:
Very beautiful, and exlanatory. The Bhakti for the Sat Guru will be
ETERNAL. The world will even wear out, but the Master and Guru will
be ONE for all ETERNITY.

Shakespeare:
So, till the judgment that yourself arise,
You live in this, and dwell in lover's eyes.

MM:
Very beautiful, and Shakespeare is advising the disciple to be
LOVERS. If we are lovers, the we will be dwelling in lover's eyes.
It means that through love for the Sat Guru, we can gain release from
the wheel of reincarnations, from Satan, and reach our ETERNAL HOME.

He says, very important, that our judgment is due to our own
attitude. What judgment do we choose? Do we want to be judged as a
disciple who followed the Master, who loved him, or as a disciple,
who didn't have sufficient love for the Master, continued living a
sinful life, and even committed sins? So, Shakespeare is saying that
our judgement, which we will get, depends on our own choices. Either
we can be gurmukhs, or manmukhs.

All Saints give us the same teachings. It hardly makes any
difference whether it is Soami Ji Maharaj, Jesus Christ, Kabir, or
Shakespeare. It all hinges on Sat Guru Bhakti, and that is why I
insist that it is indispensable to realize God.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:27 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 57

LVII.
Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?
I have no precious time at all to spend,
Nor services to do, till you require.
Nor dare I chide the world-without-end hour
Whilst I, my sovereign, watch the clock for you,
Nor think the bitterness of absence sour
When you have bid your servant once adieu;
Nor dare I question with my jealous thought
Where you may be, or your affairs suppose,
But, like a sad slave, stay and think of nought
Save, where you are how happy you make those.
So true a fool is love that in your will,
Though you do any thing, he thinks no ill.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on what the English Sat Guru has written.

Shakespeare:
Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?
I have no precious time at all to spend,
Nor services to do, till you require.

MM:
Shakespeare is discussing his relationship with the Supreme Being,
Anami Purush. He is his slave, and his only real desire is to carry
out his orders. It is the same for all Sat Gurus. The Lord's will
gets priority for Sat Gurus.

Shakespeare:
Nor dare I chide the world-without-end hour
Whilst I, my sovereign, watch the clock for you,
Nor think the bitterness of absence sour
When you have bid your servant once adieu;

MM:
Shakespeare is always wanting to be with the Supreme Being, although
he will attend to his worldly duties, as they are given by the
Supreme Being to the Sat Guru. It is the same for all Sat Gurus.
Saints are happy to carry out the commands of the Supreme Being, but,
of course, they are happy to return to Sach Khand, when the duties
are over, also.

Shakespeare:
Nor dare I question with my jealous thought
Where you may be, or your affairs suppose,
But, like a sad slave, stay and think of nought
Save, where you are how happy you make those.

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare will not think of the Supreme Being in a
jealous way. Shakespeare knows that wherever the Supreme Being might
be showering his grace, that those souls will be very happy, the
recipients of that grace. Saints know that the Supreme Being knows
best when to bestow grace. Recently, Shakespeare mentioned that his
meetings with the Supreme Being might be spaced out to an extent. If
Saints are always in his august presence, it might be difficult for
them to function in this world. The upward pull would be so strong,
that they would not feel much inclined to be in this world, at all.

Shakespeare:
So true a fool is love that in your will,
Though you do any thing, he thinks no ill.

MM:
Very beautiful. Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji wrote a book, part of
Philosophy of the Masters, i.e. Gurmat Sidhant, called "My
Submission." This is proof that Shakespeare also submitted to God's
will. He will submit to whatever that will is. This is the same for
all Saints, Guruavatars, and Sat Gurus.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:31 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 59

LIX.
If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss
The second burden of a former child!
O, that record could with a backward look,
Even of five hundred courses of the sun,
Show me your image in some antique book,
Since mind at first in character was done!
That I might see what the old world could say
To this composed wonder of your frame;
Whether we are mended, or whether better they,
Or whether revolution be the same.
O, sure I am, the wits of former days
To subjects worse have given admiring praise.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue discussing what the English Master has written.

Shakespeare:
If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss
The second burden of a former child!

MM:
This is quite mystical, in my opinion. He is talking about the
cycles of time, in the lower regions, and the eternity of the Supreme
Being. We have gone from the Golden Age to the Iron Age, so many
times. There is really nothing new. Civilizations have risen and
fallen. He says it is a problem of our own minds, which wants to
invent something new, and then, out of ego, take credit for it. We
get no credit for it, actually. God has given us a soul, mind, and
body, etc., etc.. He gets the credit for all that. All our
existence is due to him. We are just a bubble of consciousness, as
Faqir Chand has pointed out.

This is probably a reference to the wheel of reincarnations, also, as
we have had past lives, but due to our karmas, we have a second
burden after this life, another reincarnation, if we don't follow the
Master. The "former child," is just a cryptic way of referring to a
previous birth. Shakespeare is really saying that all worldly
endeavors are useless. They just create more karmas for us. They
shackle us in iron chains, or golden chains. "Bear amiss," means
that we have fallen to the temptations of Satan.

Shakespeare:
O, that record could with a backward look,
Even of five hundred courses of the sun,
Show me your image in some antique book,
Since mind at first in character was done!

MM:
Shakespeare says to look back over the past 500 years, and look for
his (God's) image in some antique book. The Bard points out that
since God created mind for us, then we like to encapsule him, in
an "image." He is really formless, but we like to see some image of
him. God knows this, and that is why he comes to us in the form of a
Sat Guru. God has had images, at this level, and it has been in the
forms of Past Masters, such as Moses, Christ, Buddha, etc., etc...

Shakespeare:
That I might see what the old world could say
To this composed wonder of your frame;
Whether we are mended, or whether better they,
Or whether revolution be the same.

MM:
Very beautiful. Very powerful. "This composed wonder of your
frame," means that God took the human form, even 500 years ago. So,
Shakespeare is saying that he is not the only Master, who has ever
lived. It indicates that he is one Master out of a line of Masters,
which stretches back to Adam. "Whether we are mended," means are we
any better now? Have we given up sinning, since God has come in the
forms of so many Masters? He asks, "whether better they?" He says
who is the best, the contemporary humanity, or the humanity of
old? "Or whether revolution be the same," indicates a cycle of time
of ages. Civilization rise and fall. Sometimes they are better,
sometimes they are worse.

Shakespeare:
O, sure I am, the wits of former days
To subjects worse have given admiring praise.

MM:
Shakespeare says that Saints are kind-hearted, merciful, and
compassionate. He is sure that the "wits," or Masters of the past
had worse subjects than even his own disciples, but due to their
compassion, the Past Masters even praised them for their good
qualities.

Saints always focus on the fact that we have a soul, and it is
divine, of divine origin. They don't dwell on our karmic accounts.
Walt Whitman indicated that he came for the "roughs." Saints show
their mercy on the sinners. They know that regardless how dirty our
mind and soul have become, that they can be washed perfectly clean
with the soap of Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit. If only we can have
enough faith in them to attend to the meditation, lead the spiritual
life, then the Master will be happy to stand as a ransom for us,
regardless how many sinchit karmas are stored in the "record," as
Shakespeare called it. Once forgiven of sins, then the Master makes
us ONE with him, and consequently, ONE with the Supreme Being.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:34 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 65

LXV.
Since brass, nor stone, nor earth, nor boundless sea,
But sad mortality o'er-sways their power,
How with this rage shall beauty hold a plea,
Whose action is no stronger than a flower?
O, how shall summer's honey breath hold out
Against the wreckful siege of battering days,
When rocks impregnable are not so stout,
Nor gates of steel so strong, but Time decays?
O fearful meditation! where, alack,
Shall Time's best jewel from Time's chest lie hid?
Or what strong hand can hold his swift foot back?
Or who his spoil of beauty can forbid?
O, none, unless this miracle have might,
That in black ink my love may still shine bright.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the English Holy Man.

Shakespeare:
Since brass, nor stone, nor earth, nor boundless sea,
But sad mortality o'er-sways their power,
How with this rage shall beauty hold a plea,
Whose action is no stronger than a flower?

MM:
Very beautiful and descriptive. This is to teach us how helpless the
soul is here in Pinda. It is like a lost sheep. He says it is as
weak as a flower. Kal has such dominance over the soul here, if we
don't follow the Master and conquer him. He is calling the
soul, "beauty," here. "Rage," indicates a state of confusion, for
example, when a storm rages. This is the contrast seen by Saints,
when they compare this world to Sach Khand.

Shakespeare:
O, how shall summer's honey breath hold out
Against the wreckful siege of battering days,
When rocks impregnable are not so stout,
Nor gates of steel so strong, but Time decays?

MM:
Very expressive. Again, he is drawing a contrast between Pinda and
Sach Khand.

Shakespeare:
O fearful meditation! where, alack,
Shall Time's best jewel from Time's chest lie hid?
Or what strong hand can hold his swift foot back?
Or who his spoil of beauty can forbid?

MM:
Very beautiful. Very meaningful. This is about the appearance of
the Master, in MEDITATION. It is about the Radiant Form of the
Master. Even though his form appears in Kal's region, it is the way
out. By following the Master, we can escape from Kal's prison. He
(Shakespeare) is asking questions, and the answers are, in the Astral
Plane, no strong hand can keep the Disciple away from the Master, and
nobody can forbid the appearance of that "beauty," or the Radiant
Form of the Master.

Shakespeare:
O, none, unless this miracle have might,
That in black ink my love may still shine bright.

MM:
He answers himself, NONE. Shakespeare call Pinda, "black ink,"
because it is so dark, vis-a-vis, Sach Khand. So, if the disciple
can find the Master within, then his love will shine bright. That
love will take the disciple to the True Form of the Master, the
Supreme Being.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 01:39 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 67

LXVII.
Ah! wherefore with infection should he live,
And with his presence grace impiety,
That sin by him advantage should achieve
And lace itself with his society?
Why should false painting imitate his cheek
And steal dead seeing of his living hue?
Why should poor beauty indirectly seek
Roses of shadow, since his rose is true?
Why should he live, now Nature bankrupt is,
Beggar'd of blood to blush through lively veins?
For she hath no exchequer now but his,
And, proud of many, lives upon his gains.
O, him she stores, to show what wealth she had
In days long since, before these last so bad.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the teachings of the English Saint.

Shakespeare:
Ah! wherefore with infection should he live,
And with his presence grace impiety,
That sin by him advantage should achieve
And lace itself with his society?

MM:
Very beautiful and very pertinent questions, regarding why Saints
should shower their grace on the sinners? Frankly, he is asking why
he should remain in this pigsty of a world, when he is not properly
appreciated.

"Ah! wherefore with infection should he live," indicates the impurity
of this world. Shakespeare has called the sinners, "infection."

"And with his presence grace impiety," is again a reference to the
sinners of this world, who are impious.

"That sin by him advantage should achieve," means that he is offering
an opportunity to sinners to gain spiritual strength, or advantage.
Nobody really deserves the grace of the Saints. They are sent on a
mission of mercey. Even so, they are killed and tortured by us. So,
Shakespeare is raising some pertinent questions about the sinners of
this world.

Shakespeare:
Why should false painting imitate his cheek
And steal dead seeing of his living hue?
Why should poor beauty indirectly seek
Roses of shadow, since his rose is true?

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare has expressed this in his own unique
way. He says the sinners of this world are like "false paintings."
Why should he save them? He asks, why should he "steal dead?" So,
he refers to the sinners as being "spiritually dead." Why should he
steal them from Kal, and take them to Sach Khand? "Seeing of his
living hue," is what allows them to be taken to Sach Khand. The
Living Master is indispensable to realize God.

"Why should poor beauty indirectly seek roses of shadow, since his
rose is true?" indicates why should this whole scenario take place,
at all? "Poor beauty," refers to the seekers. They are poor in
spirit, as Christ said. "Roses of shadow," refers to the physical
form of the Master, which has been called counterfeit, also. The
Real Form of the Master is the Shabd, and ultimately God. So,
Shakespeare is asking why should all of this be done?

Shakespeare:
Why should he live, now Nature bankrupt is,
Beggar'd of blood to blush through lively veins?
For she hath no exchequer now but his,
And, proud of many, lives upon his gains.

MM:
Very beautiful, and thought-provoking. Why should he live? Why
should the Master have to be here with us, when we don't appreciate
him, and sometimes, even want to torture and kill him? "Now Nature
bankrupt is," means that without the Living Master, Nature has no way
to share spiritual wealth with the beggars, or poor in spirit. It is
just a way of explaining the NEED for the Living Master.

Nature has often been used synonymously with Shabd, Nam, or Holy
Spirit. In other words, Nature needs to express itself in a human
form, the Sat Guru.

"Beggar'd of blood to blush through lively veins?" means that without
the Master, the Shabd could not give us the Sant Mat theory. It is
essential for a human form to inspire us, to fill us with love and
devotion, as Maharaj Ji Charan Singh used to tell us.

"For she hath no exchequer now but his," indicates that Shakespeare
is the Living Master of the time. Without him, the spiritual work
would not get done. Nobody can say, why the Lord has marked certain
souls, and sent Shakespeare to collect them. The Lord has been doing
this with Saints for ages, and ages.

"And, proud of many, lives upon his gains." is very beautiful. It
means that the Supreme Being has come in the form of many Saints,
such as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Kabir, Nanak, etc., etc. The Lord
was pleased with their work. They came, they saw (the marked souls),
and they conquered (collected them). So, he says God is proud of the
work of the Past Saints, but now lives upon his gains. In other
words, the work is now being done by the Living Master of the time,
and that Master was Shakespeare (1564-1616). The Lord is most
merciful. Shakespeare appeared just one, or two, generations after
Kabir and Nanak. He was a contemporary of some Saints of those lines.
I believe he was a contemporary of Dadu Dayal, also.

Shakespeare:
O, him she stores, to show what wealth she had
In days long since, before these last so bad.

MM:
In other words, all the wealth of the Past Masters, whom I mentioned
above, is found in the Living Master. It applied then, it applies
today.

"Before these last so bad," means that Shakespeare is standing before
the "bad people," or the sinners. He is just another in the long
line of Saints, which is as old as time immemorial.

Spiritual salvation requires the grace of a Living Master.
Shakespeare has pointed out the reasons why this scenario continues,
time and time, again. Will humanity learn the lesson?

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 02:00 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 69

LXIX.
Those parts of thee that the world's eye doth view
Want nothing that the thought of hearts can mend;
All tongues, the voice of souls, give thee that due,
Uttering bare truth, even so as foes commend.
Thy outward thus with outward praise is crown'd;
But those same tongues that give thee so thine own
In other accents do this praise confound
By seeing farther than the eye hath shown.
They look into the beauty of thy mind,
And that, in guess, they measure by thy deeds;
Then, churls, their thoughts, although their eyes were kind,
To thy fair flower add the rank smell of weeds:
But why thy odour matcheth not thy show,
The solve is this, that thou dost common grow.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue to discuss the teachings of the English Saint.

Shakespeare:
Those parts of thee that the world's eye doth view
Want nothing that the thought of hearts can mend;
All tongues, the voice of souls, give thee that due,
Uttering bare truth, even so as foes commend.

MM:
Shakespeare says that Saints come from the Lord. They do their duty
here, by giving the Sant Mat theory to the sincere seekers. They do
it for nothing in return. It is all seva. They just want to please
the Supreme Being.

So, the Saints are the great philanthropists. Satan however is
always busily at work, tempting people to oppose the Saints. It
happens to one degree, or another, in the life of every Saint. The
opponents of the Saints, might be praising them to their faces, or to
their disciples, but planning to defame them behind their backs.

Shakespeare:
Thy outward thus with outward praise is crown'd;
But those same tongues that give thee so thine own
In other accents do this praise confound
By seeing farther than the eye hath shown.

MM:
Very beautiful. He says that Saints often receive praise on this
worldly level. There is nothing wrong with it, of course, but some
disciples are more loving, purer, worthier, and the open their inner
eye. Seeing the greatness of the True Master within, naturally,
their praise is different, based on a wider field of view, and
expanded consciousness. "Other accents," means that their praise is
on a different level of consciousness.

Shakespeare:
They look into the beauty of thy mind,
And that, in guess, they measure by thy deeds;
Then, churls, their thoughts, although their eyes were kind,
To thy fair flower add the rank smell of weeds:

MM:
Very definitive. He says some will try to evaluate the Master
outwardly, by his mind, by his deeds, guessing, and "although their
eyes were kind," still made the wrong decision about the Master.
This is a result of very bad karma. If we lack discretion, then it
is the fruits of bad karma.

We just need to try to have faith in the Master, if we can. That's
all we can do.

Shakespeare:
But why thy odour matcheth not thy show,
The solve is this, that thou dost common grow.

MM:
Shakespeare says, almost comically, that the Master is really
different from what he appears outwardly. He says if we lack that
much discretion, then we are "common." Common means that we are
covered with sins. Our mind is polluted, or infected, as Shakespeare
previously mentioned.

If we are "common," then we are in danger of eternal damnation, as
the Bible mentioned. The Lord can't keep giving us the human form,
unless we deserve it. If we reject the Saints, then we are really
rejecting the best use of this human form. What will God do with
such a soul? If we fall, due to lack of discretion, then we might
wander "aimlessy forever," as the Adi Granth has mentioned.

If we know about a Master, and reject him, then it is a sin against
the Holy Ghost. God has sent the Master to represent him. We should
be grateful for the Master. What happens then, if we reject the
Master, depends on God's will.

Michael

phildee3

05-05-2010, 02:42 PM

Monkyies -
You don't imagine that any of us are actually reading all of this do you?

newworldengineer

05-05-2010, 03:47 PM

Monkyies -
You don't imagine that any of us are actually reading all of this do you?

lmao!! *falls into a boredom induced deep coma*

phildee3

05-05-2010, 04:02 PM

After much searching, I finally found a photo of Michael Martin for y'all:
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00228/shayler5_228704s.jpg

newworldengineer

05-05-2010, 04:51 PM

wow, you even get a flash of his pink panties... very classy... ;)

phildee3

05-05-2010, 04:55 PM

Michael -
If you are the Son of God, who is David Icke?
Can there be more than one at the same time, or is DI a fake?

newworldengineer

05-05-2010, 05:10 PM

Michael -
If you are the Son of God, who is David Icke?
Can there be more than one at the same time, or is DI a fake?

aren't we all sons and daughters of god unrealised? obviously some of us are realised.

infidelyork

05-05-2010, 05:11 PM

phildee3

05-05-2010, 05:28 PM

aren't we all sons and daughters of god unrealised?

There is only one logos.
I'm asking Michael if the logos can be in more than one person at a given time.

obviously some of us are realised.

Shouldn't that be, "some of us have realised"?

newworldengineer

05-05-2010, 05:28 PM

There is only one logos.
I'm asking Michael if the logos can be in more than one person at a given time.

Shouldn't that be, "some of us have realised"?

prolly ;)

monkyies

05-05-2010, 07:33 PM

There is only one logos.
I'm asking Michael if the logos can be in more than one person at a given time.

Shouldn't that be, "some of us have realised"?

Yes the Logos can be in more than one person at a given time. There are three Masters it is manifested in: Michael Martin Pir Zia and Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji. All three of them are actually ONE because their true form is the same i.e. the "logos," or at an even higher level, the Supreme Being, which is the source of the Logos.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 08:01 PM

Monkyies, please stop.
If you want a God, fine. If you want religion, fine. If it floats your boat to follow the teachings of a 'guru', then go ahead, may your boat float well.

But for fuck's sake stop murdering the literary genius of Shakespeare to further your cause. Have you ever studied English Literature? Apparently not I feel.

Has your 'guru' got anything to say other than to bastardise Shakespearian plays and sonnets? For fucks sake I hope so. Now, once again, STOP fucking up Shakespeare with these pathetic ramblings and go back to tugging on your 'masters' shirt tails.

I don't know why this bothers you so much. Maybe just skip over this thread? Nothing else I can do for you. Try arguing with Michael himself, on his site, and maybe things will get done.

Like I said earlier, I have faith in Michael's ability to interpret Shakespeare. I believe him to be the reincarnation of Shakespeare, even. So your allegations don't hold water for me. It's just your opinion.

The readers can decide for themselves, of course. There's always going to be some opposition with these things, but skeptics, like yourself, just bring a larger crowd, and that's good.

nectars

05-05-2010, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by monkyies
My friend, you really seem like sincerely seeking person. Then should be much more careful when giving your trust.

Not sure who your refering to here but the last post by myself and I think phildee3 were messing around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Normal man cannot understand the scriptures. They have not had the inner experience to understand them.

This is false on two counts. It presumes no one other than these gurus has has the realiztion to any degree, and also that there is such a thing as a "normal man" while simultaneously being a "distortion of truth" in that it refutes(or suggests) that "all men are born equal" is false.

Consciousness level, comprehension and understanding of the Truth and Reality differ yet the essence of man is identical in every instance.

-The essence is the same, but the Masters have realized the essence by meditation. Only they are competant to interpret the scriptures. You can choose, either their interpretation, or your own. It's all up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
If using example from the last page one can be left with the notion that John is greater than Jesus (if his radiant form is initiating him) even though Jesus himself says that He (Jesus, least - later born) is greater. When Jesus says that John is the greatest man born from woman he means John attained the highest state of mortal consciousness. But Christ is son of god and born of the divine and therefore much greater. Also John testifies that he isn't worthy to even touch his shoes. How can he initiate him?

Christ is not a man. That which Jesus was he recognised in John even if John didn't fully comprehend it. Another pressumption is here also in that "John had reached the highest level of consciousness man". This is an opinion, not a fact in any way, shape or form. It also negates the possibility of Jesus(if an actual man) being incapable of being what he claims to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
I'm not going to comment on the other thoughts you seems to be learned person and could do it for yourself. Just know that trust in the wrong person could be destructive. That's why Jesus say that he (Christ the only true/sat guru) is the good shepherd and there will come ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that come to steal and kill.

He actually infered that the only true guru was the Father approached through Christ. The parable of the good sheperd doesn't refer to physical beings, assuming such is what got religion into the mess its in in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Okay. It seems that you have more faith in something else, rather than a Living Master. I'd also advise you to be careful with trusting past masters. Sant Mat has a lot of information on that, you can look it up. All Masters have had their own Master. It is a succession. A lineage. Some lines end, some keep going, and some begin.

If every Master of all time has needed a living Master, then we will too. Let's be a little humble here. You may not have faith in Michael Martin, okay. But I can tell you as fact that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas lineage of Gurus is the highest of the high. Michael Martin was initiated by the predecessor of the current RSSB Guru, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji (1916–1990).

I place my trust only in the Father and the Christ, are you suggesting that this is a lesser place to trust in than a human being?

-Definately. To interpret spirituality correctly, we need a living Master. The living Masters interpret that we need a living Master. You think that by believing in a past Master (Christ) you can get salvation. No, this is a trick of the negative power.

You can call the Masters just normal men if you'd like. But they are equal to what Christ was when he was here in the flesh. You need a living Master or you will not realize the Father.

Not all "masters" have had masters either, thats just nonsense.

-They all did.

The underlined part; how exactly do you know this for a fact? Is it not true to say that this is just another opinion of yours based on your past experiences with other teachings?

-I know this because I am humble. I accept that there are people who are superior to me. I find the Masters to be superior to me in knowledge. They are teachers, and I won't ignore them. It would be like someone ignoring Christ if he were here now. Many DID ignore him when he was here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
So let's try to understand who these Masters really are claiming to be. We cannot and should not instantly disagree with them. We absolutely positively HAVE to find and search for a living Sat Guru.

This is the thing, "yes" we can, otherwise we're placing trust in something we cant be sure should have it.

-It's called faith. Find a Sat Guru, have faith in him, and follow his instructions implicitely.

It may not be the most productive thing to do, but then again, trusting in someone without proving their information to ourselves experientially could be deadly.

-You get the proof from meditation. You meditate under the guidance of your Master, then you get the proof from within.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Whether you choose MM or Pir Zia or Gurinder Singh. Even if it is none of those. Your life would not be wasted if you spent the whole time looking for a living Master.

So people should look for a guru instead of going directly to the Big cheese(God)?

-You will never ever realize God without a Guru. It is impossible. Sorry to be repetitive, but it's spirituality 101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
You need that to realize the Father. It's indispensable.

Agreed, but thats not dictated by any guru. They can point the way, but you have to take it and know the requirements otherwise its not going to happen.

-You cannot do it alone. You cannot realize God by reading and doing it yourself. You need a living Master, period. You will get nowhere with arrogance and ego. You need God as man to reach God. This is a simple fact. You may reach lower manifestations of God without a Master, but even that is harder, much harder. And to reach the higher levels, you need a Master for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
It's better without guru than with such wolf.

Agreed, though most dont know the warning signs to look for.

-Without a Master you will not make it to God. There are wolves but then there are also True Masters.

As the level of our own consciousness grows the spiritual traps become much more diverse and devious in that they move from the satanic(physical/material) to the luciferic Distortions of Truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
-I think that we should not think this way, no. We leave it up to God, yes. God is the one who takes us from the wolf to the True Master. God WILL guide us to the true living Master. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

If we are sincere, then God will bring us to Him. We need to find a Living Son of God. We cannot settle for past Masters. At all cost, do not settle for nothing.

Your opinion again.

-This is not my opinion this is the coviction of Masters since time immemorial. Go ask them, not me. Go to the site I posted and talk to Michael Martin yourself. I'm nothing, really. I'm just parroting what the Masters have said.

Any earnest seeker will either be lead to the correct teaching for their growth or be given revelation(realization) of whatever is needed. This is not dependant on a guru.

-I'm talking about sincere seekers of Truth who are destined to realize the Supreme Being. They WILL be directed to the living Master by God.

If you wat to see thee(not "a") Son of the One True Living God then look around you.

-Christ was talking to a certain people of a certain time period. You can interpret it your way, or the way of the Masters. The readers can have faith in you, or the Masters. The Masters say that there have been many Sons of God throughout the ages. To ignore this fact is to bar yourself from spiritual progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
I cannot stress more the importance of the True living Master. They ARE out there. Have faith. I've mentioned three of them. If you can't have faith in Michael Martin, that may be understandable. He is harder to have faith in.

But the other two Gurus I've mentioned have large organizations, and a rich lineage going back a long time. Pir Zia's lineage goes back 800 years.

I can tell you for fact that Pir Zia and Gurinder Singh are the Highest God in human form.

Again stating facts that are no more than opinion. Lineage means nothing outside of the East and being from the East is no prerequisite to Liberation/Self Realization.

-You can form your own opinions. If you want to go at it alone, without a living Master, that's your prerogative. Others are more careful than that. They know that God sends the Saviors for us to follow. If you think that you are greater than the three Masters I've recommended, that's your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Do you doubt that god is fully capable to show you the secret room, open your ears for the holy sound, satisfy your soul with his golden light grace if you humbly ask and this is most important thing for you?

No, which is why I trust "Him" and not some Guru.

-It is your choice to call them just "some Guru." Not everyone lacks faith this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
-I am not. But I know that he has his own way. There is also a negative power called Satan that has the duty to tempt souls to stay here. He will try to keep the souls as far from the Sat Guru as possible. But when it comes down to it, God's own method is for us to meet the living Sat Guru and learn the instructions from him.

This is no small thing, we need a living master, period. We will get lost on the inner journey if we go at it alone. We want to go to the HIGHEST level within, not just some lower mental planes or anything like that.

And again a personal opinion. "Satan" aka "ego" has closer access to the Self than and guru can give you.

-Satan is the ruler of the three worlds i.e. the physical astral and causal. The Sat Guru has access to the Supreme Being i.e. 8th stage.

It's part of Self as is everything else and serves its purpose well. This is where the difference between apparent "free will" and "free choice of identification comes in".

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
He don't need the help of his messengers for that, even though they can strengthen people's faith showing the good example.

Indeed, though this contradicts the claim of needing a guru.

-You are mocking God sending his Saviors on earth for us to follow. He sends them here as a sacrifice for man. The Sat Gurus don't just "strengthen people's faith showing the good example," they do much more than you can imagine. Let's be more open minded have some more humility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
But if we are not accompanied by a living Master, we will not realize God in this life, or the next.

Nonsense. It can very much influence it by being in proximity to the energy field of a teacher or Truth, but its not a fact as far as Spiritual Truth goes.

-No it is a fact. You need a living Master who has realized the Supreme Being to realize Him for yourself. This is not just my opinion it's the conviction of all Masters since the beginning of creation. You can form your own opinions and ignore them, if that's your prerogative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkyies
Just suggesting to open your eyes and ears more may be you can spot something finer.

-What is "finer" would be the radiant form of your living Master.

You really need to examine what you've bought into. I hope for your sake that the contradictions and suggestive yet subtle dependency being created in you is down to yourself and not the gurus your refering to.

-I've examined Sant Mat a lot more than you have. You seem to put the cart before the hourse i.e. jump the gun on this. You are jumping to conclusions without even giving it a chance. You have not even joined Michael Martin's groups and asked HIM questions. If you continue to ask me questions you won't get the best answers possible. I highly recommend you ask him questions.

Anyway all the best.

-I hope you realize that I'm just trying to help. I'm putting out there the tried and proven path of the Masters.

I would really appreciate it if you started to ask Michael these questions and comments, and not me. I gave the link earlier, and here it is again:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelmartinwesternsatguru/

He will do much more justice to what I'm trying to say. He'll make things much more clear than what I can do.

I'll spend more time with this later as I have other things to do, but I will tell you this; you speak of "spirituality 101"? Perhaps you should take the course because from here your looking extremely naive.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 08:02 PM

I'll spend more time with this later as I have other things to do, but I will tell you this; you speak of "spirituality 101"? Perhaps you should take the course because from here your looking extremely naive.

You can say what you want. There will be no way you can prove me wrong, although. Post your own opinions, but they are just that.

The readers can decide for themselves who to believe. You or the Masters.

monkyies

05-05-2010, 08:48 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 75

LXXV.
So are you to my thoughts as food to life,
Or as sweet-season'd showers are to the ground;
And for the peace of you I hold such strife
As 'twixt a miser and his wealth is found;
Now proud as an enjoyer and anon
Doubting the filching age will steal his treasure,
Now counting best to be with you alone,
Then better'd that the world may see my pleasure;
Sometime all full with feasting on your sight
And by and by clean starved for a look;
Possessing or pursuing no delight,
Save what is had or must from you be took.
Thus do I pine and surfeit day by day,
Or gluttoning on all, or all away.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the English Param Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
So are you to my thoughts as food to life,
Or as sweet-season'd showers are to the ground;
And for the peace of you I hold such strife
As 'twixt a miser and his wealth is found;

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare is expressing the high degree of his
love for his disciples. Only a Master would be capable of such
love. Masters are capable of a perfect love. If only we could
realize that!

Shakespeare:
Now proud as an enjoyer and anon
Doubting the filching age will steal his treasure,
Now counting best to be with you alone,
Then better'd that the world may see my pleasure;

MM:
Very beautiful again. Shakespeare is expressing the intimacy of his
love for his disciples. Each disciple has the Radiant Form of
Shakespeare within him. Each will have his own individual experience
of Shakespeare's love. When Shakespeare has cleaned their souls,
they will all be taken HOME.

He indicates that neither death, nor age, will separate HIM from HIS
DISCIPLES. His relationship with them will be very private, and
individual.

Shakespeare:
Sometime all full with feasting on your sight
And by and by clean starved for a look;
Possessing or pursuing no delight,
Save what is had or must from you be took.

MM:
Again, he expresses how concerned he is about his disciple's
welfare. He wants to impress them, so that they will continue their
meditation. Saints are sent for this very purpose, to save the souls
of their disciples, and that is why they are so one-pointed with
regards to their duty.

Shakespeare:
Thus do I pine and surfeit day by day,
Or gluttoning on all, or all away.

MM:
Very beautiful and truthful. This gives us an idea how much a True
Master loves his disciples. It is the highest love on earth. "Or
gluttoning on all, or all away," means that he will glutton on those
who have been able to reach his Radiant Form, but those who haven't
been able to reach that level, he will not be able to interact with
them on the Astral Plane.

He is indicating that it is the duty of the disciple to come up to
the third eye center and meet the Radiant Form of the Master.

Michael

monkyies

05-05-2010, 09:39 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 81

LXXXI.
Or I shall live your epitaph to make,
Or you survive when I in earth am rotten;
From hence your memory death cannot take,
Although in me each part will be forgotten.
Your name from hence immortal life shall have,
Though I, once gone, to all the world must die:
The earth can yield me but a common grave,
When you entombed in men's eyes shall lie.
Your monument shall be my gentle verse,
Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse
When all the breathers of this world are dead;
You still shall live--such virtue hath my pen--
Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the English Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
Or I shall live your epitaph to make,
Or you survive when I in earth am rotten;
From hence your memory death cannot take,
Although in me each part will be forgotten.

MM:
He says he has planted his Radiant Form within his disciples. They
will not be able to forget him due to death. He will meet them at
the time of death. His body will die and be forgotten. So, he is
saying that although he will die physically, the Radiant Form will
still be with the disciple. The Master will guide the disciples with
the Form to the Supreme Being.

Shakespeare:
Your name from hence immortal life shall have,
Though I, once gone, to all the world must die:
The earth can yield me but a common grave,
When you entombed in men's eyes shall lie.

MM:
He says the world will consider Shakespeare to be dead and gone, but
his Radiant Form will make his disciples immortal. So, the world
(men's eyes) will not be knowing the reality, that the Master, the
disciples, and the Supreme Being, have all become ONE.

Shakespeare:
Your monument shall be my gentle verse,
Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse
When all the breathers of this world are dead;

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare indicates that his seva, the inclusion
of the Sant Mat teachings in his writings, will be a MONUMENT, for
generations to come. He is talking about YOU and ME. He says that
coming generations will be striving for God-Realization, also.

Shakespeare:
You still shall live--such virtue hath my pen--
Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men.

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare indicates that his disciples will be
immortal. They will conquer death, Kal, mind, karmas, etc., by
virtue of the practice of Shabd Bhakti. Shakespeare says that he has
the virtue, or the qualifications to be the Sat Guru, to make them
immortal. This is similar to what Christ said, "I have been stamped
and sealed by the Father." He says he is qualified, and more
importantly, he is living and breathing with us, in the human form.

Michael

monkyies

06-05-2010, 09:25 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 85

LXXXV.
My tongue-tied Muse in manners holds her still,
While comments of your praise, richly compiled,
Reserve their character with golden quill
And precious phrase by all the Muses filed.
I think good thoughts whilst other write good words,
And like unletter'd clerk still cry 'Amen'
To every hymn that able spirit affords
In polish'd form of well-refined pen.
Hearing you praised, I say ''Tis so, 'tis true,'
And to the most of praise add something more;
But that is in my thought, whose love to you,
Though words come hindmost, holds his rank before.
Then others for the breath of words respect,
Me for my dumb thoughts, speaking in effect.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue with my commentary on the English Param Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
My tongue-tied Muse in manners holds her still,
While comments of your praise, richly compiled,
Reserve their character with golden quill
And precious phrase by all the Muses filed.

MM:
"Muse," is Shakespeare's meditation. Here, he indicates that he has
had lots of successful meditations, and apparently, he has written
down many of his experiences. He says he is tongue-tied to express
the beauty, and greatness, of the Lord, as all Saints say.
Shakespeare was like a brain-surgeon with words, so it indicates the
impossibility to express God in writings.

Shakespeare:
I think good thoughts whilst other write good words,
And like unletter'd clerk still cry 'Amen'
To every hymn that able spirit affords
In polish'd form of well-refined pen.

MM:
Very beautiful. He is sharing his personal feelings, which indicate
his humility, here. He says he thinks good thoughts, while others
write good words. He is centripetal, while others are centrifugal.
This is the difference between gurmukhs and manmukhs. Some give lip-
service to the teachings. Others actually put them into practice.

He calles himself, out of humility, "Like unletter'd clerk still
cry 'Amen,'" and this indicates that he is thinking about God, all
the while he is writing his works. Even though he is one with God,
he still carries True Humility, like an unletter'd clerk. Christ
said, "The meek shall inherit the earth." Shakespeare shows his
humility, his meekness, here.

Shakespeare:
Hearing you praised, I say ''Tis so, 'tis true,'
And to the most of praise add something more;
But that is in my thought, whose love to you,
Though words come hindmost, holds his rank before.

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare holds the Lord before ALL. He holds the
Lord before his own ego. He agrees with all praise of the Lord,
because he includes all praise, and is even greater than the greatest
praises found in this world. Shakespeare even adds more praise to
the praises of previous Saints. So, it is out of Shakespeare's love
for God, that we have been given the benefit of all his incomparable
works, written under the influence of God's love.

We tend to put the words of Great Writers first. That is why
Shakespeare is known as a Great Writer, rather than as a Great
Bhakta, or Great Lover of God. Here, Shakespeare tells us that his
words "come hindmost," or behind is Bhakti. He is confirming, that
he was a Great Lover, i.e. Saint, and not just a Great Writer, or a
Great Poet.

Shakespeare:
Then others for the breath of words respect,
Me for my dumb thoughts, speaking in effect.

MM:
He says others will have respect only for his words. Shakespeare
again, out of humility, indicates that his dumb thoughts are more
important than his words, but he does put his thoughts on paper, in
his writings. He is telling us exactly what is happening. He thinks
about how Great God is, about the spiritual planes of consciousness,
etc., then he speaks, in effect. So, the grace is coming from God,
to Shakespeare, then to his writings. He indicates that his thoughts
are "dumb," because he is tongue-tied with no ability to accurately
define God. Nobody can do that.

This happens with many Saints. Hopefully, we can read their
writings, feel the inspiration, and seek a True Master, to take us
HOME.

Michael

monkyies

06-05-2010, 09:30 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 87

LXXXVII.
Farewell! thou art too dear for my possessing,
And like enough thou know'st thy estimate:
The charter of thy worth gives thee releasing;
My bonds in thee are all determinate.
For how do I hold thee but by thy granting?
And for that riches where is my deserving?
The cause of this fair gift in me is wanting,
And so my patent back again is swerving.
Thyself thou gavest, thy own worth then not knowing,
Or me, to whom thou gavest it, else mistaking;
So thy great gift, upon misprision growing,
Comes home again, on better judgment making.
Thus have I had thee, as a dream doth flatter,
In sleep a king, but waking no such matter.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my discussion of the English Param Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
Farewell! thou art too dear for my possessing,
And like enough thou know'st thy estimate:
The charter of thy worth gives thee releasing;
My bonds in thee are all determinate.

MM:
Masters come, and go, from the highest region to the lowest,
according to God's will. It is all determinate, according to God's
will, or God's mercy.

Shakespeare:
For how do I hold thee but by thy granting?
And for that riches where is my deserving?
The cause of this fair gift in me is wanting,
And so my patent back again is swerving.

MM:
Very beautiful. We can't hold the Supreme Being, unless her permits
it, or GRANTS it. Nobody deserves his riches. Shakespeare thinks,
out of humility, that he doesn't deserve his riches (of God). He
says that he is always turning (swerving) to God, in order to become
more purified, more worthy of God.

Shakespeare:
Thyself thou gavest, thy own worth then not knowing,
Or me, to whom thou gavest it, else mistaking;
So thy great gift, upon misprision growing,
Comes home again, on better judgment making.

MM:
God has given Shakespeare himself, whether Shakespeare deserves it,
or not. Shakespeare acts like it was a mistake that he got
initiated, realized God, etc... It is an example of his incomparable
humility. He says, after initiation, he developed spiritually,
reached his True Home, and now he has better judgment, since he is
God in human form.

Shakespeare:
Thus have I had thee, as a dream doth flatter,
In sleep a king, but waking no such matter.

MM:
Beautiful. He says when he is in Sach Khand, he feels that love
(flatter), but when he returns to the body (waking), he feels the
loss of that bliss. Such is the sacrifice that the Saints make for
us.

Michael

monkyies

06-05-2010, 09:40 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 91

XCI.
Some glory in their birth, some in their skill,
Some in their wealth, some in their bodies' force,
Some in their garments, though new-fangled ill,
Some in their hawks and hounds, some in their horse;
And every humour hath his adjunct pleasure,
Wherein it finds a joy above the rest:
But these particulars are not my measure;
All these I better in one general best.
Thy love is better than high birth to me,
Richer than wealth, prouder than garments' cost,
Of more delight than hawks or horses be;
And having thee, of all men's pride I boast:
Wretched in this alone, that thou mayst take
All this away and me most wretched make.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the English Param Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
Some glory in their birth, some in their skill,
Some in their wealth, some in their bodies' force,
Some in their garments, though new-fangled ill,
Some in their hawks and hounds, some in their horse;

MM:
Shakespeare is discussing TWO of the five perversions of mind, GREED
and ATTACHMENT.

Shakespeare:
And every humour hath his adjunct pleasure,
Wherein it finds a joy above the rest:
But these particulars are not my measure;
All these I better in one general best.

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare BETTERS all the wordly pleasures. How
does he do that? He takes his soul to Sach Khand.

Shakespeare:
Thy love is better than high birth to me,
Richer than wealth, prouder than garments' cost,
Of more delight than hawks or horses be;
And having thee, of all men's pride I boast:

MM:
Very beautiful. Shakespeare has the Supreme Being, Anami Purush. He
has access to him. He is ONE with him. Shakespeare has all that
anyone could possibly want, with regards to spiritual wealth.

Shakespeare:
Wretched in this alone, that thou mayst take
All this away and me most wretched make.

MM:
Very beautiful. He indicates that he is TOTALLY DETACHED (wretched
in this alone). Nothing else could make him wretched, except the
withdrawal of the Lord's grace.

I think we should read carefully, and LEARN. "That thou mayst take
all this away," indicates that we should always please the Lord.
What he has given, he might take away. We should try to invoke his
grace, not his WRATH. Shakespeare is telling it exactly the way it
is. It will behoove us to conduct our lives, to neither offend the
Sat Gurus, nor offend the Father. We should always have a fear of
offending him, and Shakespeare has corroborated this truth, here.

Michael

monkyies

06-05-2010, 09:50 AM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 95

XCV.
How sweet and lovely dost thou make the shame
Which, like a canker in the fragrant rose,
Doth spot the beauty of thy budding name!
O, in what sweets dost thou thy sins enclose!
That tongue that tells the story of thy days,
Making lascivious comments on thy sport,
Cannot dispraise but in a kind of praise;
Naming thy name blesses an ill report.
O, what a mansion have those vices got
Which for their habitation chose out thee,
Where beauty's veil doth cover every blot,
And all things turn to fair that eyes can see!
Take heed, dear heart, of this large privilege;
The hardest knife ill-used doth lose his edge.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the English Param Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
How sweet and lovely dost thou make the shame
Which, like a canker in the fragrant rose,
Doth spot the beauty of thy budding name!
O, in what sweets dost thou thy sins enclose!

MM:
Very beautiful. Our bodies are a result of sins. Within our bodies,
resides the Supreme Being. Pure Sant Mat teachings.

Shakespeare:
That tongue that tells the story of thy days,
Making lascivious comments on thy sport,
Cannot dispraise but in a kind of praise;
Naming thy name blesses an ill report.

MM:
Very beautiful. If we repent and follow the Living Master of the
time, then we will be practicing Simran, Dhyan, and Dhun. In other
words we will be doing the meditation. That will bless us,
regardless how many sins we have to our credit (or debit), over
numerous past lives. So, in conclusion, he is recommeding Sat Guru
Bhakti, and Shabd Bhakti.

Shakespeare:
O, what a mansion have those vices got
Which for their habitation chose out thee,
Where beauty's veil doth cover every blot,
And all things turn to fair that eyes can see!

MM:
Very beautiful. He says sins have taken the home of the mansion,
i.e. the human body. The Bible says, "The human body is the temple
of God." He says, even having a sinful body, however, the Supreme
Being is still found residing within it. So, he recommends to open
our spiritual eyes, with the help of the Master, naturally, then we
will see that fair beauty.

Shakespeare:
Take heed, dear heart, of this large privilege;
The hardest knife ill-used doth lose his edge.

MM:
Very beautiful, again. He is using the knife to represent the mind,
in this analogy. If we ill-use it, then it will lose its sharpness,
or concentration. We need to be concentrated to pass through the eye
of the needle, as Christ mentioned.

This theme can be carried forward. He has not done it, I will. We
can waste the mind, even to the extent of falling into lower species,
so we should not waste this human opportunity. He says, "Take
heed." That is what we should do "Heed," the Living Master of the
time, and make the most of this privilege.

Michael

monkyies

06-05-2010, 02:33 PM

Sonnets of William Shakespeare
Sonnet 97

XCVII.
How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen!
What old December's bareness every where!
And yet this time removed was summer's time,
The teeming autumn, big with rich increase,
Bearing the wanton burden of the prime,
Like widow'd wombs after their lords' decease:
Yet this abundant issue seem'd to me
But hope of orphans and unfather'd fruit;
For summer and his pleasures wait on thee,
And, thou away, the very birds are mute;
Or, if they sing, 'tis with so dull a cheer
That leaves look pale, dreading the winter's near.

EOQ --- MM:
I'll continue my commentary on the English Param Sant Sat Guru.

Shakespeare:
How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen!
What old December's bareness every where!

MM:
He says that living in this world, the physical plane, is like in
Winter, when all life seems pretty much dormant. Saints tell us that
this world in not our True Home.

Shakespeare:
And yet this time removed was summer's time,
The teeming autumn, big with rich increase,
Bearing the wanton burden of the prime,
Like widow'd wombs after their lords' decease:

MM:
Very beautiful. He says that this world (winter) is really like
blissful (summer), because he has been able to maintain his spiritual
access to God. In other words, his spiritual meditation gives him
the strength, happiness, etc., to carry on in this world. The "rich
increase," means to lay up for yourself treasure in heaven, of
course, by practicing Sat Guru Bhakti, and Shabd Bhakti.

He says the Sat Guru is like a pregnant widow, who will have a baby,
even though the Father is deceased. So, the Sat Guru carries the
burden of the Supreme Being (prime). The Sat Guru does the work of
the Supreme Being. He is like the good shepherd, who collect and
cares for the sheep (disciples).

Shakespeare:
Yet this abundant issue seem'd to me
But hope of orphans and unfather'd fruit;
For summer and his pleasures wait on thee,
And, thou away, the very birds are mute;

MM:
Sad, but beautifully explained. He says that the human beings of the
world are like orphans and bastards, because they are separated from
the spiritual Father, the Supreme Being. "For summer and his
pleasures wait on thee," means Sach Khand, and all the pure souls,
who are worshipping the Sat Purush, but that is at a very high level,
beyond the reach of all the poor souls on earth.

"And, thou away, the very birds are mute." This means that no soul
can be happy in this world, as it is separated from its Father,
Mother, Lover, True Home, whatever you want to call the Supreme Being.

Shakespeare:
Or, if they sing, 'tis with so dull a cheer
That leaves look pale, dreading the winter's near.

MM:
So, we get fleeting moments of happiness in this world, but they are
DULL, vis-a-vis, the happiness, bliss, and ecstasy, which we find in
our True Home. In this world, subconsciously, we know that we have
never remained happy, and we might not ever. That is the
subconscious feeling, which we might have. Some feel it more, some
less, depending on sanskaras. Some have no desire to return home, at
all. Without the Master, the soul will end up in chaurasi, the lower
species. That is the "dread," which could face the soul, just as
leaves will wither and die, in winter, so the soul can lose the human
form.

Michael