How Should We Speak to Them about Islam?

[converger]

How Should We Speak to Them about Islam?




Muslims going to America and Europe are faced with a flood of questions about Islam. People have many ways of asking these question and different motivations for doing so, but their questions are essentially as follows:

Why does Islam permit polygamy?

Why is a woman counted as half a man in matters of inheritance and when she gives testimony?

Why does Islam “belittle” women?

Is Islam a religion of terror since it prescribes jihad?

Who should we believe: Sunnis or Shiites?

Questions like these are what occupy their minds when they think about Islam, since the Western media has actively maligned Islam as a religion of lust and blood and nothing else. When our Muslim youth goes to their countries, they often find such questions awkward and try to evade them.

They might say things like: Permission for polygamy is conditional upon justice between wives and justice between wives is impossible to achieve. Allah says: “You will not be able to be just between women even if you strive to do so.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 129] Whatever is conditional upon something impossible is impossible itself. Therefore, polygamy is forbidden in Islam.

In many cases, Muslims will come across a strange opinion on a matter and promote it simply because it is more conciliatory.

When I visited America, I found that many Muslims who did not have correct or sufficient Islamic knowledge suffered from such difficulties. They really did not know what to do.

I used to tell them the following: Why should we be on the defensive? Why don’t we adopt a more assertive attitude? If they confront us one question, we should respond with ten of our own. If they ask us about jihad, we should ask them about America’s openly aggressive policies in many parts of the world, not to mention all of their covert operations.

If they ask you about polygamy, ask them about the sexual promiscuity that is rife in their societies that has brought humiliation to so many women and allowed men to absolve themselves of their responsibilities towards them and towards their children?

If they ask you about inequalities in inheritance, ask them about the reality in their own country where a woman earns only 60% of what a man earns for doing the exact same job.

I do not mean that we should be evasive. However, it is not good for you to respond when you are in a state of weakness and difficulty where there is a danger that you might answer falsely and misrepresent Allah’s religion in order to appease someone else.

You can move on to a more advanced level of discourse and demonstrate that Islamic teachings are the solution to the problems that they are suffering from. For instance, according to some assessments, there are 119 women to every 100 men in the United States. In some states, the number is more like 160 women to every 100 men. Polygamy is the solution to the problems that ensue under such circumstances, since it requires some men to assume responsibility for more than one woman and to be as just as humanly possible in doing so.

We can stress how Islam teaches equality between all people. There is no preference for anyone over anyone else except by a person’s piety and virtue. This is the way to do away with the problem of racism that people in the West suffer from.

The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality.

There are a few points that I would like to emphasize:

1. Matters of Islamic law are established by the unambiguous texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah. No one, regardless of who he is, has the right to change, add, or subtract anything to placate anyone’s desires or fears. When someone who is calling others to Islam meddles with Allah’s ruling on a matter and misinforms people, he is doing a disservice to Islam as well as deceiving others. He has no right to meddle in matters of Islamic Law that are the jurisdiction of Allah alone.

2. Matters that fall within the scope of juristic discretion and allow for differences of opinion should be presented in a balanced and objective manner by the person who is calling others to Islam. He should take circumstances into consideration when doing so. He should not select the most severe and restrictive opinion on a matter and present it to the people as if it is Islam itself, especially when he is trying to endear Islam to the people’s hearts.

3. Our objective should be to convince others of the correctness of the Islamic ruling so that they will accept it. We must employ all of our knowledge and reasoning abilities in achieving this objective. We must provide all the relevant facts. We can employ to our advantage other aspects of knowledge that we find to be of benefit in convincing others of Islam, like the scientific miracles of the Qur’ân, statistical information, circumstances and experiences, and rational arguments. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is an integral part of conveying the truth to the people.

4. We must instill in the hearts of our young people complete and total confidence in every aspect of Islam, from the most general teachings of their faith to the most specific. We must dispel any sense of weakness or deficiency that they might possibly feel at the hands of some of those who dispute with them.

We do a disservice to Islam if we lead the people to believe that Islam is close to the life that they already living and that the Islamic approach to life is not much different than their own. This only makes the people feel that Islam is unnecessary for them and encourages them to turn away from it. They are, in fact, trying to escape from the hellish aspects of the lives that they are already leading. They need to be presented with an alternative.

When they ask about Islam or even about something else, they are looking for a way out. They are looking for something to rescue them. Therefore, we must present Islam to them with all of its uniqueness and show them clearly how it differs from their own life experiences. In this way, we encourage them to think about Islam.

We must present Islam to them in a logical manner with clear and insightful arguments. Our responsibility ends here. Indeed, this was the extent of the responsibility of Allah’s Messengers (peace be upon them). Allah says to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him):

“It is naught your duty but to convey the message.” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 48]

“It is your duty only to convey the message. It is upon Us to take account.” [Sûrah al-Ra`d: 40]

“So admonish them. You are but one who admonishes. You do not control their affairs.” [Sûrah al-Ghâshiyah: 21-22]

It is not necessary for us to fancy that the whole world will convert to Islam at our hands. However, we must be eager to guide them and we must seek to do so in every possible and permissible way. We should perfect our way of presenting Islam to them, taking into account the age, circumstances, and level of knowledge of those whom we are addressing. We must present to them the noble Islamic values of freedom, justice, and human dignity and prove to them that Islam is superior to everything that they already know.

Above and beyond all of this, we must conduct ourselves in the best, moth ethical manner and present our own lives as a practical example of moral virtue.

Unfortunately, many Muslims call people to Islam with their tongues while pushing them away from it with their ignoble, contradictory conduct and with their narrow-mindedness.

this article is not mine it is from islamway.com

[mightyoak]

this article is not mine it is from islamway.com
[/SIZE][/FONT]

biased towards islamic teachings then !

[converger]

biased towards islamic teachings then !


sure i am because i am muslim is that surpises you ?

[waylander]

How Should We Speak to Them about Islam?


Well let see, you could start with the following facts:

1. allah was a arab pagan moon god
2. moohamhed himself believed that he was whispered lies by an evil jinn. It was one of his wifes who convinced him it was an angel.
3. The koran is full of hate and bile.
4. muhamed was a pedophile. FACT.

Waylander:cool:

[mightyoak]

sure i am because i am muslim is that surpises you ?

nope that dont suprise me :p

[waylander]

sure i am because i am muslim is that surpises you ?

Are you also a pedophile ?

Or do you not follow that part of the prophets example.

Waylander:cool:

[converger]

waylander get out of my head and do not forget to close the door behind you the discussion with you all of you is entirely barren......

[waylander]

waylander get out of my head and do not forget to close the door behind you the discussion with you all of you is entirely barren......

The truth hurts sometimes.

Waylander:cool:

[mightyoak]

waylander get out of my head and do not forget to close the door behind you the discussion with you all of you is entirely barren......

YEP i agree :rolleyes: no converts here :D

[converger]

no it dosent hurt because it is false so you think you surmounted no you didnt you said i am pedophile hahahaha sure i am not what made you say that dude

[waylander]

no it dosent hurt because it is false so you think you surmounted no you didnt you said i am pedophile hahahaha sure i am not what made you say that dude

I never said any such think:confused:

Do all muslims only read what they want to see. That would explain a lot.


Waylander:cool:

[converger]

what i missed lol

[crying bee]

How Should We Speak to Them about Islam?




Muslims going to America and Europe are faced with a flood of questions about Islam. People have many ways of asking these question and different motivations for doing so, but their questions are essentially as follows:

Why does Islam permit polygamy?

Why is a woman counted as half a man in matters of inheritance and when she gives testimony?

Why does Islam “belittle” women?

Is Islam a religion of terror since it prescribes jihad?

Who should we believe: Sunnis or Shiites?

Questions like these are what occupy their minds when they think about Islam, since the Western media has actively maligned Islam as a religion of lust and blood and nothing else. When our Muslim youth goes to their countries, they often find such questions awkward and try to evade them.

They might say things like: Permission for polygamy is conditional upon justice between wives and justice between wives is impossible to achieve. Allah says: “You will not be able to be just between women even if you strive to do so.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 129] Whatever is conditional upon something impossible is impossible itself. Therefore, polygamy is forbidden in Islam.

In many cases, Muslims will come across a strange opinion on a matter and promote it simply because it is more conciliatory.

When I visited America, I found that many Muslims who did not have correct or sufficient Islamic knowledge suffered from such difficulties. They really did not know what to do.

I used to tell them the following: Why should we be on the defensive? Why don’t we adopt a more assertive attitude? If they confront us one question, we should respond with ten of our own. If they ask us about jihad, we should ask them about America’s openly aggressive policies in many parts of the world, not to mention all of their covert operations.

If they ask you about polygamy, ask them about the sexual promiscuity that is rife in their societies that has brought humiliation to so many women and allowed men to absolve themselves of their responsibilities towards them and towards their children?

If they ask you about inequalities in inheritance, ask them about the reality in their own country where a woman earns only 60% of what a man earns for doing the exact same job.

I do not mean that we should be evasive. However, it is not good for you to respond when you are in a state of weakness and difficulty where there is a danger that you might answer falsely and misrepresent Allah’s religion in order to appease someone else.

You can move on to a more advanced level of discourse and demonstrate that Islamic teachings are the solution to the problems that they are suffering from. For instance, according to some assessments, there are 119 women to every 100 men in the United States. In some states, the number is more like 160 women to every 100 men. Polygamy is the solution to the problems that ensue under such circumstances, since it requires some men to assume responsibility for more than one woman and to be as just as humanly possible in doing so.

We can stress how Islam teaches equality between all people. There is no preference for anyone over anyone else except by a person’s piety and virtue. This is the way to do away with the problem of racism that people in the West suffer from.

The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality.

There are a few points that I would like to emphasize:

1. Matters of Islamic law are established by the unambiguous texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah. No one, regardless of who he is, has the right to change, add, or subtract anything to placate anyone’s desires or fears. When someone who is calling others to Islam meddles with Allah’s ruling on a matter and misinforms people, he is doing a disservice to Islam as well as deceiving others. He has no right to meddle in matters of Islamic Law that are the jurisdiction of Allah alone.

2. Matters that fall within the scope of juristic discretion and allow for differences of opinion should be presented in a balanced and objective manner by the person who is calling others to Islam. He should take circumstances into consideration when doing so. He should not select the most severe and restrictive opinion on a matter and present it to the people as if it is Islam itself, especially when he is trying to endear Islam to the people’s hearts.

3. Our objective should be to convince others of the correctness of the Islamic ruling so that they will accept it. We must employ all of our knowledge and reasoning abilities in achieving this objective. We must provide all the relevant facts. We can employ to our advantage other aspects of knowledge that we find to be of benefit in convincing others of Islam, like the scientific miracles of the Qur’ân, statistical information, circumstances and experiences, and rational arguments. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is an integral part of conveying the truth to the people.

4. We must instill in the hearts of our young people complete and total confidence in every aspect of Islam, from the most general teachings of their faith to the most specific. We must dispel any sense of weakness or deficiency that they might possibly feel at the hands of some of those who dispute with them.

We do a disservice to Islam if we lead the people to believe that Islam is close to the life that they already living and that the Islamic approach to life is not much different than their own. This only makes the people feel that Islam is unnecessary for them and encourages them to turn away from it. They are, in fact, trying to escape from the hellish aspects of the lives that they are already leading. They need to be presented with an alternative.

When they ask about Islam or even about something else, they are looking for a way out. They are looking for something to rescue them. Therefore, we must present Islam to them with all of its uniqueness and show them clearly how it differs from their own life experiences. In this way, we encourage them to think about Islam.

We must present Islam to them in a logical manner with clear and insightful arguments. Our responsibility ends here. Indeed, this was the extent of the responsibility of Allah’s Messengers (peace be upon them). Allah says to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him):

“It is naught your duty but to convey the message.” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 48]

“It is your duty only to convey the message. It is upon Us to take account.” [Sûrah al-Ra`d: 40]

“So admonish them. You are but one who admonishes. You do not control their affairs.” [Sûrah al-Ghâshiyah: 21-22]

It is not necessary for us to fancy that the whole world will convert to Islam at our hands. However, we must be eager to guide them and we must seek to do so in every possible and permissible way. We should perfect our way of presenting Islam to them, taking into account the age, circumstances, and level of knowledge of those whom we are addressing. We must present to them the noble Islamic values of freedom, justice, and human dignity and prove to them that Islam is superior to everything that they already know.

Above and beyond all of this, we must conduct ourselves in the best, moth ethical manner and present our own lives as a practical example of moral virtue.

Unfortunately, many Muslims call people to Islam with their tongues while pushing them away from it with their ignoble, contradictory conduct and with their narrow-mindedness.

this article is not mine it is from islamway.com


Coverger - brilliant article. thank you so much for posting this. Its so true.

in peace and respect,

me

[zarah]

People who wish to revert will do so, people who dont..won't.

There are a handful of members here who have real dislike for Islam and blame it for everything, from immigration to western hegemony to obesity. Their opinion is so entrenched and their prejudice so deep that their opinion won't ever change..and that's fine.

All those who do know a little about Islam can do is try their best to be honest and truthful when imparting information.

[marc_o]

I'm not anti-Islamic, I often come to the defense of Muslims on here for what I see as bigotted and ill-informed comments.

However please, correct me if I'm wrong in saying this:

Mohammed (your prophet) is a man who must be emulated, as an example of how a perfect human being can live on earth.

But the guy had sex with children, and murdered people.

Is any of this incorrect?

[dragon fang]

I'm not anti-Islamic, I often come to the defense of Muslims on here for what I see as bigotted and ill-informed comments.

However please, correct me if I'm wrong in saying this:

Mohammed (your prophet) is a man who must be emulated, as an example of how a perfect human being can live on earth.

But the guy had sex with children, and murdered people.

Is any of this incorrect?

Read my post:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058680424#post1058680424

And why don't they look at the problems at the bible (http://www.answering-christianity.com/killer.htm) and try to find problems in Quran while there isn't any so they fake it?

And he only had children from his first wife Khadija which was a 40 years widow and he was 25, And other children would marry at their teen ages, And got one child from an other wife.
And child brides was very common with Jewish and Romans even with nobility, And the maximum age was between 40 and 60.
Look at this (http://www.answering-christianity.com/is_muhammad_true_prophet_3.htm#muhammad_and_aisha) .

[mightyoak]

There are a handful of members here who have real dislike for Islam and blame it for everything, from immigration to western hegemony to obesity. Their opinion is so entrenched and their prejudice so deep that their opinion won't ever change..and that's fine.

All those who do know a little about Islam can do is try their best to be honest and truthful when imparting information. [/COLOR]

I personally do not dislike islam or muslims, I DISLIKE the fact that SOME try tell people that it is a peaceful all endearing caring religion. When it isn't. In fact it was corrupt from its very origins.
Some are hoodwinked others are not so gullible
Btw Zarah you not used that little chestnut, off racist for a while. To throw the debate. or is prejudice the new refined word.

I REPEAT these very wise words ....

All those who do know a little about Islam can do is try their best to be honest and truthful when imparting information.

[zarah]

I'm not anti-Islamic, I often come to the defense of Muslims on here for what I see as bigotted and ill-informed comments.

However please, correct me if I'm wrong in saying this:

Mohammed (your prophet) is a man who must be emulated, as an example of how a perfect human being can live on earth.

But the guy had sex with children, and murdered people.

Is any of this incorrect?

The first part isn't based on any fact. Plus, people simply have to accept that 7th c ME, as it is now, wasn't made up of societies which had a defined adult, a defined child and an age of consent. Children were children until puberty, which the record shows was around 15 or so. At that point they were considered adults. Marriage was more of a consenting business arrangement in which relationships were based on what each could offer, so for example, Muhammed married Khadija, his first wife, when he was I think 19 (although I could be wrong) and she was in her 40's and widowed.


Muhammed live in accordance with the tribalistic traditions of the time. It's incomparable to today's society. Yes it was brutal, but so was England, France and other parts of what is now Europe, which was controlled by feudal kings. Stories of Muhammed's life didn't start to be written down until at least 100 years after his death, so I would imagine some have been embellished, but certainly historians agree that Muhammed's life, as it has been recorded seems pretty close to how people lived at the time.

[zarah]

I personally do not dislike islam or muslims, I DISLIKE the fact that SOME try tell people that it is a peaceful all endearing caring religion. When it isn't. In fact it was corrupt from its very origins.
Some are hoodwinked others are not so gullible
Btw Zarah you not used that little chestnut, off racist for a while. To throw the debate. or is prejudice the new refined word.

I REPEAT these very wise words ....

All those who do know a little about Islam can do is try their best to be honest and truthful when imparting information.

You have no idea about Islam and you certainly have little or no knowledge about its origins - your posts indicate that much. Why shouldn't a Muslim who believes his or her faith to be one of peace and love say what they think? Each time someone who has easily more knowledge about Islam than you explains something, you and your friends disregard their viewpoint, preferring instead to postthe guttersnipe crap you trawl Zionist websites on the internet for.

And would you mind awfully if I didn't believe that you don't 'dislike Muslims'? I can't be bothered to have a look at your post history, but anyone who cares to will easily find post after post of ignorant insult aimed at followers of Islam.


I don't like the term 'racist' and try my hardest not to use it, so to glibly insinuate that I accuse everyone who doesn't agree with me of being racist is as idiotic as the rest of your incoherent ramblings. However, it's my belief, based on the record of posts which you and your friends contribute to topics such as this, that you do hold a prejudice and I would also suggest that it finds its origins in the media conditioning all of us are subject to, but only some of us fail to recognise.

[waylander]

Aisha — 9 year-old bride

Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Sahih Muslim

Chapter 10: IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO GIVE THE HAND OF HIS DAUGHTER IN MARRIAGE EVEN WHEN SHE IS NOT FULLY GROWN UP.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. Book 8, Number 3309.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Book 8, Number 3310

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Book 8, Number 3311

Sunan Dawud

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. Book 41, Number 4915:

Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune. " She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Book 41, Number 4916:

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Book 41, Number 4917

As an older man of fifty-plus years, Muhammad married a mere child of six years old and co-habited with her when she was 9 years old. As quoted above, the most trusted collections of hadiths establish the authenticity of this oral tradition. But still, Western Muslims are embarrassed by these hadiths. Sometimes they use a Weak hadith defense to excuse Muhammad's child marriage.

At other times, they use an Arabic culture defense by claiming that no one has the right to judge Oriental culture by Occidental norms. Now, this is a strange defense to make, since Muslims frequently criticized Western culture as being morally decadent. If another culture cannot be morally evaluated, then other cultures must not be judged as morally decadent. But, this conclusion is not acceptable to Muslims, since they argue that an Islamic culture is the better culture. So, we must conclude that cultures may be evaluated morally, or that, someone is hypocritically judging others while not permitting themselves to be judged by the same standard.

However, if hypocrisy is not a good alternative, then it is concluded that cultures may be evaluated morally. In fact, it is permissible, and even desirable, to have moral discussions on cultural issues. Moral discussions on cultural issues occur in many different cultures.

So, the problem of Muhammad marrying a child cannot be defended on Eastern cultural grounds. The issue remains as to whether or not Muhammad acted rightly in marrying a six year old. Certainly, it is wrong according to the natural order of Allah's creation. In fact, many nations of the world list such behavior as a crime against nature. Thus, it must be concluded that Muhammad committed a grave moral sin against the moral order of Allah's creation. And, his behavior is a reprehensible example for others to follow. It is tragic to read news reports of old men marrying children in some Islamic countries, because they seek to follow the example of Muhammad who married a child. Muhammad had such an interest in fondling young girls, he criticized even the lawful marriage union of two grown adults.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17.

In the classic history of "The Life of Muhammad" (Sirat Rasul Allah) by Ibn Ishaq, there is an account in which Muhammad expressed a marital interest in a crawling baby. This event seems to have occurred around the time of the Battle of of Badr which would have made Muhammad approximately 55 years old. He had married Ayesha two years earlier, when he was 53 years of age.

(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...1

So, Muhammad's interest in young girls extended beyond Ai'sha ('Ayesha). Why would anyone think that Muhammad's sexual interest in babies be "the timeless expression of the Will of Allah?" How does such a prurient desire support Muhammad's claim to be a prophet of Allah? Such a desire by an old man is contrary to nature, and it is a perversion against the moral order of Allah's universe.

An example of one of the problems of child marriages: "Sierra Leone's silent sufferers. Most commonly the head of the foetus is too large to enter the birth canal, and presses the bladder against the bony side wall of the pelvis. Crushed in that way over a period of days, the tissue dies and a hole is created. From that moment the women are never free of the trickle of urine. Fatmata's experience was as typical as it was catastrophic. She was rejected by her husband, and by her family. Regarded as unclean - and by some as jinxed - she was driven out of her village. ...

They included 15-year-old Sia Foday who was married off by her family at the age of nine and was quickly pregnant. Sia - small for her age - was only 10 when she tried to give birth and ended up incontinent. Another of the women, Aminata Kanda, said she only survived because her children collected firewood to sell and helped her tend a small garden. "Life was really horrible for me. When I was in this sickness the urine was coming non-stop... the odour of the urine is horrible... that is why even my husband wouldn't allow me to stay in his house," she says."

Yet, according to Islam, Muhammad is the perfection of humanity and the prototype of the most wonderful human conduct. He married a nine year-old and leaves an enduring legacy for old Muslim men to fulfill their carnal desires contrary to natural law and to the life-long devastation of young girls.


Waylander:cool:

[zarah]

Aisha — 9 year-old bride

Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Aisha:
Waylander:cool:

Aren't you a clever copy paster? :)

Just to explain, because I see you're having trouble, please read try your absolute best to understand:

1400 years ago, society was structured much differently to how it is now. People lived in small to medium sized tribes and either lived a nomadic lifestyle, travelling about the place, or lived by oases and traded with other tribes who lived around them. It was an extremely violent time, although the historical record shows that tribes also becoming more cultured, perhaps because of a Greek or Byzantine influence. Pagonism was popular,as was Judaism and Christian sects which were named after their patriarch or teacher: The jacobites and so on.

Marriage in Muhammed's lifetime wasn't marriage as it is now. It wasn't a union based on love and living happily ever after. There was always a reason why people became married: perhaps to join tribes, to form alliances, to look after a wife who had been widowed and so on. Aisha was the daughter of Muhammed's friend, Abu Bakr, who also became the first caliph after the Prophet's death. It would have been a great honour for Muhammed, who by the time of the marriage was a very important and well-known man, to marry a daughter of Abu Bakr.

Simply because Muhammed and Aisha cohabited, is certainly no indication that their marriage was consummated, and often marriages weren't. They had no children, and as Muhammed died when Aisha was 19, if they had been in a sexual relationship, the chances are she would of fallen pregnant.

I'm truly sorry you don't have the capabilities to understand that life then wasn't as life is now. It makes everything a tad more difficult, because you judge Islam on your contemporary set of morals rather than in context. Perhaps that suits your purpose. :)

[waylander]

Aren't you a clever copy paster? :) :)

Thank you ! :):)

Aren't you a brainwashed sheep:(.

Waylander:cool:

[zarah]

Thank you ! :):)

Aren't you a brainwashed sheep:(.

Waylander:cool:

Was it too hard to address the points I made?

[waylander]

They had no children, and as Muhammed died when Aisha was 19, if they had been in a sexual relationship, the chances are she would of fallen pregnant.

Females who are abused at such a young age, often are so damaged by the violation that, in maturity they cannot conceive.

That you pointing out this additional evidence, that the prophet was a pedophile.

Waylander:cool:

[waylander]

Was it too hard to address the points I made?

Unfortunately like most of your islam related posts, it was pointless :)

Waylander

[zarah]

And just further..

I haven't done anything other than provide historical and recorded fact. I haven't included what I believeto be true, I simply have posted what I know to be true through research. I can provide a list of books (by historical scholars, not Islamic scholars) which reference each point I made, if you would like.

[zarah]

Unfortunately like most of your islam related posts, it was pointless :)

Waylander

Ahhhh...it didn't concur with your xenophobic little mindset and so you discounted it. How unlike you. :)

Actually, as I clearly gave context, it most certainly did have a point - it just wasn't that clear to you. Not really a surprise.

I think you should post in that topic where you have to describe the person who posted before you. I think I have you nailed: From near to Scotland, quite chunky 16stone ish...about 5 ft 10, balding...tattoos which either depict a 'British Bulldog' or have an England flag, married with a rat or a gerbil or something little and you live in a small town where a pub's the central focal point.:)

[waylander]

I haven't done anything other than provide historical and recorded fact.

Snap ! :):):)

Happy Days,,we must both be ace.

Waylander:cool:

[zarah]

Snap ! :):):)

Happy Days,,we must both be ace.

Waylander:cool:

Right....and?

Do you know what context means?

[waylander]

I think you should post in that topic where you have to describe the person who posted before you. I think I have you nailed: From near to Scotland, quite chunky 16stone ish...about 5 ft 10, balding...tattoos which either depict a 'British Bulldog' or have an England flag, married with a rat or a gerbil or something little and you live in a small town where a pub's the central focal point.:)

LOL:D

You are as wrong on that as you are on islsam :);)

Waylander:cool:

P.S. admit it you just want me to post a description of myself, to fuel you fantasies ;)

[waylander]

Do you know what context means?

Thats when some one from prison sends a message to your phone.:rolleyes:

Waylander:cool:

[zarah]

LOL:D

You are as wrong on that as you are on islsam :);)

Waylander:cool:

P.S. admit it you just want me to post a description of myself, to fuel you fantasies ;)

I totally bet I'm not. I don't practice Islam. I'm English and was raised as a Catholic. Now I don't practice any religion and just try to be a good honest person. I'm not brainwashed by anything, because I believe organised religion is a tool of control - history shows this to be an accurate summary, no? You and others like you are miscontruing Islam, so I'm just providing what I know to be correct as an antitheis to your rhetoric.

I don't fantasise over a name and a lame 'cool' icon, but I absolutely would bet my last malteser I'm right about you. :)

[waylander]

I but I absolutely would bet my last malteser I'm right about you. :)

You'll never now how far out you is. Hunnykins ;)

Waylander:)

[zarah]

You'll never now how far out you is. Hunnykins ;)

Waylander:)

I really don't think I am, but you're right, I won't ever be able to prove it. :)

[marc_o]

Read my post:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058680424#post1058680424

And why don't they look at the problems at the bible (http://www.answering-christianity.com/killer.htm) and try to find problems in Quran while there isn't any so they fake it?

And he only had children from his first wife Khadija which was a 40 years widow and he was 25, And other children would marry at their teen ages, And got one child from an other wife.
And child brides was very common with Jewish and Romans even with nobility, And the maximum age was between 40 and 60.
Look at this (http://www.answering-christianity.com/is_muhammad_true_prophet_3.htm#muhammad_and_aisha) .

Why are you basing your moral integrity on comparisons to other religions.

I think all religions are detrimental to humanity, including Christianity, and certainly Judaism.

What I'm asking you is simple, are you, as a Muslim, supposed to emulate the prophet Muhammed as a model of a perfect human being?

Because the man killed people. Muhammed killed other humans. He married a child. Whether or not other religions did it is beside the point. that child had no choice in the matter, nor the understanding or development to understand the situation, thus forcing the child into a situation that she may not have eventually wanted to occur.

So is this the model way to behave? If so it raises many valid questions, such as when is it OK to kill someone, seeing as though the prophet Muhammed did. Is it OK to marry a child? For what purpose would you marry a child?

[thereisonlywe]

Why are you basing your moral integrity on comparisons to other religions.

I think all religions are detrimental to humanity, including Christianity, and certainly Judaism.

What I'm asking you is simple, are you, as a Muslim, supposed to emulate the prophet Muhammed as a model of a perfect human being?

Because the man killed people. Muhammed killed other humans. He married a child. Whether or not other religions did it is beside the point. that child had no choice in the matter, nor the understanding or development to understand the situation, thus forcing the child into a situation that she may not have eventually wanted to occur.

So is this the model way to behave? If so it raises many valid questions, such as when is it OK to kill someone, seeing as though the prophet Muhammed did. Is it OK to marry a child? For what purpose would you marry a child?

1- A Muslim is not supposed to kill people. Muhammad was a prophet and as every prophet he didn't do anything besides what was ordered. Do you blame God when It kills people by an earthquake. Do you think those earthquakes are just random?

2- Muhammad didn't marry a child. Please do proper research.

3- Muhammad is the Perfect "Perfect Man". He hid most of his virtues, so people don't worship him, but God. Of course he knew some day he would be blamed like this. But it doesn't matter. One who wants to know about Muhammad can still do it.

If you are serious about learning about Muhammad. Read this book: Amazon.com: Ibn-Al-Arabi: The Bezels of Wisdom (Classics of Western Spirituality Series) (9780809123315): Ibn-Al-Arabi, R.W.J. Austin, Titus Burckhardt: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uEiwIHgmL.@@AMEPARAM@@51uEiwIHgmL

However, if your aim is simply to asperse, please keep it to yourself so people who don't know about him don't approach him with prejudice.

If people knew Muhammad as we do, they would shut their mouth and cry.

Love&Peace

[pert]

Why are you basing your moral integrity on comparisons to other religions.

I think all religions are detrimental to humanity, including Christianity, and certainly Judaism.

What I'm asking you is simple, are you, as a Muslim, supposed to emulate the prophet Muhammed as a model of a perfect human being?

Because the man killed people. Muhammed killed other humans. He married a child. Whether or not other religions did it is beside the point. that child had no choice in the matter, nor the understanding or development to understand the situation, thus forcing the child into a situation that she may not have eventually wanted to occur.

So is this the model way to behave? If so it raises many valid questions, such as when is it OK to kill someone, seeing as though the prophet Muhammed did. Is it OK to marry a child? For what purpose would you marry a child?

It also disturbs me that he had revelations whenever it seemed convenient and had people killed for insulting him. His attitude to animal rights wasn't exactly progressive either.

[thereisonlywe]

It also disturbs me that he had revelations whenever it seemed convenient and had people killed for insulting him. His attitude to animal rights wasn't exactly progressive either.

Do they teach you these in Churches?

Love&Peace

[pert]

Do they teach you these in Churches?

Love&Peace

I don't go to church

[thereisonlywe]

I don't go to church

So, do you mind telling how did you get the impression Muhammad kills people who insult him?

You are so ignorant. We told over and over again that Muhammad didn't see people apart from himself, but you don't get it do you?

Well thanks to you, we have one more reason to be thankful.

Love&Peace

[pert]

So, do you mind telling how did you get the impression Muhammad kills people who insult him?

Love&Peace

The cases of Uqbu bin Abu Muayt, Asma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, etc

[thereisonlywe]

The cases of Uqbu bin Abu Muayt, Asma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, etc

They are all theories. If you want to believe in them go ahead.

Love&Peace

[picha]

How Should We Speak to Them about Islam?




Muslims going to America and Europe are faced with a flood of questions about Islam. People have many ways of asking these question and different motivations for doing so, but their questions are essentially as follows:

Why does Islam permit polygamy?

Why is a woman counted as half a man in matters of inheritance and when she gives testimony?

Why does Islam “belittle” women?

Is Islam a religion of terror since it prescribes jihad?

Who should we believe: Sunnis or Shiites?

Questions like these are what occupy their minds when they think about Islam, since the Western media has actively maligned Islam as a religion of lust and blood and nothing else. When our Muslim youth goes to their countries, they often find such questions awkward and try to evade them.

They might say things like: Permission for polygamy is conditional upon justice between wives and justice between wives is impossible to achieve. Allah says: “You will not be able to be just between women even if you strive to do so.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 129] Whatever is conditional upon something impossible is impossible itself. Therefore, polygamy is forbidden in Islam.

In many cases, Muslims will come across a strange opinion on a matter and promote it simply because it is more conciliatory.

When I visited America, I found that many Muslims who did not have correct or sufficient Islamic knowledge suffered from such difficulties. They really did not know what to do.

I used to tell them the following: Why should we be on the defensive? Why don’t we adopt a more assertive attitude? If they confront us one question, we should respond with ten of our own. If they ask us about jihad, we should ask them about America’s openly aggressive policies in many parts of the world, not to mention all of their covert operations.

If they ask you about polygamy, ask them about the sexual promiscuity that is rife in their societies that has brought humiliation to so many women and allowed men to absolve themselves of their responsibilities towards them and towards their children?

If they ask you about inequalities in inheritance, ask them about the reality in their own country where a woman earns only 60% of what a man earns for doing the exact same job.

I do not mean that we should be evasive. However, it is not good for you to respond when you are in a state of weakness and difficulty where there is a danger that you might answer falsely and misrepresent Allah’s religion in order to appease someone else.

You can move on to a more advanced level of discourse and demonstrate that Islamic teachings are the solution to the problems that they are suffering from. For instance, according to some assessments, there are 119 women to every 100 men in the United States. In some states, the number is more like 160 women to every 100 men. Polygamy is the solution to the problems that ensue under such circumstances, since it requires some men to assume responsibility for more than one woman and to be as just as humanly possible in doing so.

We can stress how Islam teaches equality between all people. There is no preference for anyone over anyone else except by a person’s piety and virtue. This is the way to do away with the problem of racism that people in the West suffer from.

The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality.

There are a few points that I would like to emphasize:

1. Matters of Islamic law are established by the unambiguous texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah. No one, regardless of who he is, has the right to change, add, or subtract anything to placate anyone’s desires or fears. When someone who is calling others to Islam meddles with Allah’s ruling on a matter and misinforms people, he is doing a disservice to Islam as well as deceiving others. He has no right to meddle in matters of Islamic Law that are the jurisdiction of Allah alone.

2. Matters that fall within the scope of juristic discretion and allow for differences of opinion should be presented in a balanced and objective manner by the person who is calling others to Islam. He should take circumstances into consideration when doing so. He should not select the most severe and restrictive opinion on a matter and present it to the people as if it is Islam itself, especially when he is trying to endear Islam to the people’s hearts.

3. Our objective should be to convince others of the correctness of the Islamic ruling so that they will accept it. We must employ all of our knowledge and reasoning abilities in achieving this objective. We must provide all the relevant facts. We can employ to our advantage other aspects of knowledge that we find to be of benefit in convincing others of Islam, like the scientific miracles of the Qur’ân, statistical information, circumstances and experiences, and rational arguments. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is an integral part of conveying the truth to the people.

4. We must instill in the hearts of our young people complete and total confidence in every aspect of Islam, from the most general teachings of their faith to the most specific. We must dispel any sense of weakness or deficiency that they might possibly feel at the hands of some of those who dispute with them.

We do a disservice to Islam if we lead the people to believe that Islam is close to the life that they already living and that the Islamic approach to life is not much different than their own. This only makes the people feel that Islam is unnecessary for them and encourages them to turn away from it. They are, in fact, trying to escape from the hellish aspects of the lives that they are already leading. They need to be presented with an alternative.

When they ask about Islam or even about something else, they are looking for a way out. They are looking for something to rescue them. Therefore, we must present Islam to them with all of its uniqueness and show them clearly how it differs from their own life experiences. In this way, we encourage them to think about Islam.

We must present Islam to them in a logical manner with clear and insightful arguments. Our responsibility ends here. Indeed, this was the extent of the responsibility of Allah’s Messengers (peace be upon them). Allah says to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him):

“It is naught your duty but to convey the message.” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 48]

“It is your duty only to convey the message. It is upon Us to take account.” [Sûrah al-Ra`d: 40]

“So admonish them. You are but one who admonishes. You do not control their affairs.” [Sûrah al-Ghâshiyah: 21-22]

It is not necessary for us to fancy that the whole world will convert to Islam at our hands. However, we must be eager to guide them and we must seek to do so in every possible and permissible way. We should perfect our way of presenting Islam to them, taking into account the age, circumstances, and level of knowledge of those whom we are addressing. We must present to them the noble Islamic values of freedom, justice, and human dignity and prove to them that Islam is superior to everything that they already know.

Above and beyond all of this, we must conduct ourselves in the best, moth ethical manner and present our own lives as a practical example of moral virtue.

Unfortunately, many Muslims call people to Islam with their tongues while pushing them away from it with their ignoble, contradictory conduct and with their narrow-mindedness.

this article is not mine it is from islamway.com


If you want to speak to us about it, you can just start by explaining the premise its based on. Thankfully I think you will find that most native europeans have fully functioning bullshit detectors.

[thereisonlywe]

If you want to speak to us about it, you can just start by explaining the premise its based on. Thankfully I think you will find that most native europeans have fully functioning bullshit detectors.

Evidence of discrimination: "most native europeans have fully functioning bullshit detectors" So, others either create b.s. or not able to separate b.s. from truth. If it is the second case, what makes you able and others not?

Interpretation: You can't be just.

Love&Peace

[marc_o]

1- A Muslim is not supposed to kill people. Muhammad was a prophet and as every prophet he didn't do anything besides what was ordered. Do you blame God when It kills people by an earthquake. Do you think those earthquakes are just random?

2- Muhammad didn't marry a child. Please do proper research.

3- Muhammad is the Perfect "Perfect Man". He hid most of his virtues, so people don't worship him, but God. Of course he knew some day he would be blamed like this. But it doesn't matter. One who wants to know about Muhammad can still do it.

If you are serious about learning about Muhammad. Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Ibn-Al-Arabi-Bezels-Classics-Western-Spirituality/dp/0809123312/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267523698&sr=8-1

However, if your aim is simply to asperse, please keep it to yourself so people who don't know about him don't approach him with prejudice.

If people knew Muhammad as we do, they would shut their mouth and cry.

Love&Peace

Ok, I am coming from a perspective where I know very little about Muhammed. However I am of the opinion that if God orders someone to kill then that is unjust, and would underscore the horrible nature of this 'God'.

Personally I dont bevlive in the Mono-theistic view of god, but more as God as a benevolent creator, in the deistic sense.

So was Muhammed speaking directly to God, and thats why he murdered countless individuals?

It just seems like another silly religious dogma to me, just like Christianity and Judaism etc. What seemed dangerous to me was the fact that the most 'Perfect Man' murdered individuals. Its a bit of a cop out saying God told him to do it. That reason alone seems to me why Muslims are usually inclined to incite violence against those who speak out against Muhammed. Think Salman Rushdie.

Also, when Salman Rushdie made his book the Satanic Verses, would Islam have condoned killing him? I know you say that Muslims are not permitted to 'murder', but are they allowed to do it in the name of Islam, if indeed Islam does permit it in certain cases? If so what are these cases?

I'm confused, Islam does never permit a Muslim to take the life of another individual, no matter what????

I'll leave the child marriage stuff alone, because you obviously know more than me about it, and you are probably right about it. Although others defending Islam on here do admit that Muhammed married a child, so I'm not quite sure what to believe on that one.

[thereisonlywe]

Ok, I am coming from a perspective where I know very little about Muhammed. However I am of the opinion that if God orders someone to kill then that is unjust, and would underscore the horrible nature of this 'God'.

Personally I dont bevlive in the Mono-theistic view of god, but more as God as a benevolent creator, in the deistic sense.

So was Muhammed speaking directly to God, and thats why he murdered countless individuals?

It just seems like another silly religious dogma to me, just like Christianity and Judaism etc. What seemed dangerous to me was the fact that the most 'Perfect Man' murdered individuals. Its a bit of a cop out saying God told him to do it. That reason alone seems to me why Muslims are usually inclined to incite violence against those who speak out against Muhammed. Think Salman Rushdie.

Also, when Salman Rushdie made his book the Satanic Verses, would Islam have condoned killing him? I know you say that Muslims are not permitted to 'murder', but are they allowed to do it in the name of Islam, if indeed Islam does permit it in certain cases? If so what are these cases?

I'm confused, Islam does never permit a Muslim to take the life of another individual, no matter what????

I'll leave the child marriage stuff alone, because you obviously know more than me about it, and you are probably right about it. Although others defending Islam on here do admit that Muhammed married a child, so I'm not quite sure what to believe on that one.

Hi marc,

You have to know that everyone has his time and will die when the time comes. So, be it murder, illness, natural disaster, aging or whatsoever, we all die and go afterworld where we will live our "true" life.

This life is where we sow, the other life is where we reap.

Now, God doesn't order killing. It orders to forgive: "Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant." (7:199). You can only kill a person as a matter of defending yourself and you have to face if it was necessary or not until the rest of your life.

Why did Muhammad and his followers killed people then? Did you know that the war with unbelievers was first forbidden by God? There is an event where a Muslim killed an unbeliever and Muhammad berated him really bad. But, it was getting harder for Muslims to live. Unbelievers were killing Muslims, not letting them pray and mocking them... Afterwards, it came to Muhammad via inspiration that it is now okay to fight with them. Then, they fought (for freedom). Instead of killing captives, Muhammad wanted each captive to teach 10 Muslims to read and write and set them free. Most captives became Muslims after knowing Muhammad.

Know that , if you have a bit of mercy in you then it is from God. Therefore, you can't expect It to be cruel. It gives you what you feel.

Btw, most Muslims don't know about child marriage issue also, because it was found recently by a research that Aishe who was claimed to be 9 was at least 15 when she married Muhammad.

We highly advise that you read our posts, they will make you understand (Islam=peace=religion=path to oneness) better.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95427
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105745
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104608

And marc, we understand your confusion. Because there are many people hiding under the "Muslim" name. From terrorists to this: saudi muslim girls - YouTube
We ensure you that is not the religion "Islam" refers to.

Hope this helps,
Love&Peace