Just WHO IS Jesus' Father?

[measle_weasel]

This topic arose in another thread of mine, and I believe its a large enough topic to warrant its own thread.

Just WHO IS Jesus' Father?

Jesus, a man of peace and love, forgiveness and mercy, was truly a great man who taught those who would listen to him exactly how to live just as He did. But contrasting this great entity, whatever He was, to Jehovah (god of the OT, war and jealously, and other not nice things), who "Christianity" calls His Father, the open minded individual starts to notice that somethings are just not adding up.

From this point Ill preface that I am not a bible scholar, and do not have instantaneous recall of every single relevant passage. And that is partly why I make this thread, to get the perspective of those who are bible scholars, at least compared to me. Ill also say that as I believe most of the bible to be heavily edited and most messages to be corrupted in the interests of serving Rome, that to me this is more of a thought exercise, rather than a debate over what is the absolute truth, and what is not.

My first question pertaining to the original question at hand, is: Did Jesus ever actually state that His Father was Jehovah/Yahweh? From my knowledge of the gospels, I have no recollection of a passage where Jesus states the actual name of His Father, though it would not suprise if there was such a passage. I am more familer with Him refering to God as "My Father", "The One who sent Me", etc. Assuming that there is some verse where Jesus does say that Jehovah is who He is refering to, what is the general ratio of Jesus referencing a specific name, as opposed to titles? Do you believe that if there is a very low ratio, that Jehovah was simply switched in with one of the non-descript titles Jesus uses for God, during the minimum 1300 year (Council of Nicea to first KJV (yes I know its heavily edited as well) editing process of the bible?

Secondly, assuming that there are actual references, as far as can be told, in the bible that Jesus proclaims Jehovah to be His Father, it just doesnt make sense how something so wonderous can come from something so horrendous. The official story is akin to putting a huge load of poo in the microwave, hitting the 30 second button, and getting a gigantic, shining, perfect diamond as a result.

Jesus seems to be the polar opposite of Jehovah, which calls into question why He would ask you to venerate such a horrible entity, and why He would give him such credit and praise.

Jesus personifies peace, Jehovah, war. Jesus commands to love thy enemy, Jehovah tells you to go murder them down to the last child. Jesus promises intangible rewards (at least on this plane) to his followers and to get yourself out of the materialist mindset, Jehovah promised land and worldy riches to his (maybe Jehovah has fulfilled that promise to his "chosen"?). Whatever Jesus said, it was pretty much at odds with the precedent that Jehovah set. In fact, I recall some bible passage where Jesus pretty clearly states that His law is the new law, and His teachings overturn the spiteful and hate filled teachings of this so called "god" named Jehovah (Ill admit that I might have slightly embellished the wording on that paraphrase, but the idea remains the same).

Also, Jesus somewhere says He is the gateway to the Father, paraphrased. Why would someone put such a magnificent gateway onto what must be a horrible little (or maybe quite large) hovel infested with jealousy, wrath, and servitude? I guess it would work as a pretty good practical joke, but I dont believe Jesus to be Loki, so I dismiss such an idea.

These points taken into account, just WHO IS Jesus' Father? Surely it cant be Jehovah, who it seems is more akin to Satan than to the actual Creator, and surely Jesus and Jehovah cannot be "one" as the bible wants you to believe.

Jesus says:A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
— John 13:34-35 (KJV)

In response to a lawyer's question, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?", Jesus answered: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Gospel of Matthew 22:35-40, parallels are Mark 12:28-31 and Luke 10:25-28, see also Mark 12 and the Didache).
(Im betting that Jesus aint referencing Jehovah with the great commandment)

Proxy for Jehovah says: Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
(Jehovah, god of holocausts, too.)

I think my stance on this question is clear. Whats yours?

[michael christopher]

Excellent post. You've rationalized and put into words exactly the contradiction which allows me to know that the Bible is flawed, and is certainly not infallible. The idea that the Bible can be infallible just doesn't make sense when Jehovah seems to be so opposite to Jesus. See, to me, this is not a matter of debate. It's not to say I'm misunderstanding the nature of Yahweh/Jehovah. How can I misunderstand it? It's spelled out quite plainly that Yahweh is a monster who kills children, smites people for not believing in him (why haven't I been smited if Yahweh is real?), hardens hearts only to punish those whose hearts he hardens... it's just absurd.

The Bible cannot be accepted at face value, it's just impossible to do it. There are many apologists who will try to come up with many different explanations to explain the contradictions, primarily because they want to believe so badly that they have a one-way ticket to heaven. That is why Christianity, as illogical and irrational as it is, is accepted. People can't just take Jesus' words because by taking his philosophy, they must desert almost everything about themselves. It's really hard to live in a place like America and act as Jesus acted, because you would be homeless and starving and people would treat you like shit. It's much easier to accept society for how it is, and to do that means that one also has to accept the guilt that comes with it. But wait! There's a way out of that guilt. It's called Roman Christianity - well, ignoring the Roman part because that makes too many people uncomfortable (except for Catholics, who are proud of their horrific heritage). Christianity promises you that by faith alone - at least when it isn't promising that works prove faith - you will get to heaven. It also gives you the right to judge others, which you were doing anyway, but now you can feel very righteous about it.

This is what happens when the contradiction of Yahweh is mixed with Jesus/Yeshua, his counterpoint. It allows people to act as depraved or as self-righteous as they wish. It gives people everything they want (unless they're gay) because they simply have to repent later to get into heaven. This was the reason the OT was combined with the NT - not that the NT is so holy, Paul graffitis his filth all over most of it.

It's very hard for me to talk about the Bible without getting passionately upset about what it has done to this world. It's taken the most beautiful truths imaginable and thrown them in amidst dirt.

Christians will try to explain to you in as many different ways as you can imagine why it was necessary for Yahweh to be evil in the Old Testament. But the truth is, they don't have the answers. It doesn't take a genius to see that Yahweh clearly calls himself a jealous God, he clearly destroys city. Doesn't the Bible itself say that we shall know them by their fruits? Doesn't the fruit of genocide and war taste bitter to you? By getting people to accept that these things are necessary, it forces them to accept that they are necessary in a modern context. People are far more likely to support a bullshit war in Iraq if they believe God dishes out war. It's a political tool. Yahweh is the God of politics - he is, after all, an emanation of the Chesed Sephiroth on the tree of life. Chesed is the representation of Mercy/Justice, and has conversely been represented throughout history by warrior gods like Zeus, Odin, Jove, Jupiter, etc.

Jesus' original name in the Bible was "Iesous" meaning... ding ding. "Son of Zeus." The letter J didn't even exist until the King James edition.

[kasalt]

My first question pertaining to the original question at hand, is: Did Jesus ever actually state that His Father was Jehovah/Yahweh?

The short answer is, "No." Here's a reference:Archaeologists have discovered papyrus fragments of works which were later included in the canon of the New Testament dating as far back as the middle of the second century. Despite the fact that there are no autographs surviving until today, it is worth mentioning that of all 5,000 extant New Testament manuscripts none contains any form of the Hebrew יהוה (Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
Source: Tetragrammaton in the New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sofa king]

the short answer is Joseph.

There is no other way to have the lineage of Jesus traced back to David.

And without that lineage, he has no claim to be King of the Jews. The riding of donkey could not have been taken by someone not in the royal line.

[orlibonurb]

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the living God, the Alpha & Omega, the Creator, He lived among His creation as a man to die for our sins (the one and only Messiah), and He is the Holy Spirit which indwells all saved souls on the face of this planet. The trinity is Jesus. 1+1+1 = 1.


Jesus Christ is God Incarnate
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm


The Wonderful Truth of the Trinity
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/wonderful_trinity.htm



Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

Answer: Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

[michael christopher]

1+1+1 = 1

2 + 2 = 5

Sound familiar?

[zero1]

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/07/weekend_diversion_i_am_alterin/darth-vader.jpg

[measle_weasel]

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the living God, the Alpha & Omega, the Creator, He lived among His creation as a man to die for our sins (the one and only Messiah), and He is the Holy Spirit which indwells all saved souls on the face of this planet. The trinity is Jesus. 1+1+1 = 1.

Just like 2+2=5, right?

The phrase "two plus two equals five" ("2 + 2 = 5") is a slogan used in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four[1] as an example of an obviously false dogma one must believe, similar to other obviously false slogans by the Party in Nineteen Eighty-Four. It is contrasted with the phrase "two plus two makes four", the obvious – but politically inexpedient – truth. Orwell's protagonist, Winston Smith, uses the phrase to wonder if the State might declare "two plus two equals five" as a fact; he ponders whether, if everybody believes in it, does that make it true? Smith writes, "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows." Later in the novel, Smith attempts to use doublethink to teach himself that the statement "2 + 2 = 5" is true, or at least as true as any other answer one could come up with.

Eventually, while undergoing electroshock torture, Winston declared that he saw five fingers when in fact he only saw four ("Four, five, six - in all honesty I don't know"). The Inner Party interrogator of thought-criminals, O'Brien, says of the mathematically false statement that control over physical reality is unimportant; so long as one controls their own perceptions to what the Party wills, then any corporeal act is possible, in accordance with the principles of doublethink ("Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once").[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B2%3D5


You do a great job of exposing yourself, Orli :D

[orlibonurb]

Must be hard to understand Jesus is God the Father (1), He is God the Son (1) and God the Holy Spirit (1) = Jesus (1).

[zero1]

Must be hard to understand Jesus is God the Father (1), He is God the Son (1) and God the Holy Spirit (1) = Jesus (1).

Not really, this idiotic topic is best left to the ramblings of theologians.

Jesus, technically speaking, and in lots of different levels and senses (most of the metaphorical, abstract and intellectual), is his own Father; the Father is a mystical adjunct of the man-god himself. IE. he is the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer in one (Trinity).

But really, Darth Vader is his 'spiritual' daddy, be sure of it. He was Jewish and you know what he said about the Jews' father...(!)

[michael christopher]

Must be hard to understand Jesus is God the Father (1), He is God the Son (1) and God the Holy Spirit (1) = Jesus (1).

It must be hard for you to understand, you worship three different Gods yet you have been tricked into believing it is one. This is espoused by the idiotic principle 1+1+1=1 which you have come to accept, which shows something for just how easily your mind can be made up for you.

[merlincove]

the short answer is Joseph.

There is no other way to have the lineage of Jesus traced back to David.

And without that lineage, he has no claim to be King of the Jews. The riding of donkey could not have been taken by someone not in the royal line.

i'd tend to agree with sofa king here, Joseph was heir to the throne of David, and was in all probability viewed very much like a removed heir to the throne because of his lineage / bloodline of David.

Jesus therefore may have been admired by the jewish people in much the same way that the Dalai Llama is viewed by the tibetan people today, as their spiritual leader and was very much King of the Jews through bloodline / birth right as son of Joseph.

[orlibonurb]

It must be hard for you to understand, you worship three different Gods yet you have been tricked into believing it is one. This is espoused by the idiotic principle 1+1+1=1 which you have come to accept, which shows something for just how easily your mind can be made up for you.


It's not "3 different Gods". It's the Biblical trinity which is one and one only.

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit.


Reply #5.

[measle_weasel]

It's not "3 different Gods". It's the Biblical trinity which is one and one only.

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit.


Reply #5.

Repeating something over and over again doesnt make it true.

[phildee3]

Jesus' "Father" is the Ein Sof.

[zero1]

I'd tend to agree with sofa king here, Joseph was heir to the throne of David, and was in all probability viewed very much like a removed heir to the throne because of his lineage / bloodline of David.

No, he wasn't.

Jewish rite of sacred kingship and desecent is reckoned through the female, not the male.

Miryam/Mariamne/Mary, his mother, was the 'holy one' in terms of royal lineage, and it is quite likely she conceived without need of a male as the story goes, all things told.

You shouldn't listen to Protestants, or Masons like Sofa King. They see what they want to see, not what's there.

That's it, I officially resign from this discussion. Michael Christopher, take it away and give'em Hell.

[phildee3]

No, he wasn't.

Jewish rite of sacred kingship and desecent is reckoned through the female, not the male.



Sorry - read Luke 3:23-38

[1776]

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the living God, the Alpha & Omega, the Creator, He lived among His creation as a man to die for our sins (the one and only Messiah), and He is the Holy Spirit which indwells all saved souls on the face of this planet. The trinity is Jesus. 1+1+1 = 1.


Jesus Christ is God Incarnate
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm


The Wonderful Truth of the Trinity
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/wonderful_trinity.htm



Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

Answer: Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

Well put, Orli.

Thanks!

Peace&Love
God bless

[zero1]

Sorry - read Luke 3:23-38

Jews don't go by the New Testament, Phildee.

[phildee3]

the short answer is Joseph.

There is no other way to have the lineage of Jesus traced back to David.



Jospeh took Mary as his wife. That would have been enough to make Jesus his heir in the eyes of the community.

[phildee3]

Jews don't go by the New Testament, Phildee.

Maybe they don't "go" by the NT, but they don't deny everything that's in it.
Are you saying that they would claim Luke's lineage to be counterfeit?
It shows Jesus' direct line to David - that's the point.

The question of matrilinearity/patrilineality is not that simple.
There are different traditions within different sects.
Generally, one is Jewish depending on the mother being Jewish
while a son inherits his father's title, buisiness, etc.

Anyway, this thread is not about Jesus' biological father, it's about his spiritual "Father."

[measle_weasel]

The short answer is, "No":
Archaeologists have discovered papyrus fragments of works which were later included in the canon of the New Testament dating as far back as the middle of the second century. Despite the fact that there are no autographs surviving until today, it is worth mentioning that of all 5,000 extant New Testament manuscripts none contains any form of the Hebrew יהוה (Tetragrammaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton)).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament

Thank you for the link... quite interesting!

[phildee3]

The short answer is, "No." Here's a reference:Archaeologists have discovered papyrus fragments of works which were later included in the canon of the New Testament dating as far back as the middle of the second century. Despite the fact that there are no autographs surviving until today, it is worth mentioning that of all 5,000 extant New Testament manuscripts none contains any form of the Hebrew יהוה (Tetragrammaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton)).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament

QED:
Jesus' "Father" is not Yahweh!!!

Any other contenders besides Ayn Soph, folks?

[jesusistruth]

And Jesus taught them, saying, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.

And one man said, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

And Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the Earthly Mother and the Heavenly Father, and walk with the Angels of the Day and the Night, he cannot enter into the Eternal Kingdom.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And the flesh of thy body is born of the Earthly Mother, and the spirit within thee is born of the Heavenly Father.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh.
So it is with the Holy Law.
All men hear it, but know it not, for from their first breath it is with them.
But he who is born again of the Heavenly Father and the Earthly Mother, he shall hear with new ears, and see with new eyes, and the flame of the Holy Law shall be kindled within him.

And one man asked, How can these things be?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, we speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen: and ye receive not our witness.
For man is born to walk with the Angels, but instead he doth search for jewels in mud.
To him hath the Heavenly Father bestowed his inheritance, that he should build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, but man hath turned his back on his Father, and doth worship the world and its idols.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For we are all Sons of God, and in us God is glorified.
And the light which shineth around God and his children is the Light of the Holy Law.
And he who hateth the light, doth deny his Father and his Mother, who have given him birth.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16835504/Fragments-from-the-Essene-Gospel-of-John-Szekely

But then you might wonder why the early Christians found it so important to die in the name of Jesus.

[dedicate]

Jesus did not play "their" games, he did not live his life according to outdated Jewish tradition, nor did he find the things important the Jews found important/

In ancient Israel it was utmost important to know who a man's father was. Unlike the way things are today, if your father was a lawer you were considered with respect, if your father was a simple carpenter then you were given less respect. People were judged according to the stature of their parents.

Jesus had considerable fame and acknowledged as a prophet even while alive. He was always encountering people who would ask, "Who is your father?".. because this was important to the Jew to know. But Jesus knew this was not important for anybody to know,, really,, so he would say, "My father is a heavenly father"... The same father we all have. Genius.

Genius in that it did not play to the normally accepted patterns of behavior, made people think, and gave them a new way of being.

[thereisonlywe]

Facts:

1-Jesus' birth was different than other people in terms of visibility.

2-Everyone's birth is different than other spiritually, because the One always manifests itself different than Its' other manifestations.

3-Why is she called "Virgin Mary"? Because, she is a virgin. "'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is." (Quran 3:47) Therefore, no human can be Jesus' father.

4-Gabriel appeared to virgin Mary as a man in her dream. By the One's will, Jesus was born without physical interaction. How is this possible? Well today's science recently discovered that it is possible for women alone to have children. I don't know the details though, google it out if you are interested.

Well I couldn't resist and did a fast googling. It seems the father is the Mary's bone marrow :) http://docinthemachine.com/2007/04/13/allfemalebaby-2/

Love&Peace

[batou]

Repeating something over and over again doesnt make it true.

But if you put it in colors it does haha

[stopthemadness]

According to Christian Trinity, Jesus is his own father.

God the Father is the creator and giver of love. It is God experiencing love as the giver, the father figure.

God the Son is the recipient of this love. It is God experiencing love from a different angle, that of a Son receiving love from the Father, and also that of the love of a human, Jesus, for his fellow friends and humans. He loved humanity so much he died for it. In this role he is the Logos of love.

God the Spirit is the carrier of this love to all creation. It is how God connects to us all. It is God experiencing all of creation.

They are three manifestations of a single Source known as God. They are not three distinct entities. Therefore asking who is Jesus' father is like asking if your big toe is part of you. Your big toe is part of what is defined as you. Yet, alone, your big toe is not you.

Yahweh, on the other hand, stems from tribal deities. The Gnostics did not believe he was the true Father. They assigned him the role of demiurge. The True God in the sense of Father, Son & Ghost was definitely considered a different entity than Yahweh for the very reasons you pointed out. Yahweh is vindictive, jealous, and petty. That's why early Gnostic Christianity was crushed by the Romans (due to pressure from Jewish advisors). To keep the peace between Christians & Jews the Romans decided to silence the Gnostics. After all, Gnostics believed Yahweh was either evil or incompetent. That's not good if you are trying to unify different people under Roman rule.

The Logos of Love (Jesus) stemming from the Source of Love (Father) carries forth this love to all of creation (Holy Ghost).

All the Biblical stories should be interpreted metaphorically, not literally. Dionysus, Mithras, Apollo, and other Mediterranean myths are regional variations on this basic theme. Jesus, of course, is the Jewish version of this.

And all this is supposed to be interpreted personally & internally. The Jesus teachings advise humans to search within for the kingdom of God. That's why all organised Christian religions have missed the point. It's just like when Buddhists leave offerings of fruits at a statue of Buddha. They've missed the entire point!

Short answer to who is the father of Jesus ... himself.

[thereisonlywe]

And all this is supposed to be interpreted personally & internally. The Jesus teachings advise humans to search within for the kingdom of God. That's why all organised Christian religions have missed the point. It's just like when Buddhists leave offerings of fruits at a statue of Buddha. They've missed the entire point!


This is completely true. Read our post if you haven't already done so. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95427

[phildee3]

The Logos of Love (Jesus) stemming from the Source of Love (Father) carries forth this love to all of creation (Holy Ghost).

Short answer to who is the father of Jesus ... himself.



You contradict yourself.
Your first sentance says it perfectly, imo.

[drakul]

You have missed the main point. Jesus always referred to himself as -

THE SON OF MAN.

Jesus said `I AM THE SON OF MAN' over 80 times in the bible.

What did he mean by that? :confused:

Did Jesus mean the most obvious thing - that he is not the son of God but of Man? `Man' is always Capitalized. `Man' at his most highly evolved state, next to God?

It is the Bible pontiffs who added in later that Jesus was the son of god. He never said that. Except for that one time when he asked his disciples, `Who do you think I am' and they answered - `You are the Son of God'. But still Jesus did not say it himself. Strange how everyone ignores what Jesus said over and over about his parentage.

Jesus never referred to his father as Yaweh. But when he was on the cross he called out:

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Aramaic for God/Father why have you forsaken me?

And the Bible says that `The people were amazed for they did not know what he said'. You mean Jesus' fellow educated Jewish Pharisees and Saducees did not know what he said? They could not speak Aramaic?

Because Measle Weasle is right. It is two different gods, two different belief systems. Jesus was a Hellenized Caananite, from as the Bible calls it, `Galilee of the Gentiles'.

[orlibonurb]

You have missed the main point. Jesus always referred to himself as -

THE SON OF MAN.

Jesus said `I AM THE SON OF MAN' over 80 times in the bible.

What did he mean by that? :confused:

Did Jesus mean the most obvious thing - that he is not the son of God but of Man? `Man' is always Capitalized. `Man' at his most highly evolved state, next to God?

It is the Bible pontiffs who added in later that Jesus was the son of god. He never said that. Except for that one time when he asked his disciples, `Who do you think I am' and they answered - `You are the Son of God'. But still Jesus did not say it himself. Strange how everyone ignores what Jesus said over and over about his parentage.

Jesus never referred to his father as Yaweh. But when he was on the cross he called out:

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Aramaic for God/Father why have you forsaken me?

And the Bible says that `The people were amazed for they did not know what he said'. You mean Jesus' fellow educated Jewish Pharisees and Saducees did not know what he said? They could not speak Aramaic?

Because Measle Weasle is right. It is two different gods, two different belief systems. Jesus was a Hellenized Caananite, from as the Bible calls it, `Galilee of the Gentiles'.

No.


Matthew Presents Christ as KING (The Prophesied King) Key Verse: Matthew 2:2 "King of the Jews"

Mark Presents Christ as SERVANT (The Obedient Servant) Key Verse: Mark 10:45 "The Son of man came, not to be ministered unto but to minister (serve) and to give His life a ransom for many."

Luke Presents Christ as Man (The Perfect Man) Key Verse: Luke 19:10 "Son of man"

John Presents Christ as God (The Divine Son) Key Verse: John 20:31 "Son of God"



All four gospels speak of the ministry of John the Baptist.

All four gospels speak of the baptism of Jesus.

All four gospels speak of the feeding of the 5000.

All four gospels speak of Peter's denial of the Lord.

All four gospels speak of the arrest and trials of Jesus.

All four gospels speak of the crucifixion of Jesus.

All four gospels speak of the resurrection of Jesus.



They all point to that ONE, BLESSED PERSON the LORD JESUS CHRIST, the SAVIOUR, the SON OF GOD! We need to see all four Gospels together, just as you would look at the four photos of your pen pal to better see what that one person really looks like.




Question: "What does it mean that Jesus is the Son of Man?"

Answer: Jesus is referred to as the “Son of Man” 88 times in the New Testament. A first meaning of the phrase “Son of Man” is as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel 7:13-14, “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” The description “Son of Man” was a Messianic title. Jesus is the One who was given dominion and glory and a kingdom. When Jesus used this phrase, He was assigning the Son of Man prophecy to Himself. The Jews of that era would have been intimately familiar with the phrase and to whom it referred. Jesus was proclaiming Himself as the Messiah.

A second meaning of the phrase “Son of Man” is that Jesus was truly a human being. God called the prophet Ezekiel “son of man” 93 times. God was simply calling Ezekiel a human being. A son of a man is a man. Jesus was fully God (John 1:1), but He was also a human being (John 1:14). First John 4:2 tells us, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.” Yes, Jesus was the Son of God—He was in His essence God. Yes, Jesus was also the Son of Man—He was in His essence a human being. In summary, the phrase “Son of Man” indicates that Jesus is the Messiah and that He is truly a human being.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

[stopthemadness]

You contradict yourself.
Your first sentance says it perfectly, imo.

I'm not a Christian. I've simply spent many hours trying to figure out the Christian Trinity. Humans try to put God into human terms. That's where the problem is. The Trinity does not refer to three discrete entities. It refers to three aspects of God. I don't see the contradiction.

[stopthemadness]

You have missed the main point. Jesus always referred to himself as -

THE SON OF MAN.

Jesus said `I AM THE SON OF MAN' over 80 times in the bible.

What did he mean by that? :confused:

Did Jesus mean the most obvious thing - that he is not the son of God but of Man? `Man' is always Capitalized. `Man' at his most highly evolved state, next to God?

It is the Bible pontiffs who added in later that Jesus was the son of god. He never said that. Except for that one time when he asked his disciples, `Who do you think I am' and they answered - `You are the Son of God'. But still Jesus did not say it himself. Strange how everyone ignores what Jesus said over and over about his parentage.

Jesus never referred to his father as Yaweh. But when he was on the cross he called out:

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Aramaic for God/Father why have you forsaken me?

And the Bible says that `The people were amazed for they did not know what he said'. You mean Jesus' fellow educated Jewish Pharisees and Saducees did not know what he said? They could not speak Aramaic?

Because Measle Weasle is right. It is two different gods, two different belief systems. Jesus was a Hellenized Caananite, from as the Bible calls it, `Galilee of the Gentiles'.

There is not one Bible. It has been filtered and edited beyond recognition. I hold Jesus as the Logos of Love, not as an actual human who walked in Palestine (the land now stolen by the false Jews predicted by said Bibles).

[drakul]

No.

Matthew Presents Christ as KING (The Prophesied King) Key Verse: Matthew 2:2 "King of the Jews"

Mark Presents Christ as SERVANT (The Obedient Servant) Key Verse: Mark 10:45 "The Son of man came, not to be ministered unto but to minister (serve) and to give His life a ransom for many."

Luke Presents Christ as Man (The Perfect Man) Key Verse: Luke 19:10 "Son of man"

John Presents Christ as God (The Divine Son) Key Verse: John 20:31 "Son of God"



Lets start with Mathew. You say Mathew PRESENTS Jesus as a King of the Jews. BUT what does Jesus say about himself? A few quotes:

Matthew 9:5,6 - 'Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...' Then he said to the paralytic, 'Get up, take your mat and go home.'

Matthew 12:8 - 'For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.'

Matthew 12:40 - 'For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'

Matthew 13:41 - 'The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.'

Matthew 16:13-17 - When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, 'Who do people say the Son of Man is?' They replied, 'Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.'

'But what about you?' he asked. 'Who do you say I am?' Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God.'

Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.'

Matthew 17:9 - As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, 'Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.'

Matthew 17:22,23 - When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.' And the disciples were filled with grief.

Matthew 20:18,19 - 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!'

Matthew 20:28 - '...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.'

Matthew 26:2 - 'As you know, the Passover is two days away - and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.'

Matthew 26:45 - Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, 'Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.'

In fact Jesus claims to be the SON OF MAN more times in Mathew than in any of the other gospels except Luke:


Matthew
8:20 9:5,6 10:23 11:19 12:8
12:32 12:40 13:37 13:41 16:13-17
16:27 16:28 17:9 17:12 17:22,23
19:28 20:18,19 20:28 24:27 24:30 x2
24:37 24:39 24:44 25:31 26:2
26:24 x2 26:45 26:64

Mark
2:10 2:28 8:31 8:38 9:9
9:12 9:31 10:33,34 10:45 13:26
14:21 x2 14:41 14:62

Luke
5:24 6:5 6:22 7:34 9:22
9:26 9:44 9:58 11:30 12:8
12:10 12:40 17:22 17:24 17:26
17:30 18:8 18:31-33 19:10 21:27
21:36 22:22 22:48 22:69 24:7

John
1:51 3:13 3:14 5:27 6:27
6:53 6:62 8:28 9:35-38 12:23
12:34 x2 13:31


http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/sonofman.htm

[orlibonurb]

@ drakul, re-read post #32.



There is not one Bible. It has been filtered and edited beyond recognition. I hold Jesus as the Logos of Love, not as an actual human who walked in Palestine (the land now stolen by the false Jews predicted by said Bibles).

Unbelievable false statement.

Total Onslaught - 213B - Battle of the Bibles.avi
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8000050340026696207


What happens is that we get taken out key verses in modern PERversions of the Bible. Verses which has to do with sin, with the deity of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) and several others. Edited beyond recognition is false as you can easily see in the lecture above.


Now, I find it funny how we can talk about any person in human history, but when it gets to Jesus, oh no no no nooooooo. No way Jesus was who He said He was right. No way the Jesus of the Bible (the real history of Jesus) is real. "I'll hold Jesus the way I prefer instead" - as if what we "prefer" or "choose" has any impact on the truth.


Well, unfortunatly, sounds like you'll have to die in your sins and see for yourself. What a bad move when you can simply ask, even if it's for a sign only.

Romans {6:23} For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[phildee3]

Jesus is the son of Man.

The logos, which is in Jesus, is the Son of God.

Logos = word, or will,

"born of the Father before all ages - God from God."

[measle_weasel]

"I'll hold Jesus the way I prefer instead" - as if what we "prefer" or "choose" has any impact on the truth.

Thats so very true, Orli.

Now if only you could apply that statement to yourself, too, and realize that your absolute "truth" is really just your personal preference, as I write about in the blue link in my sig, things would be so much better :)

[michael christopher]

I'm not a Christian. I've simply spent many hours trying to figure out the Christian Trinity. Humans try to put God into human terms. That's where the problem is. The Trinity does not refer to three discrete entities. It refers to three aspects of God. I don't see the contradiction.

Aspects are the same things as entities in a universe where God is omniscient.

Omniscience means everything that does and could possibly exist is God. Which means that Apollo is an aspect of the omniscient God, Odin is an aspect of the omniscient God, Thor, Loki, Satan, Lucifer, Venus, Enki, Enlil, Yahweh, Osiris, blah blah blah are all aspects of an omniscient God.

In fact, the word "aspect" used to be used to describe different spirits in ancient Greek/Roman magic. An aspect is an archetype, which is an over-arching spiritual concept. So when Christians worship three aspects of God, they are basically worshiping three different beings. If they want to worship the one, true omniscient God, then they should ONLY worship the singularity, and not the three aspects of it which they've been trained to worship. This is why Christianity is merely veiled paganism.

[drakul]

Aspects are the same things as entities in a universe where God is omniscient.

Omniscience means everything that does and could possibly exist is God. Which means that Apollo is an aspect of the omniscient God, Odin is an aspect of the omniscient God, Thor, Loki, Satan, Lucifer, Venus, Enki, Enlil, Yahweh, Osiris, blah blah blah are all aspects of an omniscient God.

In fact, the word "aspect" used to be used to describe different spirits in ancient Greek/Roman magic. An aspect is an archetype, which is an over-arching spiritual concept. So when Christians worship three aspects of God, they are basically worshiping three different beings. If they want to worship the one, true omniscient God, then they should ONLY worship the singularity, and not the three aspects of it which they've been trained to worship. This is why Christianity is merely veiled paganism.


I strongly disagree that `Christianity is merely veiled paganism'. Especially regarding paganism which required blood sacrifice.

However I do have a problem with the Trinity:

1. The PTB (St Paul and his minions) cut the FEMININE out of the Trinity. It should be Father, Mother, Child. Not Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Those who molded Christianity after Jesus made it into an all male bastion and completely cut women out of the priesthood.

2. The concept of the Trinity predates Christianity. Slavs worshipped the trinity their 3 headed god was TRIGLAV. The three-headed aspect of God(s) is all over paganism.

[orlibonurb]

Thats so very true, Orli.

Now if only you could apply that statement to yourself, too, and realize that your absolute "truth" is really just your personal preference, as I write about in the blue link in my sig, things would be so much better :)

No, thank you brother.

The real Jesus as we find in the Bible took away all my sins by the powerful healing of the Holy Spirit.


John {1:29} The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


It is not "my" truth. I have nothing to do with truth. Truth by definition is exclusive and it is also intolerant, meaning everything else is false. Truth is what it is and it is waiting for everyone to seek / find it.

In a race car, the winner will be one and only one. The rest will fall into a different category.

The ultimate truth has been with us from day 1. Now if you want to die in your sins, that is a different question.

Romans {6:23} For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is the problem of not knowing / being aware of the truth ?! Obviously you will fall into any other category, you'll be just "another one" who will fall into the "broad way",

Matthew {7:13} Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {7:14} Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[measle_weasel]

No, thank you brother.

The real Jesus as we find in the Bible took away all my sins by the powerful healing of the Holy Spirit.

John {1:29} The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

I find it curious how you admit the bible has been altered, yet still rely on it to tell you what to believe. Seems your faith is in the men who have altered the bible, and not Jesus.

It is not "my" truth. I have nothing to do with truth. Truth by definition is exclusive and it is also intolerant, meaning everything else is false. Truth is what it is and it is waiting for everyone to seek / find it.

In a race car, the winner will be one and only one. The rest will fall into a different category.

The ultimate truth has been with us from day 1.

I agree with this. Thats called objective truth. The problem is, neither you nor I can *know* what that objective truth is, because if by chance we stumble upon it, we change its image by viewing it, turning it into our own subjective truth.

But you believe you personally are not applying your own subjectivity to what you believe is the objective truth. Thats naive to think such. If youd stop Crimestopping for like 5 minutes and thought about it, youd realize such a thing without to much effort, but you are to afraid that the divine Thought Police are going to come after you and send you to hell if you start expanding your understanding and knowledge beyond your indoctrination.

What is the problem of not knowing / being aware of the truth ?! Obviously you will fall into any other category, you'll be just "another one" who will fall into the "broad way",

Its kind of sad how centophobic fanatical christians are. Thats the fear of new ideas, btw.

All this fear you so called "Christians" have is kinda strange, considering how nice a guy Jesus was. I can understand being scared of some ego maniac like Jehovah, but Jesus? You really think Jesus will, or allow, you to be tortured for all eternity because you didnt "get it right" the very first try? That doesnt sound like Jesus at all.

But hey... maybe Im just using a bit to much common sense :rolleyes:

[orlibonurb]

I agree with this. Thats called objective truth. The problem is, neither you nor I can *know* what that objective truth is, because if by chance we stumble upon it, we change its image by viewing it, turning it into our own subjective truth.


"Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance." - W Clement Stone


I find it curious how you admit the bible has been altered, yet still rely on it to tell you what to believe. Seems your faith is in the men who have altered the bible, and not Jesus.



We have verses and key words taken out, and if those are taken out it means we know what is the true Word of God, which is the King James 1611 Bible or the Geneva Bible, not these modern perversions. If you have two big peaces of meat and I take a little bit out from one of them, you still have meat. If you want the whole thing, pick the one which is untouched !!

Total Onslaught - 213B - Battle of the Bibles.avi
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8000050340026696207

In any case, the message of salvation is there, and Jesus still saves anyone who wishes to be saved from SIN. It's what happens to people's lives (!!!) which obviously tells us the truth - and we still have Bible prophecy with God calling out the "end" from the beggining.

Its kind of sad how centophobic fanatical christians are. Thats the fear of new ideas, btw.

All this fear you so called "Christians" have is kinda strange, considering how nice a guy Jesus was.

Fear, are you kidding me ?! LOL. I don't even fear death my brother. Fear hahaha, oh man, I'm shaking on my boots by knowing I'm saved and going to Heaven !!! Specially when we can know with 100% security - I'm going to go hide under the bed right now.


As for new ideas, doesn't sound like you know your real history,

Ecclesiastes {1:9} The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

History keeps repeating itself, it's a hunger for power. Same old doctrines, same old belief systems, same old lies, same old sinful lifestyles and rebellion towards God from humanity.

[thereisonlywe]

From a book that has been sent by the One to correct altered texts in the Bible, so that believers have a way of reaching truth:

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (Quran 4:171)

Love&Peace

[orlibonurb]

From a book that has been sent by the One to correct altered texts in the Bible, so that believers have a way of reaching truth:

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (Quran 4:171)

Love&Peace

There is no truth whatsoever in pagan religions (ie. Islam). The truth is Jesus which the Koran / Islam also denies (surprise, surprise), leading more and more people to hell. Satan doesn't care how he gets you there as long as he gets you there. If it's done via false religions, then so be it.



Now, this is straight from major Enclycopedias (and other sources) so you don't think I'm quoting from some "anti-Islam" or "pro-Christian" source.


"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).



"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa" - (Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 85).



The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic. - (There is an interesting discussion of the origins of Allah, in "Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190).



Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326, T & T Clark, states:

'"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their [Arabs'] peculiar God. '



According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:

'"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel' - (Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979).



For those who find it hard to believe that Allah was a pagan name for a peculiar pagan Arabian deity in pre-Islamic times, the following quotations may be helpful:

"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" - (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643).



"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).



"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:406, ed. Gibb).



"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" - Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971).



"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad" - (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983).



"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" - (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, I:326, Hastings).



To the testimony of the above standard reference works, we add those of such scholars as Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University who has stated:

"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" - (The Bible and Islam: or, The Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p. 102).



Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments:

"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" - (The Call of the Minaret, New York: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 31).



"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god." In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" - (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. vii. Also see his article, "Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40).



Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:

"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" - (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York, Barrons, 1987, p. 28).



According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Ba-al, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars - (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabruck: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p. 36).




Astral Religions

In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars such as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah! - (Islam, p. 7).

The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to other titles that could be given to him.

Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called "the daughters of Allah." These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.

The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities.

"Along with Allah, however, they worshipped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Al-lah" - (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:61)".


The cult of the crescent moon

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/images/symbols/crescent-200.gif

Praying Toward Mecca

An Allah idol was set up at the Kebah along with all the other idols. The pagans prayed toward Mecca and the Kabah because that is where their gods were stationed.

It only made sense to them to face in the direction of their god and then pray. Since the idol of their moon god, Allah, was at Mecca, they prayed toward Mecca.

The worship of the moon god extended far beyond the Allah-worship in Arabia. The entire fertile crescent was involved in the worship of the moon.

This, in part, explains the early success of Islam among Arab groups that traditionally had worshiped the moon god.

The use of the crescent moon as the symbol for Islam which is placed on the flags of Islamic nations and on the top of mosques and minarets is a throwback to the days when Allah was worshiped as the moon god in Mecca.

While this may come as a surprise to many Christians who have wrongly assumed that Allah was simply another name for the God of the Bible, educated Muslims generally understand this point.


Sîn: Moon god in 2100 BC

"Sin.—The moon-god occupied the chief place in the astral triad. Its other two members, Shamash the sun and Ishtar the planet Venus, were his children. Thus it was, in effect, from the night that light had emerged....In his physical aspect Sin—who was venerated at Ur under the name of Nannar—was an old man with along beard the color of lapis-lazuli. He normally wore a turban. Every evening he got into his barque—which to mortals appeared in the form of a brilliant crescent moon—and navigated the vast spaces of the nocturnal sky. Some people, however, believed that the luminous crescent was Sin’s weapon. But one day the crescent gave way to a disk which stood out in the sky like a gleaming crown. There could be no doubt that this was the god’s own crown; and then Sin was called "Lord of the Diadem". These successive and regular transformations lent Sin a certain mystery. For this reason he was considered to be ‘He whose deep heart no god can penetrate’... Sin was also full of wisdom. At the end of every month the gods came to consult them and he made decisions for them...His wife was Ningal, ‘the great Lady’. He was the father not only of Shamash and Ishtar but also of a son Nusku, the god fire." - (Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, 1960, p 54-56)

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-babylonian-moon.gif
Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the moon-god. is shown to the right. Note the presence of the crescent moon on the Babylonian moon-god.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-babylonian-2100bc-nannar.jpg
Nannar with the 'three muses' and Eternally Fruiting Orb - Ur-Nammu (Maspero 655)


Moon Gods and Moon Goddesses
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/polytheisticreligions/tp/MoonGods.htm

[measle_weasel]

"Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance." - W Clement Stone

So you are agreeing with me?

We have verses and key words taken out, and if those are taken out it means we know what is the true Word of God, which is the King James 1611 Bible or the Geneva Bible, not these modern perversions.

Show me your original 1611 KJV bible with no reissuances, written in middle english. If you cant, then you are reading a perversion of the original KJV bible.

Once you do that, I have more requests. But Im guessing you wont be able to do the above.

Fear, are you kidding me ?! LOL. I don't even fear death my brother. Fear hahaha, oh man, I'm shaking on my boots by knowing I'm saved and going to Heaven !!! Specially when we can know with 100% security !

You are scared to consider new ideas. Thats why you selectively choose only bits and pieces of my texts to respond to with your own actual thoughts and words. The rest you probably just glance over, find some bible verse and cut and paste, then delete my text from your mind to stop any potential thought crime. Youre pretty transparent, honestly.

As for new ideas, doesn't sound like you know your real history,

[B]Ecclesiastes {1:9}...

I LOLed. You really think the bible is an accurate history book? Even if it was, history books are extremely prone to manipulation to exploit present peoples perceptions of the past, thus shaping the future in a way the manipulators want.

Anyway, show me that original 1611 KJV bible written in middle english that you keep going on about.

[orlibonurb]

Why don't you get yourself a KJV1611 Bible ?????

You can even download it online, google for it.


and by the way, what NEW ideas ? lol

thus shaping the future in a way the manipulators want.


Everything the Word of God said it would happen in our specific generation is happening.

. 1 world government

. 1 world religion

. 1 world economy (heading towards a cashless society to introduce the mark of the beast)

. Israel's reborn as a nation (1948), which would consequently mark the beggining of the end times

. Explosion of knowledge in the "end times".

. An increase in earthquakes, famines and pestilences.

. Society going sinful like in the days of noah. Hit a prison or a hospital and see the consequences of sin. Better yet, just turn on your TV if you have one.

. And more


but the whole purpose of Bible prophecy (the Word of God is ~25% prophetic by the way) is,

John {13:19} Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he. ]

As for knowing if it's really true or not, it all boils down to.

1. Repent of your sins.

2. Call out for Jesus.

and then you'll know / see what will happen to your life. Or you can choose to die in your sins and then see for yourself.

[orlibonurb]

As I said thou, you can know who the living God (Jesus) is with 100% security.

Just as you know 1+1 is 2. There is no doubts about it. You don't wake up one day thinking it might be 1.9 or 2.1.

What's the purpose of knowing something if you can't know it for the absolute it is. Then it is all in vain, it is a mindset of "I hope it is". Then yes, you live in a prison, you live in fear, you live in vain hope.

Originally Posted by measle_weasel
I agree with this. Thats called objective truth. The problem is, neither you nor I can *know* what that objective truth is, because if by chance we stumble upon it, we change its image by viewing it, turning it into our own subjective truth.

So, no. Obviously I don't agree with you and that should be obvious by the quote I posted. Now do many people stumble upon the truth and do not recognize it ? Absolutely.

Matthew {22:14} For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

I don't "turn truth to my understanding". I turn my understanding to the truth. There's a world of difference between these two.

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1987/truth.jpg

[notthisshitagain]

I find it curious how you admit the bible has been altered, yet still rely on it to tell you what to believe.

I think the term you're looking for is "selective reading".

[measle_weasel]

I think the term you're looking for is "selective reading".


A "christian"? Selectively reading only the passages that suit his own personal beliefs?!

NO WAI!

[notthisshitagain]

A "christian"? Selectively reading only the passages that suit his own personal beliefs?!

NO WAI!


I know! It's like, TOTALLY unbelievable! Hell, I can't believe it's not butter!

[measle_weasel]

Why don't you get yourself a KJV1611 Bible ?????

Youre so predictable.

Show me YOUR, *ORIGINAL COPY*, written in *MIDDLE ENGLISH*, of the KJV of the bible

If you dont have one, you are reading a, as you like to call it, "PERversion", and basing everything you believe on that "PERversion".

[phildee3]

We have verses and key words taken out, and if those are taken out it means we know what is the true Word of God, which is the King James 1611 Bible or the Geneva Bible, not these modern perversions.



1611 is modern in terms of Christianity. That's only 400 years out of 2,000.

[michael christopher]

You know what really amuses me is that Orli assumes that the King James Bible is even correct. Why does he think it is? Does he know anything about King James? Something tells me he doesn't.

Instructions were given to the translators that were intended to limit the Puritan influence on this new translation. The Bishop of London added a qualification that the translators would add no marginal notes (which had been an issue in the Geneva Bible). King James cited two passages in the Geneva translation where he found the marginal notes offensive:[25] Exodus 1:17, where the Geneva Bible had commended the example of civil disobedience showed by the Hebrew midwives, and also II Chronicles 15:16, where the Geneva Bible had criticized King Asa for not having executed his idolatrous grandmother, Queen Maachah. Further, the King gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology of the Church of England. Certain Greek and Hebrew words were to be translated in a manner that reflected the traditional usage of the church. For example, old ecclesiastical words such as the word "church" were to be retained and not to be translated as "congregation". The new translation would reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and traditional beliefs about ordained clergy.

Authorized King James Version - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The texts were changed to conform to English politics! Anyone who believes the King James Bible is the word of God is a MORON.

[kasalt]

We have verses and key words taken out, and if those are taken out it means we know what is the true Word of God, which is the King James 1611 Bible or the Geneva Bible, not these modern perversions.

In 1769 the Oxford University Press published an edition of the King James version in which many small changes were made. These changes were of five kinds: 1. Greater and more regular use of italics; 2. minor changes in the text; 3. the adoption of modern spelling; 4. changes in the marginal notes and references; and, 5. correction of printers' errors. This edition soon came to be known as "The Oxford Standard" edition, because it was widely accepted as a standard text by commentators and other publishers. The editions of the King James version published in our century generally reproduce this Oxford edition of 1769, with or without the marginal notes. The following information is given so that the reader may gain an accurate impression of how far the modern editions differ from the original King James version of 1611.

Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon10.html

The point is that even your "1611" King James Version has been edited and changed since 1611.

[michael christopher]

In 1769 the Oxford University Press published an edition of the King James version in which many small changes were made. These changes were of five kinds: 1. Greater and more regular use of italics; 2. minor changes in the text; 3. the adoption of modern spelling; 4. changes in the marginal notes and references; and, 5. correction of printers' errors. This edition soon came to be known as "The Oxford Standard" edition, because it was widely accepted as a standard text by commentators and other publishers. The editions of the King James version published in our century generally reproduce this Oxford edition of 1769, with or without the marginal notes. The following information is given so that the reader may gain an accurate impression of how far the modern editions differ from the original King James version of 1611.

Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon10.html

The point is that even your "1611" King James Version has been edited and changed since 1611.

It wouldn't matter if we had the pure 1611 version around anyway, as it's clearly stated in historical records that King James objected to certain passages in the Bible and demanded that the scriptures be changed in order to match the dogma of the Church of England. So much for God protecting the legitimacy of the Bible.

Also, don't you find it funny that in spite of the fact that Christ lived supposedly around the time of 0 AD, an "infallible" edition didn't even get printed until 1611? You can't reason with unreasonable people, however. They are immune to logic. Orli doesn't think too far ahead when he makes statements like "The 1611 King James Bible is the one true word of God." That doesn't even make sense unless God is a huge procrastinator.

[drakul]

It wouldn't matter if we had the pure 1611 version around anyway, as it's clearly stated in historical records that King James objected to certain passages in the Bible and demanded that the scriptures be changed in order to match the dogma of the Church of England. So much for God protecting the legitimacy of the Bible.

Also, don't you find it funny that in spite of the fact that Christ lived supposedly around the time of 0 AD, an "infallible" edition didn't even get printed until 1611? You can't reason with unreasonable people, however. They are immune to logic. Orli doesn't think too far ahead when he makes statements like "The 1611 King James Bible is the one true word of God." That doesn't even make sense unless God is a huge procrastinator.

KJV is `Infallible' according to the Vatican. Not to the Eastern Orthodox Church which has Greek Orthodox Bibles dating back to 350AD - Codex Sinaiticus. Today's Greek Orthodox Bible is written in classical Greek and is almost unchanged from the Codex Sinaiticus.

The world's oldest known copy of the complete bible (in bound book form), dating from 300-350 AD, is the Codex Sinaiticus. It is a translation from Hebrew and Greek manuscripts into an all Greek bible. It is believed that it may be one of 50 original bibles that the Emperor Constantine commissioned after converting the Eastern Roman Empire to Christianity. It was discovered at the Monastery of St. Catherine in Sinai, Egypt, which was built on what is traditionally believed to be the site of Moses' burning bush.
Although most of the Old Testament text has been destroyed, the New Testament text has survived and is in general agreement with the text used to establish the KJV of the bible.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/14282


Codex Sinaiticus is in `General agreement with KJV' of the NT? I would sure love to see a copy of the Codex Sinaiticus NT translated to English. I heard they are working on one but are calling it a `study guide' and are using the KJV as reference. Obviously they don't the two Bibles to be out of sync. Even the difference of one word could upset some big applecarts. Such as: You have made my father's house into a house of thieves - substitute `murderers' for thieves and you have the specter of Jesus charging into the temple on Passover to stop a human sacrifice.

[michael christopher]

KJV is `Infallible' according to the Vatican. Not to the Eastern Orthodox Church which has Greek Orthodox Bibles dating back to 350AD - Codex Sinaiticus. Today's Greek Orthodox Bible is written in classical Greek and is almost unchanged from the Codex Sinaiticus.

Wrong. It is also infallible according to Orli. In fact, for anyone arrogant enough to declare some pieces of paper and ink "the word of God," they would also have to believe that "word of God" is infallible or it wouldn't be the "word of God" anymore.

[1776]

Wrong. It is also infallible according to Orli. In fact, for anyone arrogant enough to declare some pieces of paper and ink "the word of God," they would also have to believe that "word of God" is infallible or it wouldn't be the "word of God" anymore.

Exactly.

According to 'Christians' all over the world, including myself as well.

Believing the Word of God is far from arrogant!

Peace&Love
God bless

[freeman craig]

jesus's father was joseph. He was a master of the craft which doesnt mean carpenter, he was probably related to mary and they would of both had the royal eygptian bloodline of king david.

[kasalt]

According to 'Christians' all over the world, including myself as well.

Believing the Word of God is far from arrogant!

Have a look at this list of translation errors in the King James Version:

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html

[1776]

jesus's father was joseph. He was a master of the craft which doesnt mean carpenter, he was probably related to mary and they would of both had the royal eygptian bloodline of king david.

Jesus' father was Himself.

That's the long and short of it.

Peace&Love
God bless

[phildee3]

Jesus' father was Himself.



The logos is an aspect of source - the active principle.

[michael christopher]

Exactly.

According to 'Christians' all over the world, including myself as well.

Believing the Word of God is far from arrogant!

Peace&Love
God bless

Every translation of the Bible you will ever find can be proven to be corrupted by one stupid political council or another. Let me guess, you a KJVer? Ignoring all of the political manipulations made by King James' demand?

You effectively just put your fingers in your ears and went "la la la la la la."

[freeman craig]

Jesus' father was Himself.

That's the long and short of it.

Peace&Love
God bless

:rolleyes:

[orlibonurb]

In 1769 the Oxford University Press published an edition of the King James version in which many small changes were made. These changes were of five kinds: 1. Greater and more regular use of italics; 2. minor changes in the text; 3. the adoption of modern spelling; 4. changes in the marginal notes and references; and, 5. correction of printers' errors. This edition soon came to be known as "The Oxford Standard" edition, because it was widely accepted as a standard text by commentators and other publishers. The editions of the King James version published in our century generally reproduce this Oxford edition of 1769, with or without the marginal notes. The following information is given so that the reader may gain an accurate impression of how far the modern editions differ from the original King James version of 1611.

Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon10.html

The point is that even your "1611" King James Version has been edited and changed since 1611.

That's why you always have the Strong's Concordance. So, any doubt you just use the SC's to see the meaning in the original Aramaic, Greek & Hebrew.

[michael christopher]

That's why you always have the Strong's Concordance. So, any doubt you just use the SC's to see the meaning in the original Aramaic, Greek & Hebrew.

Why don't you respond to the fact that it's part of the undisputed historical record that King James was offended by certain passages and refused to allow the publication of the KJV unless said offending passages were changed to be in concordance with the Church of England's rules and regulations? :) Do you believe by some weird theory that King James was a prophet and delegate of God and that he knew that the Church of England had the correct interpretation in spite of their being no revelation as such and in spite of his never making such a claim?

[nectars]

just who is jesus' father?

I Am. :D

[stopthemadness]

Jesus' father was Himself.

That's the long and short of it.

Peace&Love
God bless

Holy smokes! Uncle Sam is Baphomet. He even has a goat-tee. I never realised that.

[diamond dogs]

Here is the most plausible version that I have heard..I am about to read Cleopatra to Christ soon to evaluate the research but if 'Thoth..architect of the universe' another Ellis book is anything to go by it shouldn't be far off the mark imo

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rellis2.htm

[measle_weasel]

That's why you always have the Strong's Concordance. So, any doubt you just use the SC's to see the meaning in the original Aramaic, Greek & Hebrew.

So wheres that original KJV bible of yours, printed 400 years ago in middle english that I asked you to show us?

By your silence you are admitting to the fact that you are gathering all your information from a "PERversion" of the bible you claim is divinely inspired. Even as unlikely as that is, you are reading an edited "PERversion" of it.

Others have also shown you how your precious KJV bible, even in its original form, was obviously manipulated by the powers at that time.

[freeman craig]

Here is the most plausible version that I have heard..I am about to read Cleopatra to Christ soon to evaluate the research but if 'Thoth..architect of the universe' another Ellis book is anything to go by it shouldn't be far off the mark imo

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rellis2.htm

+1 diamond dogs i would recommend anyone actually interested in finding out the truth to watch the interview and buy the book aswell

[pri01]

Here is the most plausible version that I have heard..I am about to read Cleopatra to Christ soon to evaluate the research but if 'Thoth..architect of the universe' another Ellis book is anything to go by it shouldn't be far off the mark imo

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rellis2.htm

I'd agree diamond dog. The universe is clearly an object of intelligent design and there has to be an architect of some sort. Jesus is the sun of god. That is, god is a creator or architect.

Thoth is the god of knowledge and science so in my understanding qualifies as a creator, and an architect.

I've read this book (from Ralph Ellis) but I have also read the book "How we were made", available from DI book shop. The mathmatical relevance to atoms, elements, molecules to greater/larger structures is astounding.

[diamond dogs]

I'd agree diamond dog. The universe is clearly an object of intelligent design and there has to be an architect of some sort. Jesus is the sun of god. That is, god is a creator or architect.

Thoth is the god of knowledge and science so in my understanding qualifies as a creator, and an architect.

I've read this book (from Ralph Ellis) but I have also read the book "How we were made", available from DI book shop. The mathmatical relevance to atoms, elements, molecules to greater/larger structures is astounding.

Yes except Jesus 'Christ' (King) was a Pharoe prince descended from Cleopatra V11 he was royal bloodline (I heard this from a different source quoting ancient Welsh texts) so when you lose the image of this son of God it does make sense. I believe Jesus was Illuminati bloodline for sure.

[orlibonurb]

I believe Jesus was Illuminati bloodline for sure.


hahahahaha

PRICELESS


conscious "NEW AGE MOVEMENT" media network.com

Great stuff !

[phildee3]

Yes except Jesus 'Christ' (King) was a Pharoe prince descended from Cleopatra V11 he was royal bloodline (I heard this from a different source quoting ancient Welsh texts) so when you lose the image of this son of God it does make sense. I believe Jesus was Illuminati bloodline for sure.

He was, yes.
But when the logos (the "son of God") entered into him, it overcame his Jewish/reptilian, physical self.

This is the basis of the forgiveness teaching.
Nobody is beyond redemption.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Jesus' "Father" is the Ein Sof.

QED:
Jesus' "Father" is not Yahweh!!!

Any other contenders besides Ayn Soph, folks?

This topic arose in another thread of mine, and I believe its a large enough topic to warrant its own thread.

Just WHO IS Jesus' Father?

Jesus, a man of peace and love, forgiveness and mercy, was truly a great man who taught those who would listen to him exactly how to live just as He did. But contrasting this great entity, whatever He was, to Jehovah (god of the OT, war and jealously, and other not nice things), who "Christianity" calls His Father, the open minded individual starts to notice that somethings are just not adding up.

From this point Ill preface that I am not a bible scholar, and do not have instantaneous recall of every single relevant passage. And that is partly why I make this thread, to get the perspective of those who are bible scholars, at least compared to me. Ill also say that as I believe most of the bible to be heavily edited and most messages to be corrupted in the interests of serving Rome, that to me this is more of a thought exercise, rather than a debate over what is the absolute truth, and what is not.

My first question pertaining to the original question at hand, is: Did Jesus ever actually state that His Father was Jehovah/Yahweh? From my knowledge of the gospels, I have no recollection of a passage where Jesus states the actual name of His Father, though it would not suprise if there was such a passage. I am more familer with Him refering to God as "My Father", "The One who sent Me", etc. Assuming that there is some verse where Jesus does say that Jehovah is who He is refering to, what is the general ratio of Jesus referencing a specific name, as opposed to titles? Do you believe that if there is a very low ratio, that Jehovah was simply switched in with one of the non-descript titles Jesus uses for God, during the minimum 1300 year (Council of Nicea to first KJV (yes I know its heavily edited as well) editing process of the bible?

Secondly, assuming that there are actual references, as far as can be told, in the bible that Jesus proclaims Jehovah to be His Father, it just doesnt make sense how something so wonderous can come from something so horrendous. The official story is akin to putting a huge load of poo in the microwave, hitting the 30 second button, and getting a gigantic, shining, perfect diamond as a result.

Jesus seems to be the polar opposite of Jehovah, which calls into question why He would ask you to venerate such a horrible entity, and why He would give him such credit and praise.

Jesus personifies peace, Jehovah, war. Jesus commands to love thy enemy, Jehovah tells you to go murder them down to the last child. Jesus promises intangible rewards (at least on this plane) to his followers and to get yourself out of the materialist mindset, Jehovah promised land and worldy riches to his (maybe Jehovah has fulfilled that promise to his "chosen"?). Whatever Jesus said, it was pretty much at odds with the precedent that Jehovah set. In fact, I recall some bible passage where Jesus pretty clearly states that His law is the new law, and His teachings overturn the spiteful and hate filled teachings of this so called "god" named Jehovah (Ill admit that I might have slightly embellished the wording on that paraphrase, but the idea remains the same).

Also, Jesus somewhere says He is the gateway to the Father, paraphrased. Why would someone put such a magnificent gateway onto what must be a horrible little (or maybe quite large) hovel infested with jealousy, wrath, and servitude? I guess it would work as a pretty good practical joke, but I dont believe Jesus to be Loki, so I dismiss such an idea.

These points taken into account, just WHO IS Jesus' Father? Surely it cant be Jehovah, who it seems is more akin to Satan than to the actual Creator, and surely Jesus and Jehovah cannot be "one" as the bible wants you to believe.

Jesus says:(Im betting that Jesus aint referencing Jehovah with the great commandment)

Proxy for Jehovah says: (Jehovah, god of holocausts, too.)

I think my stance on this question is clear. Whats yours?


You, phil and kasalt are anti-semites and are willfully lying and misrepresenting the Book of Yahweh, Yahweh and Yahshua Messiah.

You present an Algebraic question and neglect to provide correct values for any relevant integers. EPIC FAIL Ask: Who is Yahshuas' Father?

Yahweh, anyone who says different is either very ignorant and needs to do more research, or they are willfully lying. Either way an absence of Truth, Light and Love.

This is a disingenuously coy example of a classic antisemitic screed: Anti Jewish use of Jewish Materiel.

In Search Of The True Savior
http://www.yahweh.com/PWMags/DefaultPW12_2004.htm

EXPOSING THE LAME “NAME EXCUSE”
http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/?page=the_lame_name_excuse

True Name Teachings
http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/true_name_teachings/?page=home&type=1

Editorial:
WHAT DID YAHSHUA CALL HIS FATHER?
By Rabbi/Brother Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky
http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Editorials/?page=what_did_yahshua_call_his_father

Must Read for all Pagans/Heathens
Do You Know Him by Name?
The Name of the Father and the Son
http://www.walkinthelight.ca/Do_you_know_him_by_name.htm


There is no doubt, this is not an ambiguous subject.It has had more pressure applied to it then any other topic has.

measel, you completely ignored the over 1,000 citations of the Tanach/ot that Yahshua haMessiah and the Apostles make.

You never considered this:

"OUR LORD’S VIEW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT"
http://www.the-highway.com/Scripture_Wenham.html


There are many who profess that they would be perfectly willing to accept our Lord’s teaching about the Bible, if only they could know for certain what that teaching was. But the accumulated errors of translation, of oral tradition, and of scribal transmission, leave them — they say — quite uncertain as to what He did teach. Taking refuge behind this belief, they do not grapple seriously with the Gospel evidence, and they feel free to build their theology with a view of Scripture different from that which ordinary historical investigation shows to have been taught by Christ. But such an attitude conceals a dishonesty, which, though unconscious, is very real. For only the most extreme radical sceptic has any justification for professing not to know what Jesus taught. The evidence is clear: To Christ the Old Testament was true, authoritative, inspired. To Him the God of the Old Testament was the living God and the teaching of the Old Testament was the teaching of the living God. To Him, what Scripture said, God said.

1. B. B. Warfield. Op. cit., pp. 65f.


The god he refers to is: Yahweh.

I have to say:

Shame on y'all

When presented with opportunities to be truthful, you decline and deliberately deceive, this is hatred and darkness.


Yahshua and the Apostles cites Yahweh many times (50+) by Name by citing passages of the Tanach which contain Yahwehs Name in the original Hebrew. The greek editors failed, and it is up to us to be sensible, and use our brains, the most complex object in the universe.

Nontheless, as incompetent as the greeks were, Yahweh still slipped a few hockeypucks past their goalies.

lol

checkout: Revelation of Yahweh.19:1;3;4;6

Allelouia sec gk:239>hb1984;3050

Halleluyah=Praise Yah

lol

The TetraGrammaton appears in Yahchanan/Yahweh is merciful/John 19:19

Known as the 'Superscription' The Romans posted a sign over Yahshua written in Latin, Greek and Hebrew.

Latin: Iesus Nazrenenus Rex Iudaeorum

Greek: Iesous O Nazarios O Basilus Ton Ioudaion

Hebrew: Yahshua Hanazroi Vemelech Hayahudaim=Yahshua of Nazareth the King of the People of Yahweh/jews


And it was the presence of this Tetragrammaton which was of consternation to some Jewish Leaders. The Romans were 'stickin' it' to them. Mucho Disrespect!!

So there is the Tetra-Grammaton and Yahwehs Name.

measel, phil, kasalt: YO!!!!

What do you think it means when scripture informs us that Yahshua Messiah and the Apostles went into the Synagogues on the Sabbath and read and taught from the Scriptures?

I have alot more evidence.

You don't have many more opportunities to be honest and loving. Avail yourself while you still can.

Kind Regards


A Must Read for All Yahwists, Jews, Nazarenes, Christians, Pagans/Heathens

A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._Meier

New Testament Use of the Old Testament

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

THE NEW TESTAMENT USE
OF THE OLD TESTAMENT
Robert L. Thomas
Professor of New Testament

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj13d.pdf


http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm

Which language did Yeshua and his Disciples communicate?

Most agree on the basic developments of the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Netzarim). Yeshua was born of Jewish lineage and he taught his disciples in his native Hebrew and Aramaic, the original disciples of Yeshua were also known as Jews, Hebrews and Israelites. Yeshua and his people lived under Roman occupation, but their language and religious identity as Jewish people is based on Torah, the written Word of YHWH. As the oral transmission of Yeshua's teaching widened to a greater audience, the disciples wrote about their experience with Yeshua in Hebrew and Aramaic, for the benefit of others who were not first hand witnesses like they to the things Yeshua said and did. But even before accounts of Yeshua's life were written, his teachings and fame was disseminated among Greeks and in the Greek language as well. Additionally, all who follow YHWH and His Mashiyach do so to the exclusion of all other religions and gods. YHWH sets His own apart, whether Greek or Jew, all who permit Torah to be written upon their hearts, become the peculiar people whom YHWH sets apart............

[nectars]

just who is jesus' father?

I Am

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I Am

The Revelation of the Divine Name
Rev. J.A. Motyer, B.D., M.A.
Vice-Principal of Clifton Theological College
and later Principal of Trinity Theological College, Bristol
[Reproduced by permission of the author]

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_revelation_motyer.html

Kind Regards

[nectars]

Edit: K read some of it and makes sense from that of the writer.

I have a question, as I'm no expert in Hebrew(though I plan to learn it), am I correct in saying there is no "W" sound in Hebrew? If so it would still take "Yahweh" back to YHVH instead of YHWH correct?

[phildee3]

Edit: K read some of it and makes sense from that of the writer.

I have a question, as I'm no expert in Hebrew(though I plan to learn it), am I correct in saying there is no "W" sound in Hebrew? If so it would still take "Yahweh" back to YHVH instead of YHWH correct?

Correct.

[andersbranderud]

Quote: “Most agree on the basic developments of the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Netzarim)”

A logical analysis (found here: www.netzarim.co.il (the only legitimate Netzarim (all others are charlatans)) of the earliest manusscripts (including the logical implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT)) of “the gospel of Matthew”, implies that Ribi Yehoshua was a Perushi (Pharisee). Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth was called a Ribi and only the Perushim (Pharisees) had Ribis.

The current earliest manuscripts of “the gospel of Matthew” contains words a first century Ribi would never have said, and thus a reconstruction is needed.
[Even according to the most authoritative Christian scholars, e.g., The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, NT contains redactions (see quote from that book in the above website; click on "Glossaries"; click on "NT")]

Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben David made a reconstruction named Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu, using a logical and scientific methodology. That is an essential read for those whom want to know what Ribi Yehoshua actually taught and didn’t taught.

Anders Branderud

[drakul]

=andersbranderud;1058629940]Quote:

The current earliest manuscripts of “the gospel of Matthew” contains words a first century Ribi would never have said, and thus a reconstruction is needed.

What are the words in Mathew that a Rabbi never would have said?

[michael christopher]

Others have also shown you how your precious KJV bible, even in its original form, was obviously manipulated by the powers at that time.

I'm starting to think his mind either short-circuits or just blanks out whatever text or information he's being given that contradicts his worldview.

[measle_weasel]

I'm starting to think his mind either short-circuits or just blanks out whatever text or information he's being given that contradicts his worldview.
Orli is a *perfect* example of someone who uses Crimestop on himself. Ive posted it a couple times to him, the quotes from 1984 that describe him, but he Crimestops himself from thinking about Crimestop and doesnt respond :eek: Crimestop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Im pretty sure self-mastery of Crimestop is required to become a pharisee :D

Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity

[michael christopher]

Orli is a *perfect* example of someone who uses Crimestop on himself. Ive posted it a couple times to him, the quotes from 1984 that describe him, but he Crimestops himself from thinking about Crimestop and doesnt respond :eek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimestop

Oh, I agree. The things he says to people are quite Orwellian. Naturally he would be prone to Crimestop since just as Big Brother teaches, Orli teaches that War is Peace, Hate is Love, Slavery is Freedom, Death is Life, 1+1+1=1, etc. etc. etc.

These fundamentalists need to give 1984 a good reading. The only reason they'd hate it is because it's Big Brother in charge of things and not Yahweh. But let's just say that the names are interchangeable because they might as well be.

[nectars]

What are the words in Mathew that a Rabbi never would have said?

Doesn't matter. This is the whole reason people dont understand what its saying, their so caught up in the sign that the cant see the message.

[jesusistruth]

http://video.google.se/videoplay?docid=-8233875030057190239&ei=Qhx1S4TyJpKB-Ab6lr3SBw

[nectars]

http://video.google.se/videoplay?docid=-8233875030057190239&ei=Qhx1S4TyJpKB-Ab6lr3SBw

Thats only part of it.

[phildee3]

http://video.google.se/videoplay?docid=-8233875030057190239&ei=Qhx1S4TyJpKB-Ab6lr3SBw

Well he didn't make a good start.
His Father/lord is not in heaven!

[sterling]

Ultimately, you probably aren't going to arrive at a point of knowing the creating life force by reading historical texts or digging around for "facts" in the literary works of man. Whether you call the force God or Steve is irrelevant. You will never arrive at real truths via the intellect - because the pursuit of knowledge in this manner will always at the extreme lead to fascism.

What are you looking for in the Bible or any other historical religious text? Are you hoping to find answers to questions you haven't even personally formed yet? If an aware "God" fealt that it was important for his nature and actions to be known to all men for all of time - wouldn't that God have provided a more robust documentation of events than an ambiguous, convoluted scripture written by man?

The answers found in any of these texts or prophecies and arguing their semantics is not going to satisfy the real questions you have.

By really looking in and at yourself and your surroundings, you will possibly eventually arrive at the conclusion that at a point in human evolution (possibly that event documented as the coming of Christ), something of a higher origin may have been born in the body of a man, just as once upon a time consciousness was born to man. What this higher force may have brought was something beyond the "I" which was the previous great shift. You may arrive at the feeling that this arrival transcended something huge and opened the possibility for man to do the same for himself some day. The feat achieved? - the transcendence of physical death for man and a future route home to his origin. What was his name and who was he? Jesus, Emmanuel, Yeshua, Yahweh? Does it matter? The beauty of this bloody ride is that if it matters to you, it matters. So keep questioning until you're content! I'll shut up and go and entertain myself with another conspiracy theory I'll never know the answers to... :)

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Much Truth is spoken here, yet there are issues that matter, and since source has revealed 'itself' to us through various 'messengers', if we 'strongly feel' that some of these 'messengers' are 'actually' 'transcendental' in their 'wisdom', it behhoves us, the hoi poloi, to investigate, as diligently and accurately as possible asto what their message was/is.

A common axiom that is well known is: 'The Devil is in the Details', not surprisingly, the TRUTH is 180 Degrees the opposite; 'Yahweh is in the Details'.

Stay 'Tuned'

:)

Kind Regards

[kblood]

There does not seem to be much about how Jesus might have been an heir to Egypt. The main problem with the Bible is how hard it is to date it. The stories in the Bible are not easy to pin down in history and exact years. The events in the Bible are not either.

I feel a bit sorry for those that believe the Bible is the word of god. Especially since so much of it was removed and made sure it was never put into the Bible.

But to get back on topic, I read something about some theories about the Bible. One of the was the ones called the lost years of Jesus I think it was. About Jesus years as a Buddhist or something like that. Learning about Eastern teachings. But also about how Jesus was the son of a Pharaoh who was hidden by his mother and given to Mary, which was her servant I think. Mary then raised him as his own son.

But I am sure quite a few here would not agree with that version of his story. Still does explain a few things.

[sterling]

Sorry, I did go a long way to de-railing the original line of this interesting thread...

Kblood - there are some fairly credible sources which document Jesus' presence in Egypt in his later years. They point to his study at the various mystery schools in the area. They also begin to shed light on the true purpose of some of the pyramid structures and the reason for their elaborate architecture and internal design. You may already be familiar with all of that, but if I can find/remember the texts I found the information in, I'll send you the details.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Why this is important: [FONT="Book Antiqua"]TRUTH, Absolute Truth

Without Truth, there is no Love

Humans must learn to be Truthful

Where there is an absence of Love, there is the presence of Hate





As we can see: The Book of Yahweh is a Litmus Test.

It will Test your own personal Honesty. This is a Test most of Pagandom/Heathendom often consistently fails.

Putting to the lie their proclamations about Truth and Love and Light.

When Pagans/Heathen deliberately, consciously misrepresent the Book of Yahweh, they prove that Love and Truth are worthless qualities to them, and any talk they make of Love and Truth is proven to be hypocritical.

You cannot lie and Love.

'Seeking to be wise, they become fools'


Kind Regards


some quality research materiels:

Must read

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/What%20is%20an%20Elohim.pdf

http://www.mashiyach.com/kingdom/kingdom.htm

To understand the Kingdom of Elohim one must have a perspective that YHWH gave life to all living souls for a purpose, and that purpose was not to create them so He could have the "satisfaction" of burning them in hell. Much of the thinking of hell comes directly from the dark ages where torture and gore were commonplace ways of horrifying people into submission to ruthless and evil dictators. This same ideology is still widely held my the majority of Churches today, whereas a bit of personal study into the Word of YHWH clearly shows that sheol (the grave) and Gehenna (eternal separation) are not teaching us about the physically torturous hell that most Christian theologians would want us to believe in.



It is impossible to have an understanding of The Kingdom of Elohim whilst one has a picture that their church will get saved and most other people will go to hell. The hellish concepts of the church have sabotaged and betrayed the message of Mashiyach, these cruel ideas were born in Babylon not in Zion, YHWH takes no pleasure in the punishment or death of the rebellious.



"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says YHWH Elohim: therefore turn and live." Ezekiel 18:31, 32



The Kingdom of Elohim is not of this World

The Kingdom of Elohim dwells inside His people

Babylon versus Zion

http://www.mashiyach.com/consciousness.htm


Within the culture of "Belief" are three main elements of consciousness

that polarize the religious worlds, these can be described as follows.



Messiah Consciousness

Torah Consciousness

G-d Consciousness



Messiah Consciousness is what connects us with our Spirits, love is a product of Messiah consciousness, this consciousness connects us with others and to our Life Force. The Ruach HaKodesh brings awareness of Messiah, Torah and G-d Consciousness. Mashiyach is the "Minister of Righteousness", through Mashiyach we have the wisdom to apply Torah and the things of YHWH Elohim to this world. Even though many souls might reject the Messiahship of Yeshua, it is through Messiah Consciousness that one can approach "the Father" who is YHWH El Elyon. But those who focus only on Messiah and reject Torah or G-d Consciousness are not complete in Mashiyach, because Messiah Consciousness leads us to "the Father" and to Torah Consciousness.



Torah Consciousness is what connects the Will of Mashiyach with our own Actions. Torah represents the MIND OF MASHIYACH, it is Yeshua who walks in the fullness of Torah and Who shows mankind how to be established in His Righteousness. Jeremiah wrote of the Brit Chadasha (New Covenant) wherein the Torah would be written on our hearts. For those not raised within the commonwealth of a Torah community it is Messiah Consciousness that established the link to the "WORD OF YHWH". The WORD is the creative force by which YHWH used to create the Universe. The WORD OF YHWH is mentioned 255 times in the Scriptures, there are 242 mentions in the Tanak and only 13 mentions in the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Netzarim which Marcion called "the New Testament"). Psalm 33:6 "By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." John 1:14 "The WORD of YHWH became flesh and dwelt among us." The TORAH is the WORD of YHWH, within TORAH is the WORD of YHWH that holds the Universe together, without TORAH the world would not exist. Without Torah consciousness there is no harmony between the Spiritual and Natural worlds. Torah consciousness is the Authority of YHWH which aligns the natural world into His own Consciousness. Yeshua Mashiyach is both judged and established by Torah Consciousness, if Yeshua were to have violated Torah he would have been disqualified from being Mashiyach. Yeshua was the Perfect Lamb, His PERFECTION came through being altogether RIGHTEOUS. James stated, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of His own will He begat us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." The Word of Truth is Torah, the book of Moshe which is also confirmed by all the Prophets and the Testimony of Yeshua.



G-d Consciousness is the ultimate authority by which we live and have our being, but without both Messiah and Torah Consciousness there is ambiguity that can be interpreted in manifold ways, so much so that some call evil good and good evil. For an infinite G-d to connect to finite souls there must be a transaction in our neshama (spirit). The Word of YHWH is Spirit so as we open our hearts to receive the Word of YHWH we gain the Mind of Mashiyach. Mankind is prone to make gods in his own image, there is also the propensity to ride the vicious circle of "static god consciousness" which is another way of saying "religion", or the methodology of god without personal relationship and interaction with YHWH Elohim. The Assyrian name for Bavel means "gate of God", the tower of Bavel was considered by Assyrians to be the way to God, this was the Assyrian form of "g-d consciousness". "God consciousness" for Greeks was man as the measure of all things, so much so that it was very common for men to be deified and worshipped as their gods. Many souls listen to false prophets and Television evangelists who make "images of god" through theological models, this "god consciousness" is based on the culture of self, the seminary or leadership duplicates false teaching by recruiting more volunteers to their own form of "god consciousness".



Life is sustained through the physical and spiritual values of Messiah consciousness, but life is destroyed by anti-Messiah Consciousness. Purity of Messiah consciousness establishes Love, Compassion, and Caring, but even these most noble of attributes are easily perverted through the greed and selfishness of misplaced
"god consciousness". Messiah Consciousness has reached it's ultimate perversion through religion which capitalizes on ideas about Messiah, Torah or G-d but denies the power thereof. Although all religions advocate forms of Messiah Consciousness, all religions also prejudice themselves by installing Masters, Mentors and "enlightened ones" who stand in place of Mashiyach for their followers. These false shepherds are obstacles to Messiah and Torah Consciousness who operate on self made "god consciousness". Many Christians claim to have a connection to YHWH through Messiah Consciousness, however we see blatant paganism within Christianity which speaks of hybrid consciousness derived from humanistic values. Orthodox Judaism claims to connect to YHWH through Torah Consciousness, however religious tradition has usurped true Torah Consciousness and installed the authority of man Rabbis, rather than the Living Torah.



Whether it be the New Age Movement, Christianity or Judaism, each religion struggles to define itself and be established within Messiah Consciousness, these religions have picked up many values from the anti-Messiah who is also anti-Torah, but very much pro "god", hasatan offers himself as the alternative deity in many different forms. The word "God" means troop, fortune or luck, this adds confusion to the revelation of "God Consciousness" as even the definition of God is a departure from the truth of Elohim. Elohim is the original Hebrew word that was translated into "god", Elohim refers only to the might or authority of deity, but YHWH and Mashiyach provide the specific attributes, authority and character of the one true Elohim. Since the beginning of man's history there has been a struggle to connect to our True Nature and understand our existence on this earth. There are many hints of Torah based God Consciousness revealed in many parts of the earth, from Paleo Hebrew Coins on the islands of Papeete Tahiti within Ancient Polynesian and Chaldean culture, to Indian artifacts in New Mexico USA or to Brazilian Capuela, both Torah and Messiah Consciousness is evidenced. The challenge for us today is to know the reality of Messiah and Torah consciousness which makes us complete, we are to be a Kedoshim (Holy People) who are given the resources and intelligence to minister Justice. To be "Believers" is good first step towards the Perfection we are called to live within, but we must go on to maturity and Perfection. We have the resources in Yeshua and the Ruach HaKodesh to live, teach and harmonize the Word of reconciliation by walking in the Faith of Mashiyach and Observing Torah. From the pillars of Torah and Mashiyach consciousness we are to build a foundation towards true "YHWH consciousness", only then can we know that it is not we who live for ourselves, but He who lives in us. YHWH has established His Word in us and through Mashiyach He harmonizes all things to Himself.



Let us take inventory and consider which of these three "connections" we feel the most comfortable. Which of these three do we lack confidence, in which do we feel strength? Based on the limitations of our own "human nature" we should recognize that whatever is the more familiar to us can also potentially be the most misaligned. If we feel we are strong in the area of Messiah Consciousness then we must ask YHWH to open our hearts to Torah Consciousness. If we feel our strength lies in Torah Consciousness then we must ask YHWH to open our hearts to Messiah Consciousness. If our actions do not align with the values we espouse, we must address our souls before YHWH and be reconciled in our values and actions. If we have conflict with other "Believers" we must also survey our own souls to see where we lack in wisdom or ability to reconcile all things in Yeshua. It is immature and irresponsible for souls to avoid conflict resolution by putting the onus of change upon others, even upon other religions, the fact of the matter is that we need diversity and conflict to mature us and prove Messiah & Torah Consciousness within us. We are called to be a Kedoshim which means the work of perfecting our souls is also dependant upon Mishpocha we are called to walk with, by withdrawing from conflicts or not establishing true reconciliation, Believers set themselves up to establish "god consciousness" according to the flesh, thereby neither developing maturity and fruits unto Mashiyach. We either receive or reject the Ruach HaKodesh based on how we choose to live our lives and treat others. May we each grow in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of Elohim, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Mashiyach. Amen ve Amen!



Shalom U'Vrachot,



Baruch Ben Daniel

[nectars]

There does not seem to be much about how Jesus might have been an heir to Egypt. The main problem with the Bible is how hard it is to date it. The stories in the Bible are not easy to pin down in history and exact years. The events in the Bible are not either.

I feel a bit sorry for those that believe the Bible is the word of god. Especially since so much of it was removed and made sure it was never put into the Bible.

But to get back on topic, I read something about some theories about the Bible. One of the was the ones called the lost years of Jesus I think it was. About Jesus years as a Buddhist or something like that. Learning about Eastern teachings. But also about how Jesus was the son of a Pharaoh who was hidden by his mother and given to Mary, which was her servant I think. Mary then raised him as his own son.

But I am sure quite a few here would not agree with that version of his story. Still does explain a few things.

I dont consider it to be anything more than allegory, so the date from my own perspective is irrelevant. One of the main reasons Christianity stirs up so many issues is in the taking it as a historically accurate literal truth speaking of physical characters. Now this may or may not be true and I have no interest in debating it, what I do know though is that when its seen in a slightly different light the entire thing falls into place and opens itself up "for those with eyes to see and ears to hear" -I suspect the Koran etc do as well.

As for it being the word of God... everything is. This is one of those things I never could understand with Christians or any other religion. Even if it comes through "Satan" or the Ego its still Gods word -that is, unless God is not all powerful and didn't create everything. Is that what really being admitted to?

[measle_weasel]

The OP evokes a spectrum of reaction from me, from unbridled laughter at the idiocy revealed, to abject horror and revulsion at the deceit, hatred and bigotry.


I didnt know my ideas and musing had such great power over you to be able to stimulate said strong feelings :) Do you let everyone control you in such a manner? :confused:

Also, your excessive laughter through out your post betrays your fear and/or lack of comprehension at the ideas presented. I dont think you are stupid, so Id be willing to bet that fear is what motivated your laughter; it was a defense mechanism, a function of the Crimestop you employ, to prevent any dangerous ideas from entering your mind that could threaten the foundations of your current paradigm / belief system.

Why? The Off The Chart Ignorance, the Moronic and Imbecilic Logic and Reasoning, the very craftily veiled hatred, deceit and antisemitism.

This quote says more about your own mindset, than of my post. Your post is packed with such ad hominem attacks. Are not your own objective thoughts on the subject at hand enough to convey your point, or can they not stand on their own without a plethora of ad hominems?

So it behooves me to 'Break It Down'.

Who are you trying to convince with your break down that my thoughts are not worthy of consideration? Others? Or did they strike so close to your own personal beliefs, that simply ignoring them was not an option; an entire rude and ego driven post was required for you to convince yourself that I was wrong, and that your own personal beliefs still remain unchallenged by worthy alternatives?

The wind can only break the tree that is not willing to bend. Pretending that the wind isnt there doesnt make it go away, as is popularly conceived in the centophobic community :)

[sterling]

As for it being the word of God... everything is. This is one of those things I never could understand with Christians or any other religion. Even if it comes through "Satan" or the Ego its still Gods word -that is, unless God is not all powerful and didn't create everything. Is that what really being admitted to?

Not necessarily. When you see something truly beautiful, a sunset for example, it's never quite enough to see it alone is it? Without a loved one to share the experience with, it never feels quite complete. Now hypothetically, say a self-aware God figure had a feeling comparable to this lonliness when viewing their creation at work. Imagine they wanted a loving companion to view the beauty with, to share the joy with. If they simply created a predictable, "programmed" entity, the God would still be alone with only another image of themself for company. Now what if the God relinquished total control of the creation and allowed the life force its own free will? He would remain all powerful and all creation still has its origin in him, but there would now be something of enormous importance - the possibility to share the act of creation and the love of life with another. Humour me and entertain this thought for a second - God felt lonely and wanted to be loved! Maybe it sheds a light on why you woke up this morning aware of yourself and the life all around you. Maybe that's why human company never quite fills that deepest hole you feel sometimes. Maybe we're learning enough about this whole creation business to one day share a seat with the creator and reflect on how perfect it all is? Maybe I'm just diverting a thread again. But I have an overwhelming feeling we're all on the long walk home! :o

[phildee3]

there are some fairly credible sources which document Jesus' presence in Egypt in his later years. They point to his study at the various mystery schools in the area.
They also begin to shed light on the true purpose of some of the pyramid structures and the reason for their elaborate architecture and internal design. You may already be familiar with all of that, but if I can find/remember the texts I found the information in, I'll send you the details.

I'd be interested to see this too.
Of course the NT places Jesus in Egypt in his infancy. It makes sense to me that he would have spent his early childhood - his formative years - growing up with these influences.
He may well have returned in his later years but there's some good evidence that he spent some time, as an adult, in India - following at least two visits to Britain.

[rodin]

This Post is worthy of a full Crime Scene Investigation, the Goal: Absolute Truth

I am not sure what you are selling but I am sure I won't buy it

By their works ye shall know them

[rodin]

Measle - I agree about OT and also agree pretty much with Drakul here

OT is a false flag operation IMO

edit

Who is Jesus' Biological father?

My guess Joseph. He is still the Son of God

[measle_weasel]

Are there any "christians" who can actually give a good explination as to why they would think Jesus' Father would be a tyranical ego maniac hell bent on subjugating all creatures under his iron fist of despotism?

[phildee3]

Are there any "christians" who can actually give a good explination as to why they would think Jesus' Father would be a tyranical ego maniac hell bent on subjugating all creatures under his iron fist of despotism?

No.
Because he's not.

[kasalt]

Are there any "christians" who can actually give a good explination as to why they would think Jesus' Father would be a tyranical ego maniac hell bent on subjugating all creatures under his iron fist of despotism?

Good question! Have you seen these excellent and amusing videos on the subject?

What would YHVH do?

What Would Yahweh Do? - YouTubeWhat would Jesus not do?

What Would Jesus NOT Do? - YouTubePlease bare with me as this may get a bit long, but it speaks to the question of who the Father of Jesus Christ really was (or wasn't).

This is going to come as quite a surprise to many Christians, but the fact of the matter is that "God" in the Old Testament was impersonated by lesser angelic beings, and this can be easily proven through a clear reading of the text itself. For example:Genesis 22:1-3
1 And it came to pass, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, "Abraham!" and Abraham said, "Behold, here I am."
2 And the angel of the LORD said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
In the above passage, we can clearly see that the being who spoke to Abraham is referred to as "God" (verse 1) and then as "the angel of the LORD" (verse 2). Is this being God's angel or is it God Himself? The text calls him both, but this is a logical impossibility. One can reasonably assume that God would not engage in such unreasonableness; therefore, this must be a lesser being who is only impersonating God, and not the Most High God Himself.

We see this again later in the same chapter, as Abraham is about to sacrifice his son to this impersonating angel:Genesis 22:10-12
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" and Abraham said, "Here am I."
12 And the angel of the LORD said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me."
This passage clearly indicates that this being is a lesser angel and not the Supreme Being because the text specifically refers to him as "the angel of the LORD" and he speaks of the Supreme Being as a being other than himself. Then in verse 12, he commends Abraham for not withholding his son using the personal possessive words, "from me", rather than "from God". This proves from the text that Abraham was actually about to sacrifice his son to a lesser angelic being, and not to the Supreme Being.

We see this happen again in the book of Exodus, with the story of Moses and the burning bush:Exodus 3:2-6
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, "I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt."
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses, Moses." And he said, "Here am I."
5 And he said, "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Here we see again that at one point, the being speaking to Moses from the burning bush is clearly referred to as a lesser angel ("the angel of the LORD"), but at another point, the same being is referred to as YHWH himself. This lesser angelic being goes on to claim in verse 6 that he is "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". This is because YHWH was being impersonated by a lesser being, and the text frankly admits it.

The New Testament also confirms this point. For example, in Acts 7:52-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:52-53&version=KJV), Stephen refers to the Jewish religious leaders as those "who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it". In this quote, Stephen expressly stated that the Mosaic law was given by lesser angelic beings, and not by the Supreme Being himself.

The author of the book of Hebrews (2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%202:2&version=AMP)) also states that the Old Testament law was delivered by lesser angelic beings. So does Paul, in Galatians 3:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19-20&version=NIV), who expressly asserts that "The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator." Neither the angels nor the mediator were the Supreme Being. They were, and are, impersonators.

H.P. Blavatsky also concurs. Quoting from 19th century author William Pratt's book, New Aspects of Life and Religion (http://www.archive.org/details/newaspectsoflife00pratuoft), Blavatsky wrote:"The Greeks believed in the existence of ... daimons. But ... they were anticipated by the Hebrews, who held that there was a class of personating spirits which they designated demions, 'personators.' Admitting with Jehovah, who expressly asserts it, the existence of other gods, which were personators of the One God, were these other gods simply a higher class of personating spirits, which had acquired and exercised greater powers? And is not personation the Key to the mystery of the Spirit state? But once granting this position, how are we to know that Jehovah was not a personating Spirit, a Spirit which arrogated to itself that it was, and thus became, the personator of the one unknown and unknowable God? Nay, how do we know that the Spirit calling itself Jehovah, in arrogating to itself his attributes did not thus cause its own designation to be imputed to the One who is in reality as nameless as incognizable?"

Then the author shows "that the Spirit Jehovah is a personator" on its own admission. It acknowledged to Moses [in Exodus 6:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+6:2-4&version=KJV)] "that it had appeared to the patriarchs as the God Shaddai" ... and "the god Helion" ... With the same breath it assumed the name of Jehovah; and it is on the faith of the assertion of this personator that the names El, Eloah, Elohim, and Shaddai, have been read and interpreted in juxtaposition with Jehovah as "the Lord God Almighty." Then when the name Jehovah became ineffable ... the designation Adonai, "Lord" was substituted for it, and "... it was owing to this substitution that the 'Lord' passed from the Jewish to the Christian 'World' as a designation of God." And how are we to know, the author may add, that Jehovah was not many spirits personating even that seemingly one -- Jod or Jod-He?
Source: http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/th...n-Jehovah.html (http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/additional/christianity/Satan-Jehovah.html)

If the Old Testament law was delivered by lesser impersonating angels, but Jesus was the son of the Supreme Being, then Jesus was not the son of the Old Testament's impersonator angels.

[phildee3]

If the Old Testament law was delivered by lesser impersonating angels, but Jesus was the son of the Supreme Being, then Jesus was not the son of the Old Testament's impersonator angels.



Bingo!
Welcome to original Christianity.

[measle_weasel]

Good question! Have you seen these excellent and amusing videos on the subject?

What would YHVH do? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmhFniUTQIE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmhFniUTQIEWhat would Jesus not do? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNEPlease bare with me as this may get a bit long, but it speaks to the question of who the Father of Jesus Christ really was (or wasn't)

Lol, those were great, thanks for posting!

[michael christopher]

Good question! Have you seen these excellent and amusing videos on the subject?

What would YHVH do? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmhFniUTQIE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmhFniUTQIEWhat would Jesus not do? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNEPlease bare with me as this may get a bit long, but it speaks to the question of who the Father of Jesus Christ really was (or wasn't).

This is going to come as quite a surprise to many Christians, but the fact of the matter is that "God" in the Old Testament was impersonated by lesser angelic beings, and this can be easily proven through a clear reading of the text itself. For example:Genesis 22:1-3
1 And it came to pass, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, "Abraham!" and Abraham said, "Behold, here I am."
2 And the angel of the LORD said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
In the above passage, we can clearly see that the being who spoke to Abraham is referred to as "God" (verse 1) and then as "the angel of the LORD" (verse 2). Is this being God's angel or is it God Himself? The text calls him both, but this is a logical impossibility. One can reasonably assume that God would not engage in such unreasonableness; therefore, this must be a lesser being who is only impersonating God, and not the Most High God Himself.

We see this again later in the same chapter, as Abraham is about to sacrifice his son to this impersonating angel:Genesis 22:10-12
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" and Abraham said, "Here am I."
12 And the angel of the LORD said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me."
This passage clearly indicates that this being is a lesser angel and not the Supreme Being because the text specifically refers to him as "the angel of the LORD" and he speaks of the Supreme Being as a being other than himself. Then in verse 12, he commends Abraham for not withholding his son using the personal possessive words, "from me", rather than "from God". This proves from the text that Abraham was actually about to sacrifice his son to a lesser angelic being, and not to the Supreme Being.

We see this happen again in the book of Exodus, with the story of Moses and the burning bush:Exodus 3:2-6
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, "I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt."
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses, Moses." And he said, "Here am I."
5 And he said, "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Here we see again that at one point, the being speaking to Moses from the burning bush is clearly referred to as a lesser angel ("the angel of the LORD"), but at another point, the same being is referred to as YHWH himself. This lesser angelic being goes on to claim in verse 6 that he is "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". This is because YHWH was being impersonated by a lesser being, and the text frankly admits it.

The New Testament also confirms this point. For example, in Acts 7:52-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:52-53&version=KJV), Stephen refers to the Jewish religious leaders as those "who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it". In this quote, Stephen expressly stated that the Mosaic law was given by lesser angelic beings, and not by the Supreme Being himself.

The author of the book of Hebrews (2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%202:2&version=AMP)) also states that the Old Testament law was delivered by lesser angelic beings. So does Paul, in Galatians 3:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:19-20&version=NIV), who expressly asserts that "The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator." Neither the angels nor the mediator were the Supreme Being. They were, and are, impersonators.

H.P. Blavatsky also concurs. Quoting from 19th century author William Pratt's book, New Aspects of Life and Religion (http://www.archive.org/details/newaspectsoflife00pratuoft), Blavatsky wrote:"The Greeks believed in the existence of ... daimons. But ... they were anticipated by the Hebrews, who held that there was a class of personating spirits which they designated demions, 'personators.' Admitting with Jehovah, who expressly asserts it, the existence of other gods, which were personators of the One God, were these other gods simply a higher class of personating spirits, which had acquired and exercised greater powers? And is not personation the Key to the mystery of the Spirit state? But once granting this position, how are we to know that Jehovah was not a personating Spirit, a Spirit which arrogated to itself that it was, and thus became, the personator of the one unknown and unknowable God? Nay, how do we know that the Spirit calling itself Jehovah, in arrogating to itself his attributes did not thus cause its own designation to be imputed to the One who is in reality as nameless as incognizable?"

Then the author shows "that the Spirit Jehovah is a personator" on its own admission. It acknowledged to Moses [in Exodus 6:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+6:2-4&version=KJV)] "that it had appeared to the patriarchs as the God Shaddai" ... and "the god Helion" ... With the same breath it assumed the name of Jehovah; and it is on the faith of the assertion of this personator that the names El, Eloah, Elohim, and Shaddai, have been read and interpreted in juxtaposition with Jehovah as "the Lord God Almighty." Then when the name Jehovah became ineffable ... the designation Adonai, "Lord" was substituted for it, and "... it was owing to this substitution that the 'Lord' passed from the Jewish to the Christian 'World' as a designation of God." And how are we to know, the author may add, that Jehovah was not many spirits personating even that seemingly one -- Jod or Jod-He?
Source: http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/th...n-Jehovah.html (http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/additional/christianity/Satan-Jehovah.html)

If the Old Testament law was delivered by lesser impersonating angels, but Jesus was the son of the Supreme Being, then Jesus was not the son of the Old Testament's impersonator angels.

That is an extremely thought-provoking post, kasalt. Thanks a lot for posting it. I wonder if Blavatsky is so villainized because of the threat her interpretations posed to the power structure of the Yahweh worshipers (seems pretty obvious now, actually).

[emerald]

That is an extremely thought-provoking post, kasalt. Thanks a lot for posting it. I wonder if Blavatsky is so villainized because of the threat her interpretations posed to the power structure of the Yahweh worshipers (seems pretty obvious now, actually).

BLAVATSKY was villainized indeed, spotted on.

[michael christopher]

Are there any "christians" who can actually give a good explination as to why they would think Jesus' Father would be a tyranical ego maniac hell bent on subjugating all creatures under his iron fist of despotism?

Because the Bible says so!

That's the real Christian answer, you don't need a Christian to explain it in 5000 words, Bible quotes and YouTube videos.

[kasalt]

Lol, those were great, thanks for posting!

That is an extremely thought-provoking post, kasalt. Thanks a lot for posting it. I wonder if Blavatsky is so villainized because of the threat her interpretations posed to the power structure of the Yahweh worshipers (seems pretty obvious now, actually).

You're welcome, guys! :D

Regarding Blavatsky, MC, I think her books are a great compendium of knowledge, but if these claims are true, she does come in for a fair share of criticism:

[Blavatsky’s housekeeper, Emma Cutting, demonstrated] how she and HPB had made a doll together, which they ... manipulated on a long bamboo pole in semi-darkness to provide the Master’s alleged apparitions. Emma had also dropped “precipitated” letters on to Theosophical heads from holes in the ceiling, while her husband had made sliding panels and hidden entrances into the shrine room [adjoining HPB’s bedroom] to facilitate Blavatsky’s comings and goings and make possible the substitution of all the brooches, dishes and other objects that she used in her demonstrations [i.e., as purported materializations or “apports”]....

The Russian journalist V. S. Solovieff claimed to have caught [Blavatsky] red-handed with the silver bells which produced astral music [in séances].... Blavatsky confessed to Solovieff quite bluntly that the phenomena were fraudulent, adding that one must deceive men in order to rule them.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky#Controversies_of_authenticity.2C_ plagiarism.2C_influence.2C_and_Aryanism

[searching]

jesus=son of god, so god = gets crucified = god dead?

[bendoon]

Are there any "christians" who can actually give a good explination as to why they would think Jesus' Father would be a tyranical ego maniac hell bent on subjugating all creatures under his iron fist of despotism?

I think you got it the wrong way round, it's Human beings that want to do that.

[measle_weasel]

I think you got it the wrong way round, it's Human beings that want to do that.

No, Im pretty sure I meant Jehovah, god of war and genocide, jealousy and wrath :)

[nectars]

I think you got it the wrong way round, it's Human beings that want to do that.

Its the egoself that wants that, which is what most Christians project onto God therefore creating the lowest form of "god".

Not convinced by the jehovah thing, regardless of the amount of time people seem to put into providing info to support their argument. This also is just the ego wanting to be right and filtering it to suit its own agenda by attempting to bend the will of others. If it doesn't get agreement then "your wrong" and it secretly wishes "you should die if you dont think what I want you to think". After all, it has all this "supporting information"...

Jehova, YHWH(YHVH/HVHY) simplified pretty much means I AM. It's Beingness or that which is beyond Consciousness, nothing to do with the preconceptions or beliefs of all the egos who've distorted it over the millenia.

I know this will cause <insert w/e BS> but I really couldn't care less anymore. Opinions, even ones backed by supposed info are no more than that; opinions. People(egos) see what they want to see and would kill to protect their being right.

The idiotic voice behind the thoughts in our heads has alot to answer for.

[bendoon]

No, Im pretty sure I meant Jehovah, god of war and genocide, jealousy and wrath :)

So Lenin, Mao, Idi Amin, Blair, Hitler and the like were all working on orders from Jehovah ?

[phildee3]

No, Im pretty sure I meant Jehovah, god of war and genocide, jealousy and wrath :)

Jehovah is the god of selectivity -
exclusiveness/inclusiveness.
He is just as benevolent as he is genocidal.
Extreme in both.
His love for his slaves is as great as any.

[1776]

BLAVATSKY was villainized indeed, spotted on.

She sure was! :rolleyes:

Rant to the Truth Movement (Pt. 1 of 3)
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Rant to the Truth Movement (Pt. 2 of 3)
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Rant to the Truth Movement (Pt. 3 of 3)
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Peace&Love
God bless

[measle_weasel]

So Lenin, Mao, Idi Amin, Blair, Hitler and the like were all working on orders from Jehovah ?
How on Earth did you come to that conclusion? Do vineyard owners "work on orders" from Dionysus?

[measle_weasel]

Jehovah is the god of selectivity -
exclusiveness/inclusiveness.
He is just as benevolent as he is genocidal.
Extreme in both.
His love for his slaves is as great as any.
Maybe. But does Jehovah love his slaves for who they are, or does all he really love is the worship they give to him?

[bendoon]

How on Earth did you come to that conclusion? Do vineyard owners "work on orders" from Dionysus?

Well you contradict yourself then, since you said

No, Im pretty sure I meant Jehovah, god of war and genocide, jealousy and wrath

Why do they need a God of war when they all make war of their own accord.

[measle_weasel]

Well you contradict yourself then, since you said

Where in that statement did I say that people who make war take their "orders" from Jehovah? I neither said it, nor insinuated it. Im not sure where you are seeing a contradiction, unless you believe that all actions and events are actually "ordered" by the gods, and us mortals have no control over ourselves nor our destinies, and assume that I believe the same.

Why do they need a God of war when they all make war of their own accord.

Good question, but youd have to ask someone who believes such a thing.

I think you got it the wrong way round, it's Human beings that want to do that.

Ill re-answer this, since there seems to be confusion.

Both do, and both can act independent of one another. But the one I was referring to in my question, was Jehovah, and not to humanity, regardless of both Jehovah and humanity generally wanting the same thing, ie, slaves who worship them unquestionably with an absolute intolerance of anyone who thinks they should be free to think for themselves and not be a servant.

I assume you are "christian", and that is why you are coming to the defense of the entity in question. So do you have an answer to my inquiry? Why would Jesus' Father be a psychotic ego-maniac whose nearly entire message, and pretty much every action, is in diametrical opposition to his supposed Son, Jesus'?

[bendoon]

and that is why you are coming to the defense of the entity in question. So do you have an answer to my inquiry? Why would Jesus' Father be a psychotic ego-maniac whose nearly entire message, and pretty much every action, is in diametrical opposition to his supposed Son, Jesus'?

I remember some teachers I didn't like at school and could quite easily have described them as "psychotic ego-maniacs" however when I look back I realise that these were the good teachers who had the kids best interest at heart, the easy going likeable teachers were the ones where nobody learnt anything, although at the time I didn't see it like that at all, I thought I knew better and wanted to be "free to think for myself and not be a servant".

So what you may call a "psychotic ego-maniac" may actually know better than you since he created the earth and may actually have your best interest at heart and one day you may come to realise it.

[tannah]

I remember some teachers I didn't like at school and could quite easily have described them as "psychotic ego-maniacs" however when I look back I realise that these were the good teachers who had the kids best interest at heart, the easy going likeable teachers were the ones where nobody learnt anything, although at the time I didn't see it like that at all, I thought I knew better and wanted to be "free to think for myself and not be a servant".

So what you may call a "psychotic ego-maniac" may actually know better than you since he created the earth and may actually have your best interest at heart and one day you may come to realise it.

LOL!!! You had teachers that ordered a pregnant mommy be slashed in two?

Give it up. Jehovah was a man-made mouthpiece in order to fire up the people for war, and to get them to behave without questioning authority, and give the priests a free lunch.

[measle_weasel]

I remember some teachers I didn't like at school and could quite easily have described them as "psychotic ego-maniacs" however when I look back I realise that these were the good teachers who had the kids best interest at heart, the easy going likeable teachers were the ones where nobody learnt anything, although at the time I didn't see it like that at all, I thought I knew better and wanted to be "free to think for myself and not be a servant".

So what you may call a "psychotic ego-maniac" may actually know better than you since he created the earth and may actually have your best interest at heart and one day you may come to realise it.

Maybe.

But, "by their fruits you shall know them". By Jehovahs fruits he is judged, and by those fruits Ive come to the conclusion that Jehovah is more akin to Satan, than to the true Creator. You can go ahead and continue to bow down to Satan if you like, ignoring the facts, but Ill continue to choose not to, and continue to choose to think for myself.

[ben87]

I heard his real father was a baptist who went by the name of John.

[bendoon]

LOL!!! You had teachers that ordered a pregnant mommy be slashed in two?

Give it up. Jehovah was a man-made mouthpiece in order to fire up the people for war, and to get them to behave without questioning authority, and give the priests a free lunch.

I have been away for 4 months and see that you are still here in your campaign against Christianity, some things never change :D

I have missed you.

to fire up the people for war,

Lets see, the ME was a pretty violent place 3500 years ago, what with the Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Medes all vying to be top dogs, how long do you think the Israelites would have lasted if they hadn't fought back ? So a God of peace would have been as much use as a tampon to a 75 year old Gran.

[ben87]

I heard Jesus mothers name was mary, but its actually Salome... Salome just so happens to be one of the three Marys who were present at Jesus "resurrection". She was also king herods daughter/sister? she had sex with John the baptist then cut his head off so she could say she was a virgin(Immaculate conception???) LOL. More like the immaculate deception.

There is no such thing as a man god so stop kidding yourselves.

[tannah]

I have been away for 4 months and see that you are still here in your campaign against Christianity, some things never change :D

I have missed you.

Campaign against Christianity? On the contrary. Bible freaks are not Christian. There's a big difference between worshipping the bible and worshipping Christ. You would do well to look into it, before you get your labels and fables in a twist.

Find me ONE post where I campaign against Christ.

[bendoon]

On the contrary. Bible freaks are not Christian. There's a big difference between worshipping the bible and worshipping Christ.

Where does the idea of Christ come from ? the Beano ?

[ben87]

From Yahweh the story of "christ" came, he was a egyptian pharoah 1300 years before "christ".

[tannah]

I heard Jesus mothers name was mary, but its actually Salome... Salome just so happens to be one of the three Marys who were present at Jesus "resurrection". She was also king herods daughter/sister? she had sex with John the baptist then cut his head off so she could say she was a virgin(Immaculate conception???) LOL. More like the immaculate deception.

There is no such thing as a man god so stop kidding yourselves.

i'm learning of things I hadn't contemplated before from you. That doesn't mean I agree, but thanks anyway for putting your angle accross.

I think that once all the borrowed myths and the "dream world people believe to be real" is taken into account, we're simply left with a suppressed message of PEACE and LOVE. Any master that agrees to come here normally wishes to introduce this to the hearts of mankind.
Most religions have this simple message. But just look how we wiggle and squirm in order to hang on to our deceived ego self. Another Master will arrive at the end of this cycle, new name but same message. It may be a female this time, and the first to reject her will be the bible freaks. So the master will offer the ""feast" to those that have ears for the message of Love.

To serve God is to celebrate creation, and to defend truth. Is that a secret?

[tannah]

Where does the idea of Christ come from ? the Beano ?

Bet I could find an issue of beano where Christ can be discerned from in between the lines. I lift stones in my garden and marvel at Christ. See I even found it in Marvel.:D

The idea of Christ is not only found in the bible. Pound for pound the clearest view of Christ isn't found in the bible. And if you're honest about evaluating the origins of certain myths you won't end up a blind bible freak.

[octopusrex]

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the living God, the Alpha & Omega, the Creator, He lived among His creation as a man to die for our sins (the one and only Messiah), and He is the Holy Spirit which indwells all saved souls on the face of this planet. The trinity is Jesus. 1+1+1 = 1.


Jesus Christ is God Incarnate
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm


The Wonderful Truth of the Trinity
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/wonderful_trinity.htm



Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

Answer: Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????......

[thereisonlywe]

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the living God, the Alpha & Omega, the Creator, He lived among His creation as a man to die for our sins (the one and only Messiah), and He is the Holy Spirit which indwells all saved souls on the face of this planet. The trinity is Jesus. 1+1+1 = 1.


Jesus Christ is God Incarnate
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm


The Wonderful Truth of the Trinity
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/wonderful_trinity.htm



Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

Answer: Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

This post actually helped us understand further why did people confuse the concept of Perfect Man (insan al-kamil) with godship. Thanks Orli!

Love&Peace

[bendoon]

The idea of Christ is not only found in the bible.

No, but thats where it comes from.

[ben87]

i'm learning of things I hadn't contemplated before from you. That doesn't mean I agree, but thanks anyway for putting your angle accross.

I think that once all the borrowed myths and the "dream world people believe to be real" is taken into account, we're simply left with a suppressed message of PEACE and LOVE. Any master that agrees to come here normally wishes to introduce this to the hearts of mankind.
Most religions have this simple message. But just look how we wiggle and squirm in order to hang on to our deceived ego self. Another Master will arrive at the end of this cycle, new name but same message. It may be a female this time, and the first to reject her will be the bible freaks. So the master will offer the ""feast" to those that have ears for the message of Love.

To serve God is to celebrate creation, and to defend truth. Is that a secret?

Unfortunatly it is a secret in these days, a message like this spread throughout all religions would destroy the trap we are in.

Thats why Yahawashi was killed, a select few who ran the temples lost a lot of money once he said that god's temple is the world and there is no need to sacrifice(therefore taking away the temple masters revenue.)

If the so called "priest,clerics" etc. spread the true word of god and not the dogma that was written after the prophets have died things would be very different.

Moses, Jesus , Mohammed these three were all Muslim, They all believed in Allah , This was the foundation of Judaism, Then Christianity and Islam. The belief in the one all knowing most benovelent. Not a trinity, that is the foundation of a pyramid and We should all know that the pyramid has us "on the sides" and he/Mangod is the "most high" in the middle of us do you get it? That is describing a pyramid.

"most high"> >>>>>> *
* *
"us" on the sides>> ****

We are the foundation and they are at the top sitting on our shoulders manipulating us.


That is a description of the bottomless pit in the bible, Satan is the keeper of the key to the bottomless pit.

[tannah]

No, but thats where it comes from.

So Christ isn't Jesus? Or are you say the origin of Jesus is the bible?
Many books mention the sayings of Jesus before the bible came along.

I'll keep it to small sentences with you as you tend to choose very small slithers of text to respond to.

[tannah]

Unfortunatly it is a secret in these days, a message like this spread throughout all religions would destroy the trap we are in.

Thats why Yahawashi was killed, a select few who ran the temples lost a lot of money once he said that god's temple is the world and there is no need to sacrifice(therefore taking away the temple masters revenue.)

If the so called "priest,clerics" etc. spread the true word of god and not the dogma that was written after the prophets have died things would be very different.

Moses, Jesus , Mohammed these three were all Muslim, They all believed in Allah , This was the foundation of Judaism, Then Christianity and Islam. The belief in the one all knowing most benovelent. Not a trinity, that is the foundation of a pyramid and We should all know that the pyramid has us "on the sides" and he/Mangod is the "most high" in the middle of us do you get it? That is describing a pyramid.

"most high"> >>>>>> *
* *
"us" on the sides>> ****

We are the foundation and they are at the top sitting on our shoulders manipulating us.


That is a description of the bottomless pit in the bible, Satan is the keeper of the key to the bottomless pit.

Good post. The ego needs a god too, and it is always a sure bet that the god serving the desires of the people who are not united is a god with the exemplary ego to inspire the little egos. Nowadays politicians play that role, and of course they have god on their side.

[phildee3]

No, but thats where it comes from.

Nonsense.
The Bible is a narrative.
It speaks about Christ. The writers of the Bible didn't create the concept!

[bendoon]

It speaks about Christ. The writers of the Bible didn't create the concept!

Go on then, enlighten us as to who did.

So Christ isn't Jesus? Or are you say the origin of Jesus is the bible?
Many books mention the sayings of Jesus before the bible came along.

The idea comes from the Israelites before the Bible was written down and collected into one book, yes, but its still a "Biblical" idea.

I'll keep it to small sentences with you as you tend to choose very small slithers of text to respond to.

I can't see the point in writing pages of meaningless waffle when something can be answered in one sentence

[phildee3]

Go on then, enlighten us as to who did.



Don't need to -
you said it:


The idea comes from the Israelites before the Bible was written down and collected into one book, yes,





but its still a "Biblical" idea.



It's also a "Southern Baptist" idea.

If the Bible had never been written, the concept would still exist -
therefore it's not a "Biblical" concept.

[tannah]

The idea comes from the Israelites before the Bible was written down and collected into one book, yes, but its still a "Biblical" idea.

I see. so the Torah is the word of God, and Christianity predates Jesus? Do you think it might also predate the Israelites? Like the ressurection myth of Inanna and Dumazi, for example.


I can't see the point in writing pages of meaningless waffle when something can be answered in one sentence

No one's asking you to write meaningless waffle, like some of our born-agains around here.

[bendoon]

I see. so the Torah is the word of God

The Torah is the Pentachuk (sp), the Talmud and the Midrash, so no, not entirely.

[michael christopher]

Good post. The ego needs a god too, and it is always a sure bet that the god serving the desires of the people who are not united is a god with the exemplary ego to inspire the little egos. Nowadays politicians play that role, and of course they have god on their side.

All gods are extreme manifestations of the ego. God isn't separate from it, but God is a picture of it. That which men strive most to be like, they make into a God, and the way that God acts is the way men warp their egos around the idea.

[tannah]

The Torah is the Pentachuk (sp), the Talmud and the Midrash, so no, not entirely.

Well you say the idea came from the Israelites, and they still wait, so where is the link between Jesus and the Israelites in connection with Christ, so that you can claim it's biblical?

I'm also looking into more data that shows the idea of a saviour originated in Sumaria.

Why are you so sure that Christ is exclusively biblical? It's been claimed that the actual word "Christ" comes from the Egyption word "Krst,/Karest".


THE NAME AND NATURE OF THE CHRIST.

――――♦――――


HAVING stated in my lecture on "The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ" that the Egyptian hieroglyphics were never read by the Greeks or Romans, I have been challenged to show how the Mythos, which was shrouded in a dead language, could, in its astronomical and mystical phases, have been reproduced in Greece and Rome if, as I have asserted, the Greeks and Romans did not read the hieroglyphics.

My answer is that the Mythos and the gnosis of its doctrines were carried out of Egypt into Persia or Chaldea, Palestine, Greece, and Rome by the underground passage of the Mysteries, which were continued as Essenic, Mithraic, Hellenist, and Christian, by all who were initiated knowers belonging to the various societies and sects of the Gnostics; for, whatsoever the race or religion, they were all Gnostics, as the masters of those who knew. It is to Egypt we must turn for our anchorage in fundamental facts, and to the Gnostics for a true interpretation of the facts which have been falsified to become the basis of historic Christianity. This is our one way of getting at the origin of the Christ by nature and by name. The historic representation was mythical and mystical before it was made historical.

The Christ was pre-extant as a typical teacher, the Word of Truth, Logos, or Manifestor of the divine nature in humanity; but this was not in any one particular personality. The humanisers of the Mythos set up that personality as Jesus the Christ, and then attributed to him the sayings and parables and the mythical miracles that were also pre-extant.

The Gnosis had three phases—astronomical, spiritual, and doctrinal, and all three can be identified with the Christ of Egypt. In the astronomical phase the constellation Orion is called the Sahu, or mummy. The soul of Horus was represented as rising from the dead and ascending to heaven in the stars of Orion. The mummy-image was the preserved one, the saved, therefore a portrait of the Saviour, as a type of immortality. This was the figure of a dead man, which, as Plutarch and Herodotus tell us, was carried round at an Egyptian banquet when the guests were invited to look on it and eat and drink and be happy, because, when they died, they would become what the image symbolised—that is, they also would he immortal! This type of immortality was called the Karest, or Karust, and it was the Egyptian Christ. To Kares means to embalm, anoint, to make the Mummy as a type of the eternal; and, when made, it was called the Karest; so that this is not merely a matter of name for name, the Karest for the Christ.

We are able to get beyond a Greek word signifying the anointed, or greased; we can here identify a determinative in the domain of things.

This image of the Karest was bound up in a woof without a seam, the proper vesture of the Christ! No matter what the length of the bandage might be, and some of the mummy-swathes have been unwound that were 1,000 yards in length, the woof was from beginning to end without a seam. The god Osiris or Horus is made into the Karest as preparer of the way for the souls in the underworld, that "All the dead should have passages made to him through his embalment" (Rit. Ch., 162)—that is, through his being the mythical and typical Christ: in one aspect the sun of the resurrection at Easter. Now, this seamless robe of the Egyptian Karest is a very tell-tale type of the mystical Christ, who becomes historic in the Gospels as the wearer of a coat or chiton, made without a seam, which neither the Greek nor the Hebrew fully explains, but which is explained by the Eyptian Ketu for the woof, and by the seamless robe or swathing without seam that was made for eternal wear and worn by the Mummy-Christ, the image of immortality in the tombs of Egypt.

When the woman anoints Jesus with an alabaster cruise of very costly spikenard, and the disciples murmur at the waste, he says: "She hath wrought a good work; she hath anointed my body aforehand for the burying"—or, she did it to prepare me for burial. A mode of making the Mummy-Christ beforehand! Further, Jesus is put to death in accordance with the instructions given for making the Karest. Not a bone must be broken. The true Karest must be perfect in every member. "This is he who comes out sound; whom men know not is his name."

In the Gospels Jesus rises again with every member sound, like the perfectly-preserved Karest, to demonstrate the physical resurrection of the mummy. But, in the Egyptian original, the mummy transforms. The deceased says: "I am spiritualised. I am become a soul. I rise as a God." This transformation into the spiritual image, the Ka, has been omitted in the Gospel, and, as a result, the Christian Christ is neither physical nor spiritual; the Gnostic types having been continued without the Gnosis.

Not only is Jesus, the Canonical Christ, represented by the mummy-image, he is also described in "The History of Joseph the Carpenter" as ordering the old man to he mummified. No worm or smell of death is to proceed from his body. Not a bone of it is to be broken; not a hair is to be changed; no part of it is to perish; mummy-like, it is to remain entire and uncorrupted until the Banquet of a thousand years. And when they came where the body was laid, and brought the mourning garments to wrap the corpse in, according to the Jewish mode of burial, they found that Joseph held his shroud as if it were fastened; for so did it adhere to his body that, when they desired to take it off, it was immovable and inseparable. Nor could they find any edges in the shroud (ch. 27). He also was bound up in the seamless robe of the mummy.

My contention, or rather explanation, is that the author of the Christian name is the Mummy-Christ of Egypt, called the Karest, which was a type of the immortal spirit in man, the Christ within (as Paul has it), the divine offspring incarnated, the Logos, the Word of Truth, the Makheru of Egypt. It did not originate as a mere type! The preserved mummy was the dead body of any one that was Karest, or mummified, to be kept by the living ; and, through constant repetition, this became a type of the resurrection from (not of!) the dead.

The corpse of the Hottentot anointed with ochre, or that of the Red Indian painted thick with the trader's vermillion, or even the doll carried by the Chippewa Widow to represent her dead husband, is a type of the preserved deceased, that has the same significance as the Karest, or the Christified Image which preceded the Crucified by thousands of years.

Not one of the meanings assigned to the Christian name can be traced to the historic character. The Gnostic form of the name Chrest, or Chrestos, denotes the Good God, not a human original, and from that we derive the Latin Chrestianus, signifying sweetness, goodness, or benignity; an early version of Matthew Arnold's "Sweetness and Light." The Chrestoi, as the Good people, were pre extant. Numerous Greek inscriptions show that the departed, the hero, the saintly one—that is, the "Good"—was styled Chrestos, or the Christ; and from this meaning of the "Good" does Justin, the primal apologist, derive the Christian name. This identifies it with the Gnostic source, and with the "Good God" who revealed himself according to Marcion—that is, the Un-Nefer or Good-opener of the Egyptian theology.

In the process of setting forth the Christ as an historic character he is made to repudiate this title of the "Good." "Why callest thou me the good?" Which exhibits the Christ of the Gnosis in the act of divesting himself of divinity in the course of being humanised.

The Christ was represented by a figure that was both male and female, as it appears in the Book of Revelation, and is also portrayed in the Christian Iconography. Cyril of Jerusalem says the Christians call the Anointed One Male-female. That is the same type of both sexes as the epicene Horus, Venus Barbatus, the horned Astarte, the Assyrian Zikarat, the Male-ess, the masculine goddess Neith, the mummy, and many other representatives of the biune being, the personified spirit of either sex. It was continued as the Christ of both sexes and the male-female Sophia. But this type could not be made real in historic personality, except as an hermaphrodite. The Androgynous Christ, like the Karest, is of necessity non-historic, and a mystical type that can only be explained by the Gnosis, not by the history. Tertullian tells us that the Christian name was derived from "unction;" in this case, as Miss Dunstable says, "ointment did it." And in the Clementine Recognitions it is announced that the father anointed his son with "oil that was taken from the wood of the Tree of Life, and from this anointing he is called the Christ;" whence the Christian name. This again is Egyptian. Horus was the anointed son of the father. The mode of anointing him from the Tree of Life, portrayed on the monuments, is very primitive indeed; and the Horus of Egypt was continued in the Gnostic Christ, who is reproduced upon the Gnostic stones as the intermediate link betwixt the Karest and the Christ, also as the Horus of both sexes.

By means of the Karest type the Christ and the Christians can both he traced in the ancient tombs of Egypt. The mummy was made in this likeness of the Christ. It was the Christ by name, identical with the Chrestoi of the Greek Inscriptions. Thus the honoured dead, who rose again as the followers of Horus-Makheru, the Word of Truth, are found to be the Christians,

on the Egyptian monuments. Ma-Kheru is the term that is always applied to the faithful ones who win the crown of life and wear it at the festival which is. designated "Come thou to me"—an invitation by Horus the Justifier to those who are the " Blessed ones of his father, Osiris"—they who, having made the Word of Truth the law of their lives, were the justified =

the Christians, on earth.


The original form of the Christ-name is Chrestos, not Christus. In Boekh's "Christian Inscriptions," numbering 1287, there is no single instance of an earlier date than the third century wherein the name is not written Chrest or Chreist. In the time of Lactantius the name was pronounced Chréstus, and he tells us that the change of the word from Chrést to Christ was an ignorant error. The Latin Chréstiani is still represented by the French Chrétiens, in which the s is abraded. Chrest, and not Christ, is also the Gnostic form of the name; and the Gnostics were the true Christians, who preserved the types, the doctrines, the hidden wisdom, including the sacred names, in all purity and sanctity. This spelling of the name as Chrest or Chrést in Latin is supremely important, because it enables me to prove the identity with the Egyptian Karest or Karust, the name of the Christ as the embalmed mummy, which was the image of the resurrection in Egyptian tombs, the type of immortality, the likeness of the Horus, who rose again and made the pathway out of the sepulchre for those who were his disciples or followers. Moreover, this type of the Karast or Mummy-Christ is reproduced in the catacombs of Rome. No representation of the supposed historic resurrection of Jesus has been found on any of the early Christian monuments. But, instead of the missing fact, we find the scene of Lazarus being raised from the dead. This is depicted over and over again as the typical resurrection where there is no real one! The scene is not exactly in accordance with the rising from the grave in the Gospel. It is purely Egyptian, and Lazarus is an Egyptian mummy! Thus Lazarus, in each representation, is the mummy-type of the resurrection; Lazarus is the Karest, who was the Egyptian Christ, and who is reproduced by Gnostic art in the Catacombs of Rome as a form of the Gnostic Christ, who was not and could not become an historical character.

Further, as the thing is Egyptian, it is probable that the name is derived from Egyptian. If so, Laz (equal to Ras) means to be raised up, while aru is the mummy by name. With the Greek terminal s this becomes Lazarus. In the course of humanising the mythos the typical representation of the resurrection found in the tombs of Rome and Egypt would become the story of Lazarus being raised from the dead. This Karast type of the Christ in the Catacombs is not limited to Lazarus.

In a fifth century representation of the Madonna and child from the cemetery of St. Valentinus, the new-born babe lying in a box or crib is also the Karest, or mummy-type, further identified as the divine babe of the solar mythos by the disk of the sun and the cross of the equinox at the back of the infant's head. Thus the child-Christ of the historic faith is born, and visibly begins in the Karest image of the dead Christ, which was the mummy-type of the resurrection in Egypt for thousands of years before the Christian era. This doubles the proof that the Christ of the Christian Catacombs was a survival of the Karest of Egypt.

Moreover, as Didron shows, there was a portrait of the Christ who had his body painted red! It was a popular tradition that the Christ was of a red complexion. This, too, may be explained as a survival of the Mummy-Christ. It was an aboriginal mode of rendering things tapu by colouring them red. The dead corpse was coated with red ochre—a very primitive mode of making the mummy, or the anointed one. Thus the God Ptah tells Rameses II. that he has "re-fashioned his flesh in vermillion." Besides which, the Initiated in the Greek mysteries were daubed or anointed with clay (Demosthenes, "De Corona," 313). This anointing with red ochre is called Kura by the Maori, who likewise made the Karest or Christ.

We see the mummy-image continued on another line of descent when we learn that, among other pernicious heresies and deadly sins with which the Knights Templars were charged, was the impious custom of adoring a Mummy that had red eyes. Their Idol, called Baphomet, is also thought to have been a mummy.

The ground-root of a really religious feeling was first planted with the buried dead. It was the departed who opened the door of another life and left it just ajar for those who remained behind. This is continually the case with us in our own individual lives, and such was the common experience in the remotest past. By this root in the grave the dead communicated with the living. Hence the first holy places were made sacred to the living by the dead. The earliest sanctuaries of the living were the resting-places of the dead. The primary cause of settling down to the work of civilisation was the clinging to, and being clung to by, the dead. The primal ownership of land was invested in the dead. The tomb was the first temple, and the temple was at the centre, the heart, of future cities. The grave-stone was the primitive altar, the sarcophagus the first communion table. The Mummy was the earliest human image of the Christ.

I do not doubt that the ancient Roman festivals called the Charistia were connected in their origin with the Karest and the Eucharist as a celebration in honour of the manes of their departed kith and kin, for whose sakes they became reconciled at the friendly gathering once a year.

It is here, then, we have to seek the essential connection between the Egyptian Christ, the Christians, and the Roman Catacombs. These Christian Mysteries, ignorantly explained to be inexplicable, can be explained by Gnosticism and Mythology, but in no other way. It is not that they are insoluble by human reason, as their incompetent, howsoever highly paid, expounders now-a-days pretend. That is but the puerile apology of the unqualified for their own helpless ignorance—they who have never been in possession of the gnosis or science of the Mysteries by which alone these things can be explained in accordance with their natural genesis. In Egypt only can we read the matter to the root, or identify the origin of the Christ by nature and by name, to find at last that the Christ was the Mummy-type, and that our Christology is mummified mythology.

GERALD MASSEY.


[Since the foregoing was written Mr. Massey has forwarded the following note.—As I am desirous of getting within striking distance of the historic Christians, you are at liberty to do all you can in challenging a reply to my article on 'The Nature of the Christ' from the Bench of Bishops, Revisors, Egyptologists, or other defenders of the historic faith."]

http://gerald-massey.org.uk/Massey/cpr_nature_of_the_christ_.htm

[michael christopher]

Well you say the idea came from the Israelites, and they still wait, so where is the link between Jesus and the Israelites in connection with Christ, so that you can claim it's biblical?

I'm also looking into more data that shows the idea of a saviour originated in Sumaria.

Why are you so sure that Christ is exclusively biblical? It's been claimed that the actual word "Christ" comes from the Egyption word "Krst,/Karest".

I'm also of the opinion that Krishna is quite obviously the same spirit as Christ.

[tannah]

I'm also of the opinion that Krishna is quite obviously the same spirit as Christ.

Yes, thanks for the reminder.

[ben87]

The idea of Christ came from the israelites. The true story has been mixed in with stories of the solar deity(s) to form the stories in the bible.

Mithra(Mazda)/Krisha/Quetzocoatl/Horus/Dionysus, all these "prophets" die and are ressurected in 3 days on the 25 of december.

The three magi/wise men in the bible are the three stars pointing to the sun on the 25th. (they follow the star((sun)) to where they find the "messiah")

what about mary magdalene/Ishtar/Easter. What have easter eggs got to with Mary magdalene? If my memory serves me correct Ishtar/Astarte/Easter festival was celebrated by rolling eggs down a hill,painting them and hiding them to be found later.

A-start-e= The start of life? Ishtar/Easter was the first being/god.

Ishtar/Astarte resided in the House of the Raised Head (Salome/Mary/Ishtar/Astarte/Easter) chopped of John the Baptists head and then raised it in a ceremony). The house of the raised head was on top of the tower of babel (entemenaki).

[ben87]

Ishtar was represtented by a eight pointed star.

The al-aqsa mosque is built on a octagonal foundation that some believe to be the foundation of solomons second temple (second tower of babel?).

[tannah]

The idea of Christ came from the israelites. The true story has been mixed in with stories of the solar deity(s) to form the stories in the bible.

Mithra(Mazda)/Krisha/Quetzocoatl/Horus/Dionysus, all these "prophets" die and are ressurected in 3 days on the 25 of december.

The three magi/wise men in the bible are the three stars pointing to the sun on the 25th. (they follow the star((sun)) to where they find the "messiah")

what about mary magdalene/Ishtar/Easter. What have easter eggs got to with Mary magdalene? If my memory serves me correct Ishtar/Astarte/Easter festival was celebrated by rolling eggs down a hill,painting them and hiding them to be found later.

A-start-e= The start of life? Ishtar/Easter was the first being/god.

Ishtar/Astarte resided in the House of the Raised Head (Salome/Mary/Ishtar/Astarte/Easter) chopped of John the Baptists head and then raised it in a ceremony). The house of the raised head was on top of the tower of babel (entemenaki).

All it tells me is that there is something within that is common to all.
Some want to possess it and give it a label that is exclusive to their own culture. But God's Spirit isn't really cultural. So there is only one objective truth, that from the source we come and to the source we return.

As true as we are related and united intrinsically by the one objective law, this is the very experience that awaits us all, to recognize ourselves and each other within the reality of God.

[ben87]

My post comes across as incomplete without the story of Yahawashi.

It isn't one culture claiming it as theirs, its more so that these other cultures are turning their backs of the true lessons and living their lives in a way which is contradicting the beliefs that they profess to adhere to.

Certain cultures (religions) contain most of the true messages that we were sent, others have edited these things out of their books (bible) and that is why the cultures are calling for the other cultures to return to the original lessons.

They are trying to unify us all, but some people dont want to accept that.

[thereisonlywe]

My post comes across as incomplete without the story of Yahawashi.

It isn't one culture claiming it as theirs, its more so that these other cultures are turning their backs of the true lessons and living their lives in a way which is contradicting the beliefs that they profess to adhere to.

Certain cultures (religions) contain most of the true messages that we were sent, others have edited these things out of their books (bible) and that is why the cultures are calling for the other cultures to return to the original lessons.

They are trying to unify us all, but some people dont want to accept that.

That is what we call worshiping a name instead of the Truth. It doesn't have to be Jesus. Most say I obey God, and when you show them what God says they don't even look at it. Why? Because what he worships is his god, his imaginary god. He doesn't want to change it. Fears change because he is used to living like this and doesn't want to hear new rules etc... All his defense mechanisms work in order to assure him he is defending religion by this act of his. But he is not.

Love&Peace

[tannah]

Hey BENDOON.......yoohooooo?? you said the idea of Christ originated with the Israelites. I suggest you read Massey's article a few times till you understand it


THE NAME AND NATURE OF THE CHRIST.

GERALD MASSEY.


[Since the foregoing was written Mr. Massey has forwarded the following note.—As I am desirous of getting within striking distance of the historic Christians, you are at liberty to do all you can in challenging a reply to my article on 'The Nature of the Christ' from the Bench of Bishops, Revisors, Egyptologists, or other defenders of the historic faith."]

http://gerald-massey.org.uk/Massey/c...he_christ_.htm

[bendoon]

Hey BENDOON.......yoohooooo?? you said the idea of Christ originated with the Israelites. I suggest you read Massey's article a few times till you understand it

From the website;

This web site is dedicated to the life and work of the Chartist, poet, author, and free thinker, Gerald Massey,

I don't rate anyone who is supposedly a free thinker, they are usually too far up their own rectum to think clearly.

[michael christopher]

From the website;



I don't rate anyone who is supposedly a free thinker, they are usually too far up their own rectum to think clearly.

I suppose you prefer non-thinkers or enslaved thinkers? :)

[ben87]

That is what we call worshiping a name instead of the Truth. It doesn't have to be Jesus. Most say I obey God, and when you show them what God says they don't even look at it. Why? Because what he worships is his god, his imaginary god. He doesn't want to change it. Fears change because he is used to living like this and doesn't want to hear new rules etc... All his defense mechanisms work in order to assure him he is defending religion by this act of his. But he is not.

Love&Peace

Its called Idol worship, they edited the 10 commandments so that they could worship Idols after he died.

[tannah]

From the website;



I don't rate anyone who is supposedly a free thinker, they are usually too far up their own rectum to think clearly.

Well I can only feel pity for that response. If that is your standard for seeking truth, I'd say your happy to lie to yourself.

[bendoon]

Well I can only feel pity for that response. If that is your standard for seeking truth, I'd say your happy to lie to yourself.

My basis for seeking truth is not based on the ideas of a poet and self taught egyptologist, the reason we are in the current mess is listening to other men rather than God.

[tannah]

My basis for seeking truth is not based on the ideas of a poet and self taught egyptologist, the reason we are in the current mess is listening to other men rather than God.

LOL! You're tooooo much. Yes, try listening to God rather than the self styled mythsters of the bible. Iif you listen to Jehovah he's got the biggest fucking mess in history planned....just how you like it.

Anyway, it's quite obvious you're wrong about the origin of the word Christ, so no need to say anything else.

[ben87]

My basis for seeking truth is not based on the ideas of a poet and self taught egyptologist, the reason we are in the current mess is listening to other men rather than God.

How can you not listen to other men when the word of god comes from them?

[measle_weasel]

How can you not listen to other men when the word of god comes from them?
Good question right there.

Bet you bendoon will ignore it :)

[thereisonlywe]

Good question right there.

Bet you bendoon will ignore it :)

: )

One has to accept the message in all forms. Sometimes it is even possible to learn something from an ant.

Love&Peace

[measle_weasel]

Good question right there.

Bet you bendoon will ignore it :)
Guess I was right :D

[nirvana]

Jesus's father is our father its called the collective consciousness. :)

[willnotbesilenced]

GOD is Yeshua`s father....

unless of course you believe that God was lying when He said :

THIS IS `MY SON` IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED.


Based on the current FALSE notions of the church - then surely God should
have said : `this is ME down there, and I`m pleased with myself`

Not being disrespectful here - just proving a point : Yeshua`s FATHER
is GOD.


When Yeshua`s disciples asked Him when these things would occur (aka: His return) did Yeshua not tell them, that no man knew the hour, not the angels, NOR THE SON, BUT THE FATHER ONLY.
Had Yeshua been God He would have been able to tell them.
Yeshua did NOT know because Yeshua is the SON.


When satan tempted Yeshua in the wilderness - WHO exactly was he
tempting and WHY ?

What would have been the point of trying to tempt GOD ?

Now, Yeshua being the Son of God..... was from satan`s standpoint
worth the effort.
Yeshua was `the second Adam`
Satan had succeeded in causing Adam to fall from grace with God.
He therefore tried to get Yeshua to do the same.
As we know satan FAILED miserably.
Yeshua quoted from the Scripture : IT IS WRITTEN, THOU SHALT WORSHIP
GOD ONLY. (paraphrased)


When someone called Yeshua `good`
Did Yeshua not question and say: `why callest thou ME good, NONE is
good except GOD`
That was Yeshua`s humility, He didnt ever say He was God - He prayed TO
HIS FATHER..... He cried out TO HIS FATHER from the cross....
and He asked HIS FATHER : `FATHER forgive them`
Had He been God He could have said : `I forgive you`

[willnotbesilenced]

Yeshua taught His disciples `the model prayer` :

He said pray :

`OUR FATHER` who art in heaven
Hallowed be THY Name.
THY kingdom come, THY will be done

ect ect.




1 Corinthians 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ IS GOD.




Matthew 16:13-20

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

[willnotbesilenced]

There still remains the question : that whilst Yeshua was NOT God /the Father - but rather `THE SON` and `THE SON OF MAN` (A TERM WHICH
YESHUA USED) then WHAT is GOD`S NAME.

I came under critism for saying : Yahweh in the other thread.

However, the Jews have always used YHWH or G*D when referring to
the Father, the Divine being and Creator of the universe.

Although I do appreciate that various FALSE doctorines have crept in
via the Churches - and those who had their own agenda - then I do
still believe there is cause for looking to what the Jews say RATHER THAN
relying on what men (with agendas) decided to say and write at the
Council of Nicea during Constantine`s era.

True enough, and according to Bible translations - Yeshua didnt appear
to call God by the name Yahweh - but rather He referred to Him only as
`Father`

However, and as we know, EVERY father has a name.
I`m sure many of you call your dad `Father` - but your father DOES
have a name - and although you (as a son or daughter) say father -
in contrast your father`s friends and acquaintances would call him by
his name.

I am still not convinced that YHWH (as stipulated by the Jews is not accurate)
Judism was around long before Christianity.
We are the branch.

That said I am aware of various FALSE prophets out there who have jumped on the band wagon claiming all manner of things.

Personally I like using the word `Creator` but again its NOT a name - its
a description of what God did (aka : create)
Just as how, your fathers be may plumbers, electricians, architects even,
- being an `architect` (a designer of things) is hardly your fathers name,
but rather a description of what he does.

I therefore still believe the Jews have a bigger chance of being correct rather
than those at that Council of Nicea in Constantine`s era.
Wasnt it THEY who decided that Yeshua was God ?????????

FALSE doctorines are everywhere.... the true Christian faith as practiced
by the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS has now become entrenched with PAGANISM...... aka : christmas - easter ect. (GOOGLE the origins of
those customs AND SEE WHAT THEY REALLY ARE.)
Be aware of what you are celebrating.

[thereisonlywe]

Only through silence one sees the path.

Love&Peace

[willnotbesilenced]

Further PROOF :




Matthew 12

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come



That is solid proof.

It is abundantly clear that if we were to speak a word AGAINST YESHUA
(the Son of man) then we would be forgiven - but NOT if we speak
against God`s Holy Ghost /Holy Spirit.

Therefore IF YESHUA WAS GOD..... HOW COULD WE SEPARATE THE
TWO ???

[phildee3]

GOD is Yeshua`s father....



Yes, but who (or what) is "GOD."

[measle_weasel]

Jehovah, god of usury, too, perhaps?

(In addition to war, wrath, jealousy, holocausts, etc, of course.)

[rapunzel]

Well you say the idea came from the Israelites, and they still wait, so where is the link between Jesus and the Israelites in connection with Christ, so that you can claim it's biblical?

I'm also looking into more data that shows the idea of a saviour originated in Sumaria.

Why are you so sure that Christ is exclusively biblical? It's been claimed that the actual word "Christ" comes from the Egyption word "Krst,/Karest".

Although Gerald Massey is an interesting read one should approach his work with care. He is frequently wrong. The Egyptian word KRS or sometimes KRST means bury or burial. It has no connection with the Greek word Christos and no connection with the word "anoint" which in Egyptian is WRH.

[nectars]

Yes, but who (or what) is "GOD."

What you dont know? :eek:

[phildee3]

What you dont know? :eek:

There are alot of them.
To say that "God" is the Father of the logos is like saying "man" is mine.

[nectars]

There are alot of them.
To say that "God" is the Father of the logos is like saying "man" is mine.

I was actually being sarcastic -though granted I haven't used sarcasm in quite a while so I'm kinda rusty with it lol

[logos880]

Now, I find it funny how we can talk about any person in human history, but when it gets to Jesus, oh no no no nooooooo. No way Jesus was who He said He was right. No way the Jesus of the Bible (the real history of Jesus) is real. "I'll hold Jesus the way I prefer instead" - as if what we "prefer" or "choose" has any impact on the truth.

Ecclesiastes {1:9} The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

History keeps repeating itself, it's a hunger for power. Same old doctrines, same old belief systems, same old lies, same old sinful lifestyles and rebellion towards God from humanity.

You have summed up the entire argument here quite nicely and there is nothing that I can add to this.

I strongly disagree that `Christianity is merely veiled paganism'. Especially regarding paganism which required blood sacrifice.

However I do have a problem with the Trinity:

1. The PTB (St Paul and his minions) cut the FEMININE out of the Trinity. It should be Father, Mother, Child. Not Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Those who molded Christianity after Jesus made it into an all male bastion and completely cut women out of the priesthood.

2. The concept of the Trinity predates Christianity. Slavs worshipped the trinity their 3 headed god was TRIGLAV. The three-headed aspect of God(s) is all over paganism.

You are hitting on an important concept here about the Trinity and the counterfeit trinity. I can't remember who said this but it reconciles the Christian Trinity vs. the pagan trinity:

"For everything that has to do with the true God in Heaven the devil has created a counterfeit."

[infidelyork]

Jesus is the living God

But, he's...erm... dead.

[phildee3]

But, he's...erm... dead.

He...erm...resurrected and then ascended.

[infidelyork]

He...erm...resurrected and then ascended.

So, still dead then?....

[phildee3]

So, still dead then?....

No, still alive.

Look up "resurrect."

[infidelyork]

No, still alive.

Look up "resurrect."

Yep, did that, looked up resurrected, and then ascended, and then I looked up dead. 'Dead' seemed to fit the bill quite nicely.

I also looked up 'Weeble' at the same time just for the hell of it. Apparently "They wobble but they don't fall over". I found that infinitely more interesting than having someone trying to convince me that someone who supposedly lived over 2000 years ago is still alive.

[phildee3]

Yep, did that, looked up resurrected, and then ascended, and then I looked up dead. 'Dead' seemed to fit the bill quite nicely.

I also looked up 'Weeble' at the same time just for the hell of it. Apparently "They wobble but they don't fall over". I found that infinitely more interesting than having someone trying to convince me that someone who supposedly lived over 2000 years ago is still alive.

I totally agree.
But what I find even more interesting is the mythological reality behind the story.
But if you think "to come back to life" = "dead" then I'm not surprised you're confused.

[infidelyork]

But if you think "to come back to life" = "dead" then I'm not surprised you're confused.

No more confused than thinking 'ascended' means 'still alive'.

[phildee3]

No more confused than thinking 'ascended' means 'still alive'.

Show me a dead body of someone who's ascended then.

[infidelyork]

Show me a dead body of someone who's ascended then.

It will be a pleasure, just as soon as you provide some evidence of resurrection and ascension. :rolleyes:

[nectars]

But, he's...erm... dead.

And yet he seems to type pretty well for a dead guy ^^

[infidelyork]

And yet he seems to type pretty well for a dead guy ^^

phildee3 is Jesus?? Jesus!! :eek:

[herushura]

Jesus is a Sun God, thus he has no father, his mother is the earth goddess Virgin Mary, because the sun rises out of the horizon like a boy coming out of a vagina, virgin-Vagina are etymologicaly linked, mary is a pun derived from egyptian meri(ma-ra=Mother of Sun), the bible state who the father of jesus is, it himself, this stems of egyptian origin, Ra(sun god ) is the father of Horus(sun god), all humans know there is only one sun. The Sun Sets onto the Earth(Sungod mates with Earthgod), sun rises again(the sun-son-sun) is born. It easy to understand

[phildee3]

It will be a pleasure, just as soon as you provide some evidence of resurrection and ascension.



The resurrection and ascension mythos is to be found in almost every culture's sacred texts.

Now, where is an ascended person's dead body to be found?

[logos880]

Jesus is a Sun God, thus he has no father, his mother is the earth goddess Virgin Mary, because the sun rises out of the horizon like a boy coming out of a vagina, virgin-Vagina are etymologicaly linked, mary is a pun derived from egyptian meri(ma-ra=Mother of Sun), the bible state who the father of jesus is, it himself, this stems of egyptian origin, Ra(sun god ) is the father of Horus(sun god), all humans know there is only one sun. The Sun Sets onto the Earth(Sungod mates with Earthgod), sun rises again(the sun-son-sun) is born. It easy to understand

Jesus is the Son of God not the sun. What you're talking about is a counterfeit. The fact that the father of the Egyptian trinity, Osiris, was considered god of the dead in contrast to the living God speaks volumes.

[herushura]

Jesus is the Son of God not the sun. What you're talking about is a counterfeit. The fact that the father of the Egyptian trinity, Osiris, was considered god of the dead in contrast to the living God speaks volumes.

you have no understanding of osiris, he isnt god of the dead, he is god of the afterlife, a god who guide the spirit to heaven, they were also judged if there were bad or good, and have not killed,stolen ect, he is similer to St Peter whom await the spirit after death.

The Egyptian belief that they would live on after there are dead, it the same with christianity.
Thus why i believe that egyptian religion, chrisitanity, hinduism are infact all the same, because they are obsessed with the afterlife and getting there by restricting there lifestyle.

[infidelyork]

The resurrection and ascension mythos is to be found in almost every culture's sacred texts.

Now, where is an ascended person's dead body to be found?

You're using anecdotes as evidence? :eek:

[phildee3]

You're using anecdotes as evidence? :eek:


"An anecdote is a short, free-standing tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident. It may be as brief as the setting and provocation of a bon mot. An anecdote is always presented as based on a real incident involving actual persons, whether famous or not, usually in an identifiable place."
Anecdote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The resurrection and ascension mythos is not anecdotal.
It is not short, nor free-standing but lengthy and deeply embedded in various cultures from way back in their distant pasts.
It is not based on "real incidents involving actual persons," - rather, the (debatable) historical actuality of the characters is based on the a priori mythos.

So, no, I am not using anecdotes as evidence.

[ben87]

Infidel do you believe aliens do not exist? or do exist? are you open to the possibility?

I mean it is a profound judgement to outright say they do, or that they do not, but if they exist, what we know as a ascension may be a form of transport used by them.

If you were to leave this planet destined for another planet would you descend or ascend?

[infidelyork]

Infidel do you believe aliens do not exist? or do exist? are you open to the possibility?

I mean it is a profound judgement to outright say they do, or that they do not, but if they exist, what we know as a ascension may be a form of transport used by them.


I believe in the possibility of life on other planets, it would be arrogant to think that ours is the only planet out of billions that supports life (in whatever form). Whether or not 'ascension' is a form of transport is another matter! :)

If you were to leave this planet destined for another planet would you descend or ascend?
Well that would depend on your location and in which direction you were travelling!

[phildee3]

If you were to leave this planet destined for another planet would you descend or ascend?



That would depend on whether that planet was more dense or more rarified.

[ben87]

This planet is earth.

the sky is up, the earth is down.

[phildee3]

This planet is earth.

the sky is up, the earth is down.

Only from a geocentric perspective.
From space, sky is outwards and earth is inwards.

Anyway, we are talking about ascension which involves a raising of frequency, not direction.

[infidelyork]

This planet is earth.

the sky is up, the earth is down.

And if you keep going down, through to the other side, you'll find more sky which was 'down' from where you started.

[ben87]

Yeah, i said leave this planet destined for another, which implies taking off from the ground and going up through the atmosphere, you can argue north west or whatever you misquoted me you are chasing your own tail.

[phildee3]

And if you keep going down, through to the other side, you'll find more sky which was 'down' from where you started.

Ben is speaking strictly from a geocentric p of v.
Once you get to the middle of the earth you start going "up" again.

But you're still on the same path, going in the same direction, at the same speed. You have not changed what you were doing. How then can you be descending one minute and ascending the next? You are still the same.

[tarant8l]

Only 144000 possess the Name.

[ben87]

the 144000!

[tarant8l]

Anu (never) begot EN.LILI and EN.KI / - IHVH / ADNI

Tao knows neither Yin nor Yang.

Tao has no mother or father.

[tarant8l]

144000

The 144 000 are in possessession of the Name, but even if they would divulge it...

[nectars]

Anu (never) begot EN.LILI and EN.KI / - IHVH / ADNI

Tao knows neither Yin nor Yang.

Tao has no mother or father.

"The Father" refered to by "Jesus" is Tao, its just taken in a different context.

[logos880]

you have no understanding of osiris, he isnt god of the dead, he is god of the afterlife, a god who guide the spirit to heaven, they were also judged if there were bad or good, and have not killed,stolen ect, he is similer to St Peter whom await the spirit after death.

The Egyptian belief that they would live on after there are dead, it the same with christianity.
Thus why i believe that egyptian religion, chrisitanity, hinduism are infact all the same, because they are obsessed with the afterlife and getting there by restricting there lifestyle.

In regards to Osiris you are wrong. Egyptian religion and hinduism? Agreed. In fact, it is easy to spot this same trinity contained in Egyptian religion in almost all other religions: Babylonian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Roman, Greek etc.

Attempts to explain how Osiris, a god of the dead, could give rise to Horus, who was thought to be living, led to the development[citation needed] of the Myth of Osiris and Isis, which became a central myth in Egyptian mythology.

Osiris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Osiris god of the dead

http://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/keywords/osiris/osiris%20god%20of%20the%20dead.php

It was this legend that accounted for Osiris's role as a god of the dead and ruler of the Egyptian underworld.

http://www.greatdreams.com/osiris.htm

The oldest religious texts refer to Osiris as the great god of the dead, and throughout these texts it is assumed that the reader will understand that he once possessed human form and lived on earth.

http://news.egyptianmyths.net/osiris.htm

The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a represention of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set. This combination, Osiris-Horus, was therefore a life-death-rebirth deity, and thus associated with the new harvest each year. Afterward, Osiris became known as the Egyptian god of the dead, Isis became known as the Egyptian goddess of the children, and Horus became known as the Egyptian god of the sky.

Osiris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am very familiar with the Egyptian mystery religion and the trinity contained within. Osiris is the Egyptian god of the dead. The mystery religion is a counterfeit of Christianity, and just like a good counterfeit, it is easy to confuse the Christian Trinity with the pagan trinity. Make no mistake, Osiris is a dead god.

[phildee3]

The [Egyptian] mystery religion is a counterfeit of Christianity,



How can a counterfeit predate the original??



it is easy to confuse the Christian Trinity with the pagan trinity.



No confusion. The Christian trinity is the pagan trinity.
Read Plato. 400 BC. Identical!



Osiris is a dead god.



If Osiris is dead, he never lived.
If he ever lived, he lives still.

The gods inhabit a realm of timelessness.

[phildee3]

"The Father" refered to by "Jesus" is Tao, its just taken in a different context.

Correct.
It's called the Ayn Soph in Judaism.

[logos880]

How can a counterfeit predate the original??

How could created mythology predate the Creator?

No confusion. The Christian trinity is the pagan trinity.
Read Plato.

I have. Like I said, a living Trinity vs. a dead trinity. Not the same thing; opposites in fact.

If Osiris is dead, he never lived.
If he ever lived, he lives still.

The gods inhabit a realm of timelessness.

Read the actual mythology surrounding Osiris, Isis, and Horus. According to the Egyptian tradition, Osiris is very much dead. Read some Herodotus.

[nectars]

living Trinity

Is very much here now in operation.

[phildee3]

How could created mythology predate the Creator?



Stop trying to change the subject.
We are talking about the Egyptian mythos and the Christian one.
Christianity begins just under 2000 years ago.



Like I said, a living Trinity vs. a dead trinity. Not the same thing; opposites in fact.



It's the same trinity - father, son and holy spirit. Eternal.



Read the actual mythology surrounding Osiris, Isis, and Horus. According to the Egyptian tradition, Osiris is very much dead.



You're really on a weird one, buddy.
Osiris resurrected.

[herushura]

The trinity is pure sun worship, Son(Morning), Father(Noon), Holy Spirit(Afternoon), the proof is by looking at the Great pyramid, Morning Son rises(travels up pyramid), becomes father(top of pyramid), then as the sun sets(travels down the pyramid), the sun is dying, thus the spirit is leaving the sun.

[lightgiver]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1340/mosesn1.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/mosesn1.jpg/)

THE MYSTERY AND CONTROVERSY OF THE STORY OF MOSES - AKHENATEN:

Profile of Moses/Yeshua with references to Masonic order. (Notice pyramid and Menorah above the head) Essene priesthood, 8 pointed star again, Venus sun, traveling by sea, Lord of the Sun and Moon . (suggesting the Pharaonic order.. the royal bloodline)

http://www.greatdreams.com/moses.htm

Today you will see the fleur-de-lis used profusely on the regalia of British royalty, on official buildings and the fencing around them, and in churches. It is, appropriately, on a public gate to the White House in Washington, another home of the bloodlines. The three-leafed shamrock in Ireland is likewise an ancient symbol of the bloodline and the word shamrock comes from the North African term: shamrukh. All these symbols relate to the three horned depiction of Nimrod in Babylon and to other esoteric principles.

http://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/327440-growing-jesus-3-leaf-plant-4.html

http://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/20260-3-leaf.html ;)

and i noticed its 3 leafed, what does this mean?

Im assuming it means its a clone

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9651/1neptfrk.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/1neptfrk.jpg/)

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3253/fisht.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/fisht.jpg/)

Other Merovingian symbols were the fish (Nimrod again), the lion (Leo, the Sun, authority), and the bee. Three hundred golden bees were found on the burial cloak of King Childeric I, the son of Meroveus, who died in the 5th century. Bees are an ancient symbol of the Love Goddess (Semiramis) and symbolized royalty in Egypt. They also focus on the Queen Bee, symbolic of Isis/Semiramis.

Shamrock

Huh? What is the shamrock doing on a list of ancient Middle Eastern symbols???

According to the Woman’s Encyclopedia of Myths And Secrets, the three-lobed trefoil that we now call a shamrock originated in the East. Pre-Islamic Arabs called it shamrakh, the three-lobed lily or lotus flower of the ancient Moon-goddess’s trinity consisting of Al-Lat, Kore (or Q're) the Virgin, and Al-Uzza, the Powerful One. Together, this triple goddess was known as Manat, the Threefold Moon. To the ancient Arabs, the shamrakh represented a design of three yonis, and it appeared on artifacts of the ancient Indus Valley civilization, as well as on stone, pottery, and woodwork in Mesopotamia, Crete, and Egypt between 2300 and 1300 B.C.

http://www.shira.net/symbols.htm

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7095/shamrockg.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/shamrockg.jpg/)

Enlil is the Father of the Moon Goddess, The Symbol of Which is the Crescent Moon and The Morning Star

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7100/starandcrescentsvg.png (http://img294.imageshack.us/i/starandcrescentsvg.png/)

The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods. There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.

[logos880]

Stop trying to change the subject.
We are talking about the Egyptian mythos and the Christian one.
Christianity begins just under 2000 years ago.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus.

It's the same trinity - father, son and holy spirit. Eternal.

No it's not. Osiris was a god of the dead, the nile, and vegetation. Isis was considered mother earth. Horus is their child. Read: Water the Earth and produce vegatation. The Christian Trinity is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Of course there are similarities. But the Egyptian trinity is a counterfeit there are supposed to be similarities.

The Egyptian or pagan trinity is just a representation of the physical procreative act. Father + Mother = Child. Water + Earth = Vegetation. Stark contrast with Christianity. Horus' was not a virgin birth. Jesus' birth was a virgin birth. They are opposites.

You're really on a weird one, buddy.
Osiris resurrected.

Sure he did, just long enough to get Isis pregnant with Horus. Then he died again. Like I said, read some Herodotus or Plutarch.

The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a represention of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set. This combination, Osiris-Horus, was therefore a life-death-rebirth deity, and thus associated with the new harvest each year. Afterward, Osiris became known as the Egyptian god of the dead, Isis became known as the Egyptian goddess of the children, and Horus became known as the Egyptian god of the sky.

Osiris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In late Egyptian thought, the righteous dead were sometimes said to become the stars, and thus the moon was occasionally seen as having a connection to Osiris, lord of the dead.

"Ancient Egypt", page 137 in chapter 10 by Dr. Robert K. Ritner. Oxford University Press, 1997.

Osiris is a dead god standing in contrast to the Living God.

[logos880]

The trinity is pure sun worship, Son(Morning), Father(Noon), Holy Spirit(Afternoon), the proof is by looking at the Great pyramid, Morning Son rises(travels up pyramid), becomes father(top of pyramid), then as the sun sets(travels down the pyramid), the sun is dying, thus the spirit is leaving the sun.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The pagan trinity is about the procreative act. According to Diodorus Siculus:

Now the parts of the body of Osiris which were found were honoured with burial, they say, in the manner described above, but the privates, according to them, were thrown by Typhon into the Nile because no one of his accomplices was willing to take them. Yet Isis thought them as worthy of divine honours as the other parts, for, fashioning a likeness of them, she set it up in the temples, commanded that it be honoured, and made it the object of the highest regard and reverence in the rites and sacrifices accorded to the god. 7 Consequently the Greeks too, inasmuch as they received from Egypt the celebrations of the orgies and the festivals connected with Dionysus, honour this member in both the mysteries and the initiatory rites and sacrifices of this god, giving it the name "phallus."

So the Egyptians worshiped Osiris' (father of said trinity) phallus with orgies. Does that sound like sun worship to you? Was the sun involved? Sure it was but the focus of worship was on the physical procreative act.

The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods. There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.

The five pointed star (pentagram) is a Sumerian symbol that was representative of Venus and Ishtar.

The first known uses of the pentagram are found in Mesopotamian writings dating to about 3000 BC. The Sumerian pentagrams served as pictograms for the word "UB" meaning "corner, angle, nook; a small room, cavity, hole; pitfall," suggesting something very similar to the pentemychos (see below on the Pythagorean use for what pentemychos means). In René Labat's index system of Sumerian hieroglyphs/pictograms it is shown with two points up.[6] In the Babylonian context, the edges of the pentagram were probably orientations: forward, backward, left, right, and "above".[7] These directions also had an astrological meaning, representing the five planets Jupiter, Mercury, Mars and Saturn, and Venus as the "Queen of Heaven" (Ishtar) above.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Venus_pentagram.png/480px-Venus_pentagram.png

The pentagram was derived from the orbit of Venus hence why it was associated with Ishtar and Venus.

[herushura]

there is niether a living trinity knor a dead trinity because they are pure fairy tail based on sun worship.

[logos880]

there is niether a living trinity knor a dead trinity because they are pure fairy tail based on sun worship.

You keep saying this but you have shown absolutely no proof, no quotes, or citations...not even any good insights.

[phildee3]

The Word is Jesus.



The Word (aka logos), which existed from the "beginning" (if eternity can have a "beginning"), became Jesus.

Jesus was born 2000 years ago. The story of Jesus is no more than 2000 years old and is based on earlier stories, the Osiris myth being one of them.

The Word is the second person in Plato's trinity - written about 400 years before it incarnated in Jesus.

The Trinity is eternally living - the source, the logos and the spirit - and was known of even before Plato wrote about it.

[logos880]

The Word (aka logos), which existed from the "beginning" (if eternity can have a "beginning"), became Jesus.

Fair enough, I can agree with that.

Jesus was born 2000 years ago. The story of Jesus is no more than 2000 years old and is based on earlier stories, the Osiris myth being one of them.

Like I've already shown, Jesus and Osiris/Horus are not the same. They are opposites. Care to show some proof of this other than your own words?

The Word is the second person in Plato's trinity - written about 400 years before it incarnated in Jesus.

The Trinity is eternally living - the source, the logos and the spirit - and was known of even before Plato wrote about it.

There are two trinity's. A living trinity and a dead trinity.

[herushura]

You keep saying this but you have shown absolutely no proof, no quotes, or citations...not even any good insights.

take a look at Greek and egytpian religious Art, and how they display the sun, ps, its hard to add quotes and stuff as i am using a ps3 at the moment

[phildee3]

Like I've already shown, Jesus and Osiris/Horus are not the same.



I never said they are "the same" - just that the resurrection archetype is present in both of them.

[phildee3]

take a look at Greek and egytpian religious Art, and how they display the sun,



How does this support your assertion that there is no trinity?

[logos880]

I never said they are "the same" - just that the resurrection archetype is present in both of them.

I agree with that...both are considered life-death-rebirth deities.

[logos880]

take a look at Greek and egytpian religious Art, and how they display the sun,

How does this support your assertion that there is no trinity?

Yes, do tell.

[aejor_mn]

In determining who Jesus' Father is, let us first acknowledge as I have written prior why yahoweh(Jehova) is NOT JESUS's FATHER nor our True God.
Yahweh is merely a title for "lord" and dare I say a Pharisee Judaen disguise of satan desiring to be worshipped as God. No different than Judas Iscariot becoming a devil with satan inside him to betray The Christ as Jesus HIMSELF STATED in the testimony of JOHN. Jesus told you that they are of their father the devil and that judas has the devil in him.

This is quite easily recognized because they called God, Elohim (all powerful one) then in Geneses 2:4 they call God "yahweh elohim" for lord God, see?
They did this because in hebrew elohim is close to the same writing as I AM as told to Moses by God. (ALHYM/AHYM). So they decided to use the lesser title of lord

Study the following carefully and then you will understand more manna for your Spirit of Self Preservation with The Christ.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created heaven and earth
Genesis 2:4
4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:

Torah Genesis ch 1
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ. 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.

אֵלֶּה תוֹלְדוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ, בְּהִבָּרְאָם: בְּיוֹם, עֲשׂוֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים--אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם. 4
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

in the day that Yahweh Elohim made the earth and heaven.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen2.pdf

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

King James Bible; New Testament;

John.1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. 9 That was the true light, which enlightens every man that comes into this world.

I baptize with water: but there has stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not. 27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose.

29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him; and he says: Behold the Lamb of God.

32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: He upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizes with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw: and I gave testimony that this is the Son of God.

51 And he said to him: Amen, amen, I say to you, you shall see the heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

John 1;ch 3:13
And no man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

John 1; ch 6:38
Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he has given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who sees the Son and believes in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day."

46 Not that any man has seen the Father; but he who is of God, he has seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen, I say unto you:

John Chapter 8 verse 13.

13 The Pharisees therefore said to him: You give testimony of yourself. Your testimony is not true. 14 Jesus answered and said to them: Although I give testimony of myself, my testimony is true: for I know whence I came and whither I go. 15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man. 16 And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 And in your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me gives testimony of me. 19 They said therefore to him: Where is your Father? Jesus answered: Neither me do you know, nor my Father. If you did know me, perhaps you would know my Father also.

21 Again therefore Jesus said to them: I go: and you shall seek me. And you shall die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come. 22 The Jews therefore said: Will he kill himself, because he said: Where I go you cannot come? 23 And he said to them: You are from beneath: I am from above. You are of this world: I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin. 25 They said therefore to him: Who are you? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you. 26 Many things I have to speak and to judge of you. But he that sent me, is true: and the things I have heard of him, these same I speak in the world. 27 And they understood not that he called God his Father. 28 Jesus therefore said to them: When you shall have lifted up, the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he and that I do nothing of myself. But as the Father has taught me, these things I speak. 29 And he that sent me is with me: and he has not left me alone. For I do always the things that please him. 30 When he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham: and we have never been slaves to any man. How do you say: You shall be free? 34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen, I say unto you that whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. 35 Now the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the son abides for ever. 36 If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. 37 I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus says them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not. 41 You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded and came. For I came not of myself: but he sent me. 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil: and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning: and he stood not in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not. 46 Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me: 47 He that is of God hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.

http://newadvent.org/bible/joh008.htm

Matthew ch 3:13
13 Then comes Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by you, and you come to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Allow it to be so now. For so it becomes us to fulfil all justice. Then he allowed him. 16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Son of Man is The Trinity known as The Father,The Son and The Holy Ghost.
The Son of Man in reality IS BORN in Heaven OF the Father. He is God's First Son of Man.
God is a Man, thus Son of Man in Heaven and Son of Man for our Earth as The Chosen Christ.
Throughout time, many Sons of Man have appeared in certain and specific Ages. Jesus was One of Many, but they are ALL THE SAME.

Jesus says in John as posted above that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. This is the TRINITY where the Union is the Holy Spirit.

That is what the Pharisee illuminati of satan's servants try to destroy in all of you, that is The Power of Your Spirit. Which is what they try to steal from you by their murderous rituals or mass murders (wars,911,etc) in hopes of "transcendental illumination with satan's powers" for themselves. In other words, evil spirits, demons or this "reptillian" terminology today.
That is part of our awakening today in understanding the greatness, power and freedoms of our Spirits. An example is that when we have sex, it's sex. When we make love we are advancing our Spirits to a higher level of energy that becomes Ultra magnified. Seldom do many ever experience this, which is part of that hidden power that satan's servants (nwo = zmo = zionist masonic oligarchy = pharisees) do not want you to achieve.

For through our Spiritual Power we can become self existant and sustained and United in Spirit with The Christ, which is why Christ's food sustains you.

Do you understand the Son of Man, The Trinity and Spiritual power now?

I believe another "chosen Son of Man" known as "Philitis The Shepherd" whom I call Jesa The Pure, was murdered on Dec.10th, 3474.bC.
I also have always believed in Jesus since childhood. I don't believe Jesus is jewish or has anything to do with the Judaen Pharisees as he himself says.
These Judaen Pharisees are your illuminati today who go by many names, religions and nations. (zionists,jesuits,rosicrucians,oto,satanists,etc.)
They gained all their power from Egypt and with the Phoenicians who are the "Dark Brothers" or "unruly evil Atlanteans", hence Pharisees, Pharaohs, Philos,PhreeMasons etc.(5500 years)

Let us proceed to Jesus' Father who is I AM as He Himself told you in John and ask yourselves this very important questions;

"Why was John the Chosen one to Baptise The Christ?"
"Why does Jesus often start off a sentence with; AMEN, AMEN, I say unto you!"?
"Why does AMEN in Egypt mean "The Hidden One"?
"Why is AMEN the oldest Egyptian God and why were the Egyptians the most advanced culture that ALL secret societies look to?"
"Who is I AM?"

Well, I have already explained all this in my other thread in David Icke's religion topic and this two pictures should be enough for you to know Jesus's Father and Our Trinity.

https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/Ja_Great_Pyramid_Cairo.bmp

https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/The%20Ga24.jpg


He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

Paulo Riven
AeJor Mn
SaJaRa-AeJa Mn

Sword of Avila
King of The Double Falcons
Obsidian Dragon Slayer
Opener of The Ways
Revealer of Revelations
Water of The Garden of Avila

3:38 PM 5/27/2010

[aejor_mn]

To be clear, I am speaking of Jesus' Father as being God our Creator and not of an Earthly form like Joseph, or whatever one may think.

Quite simply they must have known that God's Name is JA or correctly JA MN, which reflects I AM and AMEN. Ja Mn is a proper name in meaning, for example JA means one who is, has knowledge, is born, exists, etc, while Mn is mind, memory,being,exists,etc. JA = Ya for their languages and IA for the Greeks. J,I and Y interchange.
What they did is altered His last name with the H branding of hveh or howeh meaning "to become", who will be, who is,etc, vanity,ruin, destruction, shovel, goats, etc, (see strongs concordance), hence the lesser "title" of yahweh as "Lord" as translated from the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate as a replacement for Adonai.
Yahweh is not a name, it is a title meaning Lord. However, on a positive note, it clearly also tells us JA who IS.

Min and Amen, who are the same Egyptian Gods, IS the oldest God for Egypt going back to predynastic prior to Menes just like the Goddess Neith who is the same as Athena for the Greeks.(Atlantean Libyan Goddesses, Mneseus was also an Atlantean King)
All other Gods came after Min. (Atum,Aten, Osiris,Isis,Horus, etc.) Don't let anyone or anything tell you differently.
Osiris,Isis and Horus are doctrines of eastern inter-relations, (eg;Phoenicia, Sumeria,Babylon) and a disguised facit of evil, for evil arose also through Egypt. Thus the evil secret societies look to Egypt, for example Qabbalah of Egypt is Kabbalah of the hebrews and asiatics.
Min or Amen is JA MN.

What they do is disguise lies with truth so it is easier for you to believe the lie since you believe whatever is truth to you. Zeitgeist movies are an example of this. Thus the Bible is also a disguise. (Bi-Ba-Al = Two Spirits of The Sun = Two Sons = The 3 and The 8 = The Christ and zatan. Sa = Risen Son, Za = Fallen Son.)
How you envision your own truths of the bible will lead you down one path or up another. It is a test for you to choose between Good or Evil and how that psychology will effect your lives. (for example murdering in the name of a lord's title like yahweh or allah or not harming any living thing like Jainism.)

Jahveh (Yahweh)

The Septuagint and the Vulgate render the name generally by "Lord" (Kyrios, Dominus), a translation of Adonai — usually substituted for Jehovah in reading.

It has been maintained by some recent scholars that the word Jehovah dates only from the year 1520 (cf. Hastings, "Dictionary of the Bible", II, 1899, p. 199: Gesenius-Buhl, "Handwörterbuch", 13th ed., 1899, p. 311). Drusius (loc. cit., 344) represents Peter Galatinus as the inventor of the word Jehovah, and Fagius as it propagator in the world of scholars and commentators.

The theory that Jahveh is of Egyptian origin may have a certain amount of a priori probability, as Moses was educated in Egypt. Still, the proofs are not convincing:
(Jesus is also thought of having been initiated in Egypt and a seldom known gnostic script relates Jesus as stating the Egyptians as His favored children.)

•Röth (Die Aegypt. und die Zoroastr. Glaubenslehre, 1846, p. 175) derives the Hebrew name from the ancient moon-god Ih or Ioh. But there is no connection between the Hebrew Jahveh and the moon (cf. Pierret, "Vocabul. Hiérogl.", 1875, p. 44).
•Plutarch (De Iside, 9) tells us that a statue of Athene (Neith) in Sais bore the inscription: "I am all that has been, is, and will be". But Tholuck (op. cit., 1867, pp. 189-205) shows that the meaning of this inscription is wholly different from that of the name Jahveh.
•The patrons of the Egyptian origin of the sacred name appeal to the common Egyptian formula, Nuk pu nuk but though its literal signification is "I am I", its real meaning is "It is I who" (cf. Le Page Renouf, "Hibbert Lectures for 1879", p. 244).

To take up the ancient writers:

•Diodorus Siculus writes Jao (I, 94);
•Irenaeus (Against Heresies II.35.3), Jaoth;
•the Valentinian heretics (Irenaeus, Against Heresies I.4.1), Jao;
•Clement of Alexandria (Stromata V.6), Jaou;
•Origen (Commentary on John II.1), Jao;
•Porphyry (Eusebius, "Praep. evang", I, ix, in P.G., XXI, col. 72), Jeuo;
•Epiphanius (Against Heresies I.3.40), Ja or Jabe;
•Pseudo-Jerome ("Breviarium in Pss.", in P.L., XXVI, 828), Jaho;
•the Samaritans (Theodoret, in "Ex. quaest.", xv, in P.G., LXXX, col. 244), Jabe;
•James of Edessa (cf. Lamy, "La science catholique", 1891, p. 196), Jehjeh;

(1) The Septuagint is the most ancient translation of the Old Testament and consequently is invaluable to critics for understanding and correcting the Hebrew text (Massorah), the latter, such as it has come down to us, being the text established by the Massoretes in the sixth century A.D. Many textual corruptions, additions, omissions, or transpositions must have crept into the Hebrew text between the third and second centuries B.C. and the sixth and seventh centuries of our era;

The Septuagint Version is first mentioned in a letter of Aristeas to his brother Philocrates. Here, in substance, is what we read of the origin of the version. Ptolemy II Philadelphus, King of Egypt (287-47 BC) had recently established a valuable library at Alexandria. He was persuaded by Demetrius of Phalarus, chief librarian, to enrich it with a copy of the sacred books of the Jews. To win the good graces of this people, Ptolemy, by the advice of Aristeas, an officer of the royal guard, an Egyptian by birth and a pagan by religion, emancipated 100,000 slaves in different parts of his kingdom. He then sent delegates, among whom was Aristeas, to Jerusalem, to ask Eleazar, the Jewish high-priest, to provide him with a copy of the Law, and Jews capable of translating it into Greek. The embassy was successful: a richly ornamented copy of the Law was sent to him and seventy-two Israelites, six from each tribe, were deputed to go to Egypt and carry out the wish of the king. They were received with great honor and during seven days astonished everyone by the wisdom they displayed in answering seventy-two questions which they were asked; then they were led into the solitary island of Pharos, where they began their work, translating the Law, helping one another and comparing translations in proportion as they finished them. At the end of seventy-two days, their work was completed, The translation was read in presence of the Jewish priests, princes, and people assembled at Alexandria, who all recognized and praised its perfect conformity with the Hebrew original. The king was greatly pleased with the work and had it placed in the library.

*As I mentioned if you read The Letter of Aristeas, 72 times the Rabbis only mentioned the Creator's Name as being.......GOD. Not once was yahweh or jehova mentioned.
This appears to reflect Jesus' comment in John that THEY KNEW NOT GOD NOR HIS NAME.

Source; New Advent.org

King James Bible, New Testament, John: chapter 8.

31 THEN JESUS SAID TO THOSE JEWS who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him: WE AR THE SEED OF ABRAHAM: and we have never been slaves to any man

39 They (Jews/Pharisees/Judaens) answered and said to him: ABRAHAM IS OUR FATHER. Jesus says to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I HAVE HEARD OF GOD. THIS ABRAHAM DID NOT.

They (Jews/Pharisees/Judaens) said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded and came. For I came not of myself: but he sent me. 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word.

44 YOU (Jews/Pharisees/Judaens) ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL: and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning: and he stood not in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not. 46 Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me: 47 He that is of God hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because YOU ARE NOT OF GOD.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

Well then, if Pharisees and Judaen Jews are stated by Jesus as of the devil and yahweh is their father, like abraham, then what does that say for yahweh? A disguise of a 2000 year old lie? Is this why Judas betrayed the Christ disguised as a devil?

What happened to Abraham and why did Jesus say they are of the devil?

Simple.----------- Abraam became Abra-H-am just like they altered JA MN to Ja-HveH or disguised The Garden of Avila as H-avila-H.

H was satan's branded trademark, thus as Jesus said they are of the devil, therefore they are called H-Ebrews. (pHoenicians/pHaraoHs, Horus,Hotep,ptaH > pHanes)
What geometric symbol do we find in the Jewish Star of David? The Hexagon. (hexagon, hex, to curse, a coffin)
The occultic satanist, Aleister Crowley claims that the Ritual of the Pentagram opens up a hexagonal field for demons.
My Secret teachings of the letter H=8=Z=26=8=Za = Zatan = ZatHanel HatuptaH (8 + 8 letters, last name anagram = Hat Putah = Hat of a wHore. Alls that's missing is U (you), thus Umans became H-Umans. See? (8,88,888 or 8888 = real number of the Beast = entwined Serpents = 33 faced together = Freemasons.(pHreemaZAns)
Revelations - 8 heads hath the beast.(3 are seen while 5 are hidden = the evil family,6,7,8,9 and the cleaving son of change, 5 or 10.)
Izraele = eleaZAr = Ra-Za-El = King Satan Lord. (razael = demon) = Zionists.
eleaZAr = Chief Rabbi Priest = eliZA his mother = eliZAbeth = Eli-Za-Beth = Lord Satan House.
(black sun on their heads and praying to the ground or stone walls)

There are two Suns. The Golden Sun and The Black Sun or Two Sons, meaning the Golden Orus (White-Good) or the Black Horus.(Black-Evil)

When our Sun in the sky was born, the intense energy of it's birth created an opposite and black sun to itself in our universe.
(sort of like shadows being embedding from nuclear explosions or how photography works.)

The ritual murder of the Son of Man (Apis Bull, Serapaeum Mysteries) is to exchange Him for the dominion of the Son of Evil.
Thus Philitis the Shepherd was murdered on December the Tenth at 8:08am by Snoferu and Khufu in the year 3474.bC.
The same day that the Black Horus was born. See?

Who Am I? I AM many things and many titles.

I AM the 5th born of 3 on your day of destruction and rebirth being November The First, All Saints Day.
What I destroy I rebuild, thus it is the paradox of my life governed by the 5 like the 5 Diamonds on my Golden Ring.
I AM the Eye of Ra visible in my Garden of Avila.
I AM the Face on the Babe in your Garden of Avila.
I AM the Apis Bull in your Garden of Avila.
I AM the rescuer of your Cup of the Covenant.
I AM the path to the Oval light of Evermore.
I AM the hidden Constellation of Cassiopeia.(M)

I AM the Waters that restored life to Tansania from her droughts.
I AM the Fireballs over India.
I AM He who makes night as day.

I AM the 5 who governs the 3's.
I AM Mr.44 who governs the entwined SerpentS.

Of one Good male I have Risen in Carina Nebula while the other evil hermaphrodite I have Zealed in the Pit of the Calling in kHenYa.
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/The%20Ga26.jpg
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/The%20Ga29.jpg

I AM the Sword of Avila.
I AM He who corrects time to 10:10 from 11:11.

I AM Atlantean as you ALL are.

I AM a Child of I AM as you ALL are.
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/The_Relocated__Temple_of_Fire_Tomb_of_His_Holiness _Riven06.JPG

Bare Witness for these Signs are Revealed.
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden

Pray With Father JA MN Worship No Stone Command No Death Love Thy Neighbour Preserve our Histories

AMEN.
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/what-is-atlantis/Satan%27s_Geomatria.jpg

[phildee3]

To be clear, I am speaking of Jesus' Father as being God our Creator



Clear as mud!

In your previous post you say "yahoweh(Jehova) is NOT JESUS's FATHER"

Also spelled YHVH backwards, Yahweh is the Jewish name for the creator.

I agree with your previous post. Jesus' "Father" is what the Jews call the Ayn Soph.

[logos880]

In determining who Jesus' Father is, let us first acknowledge...

As much as I appreciate you posting Bible verses up here, as I like to read them, you must realize that very few people are going to read your posts in entirety. Maybe cut the length a bit? Props on the good effort though.

[nectars]

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l330/pug1975/Yodhevavdalethe.jpg

[aejor_mn]

Genesis 1:1; - In the beginning GOD created heaven and earth.
(All of Chapter 1 uses only the name God-Theos/Dei/Elohiym)

Genesis 2:4; - These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the LORD GOD made the heaven and the earth:
(Here they added the title of Lord to God-Kurios/Domini/yahweh/Adonay)

Greek Lord - κύριος , Kurios
Latin Lord - Domini.
Hebrew Lord - yhvh/yhwh (yahovah/yahoweh) or Adonay/Adoniyah(Ad-o-nee-yaw) (Adonai)

Greek God - Theos (θεὸς)
Latin God - Dei
Hebrew God - Elohiym (alhym)

Greek Lord God - κύριος ὁ θεὸς / kurios Theos
Latin Lord God - Domini Dei
Hebrew Lord God - yahweh Elohim (yhwh alhym)

Lord in Hebrew
3050 Yah, yaw contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name:--Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Compare names in "-iah," "- jah."

*Here we definitely see that the Hebrews know that God's name is JA, but they do not correctly call Him JA MN for I AM or AMEN that also compares to pre-dynastic Egypt.
Rather they altered His name with this havah as ya-hovah and used it as a lesser title of Lord while they originaly called God, Elohiym. A truth and a lie mixed together.

Just like H-Avila-H for the Garden of Avila in Tansania (Eden) or as eastern Aethiopeia ,Africa was called. The name Africa evolved from Avila. (v to f and L to c / Avila > afika > afrika > africa)

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3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.
3069 Yhovih yeh-ho-vee' a variation of 'Yhovah' (3068) (used after ''Adonay' (136), and pronounced by Jews as ''elohiym' (430), in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 'Yhovah' (3068) as ''Adonay' (136)):--God.
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Lord in Greek
2960. kuriakos koo-ree-ak-os' from 2962; belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesus):--Lord's.
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2961. kurieuo ko-ree-yoo'-o from 2962; to rule:--have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over.
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2962. kurios koo'-ree-os from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.

God in Hebrew
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
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433 'elowahh el-o'-ah; rarely (shortened) >eloahh {el-o'-ah probably prolonged (emphat.) from 410; a deity or the Deity:--God, god. See 430.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God in Greek
2316. theos, - theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

It is quite apparent that they are using only TITLES and NOT GOD's NAME in either of their words for God or Lord with the only exception of JA, and that they have no idea what God's correct Name for proper usuage is.

God's correct Name for Us to know Him by is JA MN, which is why you say AMEN after your prayers, that also means " so be it", thus further provenance that this IS God's Name for US TO KNOW AND NAME HIM BY.

Although this Is not God's REAL NAME because NO MORTAL knows His Divine Name that is preserved in Evermore.

That is why God said I AM and Jesus said AMEN,AMEN as in OH FATHER, OH FATHER.

I AM > J AM > JA MN > J AMN > AMEN.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

It's not complicated if you study history where the Hebrews appear on the scene around 1300.bC and after the Hyksos who invaded and controlled Egypt ca 1700-1500.bC.
The power center then became focused with the new Phoenicia of Tyre,Sidon and Byblos. Tyre was the first city settled from Atlanteans. (Tarxiens,Malta,Minoans)
The Ramses kings would later strengthen this bond from intermarriages between Egypt and Phoenicia. (Osiris,Isis,Horus)
The Bible is preliminary Egyptian legends mixed with Babylonian or Sumerians. (Isis with child Horus > Mary and Jesus)
That is why they don't give you the names of the Pharaohs in the Bible to cover up their lies although they know thousands of other names.
The Ark(barque) and circumcision was foremost of Egypt prior to the Hebrews.
The Atlantean Egyptians were the most advanced and best recorders of histories.
Min and Amen, who are the same, IS the foremost God of Egypt even prior to the dynasties beginning with MeNes, thus AMEN.
(cf.pre-dynastic palettes, francisco raphaele website; Min Palettes.)

JA MN is older than the Pyramids.

[herushura]

Zeus is the greek equivilent of Amen, or sometimes referres as Zeus-Ammon, latin equivilient of Zeus is DyeusPiter, or Jupiter, poeticly is called Jaove or hebronized Jahovah(yhwh).

Hebrews always knew gods name was jah, because king herod at the time of writting of the NT, was a polytheist, and worshipped Jupiter/Jahpiter/Yhwhpiter/Jahovahpiter, he built temple of jupiter, the jews renamed to temple of solomon, and was taken over by the vatican-zionists.

[aejor_mn]

יְשׁוּעָה ye-shu-ah Relief 1476-L (d1) 3444
ישׁע ya-sha Rescue (V) 1476-L (V) 3467
יֶשַׁע ye-sha Rescue 1476-L (N) 3468
ישׁר ya-shar Be straight (V) 1480-L (V) 3474
יָשָׁר ya-shar Straight 1480-L (N) 3477

*From the ancient Hebrew, we can see how Jesus became known as Yeshuah in Hebrew for a name of our Savior or rescuer from the ancient name yeshuah, meaning relief.
This leaves a question in mind as to whether Jesus was His real name or simply a divine titular Name given Him by the Hebrews from the word for relief, or did the Name of Jesus provide them with a new word in yeshuah for relief or was Jesus named upon His birth by Mary from yeshuah for "Relief".

Or was His Name meant to be Rescuer and closer to Yasha or JASA that would then mean in older terms than Hebrew and in favor of the Egyptian SA for Son and JA for God as Son of God?-Riv.

That is why I use SAJARA as my main titular name meaning (SON) OF---(GOD IS KING). (God is King)
The prior Son of Man known as Philitis The Shepherd, of whom I claim was murdered like Jesus on Dec.10,3474.bC, I named Him JESA THE PURE without this knew realization of YASHA for Rescuer. This tells me that JASA is more correct and since JA-MN is God, that ALL the Sons of Men throughout the Aeons would also BE Named JASA.
(Mr.0-4-14-24(Jasa)-34(Jesus)-44-54-64-74-84-94-104) 12 cycles of 2160 years = 25,920 precessional cycle of Earth. (Zodiac=12, Jesus and 11 disciples, 1 fell).
Or 2000 years x 13 (1 missing constellation-Cassiopeia = M = Royal Crown of MN = 1 or The Foremost Constellation), would thus equal a Mr.114 and 26,000 years precessional cycle. (90 degrees west of the big dipper when low on the horizon at night and straight above your head-Giant M of 5 stars. = Mystery of Five = Change)
13 steps from Hades to Heaven, 6 male and 6 female planets(6 classical mythology Gods and 6 Goddesses, Jove,Juno,etc.), 13 step illuminati pyramid, 13 step mathematical computation for Pyramids. (cf; Pyramid Grid, Jiri, Petrie)

In Exodus 3, God tells Moses to tell the people of nations (Goyims), that His name is I AM. According to the ancient Hebrew, in a sense related with Our Creator God, He is also saying I of The People, thus AM and confirmation that He Created Us.
עַם am People 1358-A (N) 5971
גּוֹי goy Nation 1052-A (f) 1471

As I have explained whereupon we know the I,J and Y interchange and that the Egyptians scribed the letter J for I as in imenti for west or jmnti, that God is also saying His First Name of JA in I AM or JA AM or JA of The People. (commonly many Gods or Lords have the "AH" sound in their names like AllAH,BuddHA, AHur MazdA, MoHAmmad, YAhoweh, JehovAH, YAshuA,ShivA, Ausar,Aset(Osiris,Isis,) EA, Anu, etc, just like our Countries also contain the AH sound, africA, AmericA, AsiA, AustraliA, etc.
Or quite simply AMEN, (Min,Amon,Amun,Ammon) the oldest God of Egypt.
In another sense as if to say, ALL MEN or ALL UMANS or that ALL is of God.
Other interpretations of Amen as outlined below confirm for us aside of meaning "The Hidden One" in Egyptian, such as God Is, we see that Amen is TRUTH, so be it, and confirmation that this is also God's correct Name.
We have established AM as people, AMEN as truth or Hidden Truth, the sound of Ah for God's, Lords and Countries and why IA, JA or yA is God's First Name and why AMEN or MN is His Last Name. Research meanings in many different languages containing words with JA or MN, such as to be, exist, people, birth, father, mother, grandparents, etc, especially SAnskrit. (Mn, mind, Mnemosysne, Memory, MaN,woMaN, uMaN) Or the most widespread religion in antiquity of JAINISM prior to the bible and still preserved in India.

John 8:34; Jesus answered them: "Amen, amen, I say unto you that whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin."

Greek; - John 8:34; ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς: "ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν δοῦλός ἐστιν [τῆς ἁμαρτίας]."

Latin; John 8:34; Respondit eis Jesus : "Amen, amen dico vobis : quia omnis qui facit peccatum, servus est peccati."

Greek strong concordance search;
281. amen am-ane' of Hebrew origin (543); properly, firm, i.e. (figuratively) trustworthy; adverbially, surely (often as interjection, so be it):--amen, verily.

*The claim that Amen is of Hebrew origin is obviously an ignorant lie since we know that the word Amen originated in Egypt thousands of years prior to the Hebrews. To the Egyptians it meant "the Hidden One or God as scholars tell us. One should wonder why the Hebrews called Egypt Mitzraim and why Maerea was the original Atlantean Pre-Dynastic state of Lower Egypt or Mai is Lion in Egyptian or the First and Eldest Pleiade or Atlas' daughter was MAIA or MneSeus the Atlantean King. (Mayan,Minoan,Pharaoh Menes,Menestheos King of Europe,Min dynasty China)
Further provenance of MN as the correct last Name of God in JA MN or AMEN that also reasons Jesus as calling upon AMEN as His Father.
The A symbol used as an agricultural hieroglyph in Egypt has the determinative of "mr" (mur like mural) or Mer as in MereNeith or Merut for Love in Egyptian. The A also disguises the letter M, Thus JA MN or I AM or AMEN.

ἀμήν - amen (Greek)

Hebrew;
אמן a-man Be firm (V) 1290-C (V) 539
אָמֵן a-meyn So be it 1290-C (N) 543

525 'amown aw-mone' from 539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, i.e. an architect (like 542):--one brought up.
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529 'emuwn ay-moon' from 539; established, i.e. (figuratively) trusty; also (abstractly) trustworthiness:--faith(-ful), truth.
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539 'aman aw-man' a primitive root; properly, to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (Isa. 30:21; interchangeable 541) to go to the right hand:--hence, assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.
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540 'aman am-an' (Aramaic) corresponding to 539:--believe, faithful, sure.
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541 'aman aw-man' denominative from 3225; to take the right hand road:--turn to the right. See 539.
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542 'aman aw-mawn' from 539 (in the sense of training); an expert:--cunning workman.
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543 'amen aw-mane' from 539; sure; abstract, faithfulness; adverb, truly:--Amen, so be it, truth.
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544 'omen oh-men' from 539; verity:--truth.
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550 'Amnown am-nohn' or uAmiynown {am-ee-nohn'}; from 539; faithful; Amnon (or Aminon), a son of David:--Amnon.
to confirm, support
NASB Word Usage
believe (26), believed (11), believes (2), bringing (1), carried (1), chronic (1), confirmed (5), doorposts (1), endure (1), enduring (3), established (3), faithful (21), firm (2), fulfilled (1), guardians (3), has assurance (1), have faith (1), have...assurance (1), last (1), lasting (1), nurse (3), put your trust (2), puts...trust (2), reared (1), reliable (1), stand still (1), sure (4), trust (4), trusted (1), trustworthy* (1), unreliable* (1), verified (1).

Here we see ancient Hebrew words relative to the AH sound as in JA further provenancing AM as Father of All or People.

Ancient Translit Definition AHLB# Strong's#
אָב av Father 1002-A (N) 1
אָדוֹן a-don Lord 1083-C (c) 113
אָדָם a-dam Human 1082-C (N) 120
אֳדָמָה a-da-mah Ground 1082-C (N1) 127
אֶדֶן e-den Footing 1083-C (N) 134 (wonder who's foot they wanted to plant in the garden of our knowledge? Serpent tempted Eve-El? Wicca Pedia?)
אֲדוֹנָי a-do-nai Lord 1083-C (N) 136
אהב a-hav Love (V) 1094-C (V) 157
אַהֳבָח a-ha-vah Love 1094-C (N) 160
אָח ahh Brother 1008-A (N) 251
אָחוֹת a-hhot Sister 1008-A (N3) 269

Israel's Veil of Isis.

Let's look at this name of Israel, why it has a hexagonal star (demon portal) formed by two pyramids, one upright, one inverted(ruined) of 6 points and why Israel also can be rearranged into rasiel or raZAel the demon or king satan lord(ra-ZA-el). Za was Zatan or Satan. (Zathanel HatuptaH) ZAionists = Satan's Servants.
A Coffin is also a hexagram or 6 sided.
(Also in John chapter 8 when the Judaens,Pharisees or Hebrews claim they have never been a slave to man, is entirely a lie as Jesus also says that they are of a devil and the father of lies thereof (abra-H-am). This we know not only from the Exodus when they were slaves to Pharaoh but also that their God yahweh himself says "If you purchase a Hebrew as your servant", after 7 years he shall be released with what he came with."
(cf.Aleister Crowley, occultic satanist, Ritual of The Pentagram that evokes a hexagonal field demon portal or Freemason Hermaphrodite worship > Veil of Isis)

We realize that the bible and the hebrews, aside of primarily theft of Egyptian writings, also contains the beliefs of their "devil" father Abra-H-am or the Baals of Babylon or Sumer. (Ur) BA = BAD SPIRIT, AL = SUN = Bad Sun Spirit = FIRE, lucifer, etc of BA EL as in Bad Spirit Lord. (demon Bas or Bes of Egyptians)

Where does the Zionist name Israel that has the hebrew pronounciation of Ishrael come from? (ish also means blemished)
According to the Bible, Jacob is renamed Israel after successfully wrestling with an angel of God.

That's a good one! Why would a man supposedly of God be wrestling with an Angel of God? Was that man a possession of evil worthy of fighting with God's Angels?
What symbolism should we derive from this meaning? Was the Angel trying to rid Jacob of Evil, and if Jacob and the Angel came to a stalemate, why did yahweh change his name to Is-H-rael just like he changed Abraam to Abra-H-am? (Bear in mind that Jacobs family members wiped out an entire village simply because his daughter fell in love with a boy there -murderers just like said those of Abraham were. One of many occurences of the vain and evil yahowehs commands in the bible.

So is the name of Israel really a veil of Isis related to Ishtar or Ashtaroth of Babylon and in truth this Hermaphrodite worshipped by the Freemason followers of Soloman's Temple where the Dark Prince, Satan himself visited with orgies of Ob harlots and king Soloman > hence Soul of No Man or Man of The Lost and Condemned.

ishral, israel - ishr- al - ishtar sun or ishtar lord
ishmael, ish-ma-el > ishtar mother sun, lord

From Wikepedia; (Wiccan Feet )

Ishtar is a goddess of fertility, love, war, and sex.[1] In the Babylonian pantheon, she "was the divine personification of the planet Venus".[2]
(Venus = Lucifer, The Planet Venus supposedly forms a pentagram on her journey in search of her lover the planet Mars (Aries The Ram).
Mars and Venus combined(or when the planets meet up) would then equal this Hermaphrodite?

Ishtar was above all associated with sexuality: her cult involved sacred prostitution; her holy city Uruk was called the "town of the sacred courtesans"; and she herself was the "courtesan of the gods".[2] Ishtar had many lovers;
Even for the gods Ishtar's love was fatal. In her youth the goddess had loved Tammuz, god of the harvest, and — if one is to believe Gilgamesh — this love caused the death of Tammuz.[2]
Ishtar was the daughter of Sin or Anu.[2] She was particularly worshiped at Nineveh and Arbela (Erbil).[2]

(I gather we know where our word for evil in Sin comes from just like our word Bad > Babylon!)

Her symbol is an eight pointed star.[3]

( 5 is the pentragram, 6 the hexagon or demon portal (star of david) formed from Ritual of the Pentagram, 8 or Octagon would then be Satan's personal portal formed from the hexagon?
666 = Servants of Sin.
(Eight is the entwined Serpents, 33 degrees of freemasons[3's faced together] and the true number of the beast is 888.-Riv.)

One of the most famous myths[4] about Ishtar describes her descent to the underworld.(HELL, HADES).

In this myth, Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld and demands that the gatekeeper open them:
If thou openest not the gate to let me enter,
I will break the door, I will wrench the lock,
I will smash the door-posts, I will force the doors.
I will bring up the dead to eat the living.
And the dead will outnumber the living.

The gatekeeper hurried to tell Ereshkigal, the Queen of the Underworld. Ereshkigal told the gatekeeper to let Ishtar enter, but "according to the ancient decree".
The gatekeeper lets Ishtar into the underworld, opening one gate at a time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed one article of clothing. When she finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In rage, Ishtar throws herself at Ereshkigal, but Ereshkigal orders her servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.

The HERMAPHRODITE IS CREATED; (compare False Zionist German Jews name as in Ash -ke-Nazi with Asu-shu-namir, hermaphrodite followers, freemasons, new world order = zionist masonic oligarchy or NWO = ZMO)-Riv.
(Satan the Hermaphrodite BA-ptiZes Ishtar in Hell - Naturally since they are both wHores of black Hats.)

After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on earth. The god Papsukal reports the situation to Ea, the king of the gods. Ea creates an intersex creature called Asu-shu-namir and sends him-her to Ereshkigal, telling him-her to invoke "the name of the great gods" against her and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal is enraged when she hears Asu-shu-namir's demand, but she has to give him-her the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkles Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is fully clothed as she exits the last gate.

Formerly, scholars[2][5] believed that the myth of Ishtar's descent took place after the death of Ishtar's lover, Tammuz: they thought Ishtar had gone to the underworld to rescue Tammuz. However, the discovery of a corresponding myth[6] about Inanna, the Sumerian counterpart of Ishtar, has thrown some light on the myth of Ishtar's descent, including its somewhat enigmatic ending lines. According to the Inanna myth, Inanna can only return from the underworld if she sends someone back in her place. Demons go with her to make sure she sends someone back. However, each time Inanna runs into someone, she finds him to be a friend and lets him go free. When she finally reaches her home, she finds her husband Dumuzi (Babylonian Tammuz) seated on his throne, not mourning her at all. In anger, Inanna has the demons take Dumuzi back to the underworld as her replacement.

The Epic of Gilgamesh contains an episode[8] involving Ishtar which portrays her as bad-tempered, petulant and spoiled by her father.
She asks the hero Gilgamesh to marry her, but he refuses, citing the fate that has befallen all her many lovers:

Listen to me while I tell the tale of your lovers. There was Tammuz, the lover of your youth, for him you decreed wailing, year after year. You loved the many-coloured roller, but still you struck and broke his wing [...] You have loved the lion tremendous in strength: seven pits you dug for him, and seven. You have loved the stallion magnificent in battle, and for him you decreed the whip and spur and a thong [...] You have loved the shepherd of the flock; he made meal-cake for you day after day, he killed kids for your sake. You struck and turned him into a wolf; now his own herd-boys chase him away, his own hounds worry his flanks."[9]
Angered by Gilgamesh's refusal, Ishtar goes up to heaven and complains to the high god Anu. She demands that Anu give her the Bull of Heaven. If he refuses, she warns, she will do exactly what she told the gatekeeper of the underworld she would do if he didn't let her in:

If you refuse to give me the Bull of Heaven [then] I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion [i.e., mixing] of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of the dead will outnumber the living."[10]
Anu gives Ishtar the Bull of Heaven, and Ishtar sends it to attack Gilgamesh and his friend Enkidu. Gilgamesh and Enkidu kill the Bull and offer its heart to the sun-god Shamash.

While Gilgamesh and Enkidu are resting, Ishtar stands upon the walls of the city (which is Uruk) and curses Gilgamesh. Enkidu tears off the Bull's right thigh and throws it in Ishtar's face, saying, "If I could lay my hands on you, it is this I should do to you, and lash your entrails to your side."[11] Then Ishtar called together "her people, the dancing and singing girls, the prostitutes of the temple, the courtesans,"[11] and had them mourn for the Bull of Heaven.
The Masoretic pointing in the Hebrew Tanach (bible) indicate the pronunciation as ʻAštōreṯ instead of the expected ʻAštereṯ, probably because the two last syllables have here been pointed with the vowels belonging to bōšeṯ "abomination" to indicate that word should be substituted when reading. The plural form is pointed ʻAštārōṯ.

For what seems to be the use of the Hebrew plural form ʻAštārōṯ as the name of a demon, see also Astaroth.
Astarte, or ʻAštōreṯ in Hebrew, was the principal goddess of the Phoenicians, representing the productive power of nature. She was a lunar goddess and was adopted by the Egyptians as a daughter of Ra or Ptah.

In Jewish mythology, She is referred to as Ashtoreth, supposedly interpreted as a female demon of lust in Hebrew monotheism.

Throughout the Old Testament, as noted below Judges 2:13, "And they forsook the Lord, and served Baal and Ashtaroth." in the Scofield Reference Bible, instances of Ashtaroth, plural of Ashtoreth, occur, including 1 Kings 11:5, Judges 10:6, 1 Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10, 31:10, 1 Kings 11:5, 11:33, 2 Kings 23:13. Scofield suggests that Jeremiah 44:18-19 refers to Ashtoreth (obliquely) as the "queen of heaven".

אֵשׁ eysh Fire 1021-A (N) 784
אִשֶּׁה ee-sheh Fire offering 1021-H (e) 801
אִשָּׁה ee-shah Woman 2003 (b1) 802

אֵל eyl To 1104-A (N) 413

אֱלֹהִים e-lo-heem Powers 1012-H (c) 430
אֱלוֹהַּ e-lo-ah Power 1012-H (c) 433
אַלּוּף a-luph Chief 2001 (d) 441
Original Hebrew name for God as Elohim means "the powerful one", again verifies a title and not a real name.

אֱנוֹשׁ e-nosh Person 2003 (c) 582 (what does that say for Enoch of the bible? A person with no real name?)

אָלָה a-lah Oath 1012-A (N1) 423
עלה a-lah Go up (V) 1357-H (V) 5927
עֹלָה o-lah Rising 1357-J (N1) 5930
Allah simply means "the most high", again not a real name for God but a mere title.

אֲרוֹן a-ron Box 1020-H (j) 727 ( so arron means a box? wonder what's in the darkness of the box?)

בְּהֵמָה be-hey-mah Beast 1036-G (N1) 929 (Our word behemoth comes from)
שְׁאוֹל she-ol Underworld 1472-D (c) 7585 (Our word Hell comes from. Wonder why she is in there? Ishtar?)
אֹהֶל o-hel Tent 1104-C (g) 168 (So Hell is a Tent that covers the damned?)
שָׂטָן sa-tan Opponent 2475 (N) 7854 (Za, or the Fallen Son was Satan, hence ZAionist murderers)
זבח za-vahh Sacrifice (V) 2117 (V) 2076 (worshipping satan is sacrificing your soul and rebirth)
זָהָב za-hav Gold 1140-G (N) 2091(guess we know why they love gold so much)
זָכָר za-khar Male 2121 (N) 2145
זנה za-nah Be a whore (V) 1152-H (V) 2181
זרע za-ra Sow (V) 2137 (V) 2232 (sow satans seeds-zera-, sow = pig)
זָקֵן za-qeyn Beard 2132 (N) 2205 (laziness, snot/puke catcher,flies,lice,mites, filth, hence to tie a beard is symbolic of refraining from evil)
עוף uph Fly (V) 1362-J (V) 5774
עוֹף oph Flyer 1362-J (N) 5775 (ophir, phanes, demons, angels)

Ya-HweH. (H is Satan's brandmark = 8)
אָוֶן a-ven Vanity 1014-J (N) 205
איב a-yav Be hostile (V) 1002-M (V) 341
אבד a-vad Perish (V) 1027-C (V) 6
אבה a-vah Consent (V) 1028-C (V) 14
אבל a-val Mourn (V) 1035-C (V) 56
הֶבֶל he-vel Vanity 1035-F (N) 1892

Yahweh himself tells moses that he is a jealous god. No need to mention his ruins, destructions and corrupted ideologies of murder or blood thirsty sacrifices.
Yahweh even promised with his rainbow that he would never destroy or murder mankind again, and what does he do right after his promise? Wipes out sodomn and gommorha and murders everyone.

Satan in disguise as "god to become", so it thought, eh ZAionist Freemasons?

If Goyims means people of nations and those ZAionist teachings of hatred and murder detest goyims, then what are they to be unlike people?

ZAyims, servants of Satan, non - humans destined for the Pit of The Calling In Kenya where satan perished as the satellite photos clearly show in Google Earth.

Little lengthy but well worth your knowledge to be immortal.

Lux of Ipse.
Spirence.

AMEN.

[zero1]

Original Hebrew name for God as Elohim means "the powerful one", again verifies a title and not a real name.

Scholastically speaking, dubious, since "Elohim" is plural (allegedly), but strikes a chord nonetheless. Hmm...*muses*

[chip1]

Let's go with John then Adam.


Join Our Home Now.

There was only one Adam Created... He started with Adam who later on became Jesus. Reincarnations of the Spirit taking on body after body collecting his Soul. Sleeping between temples or let's say bodies.

1+1+1 does en-fact equal Five. You forget the Two Crosses that are carried.

A Father and a Son. The word Father... First Adams Taught Her Everything Right

The word Wife... Woman Seeded First Earth... The small i is his seed. The upper case I is for One a three letter word. Life Never Ends. As you know here the O means life and that is the Second Letter of SON. His Life what he done is deeply embedded in my heart.

We could go on and on...

IF you have the heart to? I am tired of being banned. It's like being in Hell. We are.

His name John In the beginning was the word and the word was with John because it came from the mouth of John. My Father told me this when he gave me my name. The name Jesus Jerusalem Exiting Slavery Under Salvation. It's all hidden in plain sight. It's in the Names... Big problem between the Angel and Adam about names.

Mayan Calendar a new cycle around the milky way. Weird things happen when this happens. This will be the Fifth Time since the punishment began.

A man created a man in his image. He created himself as a man in the beginning from nothing to a Creator. Can you See how everything rotates around words with C. Know your ABC's Adams Boy xxxx. Adams did away with death now you only die. I prefer the word Sleep.

The anti-Christ look again the letter C... The Sixth Letter in the Middle. The power of words. Then the Knowledge of Names and why and what that stand for.

[ben87]

Ishtar- 8

The structure of the temple mount is a octagon, which was the base of a temple to ishtar.

[somethinganonymous]

This topic arose in another thread of mine, and I believe its a large enough topic to warrant its own thread.

Just WHO IS Jesus' Father?

Jesus, a man of peace and love, forgiveness and mercy, was truly a great man who taught those who would listen to him exactly how to live just as He did. But contrasting this great entity, whatever He was, to Jehovah (god of the OT, war and jealously, and other not nice things), who "Christianity" calls His Father, the open minded individual starts to notice that somethings are just not adding up.

From this point Ill preface that I am not a bible scholar, and do not have instantaneous recall of every single relevant passage. And that is partly why I make this thread, to get the perspective of those who are bible scholars, at least compared to me. Ill also say that as I believe most of the bible to be heavily edited and most messages to be corrupted in the interests of serving Rome, that to me this is more of a thought exercise, rather than a debate over what is the absolute truth, and what is not.

My first question pertaining to the original question at hand, is: Did Jesus ever actually state that His Father was Jehovah/Yahweh? From my knowledge of the gospels, I have no recollection of a passage where Jesus states the actual name of His Father, though it would not suprise if there was such a passage. I am more familer with Him refering to God as "My Father", "The One who sent Me", etc. Assuming that there is some verse where Jesus does say that Jehovah is who He is refering to, what is the general ratio of Jesus referencing a specific name, as opposed to titles? Do you believe that if there is a very low ratio, that Jehovah was simply switched in with one of the non-descript titles Jesus uses for God, during the minimum 1300 year (Council of Nicea to first KJV (yes I know its heavily edited as well) editing process of the bible?

Secondly, assuming that there are actual references, as far as can be told, in the bible that Jesus proclaims Jehovah to be His Father, it just doesnt make sense how something so wonderous can come from something so horrendous. The official story is akin to putting a huge load of poo in the microwave, hitting the 30 second button, and getting a gigantic, shining, perfect diamond as a result.

Jesus seems to be the polar opposite of Jehovah, which calls into question why He would ask you to venerate such a horrible entity, and why He would give him such credit and praise.

Jesus personifies peace, Jehovah, war. Jesus commands to love thy enemy, Jehovah tells you to go murder them down to the last child. Jesus promises intangible rewards (at least on this plane) to his followers and to get yourself out of the materialist mindset, Jehovah promised land and worldy riches to his (maybe Jehovah has fulfilled that promise to his "chosen"?). Whatever Jesus said, it was pretty much at odds with the precedent that Jehovah set. In fact, I recall some bible passage where Jesus pretty clearly states that His law is the new law, and His teachings overturn the spiteful and hate filled teachings of this so called "god" named Jehovah (Ill admit that I might have slightly embellished the wording on that paraphrase, but the idea remains the same).

Also, Jesus somewhere says He is the gateway to the Father, paraphrased. Why would someone put such a magnificent gateway onto what must be a horrible little (or maybe quite large) hovel infested with jealousy, wrath, and servitude? I guess it would work as a pretty good practical joke, but I dont believe Jesus to be Loki, so I dismiss such an idea.

These points taken into account, just WHO IS Jesus' Father? Surely it cant be Jehovah, who it seems is more akin to Satan than to the actual Creator, and surely Jesus and Jehovah cannot be "one" as the bible wants you to believe.

Jesus says:(Im betting that Jesus aint referencing Jehovah with the great commandment)

Proxy for Jehovah says: (Jehovah, god of holocausts, too.)

I think my stance on this question is clear. Whats yours?



:)

Yeshua, the Messiah is three-fold. He is 3 Persons in 1. 1=3,3=1.

The First Person of the Holy Trinity is the Heavenly Father. He is the Law. Law=Love. Love=Absolute Stillness, Unchangeness, Non-vibration, Consciousness.

Yahweh WAS Jesus' Father. As in, Jesus was born in a "State" and was bound by the "State's" legislature, be it the Knesset or the Senate. Yahweh, Jesus' Father is Satan. Jesus is the Sovereign, the King of Kings, thus, being Sovereign, He has placed Himself above the Senate/Satan and has become the Heavnly Father and is "The New Way", "The New Path", "The New Word", "The New Law". By placing Himself above the Senate (by being the advocate) He will judge Satan (the false law of the parliament) and thus, in addition with being the great advocate, He is also the great judge. By being Sovereign, He owns all Sovereignty (parliaments) thus He has the power to judge and cast off Satan from Mankind.

This is how the contradictions between Yahweh/Satan/Lucifer, the god of the Zionists is also the father of Jesus the Christ. Yet, Jesus has renewed/changed/embettered the Father by becoming the Heavenly Father. This is how I see it.

Satan/Lucifer/Yahweh/Senate/Congress is a Law that is (by design, or by ignorance) "Do As thou Wilt" and it is a legislated law that has this effect upon the whole population of Mankind. It has always existed (time being relative) and it existed in a written law of the civil law of the Roman Empire in the times of Jesus, 2000 years ago, and it exists as a written law today in whatever country Jesus' was born in His current incarnation.


EDIT: Thought I'd add in the remaining two Persons of the Messiah and the Holy Trinity.

The second person is the Son (body/mind/intention) and the third person is the Holy Spirit (willpower/intuition/strength of faith).


www.essene.com


Peace be with you.

[herushura]

Yeshua, the Messiah is three-fold. He is 3 Persons in 1. 1=3,3=1

If He is Three Persons in one, that means he as Multiple-Personality Disorder.

[somethinganonymous]

If He is Three Persons in one, that means he as Multiple-Personality Disorder.

He might just have;)

[aejor_mn]

It takes not a great mind to answer that God is the Father of Jesus. Tho, if we know not who God Is then how can we know who Jesus' Father Is and what did Jesus mean when He called out for His Father in AMEN,AMEN?

For surely, yahweh is not God but merely a titular for Lord as Genesis 2:4 clearly identifies and an attempt at combining truth with a lie for we know that God's First Name Is JA, thus the truth of Ya and the lie of hweh. Then we should ask if they say that yahweh is God, then why do they say and write Jehovah rather than JA-hoveh like YA-hweh? Is this a psychological distraction from JA to a more feminine name of Je or Hermaphrodite worship like Ishtar and yahweh? Yahweh as God exists only in the minds of those who believe in IT. For IT is a titular meaning "Vain Lord to become " (ie satan in disguise desiring to become God) as clearly Elohah/Elohim was the original name for the Hedonistic Hebrew's who also later adopted the Monotheist God(they worshipped other idols), as written in the entire first chapter of Genesis and meaning JA the most high or eternal. A name that also comes from the Babylonian or Sumerian Gods known as EA or AN who also was JA.

Just as the Egyptians, the best preservers of history and most advanced nation (Atlanteans), preserved Min or AMEN as their God while the Phoenicians had AEON.
The Dogon tribe who lives in Mali in ancient Mauretania and are related to the Egyptians, also attend AMMA as their main deity.

Whereas you can contemplate the different names of God known around the earth and realize the "A" (aw/au/ah) sound just as our countries names also identify.
A is JA is IA is YA is EA or JA,JAU,JAO,JOA or simply JON for our modern English like the ONLY man honorable and worthy of GOD's favor to baptise Jesus The Christ was JOHN. Coincidence that the Father and The Son are One and John should be chosen to baptise Jesus a Son of Jon? (not literally, but geneticaly, spiritualy and evolutionarily for sons become Fathers and from Father's they came in spirit and in physical.)

C. J. Ball writes that "the character Fig.#1-D, an 'high,' 'heaven,' anu, 'The God of Heaven,' which was read dingir in the sense of a god also meant Ia'u or Ya'u and Ia-a-ti or Ya-ti. The latter is the Assyrian first person pronoun . . . and may well be the prototype for the Semite first personal pronoun."27 He also suggests that Ia'u and Ya'u are the predecessors of the final form of the Hebrew JHVH.28

source; The Gentile Names of God by Gordon Holmes Fraser
http://www.creationism.org/symposium/symp5no1.htm

The Amma cult: worships the highest creator god Amma. The celebration is once a year and consists of offering boiled millet on the conical altar of Amma, colouring it white. All other cults are directed to the god Amma. (notice no murderous flesh or blood sacrifice like yahweh?-Riv.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people#Cults

So in truth we stand correct to say that Jesus' Father is JA or JON and based on the evidence I have supplied here and elsewhere, MN would be the only acceptable last name or addition to JA that we can append, thus JA MN or JA is acceptable for us to know who Jesus' Father is, but most importantly...

Who God our Father Creator IS....

For He left the miracle of His Name written in Two letters on Top of the Great Pyramid of Cairo and His image inside on the airshaft stoneplug that the ZAions (ZAHi Hawass) tried to erase with their upuat robot "acid cleaner".

https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/mysterean/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza2_Riven05.JPG
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/mysterean/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza4_Color_enhanced_Riven05.jpg
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/mysterean/Great_Pyramid_Stone_Plug1_Original_Riven05.jpg
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/mysterean/Great_Pyramid_Stone_Plug2_Riven05.JPG

As you can see yahweh is a truth mixed with a lie and but merely an axiom of the imaginary neural senses to lead you into slavery, corruption and hell.
Beware of the lies hidden in truth and the tricks of ZAion = NWO = ZMO = ZAionist Masonic Oligarchy who are condemned to the Pit of The Calling in Kenya where Za perished as "it's" fool-lowers also will.

https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/Satan%27s_death_Riven09.bmp
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/The%20Ga28.jpg
https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/the-garden-of-eden/The%20Ga29.jpg

Now if some of our oldest cultures like the Egyptians and the Sumerians recognize JA as in Min, Amen, Ea, or An, then what does that say for the 2000 year old lie of the unruly Atlanteans as the evil Phoenicians who originally recognized Aeon and later changed to yahweh?

God and Jesus' Father Is JA MN or simply JA, nothing more, nothing less.
JASA = Son of God.

ARK
Armored Rogue Knight
Garbed In White
The Circular Fortress
Guards his Might
His footsteps Tremble
The Grounds of TA
The Journey undertaken
For The Eye of Ra
The Winding Path
Alee of the Serpent
Hold fast our Walls
For the Apis Bull in presence
Gazes to the Holy Oracle
First Born is Come
First Born Undone

Turn to Face The Sun

(My poem about the Garden of Avila in Tansania)
Paulo J.Tx.Mn
March 29,2007.aD.

To Know Is Immortal.
Lux of Ipse
Spirence.

[godgoo]

Jesus Christ brother of joseph.

[phildee3]

Jesus Christ brother of joseph.

Or half-brother?

Matthew says he had brothers named James, Joseph, Simon and Judas - and sisters too (Mt.13.54-56).
But in Mt.1.25 he says that Mary and her spouse, Joseph, did not have a sexual relationship until after the birth of Jesus -
"but [Joseph] knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus."
Emphasis on the word "until".

[madthumbs]

Jesus is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

"I&#39;m My Own Grandpa" Performed by Dennis Warner - YouTube

[ben87]

The 3 headed beast!

http://vox2.cdn.amiestreet.com/band-picture/King-Geedorah_1pvRNjsoh8Ex_full.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/collective/dnaimages/030613/geedorah.jpg

http://www.aatraders.com/profile_images/1538.jpg

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/8885015/King+Geedorah+King+Ghidorah1.jpg

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/8885185/King+Geedorah+King+Ghidorah2.jpg

[ben87]

http://www.fyms.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/AF906193BB.jpg

[kronoix]

http://malibucola.ricjo.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/default.jpg

[nickos]

...and jesus was doubtfully born in a stable!BUT however i believe he may have been CONCEIVED in a stable! i doubt jesus was on good terms with his parents once his 'messiah belief' started, therefore he probably heard a 'voice' say he was 'born in a stable'-just like i(THIS century's messiah)heard 'you werre born in a northlondon council flat'!i was actually born in a north london hospital. MY 'beliefs'?go to www.kingstuddos-thesunking.co.uk/ to find out more! basically, i AM the 'new messiah'!i WAS anointed, or should that be appointed?check my site to find out EXACTLY what i'm going on about!all will be revealed!

[curtisrascist]

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/07/weekend_diversion_i_am_alterin/darth-vader.jpg
awesome haha

[luciferhorus]

This thread just goes on and on and on.

According to conventional Christian theology, Jesus if God and God impregnated Mary.

Thus God (i.e. Jesus) is the father of Jesus (i.e., God).

It is through an incestuous relationship between Jesus (i.e., God) and his mother (the Mother of God) that the Mother of God was impregnated, making Jesus of course a "Mother-Impregnator."

This is the orthodox Christian position and anyone who refutes this is obviously a blasphemer and a heretic.

Lux

For Blasphemy, Heresy, War, Revolution, etc.

[phildee3]

According to conventional Christian theology, Jesus if God and God impregnated Mary.

Thus God (i.e. Jesus) is the father of Jesus (i.e., God).



I find it quite astounding that a man with your intelligence should post something so blatantly stupid.

You know very well that, according to conventional Christian theology, Mary was impregnated by one of the three aspects of "God" - the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was a manifestation of one of the other aspects - the logos.