Musings about genesis

[drael]

Genesis 3:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us" (About eating the fruit)

One of who? There are several places in genesis, where god refers to "we", and reading it recently It sort of stuck out. Who is god referring to here with "us"?

[loveisthelaw]

Genesis 3:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us" (About eating the fruit)

One of who? There are several places in genesis, where god refers to "we", and reading it recently It sort of stuck out. Who is god referring to here with "us"?

The Bible can be analysed in several ways, and it's sources are not 100% clear. Some say that the 'us' refer a "trinity", some say to another creation, such as the Anunnaki but I am not sure about this.

In the Quraan, God uses we a lot. It is the royal we meaning I. Have a look here: We - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not sure if Us can be used in the same way. Hope this helps

[jesusistruth]

It's especially perplexing because it confirms what the serpent said:

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Supposodely with "us" he means the "elohims" which is translated as gods.

[loveisthelaw]

It's especially perplexing because it confirms what the serpent said:

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Supposodely with "us" he means the "elohims" which is translated as gods.

yes, good point. It 'could' also mean being not of the material plane, with reference to understanding and knowledge. It can be viewed in many ways, but not all will be automatically right, per say.

Looking at the context of how it is said, God would not need to say "For God doth know" - It would make more sense, to me, for God to say "For I doth know" so we then come to the issue of who is actually speaking. Is it an Angel, is it an alien, is it a Jinn, is it some other being?...

I am not saying it is not God because I am Muslim, it really might be, but nobody is actually 100% sure who even wrote the material. As such we have no real frame of reference to who is actually speaking here.

It's a wonderful, yet potentially complex 1 liner :)

[drael]

Supposodely with "us" he means the "elohims" which is translated as gods.

God(s)??? :confused:

Given that, quite clearly there must be at least one other god, for him to say "us"???

And is it me, or does it sound like God is talking to someone in these instances of talking of "we" etc. In fact generally some of genesis sounds like a monologue to some hidden audience.

Its funny how then genesis slowly merges into a historical and cultural account after the deeply mystical begining.

[jesusistruth]

Looking at the context of how it is said, God would not need to say "For God doth know" - It would make more sense, to me, for God to say "For I doth know" so we then come to the issue of who is actually speaking. Is it an Angel, is it an alien, is it a Jinn, is it some other being?...

The serpent said that, not God...


God(s)??? :confused:

Given that, quite clearly there must be at least one other god, for him to say "us"???

And is it me, or does it sound like God is talking to someone in these instances of talking of "we" etc. In fact generally some of genesis sounds like a monologue to some hidden audience.


"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Clearly, whoever this Us is, they are in the image of God.



Its funny how then genesis slowly merges into a historical and cultural account after the deeply mystical begining.

You know really, unless Hell is real this is just pointless mumbo jumbo and we should be more concerned about having the job we like and being merry. :)


edit: A point though, the "us" could be angels. Throughout the books of Moses, the angels that appear speak in the first person of God - as if it was God, but appearing like an angel.

[loveisthelaw]

The serpent said that

My bad, rereading the thread again, I got it.


You know really, unless Hell is real this is just pointless mumbo jumbo and we should be more concerned about having the job we like and being merry.

Yes, the reality is that it is a 50/50 shot, no matter what any one says. I am certain that it Islam is the truth for me, and that judgement is awaiting us but that is just my opinion through research, experience, implementation and the initial igniting belief :) "Truth stands out clear from error"

You have to look at both sides, you have to determine if the investment, or lack of, is worth it then you also need to consider what you have to lose. And even then, you could still be wrong, either way. (Not saying you will be, but you could be)

Sorry for being devil's advocate. :)

[drael]

I gain strength from stories with wisdom, and symbols that are potent. They facinate me.

I dont think the bible has a literal hell. Remember the devil is actually two fictional characters, one a joke, the other a metaphor. The bible is trickier with its numbers, symbols, word play, metaphors and in-jokes, than you might realise, if your only exposure if from a normal christian POV. Plus it makes much more sense if you ignore some parts, and if you read the gnostic scripture, and look at translation issues.

And look at what we are talking about here. The original sin was knowledge. That is to say the beleif, the arrogance to assume we know something better than God. The sin that damned humanity, wasnt some depraved sex act, or murder - it was dualistic/heirarchical thinking - like we find in absolutists everywhere, and on which foundation false idols and kings are built (And ironically the idolatric absolutists that call themselves Christians)

To me, its an amazing book, the bible, but I also like the kyballion & the dao de jing.

[loveisthelaw]

I gain strength from stories with wisdom, and symbols that are potent. They facinate me.

I dont think the bible has a literal hell. Remember the devil is actually two fictional characters, one a joke, the other a metaphor. The bible is trickier with its numbers, symbols, word play, metaphors and in-jokes, than you might realise, if your only exposure if from a normal christian POV. Plus it makes much more sense if you ignore some parts, and if you read the gnostic scripture, and look at translation issues.


You should also read the other religions scriptures (such as Islam, Zoarastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism) as it will improve your understanding of your own, if you have one. Also, things such as Theurgy, Theosophy, Gnosticism etc will also be useful, if you have not already read them.


And look at what we are talking about here. The original sin was knowledge. That is to say the beleif, the arrogance to assume we know something better than God. The sin that damned humanity, wasnt some depraved sex act, or murder - it was dualistic/heirarchical thinking - like we find in absolutists everywhere, and on which foundation false idols and kings are built (And ironically the idolatric absolutists that call themselves Christians)


I am not sure the original sin was gaining knowledge - disobedience of the creator sounds more in tune with the issue :) a lack of submission of the will, a lack of Islam (Submission).


To me, its an amazing book, the bible, but I also like the kyballion & the dao de jing.

Yes, it is. All knowledge is amazing and beautiful - Check out "Tao Teh King", note that it is not Tao Teh Ching :)

[dragon fang]

It can be God + the laws of the universe.

[drael]

You should also read the other religions scriptures (such as Islam, Zoarastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism) as it will improve your understanding of your own, if you have one.

Im a mystic and one time magician. Parts of the koran look tantalisingly mystic. And im interested in the ideas of Zoarastrianism - the whole life versus death, order versus chaos paradigm. Mental alchemy is a good practice too. Hinduism has some very interesting veiws on magick and medititation.

Also, things such as Theurgy, Theosophy, Gnosticism etc will also be useful, if you have not already read them.


Im all about gnosticism and hermeticism :D Theosophy didnt seem like my bag...Theurgy, whats that?

No dear, the original sin was not gaining knowledge - the original sin was disobedience of the creator


Yes but there is a reason that tree is forbidden, because duality and heirarchy is the foundation of all claims to gods authority. Think about. How do the officials on the news get people to buy their story, or advertisers getting your to worship capitialism, or scientists...etc etc - all with the notion of absolute knowledge. The symbolism of this pretence to gods authority, is a theme throughout the whole book. Well anyway, thats my take on the true meaning of sin, but hey, im a mystic.

Yes, it is. All knowledge is amazing and beautiful - Check out "Tao Teh King", note that it is not Tao Teh Ching

And whats that?

[loveisthelaw]

Im all about gnosticism and hermeticism :D Theosophy didnt seem like my bag...Theurgy, whats that?


Theurgy is practical implementation of knowledge. I am not saying you should perform magic rituals, but reading about it might interest you. It is very close to Hermeticism, which is where you get The Golden Dawn.


Yes but there is a reason that tree is forbidden, because duality and heirarchy is the foundation of all claims to gods authority.

Hmmm, you could be right. My understanding of this issue now is that Islam is a religion which states everything is a test, so in my opinion, avoiding the Mysticism for a second. The Tree was simply a test for the creation, to determine whether they would submit to God or submit to their desires. Since Muslims, and I believe all man kind are meant to strive to prevent their animal and selfish desires being in control, so that they can be clear minded and focus on doing what they were created for, and on complementing Gods will - not the same as Buddhism, but close. Since this life is merely a short transition, the hope is to remove these negative desires control and grasp of the mind and heart and have God as the central motivation.

Clearly, Adam and Eve failed here.

Yet again, you could be right about the Hierarchical issue, I never though of it like this. I will have a think on your idea :)


And whats that?


It is a different take on "Tao Teh Ching" :) Also Google for "The book of wisdom or folly". Since you are interested in Gnosis, it might or might not grow your view.

[michael christopher]

The Bible can be analysed in several ways, and it's sources are not 100% clear. Some say that the 'us' refer a "trinity", some say to another creation, such as the Anunnaki but I am not sure about this.

In the Quraan, God uses we a lot. It is the royal we meaning I. Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We

I am not sure if Us can be used in the same way. Hope this helps

The idea of the royal we presupposes that all people "under" the hierarch are a part of the hierarch. So in the idea that God uses the royal we in the Bible, it says that God is saying we are literally parts of him. Which isn't really a Christian idea. Just an observation, not precisely relevant to the OP.

[michael christopher]

It's especially perplexing because it confirms what the serpent said:

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Supposodely with "us" he means the "elohims" which is translated as gods.

If God is saying that, it is saying God who created Eden is but one amongst many Elohim.

[michael christopher]

Im a mystic and one time magician. Parts of the koran look tantalisingly mystic. And im interested in the ideas of Zoarastrianism - the whole life versus death, order versus chaos paradigm. Mental alchemy is a good practice too. Hinduism has some very interesting veiws on magick and medititation.



Im all about gnosticism and hermeticism :D Theosophy didnt seem like my bag...Theurgy, whats that?


Yes but there is a reason that tree is forbidden, because duality and heirarchy is the foundation of all claims to gods authority. Think about. How do the officials on the news get people to buy their story, or advertisers getting your to worship capitialism, or scientists...etc etc - all with the notion of absolute knowledge. The symbolism of this pretence to gods authority, is a theme throughout the whole book. Well anyway, thats my take on the true meaning of sin, but hey, im a mystic.



And whats that?

So you are saying that knowledge is what allowed man to create the idea of evil/the devil, which gives man a choice between doing what man wants to do and doing what God wants to do. That sounds like a pretty good explanation to me, I've never thought of it that way. I always imagined God wanted us to test his command to not eat the apple because a) he is omniscient b) he put it right in the middle of the garden and c) he had to have foreseen that they would eat the apple when he created them and thus it must have been a part of his plan for them to eat it.

[loveisthelaw]

it must have been a part of his plan for them to eat it.

I agree with this. That is why Islam does not believe in original sin, and that all humans are born in to sin. They GROW into or CHOOSE to sin.

[elirien]

Genesis 3:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us" (About eating the fruit)

One of who? There are several places in genesis, where god refers to "we", and reading it recently It sort of stuck out. Who is god referring to here with "us"?

It is the "we" that is the one in (or is) the many.

"The Ancient Hebrew form -Elohim- has a plural ending, which can be interpreted many ways, "the one that is also many" or "unity in diversity".

source: http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=sOr_4MpJ3moC&printsec=frontcover&dq=neal+douglas+klotz+elohim&source=bl&ots=jnYdOlzPnr&sig=SH7TvZo_xp5UnRKvm-ytLT1DObk&hl=tr&ei=uWCJS_OOJYfi4gaz9Ky1Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CC8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=elohim&f=false

This is a good interpretation.

[jesusistruth]

advertisers getting your to worship capitialism

Now what's wrong with capitalism?

[drael]

Now what's wrong with capitalism?

Its fundamentally selfish. It is worshipped in the place of God, and given authority (False idol). Desire is an obstacle to spirituality.

There is a reason the prophets where opposed to royalty, and taxpayers and the like. Their power is built on a lie, an illusion. Think. What makes a rich man "better" than you? Or a king? Nothing more than an imagination game. Of course, if one looks at the US dollar bill, youll know how seriously some people take making sure this illusion sticks.

For further illustration lets look at the symbol of dualitity and oneness, the triangle.

The base of the triangle describes duality, a choice between "this thing" or "that thing", "hot" "cold" light/dark or any other assertion of material facts, and particularly "good"/"evil" "sacred"/unholy "expert"/idiot "authority"/plebe. "king"/serf. Anyways, you get the point. The apex of the triangle represents how god sees the universe, as a transcendant whole, one thing united, unnammed, undivided.

The ptb, try and use this magick, on the US dollar bill, of the triangle, to claim ownership of the transcendant view, gods veiw, so that everyone is trapped in duality.

So you see how duality is a series of illusions that enslave and diminish people now?

Essentially make beleive run amok amongst grown adults. The earliest instances of this "good"/"bad" in language are the concepts of sacred/taboo. They set up false heirarchies, false idols, false gods.

Every spiritual book ive read speaks of the dangers of pretend gods. With krishna, it was the king he bore on his back. With jesus it was royalty, tax collectors, the romans and pharisees. Even the story of atlantis warns of them, the tower of babel etc.

[jesusistruth]

Its fundamentally selfish. It is worshipped in the place of God, and given authority (False idol). Desire is an obstacle to spirituality.

It is fundementally unselfish as it is based on service to others. And I think no matter how spiritual you are, you will still be needing food.

And why is it you say, that I should worship God? Meditation hardly counts as worship.

There is a reason the prophets where opposed to royalty, and taxpayers and the like. Their power is built on a lie, an illusion. Think. What makes a rich man "better" than you? Or a king? Nothing more than an imagination game. Of course, if one looks at the US dollar bill, youll know how seriously some people take making sure this illusion sticks.

Taxcollectors are not capitalists. 'Prophets' are opposed to money because they have none and make up some crappy religion to feel good about themselves.

Most people become rich because they offer something useful and appreciable.

For further illustration lets look at the symbol of dualitity and oneness, the triangle.

The base of the triangle describes duality, a choice between "this thing" or "that thing", "hot" "cold" light/dark or any other assertion of material facts, and particularly "good"/"evil" "sacred"/unholy "expert"/idiot "authority"/plebe. "king"/serf. Anyways, you get the point. The apex of the triangle represents how god sees the universe, as a transcendant whole, one thing united, unnammed, undivided.

The ptb, try and use this magick, on the US dollar bill, of the triangle, to claim ownership of the transcendant view, gods veiw, so that everyone is trapped in duality.

So you see how duality is a series of illusions that enslave and diminish people now?

I don't think the Great Seal does anything to your mind.

Seriously, unless you're gonna grow food with prayer you will not find a better way to sustain yourself and live life unless you like being governed, oppressed and deprived.

[bendoon]

Genesis 3:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us" (About eating the fruit)

One of who? There are several places in genesis, where god refers to "we", and reading it recently It sort of stuck out. Who is god referring to here with "us"?

One of us, knowing right from wrong.

Animals don't know right from wrong, humans do, its called a conscience, animals only behave on instinct.