David Icke on Christianity

[tannah]

This is what this forum was probably created for, to expose corruption.
Some of you assholes think I'm the one being rude. That's because you just don't want to understand how you are supporters of real vulgarity. You supporters of a God of genocide and hell-sender give energy to dark forces, and all your turning up of noses and unreasoned denials count for very little.

You piss me off bible freaks. Your blindness is astounding. Watch this and learn about where you get your vile beliefs from.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8469389811298138021#

[jesusistruth]

Ok I'm watching it. First impression is that Icke shows a little of his ignorance when he equates the Catholic church with Christianity. But lets consider his standpoint, what do we then say about:

Levi H. Dowling
Edgar Cayce
The Essenes
Gnostic Gospels

?

[jesusistruth]

What's the connection between the Bible condemming sacrifices to Molok? And how does this God differ from 'Satan', the supposodely Good God by many on this forum?

[tannah]

Ok I'm watching it. First impression is that Icke shows a little of his ignorance when he equates the Catholic church with Christianity. But lets consider his standpoint, what do we then say about:

Levi H. Dowling
Edgar Cayce
The Essenes
Gnostic Gospels

?

Oh blah! Get yourself another book if you don't like what the elites did with the bible.

You keep using the "Christan" word about yourself. You're not. You're a bible freak, a book designed to keep people from waking up. A Christian has, at some point, overcome the bible hurdle. A Christian doesn't bullshit himself and close his ears. He keeps them open and tries to be honest.

Why do you think gnostic books disappeared, and a bible was constructed bearing all the usual symbolism of the ruling elite? Why didn't they want some of the many other books by the real disciples, and settled for a Paul collection instead?

You're supporting corruption. This Babylon religion you throw at others seeps out of your own asses.

Bible freaks who speak of the NWO are really doing the NWO bidding. The elites know it's their book, and they know full well that the committed bible freak will be promoting the sleepy state in others. Call it NWO insurance policy and a piss take at the same time; a 6000 year old universe and a God coming back to take the power away from the ruling elite. You should be so lucky bible freaks. You don't even allow yourselves or others the way to your Christ Self. The elites absolutely love you. When they hear of some fundie shooting biblical verses and warning about hell, they laugh their butts off, because that's exactly where they're keeping you, in the dark. They know full well that as long as they keep you from your Higher Christ Self they remain in power, and this tale they put in its place about some outside saviour coming to take their power away is BS.

And what about the Essenes and Cayce?

[jesusistruth]

And what about the Essenes and Cayce?

According to Icke, Jesus didn't exist. And if he did, then that's a helluva prophecy to be fulfilled.

[tannah]

What's the connection between the Bible condemming sacrifices to Molok? And how does this God differ from 'Satan', the supposodely Good God by many on this forum?

Actually the dark force is the God you are worshipping at the moment. Names and labels are one thing but what one worships goes far deeper than these names. You worship the same symbology as the old Babylonian religion.

Now you condemn Catholicism. Doesn't their bible say "Dudes don't worship molok"? No, you guys quibble over your "Jesus is God symbolism", and that is your connection to the old Babylonian worship. You believe Mary was a Virgin who gave birth to God no? You believe in hell and eternal damnation no? You believe Jesus/God is the only way to Heaven no? You are bible freaks as much as the Catholics are.

[tannah]

According to Icke, Jesus didn't exist. And if he did, then that's a helluva prophecy to be fulfilled.


Whether Jesus existed or not, we know that the symbolism has done for many thousands of years.

I think Masters do incarnate here, and the ruling elite absorb and twist their teaching. That's why I don't committ my heart to ANY book. However, some things have reason as their basis, and that is the way to approach truth IMO.

[jesusistruth]

Whether Jesus existed or not, we know that the symbolism has done for many thousands of years.

I think Masters do incarnate here, and the ruling elite absorb and twist their teaching. That's why I don't committ my heart to ANY book. However, some things have reason as their basis, and that is the way to approach truth IMO.

Was it necessary for him to fulfill the Jewish prophecy and make us all into Jews? Couldn't he have come to like India or America instead and create an elite society of Witches that would liberate the world? I bet you I could find a thousand better ways to incarnate and spread the good news than voluntarily ending up on a cross.

[tannah]

Was it necessary for him to fulfill the Jewish prophecy and make us all into Jews? Couldn't he have come to like India or America instead and create an elite society of Witches that would liberate the world? I bet you I could find a thousand better ways to incarnate and spread the good news than voluntarily ending up on a cross.

That's just poppycock mate.. WTF are you going on about? How about you come to this thread to rebuke what DI says that video?

How do you know he fulfilled Jewish prophecy? Jews don't seem to think so.

And what about Ishtar/Tummuz, are Jesus and Mary fulfiiling that Babylonian symbolism as a "Fulfill one get one free"?

The cross is another detail that has you fixated to bible-babble. Have you researched the cross?

Have you looked into the number 12? 12 disciples, Sun/Son, 12 star signs etc?

[jesusistruth]

That's just poppycock mate.. WTF are you going on about? How about you come to this thread to rebuke what DI says that video?

Hey man you said it yourself he was an incarnated master, that already rebukes what Icke is talking about.

How do you know he fulfilled Jewish prophecy? Jews don't seem to think so.

They seem more hung up on the tradition that what the scripture actually says.



And what about Ishtar/Tummuz, are Jesus and Mary fulfiiling that Babylonian symbolism as a "Fulfill one get one free"?

The cross is another detail that has you fixated to bible-babble. Have you researched the cross?

Have you looked into the number 12? 12 disciples, Sun/Son, 12 star signs etc?

Well let us start with that Jesus existed and then go from there...

Where's the source for that horus was the lamb of God?

[tannah]

Don't forget to answer this JIT.

Now you condemn Catholicism. Doesn't their bible say "Dudes don't worship molok"? No, you guys quibble over your "Jesus is God symbolism", and that is your connection to the old Babylonian worship. You believe Mary was a Virgin who gave birth to God no? You believe in hell and eternal damnation no? You believe Jesus/God is the only way to Heaven no? You are bible freaks as much as the Catholics are.

[jesusistruth]

Now you condemn Catholicism. Doesn't their bible say "Dudes don't worship molok"? No, you guys quibble over your "Jesus is God symbolism", and that is your connection to the old Babylonian worship.
Well the Dagon outfit, 25 december, easter, veneration of Mary, everything you find find in the churches etc.. none of that comes from the Bible.

You believe Mary was a Virgin who gave birth to God no?

Yes.

In regard to this, what do you think of Billy Meier?

You believe in hell and eternal damnation no?
What does that have to do with Babylon and what Icke said?
You believe Jesus/God is the only way to Heaven no?
What does that have to do with Babylon and what Icke said?

You are bible freaks as much as the Catholics are.

No, I'm more of a bible freak. Catholics seem to be busy worshipping statues.

[orlibonurb]

This is what this forum was probably created for, to expose corruption.
Some of you assholes think I'm the one being rude. That's because you just don't want to understand how you are supporters of real vulgarity. You supporters of a God of genocide and hell-sender give energy to dark forces, and all your turning up of noses and unreasoned denials count for very little.

You piss me off bible freaks. Your blindness is astounding. Watch this and learn about where you get your vile beliefs from.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8469389811298138021#


hahaha

david icke again tannah ??????

William Cooper exposes David Icke
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

http://www.icke-exposed.co.uk/

David "Diversion" Icke agent exposure
http://z10.invisionfree.com/The_Unhived_Mind_II/index.php?showtopic=2932

David Icke - Freemason ?
David Icke - Freemason ? - YouTube


tannah "New Age" icke, wake up to life. This is what happens when you follow MAN, more specifically - disinformation agents. You get what your brain is capable of.

Icke, the son of God lol - and you claim others are deceived . . . insanity at it's best. This Icke charater even gets his place on TV. Come out from your deep sleep paralysis.

Have you looked into the number 12? 12 disciples, Sun/Son, 12 star signs etc?

Do I smell "Zeitgeist" documentary here ? You've been had by disinfo agents. Truth movement is serious business, and most people shoulda stay in bliss, since they can't think for themselves.

David Icke + New Age movement (Zeitgeist included) are a killer machine. Beware or be eaten alive. You think life is playground ?! Just wait and see.


Total Onslaught - 223B - The New Age Agenda.avi
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1164776176933693244

A look at how all religions are converging upon a universal Christ who satisfies them all. An in-depth analysis of the new age agenda including a look at Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the use of subliminals, the new age movement, Buddhism, false christs, Benjamin Creme, and the value system of the new age movement. Using direct quotes from thought leaders in each of these fields, the curtain is stripped away, and the true purpose is revealed.

[tannah]

Icke, the son of God lol - and you claim others are deceived . . . insanity at it's best. This Icke charater even gets his place on TV. Come out from your deep sleep paralysis.



See, you don't care about truth you dark ego. As long as you can stab everyone that isn't your own in the back your ego gets its fill.

If the fuckers here wanna ban me for thinking you are one stupid blind git, that's cool. In the meantime I'm going to defeat your dark bias.
Sees you later hopefully, and we'll see who the liars are.

[edward123]

This is a quote from a poster that left the forum that might help others understand what is really going on,especially things about the vatican. . If they don't then good luck to them.
The illuminati for example did not create religion, although they want you to think that. They want you to be pagan in your beliefs. Thats why the vatican was created. They (the pagan romans ) were behind the crucifiction and many other atrocities against religious people. They realised that they could not stop people knowing the truth as it had already spread so their attitude was if you can't beat them join them. To many believers were laying down their lives without fear of death or anything else and it was only making the message stronger. So what they did was change their statues of worship to ones of figures out of the bible. This is forbidden in the bible itself and is a massive contradiction. It amounts to idol worship. They also made sure that pagan images were placed throughout all churches to trick people into pagan worship. The vatican displays its greed and corruption blatantly so to put people off religion. The vatican is the illuminati and its very purpose is to turn people away from God and look how it is working. All the ancient and pagan symbols were put there for people like icke to "discover" and discredit religion, and again it worked. Can't you see that these people are masters of deceit. As for my beliefs they do not limit me in anyway what so ever. In fact quite the opposite. You all must stop thinking about the worship that you have been shown (things like songs of praise etc.). These again are tools of the illuminati to put you off religion and its working!
I believe a lot of people attend church because they are decent people, but they don't realise that they are inadvertently being made to go into pagan orientated buildings.
Now i am someone who spent a great deal of time reading ickes books, but i'm afraid it is he that has led me to my faith.
I do not attend church and neither do i attend Christian prayer meetings as i am my own church.
As icke would say "look at the bigger picture".
The illuminati are trying to convince you that satan isn't real but he is and is in control of the most powerful tools on earth.
These are amongst other things: Hollywood, the pharmaceutical industry, the governments of the world, free masons, the media, television and just about every tool of control that you can think of.
As long as icke continues to dismiss religion he will be allowed to carry on relatively freely, but deep down he knows that if he ever changed his mind things will be alot different for him.
The illusion is that satan is not real, but he is. Look at all the satanic symbolism that is around you , on products, your clothes etc. You have been conditioned to accept satanic things and ideals as normal.
Please wake up. My beliefs free me from the delusion that exists on a lot of these threads. However, i wish you all the best with whatever you beleive in, but ask you to be careful. I gain nothing whatsoever whether you stick to your beliefs or change your mind.
Becareful and open your eyes and look around you not in a book.
I make no excuse for my Christianity and will not get into a battle with you. The battle is over, already won. It was won over 2,000 years ago and nothing will change that.
.


I always thought it was a very well put together post and makes so much sense.

[kasalt]

How do you know he fulfilled Jewish prophecy? Jews don't seem to think so.


They seem more hung up on the tradition that what the scripture actually says.

Jews would argue the reverse: that it is you who are hung up on your Christian tradition, rather than on what the Hebrew scripture actually says. If the case can be made compellingly that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament messianic prophecies, then why didn't the Jews accept his him as messiah? Do you even know what their reasons are for not doing so?

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus? (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66093)

[edward123]

I don't think that icke knows it, but his view of Christianity is the exact one that the nwo/illuminati want him to promote. They have made it so easy for him and the other authors he has heavily borrowed off to "unearth" the so called secrets that they put out there for them to find. If the consequences weren't so dire it would be comical.

[jesusistruth]

Jews would argue the reverse: that it is you who are hung up on your Christian tradition, rather than on what the Hebrew scripture actually says. If the case can be made compellingly that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament messianic prophecies, then why didn't the Jews accept his him as messiah? Do you even know what their reasons are for not doing so?

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus? (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66093)

Either that or Daniel was a false prophet.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/prophecy-about-jesus.htm

Pick and choose.

[kasalt]

Either that or Daniel was a false prophet.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/prophecy-about-jesus.htm

Pick and choose.

Again, I would have to ask you, if that interpretation of the Daniel prophecy is correct, don't you think the Jews would have known it?

____________

A prophecy relating to the time of the Messiah which many evangelical Christians find extremely convincing is found in the book of Daniel. It is probably no exaggeration to say that this prophecy, more than any other, convinces Christians that Jesus was the Messiah. Daniel 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:24-27;&version=49;) says: Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.
So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
The word translated in these verses as "weeks" is a form of the Hebrew word for "sevens," and is interpreted by Christians to mean seven years rather than seven days. Thus "seventy weeks" in verse 24 is interpreted to mean seventy periods of seven years, or 490 years, "seven weeks" in verse 25 is interpreted to mean 49 years, "sixty-two weeks" in verses 25 and 26 is interpreted to mean 434 years, and "one week" in verse 27 is interpreted to mean seven years.

The starting point of the prophecy is the "issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." A decree described in the Bible to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem is found in 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%2036:22-23;&version=49;) and Ezra 1:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%201:1-4;&version=49;). These verses describe the decree issued by Cyrus, king of Persia and contemporary of Daniel, in 538 B.C.E. "Seven weeks and sixty-two weeks," or 483 years, after this decree would be 55 B.C.E., many years too soon for Jesus.

So Christians must reject the equation of the decree in verse 25 with that of Cyrus, and they do. What other decrees are available? Josh McDowell (1972, p. 180) offers three alternatives: a decree of Darius described in the book of Ezra, a decree of Artaxerxes described in Ezra, and a decree of Artaxerxes described in Nehemiah. The decree of Darius, described in Ezra 6:1-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%206:1-9;&version=49;), was to conduct a search of the archives to find the text of the decree of Cyrus, and then to resume the construction of the temple at Jerusalem using tax money. This occurred around 522 B.C.E. (see Ezra 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%204:24;&version=49;)), which would put the coming of the Messiah at 39 B.C.E.--still too early for Jesus.

The decree of Artaxerxes to Ezra described in Ezra 7:11-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%207:11-28;&version=49;) allows for the people of Israel to return to Jerusalem, taking with them various support from the royal treasury. This decree was issued in 458 B.C.E. (see Ezra 7:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%207:7;&version=49;)), which would put the coming of the Messiah at 26 C.E. This works fairly well if you take the end of the "sixty-two weeks" to be the beginning of Jesus' ministry, though most Christians take the end point to be the crucifixion due to the reference in verse 26 of the Daniel prophecy to the Messiah being "cut off." Most Christians reject this decree, as well as those of Cyrus and Darius, as being the appropriate starting point for the prophecy. One exception is Gleason Archer. Archer (1982, pp. 290-291) argues that Ezra 9:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%209:9;&version=49;) implies that Ezra was given permission by Artaxerxes to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, despite the fact that they were not rebuilt until the time of Nehemiah (see Nehemiah 1:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Nehemiah%201:3;&version=49;). Ezra 9:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra%209:9;&version=49;) states that God has not forsaken the Jews but has given them a chance "to raise up the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem." In defense of the end point of the "sixty-two weeks" being the beginning of Jesus' ministry rather than his crucifixion, Archer points out that verse 26 of the prophecy says only that the Messiah's being "cut off" occurs after that time period, not necessarily immediately after it.

The decree of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah described in Nehemiah 2:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Nehemiah%202:1-6;&version=49;) is really no decree at all. Rather, Artaxerxes gives Nehemiah letters of safe conduct for travel to Judah and to obtain timber to rebuild the gates of the temple and the walls of Jerusalem. This occurred in 445 B.C.E., putting the time of the Messiah at 39 C.E., too late for Jesus, who is believed to have been crucified some time between 29 and 33 C.E. Despite these flaws, most evangelical Christians adopt this as the appropriate decree because Nehemiah rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem. In order to make the 445 B.C.E. starting point result in an ending point 483 years later that is either at the beginning of Jesus' ministry or at the time of the crucifixion, something other than a 365-day year must be used. The most popular such calculation, due to Sir Robert Anderson and promoted by Josh McDowell, is to adopt a "360-day prophetic year"--an invention of Anderson based on his reading of Revelation 11:2-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:2-3;&version=49;), where he equates 42 months with 1260 days, giving 30 days per month. Using "prophetic years" puts the end of the 483-year period at 32 C.E., believed by many to be the year of the crucifixion. Robert Newman (1990, pp. 112-114) points out several flaws in this calculation scheme which together are fatal to it: (1) Revelation 11:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:23;&version=49;) does not justify the invention of the "prophetic year," because there is no indication that 1260 days is said to be exactly 42 months (it could be 41.5 rounded up), (2) a 360-day year would get out of synch with the seasons, and the Jews added an extra lunar month every two or three years to their 354-day lunar year, giving them an average year length of about 365 days, and (3) the present consensus on the date of the crucifixion is 30 C.E. rather than 32 C.E.

Newman offers his own alternative: the use of sabbatical years, which do have biblical justification (Exodus 23:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2023:10-11;&version=49;) and Leviticus 25:3-7,18-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:3-7,18-22;&version=49;)). Every seventh year is a sabbatical year. Newman uses information from the first book of Maccabees, which has reference to an observance of a sabbatical year, to calculate that 163-162 B.C.E. was a sabbatical year and therefore 445 B.C.E., the starting point of the Daniel prophecy, falls in the seven-year sabbatical cycle 449-442 B.C.E. If this is the first sabbatical cycle in the count, the sixty-ninth is 28-35 C.E., a time period that the crucifixion falls in. In response to the criticism that the prophecy says that the Messiah will be "cut off" after sixty-two weeks, Newman says that in conventional Jewish idiom "after" means "after the beginning of."

There are further problems for all of the above interpretations, which Gerald Sigal (1981, pp. 109-122) points out. Foremost among Sigal's criticisms is that the Masoretic punctuation of the Hebrew Bible places a division between the "seven weeks and sixty-two weeks," meaning that rather than stating that the Messiah will come after the combined time periods, he will come after the "seven weeks" alone. Another criticism Sigal makes is that the Hebrew text does not put a definite article in front of the word "Messiah" (or "anointed one"). The Revised Standard Version of the Bible is translated with these facts in mind, and it gives the Daniel 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:24-27;&version=49;) as follows: Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.

Using the Masoretic punctuation, the "sixty-two weeks" goes with the rebuilding of the city rather than with the coming of the Messiah. This interpretation explains why "seven weeks and sixty-two weeks" are given separately, rather than simply stating "sixty-nine weeks." Most apologists are either unaware of or ignore the Masoretic punctuation, but Robert Newman (1990, p. 116) rejects it on the grounds that "such punctuation may not date back before the ninth or tenth century AD" and that the structure of the verses as a whole favor his interpretation.

The result of all this? The Daniel prophecy is not nearly so convincing as it might initially appear to someone presented only with one of the interpretations that "works." It is not surprising that with four choices for beginning points (the decrees of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes, plus the letters of Artaxerxes for Nehemiah), several possible choices for end points (the birth, ministry, and crucifixion of Jesus), and at least three ways of counting (ordinary years, "prophetic years," and sabbatical cycles) calculations have been found for which Jesus fits the prophecy. There are good reasons to reject each of these interpretations. The first two choices for beginning points don't work for any offered interpretations. The Artaxerxes decree works for ordinary years with the ministry of Jesus as the end point, but says nothing about rebuilding Jerusalem. The Artaxerxes letters work for sabbatical cycles with the crucifixion as an end point, but they are not a decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. Rather, they gave Nehemiah safe conduct to Judah and permission to use lumber from the royal forests. Finally, none of them take into consideration the Masoretic punctuation, which, if not itself in error, eliminates all of them as possible interpretations of the text.

Source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html

[michael christopher]

When we argue against these dark vessels (Roman-Christians which populate this forum and pollute it with vile propaganda) we might as well just be slamming our heads into a brick wall.

They don't have ethics or morals, they don't adhere to one particular code as most people who have a sense of spirituality do. They jump around and contradict themselves, they enact any sort of evil and turn it around on you. They aren't interested in what you have to say, they only want to drag you down to their level so they can hypocritically point at you and use you as an example to scare other weak-minded sheep into bowing down and praying to their arch-demon overlord Yahweh. Why do you think they come here? They will say it's to "save souls." But to evil people, to people with Hellish spirits, to save a soul means to drag it back into Hell. They think that is salvation. They worship reliance and dependence on the Other, the demi-urge. They honestly think Evil is Good and Good is Evil. What can you say to such a deranged idea? They are your sworn enemy, tannah. And mine. And any non-Christian/non-Muslim/non-Jew (not many Jews here though, seems to me). If you don't worship the same God they do - the god of Ego, the Qliphothic Chesed Yahweh - then you are nothing but a demon to them, worthy of the most vile insults and accusations. They don't care about your feelings, in fact they want to shatter them. They want to reduce you to absolute squalor and misery, they want you to become enraged and entrenched in the same darkness that binds them. They want your vibration to be lowered to the same level as theirs. This is why you cannot argue with them. This is why you cannot engage them. They feed off of you, like leeches or vampires. They are out for blood. You are an apostate to them and since they can't literally kill you as the Bible commands, they intend to spiritually kill you because they believe you deserve it.

No point arguing against them, or calling them names. They can only be exposed. So instead of trying to reason with people who are the openly declared enemies of reason, it's best to reason with the people they are trying to brainwash by pointing out their nasty little tactics.

Also, I don't think they're winning any converts anyway. All Orli has managed to do is piss off most of the people on this forum, but I don't think anyone has ever said "You know, I didn't think about becoming a Christian until I saw Orli's 509239048th YouTube video! It was that last one that did it for me!"

No, posters like this are a black hole that come here to suck the light out of you. Evil vessels are bridges back to evil masters. Evil isn't interested in playing fair and using rationality or reason. It only wants to hurt you and terrify you, and in a best/worse case scenario, it wants to drag you down into Hell with it by feeding into your darkness.

[cinder_darkskys]

David Icke - Analysis of Christianity. 45:59 - 3 years ago. A clip taken from a lecture at Mt. Shasta A clip taken from a lecture at Mt. Shasta


David Icke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Personal life and career|Changes|Key ideas|ReceptionDavid Vaughan Icke is an English writer and public speaker who has devoted himself since 1990 to researching what he calls "who and what is really controlling the world."


In 2008
Born David Vaughan Icke
29 April 1952 (1952-04-29) (age 57)
Leicester, England
Residence Ryde, Isle of Wight, England
Nationality British
Occupation Writer and speaker
Years active Since 1990
Known for Television sports presentation, 16 books on global politics, reptilian humanoid and problem-reaction-solution conspiracy theories
Spouse(s) Linda Atherton, Pamela Leigh Richards
Children Kerry (1975), Gareth (1981), Rebecca (1991), Jaymie (1992)
Parents Beric Vaughan Icke
Barbara J. Icke (née Cooke)
Relatives Trevor and Paul (brothers)

LoL could they tell his Dogs Name

David Vaughan Icke (pronounced /aɪk/; born April 29, 1952) is an English writer and public speaker who has devoted himself since 1990 to researching what he calls "who and what is really controlling the world."[1] Describing himself as "the most controversial speaker and author in the world," he has written 16 books explaining his views, characterized as New Age conspiracism, and has attracted a substantial following across the political spectrum.[2] His books have been translated into eight languages, he runs a website that receives 600,000 hits a week, and his lecture tours, during which he speaks for up to eight hours at a time, attracted audiences of 30,000 between 2000 and 2006.[3] His 533-page The Biggest Secret has been called the conspiracy theorist's Rosetta Stone.[4]

Icke was a well-known BBC television sports presenter and spokesman for the British Green Party, when, at the age of 38, he had an encounter with a psychic who told him he was a healer who had been placed on Earth for a purpose.[5] In April 1991, he announced on the BBC's Terry Wogan show that he was the son of God—arguing later that he had been misunderstood—and predicted that the world would soon be devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes.[6] The show changed his life, turning him almost overnight from a respected household name into an object of public ridicule.[3]

He nevertheless continued to develop his ideas, and in four books published over seven years—The Robots' Rebellion (1994), And the Truth Shall Set You Free (1995), The Biggest Secret (1999), and Children of the Matrix (2001)—set out a moral and political worldview that combines New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of what he sees as totalitarian trends in the modern world. At its heart lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood created and controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.[7]

Icke has been criticized for linking his ideas to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a 1903 Russian forgery purporting to be a plan by the Jewish people to achieve world domination. Icke argues that the Protocols was written by the reptilians. He strongly denies that this idea is antisemitic, but the linkage has nevertheless attracted the attention of the far right and the suspicion of Jewish groups.[8] He was detained by immigration officials when he tried to enter Canada on a speaking tour in 1999, and was allowed to proceed only after persuading them that when he said lizards, he meant lizards, but his books were still removed from the shelves of Indigo Books after protests from the Canadian Jewish Congress.[9] Icke and the Canadian tour became the focus in 2001 of a documentary by British journalist Jon Ronson, David Icke, the Lizards and the Jews.[10]

Seem like my kind of guy, hell bent for leather, to make change.
editing
PeaceLovesAll

[kasalt]

Either that or Daniel was a false prophet.

Pick and choose.

Not only would you have to ask yourself why Jews do not agree with the Christian interpretation of Daniel's "Seventy weeks" prophecy, but you would also have to ask yourself why this claim never appears in the New Testament as well. After all, the gospels often refer back to Old Testament passages as evidence that Jesus fulfilled those prophecies, so why didn't they cite this one as well?

Here is what the opinion of biblical scholars is on Daniel's prophecy:Modern Biblical scholars, the Jewish Encyclopedia,[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-jewishen-12) the Jewish Publication Society study bible, the Catholic New American Bible[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-13) and some Evangelical Christian scholars (Vanderwaal, Goldingay, Lucas) all concur that it was an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_eventu prophecy fulfilled in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The "anointed," the "prince," mentioned after the first seven times seven units, must be Cyrus the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, who is called the anointed of the Lord in Isaiah 45:1 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/45-1.htm) also. He concluded the first seven weeks of years by issuing the decree of liberation, and the time that elapsed between the Chaldean destruction of Jerusalem (586) and the year 538 was just about forty-nine years. The duration of the sixty-two times seven units (434 years) does not correspond with the time 538-171 (367 years); but the chronological knowledge of that age[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-jewishen-12)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-14) and the historical knowledge of the author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Historical_accuracy) was not very exact.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-15) This is all the more evident as the last period of seven units must include the seven years 170-164.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-16) This week of years began with the "cutting off of an anointed one" (9:26 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:26&src=HE))— referring to the murder of the legitimate high priest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onias_III in 170 BC; the "destruction of the city" (9:26 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:26&src=HE)) refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the desolation of the Temple in 168 BC by the forces of Antiochus (1 Macc 1:29-39 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=1%20Macc&verse=1:29-39&src=nrsv)); the "unto the end of the war" (9:26 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:26&src=HE)) refers to the end of the Sixth Syrian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Wars#Sixth_Syrian_War_.28170-168_BC.29) when Antiochus vented his anger on Jerusalem after suffering a humiliating defeat against Egypt (cf Daniel 11:30 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=11:30&src=niv)); the "strong covenant" (9:27 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:27&src=HE)) refers to a treaty between Tobiads - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Antiochus; the "cessation of sacrifice and offering" (9:27 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:27&src=HE)) refers to the decree of Antiochus suspending temple offerings in 167 BC; the "Abomination of Desolation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" (9:27 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:27&src=HE)) refers to the altar of Zeus which Antiochus set up in the temple; and the anointing of the Holy of Holies (9:24 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Daniel&verse=9:24&src=HE)) refers to the Hanukkah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in 164 BC.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#cite_note-17)
An account of these events is found in Daniel 8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Daniel 11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and in the intertestamental book of 1 Maccabees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (1:10-63 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=1%20Maccabees&verse=1:10-63&src=%21), 4:26-59 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=1%20Maccabees&verse=4:26-59&src=%21)).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#Scholarly_viewpoint

[armoured_amazon]

Ok I'm watching it. First impression is that Icke shows a little of his ignorance when he equates the Catholic church with Christianity. But lets consider his standpoint, what do we then say about:

Levi H. Dowling
Edgar Cayce
The Essenes
Gnostic Gospels

?

A little? He has no clue. The sooner he sucks it up and admits to himself his reptilians are nothing more than demons, the sooner he can show his followers the right path, instead of half-truths. I don't think he intentionally deceives, mind.

[1776]

hahaha

david icke again tannah ??????

William Cooper exposes David Icke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JhszZIVIg8

http://www.icke-exposed.co.uk/

David "Diversion" Icke agent exposure
http://z10.invisionfree.com/The_Unhived_Mind_II/index.php?showtopic=2932

David Icke - Freemason ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH0ojeYviVs


tannah "New Age" icke, wake up to life. This is what happens when you follow MAN, more specifically - disinformation agents. You get what your brain is capable of.

Icke, the son of God lol - and you claim others are deceived . . . insanity at it's best. This Icke charater even gets his place on TV. Come out from your deep sleep paralysis.



Do I smell "Zeitgeist" documentary here ? You've been had by disinfo agents. Truth movement is serious business, and most people shoulda stay in bliss, since they can't think for themselves.

David Icke + New Age movement (Zeitgeist included) are a killer machine. Beware or be eaten alive. You think life is playground ?! Just wait and see.


Total Onslaught - 223B - The New Age Agenda.avi
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1164776176933693244

That one really back-fired, eh Tannah? :p


You are so full of hatred, it SPEWS through all your posts. You are part of the problem, not the solution.

Peace&Love
God bless

[1776]

A little? He has no clue. The sooner he sucks it up and admits to himself his reptilians are nothing more than demons, the sooner he can show his followers the right path, instead of half-truths. I don't think he intentionally deceives, mind.

Well said, friend.

I'm not sure if he intentionally deceives or not, it's hard to say sometimes with what he comes out with. He's so misinformed with "Christianity", it's not even close. So it's really hard to see where he's coming from with lots of his "material" and "information".


Peace&Love
God bless

[armoured_amazon]

I don't think that icke knows it, but his view of Christianity is the exact one that the nwo/illuminati want him to promote. They have made it so easy for him and the other authors he has heavily borrowed off to "unearth" the so called secrets that they put out there for them to find. If the consequences weren't so dire it would be comical.

Yup. People need to realise that being in Christ is not the image the world has of Christianity. They need to figure out, "Well, duh, all this stuff is happening as it was foretold. Maybe there's some truth to it!"

And they need a good dose o'the Holy Ghost! :D

Well said, friend.

I'm not sure if he intentionally deceives or not, it's hard to say sometimes with what he comes out with. He's so misinformed with "Christianity", it's not even close. So it's really hard to see where he's coming from with lots of his "material" and "information".


Peace&Love
God bless

Yeah, there's always the chance he's controlled opposition.

God bless you, too. :D

*slopes off to bed*

[tannah]

That one really back-fired, eh Tannah? :p


You are so full of hatred, it SPEWS through all your posts. You are part of the problem, not the solution.

Peace&Love
God bless

You're bonkers subtle-hateful-dudey. I don't set myself up as a robot with a script. I'm unashamedly pissed at the intolerable false self righteous idiots who mistake their being blind-again with being born-again.

Your false accusations about me are just accusing you instead.


So no, no backfire deadwire. As support to what Icke says in that video, I'm going to skip my own merry way and look up a few older origins to the bible soaps, that somehow leave your God seeming quite uncreative and in fact a plaguarist. If God authored, tailored and even divinely edited the bible, then he was a fan of various older cultures.




I understand that certain motifs associated with Dumuzi/Tammuz and his companion Ningishzida came to be assimilated to Jesus Christ in New Testament times, being fused with additional resurrection motifs from the Greek 'god of the Vine' (wine), Dionysus. Could the "branch" held to the nose of certain reprobate Jewish priests/worshippers in Ezekiel's vision (Ezek 8:17) be alluding to the two branches being held by the god Dumuzi/Tammuz who stands on the Serpent-dragon in the below seal ? That is to say the Tammuzi/Dumuzi cult was introduced to Jerusalem by some Jewish priests by Exilic times and perhaps some of these concepts came to be fused to the Messiah-Christ by some heretical Jewish groups by Christian times ? Dumuzi's branch, which symbolizes him as the Spring vegetation may have come to be reinterpreted as the Davidic "branch" associated with the Messiah (Jer 23:5) ? Christ is portrayed as a bridegroom who _willingly_ lays down his life in the Spring as a surrogate in Hell for his "bride" the Church, whereas Dumuzi also called in hymns "the bridegroom," is an _unwilling_ surrogate for his bride, Inanna. Inanna was three days and nights in the underworld before being released and the same period holds for Christ. Dumuzi is allowed a resurrection from Hell in the Spring for six months each year because his sister Geshtinanna was _willing_ to become his surrogate for him rather like Christ. Christ is called the "True Vine," and Geshtinanna means "Lady of the Vinestock or Grape-vine."

http://www.bibleorigins.net/TammuzDumuziDamuSeal.html




I recommend you read the whole page. Seems like the three days in hell and then resurrected myth (especially in the spring) gives the shephards a buzz.
Obviously now one has to check out Inanna.


Inanna (Sumerian ���� DINANNA; Akkadian DINGIRINANNA DINANA ) is the Sumerian goddess of sexual love, fertility, and warfare. Alternative Sumerian names include Innin, Ennin, Ninnin, Ninni, Ninanna, Ninnar, Innina, Ennina, Irnina, Innini, Nana and Nin, commonly derived from an earlier Nin-ana "lady of the sky", although Gelb (1960) presented the suggestion that the oldest form is Innin (DINNIN) and that Ninni, Nin-anna and Irnina are independent goddesses in origin.[1] Her Akkadian counterpart is Ishtar.

As early as the Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BCE) it would appear Inanna was associated with the city of Uruk.

******

Worship

Along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers were many shrines and temples dedicated to Inanna. The temple of Eanna, meaning "house of heaven" or "house of An"[6] in Uruk[7] was the greatest of these. The god of this fourth-millennium city was probably originally An. After its dedication to Inanna the temple seems to have housed priestesses of the goddess. The high priestess would choose for her bed a young man who represented the shepherd Dumuzid, consort of Inanna, in a hieros gamos or sacred marriage, celebrated during the annual Akitu (New Year) ceremony, at the spring Equinox. In late Sumerian history (end of the third millennium) kings established their legitimacy by taking the place of Dumuzi in the temple for one night on the occasion of the New Year festival.[citation needed]

**********

Inanna's descent to the underworld

Most curious is perhaps the story of Inanna's descent to the underworld, which is known from a poem on a relatively intact set of tablets.

In Sumer the Underworld was a dreary, dark place; a home to deceased heroes and ordinary people alike. Based on their behavior they could be afforded better treatment or positions in the underworld.

Inanna's reason for visiting the underworld is unclear. The reason she gives to the gatekeeper of the underworld is that she wants to attend her brother-in-law Gud-gal-ana's funeral rites. Gugalana was the Bull of Heaven in The Epic of Gilgamesh, killed by Gilgamesh and Enkidu. However, this excuse may be a ruse; Inanna may have been intending to conquer the underworld. Ereshkigal [14], queen of the underworld and Inanna's sister, may have suspected this, which could explain her treatment of Inanna.

Before she left, Inanna instructed her minister and servant Ninshubur to plead with the gods Enlil, Nanna, and Enki to save her if anything went wrong because everyone that went to the Underworld never came back.

Inanna dresses elaborately for the visit, with a turban, a wig, a lapis lazuli necklace, beads upon her breast, the 'pala dress' (the ladyship garment), mascara, pectoral, a golden ring on her hand, and she held a lapis lazuli measuring rod. These garments are each representations of powerful mes she possesses. Perhaps Inanna's garments, unsuitable for a funeral, along with Inanna's haughty behaviour make Ereshkigal suspicious[15].

Following Ereshkigal's instructions, the gatekeeper tells Inanna she may enter the first gate of the underworld, but she must hand over her lapis lazuli measuring rod. She asks why and is told 'It is just the ways of the Underworld'. She obliges and passes through. Inanna passes through a total of seven gates, each removing a piece of clothing or jewelry she had been wearing at the start of her journey, thus stripping her of her power.

When she arrives in front of her sister she is naked. "After she had crouched down and had her clothes removed, they were carried away. Then she made her sister Erec-ki-gala rise from her throne, and instead she sat on her throne. The Anna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death. They spoke to her -- it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her -- it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook."

Ereškigal's hate for Inanna could be referenced in a few other myths. Ereškigal is seen as an accidental 'black sheep' of sorts. She can not leave her kingdom of the Underworld to join the other 'living' Gods and they can not visit her in the Underworld or else they can never return. Inanna symbolized love (in the sense of eros) and fertility and contrasts with Ereškigal.

Three days and three nights passed and Ninshubur, following instructions, went to Enlil, Nanna, and Enki's temples and demanded they save the Goddess of Love. The first two gods refused saying it was her own mess but Enki was deeply troubled and agreed to help. He created two sexless figures (neither male nor female) named gala-tura and the kur-jara from the dirt under the fingernails of the gods. He instructed they were to appease Ereškigal and when asked what they wanted they were to ask for Inanna's corpse and sprinkle it with the food and water of life. However when they come before Ereshkigal, she is in agony like a woman giving birth, and she offers them what they want, including life-giving rivers of water and fields of grain, if they can relieve her; nonetheless they take only the corpse.

Things went as Enki said and the gala-tura and the kur-jara were able to revive Inanna. Demons of Ereškigal's followed (or accompanied) Inanna out of the underworld and demanded she wasn’t free to go until someone took her place. They first came upon Nincurba and asked to take her. Inanna refused saying she had helped her as she had asked. They next came upon Cara, Inanna's beautician, still in mourning. The demons said they would take them but Inanna refused for he had been there for her. They next came upon Lulal also in mourning. The demons offered to take him but Inanna refused.

They next came upon Dumuzi, Inanna's husband. He was sitting in nice clothing underneath a tree and enjoying himself despite his wife supposedly still being missing in the underworld. Inanna, displeased, decrees that the demons shall take him - and herself uses the same "look of death" etc that were previously used upon her by Ereshkigal. Dumuzi tried to escape his fate but a fly told Inanna and the demons where he was. However, Dumuzi's sister, out of love for him, begged to be allowed to take his place. It was then decreed that Dumuzi spent half the year in the underworld and his sister take the other half. Inanna eventually regrets sending her husband to the underworld and begins to miss him. The fertility that she controls with her godly powers begins to fade when she misses her husband during the 6 months that he is in the underworld a year. This infertile time corresponds to the fall and winter months. When her husband's sister is in the underworld and Dumuzi is with Inanna, everything is filled with love and with life; this time corresponds to Spring and Summer.
[edit] Interpretations of the Inanna descent myth

The union of Inanna and Ereshkigal

Additionally, the myth can be described as a union of Inanna with her own "dark side", her twin sister-self, Ereshkigal, as when she ascends it is with Ereshkigal's powers, while Inanna is in the underworld it is Ereshkigal who apparently takes on fertility powers, and the poem ends with a line in praise, not of Inanna, but of Ereshkigal. It is in many ways a praise-poem dedicated to the more negative aspect's of Inanna's domain, symbolic of an acceptance of the necessity of death to the continuance of life. It can also be interpreted as being about the psychological power of a descent into the unconscious, realizing one's own strength through an episode of seeming powerlessness, and/or an acceptance of one's own negative qualities, as it is by Joseph Campbell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna


Now why they wanna pin the three day hell experience on Jesus for? Rising at Easter, pretty bloody close to a pagan spring equinoxe celebration eh 177666?.:D:eek:

[torus]

From the Icke-exposed link provided.

"Any close examination of Icke, shows him to be a man who ruthlessly exploits very tired, worn out, anti-semitic 'conspiracy theories' to help boost his own prominence."

What a load....

Beware of those who FOR THEIR OWN SELF-GLORIFICATION slap a symbol of the Third Reich on someone's face.

Imaginary scene from David's life; TAKE 1!

"Hmmm, as I sit alone here in my one-room apartment and scheme my way to stardom.....I ponder the most efficient way to boost my prominence......Well, too late to become a concert pianist, not to mention the arthritis....I've got to think.....THAT'S IT!!! I'LL BECOME AN ANTI-SEMITE!!!! It's SO popular!!!"

[torus]

The anti-semitic smear is losing its efficacy in one sense, and gaining in another. Excerpts from a recent article concerning Hajo Meyer.

Dr Meyer also insisted the definition of “anti-Semitic” had now changed, saying: “Formerly an anti-Semite was somebody who hated Jews because they were Jews and had a Jewish soul. But nowadays an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.”

“It may be that Israel is not the most cruel country in the world … but one thing I know for sure is that Israel is the world champion in pretending to be civilised and cultured.”

“Hajo knows that Israel has a long history of abusing the tragic history of the Holocaust in order to suppress legitimate criticism of its own crimes.

His comments sparked a furious reaction from hardline Jewish lobby groups, with Dr Meyer branded an “anti-Semite” and accused of abusing his position as a Holocaust survivor.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschwitz-survivor-israel-acts-like-nazis-1.1000918

And while we're on the topic of "antisemitism","defaming the dead", and abusing the "holocaust" to attain prominence.....


A Jewish "artist" who converted to Buddhism claims he found a jar full of gold filled teeth which a man in Austria was selling on the street claiming they were from Jewish victims of the holocaust.

So, what did this artist do with this incridible evidence ? Destroy them all and melt the gold to make a holocaust sculpture !

Teeth are a very good source of DNA identification. ach, I should have never bought molars from a Mohel!

http://www.vosizneias.com/48026/2010/01/28/copenhagen-denmark-wiesenthal-center-cheap-exploitation-to-use-gold-teeth-in-auschwitz-sculpture

[drakul]

All Orli has managed to do is piss off most of the people on this forum, but I don't think anyone has ever said "You know, I didn't think about becoming a Christian until I saw Orli's 509239048th YouTube video! It was that last one that did it for me!"

No, posters like this are a black hole that come here to suck the light out of you. Evil vessels are bridges back to evil masters. Evil isn't interested in playing fair and using rationality or reason. It only wants to hurt you and terrify you, and in a best/worse case scenario, it wants to drag you down into Hell with it by feeding into your darkness.

I went on your blog and read some of your story - New Gods - it is well written, carries you along, has originality, mystery and suspense, it's the twilight zone, but you've made it plausible.

That said, the hatred you carry towards Christians, it seems you are the one who has been `dragged down into Hell', into a psychotic state, maybe by your `New Gods'?.

Acid burns the container my friend.

[tannah]

We see the three days in hell/resurrection myth was not unique to Jesus. Neither was the cross:


In reading the New Testament we must cease to think of the man Jesus, and even of the “Son of God”, and think of him rather of the sun of god, for this is a solar myth, and its dying hero, a dying sun. [1]

The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.

Tertullian confessed that pagans worshipped crucified saviors hanging on a cross.

"Crosses, moreover, we Christians neither venerate nor wish for. You indeed who consecrate gods of wood venerate wooden crosses, perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camps, what are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it." [1]

The pagan roots of Christianity are clearly indicated by this confession. Tertullian was a Christian who later became a Gnostic. He implies that Christians borrowed the sun-god myth.

The Pagan philosopher and satirist Celsus criticized Christians for trying to pass off the Jesus story as a new revelation when it was actually an inferior imitation of pagan myths. He asks:

Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christians-and if so, how are they unique? Or are ours to be accounted myths and theirs believed? What reasons do the Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the Christians believe, except that they believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about God.

The early Christians were painfully aware of such criticisms. How could Pagan myths which predated Christianity by hundreds of years have so much in common with the biography of the one and only savior Jesus? Desperate to come up with an explanation, the Church fathers resorted to one of the most absurd theories ever advanced. From the time of Justin Martyr in the second century onward, they declared that the Devil had plagiarized Christianity by anticipation in order to lead people astray! Knowing that the true Son of God was literally to come and walk the Earth, the Devil had copied the story of his life in advance of it happening and created the myths of Osiris-Dionysus.

**********

The followers of Tammuz also marked the forehead with a cross!

A pagan sign of the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and the Egyptians, this cross was a symbol of the Roman god Mithras and the Greek Attis, and their forerunner Tammuz, the Sumerian solar god, consort of the goddess Ishtar. Conveniently, the original form of the letter 'T' was the initial letter of the god of Tammuz. During baptism ceremonies, this cross was marked on the foreheads by the pagan priest. [3]

The cross symbol (T) was the original cross of Jesus:

The cross of Christ, as experts seem to agree, was actually a bar placed across the top of an upright, so it was not a cross at all. It was a “Tee” (T), called “Taw” in Hebrew and “Tau” in Greek. So the cross that the victim was suspended from was actually a crossbar, and perhaps in those days this was called the cross. The “Taw” sign was the symbol of the dying and rising god, Tammuz, and “Taw” was the sign that was made on the heads of those marked for salvation by the god. So, crucifixion images might not be as conventional as the ones based on the Catholic crucifix. [1]

After the Egyptian/Greek/Roman pagans converted to Christianity, “these different signs of the cross were united in one large sign such as we now make. In the Western Church the hand was carried from the left to the right shoulder; in the Eastern Church, on the contrary, it was brought from the right shoulder to the left, the sign being made with three fingers. This apparently slight difference was one of the (remote) causes of the fatal Eastern Schism. [2]

The early Christians of Egypt were accused of sun-worship:


**********

The legendary stories of ‘man-god’ saviors dying for the sins of their people (and rising three days later) were very common. Christianity is based on the sun-god myth. In fact the whole religion was fabricated after the departure of Jesus. None of these saviors are historical, but only personifications of the sun.

Here is an excerpt from Mather Walker’s essays:

Orpheus (from whom the Orphics received their name) and Dionysus went to Hades and returned. The Christians created the tradition that during the three days while Jesus was dead before his resurrection He went to hell and preached to the souls in prison.

Significantly, Plato, who follows the Orphic and mystery teachings throughout his dialogues, has the following to say, in the Republic II (362e), referring to the just man:

"What they will say is this, that such being his
disposition the just man will have to endure the lash,
the rack, chains, the branding iron in his eyes, and
finally, after every extremity of suffering, he will
be crucified."

The Orphics had a number of books which contained the details of their theology.These books have been lost, but I have no doubt this little jewel from Plato came straight from one of these. Dionysus was known by the name "Pentheus", i.e. "man of suffering." [1]

The Babylonian god Tammuz also died and resurrected.

Tammuz was a god of Assyria, Babylonia and Sumeria where he was known as Dumuzi. He is commemorated in the name of the month of June, Du’uzu, the fourth month of a year which begins at the spring equinox. The fullest history extant of this saviour is probably that of Ctesias (400 BC), author of Persika. The poet has perpetuated his memory in rhyme.

Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.

Tammuz was crucified as an atonement offering: “Trust ye in God, for out of his loins salvation has come unto us.” Julius Firmicus speaks of this God rising from the dead for the salvation of the world. This saviour which long preceded the advent of Christ, filled the same role in sacred history. (Warning: atheist website [2]

Christianity is based on the sun-god myth.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm

[tannah]

Great article so far:



The Origin of Sin and the Queen of Heaven

Introduction

It is difficult for people living in the shadow of the patriarchal monotheistic heritage to understand how the paternal creator god we associate with the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions has evolved naturally from more ancient traditions in polytheism. The tendency is to perceive polytheistic deities as debased objects of idol worship, either empty of real content because they are false man-made gods, as mere projections of human personality, or at best representing only one aspect of primitive nature such as fertility, or astral bodies such as the moon or sun. In fact the converse is the case. Yahweh is a tribal patron form of a more ancient cosmic deity, who only regains a semblance of his original cosmic nature in the Christian form many centuries later, although now without his divine consort, and their sacred garden of immortality.

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, there is a particular tendency to see the aniconic aspect of Yahweh as intrinsically superior to the idolised deities of polytheism, and to infer that this "true" God of his people has appeared paradoxically as a revealed "God of History", first to Abraham in the starlight and later to Moses out of a cloudy pillar. Despite clearly manifesting in Yahweh as a tribal patron god, rather than a cosmic god of all and only later being vested by pre-exilic Jewish culture with strict monotheistic attributes, this deity finally appears as a cosmic deity in the Christian and Islamic form with the full dimensions of an aniconic, monotheistic, cosmic, paternal creator deity - the "one true God of all", who has revealed his nature in ever deeper stages to his followers.

This description is patently incorrect. It is calculated to reinforce the unquestioned acceptance of the patriarchal creator deity, despite his mottled history, and mask the evolutionary nature of all deities as projections of conscious awareness and human culture. Long before Yahweh made his dubious entry onto the stage of history as a jealous patron deity, ancient astral deities had already encompassed the major advances later seen in the Christian idea of the supreme creator god, who is both the god of reality and the god of the mind.

In rediscovering the underlying nature of this "God behind God" and his complementary relationship with the Goddess, with whom he is inextricably fused in deep union, just as Shiva and Shakti, we will not only discover our true origins of deity in the joyful marriage of complements - male and female mind and body, but also our much more ancient roots in the links between the conscious mind and the immortal unfolding of fertility which were already discovered 20,000 years ago with the first developments of human culture. In a real sense these ancient traditions, far from being more primitive, capture in archetypal form realities towards which our modern scientific society is only now converging after a long period of imbalance and confusion.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/origsin.htm

[seanx]

Tannah wrote:
Oh blah! Get yourself another book if you don't like what the elites did with the bible.

You keep using the "Christan" word about yourself. You're not. You're a bible freak, a book designed to keep people from waking up. A Christian has, at some point, overcome the bible hurdle. A Christian doesn't bullshit himself and close his ears. He keeps them open and tries to be honest.

Why do you think gnostic books disappeared, and a bible was constructed bearing all the usual symbolism of the ruling elite? Why didn't they want some of the many other books by the real disciples, and settled for a Paul collection instead?

You're supporting corruption. This Babylon religion you throw at others seeps out of your own asses.

Bible freaks who speak of the NWO are really doing the NWO bidding. The elites know it's their book, and they know full well that the committed bible freak will be promoting the sleepy state in others. Call it NWO insurance policy and a piss take at the same time; a 6000 year old universe and a God coming back to take the power away from the ruling elite. You should be so lucky bible freaks. You don't even allow yourselves or others the way to your Christ Self. The elites absolutely love you. When they hear of some fundie shooting biblical verses and warning about hell, they laugh their butts off, because that's exactly where they're keeping you, in the dark. They know full well that as long as they keep you from your Higher Christ Self they remain in power, and this tale they put in its place about some outside saviour coming to take their power away is BS.

And what about the Essenes and Cayce?

Great and powerful stuff!

It's amazing how many people have ben conned into this Elite's
created religion.

Keep up this great posts.

As Icke says we all need to wake up to this insidious perversion
of the nature of God.

[drakul]

Tannah - Tammuz was crucified as an atonement offering:


Can you please show me a Babylonian depiction of Tammuz crucified? :confused:

[armoured_amazon]

Tannah wrote:


Great and powerful stuff!

It's amazing how many people have ben conned into this Elite's
created religion.

Keep up this great posts.

As Icke says we all need to wake up to this insidious perversion
of the nature of God.

Icke doesn't perform miracles; my God does. You'll see, but will it be too late?

[tannah]

Please show me a Babylonian depiction of Tammuz crucified. :confused:

Well he was associated with the cross, went to underworld and popped back up three days later like the early buds of spring. You must be spotting the similarities here. Take a myth, bend it shape it twist it to fit the agenda. Whilst at the bottom of the pyramid the good souls give their energy to this beast, one of its mouth pieces being the bible. And I love Christ, so you can work it out.

You don't think the bible frames Christ? I didn't twenty years ago, but I've seen enough to be pretty sure that bible freakism is not the destiny of mankind. God/Good can do better, and does

How about you show me a picture of Jesus dying on the cross?

[drakul]

Well he was associated with the cross, went to underworld and popped back up three days later like the early buds of spring. You must be spotting the similarities here. Take a myth, bend it shape it twist it to fit the agenda. Whilst at the bottom of the pyramid the good souls give their energy to this beast, one of its mouth pieces being the bible. And I love Christ, so you can work it out.

You don't think the bible frames Christ? I didn't twenty years ago, but I've seen enough to be pretty sure that bible freakism is not the destiny of mankind. God/Good can do better, and does

How about you show me a picture of Jesus dying on the cross?

I asked you for a depiction of a crucified Tammuz. That's all, simple as that. But you can't do that - and you know you can't and you will never be able to do that because it does not exist. So why are you spreading LIES???

[tannah]

I asked you for a depiction of a crucified Tammuz. That's all, simple as that. But you can't do that - and you know you can't and you will never be able to do that because it does not exist. So why are you spreading LIES???

What do you mean I'm spreading lies you ol git? I don't particularly give a pidgeons hard on about a crucified Tummuz. He was a saviour, went to hell three days and was resurrected. Are you saying this is untrue? The stories of Ishtar/Inanna three days in the underworld are not true? They'd imply a lot.

And apart from that are you seeing the similarities? Does the saviour/three day in hell myth remind you off the one in the bible? You no see a pattern eh? How about the Sumerian stories regarding the creation of man? I'm sure they've been posted here. I'll find some of my own.

In the meantime, if you go back to this link, who is that person on a cross (half way down page??). They reckon it's Orpheus:

Here is an excerpt from Mather Walker’s essays:

Orpheus (from whom the Orphics received their name) and Dionysus went to Hades and returned. The Christians created the tradition that during the three days while Jesus was dead before his resurrection He went to hell and preached to the souls in prison.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm

[tannah]

Who created Man? So many tales

Assyrian Babylonian version

http://www.livius.org/as-at/atrahasis/atrahasis.html#Proposals_by_Ea_Belet-ili_and_Enki


The Epic of Atrahasis is the fullest Mesopotamian account of the Great Flood, but it offers more.

The conditions immediately after the Creation, when the Lower Gods have to work very hard, and complain
Revolt of the Lower Gods
Negotiations
Proposal to create Man, to relieve the Lower Gods from their labor
Creation of Man
Man's noisy behavior; new complaints (this section is now lost)
The supreme god Enlil's decision to extinguish mankind by a Great Flood
Enki's betrayal of the plan to Atrahasis
Construction of the Ark
Boarding of the Ark
Departure
The Great Flood
The gods are hungry (there are no farmers left to bring sacrifices), decide to spare Atrahasis (lost)
Regulations to cut down the noise: childbirth, infant mortality, and celibacy
The text is known from several versions: two were written by Assyrian scribes (one in the Assyrian, one in the Babylonian dialect), a third one (on three tablets) was written during the reign of king Ammi-saduqa of Babylonia (1647-1626 BCE). Parts are quoted in Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgameš; other influences are in the Babylonian History by Berossus (quote).

The translation offered here is adapted from the one by B.R. Foster.

Complaints of the Lower Gods
[1] When the gods were man
they did forced labor, they bore drudgery.
Great indeed was the drudgery of the gods,
the forced labor was heavy, the misery too much:
[5] the seven great Anunna-gods were burdening
the [lesser] Igigi-gods with forced labor.

[Lacuna]

[21] The gods were digging watercourses,
canals they opened, the life of the land.
The Igigi-gods were digging watercourses
canals they opened, the life of the land.
[25] The Igigi-gods dug the Tigris river
and the Euphrates thereafter.
Springs they opened from the depths,
wells ... they established.
...
They heaped up all the mountains.

[Several lines missing]

... years of drudgery.
[35] ... the vast marsh.
They counted years of drudgery,
... and forty years, too much!
... forced labor they bore night and day.
They were complaining, denouncing,
[40] muttering down in the ditch:
"Let us face up to our foreman the prefect,
he must take off our heavy burden upon us!
Enlil, counsellor of the gods, the warrior,
come, let us remove him from his dwelling;
[45] Enlil, counsellor of the gods, the warrior,
come, let us remove him from his dwelling!"

[Several lines missing]

[61] "Now them, call for battle,
battle let us join, warfare!"
The gods heard his words:
they set fire to their tools,
[65] they put fire to their spaces,
and flame to their workbaskets.
Off they went, one and all,
to the gate of the warrior Enlil's abode.
...

Insurrection of the Lower Gods
[70] It was night, half-way through the watch,
the house was surrounded, but the god did not know.
It was night, half-way through the watch,
Ekur was surrounded, but Enlil did not know!

[Several lines missing; the great gods send a messenger]
The Great Gods Send a Messenger
[132] Nusku opened his gate,
took his weapons and went ... Enlil.
In the assembly of all the gods,
[135] he knelt, stood up, expounded the command,
"Anu, your father,
your counsellor, the warrior Enlil,
your prefect, Ninurta,
and your bailiff Ennugi have sent me to say:
[140] 'Who is the instigator of this battle?
Who is the instigator of these hostilities?
Who declared war,
that battle has run up to the gate of Enlil?
In ...
[145] he transgressed the command of Enlil.'"

Reply by the Lower Gods
"Everyone of us gods has declared war;
...
We have set ... un the excvation,
excessive drudgery has killed us,
[150] our forced labor was heavy, the misery too much!
Now, everyone of us gods
has resolved on a reckoning with Enlil."

[The great gods decide to create man, to relieve the lower gods from their misery.]

Proposals by Ea, Belet-ili, and Enki
[a1] Ea made ready to speak,
and said to the gods, his brothers:
"What calumny do we lay to their charge?
Their forced labor was heavy, their misery too much!
[a5] Every day ...
the outcry was loud, we could hear the clamor.
There is ...
Belet-ili, the midwife, is present.[1]
Let her create, then, a human, a man,
[a10] Let him bear the yoke!
Let him bear the yoke!
Let man assume the drudgery of the god."
Belet-ili, the midwife, is present.
[190] Let the midwife create a human being!
Let man assume the drudgery of the god."
They summoned and asked the goddess
the midwife of the gods, wise Mami:[1]
"Will you be the birth goddess, creatress of mankind?
[195] Create a human being, that he bear the yoke,
let him bear the yoke, the task of Enlil,
let man assume the drudgery of the god."
Nintu made ready to speak,[1]
and said to the great gods:
[200] "It is not for me to do it,
the task is Enki's.
He it is that cleanses all,
let him provide me the clay so I can do the making."
Enki made ready to speak,
[205] and said to the great gods:
"On the first, seventh, and fifteenth days of the month,
let me establish a purification, a bath.
Let one god be slaughtered,
then let the gods be cleansed by immerson.
[210] Let Nintu mix clay with his flesh and blood.
Let that same god and man be thoroughly mixed in the clay.
Let us hear the drum for the rest of the time.
[215] From the flesh of the god let a spirit remain,
let it make the living know its sign,
lest he be allowed to be forgotten, let the spirit remain."
The great Anunna-gods, who administer destinies,
[220] answered "yes!" in the assembly.


The Creation of Man
On the first, seventh, and fifteenth days of the month,
he established a purification, a bath.
They slaughtered Aw-ilu, who had the inspiration, in their assembly.
[225] Nintu mixed clay with his flesh and blood.
That same god and man were thoroughly mixed in the clay.
For the rest of the time they would hear the drum.
From the flesh of the god the spirit remained.
It would make the living know its sign.
[230] Lest he be allowed to be forgotten, the spirit remained.
After she had mixed the clay,
she summoned the Anunna, the great gods.
The Igigi, the great gods, spat upon the clay.
[235] Mami made rady to speak,
and said to the great gods:
"You ordered me the task and I have completed it!
You have slaughtered the god, along with his inspiration.
[240] I have done away with your heavy forced labor,
I have imposed your drudgery on man.
You have bestowed clamor upon mankind.
I have released the yoke, I have made restoration."
They heard this speech of hers,
[245] they ran, free of care, and kissed her feet, saying:
"Formerly we used to call you Mami,
now let your name be Belet-kala-ili (Mistress of all the gods)!"

[kasalt]

The Orpheus amulet:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/image004.jpg

It appears that this image is probably a fake:

http://www.bede.org.uk/orpheus.htm

[tannah]

Similarities, 1001 million blues songs using the 12-bar format.




Enuma Elish: "When on High . . ."
The Mesopotamian/Babylonian Creation Myth

Dennis Bratcher

The Enuma Elish is a Babylonian or Mesopotamian myth of creation recounting the struggle between cosmic order and chaos. It is basically a myth of the cycle of seasons. It is named after its opening words and was recited on the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival. The basic story exists in various forms in the area. This version is written in Akkadian, an old Babylonian dialect, and stars Marduk, the patron deity of the city of Babylon. A similar earlier version in ancient Sumerian has Anu, Enil and Ninurta as the heroes, suggesting that this version was adapted to justify the religious practices in the cult of Marduk in Babylon.

This version was written sometime in the 12th century BC in cuneiform on seven clay tablets. They were found in the middle 19th century in the ruins of the palace of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh. George Smith first published these texts in 1876 as The Chaldean Genesis. Because of many parallels with the Genesis account, some historians concluded that the Genesis account was simply a rewriting of the Babylonian story. As a reaction, many who wanted to maintain the uniqueness of the Bible argued either that there were no real parallels between the accounts or that the Genesis narratives were written first and the Babylonian myth borrowed from the biblical account.

However, there are simply too many similarities between the accounts to deny any relationship between the accounts. There are significant differences as well that should not be ignored. Yet there is little doubt that the Sumerian versions of the story predate the biblical account by several hundred years. Rather than opting for either extreme of complete dependence or no contact whatever, it is best to see the Genesis narratives as freely using the metaphors and symbolism drawn from a common cultural pool to assert their own theology about God (see Speaking the Language of Canaan).


http://www.crivoice.org/enumaelish.html

[tannah]

The Orpheus amulet:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/image004.jpg

It appears that this image is probably a fake:

http://www.bede.org.uk/orpheus.htm

I'll go along with Kern on that and say it almost certainly was a fake or a replica.
It's the medieval stlye of the pose on the cross, and also the cross itself wasn't depicted according to the time of Orpheus. Maybe Kern says "almost certainly" because the myth may be true but the depiction had been changed to suit the medieval period? Richie Blackmore did it with Greensleaves.

Thanks for that.

[seanx]

armoured_amazon wrote:
Icke doesn't perform miracles; my God does. You'll see, but will it be too late?

SO now you 'own' God!! He is MY God!

God is now a thing that you and only certain people like you - who just
happen to believe in some 'religion' can now 'own'??

Then you talk about Icke and God as if they were two
separate 'personailites'.

Or if Icke is on a par to God....and should be able to perform
miracles?

What nonsense.


God is omnipresent - so he is everybody and in everybody -
whether you like it or not.

So i'M afriad you don't 'own' God.

And he is not exclusive to just 'christains' -

[drakul]

The Orpheus amulet:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/image004.jpg

It appears that this image is probably a fake:

http://www.bede.org.uk/orpheus.htm

Yes that amulet is a fake - yet this is the only `evidence' that any other god was ever crucified besides Jesus. The Anti-Christs constantly use this fake amulet to prove their claims that Jesus never existed. Why? Because in their own leap of faith, Anti-Christs like Tannah are willing to go from the age old concept of Dying and Ressurecting Gods, (thats what gods are for, to show that the human soul is eternal), to claiming that all these other ancient gods were `CRUCIFIED'. And that is a lie and in their hearts they know it. Because there is not a single shred of ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE to prove that Tammuz was crucified. Or that Horus was crucified, or that the Greek god Attis was crucified. Or that Mithra was crucified, as all these lying freemasons claim. So where do they get their sources from? They just quote each other.

They just make this stuff up as they go along. Their research is so sloppy that in the original movie ZEITGEIST - this amulet is shown and is claimed to be a depiction of the Greek god Dionysus. Even though the amulet itself clearly says ORPHEE!!! :D

[tannah]

[QUOTE]Yes that amulet is a fake - yet this is the only `evidence' that any other god was ever crucified besides Jesus. The Anti-Christs constantly use this fake amulet to prove their claims that Jesus never existed. Why? Because in their own leap of faith, Anti-Christs like Tannah are willing to go from the age old concept of Dying and Ressurecting Gods, (thats what gods are for, to show that the human soul is eternal), to claiming that all these other ancient gods were `CRUCIFIED'.


That's crap. I love the weeding process in life, and that's what I'll do with this thread, weed out the truth from fabrication. A few more posts, ponder the similarities and see who is honest or anti-christ/truth around here. I've set this thread out to weed out the liars here.

You picked a little slither of text someone wrote , pinned it on me and now are onto the stigmatizing game with it. Well people that do the slither are just little snakes. Not a great start Drakul. It's like you already have these angst.

What I'm waiting for is for some of you in denial to acknowledge the symbolism.

Was Tummuz associated with the cross, did he go to the underworld three days and then resurrected? Was he regarded as a saviuor type? YES or NO? If NO, and you can show this, you will see me agree with the truth. If YES, then we need to acknowledge the pattern.

What's special about crucifixtion btw? Isn't being saviour going to hell and back as a rising sun enough for the ritual?

The age old concept of Dying and Ressurecting Gods, as if this time the one about Jesus is real?

[drakul]

That's crap. I love the weeding process in life, and that's what I'll do with this thread, weed out the truth from fabrication. A few more posts, ponder the similarities and see who is honest or anti-christ/truth around here. I've set this thread out to weed out the liars here.

Go ahead, I've been through this many many times before. I know how to pick and choose my sacred ground, but I don't think you do.

You picked a little slither of text someone wrote , pinned it on me and now are onto the stigmatizing game with it. Well people that do the slither are just little snakes. Not a great start Drakul. It's like you already have these angst.

Interesting you use the word `SLITHER' as in Reptilian (Lie).

You posted that Tammuz was crucified. I did not `pin' anything on you. I simply asked you to show me archeological evidence that Tammuz was crucified. But of course you cannot. Because it's a lie. And you know it's a lie. Somehow you think the simpletons won't question anything from your sources. So in your mind a lie becomes a `slither'. :D

What I'm waiting for is for some of you in denial to acknowledge the symbolism.

What symbolism - so far you haven't shown us any archeological symbolism as proof of your claim.

Was Tummuz associated with the cross, did he go to the underworld three days and then resurrected? Was he regarded as a saviuor type? YES or NO? If NO, and you can show this, you will see me agree with the truth. If YES, then we need to acknowledge the pattern.

OK show us an archeological depiction of Tammuz holding a cross or suspended from a cross.

What's special about crucifixtion btw? Isn't being saviour going to hell and back as a rising sun enough for the ritual?

Uhuh - this is called `cover your ass'. Now the crucifixion doesn't matter anymore. But it was important enough for you to claim that Tammuz was crucified.

The age old concept of Dying and Ressurecting Gods, as if this time the one about Jesus is real?

Man has had the concept of GOD(S) to explain Life and Death and the Immortal Soul from time immemorial. It is up to the individual to study Jesus' teachings and his life to decide for themselves. For myself - whether Jesus ressurected or not is immaterial compared to his teachings. There would be no Christianity without Jesus' teachings. This is Jesus' true immortality and this is why the old gods fell away.

[tannah]

[QUOTE]Go ahead, I've been through this many many times before. I know how to pick and choose my sacred ground, but I don't think you do.

nice blah to begin with.

Interesting you use the word `SLITHER' as in Reptilian (Lie).


interest is a matter of opinion.





You posted that Tammuz was crucified. I did not `pin' anything on you.

The intenttion was to post about the cross. You replied with your ssssslither.


I simply asked you to show me archeological evidence that Tammuz was crucified. But of course you cannot. Because it's a lie. And you know it's a lie.

That's a lie because i don't know that' a lie. And quite honestly crucifixions or not, there's enough of the other angles to go on. Is crucifixion the purpose of the worship of the cross?


Somehow you think the simpletons won't question anything from your sources. So in your mind a lie becomes a `slither'. :D

You're guessing again you ol git. Get off your perch. I'm questioning it as I find it and share it, and reading the responses. I don't use a religious belief as my basis, and then expect everything to conform to it. So question away.



What symbolism - so far you haven't shown us any archeological symbolism as proof of your claim.

What claim am I making? I think plenty of symbolism is scratching right under your nose. How about the dying/rising god symbol? Baptism unique to bible?




OK show us an archeological depiction of Tammuz holding a cross or suspended from a cross.

You're being deceitful again. That doesn't answer my question:

Was Tummuz associated with the cross, did he go to the underworld three days and then resurrected? Was he regarded as a saviuor type? YES or NO? If NO, and you can show this, you will see me agree with the truth. If YES, then we need to acknowledge the pattern.

Just YES or NO to begin with.



Uhuh - this is called `cover your ass'. Now the crucifixion doesn't matter anymore. But it was important enough for you to claim that Tammuz was crucified.

I didn't claim that. I posted an article about the cross and the author goes as far as saying Tammuz was crucified on it. I'm still asking my own questions:


Was Tummuz associated with the cross, did he go to the underworld three days and then resurrected? Was he regarded as a saviuor type?



Man has had the concept of GOD(S) to explain Life and Death and the Immortal Soul from time immemorial. It is up to the individual to study Jesus' teachings and his life to decide for themselves. For myself - whether Jesus ressurected or not is immaterial compared to his teachings.

Well SNAP, I feel that way about Christ. So, to weed out the fabricatioon is a noble task, so stop pissing on it. No one is trying to defllect what the true nature of God is. I'm certainly finding out some of what it isn't.




There would be no Christianity without Jesus' teachings. This is Jesus' true immortality and this is why the old gods fell away.

But where are all Jesus's teachings?

[drakul]

Just YES or NO to begin with.

You're kidding me right? Why should I answer yes or no :confused: I am not informed enough.

You need to present some visual evidence to support your claim so I can make a decision. Show me an Babylonian archeological motif depicting Tammuz holding a cross or hanging from one. I have looked and I haven't found anything. Obviously you know better, because you say Tammuz was associated with the cross long before Jesus, so SHOW ME. Remember a picture is worth a thousand words.

I didn't claim that. I posted an article about the cross and the author goes as far as saying Tammuz was crucified on it. I'm still asking my own questions:

Uhuh. Ok so now you know your source LIES but obviously little `slithers' like that are irrelevant for you as long as you think you can find someone to swallow it.

[marpat]

This is what this forum was probably created for, to expose corruption.
Some of you assholes think I'm the one being rude. That's because you just don't want to understand how you are supporters of real vulgarity. You supporters of a God of genocide and hell-sender give energy to dark forces, and all your turning up of noses and unreasoned denials count for very little.

You piss me off bible freaks. Your blindness is astounding. Watch this and learn about where you get your vile beliefs from.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8469389811298138021#

Yet Icke believes jesus did exist. I recently listened to a radio show where Icke states he was created from the christ consciousness in the same way jesus was.

[tannah]

Show me an Babylonian archeological motif depicting Tammuz holding a cross or hanging from one. I have looked and I haven't found anything. Obviously you know better, because you say Tammuz was associated with the cross long before Jesus, so SHOW ME. Remember a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm asking for a yes or no about it. Obviously if these are lies we will eventually see it.


Uhuh. Ok so now you know your source LIES but obviously little `slithers' like that are irrelevant for you as long as you think you can find someone to swallow it.

Not at all mate. You're after a nice clouding over type argument. I have every intention of finding out what is true here and what isn't.

This reference comes from a souce that regards Tammuz as a false messiah.:



Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol ... the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah ... the mystic Tau of the Cladeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians - the true original form of the letter T the initial of the name of Tammuz ... the Babylonian cross was the recognised emblem of Tammuz."

http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/pagan/origin_of_cross.htm

It's safe to say the cross goes back as far a Tammuz.? How about his status as a saviour who was resurrected?

[marpat]

The cross can be seen as one of the symbols associated with Mu.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/img/22700.jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/img/22700.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm11.htm&usg=__vm0Qkwt0wFo-4gZwQ5N74nzUjxE=&h=400&w=324&sz=22&hl=en&start=27&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=XNgHud4b5IBg-M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcross%2Bsymbol%2Bof%2Bmu%26ndsp%3D21% 26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4RNWZ_en-GBGB298GB342%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1

[tannah]

Yet Icke believes jesus did exist. I recently listened to a radio show where Icke states he was created from the christ consciousness in the same way jesus was.

Yeah I agree. Jesus exists as part of Christ consciousness whether he physically existed or not. What I don't buy is the same kinda symbolism placed on him. Somehow placing this symbolism on Tammuz makes him false, but for Jesus it is true.

The word Sin has its origin in some Moon Goddess I think. Looking though the bible it tends to make sense when we realize where a lot of the myths come from. It just seems to me that many biblle worshipppers tend to condemn what thy actually worship themselves.

As for David Icke, I see him as a modern day Jesus type, which is why I have to laugh when bible freaks condemn him. Jesus exposed the corruption in his time, and David does the same today. And I personally think Jesus would admire the Icke type.

[marpat]

Yeah I agree. Jesus exists as part of Christ consciousness whether he physically existed or not. What I don't buy is the same kinda symbolism placed on him. Somehow placing this symbolism on Tammuz makes him false, but for Jesus it is true.

The word Sin has its origin in some Moon Goddess I think. Looking though the bible it tends to make sense when we realize where a lot of the myths come from. It just seems to me that many biblle worshipppers tend to condemn what thy actually worship themselves.

As for David Icke, I see him as a modern day Jesus type, which is why I have to laugh when bible freaks condemn him. Jesus exposed the corruption in his time, and David does the same today. And I personally think Jesus would admire the Icke type.

The Babylonian moon deity was called Sin. Another interesting moon god is an ancient Egyptian one called Yah, clearly the root of the Hebrew god.

[tannah]

A very well constructed paper regarding the Sabbath, the Moon and REST.



This article argues that Israel's New Moons as well as Passover on the eve of the Full Moon may have been derived originally from ancient Mesopotamian Lunar Festivals.

Furthermore, the controversy which exists among some scholars seeking a relationship between the weekly Hebrew Shabbat (English Sabbath) and Mesopotamian Full Moon Shapattu on the 15th day of the lunar month is explored.

I understand that the weekly Shabbat has NOTHING to do _directly_ with the Shapattu, it is derived from another motif, found in the Epic of Gilgamesh and Atarhasis myths. For me, the weekly Shabbat is an "inversion" of the 7th day when ALL the gods rested after destroying mankind with Utnapishtim's Flood. If this subject, the 'pre-biblical origins" of the _weekly_ Sabbath/Shabbat interests you please click here for my "in-depth" article exploring this fascinating subject.


Professor Clay, an Assyriologist, in 1923 argued that scholars were _wrong_ in assuming the Hebrew Shabbat or Sabbath was related to and derived from the Mesopotamian shapattu (Emphasis mine in CAPITALS):

"For years it was held that the Hebrew Sabbath was borrowed from Babylonia; that it had its roots in the Babylonian shapattu or shabattu, to which we have been told we owe the blessings of that day; for "the Sabbath-rest, was essentially of Babylonian origin." It is even held that "the word Sabbath is Babylonian indeed."

This view has been accepted by many scholars...Let us here inquire upon what basis does the assertion rest that the Hebrew Sabbath is of Babylonian origin.

In the first place there was found in a Babylonian dictionary, or explanatory list of rare words, this formula: um nukh libbi= sha-pat-tum (or sha-bat-tum). This was translated "shabattu was the day of rest of the heart," literally"a day of rest." The word shabatu was also found in an explanatory list of rare words, but the meaning given for it, namely, gamaru, "to be full, complete" did not seem at the time to be suitable for the assertions that had been made.

The word shabattu, for which there is no etymology in Semitic Babylonian, was said to have been derived by the native lexicographers from the Sumerian sa "heart," and bat "to cease" or "rest"; it was literally translated "heart rest."

(p. 117. "The Hebrew Sabbath." Albert T. Clay. The Origin of Biblical Traditions: Hebrew Legends in Babylonia and Israel. New Haven. Yale University Press. 1923)

"Somewhat later it was shown that the expression nukh libbi, which occurs frequently in the lamentation hymns, did not mean "rest of the heart," but referred to the PACIFICATION of the gods; and the expression was then translated "day of the APPEASEMENT of the heart."

In 1904, Doctor Pinches discovered in a tablet giving the designation of the days of the month, that the 15th day was called shapatti when it became clear that the word shabatu, explained by gamaru, meaning "to be complete, full," apparently referred to the full moon in the middle of the month.

This new light upon the subject required a readjustment of the proof that has been advanced for the Babylonian origin of the Sabbath. However, this was promptly accomplished, and the same conclusion reached, even "that the word Sabbath is Babylonian indeed."

In this contention I cannot acqiesce. THERE IS NO ROOT IN BABYLONIAN, as already intimated, equivalent to the common Hebrew shabat "to cut off, desist, put an end to." With the knowledge of its extended usage throughout the Old Testament, and knowing how thoroughly the institutions and the life of Israel were bound up with this day, TO ME IT HAS BEEN INCONCEIVABLE how Assyriologists could make themselves believe, on the basis of the data given above, that this institution and this word were borrowed from Babylonia." (pp. 118-119. Clay)

"There have already been published hundreds of hymns from Babylonia, and hundreds of ritual texts. The mass of this kind of literature is ten times greater than that found in the Old Testament. We have also a large body of laws from the early and late periods. In these, as well as in the mass of other texts, besides what is referred to above, there is not a semblance of an idea corresponding to the Hebrew Sabbath, nor any reference to the word (i.e., shabbat, not shapattu or shabattu)."

"Whether in view of the fact that the "new moon" and the Sabbath in the Old Testament, stand in juxtaposition in so many passages the Sabbath was originally the day of the "full moon," i.e., the fifteenth day of the month, need not concern us here." (p. 122. Clay)

While many people are aware that ancient Israel observed a Sabbath or day of rest every 7th day, NOT so well known is that there was another rest day observed on a monthly basis IN ADDITION TO the 7th day. The Bible speaks of this day of rest as THE OBSERVANCE OF NEW MOONS. Israel also observed annually the Exodus from Egypt, which for some scholars was about the time of the Full Moon.

Using archaeological findings which have preserved the religious beliefs of the ancient Mesopotamians, Abraham being understood to have been from Ur in LOwer Mesopotamia and later of Haran (Harran/Charrae) in Northern Mesopotamia, both places being cult centers of Moon worship of the Moon-god Nanna(r), or Suen (Sin), this article attempts to link New Moon and the Passover Full Moon days of rest to Lunar worship.

I understand that Israel's New Moon day of rest is derived from the REAPPEARANCE of the Moon-god AFTER its "resting" in the underworld and being invisible to the naked eye. So, the NEW MOON day of rest originally celebrated the Lunar god's REAPPEARANCE _AFTER_ its resting!

The New Moon was a period of time when the Moon _first became visible_ as a crescent, said "invisibility" occuring because of its nearness to the Sun.

Vanderkam on the Lunar Calendar:

"The month was defined as the interval between successive first appearances of the moon in its cyclical phases. The beginning of the lunar cycle is defined when, following the period of invisibility due to nearness to the sun, the lunar crescent appears again briefly on the western horizon just after sunset...The lunar month was taken uniformly thoughout the Ancient Near East and Mediterranean (by Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Greeks) to begin with the sighting of the first visible lunar crescent."

(p. 810. Vol. 1. James C. Vanderkam."Calendars, Ancient Near East." David Noel Freedman. Editor. The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York. Doubleday. 1992)

"The Babylonian year began in the Spring, with the month Nisannu (= March/April in the Julian calendar), and the first of the year fell approximately around the vernal equinox, but actually varied widely. During the Neo-Babylonian period (between years 626-536 BC) the first of Nisannu could fall between the 11th of March and 26th of April, according to the tables of Parker and Dubberstein (1942). Even after the institution of the 19 year cycle, the New Year could still vary within a 27-day range, but averaged about 14 days following the vernal equinox (Kugler 1924:333-34; RLA 5: 298-99)."

(p. 811. Vol. 1. James C. Vanderkam."Calendars, Ancient Near East." David Noel Freedman. Editor. The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York. Doubleday. 1992)

I understand that Secular Humanist scholars are correct in their proposals that ancient Israel assimilated and adapted earlier religious beliefs of the nations about her, transforming these beliefs into her own unique cosmology and religion.

Hallo makes the following observation on the weekly 7th day Sabbath:

"The Sabbath is "a memorial to the week of creation" and "a reminder of the Exodus from Egypt." It is "a sign forever that the Lord made the heavens and the earth in six days, and rested and refreshed on the seventh."

(p. 320, William W. Hallo, "New Moons and Sabbaths," in Frederick E. Greenspahn, Editor. Essential Papers on Israel and the Ancient Near East. New York. New York University Press. 1991. ISBN 0-8147-3038-8 Hdbk. [Original article in Hebrew Union College Annual 43 (1977) 1-13] )

Scholars have noted that Akkadian (Babylonian) Shapattu looks somewhat similar in form to the Hebrew Shabbat (English: Sabbath), and have offered theories to establish a relationship between the two.

According to Akkadian texts Shapattu was the 15th day of the ancient calendarical month, and the day of the Full Moon, this has presented a dilemma to those who would argue that a relationship exists with the Shabbat, observed every 7th day throughout the year. Some have concluded that there is no relationship between the two.

Lambert sees a relation:

"The Sabbath has, of course, been the subject of much study, both in the institution and the name. My own position, briefly, is that the Hebrew term shabbat, meaning the completion of the week, and the Babylonian term shapattu, meaning the completion of the moon's waxing, that is the fifteenth day of a lunar month, are the same word..."

(pp. 106-107, W.G. Lambert, "A New Look at the Babylonian Background of Genesis [1965], in Richard S. Hess and David T. Tsumura, Editors. I Studied Inscriptions From Before the Flood. Winona Lake, Indiana. Eisenbrauns. 1994)

Contra Lambert, Hallo sees _no connection_ between a Lunar Shapattu and the Shabbat:

"Finally, the importance of the Sabbath must be seen in the context of the continuing de-emphasis of the lunar festivals. Moon worship flourished wherever Mesopotamian culture spread, and even after its demise, it survived at places like Harran. But in Israel it failed to gain a foothold; the full-moon was not worshipped, the quarters were not specially observed, and even the new moon was ultimately relegated to the status of a half-holiday. We may sum up the contrast as follows: the ancient Mesopotamian year was based on the month, and the worship of the moon went hand in hand with it. The Israelite year was based on the week, and remained independent of the month even when the luni-solar claendar was adopted from Babylonia...Here, then, two of the great contrasts between biblical Israel and its Near Eastern matrix meet: Sabbatical Cycles vs. Lunar Calendars..."

(p. 326, William W. Hallo, "New Moons and Sabbaths," in Frederick E. Greenspahn, Editor. Essential Papers on Israel and the Ancient Near East. New York. New York University Press. 1991. ISBN 0-8147-3038-8 Hdbk. [Original article in Hebrew Union College Annual 43 (1977) pp. 1-13] )

While Hallo is correct that the Moon "itself" was not to be worshipped, nevertheless, I understand that "originally" it was, and that the Hebrews adapted and transformed its Mesopotamian worship. I note that one of the greatest events for Israel was her deliverance from an Egyptian bondage by Yahweh-Elohim, and that that day was to be observed as a Holy Day "forever". The Passover Meal was consumed on the 14th of Nisan, the evening preceeding the Full Moon on the 15th. The following Psalm seems to make mention of this event:

Psalm 81:1-5, 10 RSV

"Sing aloud to God our strength; shout for joy to the God of Jacob ! Raise a song, sound the timbral, the sweet lyre with the harp. Blow the trumpet AT THE NEW MOON, AT THE FULL MOON, on our feast day. For it is a statute for Israel, an ordinance of the God of Jacob. He made it a decree in Joseph, when he went out over the land of Egypt...I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt."

Hallo noted that the Mesopotamians observed the following days in regards to the worship of the moon:

"It might be thought that we have pursued the topic into a cul-de-sac. But as is often the case when tracking down a millennial institution, we must allow for the survival of an old institution under a new name. In the first place, the terms for the individual lunar phases were translated into Akkadian and appear together in the Old Babylonian Atrahasis epic as arhu sebutu u shapattu "first, seventh, and fifteenth day of the month." In the second place, the concept of lunar festivals in general did not simply die out when the original Sumerian term changed its name." (pp. 318-19. Hallo)

Hallo:

"My thesis in brief is this: the cultic calendar of ancient Mesopotamia, like its civil calendar, was largely tied to the phases of the moon, and not at all to the week (or: a week); In Israel, the cultic calendar was only minimally connected to lunar phases, whereas the sabbatical cycle was all-important." (p. 315. Hallo)

Hallo noted the festivals which were celebrated since Sumerian times, the New Moon and the Full Moon (pp.316-17, Hallo). The festivals were celebrated with numerous consumables- cakes, oil, beer, cattle were sacrificed, there were ritual ablutions and special garments including sandals which were issued for the occasion (p. 317, Hallo).

My earlier research into the origins of the Sabbath revealed that the motifs of a God needing to rest is derived from Sumerian myths. I understand that the choice of a 7th day for the Rest Day is drawn from motifs found in the Epic of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis which mentioned that the gods in order to attain rest, set out to destroy all of mankind via a flood that lasted 6 days and nights, on the 7th day, the flood ended and the gods attained their rest, because mankind's unceasing day-and-night "noise" no longer distrubed them, all having perished in the flood except Utnapishtim and his family who had been forewarned to build an ark and save themselves.

Genesis opens with God making a world in 6 days and nights and resting on the 7th day, and suggests that on the 6th day God "caps" his creation with the making of man (Ge 1:26-31). In the Mesopotamian myths (the Epic of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis), the gods send a Flood to destroy all mankind. This is apparently achieved on the 6th day, because on the 7th day, the earth is still, peaceful and quiet, for all mankind is destroyed by the Flood with the exception of those on Utnapishtim's ark. I am arguing that the 6th day which witnessed the destruction of Mankind by murderous enraged gods was INVERTED by the Hebrews into the CREATION of mankind by a loving God.

According to the Old Babylonian Atrahasis myth, in the beginning there were two kinds of Gods, the Anunnaki and the Igigi who dwelt on the earth. The Igigi's job was to toil ceasely, day and night without respite, hoeing drainage ditches for irrigation, keeping them clear of debris, plant crops, harvest and present them to the Anunnaki gods as food. A rebellion eventually was threatened after some 40 years of non-stop night and day labor. The Anunnaki gods finally came to terms with the Igigi gods and agreed enough was enough. It was decided that a "new slave" or "servant" would be made to hoe irrigation ditches, grow and harvest food for the gods, he would be called "man". Man was to be made of earthly clay animated by the spirit of a slaughtered god (whose name was We-ila) who's blood and flesh would be mixed into the clay. The heartbeat, a type of drum, would remind man that the ghost of a slain god animated him !

Here's the kicker! Before slaughtering one of their own it was decreed that ALL THE GODS would have to take 3 ablution baths, evidently to purify themselves and absolve them of killing one of their own to make man. The days of ablution were the 1st, 7th and 15th of the month, which also happen to be the same 3 phases of the Moon especially observed by the Mesopotamians!

Clifford on Man's creation according to the Atrahasis myth:

"The creation of man in Atrahasis...The broad context is the rebellion of the Igigu gods, which requires a new creature to labor in their stead. The gods command Mami, a birth goddess (called Nintu here), to create lullu-man to bear the yoke assigned by Enlil. She agrees on condition that Enki provide the purified clay. He draws a bath to cleanse the gods from the impurity, a result probably of the death of the god in lines 204-209. Enki speaks:

"On the FIRST, SEVENTH, and FIFTEENTH OF THE MONTH I shall make a purification by washing. THEN one god should be slaughtered. And the gods can be purified by immersion. Ninti shall mix clay with his flesh and his blood. Then a god and a man will be mixed together in clay. Let us hear the drumbeat forever after. Let a ghost come into existence from the god's flesh, let her proclaim it as his living sign, and let the ghost exist so as not to forget (the slain god)." They answered "Yes!" in the assembly, the great Anunnaki who assign the fates."

(pp. 79-80, "Akkadian Texts, Atrahasis." Richard J. Clifford. Creation Accounts in the Ancient Near East and in the Bible. Washington, D.C. The Catholic Biblical Association of America. The Catholic Biblical Quarterly Monograph Series 26. 1994. ISBN 0-915170-25-6 pbk. pp.220)

Hymns to Inanna/Ishtar (the "Queen of Heaven") mention that on the 1st day of the month, the Moon sleeps (evidently because it disappears from view). On the 7th day of the month, Inanna/Ishtar takes a break from decimating mankind with war and carnage, by tying "war and strife " to her side. She refreshes herself by bathing and putting on new garments. So, the 7th day, like the 1st is a TYPE of RESTING DAY if you will, of the gods (Inanna was called "the First Daughter of the Moon" being the daughter of the Moon-god, Nanna/Sin). The 15th day is the day of the Full Moon. On this day the gods took their final ablution bath, and consequently, a god was slaughtered, his flesh and blood mixed with clay and mankind was made to relieve the gods of toil for evermore.

It is my understanding that most probably, the 1st, 7th and 15th days of the lunar month were for the Mesopotamians a "Type of Memorial" to remind man of how he came to be created, and how the gods came to enjoy eternal freedom from toil, the New Moon or 1st, 7th and 15th day of the ancient month marks the various times when the gods "RESTED."

I suspect that the Hebrews transformed these ancient motifs. Both myths present man being created, after which, the gods or A God RESTS! The reasons of course are different. God doesn't make man to toil for him and to feed him, He establishes the Sabbath to provide man a day of rest, as well as to honor himself in special worship. Nevertheless, the key ideas are present in both myths.

The prophets denounced the Queen of Heaven and worship of the Heavenly Host, the Moon, Sun and Stars. It is my understanding that the Hebrews' reformatting and transformation of the ancient Mesopotamian myths eliminated worship of the Moon and the ancient "Memorial to the creation of Man and the gods' RESTING" and substituted that "Memorial" with the "observance of New Moons."

More here:
http://www.bibleorigins.net/ShabbatShapattu.html

[tannah]

The Babylonian moon deity was called Sin. Another interesting moon god is an ancient Egyptian one called Yah, clearly the root of the Hebrew god.


It's amazing how many things are related. Thanks for that, I'll look up Yah. I
did see that diagram of the cross and MU a while back. Wasn't MU known as the father of all?

[clachan]

Yeah I agree. Jesus exists as part of Christ consciousness whether he physically existed or not. What I don't buy is the same kinda symbolism placed on him. Somehow placing this symbolism on Tammuz makes him false, but for Jesus it is true.

The word Sin has its origin in some Moon Goddess I think. Looking though the bible it tends to make sense when we realize where a lot of the myths come from. It just seems to me that many biblle worshipppers tend to condemn what thy actually worship themselves.

As for David Icke, I see him as a modern day Jesus type, which is why I have to laugh when bible freaks condemn him. Jesus exposed the corruption in his time, and David does the same today. And I personally think Jesus would admire the Icke type.

the first sentence is a contradiction,it doesn,t make good sense.

To compare Icke to Jesus Christ is ridiculous really considering his obvious human failings.

Jesus dispensed his wisdom freely,Icke charges £29.99 per book and probably has a very healthy bank balance......if he was any where near the quality of Jesus that money would be dished out to the needy.

You are way off line.

[kasalt]

the first sentence is a contradiction,it doesn,t make good sense.


Anything that can be thought of exists in the realm of thought, whether it physically exists or not.

[tannah]

the first sentence is a contradiction,it doesn,t make good sense.

To compare Icke to Jesus Christ is ridiculous really considering his obvious human failings.

Jesus dispensed his wisdom freely,Icke charges £29.99 per book and probably has a very healthy bank balance......if he was any where near the quality of Jesus that money would be dished out to the needy.

You are way off line.

Don't think so. Your reasons for saying Icke doesn't compare to a Jesus just points to David selling stuff. Instead I'm looking at what it is they want to expose, and what they also point to regarding God and Oneness. Icke saying all is Christ Consciouness is a highy elevated thing to say. And of course you know why. All things are of Christ and have Christ in it. You may argue that Christ only made them all but isn't actually in those things, but then we can't say God is Omnipresent.

I'll stick to my own percetions of Jesus, Christ and Icke for now. And I've known of other Jesus types throughout history.

Exposing how symbolism does nothing more than degrade the kind of man Jesus likely was, is only half the battle. The other half is getting to know the real solutions available to man by resting on Jesus's view of God and Oneness. He shares this view with other Masters. It's a toss up between accepting all these old myths and symbols placed on Christ, and therefore doing the elites bidding. Or we see through the con and know it is within us to implement change by waking up. One way follows the proverbial carrot, dangling just in front of you , keeping you looking out there for a "return". The other way is to expect inner revelation, inner return or remembering.

[drakul]

I still have not seen any Babylonian archeological evidence presented by Tannah or anyone else that Tammuz was `associated with the cross'.

So not only do Tannah's sources lie by claiming Tammuz was crucified, the next layer of Masonic lies is that the Babylonian Tammuz was `associated with the cross' :confused:

[tannah]

I still have not seen any Babylonian archeological evidence presented by Tannah or anyone else that Tammuz was `associated with the cross'.

So not only do Tannah's sources lie by claiming Tammuz was crucified, the next layer of Masonic lies is that the Babylonian Tammuz was `associated with the cross' :confused:


Well this bible person did some research and he seems to think the sources he found were true about Tammuz. Except that this guy chooses to be in denial about its implications. He thinks his bible hasn't been coated with a similar brush.

You'd make an excellent witch hunter Drakk. But I'll carry on my merry liittle way and keep digging.


TAMMUZ

We had visitors from Brownwood, TX, and during the morning prayer meeting, one of them remarked that the Lord had impressed her while reading Ezekiel 8:14, to trace the word "Tammuz" that is used there. She found that it is no place else in the Bible, so this made her want to know what was so important about Tammuz, that the women of Israel were sitting at the North Gate of the temple, weeping for Tammuz.

Her findings caused me also to ponder the question, "Who was Tammuz?" I found that in the Amplified, New American Standard, Living and King James Bibles, it is spelled Tammuz, and that Ferrar Fenton spells it Thamuz. I also noted that I found no comments about Tammuz in any of the references or concordances, except in the Dake Bible, (Page 812). The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, 1970 edition, Page 827, supports Dake’s notes. Halley’s Handbooks Page 327, tells us that part of the worship to Tammuz was wild sex orgies held at the temple itself.

I then went to Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 4, Pages 443 and 444, where I also found comments coinciding with Dake. I then got out Matthew Henry’s Commentary, Vol. 4, Page 795, and found it similar to the others. I then checked the International Bible Commentary and found three additional secular books listed as references, so decided to see what the encyclopedias had to say. I found that Funk & Wagnalls, Vol. 23, Page 8397, 1959 edition, had a small paragraph stating Tammuz to be part of Babylonian mythology, the counterpart of the Phenician God, Adonis. I then got out the Britannica, Vol. 21, Page 776, 1947 edition, and to my surprise found an entire page to the history of Tammuz, including ten reference books on the subject. Also, my attention was called to my calendar and there, marked on July 5, was the Feast of Tammuz. The things that I found make me ponder ... Tammuz’s worship is traced back as far as Ur and Umma, in the days of Abraham. I found that Tammuz’s mother was known as and called herself the Queen of Heaven. Catholicism picked up this abominable name and applied it to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

I found that December 25th is the day celebrated for Tammuz’s birthday. I found that Easter is the day celebrated for his resurrection from the dead. I found that the cross that we have learned to honor as a symbol of Christ’s death, is in reality, the symbol used in the worship of Tammuz. The cross was really a "T" for Tammuz, used as a symbol for him hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus.

I found that he was killed by a herd of wild swine and lay dead in a village street for three days and then supposedly arose from the dead. I found that he was called the messiah. All of this is in secular history about one word, Tammuz, found only once in the Bible, where God is showing Ezekiel the abominations that are in HIS HOUSE.

I wonder, are these things in God’s House today? Are they celebrated in your home, and if so, are they bringing curses on your family?

Was the worship of a heathen god’s mother transferred to the mother of our Lord? Has the worship of the birth (December 25) of a heathen god been transferred to our Lord? Has the honoring of the so called resurrection of a heathen god been accepted by the church and applied to our Lord Jesus Christ?

This makes me wonder what a so-called Christmas Tree really means?

What does the tinsel, the balls, the candles and the gifts represent?

What do Easter bunnies and eggs mean to pagan god worship?

My heart shivers within me as I ponder. Did Ezekiel see the temple of his day or was it the so-called church of today? Do we practice? are we guilty? Do we have worship to heathen gods in our churches and our homes on Christmas and Easter? Have we sinned a great sin in this as individuals and as a Nation?

Having other gods brings a curse from God on both the individual and the nation. Deuteronomy 11:26-28, "Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, If ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known." Only God can remove the curses, if and when we truly repent and turn from our abominable ways.

On these things, I ponder, and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to turn upon us the light of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.lakehamiltonbiblecamp.com/ponder/tammuz.htm



How many layers of BS are we to associate you with Drakul?

[elirien]

from this site:

http://www.reformation.org/cross-busters.html

5 Scriptures that say distinctly that Jesus was nailed to a TREE
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a TREE (xulon)" (Acts 5:30). "And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a TREE (xulon)" (Acts 10:39). "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the TREE (xulon), and laid him in a sepulchre" (Acts 13:30). "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a TREE (xulon)" (Galatians 3:13). (Deut. 21:23). "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the TREE (xulon), that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed "(I St. Peter 2:24).
Just was a quick google search. I don't know anything about validity or even Greek. It would be nice if someone could have a look into it.

tammuz cross - Google'da Ara

2. link.


On the word Xulon:



wood

that which is made of wood

as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross
a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs
a fetter, or shackle for the feet
a cudgel, stick, staff




a tree

from: http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3586

[drakul]

Well this bible person did some research and he seems to think the sources he found were true about Tammuz. Except that this guy chooses to be in denial about its implications. He thinks his bible hasn't been coated with a similar brush.

You'd make an excellent witch hunter Drakk. But I'll carry on my merry liittle way and keep digging.
How many layers of BS are we to associate you with Drakul?

Because some `bible person' said something about Tammuz means exactly zero. And you know it. There's a billion mouths out there flapping a billion miles a minute.

Just show me the beef - archeological EVIDENCE. That shouldn't be hard. Or are you like the rest of the `alternative historians' and `astro-theologians' who operate constantly quote each other as sources - `Oh it must be true because Alexander Hislop said it, therefore you better believe.' Alexander Hislop died in 1865. He wasn't an archeologist, he didn't read Sumerian or Assyrian or Babylonian and if you read his work, some of it is 1800s ridiculous. Furthermore Hislop does not prove that Tammuz was crucified or even `associated with the cross'. If he does then show me. I am listening.

[tannah]

Because some `bible person' said something about Tammuz means exactly zero. And you know it. There's a billion mouths out there flapping a billion miles a minute.

Just show me the beef - archeological EVIDENCE. That shouldn't be hard. Or are you like the rest of the `alternative historians' and `astro-theologians' who operate constantly quote each other as sources - `Oh it must be true because Alexander Hislop said it, therefore you better believe.' Alexander Hislop died in 1865. He wasn't an archeologist, he didn't read Sumerian or Assyrian or Babylonian and if you read his work, some of it is 1800s ridiculous. Furthermore Hislop does not prove that Tammuz was crucified or even `associated with the cross'. If he does then show me. I am listening.

I'm not a historian presumptious one. I'm a simple human doing my own fucking research..:) We can't all be James Bonds and triple agents

We've meandered here from the David Icke on Christianity video.
This is about myths that the bible borrowed heavily from. If it is rehashed mythology my first need to know is what exactly the bible borrowed:


When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed
(a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.
Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place,
and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured
reeds, cedar, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor,
and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.
Just then Beletili arrived.
She lifted up the large flies (beads) which Anu had made for
his enjoyment(!):
'You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli
around my neck,
may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them!
The gods may come to the incense offering,
but Enlil may not come to the incense offering,
because without considering he brought about the Flood
and consigned my people to annihilation.'
Just then Enlil arrived.
He saw the boat and became furious,
he was filled with rage at the Igigi gods:
'Where did a living being escape?
No man was to survive the annihilation!'

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm


So, I'm simple. Are these Sumerian texts real? I've just run into Genesis here right?

If you are a policeman checking out several burgalaries down the same street, and you find a house that has one of the stolen items in it what do you do? You probably suspect there's more stolen goods to find.

Why did Moses steal this myth?? Anything to do with Abraham and Ur and some Egyptian thrown in?

The tablets also talk of death and resurrection.

But I hear ya in another way. I don't take anything for gospel. Best go tell these guys they're wrong as well.


Mythology
Question book-new.svg
This section does not cite any references or sources.
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2010)

The Tau cross was a symbol of the Roman God Mithras and the Greek Attis, and their forerunner Tammuz, the Sumerian solar God, the consort of the Goddess Ishtar.

Tammuz, like Christ, was associated with fishing and shepherding. The Tau cross takes the shape of the letter of his name, and is one of the oldest letters known. A solar god, the death and resurrection of Tammuz were celebrated every summer.

http://www.answers.com/topic/tau-cross


I mean, it could all be lies from satan and these stories are fakes.

Surely all these dictionaries and encylopedias check their sources, No?

[tannah]

Or are you like the rest of the `alternative historians'

Like this you mean?



It is claimed that Jesus studied at a Druid university at Glastonbury.12 When he arrived it was evident that he was a Druid. During this time he worked part-time in his uncle’s tin mines. Even into the 20th century miners and tinners of this area chant and sing a song that contains the words: “Jesus was in the trade.”

I have already pointed out the correspondences between the Druidic Tau cross and the Christian (S)tau-ros Pillar and how the coming savior was identified as Yesus hundreds of years before the time of Jesus. The more Druidism is studied the more obvious is its relationship to the teachings of Jesus. This may explain why the Druids so quickly accepted Jesus into their inner mysteries and why Joseph of Arimathea chose Glastonbury Tor as the place to store the ‘blood of life’.

One reason most Christians may not have previously considered the connection between Jesus and the Druids is that the Roman political machine viewed Druidism as one of its greatest threats. It was largely wiped out by emperors Augustus, the founder of the Roman empire and its sole ruler from 31 B.C. to A.D. 14, and Tiberius both Caesars who outlawed the religion of the Druids, declaring its practice a treasonous offense.

**********************

As we have seen, the key to decoding the esoteric meaning of Jesus as the “door” is found in the Sabala and the Emerald (S)tones of Thoth. The bulk of the myths used to explain this process of climbing the Ladder to Heaven are derived from Sumerian, Egyptian, Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian myth.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/merovingians/blueapples/blueapples_12.htm




Far out.

[tannah]

from this site:

http://www.reformation.org/cross-busters.html

5 Scriptures that say distinctly that Jesus was nailed to a TREE
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a TREE (xulon)" (Acts 5:30). "And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a TREE (xulon)" (Acts 10:39). "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the TREE (xulon), and laid him in a sepulchre" (Acts 13:30). "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a TREE (xulon)" (Galatians 3:13). (Deut. 21:23). "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the TREE (xulon), that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed "(I St. Peter 2:24).
Just was a quick google search. I don't know anything about validity or even Greek. It would be nice if someone could have a look into it.

http://www.google.com.tr/search?q=tammuz+cross+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

2. link.


On the word Xulon:



wood

that which is made of wood

as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross
a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs
a fetter, or shackle for the feet
a cudgel, stick, staff




a tree

from: http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3586


Cheers for that. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says this about the cross :


Cross, Crucify [Noun]

stauros denotes, primarily, "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ.

As for the Chi, or X, which Constantine declared he had seen in a vision leading him to champion the Christian faith, that letter was the initial of the word "Christ" and had nothing to do with "the Cross" (for xulon, "a timber beam, a tree," as used for the stauros, see under TREE).

The method of execution was borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians. The stauros denotes
(a) "the cross, or stake itself," e.g., Matt_27:32;
(b) "the crucifixion suffered," e.g., 1_Cor_1:17,18, where "the word of the cross," RV, stands for the Gospel; Gal_5:11, where crucifixion is metaphorically used of the renunciation of the world, that characterizes the true Christian life; Gal_6:12,14; Eph_2:16; Php_3:18.

The judicial custom by which the condemned person carried his stake to the place of execution, was applied by the Lord to those sufferings by which His faithful followers were to express their fellowship with Him, e.g., Matt_10:38.

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=0616

[clachan]

Anything that can be thought of exists in the realm of thought, whether it physically exists or not.

Im saying that the words spoken by Jesus were spoken by a real person,not by "the realm of thought".

The word came from the mouth which was attached to someone.They did not just pop into this realm,they were said by someone.

Why so much intellectualising and complex explainations when really its very simple ?

[orlibonurb]

It all goes down to,

1 Corinthians {1:18} For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. {1:19} For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. {1:20} Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? {1:21} For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


2 Corinthians {4:3} But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4:4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. {4:5} For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. {4:6} For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[tannah]

It all goes down to,

1 Corinthians {1:18} For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. {1:19} For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. {1:20} Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? {1:21} For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


2 Corinthians {4:3} But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4:4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. {4:5} For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. {4:6} For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Har har ferking har. You speil off about the evil "mysteries of Babylon" and you're totally immersed in it, with you cross/death/resurrection myth symbolism.

You cum here spouting the "son of God", "God incarnate " dying and resurrecting and all of it BORROWED.

You think dying on a cross somehow does something special do you? Is that the key to the underworld?

And for all this obvious BS you believe you only seem to condemn the BS myths of others.

The Romans got their new deity, and the Jesus/Jehovah combo of the bible has done rather well for empires and religion. So why don't you apply the eye of criticism to your own sordid myth?


Genesis is exposed, as is the death/resurrection/saviour myth.

[orlibonurb]

Har har ferking har. You speil off about the evil "mysteries of Babylon" and you're totally immersed in it, with you cross/death/resurrection myth symbolism.

You cum here spouting the "son of God", "God incarnate " dying and resurrecting and all of it BORROWED.

You think dying on a cross somehow does something special do you? Is that the key to the underworld?

And for all this obvious BS you believe you only seem to condemn the BS myths of others.

The Romans got their new deity, and the Jesus/Jehovah combo of the bible has done rather well for empires and religion. So why don't you apply the eye of criticism to your own sordid myth?


Genesis is exposed, as is the death/resurrection/saviour myth.

tannah lol, poor deceived soul. If only you knew how easy it is to know Jesus was who He said He was, yes 2,000 years later. In fact, we could be living 80,000 years later and it'd still be as easy to figure it out.

If only you knew . . . but as the WORD OF GOD states, it is foolishness to you.


Repent of your sins and call out for Jesus, He promised several things would happen to you / us. You don't want to do it ? Too bad, many have already done it, but it is a minority,

Matthew {7:13} Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {7:14} Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Get off that broad road (New Age mysticism / occultism), come to the light, come to Jesus. He'll give you a new heart and a new life (besides eternal life).

2 Corinthians {5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

[tannah]

tannah lol, poor deceived soul. If only you knew how easy it is to know Jesus was who He said He was, yes 2,000 years later. In fact, we could be living 80,000 years later and it'd still be as easy to figure it out.

If only you knew . . . but as the WORD OF GOD states, it is foolishness to you.

Then again, you quote a disinformation agent in the truth seeking movement, Har Har Har. Great one.

Um, whether you like it or not I do know God, and it knows that you are a liar and a hipnotized ego tripper.

[orlibonurb]

No you don't.

You know your own version of God. It is also called idolatry.

Idolatry as in,

http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/10-commandments-explained.jpg

#1 & #2.


Again, get off that broad road.

[tannah]

No you don't.

You know your own version of God. It is also called idolatry.

Idolatry as in,

http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/10-commandments-explained.jpg

#1 & #2.


Again, get off that broad road.


Fuck thee off my thread psycho.

[clachan]

Har har ferking har. You speil off about the evil "mysteries of Babylon" and you're totally immersed in it, with you cross/death/resurrection myth symbolism.

You cum here spouting the "son of God", "God incarnate " dying and resurrecting and all of it BORROWED.

You think dying on a cross somehow does something special do you? Is that the key to the underworld?

And for all this obvious BS you believe you only seem to condemn the BS myths of others.

The Romans got their new deity, and the Jesus/Jehovah combo of the bible has done rather well for empires and religion. So why don't you apply the eye of criticism to your own sordid myth?


Genesis is exposed, as is the death/resurrection/saviour myth.

For someone who tells me that Christ consciousness is right before me this post is indeed a surprise......

[clachan]

Fuck thee off my thread psycho.

Is this sort of abuse ^ what you mean by Christ consciousness ?

[seanx]

orlibonurb wrote:

tannah lol, poor deceived soul. If only you knew how easy it is to know Jesus was who He said He was, yes 2,000 years later. In fact, we could be living 80,000 years later and it'd still be as easy to figure it out.

If only you knew . . . but as the WORD OF GOD states, it is foolishness to you.


Repent of your sins and call out for Jesus, He promised several things would happen to you / us. You don't want to do it ? Too bad, many have already done it, but it is a minority,

Matthew {7:13} Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {7:14} Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Get off that broad road (New Age mysticism / occultism), come to the light, come to Jesus. He'll give you a new heart and a new life (besides eternal life).

2 Corinthians {5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Why do you guys who are programmed into this matrix Christainity
aways feel the need to print excerpts from your programming manual
here??

You quote your bible which anybody coud have written and treat
it as if it is absoute law.

Why?

Because you have been hypnotised over the centuries into the
belief that this is the word of God and it must be obeyed!

it is good hypnotism but it don't make it true.

look into my eyes.........and wake up!

[elirien]

Cheers for that. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says this about the cross :

Thank you very much.

[tannah]

Is this sort of abuse ^ what you mean by Christ consciousness ?


You think I'm abusing Orli? But he's not abusive?

I confess Clachan, I got a pallette of naughty words. But as long as God never reads a post of mine where I've closed my mind and tell another human they're going to hell forever, I'm ok with my use of language. That doesn't mean I agree I should let the ol gits upset me in the first place.

Anyway, bollox to the destraction. Got some more info on these death/resurrection myths, and really unless you or Orli or anyone have something more constructive to say, I'll sit on my hands and just ignore it.:)

[orlibonurb]

Got to love these hypocrites (ie. tannah) who talk more about hell than all Christians combined, yet he claims the others (ie. me) are abusive towards his, oh-so "higher consciousness state of being".

Madness.

[orlibonurb]

orlibonurb wrote:



Why do you guys who are programmed into this matrix Christainity
aways feel the need to print excerpts from your programming manual
here??

You quote your bible which anybody coud have written and treat
it as if it is absoute law.

Why?

Because you have been hypnotised over the centuries into the
belief that this is the word of God and it must be obeyed!

it is good hypnotism but it don't make it true.

look into my eyes.........and wake up!

Did it never occur to you that there could be something in the Bible for us to say that - "Yes, it is the irrefutable Word of the living God (Jesus)" ?

It's as simple as this, it either is the Word of God or it is not. "Weird" how Christians didn't think twice when dying the most horrendous deaths during the inquisition (note: more Christians died in last century alone than in all periods of history combined). Those deaths weren't even close to what we saw in that HELLywood movie series called "SAW" by the way.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qUFDMUpk9jE/Ru4nkFt05dI/AAAAAAAAFbI/pI-aC8JDHeg/s320/inquisition-espagnole.jpg

http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/images/inquisition1.jpg

http://www.burningcross.net/inquisition/missionaries/water-torture.jpg

Or they know something you don't, but should.

It really is "weird" how they would lay down their lifes left and right (and still do to this very day like no other group of people on the face of the earth) for a mere "book / belief system" uh.

Last time I checked, we don't die for asking the right questions. On the other side, it seems quite healthy. We can go for a simple "what if it's true", followed by a "how can I know with absolute certainty".

[tannah]

Got to love these hypocrites (ie. tannah) who talk more about hell than all Christians combined, yet he claims the others (ie. me) are abusive towards his, oh-so "higher consciousness state of being".

Madness.

Hell doesn't enter my beliefs, but it does yours, ol Babylonian myth worshipper.


PS.. my dislike of your particular brand of blindness is based on all bad dreams your bollox has given people.
you've proved that it isn't worth reasoning with you. You're a liar and a backstabber. you are a liar because you llie to yourself primarily. When I'm done finding stuff to support the view Icke has of your myth worship, I'll list what you have in common with all these things you condemn, and you can be in as much denial as you like.

[orlibonurb]

Hell doesn't enter my beliefs, but it does yours, ol Babylonian myth worshipper.


PS.. my dislike of your particular brand of blindness is based on all bad dreams your bollox has given people.
you've proved that it isn't worth reasoning with you. You're a liar and a backstabber. you are a liar because you llie to yourself primarily. When I'm done finding stuff to support the view Icke has of your myth worship, I'll list what you have in common with all these things you condemn, and you can be in as much denial as you like.

I'm not a Catholic, "Zeitgeist / disinformation agents (ie. David Wicked)" follower. That's exactly what happens when man (you) . . . follow other man (Icke). Only sheep follow . . .

Matthew {15:14} Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


David Icke has been debunked by many, many, many people out there. Even you can, oh-so, easily debunk him. Problem is, your capability of critical thinking seems quite bad or actually non-existant.

[clachan]

You think I'm abusing Orli? But he's not abusive?

I confess Clachan, I got a pallette of naughty words. But as long as God never reads a post of mine where I've closed my mind and tell another human they're going to hell forever, I'm ok with my use of language. That doesn't mean I agree I should let the ol gits upset me in the first place.

Anyway, bollox to the destraction. Got some more info on these death/resurrection myths, and really unless you or Orli or anyone have something more constructive to say, I'll sit on my hands and just ignore it.:)

Thats fine,just thought you may want to examine yourself by reflection and see if you make sense of yourself and what motivates you here.
Maybe death and resurrection is symbolic and something we can apply to ourselves when we need to improve.
Before we can die from our old self we have to be alive to it.

[tannah]

Not a Catholic, "Zeitgeist follower".

Oh but you are, denier. Was Jesus resurrected on the third day? Was Mary a virgin who conceived Jesus and was he God?

[tannah]

Thats fine,just thought you may want to examine yourself by reflection and see if you make sense of yourself and what motivates you here.
Maybe death and resurrection is symbolic and something we can apply to ourselves when we need to improve.
Before we can die from our old self we have to be alive to it.

I lead a life of service Clach. God can judge wherever and whenever.

[tannah]

I'm not a Catholic, "Zeitgeist / disinformation agents (ie. David Wicked)" follower. That's exactly what happens when man (you) . . . follow other man (Icke). Only sheep follow . . .

Matthew {15:14} Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


David Icke has been debunked by many, many, many people out there. Even you can, oh-so, easily debunk him. Problem is, your capability of critical thinking seems quite bad or actually non-existant.

:D Geez. We will see.

[orlibonurb]

Oh but you are, denier. Was Jesus resurrected on the third day? Was Mary a virgin who conceived Jesus and was he God?


Absolutely. Every single chapter, verse, word, letter, dot, comma is inspired by God.

If He didn't rise on the third day, me and dozens upon dozens of millions would still be living in their old sinful lifestyles. If He wasn't who He said He was (God in the flesh), born of a virgin, and if He didn't rise again on the third day as we see in the scriptures, then my faith would be totally in vain. My life (and the life of millions of true Christians) would not have totally changed. The hilarious thing is that we did not do anything else but,

1. repented of our sins, 2. ask Jesus to reveal Himself to us / save our souls.

He did everything to us, and all we have to do really is to accept the free gift. It can not be any easier than this.

1 Corinthians {15:12} Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? {15:13} But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: {15:14} And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. {15:15} Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. {15:16} For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: {15:17} And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. {15:18} Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. {15:19} If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. {15:20} But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[tannah]

I'm sure there's older stuff too.





Dr. PAUL COLLINS, PhD Archaeology University College London, UK - BRITISH MUSEUM GALLERY LECTURER

3. WHY ANCIENT MESOPOTAMIAN MYTHS?

The importance of Ancient Mesopotamia to understand our own present-day civilisation cannot be underestimated. It was Mesopotamia the home of some of the world’s earliest cities and the place where writing was invented. For these two major developments, namely to have originated a society both urban and literate, Mesopotamia might be rightly called ‘ the cradle of civilisation’, as well as its literature, religious philosophy and art can be placed firmly as direct ancestor to the Western world and the Judeo-Christian tradition in special.

Indeed, it is possible to trace back to Mesopotamia pieces of wisdom found later in Jewish, Phoenician, Egyptian (especially Alchemy) and even Greek tradition, and these similarities, whenever they take place, will be highlighted in the myths amd essays that follow.

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/whymeso.htm

[orlibonurb]

You can literally fill 200 pages with it lol. I mean, 600 if that will make you happier. Heck, go for 2,000 pages.


In the end, you, David "Agent" Icke, and all the sources you may post (Zeitgeist included lol) already lost.

It's not even a battle. You either accept the truth or you can try and throw down a gigantic castle with your bare hands.

The door is right next to you thou.

And it's open 24/7.



Luke {11:9} And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. {11:10} For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. {11:11} If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? {11:12} Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? {11:13} If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


edit: have you ever been so confident about something . . . something you know is truth with 100% certainty and then see someone trying to debunk it. You just stand back watching the other guy going literally nuts over something that he is not right about it. You know he's absolutely wrong, but he just won't give up on the idea, so you eventually just sit back and giggle in a kind way.


Yep,

:)

[tannah]

You can literally fill 200 pages with it lol. I mean, 600 if that will make you happier. Heck, go for 2,000 pages.


In the end, you, David "Agent" Icke, and all the sources you may post (Zeitgeist included lol) already lost.

It's not even a battle. You either accept the truth or you can try and throw down a gigantic castle with your bare hands.

The door is right next to you thou.

And it's open 24/7.



Luke {11:9} And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. {11:10} For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. {11:11} If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? {11:12} Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? {11:13} If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


edit: have you ever been so confident about something . . . something you know is truth with 100% certainty and then see someone trying to debunk it. You just stand back watching the other guy going literally nuts over something that he is not right about it. You know he's absolutely wrong, but he just won't give up on the idea, so you eventually just sit back and giggle in a kind way.


Yep,

:)

Are you ready to start contributing a little more constructively now you've got that out of your system?

[orlibonurb]

I have, you just don't get it.


1 Corinthians {1:18} For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. {1:19} For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. {1:20} Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? {1:21} For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Can't be more constructive and precise than this. Want to meet the living God face to face ? Want to have your sins forgiven ? Want to have eternal life ? The door is Jesus (and it's open 24/7).

John {14:6} Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. {14:7} If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[tannah]

I have, you just don't get it.


1 Corinthians {1:18} For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. {1:19} For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. {1:20} Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? {1:21} For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Can't be more constructive and precise than this. Want to meet the living God face to face ? Want to have eternal life ? The door is Jesus (and it's open 24/7).


you're here to derail this forum. you hate David Icke, and others who go about exposing your kinda hipnotism.

I know you have every intention of derailing this thread, but I'll have a go at doing a summation at the end and then ask if the moderators will lock the thread.:)

[orlibonurb]

you're here to derail this forum. you hate David Icke, and others who go about exposing your kinda hipnotism.

I know you have every intention of derailing this thread, but I'll have a go at doing a summation at the end and then ask if the moderators will lock the thread.:)

We are on the "religion" board. I assumed you knew that at least. Here I was giving you credit but well - seems like you have failed to noticed that too.

Just remember I did not report your complete hateful posts where you even got to the point of asking to be banned from this forum.

Then again, go for it, do whatever it pleases you.

[tannah]

We are on the "religion" board.

that's right. we're not on the Christian evangelism board where you can keep cornering people with the same ol.

Part of a religion board is to focus on religion, not on your evangelizing quests. And I'd expect that on a David Icke forum I can post a video of his and then go about exploring the myths that have given rise to religions.
If you want to discuss them objectivly I can't stop you. But you are not actually discussing them mr evangelical.



I assumed you knew that at least. Here I was giving you credit but well - seems like you have failed to noticed that too.

Yeah super cool Orli.


Just remember I did not report your complete hateful posts where you even got to the point of asking to be banned from this forum.


Yeah imagine that, a little blast of humanity. Shouldn't be allowed. I need to be sectioned. We need to be far more like you perhaps, born again into the likeness of God through the holy spirit isn't it?? Let me know how that goes.

[orlibonurb]

Yeah imagine that, a little blast of humanity. Shouldn't be allowed. I need to be sectioned. We need to be far more like you perhaps, born again into the likeness of God through the holy spirit isn't it?? Let me know how that goes.

No, perhaps we should be more like you and raphael telling everyone to go "F" themselves.

Man can not look at man at all. I'm no better than you, quite the opposite.

We are all on the same boat.

Romans {3:23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {3:24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

And the boat has no "compartmentalizations", but I'll stop here as far as this thread is concerned.

[tannah]

No, perhaps we should be more like you and raphael telling everyone to go "F" themselves.




Everyone? I know how eager to judge you are. But myself I wouldn't judge a person that uses "swear" words as part of their vocabulary. I guess you won't really care when I'm screaming "FUCKKKKK IT'S TORTURE" down there in ye old underworld?



but I'll stop here as far as this thread is concerned.


Well let's see if you're really a man of truth.;)

[trev1]

I hate Religion. The bible is full of stories written by mystics :cool:
All religion is just brainwashing - I would say it is based on archeology too

Even if Jesus was real person doesnt mean he was the 'son of god'....
and anyway the 'god' is the Yehovah figure in the bible who was a muderer
too. Like when he sent joshua into Jericho to kill all people inside inc
women and children. He obviouslt didnt follow his own laws eh? He also
killed 10,000 hebews (Moses followers ) at one point.

These gods from the bible were most likely ETs that created us humans
in 'their' image... the people of 1,000s of years ago were describing
an ET race that came. The same gods of old that the greeks and
sumerians had, that probably lived in a place called atlantis and most
likely built the great pyramid.
These gods mated with the human to create genetic bloodlines who exist to
this date in the form of the illuminati (illuminated into ancient knowledge
and wisdom that they keep from the rest of us). or called 'the brotherhood
of the snake'.
These gods are probably the nordic ETs that people see and the Greys
some sort of helper for them .....
I dont think these being give a much a shit about us to be honest (like
why would we give a shit about goldfish?) and are just watching us all
the time to make sure we dont get too big for our boots.

for those who say theres one god and all that shit they want to get
a life. Like a man with a grey bread in the sky..Who created him then?
The whole think about you must believe or burn in hell is some sick shit
as well as we will all be judged when we die or something!

Read the book 'The Gods Of Eden' by William Bramley...

[seanx]

orlibonurb wrote:


Or they know something you don't, but should.

It really is "weird" how they would lay down their lifes left and right (and still do to this very day like no other group of people on the face of the earth) for a mere "book / belief system" uh.

Last time I checked, we don't die for asking the right questions. On the other side, it seems quite healthy. We can go for a simple "what if it's true", followed by a "how can I know with absolute certainty

All these poor 'christains' were very brave but they were brainwashed.

What you FORGOT to mention were the 1 MILLION women your religion
butchered and burnt to death for being women, sorry 'witches'.

Anybody who knows anything about trauma-induced programming will know
why a whole generation of people were 'converted' to your matrix Christainity.

Now: tell me; why did your 'religion' need to burn to death a million
innocent souls???

Ans stop quoting 'quotes' from your programming manual - most
people here aren't programmed to respond to it like you guys are.

That's sad for you but true.

[jesusistruth]

Regarding the martyrdom, the same thing is happening with falung gong members in China today as happened to the early Church.

No dictatorial state wants competition from any movement.