Necromancy and Reincarnation are Biblical Teaching

[morphal]

Anyone care to prove me wrong on this? Ok, I'll get the ball rolling. Was this not necromancy?

Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

There are an awful lot of teachings in the bible that go directly against what the church teachings. I'd love if this thread became a place where we could take a look at some of these things, and debate their meaning.

A good reference for some of the biblical versus the church teachings:

http://bibleufo.com

[morphal]

Here's another thing - copied from a post I put in another thread - Jesus himself taught us - you are gods...


Regarding the superJesus powers, it's kind of funny that mainstream Christians are led to believe that it's a lie of the devil that we shall be as gods.

In fact, this is what is taught in both the old and new testaments of the bible! lol...

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

We are created in the image of the gods, Elohim.

And though we are fallen, we are to transform into a being like this:

Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

According to ideas of resurrection/ascension.

With our 'super'human powers, we are supposed to be able to do amazing feats of telekinesis:

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

http://www.bibleufo.com/humanphenom.htm
http://www.bibleufo.com/anomhuman.htm

So yes, I think we all do have the potential to access these great supernatural powers within, but we are trapped and restricted by the world we live in... all it takes though, is a spark of faith. And perhaps - a quickening, such as what we seem to be going through today.

[dedicate]

It is a form of necromancy, and I could think of a couple other words to use.

The Buddhas have said, that within a drop of water there is more sentient life-form than people on earth. It is mind-boggleing at times to even think of it! All beings who ever lived and ever will live are beyond count.

but these excerps are Christian and are taken from The Bible. So those passages would have special meaning to a Christian, wouldn't they? Morphal.

To a UFO investigator those same passages would indicate extraterestrial origin of Religion. LOL> When I was very young, I sort of believed in interstellar visitors as an explantion for a lot of things, myself. Of course that was before, I found out I was one of those vistitors! Then the onion just kept peeling.

So the Universe is full.

[elirien]

Very good investigation. Although why call it Necromancy? This rather looks like accessing the subtle bodies then meager communicating with the "dead".

[extremecheese]

morphal, I think it's pretty much okay for Jesus to talk with Moses and Elias as Jesus is part of the Godhead - otherwise you'd have a pretty awkward situation in hevean where God would have to strategicaly ignore everyone who makes it there!
The John 10:32 quote, Jesus makes reference to Psalm 82, and is indeed a very interesting passage, instead of copying and pasting, I'll link a nice explanation for you (from a quick google search) :-
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/e-gods.html
The rest of what you have written can be summed up with the phrase "faith can move mountains."
...but remember, it's always a case of 'thy will be done' not your own will. There are indeed other entities that you can contact who will give you such powers regardless of God's will, but the price you will eventually pay will not be worth it ;)

[morphal]

Thanks for the responses... I don't consider myself a master of these mysterious teachings in the bible, but am interested in learning more about them and seeing what others have to add also.

dedicate said:
but these excerps are Christian and are taken from The Bible. So those passages would have special meaning to a Christian, wouldn't they? Morphal.


Well I guess we'll find out, right? ;) I believe in and love Jesus Christ as the Messiah - but had found myself deceived by Christianity which forbid things like the paranormal and caused a closed mind in many matters, as well as being subject to so many corruptions in the bible itself. However, I find that some of my beliefs which have been developing are actually biblically based and yet it would label me a New Ager, Pagan, or something else equally 'horrendous' and sinful in the mind of those who consider themselves to bible-based Xians, condemning me to eternal condemnation by the very saviour who I love and who loves me (and everyone). Very odd indeed.

elirien
Very good investigation. Although why call it Necromancy? This rather looks like accessing the subtle bodies then meager communicating with the "dead".

Good question. In this case, Elias and Moses would not be ordinary ghosts as they were both supposed to have ascended - so Jesus would have been communicating with the spirit bodies of beings who've made it to the end goal. And yet, to me, it's still necromancy, as it is communicating with a being who was once human and in human terms is dead, though living in other realms.

extremecheese
OK I'll look into the article and thanks. As far as Godhead communicating with his subjects, well I guess that's a matter of opinion. IMO Jesus was here to set an example of what is possible for us, we are to follow him. We all have the divine spark and the kingdom of heaven is within... if the temptation in the garden of Eden truly was 'ye shall be as gods' notice how Jesus says 'ye are gods' so there is a subtle but probably meaningful difference... Satan would have us believe we have to do something or become something else, while Jesus teaches us this is already within us, and that we need to learn to serve others and follow basic moral teachings, in part, to become more godlike or to overcome our fallen human nature.

I definitely agree with you - a big part of what Jesus taught was submission to his Father's will.

[morphal]

Here's another of those awful ;) new age/Eastern teachings in the bible - from the mouth of Jesus:

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Karma

[luciferhorus]

A rather strict reincarnationist view is rather incompatible with necromancy.

To a fundamentalist reincarnationist, necromancy (the evocation of ancestral spirts) would anyway be futile since they do not appear to believe in a spiritual world (ancestral realm); rather every soul is reborn to a new life.

Hindu reincarnation is much more confused however since apparently only the most enlightened souls escape the cycle of death and rebirth and pass over into the spiritual world, which of course begs the question of where the Hindu demonic spirits come from.

The Jesus of the Gospels, in common with the Pharisees, the Greeks, the Romans and Egyptians apparently believed in an afterflife, however modernists who have been influences by Hindu reincarnationist ideas are rather eager to reinterpret everything and anything to fit in with their reincarnationist beliefs.

Personally I do not believe in reincarnation and have rather tradition ancestral realm beliefs, however debating such matters is usually futile as it is impossible to prove or disprove either position.

Lux

[morphal]

Interesting points, Lux! I hadn't thought of it that way at all. I've seen some evidence of reincarnation in the bible - isn't that Biblegirl's thread? But the main thing I'm thinking of with Jesus' views on reincarnation is his assertion that John the Baptist is Elijah.

But - perhaps - both could exist - if we spend at times a hundred years or more in between lifetimes, sometimes longer, sometimes a lot shorter - we would be ancestors in the afterlife for a time, before possibly incarnating again. And those who've 'escaped' like Elijah - well - even they come back apparently. If Elijah was John the Baptist, and is also supposed to be a witness in the end times.

Anyway it's interesting to hear that you don't have reincarnation beliefs and have rather traditional ancestral realm beliefs, it's hard to come across anyone these days it seems who doesn't believe in reincarnation. Agreed that debate is futile and I respect your views and beliefs.

I hope we can get some more info from you on Necromancy. What did you think of the story of Jesus and Elijah/Moses in their ascended bodies? Would you call that necromancy? That's the passage the Catholics use to justify their contact with the saints, for example, and a passage that Protestants probably try not to notice.

[morphal]

The John 10:32 quote, Jesus makes reference to Psalm 82, and is indeed a very interesting passage, instead of copying and pasting, I'll link a nice explanation for you (from a quick google search) :-
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/e-gods.html


Yes, I've now read this. Typical church teaching, IMO, explaining away the overt statement of Jesus and in Psalm 82. Because according to the church, humans are original sinners and in no way to be comparable to gods (even though we're created in their image). I suggest in return you take a close look at the two links I posted in #2. What the bible teaches on this, versus what the church teaches.

Another passage the church doesn't teach:

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

And add in to this psalm 68:18
68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

But the chuch couldn't teach this and maintain their exclusive hold on the beliefs of 2 billion humans who are scared of going to hell and assume everyone else is going there... the good God loves everyone, and the gifts Christ received for us is for everyone!

[dedicate]

Good question. ..... to me, it's still necromancy, as it is communicating with a being who was once human and in human terms is dead, though living in other realms.



The Transfiguration is different from normal necromancy in that Jesus is not said to invoke the Two Prophets. necromancy: the belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world;a form of magic in which the practitioner seeks to summon "operative spirits" or "spirits of divination", for multiple reasons, from spiritual protection to wisdom; conjuring the spirits of the dead

During Christian prayer one may be heretical and ask for divine presence thru one of the fathers of the Church, any of the Saints, and even via the Angelic Beings. If one such being were to appear after this sort of invokation, it would be a gift granted more than from a demand that they do appear. But I'm just speculating. What was asked for during the Christian ceremony is guidance and wisdom in rememberance of those before, but no physical evidence of its existance.

Theurgy, I believe, is a better word for all forms of interaction with the spirit realm. That works just as well! An appearance of a deity would constitute darshan.. It could also be said the Transfiguration to be a literal account of the secret work of Thaumeturgy.

[luciferhorus]

Interesting points, Lux! I hadn't thought of it that way at all. I've seen some evidence of reincarnation in the bible - isn't that Biblegirl's thread? But the main thing I'm thinking of with Jesus' views on reincarnation is his assertion that John the Baptist is Elijah..

Well going back through history to try to understand what is meant by John the Baptist being the Elijah is a can of worms really, as we are speaking of tales written almost 2000 years ago by our extremely superstitious ancestors who believed in miracle men with supernatural powers (as stage magic and religion was as entwined in that era as it is in India today) and who usually turned their revered ancestors into supernatural mythical heroes and god men.

http://www.filebuzz.com/software_screenshot/full/abramelin_the_mage-64080.gif

However the idea of Jesus fasting for 40 days and summoning the Devil or communicating with Moses and Elijah is rather reminiscent of modern Abramelin magick; in the Abramelin rite, made famous by Crowley (often referred to as the Holy Guardian Angel) invocation, one summons the hosts of heaven and hell and seeks to command them; frankly I doubt if this can experienced or understood by anyone other than a person who has a rather heavy psychoactive habit (and the ancient history of religion / spirituality is also entwined with the legends of such sacred substances).

Frankly I have had numerous such experiences myself, but I should point out that these visions and spiritual experiences have always been accompanied by the use of powerful shamanic psychoactives. Probably a site which I should point you to is Infek's http://www.deathandhell.com. Infek is / was a shamanic Satanist with his own psychoactive garden and a drug habit who sought to commune with demons in order to gain power on earth.

Much of this presupposes that there is a spiritual world / ancestral world, or in David Icke's language "other dimensional beings" who are essentially the ancestral spirits of beings who once inhabited various parts of our universe prior to their deaths.

The modern revival of reincarnation beliefs is directly related to the British invasion of India and the modern revival of Hinduism. Our Pagan European, African and Middle Eastern ancestors generally held traditional animistic (that all things are imbued with a living spirit) and ancestral world (that all human souls continue to exist in an afterlife) beliefs; the Christian belief in "Heaven and Hell" entirely predates Christianity and is entwined in ancient Paganism.


But - perhaps - both could exist - if we spend at times a hundred years or more in between lifetimes, sometimes longer, sometimes a lot shorter - we would be ancestors in the afterlife for a time, before possibly incarnating again. And those who've 'escaped' like Elijah - well - even they come back apparently. If Elijah was John the Baptist, and is also supposed to be a witness in the end times.

John's Revelation in the Bible is written in a style which would be familiar to anyone who has had shamanic visions induced by powerful psychoactives; that is not to say that such visions are meaningless; on the contrary, in fact such visions often affect future generations who attempt to self fulfill such prophecies; however one should not take such shamanic visions too literally. There are of course numerous providential "actors" in the world who try to self fulfill those roles and claim to be the Messiah or anti-Messiah and so forth, either for malevolent or benevolent purposes, and it is certainly my view that such individuals often come to be at the centre of a spiritual storm, and draw the attention of the gods (ancestors), which of course is entirely a purpose of necromancy; one cannot seek to command the gods unless one first draws their attention and evokes (summons) them; however one of the side effects of this path can be a total loss of sanity and the immersion of the human soul in a world of delusion.


I hope we can get some more info from you on Necromancy. What did you think of the story of Jesus and Elijah/Moses in their ascended bodies? Would you call that necromancy? That's the passage the Catholics use to justify their contact with the saints, for example, and a passage that Protestants probably try not to notice.

Necromancy takes many forms but it is essentially the summoning of the gods (ancestors) for a particular purpose. If a Christian cries out to "Jesus" and asks him for a Mercedes Benz or for the "bombing of the Muslim world" then that is necromancy, as ridiculous as it sounds, however it is often the path to delusion, personal insanity and the insanity of war.

http://houseofecstasy.com/images/great_rite.jpg

One of the pieces of advice which Jesus gives in the Gospels, is "Do not pray in public in the streets and the Temples... but go into your room and close the door and pray to your creator in silence (I paraphrase)." That is not necromancy (the summoning of ancestral spirits); that is a silent prayer between yourself and your Creator (She allegedly knows your every thoughts anyway); however if for example you arrange your home as a Temple, perform magical rites and rituals (as most religions do) and summon the spirits of the dead, demons or angels, and make demands upon them, that is classical necromancy. Of couse if the gods (ancestors) have very little respect for the magickan one may expect all hell to break loose and the inevitability of insanity; necromancy itself is generally considered an act of total insanity by most of the psychological profession who generally do not believe in the existence of ancestral spirits and put everything down to "brain chemistry."

http://www.secondhand-souls-4occult.com/images/circle4.jpg

Lux.

[extremecheese]

I suggest in return you take a close look at the two links I posted in #2. What the bible teaches on this, versus what the church teaches.

:) sure thing morphal.
I'll browse through it today at some point, thanks.

[1977]

Reincarnation was believed by the Platonic philosophers, and the NT is heavily imbued with Platonism. But Christianity originally concerned itself with the regeneration of the soul into the "deathless solar body," as modern occultists have called it, and therefore did not explicitly mention that which was to be avoided at all cost. But it is nevertheless mentioned by early Fathers such as Clement and Origen.

John 1:12 ... But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ...

1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


There is absolutely no way that any learned Christian can defend the ridiculous notion that the deification of man is not one of the fundamental teachings of Christianity.

[morphal]

Great info - now it's my turn to say 'very good investigation'. I haven't had time to respond to the new info, but have much appreciated it and hope there's more to come ;)

[biblegirl]

great thread morphal :)

every time i read the bible now i seem to get more confirmation of reincarnation being a biblical reality

also i don't know if you've read the book of enoch, but there's some pretty amazing implications in there, including noah invoking enoch after he had been taken up to heaven :)

http://davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78912&highlight=reincarnation

[morphal]

great thread morphal :)

every time i read the bible now i seem to get more confirmation of reincarnation being a biblical reality

also i don't know if you've read the book of enoch, but there's some pretty amazing implications in there, including noah invoking enoch after he had been taken up to heaven :)

http://davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78912&highlight=reincarnation

Awesome, I'll be having a look. I'd read the book of Enoch a while back and am due to re-read it, I do have access to an online copy.

It's interesting about the transfigured bodies, especially in the Mark excerpt. Because it can tell us a bit about what we become when we are transfigured, and how we might appear to ourselves as we are now.

Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.


The disciples say - Master, should we build 3 temples, one for Elias, one for Moses, and one for you? In otherwords, as fallen humans, seeing humans in our transfigured state is the same thing to us as seeing the gods who humans are prone to worship. Another way of saying, when we are transfigured, as Moses and Elias were said to have been, we shall be the same as the gods. Now we see through a glass darkly - but then face to face.

Notice how Moses, Jesus and Elias are all in the transfigured bodies, and yet the Father in Heaven still appears as a disembodied voice. The transfigured bodies may well be what is to become of us as humans in the fifth dimension - our godlike reality and Heaven may be there - while the Father lives in yet another realm far beyond that.

[biblegirl]

Notice how Moses, Jesus and Elias are all in the transfigured bodies, and yet the Father in Heaven still appears as a disembodied voice. The transfigured bodies may well be what is to become of us as humans in the fifth dimension - our godlike reality and Heaven may be there - while the Father lives in yet another realm far beyond that.

that's an awesome point, wow

[morphal]

that's an awesome point, wow

Thanks - like you I'm finding more and more in the bible. Since thinking about the huge divide between church vs. biblical teachings, like Necromancy, Ascension and Reincarnation, I finally am beginning to understand why Jesus said "Depart from me, I never knew you," and "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not."

Many people who don't even believe in Jesus Christ are more ardent followers of his teachings and seekers of his wisdom, living and accessing more of his truths that are hidden in plain sight in the bible, than some of the most devoted Christians.

The church teachings actually forbid us from approaching Christ - from becoming transfigured and relating to him as gods - telling us instead that it's New Age blasphemy that we are gods.

[biblegirl]

Thanks - like you I'm finding more and more in the bible. Since thinking about the huge divide between church vs. biblical teachings, like Necromancy, Ascension and Reincarnation, I finally am beginning to understand why Jesus said "Depart from me, I never knew you," and "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not."

Many people who don't even believe in Jesus Christ are more ardent followers of his teachings and seekers of his wisdom, living and accessing more of his truths that are hidden in plain sight in the bible, than some of the most devoted Christians.

The church teachings actually forbid us from approaching Christ - from becoming transfigured and relating to him as gods - telling us instead that it's New Age blasphemy that we are gods.

100% agree!

it's encouraging and impressive to come across other people coming to the same conclusions :)

i'm so tired of the "new age" label applying to anything spiritual...i am completely convinced that if Christ came into the churches today and started talking he would be thrown out as a "new age blasphemer"....just like the religious leaders of the day called him demon possessed :rolleyes:

[morphal]

100% agree!

it's encouraging and impressive to come across other people coming to the same conclusions :)

i'm so tired of the "new age" label applying to anything spiritual...i am completely convinced that if Christ came into the churches today and started talking he would be thrown out as a "new age blasphemer"....just like the religious leaders of the day called him demon possessed :rolleyes:

right on! Yes it's definitely encouraging and impressive and to me is indicative of an awakening that's going on in the parts of our consciousness that are connected! In my thread I'm calling it the Adam Kadmon.

The anti-New Age and Pagan propaganda of the church is very powerful to keep believers from accessing the deeper teachings. What an agenda! Lies upon lies, just to keep us from seeing the truth.

Definitely - Jesus would be labelled a New Ager, you're right. And they always want to teach about and make accusations of demon possession, but they never talk about god possession ;) Christ and his Father were One. That may well be the highest and deepest level of possession possible.

[bendoon]

Definitely - Jesus would be labelled a New Ager,

I would think that Jesus would label both the Churches and the new agers as devil worshippers.

[elirien]

right on! Yes it's definitely encouraging and impressive and to me is indicative of an awakening that's going on in the parts of our consciousness that are connected! In my thread I'm calling it the Adam Kadmon.

The anti-New Age and Pagan propaganda of the church is very powerful to keep believers from accessing the deeper teachings. What an agenda! Lies upon lies, just to keep us from seeing the truth.

Definitely - Jesus would be labeled a New Ager, you're right. And they always want to teach about and make accusations of demon possession, but they never talk about god possession ;) Christ and his Father were One. That may well be the highest and deepest level of possession possible.

Yes :D

Most of the New age propaganda as well as the anti New age propaganda is been orchestrated by Jesuits and the like. It is quite easy to understand. You have to believe in the new age to be against it. For there to be a new age there must be an old age. Neither are true. Universal truth is always the same and is here and now.

Those that believe that they are their vehicle try to attribute to that vehicle and other vehicles impossible attributes. Although the thing is that "without my father I can do nothing" and "I and my father are one". Guess what I here means? No-one is that "I" and "I" is no one. It is just a pointer for some vehicle of the one that has many vehicles.

"It has been said of those from old time that ye are gods". This is used as a selling point for a new age teaching. What paradox and beauty :D Does that mean that "I" am a God? No. It means there is no "I". Its just a concept created for the short term benefit of the vessel. It is animal consciousness. That what David Icke gathered as the reptilian brain. As above so below as they say or what is in man is in the universe. That reptilian concept is also manifested as beings not necessarily looking that way. These are all the beings that say "I" did this, "I" did that, "I" know this etc. don't knowing what that I is. It is the new ager against the anti new ager.

Think of telepathy. If one were a telepath how could one convey the thought "I" besides using the image of form? Would you convey the thought of being hungry as showing "your face" or a hamburger?

Anyways. This is transforming into a tirade :D

What inspiration. Bless you :D