Holocaust Remembrance (Hidden Deceptions.

[accuracy]

Holocaust remembrance is a boon for Israeli propaganda

Fri., January 29, 2010

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145670.html

Israel's bigwigs attacked at dawn on a wide front. The president in Germany, the prime minister with a giant entourage in Poland, the foreign minister in Hungary, his deputy in Slovakia, the culture minister in France, the information minister at the United Nations, and even the Likud party's Druze Knesset member, Ayoob Kara, in Italy. They were all out there to make florid speeches about the Holocaust.

Wednesday was International Holocaust Remembrance Day, and an Israeli public relations drive like this hasn't been seen for ages. The timing of the unusual effort - never have so many ministers deployed across the globe - is not coincidental: When the world is talking Goldstone, we talk Holocaust, as if out to blur the impression. When the world talks occupation, we'll talk Iran as if we wanted them to forget.

It won't help much. International Holocaust Remembrance Day has passed, the speeches will soon be forgotten, and the depressing everyday reality will remain. Israel will not come out looking good, even after the PR campaign.

On the eve of his departure, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke at Yad Vashem. "There is evil in the world," he said. "Evil must be stamped out at the beginning." Some people are "trying to deny the truth." Lofty words, said by the same person who only the day before, not quite in the same breath, uttered very different words, words of true evil, evil that should be extinguished at the start, evil that Israel is trying to hide.

Netanyahu spoke of a new "migration policy," one that is evil through and through. He malevolently lumped together migrant workers and wretched refugees - warning that they all endanger Israel, lower our wages, harm our security, make us into a third-world country and bring in drugs. He zealously supported our racist interior minister, Eli Yishai, who has spoken of the migrants as the spreaders of diseases such as hepatitis, tuberculosis, AIDS and God knows what else.

No Holocaust speech will erase these words of incitement and slander against migrants. No remembrance speech will obliterate the xenophobia that has reared its head in Israel, not only on the extreme right, as in Europe, but throughout government.

We have a prime minister who speaks about evil but is building a fence to prevent war refugees from knocking at Israel's door. A prime minister who speaks about evil but shares the crime of the Gaza blockade, now in its fourth year, leaving 1.5 million people in disgraceful conditions. A prime minister in whose country settlers perpetrate pogroms against innocent Palestinians under the slogan "price tag," which also has horrific historical connotations, but against whom the state does virtually nothing.

This is the prime minister of a state that arrests hundreds of left-wing protesters against the injustices of the occupation and the war in Gaza, while time grants mass pardons to the right-wingers who demonstrated against the disengagement. In his speech yesterday, Netanyahu's equating Nazi Germany with fundamentalist Iran was no more than cheap propaganda. Talk about "degrading the Holocaust." Iran isn't Germany, Ahmedinejad isn't Hitler and equating them is no less spurious than equating Israeli soldiers with Nazis.

The Holocaust must not be forgotten, and there is no need to compare it with anything. Israel must take part in the efforts to keep its memory alive, but in doing so it must show up with clean hands, clean of evil of their own doing. And it must not arouse suspicion that it is cynically using the memory of the Holocaust to obliterate and blur other things. Regrettably, this is not the case.

How beautiful it would have been if on this international day of remembrance Israel had taken the time to examine itself, look inward and ask, for example, how it is that anti-Semitism has reared its head in the world precisely in the past year, the year after we dropped white-phosphorous bombs on Gaza. How beautiful it would have been if on this International Holocaust Remembrance Day, Netanyahu had declared a new policy for integrating refugees instead of expulsion, or lifted the Gaza blockade.

A thousand speeches against anti-Semitism will not extinguish the flames ignited by Operation Cast Lead, flames that threaten not only Israel but the entire Jewish world. As long as Gaza is under blockade and Israel sinks into its institutionalized xenophobia, Holocaust speeches will remain hollow. As long as evil is rampant here at home, neither the world nor we will be able to accept our preaching to others, even if they deserve it.

----------------------------------------------

[accuracy]

Holocaust was a Jewish invention, says top Polish bishop

25.01.2010 08:41
http://www.thenews.pl/international/artykul124305_holocaust-was-a-jewish-invention--says-top-polish-bishop.html

UPDATE - Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, one of Poland’s most prominent religious figures, is reported to have told an Italian Catholic news web site that the Holocaust was a "Jewish invention". The bishop says his remarks were “taken out of context” however.


http://www.polskieradio.pl/_admin/cm/polonia/_Sekcja242/_images/2010012508442711_240.jpg

"The Holocaust, as such, is a Jewish invention [invenzione ebraica]. We could just as well establish a day of remembrance to the numerous victims of communism, when Catholics and Christians were persecuted," he told the Pontifex.Roma web site on Sunday.



In remarks that will outrage Jews the world over, Bishop Pieronek said that in his opinion the memory of the Holocaust is often used as a “propaganda weapon” by Israel.



The Krakow-based bishop said: “Undoubtedly, the majority of those who died in the concentration camps were Jews, but also on the list were Poles, Gypsies, Italians and Catholics. So do not steal this tragedy in the name of propaganda.”



“But they, the Jews, have a good press, because the powerful have the financial resources - extremely powerful with the unconditional support of the United States. And this promotes a kind of arrogance, which I consider to be unbearable,” Bishop Pieronek continued.



The bishop expressed his opinion that the Palestinians are victims of injustice at the hands of the Israelis.



“Seeing the photographs of the [Gaza] wall we can conclude that a colossal injustice has been committed against the Palestinians, who are treated like animals and their rights are being violated.”



“Let them establish [the international lobby] a Memorial Day for them also.”



Out of context



Bishop Pieronek, however, says the interview printed on the Italian web site bares little resemblance to the one that he gave the journalist.



“I have not seen the printed text of the interview, which I have given but have not authorized. But if I were to believe in what I hear from the media then it looks as though the final form of the interview was the idea of the journalist that I had spoken to, as the text is full of vague statements."



The controversy comes Just two days before Holocaust remembrance Day on January 27 and prime minister of Israel Benyamin Netanyahu’s visit to Poland for the 65 anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. (pg)



Source: PAP
----------------------------------------------------

[accuracy]

The Myth of Nazi Persecution of Gays

January 28, 2010

http://www.henrymakow.com/the_myth_of_nazi_persecution_o.html

By J. De Meo
(Amazon Reviews)


The authors tackle the politically-charged question of the homoerotic and homosexual nature of the Third Reich leadership. It is a serious scholarly work exposing a wealth of information on the following basic points:

1) While Hitler's Mein Kampf degraded Jews, Marxists, Negroes, Chinese, Arabs, women, and Eastern Europeans, he had no negative remarks for homosexuality. Instead, Hitler chose actively homosexual men as influential Nazi party and youth leaders.

2) The top and central most Nazi personalities and groups (SA, SS) which constructed the Third Reich were predominantly macho-types of male homosexuals or bi-sexuals.

3) Rohm and the SA "brownshirt" leaders were all homosexuals, and were killed by Hitler (Night of the Long Knives) and Nazi laws were passed against homosexuality only after their own outrageous open street sex-orgy parties and pedophilia behavior was being roundly criticized in the German press, thereby threatening Hitler's support base among heterosexuals. Policies of concealment thereafter prevailed.

4) Beyond the suppression of the SA, these laws were rarely enforced, and then only when politically helpful to the Nazi cause.

5) Only a few thousand authentically homosexual men (and no lesbians) were condemned to the death-camps by the Nazis. These were nearly always either political enemies of the Third Reich against whom such charges were a convenient excuse to dispose of them, or passive-receptive homosexual "femmes" -- homosexual men of softer feminine qualities -- and whom the macho leather-clad homosexuals always viewed (along with women) with terrible contempt.

6) The attacks against the Sex-Research Institute of the openly-homosexual and flamboyant pedophile Magnus Hirschfeld, was made to seize and burn his extensive files on the homosexual movement and personalities in Wiemar Germany, which included details on the homosexual and pedophile conduct of top Nazi officials.

7) The swaggering macho muscular nature of the SS and SA units, their overt pedophilia, sadist-masochistic sexual predelictions, their sadistc cruelty against heterosexuals, women, and other cultures not sharing their pathology, is detailed.

GAY ACTIVISM

The authors also chastise modern homosexual activist groups, and homo-sympathetic historians, for widespread distortion of these facts, which are abused to create the false image of homosexuals as "victims" of the Third Reich, comparable to the genocidal attacks against Jews, Gypsies, or Slavs. Their role inside the Third Reich, as partial architects of the Final Solution and other reprehensible Nazi policies, is nearly always never mentioned. Out of this comes a brand of aggressive if not fascist "political correctness" which labels any criticism of organized homosexual or bi-sexual conduct -- even as outrageously pathological as in the "gay" bath-houses, or as seen in things like the Fulsom Street Festival in San Francisco, or the various "Gay Pride" parades, or as advocated by criminal groups like NAMBLA -- as "hate speech", or even "hate crimes".

The book caused a furious reaction within the homosexual activist groups of the West, but no serious scholarly rebuttals. It becomes all the more important for modern times when one considers the widespread sexual pathos within Saharasian cultures, in the Muslim world, where pedophilia and macho-male homosexuality is predominant (though never defined as "homosexuality"), even while softer "femme" homosexuals (and women) can be legally murdered for their independent sexual expression.

SOME CRITICISM

The book's authors are admittedly writing from a Judeo-Christian perspective, and this colors some of their conclusions. They expose the Nazi efforts to construct a "neo-Pagan" religion based upon Germanic tribal folklore and the personality of Adolf Hitler, but there is no clarity about the Christian war and butchery against pre-Christian peoples, or the oftentimes more peaceful character of claimed "pagan" cultures. One also gets the false impression that there was little Christian heterosexual participation in the ascent to Nazi power or in the hatred of Jews, which certainly is not the case. Christian heterosexuals flocked to support Hitler, even if the Nazi leadership was mostly homosexual. Pro-Nazi sentiment and Jew-hatred was being preached, along with anti-heterosexual moralism (out of which comes a lot of disturbed sexual behavior), across Germany for generations before the Nazis appeared on the scene. The Kaiser's war-mongering and Jew-hatred also had similar Christian roots. One only has to review the findings in the book The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism for documentation on that issue, which Christian leaders today have often ignored. [ED. NOTE. Jews like "Popes" author David Kertzer see resistance to banker hegemony as anti-Semitism. See Makow, "Real Reason for War and Depression." ]

-------------------

If one can say that only a few thousand homosexuals died in the death-camps, it is also equally true, that only a few thousand German Christian leaders dared to stand up to the Third Reich, against their larger war-making and "uebermench" agendas. So long as Germany was on the winning side of the bloody shooting war, with more "lebensraum" and French or Polish slaves kidnapped into the fatherland to do the hard back-breaking work, typical German Christian citizens were quite happy to follow Herr Hitler towards the construction of a "Thousand Year Reich" where they could keep their personal boot-heels on other people's necks, homosexual or not.

I give the book 5 stars in spite of this incapacity for self-criticism of the Christian viewpoint, if only because this entire subject has not been subjected to the open review and scholarly discussion it deserves. The book may serve this purpose, to open up such a discussion, assuming it is not simply hammered out of existence by the angry factions of the homosexual-rights movement. If that happens, it would only tend to affirm the authors claims.
---

[accuracy]

Shimon Peres addresses Reichstag as world marks Holocaust Memorial Day

Israeli president becomes first to break tradition of German leaders travelling to Israel on day of remembrance

Wednesday 27 January 2010

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/1/27/1264616794105/Israels-President-Shimon--001.jpg
The Israeli president, Shimon Peres, addresses the Reichstag in Berlin on Holocaust Memorial Day. Photograph: Fabrizio Bensch/Reuters

The significance of the occasion could not have been overstated – and it was not lost on the 622 politicians gathered in the Reichstag, a symbol of postwar transparency and democracy.

Today, Shimon Peres became the first Israeli president to choose Holocaust Remembrance Day to address the nation responsible for the murder of six million Jews on what was described as a "groundbreaking occasion" in both Jerusalem and Berlin.

Traditionally, German leaders have travelled to Israel on this day, the anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz concentration camp by Red Army soldiers, and given speeches in the Knesset which have often been boycotted by Israeli politicians.

This time, it was Peres's chance to use the occasion to address Germany, which is seeking a more intense relationship with Israel at a time when other countries are becoming more distant towards it.

German commentators said it was significant that the country's chancellor, Angela Merkel, and her colleagues had greeted Peres with kisses and hugs at a time when Israeli leaders are getting increasingly chilly receptions elsewhere.

At times during his 30-minute speech, the 86-year-old, who was wearing a skullcap, reduced some parliamentarians to tears with his personal account of the Holocaust.

At other moments, they clapped enthusiastically, bringing to life a parliament in which business is usually conducted in a manner as staid and dull as its largely grey interior.

His words – a mixture of emotion and diplomacy – flowed as he drew parallels between the dangers of the regime in Tehran and the Nazi dictatorship, and referred to Germany's moral duty, as the country that once tried to destroy the Jews, to protect Israel from outside attack.

Speaking in Hebrew in an address broadcast live on television and radio, Peres recalled saying farewell to his grandfather before he, as a child, was sent by train to Israel to escape the Nazi troops approaching his hometown, Wiszniewo, in Belarus.

"I remember his last words to me, instructing me: 'My boy, always stay a Jew'. The locomotive whistled and the train pulled away ... it was the last time that I saw him."

As the Nazis marched into Wiszniewo, Peres said, "they ordered all Jews [including his grandparents] to gather in the Synagogue ... the doors were sealed from the outside and the wooden building was set alight, and the only thing that was left of the whole community were red-hot ashes and smoke."

He said Holocaust Remembrance Day "not only represents a memorial day for the victims, not only the pangs of conscience of humankind in the face of the incomprehensible atrocity that took place, but also of the tragedy that derived from the procrastination in taking action".

In a reference to Iran and its threats towards Israel, he added: "Never again ignore bloodthirsty dictators, hiding behind demagogical masks, who utter murderous slogans.

"The threats to annihilate a people and a nation are voiced in the shadow of weapons of mass destruction, which are held by irresponsible hands."

Earlier during his three-day visit, Peres visited platform 17 of Grunewald station, in Berlin, from which thousands of Jews were deported to concentration camps.

Laying a wreath with Peres, the German president, Horst Köhler, stressed the "unique relationship" between Germany and Israel, saying: "The responsibility resulting from the Shoah is and remains part of the German identity".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/27/shimon-peres-holocaust-memorial-day

[accuracy]

The Holocaust Backfires


By Gilad Atzmon
1-27-10

http://www.rense.com/general89/holcaust%20backfires.jpg

"Ynet reports:" Peres in Berlin, Netanyahu in Auschwitz, Lieberman in Budapest and Edelstein at the UN headquarters in New York all plan to attack the Goldstone report into the Gaza war on International Holocaust Day this Wednesday.

Israel's political echelon will once again try to divert attention from the fact that the Israeli crime is beyond comparison.

Israeli Propaganda Minister Edelstein told Ynet before leaving for New York. "The connection between the Goldstone Report and the international Holocaust memorial day is not an easy thing". He is indeed correct. The true interpretation of the Goldstone report is that Israelis are the Nazis of our time. "We must learn the lessons from what happened" Says Edelstein, "then too, those who yelled out were told that Hitler is a clown and that all the gloomy predictions of the 1930s were nonsense."

Someone should advise the Israeli Propaganda man that by now no one regards mass murderer Barak, Nuclear enthusiast Peres, warmonger Livni or ultra racist Lieberman as clowns. We respect them for what they are. Yet, we prefer to see them locked behind bars.

In fact, those world leaders around the world who bowed to Jewish pressure and made the Holocaust into an international memorial day must have been convinced that the Holocaust carries a universal message against oppression and racism. They were actually correct, if the holocaust has any universal and ethical meaning, stopping the 'Jews only state' and bringing its criminal political and military leaders to justice is the true interpretation of the lesson of the Holocaust.

Propaganda Minister Edelstein added "on the Holocaust memorial day of all days, which also marks the battle against global anti-Semitism, we must discuss this connection, because today the soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces are accused of harvesting organs and murdering children". The Israelis better internalise that the truth of Israeli brutality is now common knowledge. IDF mass murder of children, elders and women is part of our collective memory. The Israeli institutional involvement in organ harvesting is also well documented and an accepted fact.

Minister Edelstein is wrong when he argues that "After World War II and the establishment of the State of Israel, anti-Semitism is not directed at Jews but at Israel and the Israelis. The Goldstone Report, the publications in Sweden about organ harvesting and similar reports, are simply a type of anti-Semitism." Edelstein is wrong because all the accusations against Israel are well grounded. Furthermore, the opposition to Israel, its Jewish lobbies and Jewish power in general is politically orientated rather than racially motivated.

In the wake of the 'International Holocaust Memorial Day' I will say it loudly and openly. To oppose the Jewish state and Jewish nationalism is the true meaning of the memory of the Holocaust. To say NO to Israel is to say NO to racism. This is what ethics and universalism are all about.

http://www.rense.com/general89/holo.htm

[consciousness]

Holocaust remembrance crap! :mad:

[stopthemadness]

What about the Armenian genocide that was carried out by Jews against the Armenians?

Nobody's allowed to remember that one are they?

[meksar]

All i will say is this if the Nazi's really wanted to murder "6 million Jews" they would have done what the Jewish Bolsheviks did in Communist Russia, put bullets in the back of peoples head instead of going through the trouble of building "gas chambers". Ironically that was a real holocaust and society thinks that people wearing CCCP symbols are okay but wearing Nazis symbols is a unspeakable evil. They have control of the banks, governments, religions, media, education and most importantly peoples minds and thoughts.

Round-up and arrest ALL the Zionist terrorist scumbags, the HoloHOAX promoters, the Crypto judges & politicians, confiscate their assets ( to repay the innocent victims of extortion & jewish atrocities which the holocaust is designed to hide). I will leave it to the people what to do with them afterwards lets make some "lampshades" and "soap" maybe.

[stopthemadness]

I will leave it to the people what to do with them afterwards lets make some "lampshades" and "soap" maybe.

While your anger is warranted, we must not lower ourselves to their standards. Revenge will be carried out under the Laws of Karma.

How many innocent Germans were railroaded at the phoney Nuremberg trials (of course orchestrated by Zionists)? Let us not use bottom-feeders as our role models for revenge.

[meksar]

While your anger is warranted, we must not lower ourselves to their standards. Revenge will be carried out under the Laws of Karma.

How many innocent Germans were railroaded at the phoney Nuremberg trials (of course orchestrated by Zionists)? Let us not use bottom-feeders as our role models for revenge.

The Zionists are hypocrites and liars of the worst kind, they want everyone to feel sorry for them and their hoax, if you point out their hidden genocidal tendencies they will "anti-Semite" you very quickly. Lock these bloodsucking parasites up and throw away the key is what i say, the more we conform to our own persecution the worse it will get.

[accuracy]

FLASHBACK - The Anne Frank Diary Fraud

Posted 22/02/2006

by Brian Harring – TBR News.org


Introduction – Rixon Stewart February 22, 2006

In today’s London Times Daniel Finkelstien reflects on David Irving’s sentencing and asks: “The test that David Irving set me: do I really believe in the power of truth?”

The answer to that is an emphatic no. If anything Finkelstien is working in the opposite direction. This becomes apparent half-way through the article when he writes: “With her own eyes, my mother saw Anne Frank arrive in Belsen (she knew the family), yet still Irving and people like him contend that Frank’s story is fake.”

The Anne Frank story may not be an outright fake but as Brian Harring reveals in the article below, it is an elaborate piece of story telling. However, the fact that Finkelstien uses it to condemn Irving says all there is to say about his detractors and Finkelsteim’s belief in the “power of truth.”

So we should be wary when Finkelstien concludes: “no David Irving should not be in jail. We can do better than that. I wish I could tell you that the Irving trial is the only way in which my belief in the power of truth is being tested.”

Here Finkelstiem’s apparent balance and restaint is being used as a ruse to further beguile the reader into believing his deceit. Just as the Anne Frank story was contrived, so Finkelstiem’s article is little more than fiction and his concern for the "truth" an attempt to bolster its credibility.

In fact the Times itself has become a Zionist propaganda mouthpiece that often resorts to lies to make its point. Last year it described Israel Shamir, a former Israeli paratrooper now a writer and political activist as “a Swedish-domiciled anti-Semite also known as Jöran Jermas”. Now, as revealed below, it uses an proven fake to bolster the case against Historical Revisionists.


The Anne Frank Diary Fraud
by Brian Harring – TBR News.org

When Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin, she did so prompted by the highest of motives. Yet she, herself, relates the incident that when she first met Abraham Lincoln in 1863, he commented "So you are the little woman who wrote the book that made this great war!"

Few will deny that the printed word in this instance fanned the flames of passion which brought about one of the bloodiest and saddest wars of American history, with brother sometimes pitted against brother, father against son. Perhaps if there had been less appeal to the emotions the problems might have resolved themselves through peaceful means. However, almost universally read at the time, few people then recognized the potency of one small book or the injustice done the South through its wide acceptance as a fair picture of slavery in the South.

Propaganda, as a weapon of psychological warfare is in even wider use today. Communists were masters of the art. Often they used the direct approach; just as often they employed diversion tactics to focus the eyes and ears of the world in directions other than where the real conflict was being waged. For many years, through propaganda alone, the dead threat of Hitler and Nazism had been constantly held before the public in a diversion maneuver to keep attention from being directed against the live threat of Stalin, Khrushchev and Communism.

Such has been the effect, if not the deliberate intention of many who have promoted its distribution, of a book of popular appeal-The Diary Of Anne Frank. It has been sold to the public as the actual diary of a young Jewish girl who died in a Nazi concentration camp after two years of abuse and horror.

Many Americans have read the book or seen the movie version, and have been deeply moved by the real life drama it claims to present. But have we been misled in the belief that Anne Frank actually wrote this diary? And if so. should an author be permitted to produce a work of fiction and sell it to the world as fact, particularly one of such tremendous emotional appeal?

The Swedish journal Frio Ord published two articles commenting on The Diary of Anne Frank. A condensation of these articles appeared in the April 15, 1959 issue of Economic Council Letter, as follows:

“History has many examples of myths that live a longer and richer life than truth. and may become more effective than truth.

The Western world has for some years hem made aware of a young Jewish girl through the medium of what purports to he her personally written story, "Anne Frank's Diary." Any informed literary inspection of this book has shown it to have been impossible as the work of a teenager.

A noteworthy decision of the New York Supreme Court confirms this point of view, in that the well known American writer, Meyer Levin, has been awarded $50.000 to be paid him by the father of Anne Frank as an honorarium for Levin's work on the "Anne Frank Diary."

Mr. Frank, in Switzerland, had promised to pay to prominent Jewish author, Meyer Levin. not less than $50,000 because he had used the literary creation of author Levin in toto, and represented it to his publisher and the public as his late daughter’s original work.

Inquiry of the County Clerk. New York County. as to the facts of the case referred to in the Swedish press, brought a reply on April 23, 1962, giving the name of a New York firm of lawyers as “attorneys .far the respondent.” Reference was to ”The Dairy of Anne Frank 2203-58.”

A letter to this firm brought a response on May 4, 1962 that “Although we represent Mr. Levin in other matters, we had nothing to do with the Anne Frank case.”

On May 7, 1962, came the following reply from a member of a firm of New York lawyers to whom the original inquiry had been forwarded:

“I was the attorney for Meyer Levin in his action against Otto Frank and others. It is true that a jury awarded Mr. Levin $50,000 in damages, as indicated in your letter. That award was later set aside by the trial justice. Hon. Samuel C. Coleman. on the ground that the damages had not been proved in the manner required by law. The action was subsequently settled between the litigating parties, while an appeal from Judge Coleman’s decision was pending.

I am afraid that the case itself is not officially reported, so far as the trial itself, or even Judge Coleman’s decision, is concerned. Certain procedural matters were reported. both in 141 New York Supplement. Second Series 170. and in 5 Second Series 181. The correct file number in the New York County Clerk‘s office is 2241-1956 and the file is probably a large and full one which must include Judge Coleman’s decision. Unfortunately, our file is in storage and 1 cannot locate a copy of that decision as it appeared in the New York Law Journal early in the year 1960.”

The Diary Of Anne Frank was first published in 1952 and immediately became a bestseller. It has been republished in paperback, 40 printings. It is impossible to estimate how many people have been touched and aroused by the movie production.

Why has the trial involving the father of Anne Frank, bearing directly on the authenticity of this book, never been "officially reported"? In royalties alone, Otto Frank has profited richly from the sale of this book, purporting to depict the tragic life of his daughter. But is it fact, or is it fiction? Is it truth or is it propaganda? Or is it a combination of all of these? And to what degree does it wrongfully appeal to the emotions through a misrepresentation as to its origin?

School publications for years have recommended this book for young people, presenting it as the work of Anne Frank. Advertising in advance of the movie showing has played up the “factual” nature of the drama being presented. Do not writers of such editorials and promoters of such advertising, “fan the flames of hate” they rightly profess to deplore?

Many American Jews were shocked at the handling of the Eichmann case, the distortions contained in the book Exodus and its movie counterpart, but their protests have had little publicity outside of their own organ, Issues, by the American Council for Judaism. Others who have expressed the same convictions have been charged with anti-Semitism. Yet it is to be noted that both Otto Frank and his accuser Meyer Levin, were Jewish, so a similar charge would hardly be applicable in pursuing this subject to an honest conclusion..

File number 2241-1956 in the New York County Clerk’s office should be opened to the public view and its content thoroughly publicized. Misrepresentation, exaggeration, and falsification has too often colored the judgment of good citizens. If Mr. Frank used the work of Meyer Levin to present to the world what we have been led to believe is the literary work of his daughter, wholly or in part, then the truth should be exposed.

To label fiction as fact is never justified nor should it be condoned.

Since actual period documentation does not exist in support of the Holocaust myth, it has always been incumbent on its supporters to create it.

Not only is the “Anne Frank” diary now considered to be a fake, so also is “The Painted Bird” by Jerzy Kosinski. This book, which is a mass of pornographic and sadistic imagery which, had it not been taken so seriously by the Jewish community, would be merely the pathetic manifestation of a self-serving and very sick person.

This was duly exposed as a shabby, though much revered (by the Jewish community) and quoted, fraud. When this was exposed, Kosinski committed suicide. Later, in Kosinski’s footsteps we find the next fiction entitled “Fragments, ” by a Swiss Protestant named Bruno Dosseker who spent the war in Switzerland as a young child. Dosseker posed as a very young Baltic Jewish concentration camp inmate named Binjamin Wilkomerski. This work consists of allegedly fragmented “memories” and is very difficult to read

Dosseker became the poster boy for the Holocaust supporters and was lionized by the international Jewish community, reaping considerable profit and many in-house awards for his wonderful and moving portrayal of German brutality and sexual sadism.

Another book, allegedly by a Hungarian doctor, concerning his deportation from Budapest in 1944 and subsequent journey by “Death Train” to Auschwitz is another fraud. There was never such a doctor in Hungary during the period involved and the alleged route of the train from Budapest to Auschwitz did not exist.

These sort of pathetic refugees from the back wards seem to be drawn to the Holocausters…and they to them. There are now “Holocaust Survivors” as young as thirty which is an interesting anomaly because the last concentration camp was closed in 1945. Perhaps they consider the last frenzied spring sale at Bloomingdale’s department store to be what they survived.

Next we can expect to see a book based on twenty-seven volumes of secret diaries prepared on a modern word processor within the current year by an alleged inhabitant of the Warsaw ghetto, describing the Nazi slaughter of tens of millions of weeping Jews by means that would shame a modern African state.

And, predictably, the publication of these howlers would be greeted with joy on the part of the fund raisers and fanatics, praised in the columns of the New York Times and scripted by Steven Spielberg for a heart-wrenching and guaranteed Oscar-winning film.

Hundreds of thousands of DVD copies will be donated to American schools and the Jewish community will demand that subservient executive and legislative bodies in America create a Day of Atonement as a National Holiday to balance the terrible Christian Christmas and the wickedly Satanic Halloween.

Conservationists must hate these books because so many otherwise beautiful and useful trees are slaughtered for their preparation

Insofar as the Anne Frank diary is concerned, herewith is some background on Anne Frank, her family and her alleged Diary.

The Franks were upper class German Jews, both coming from wealthy families. Otto and his siblings lived on the exclusive Meronstrasse in Frankfurt. Otto attended a private prep school, and also attended the Lessing Gymnasium, the most expensive school in Frankfurt.

Otto attended Heidelberg University. After graduation he left for a long vacation in England.

In 1909, the 20 year old Otto went to New York City where he stayed with his relatives, the Oppenheimers.

In 1925 Anne's parents married and settled in Frankfurt, Germany. Anne was born in 1929. The Frank's family business included banking, management of the springs at Bad Soden and the manufacture of cough drops. Anne's mother, the former Edith Holländer, was the daughter of a manufacturer.

In 1934, Otto and his family moved to Amsterdam where he bought a spice business, Opekta, which manufactures Pectin used in making household jellies.

On May 1940, after the Germans occupied Amsterdam Otto remained in that city while his mother and brother moved to Switzerland. Otto remained in Amsterdam where his firm did business with the German Wehrmacht. From 1939 to 1944, Otto sold Opeka, and Pectin, to the German army. Pectin was a food preservative, and a anti infectant balm for wounds and as a thickener for raising blood volume in blood transfusions. Pectin was used as an emulsifier for petroleum, gelatized gasoline for fire bombing. By supplying the Wehrmacht, Otto Frank became, in the eyes of the Dutch, a Nazi collaborator.

On July 6, 1942 Otto moved the Frank family into the so-called 'Secret Annex'. The annex is a three story, mostly glass townhouse that shares a garden park with fifty other apartments.

While he was allegedly in hiding, Otto Frank still managed his business, going downstairs to his office at night and on weekends. Anne and the others would go to Otto's office and listen to radio broadcasts from England.

The purported diary begins on June 12, 1942, and runs to December 5,1942 . It consists of a book that is six by four by a quarter inches. In addition to this first diary, Anne supplemented it with personal letters. Otto said Anne heard Gerrit Bolkestein in a broadcast say: ~ "Keep a diary, and he would publish after the war", and that's why Anne’s father claimed she rewrote her diaries second time in 1944.

In this second edition, the new writer changed, rearranged and occasionally combined entries of various dates.

When Anne allegedly rewrote the diaries, she used a ball point pen, which did not exist in 1945, and the book took on an extremely high literary standard, and read more like a professional documentary than a child's diary. In Anne's second edition her writing style, and handwriting, suddenly matured.

The actual diary of Anne Frank contained only about 150 notes, according to The New York Times, of October 2 ,1955.

In 1944, German authorities in occupied Holland determined that Otto Frank had been swindling then via his extensive and very lucrative Wehrmacht contracts. The German police then raided his apartment attic, and the eight Jews were sent to Westerbork work camp and forced to perform manual labor .Otto himself was sent to Auschwitz.. Anne, her sister Margot, and her mother, subsequently died of typhus in another camp.

In 1945, after being liberated from German custody, Otto returned to Amsterdam, where he claimed he found Anne's diary cleverly hidden in the Annex's rafters. However, another version has a Dutch friend, Meip Geis finding Anne's diary of fictional events, which she then gave to Otto Frank.

Otto took what he claimed were Anne's letters and notes, edited them into a book, which he then gave to his secretary, Isa Cauvern, to review. Isa Cauvern and her husband Albert Cauvern , a writer, authored the first diary.

Questions were raised by some publishers as to whether Isa and Albert Cauvern, who assisted Otto in typing out the work used the original diaries or whether they took it directly from Mr. Frank's personal transcription.

American author, Meyer Levin wrote the third and final edition

Meyer Levin was an author, and journalist, who lived for many years in France, where he met Otto Frank around 1949.

Born in 1905, Meyer Levin was raised in the section of Chicago notoriously known in the days of gangster warfare as the "Bloody Nineteen Ward." At the age of eighteen he worked as a reporter for the Chicago Daily News and during the next four years became an increasingly frequent contributor to the national literary magazine, The Menorah Journal. In 1929 he published THE REPORTER, which was the first of his sixteen novels.

In 1933 Levin became an assistant editor and film critic at the newly-created Esquire Magazine where he remained until 1939.

Perhaps his best-known work is COMPULSION (1956), chronicling the Leopold and Loeb case and hailed by critics as one of the greatest books of the decade. The compelling work was the first "documentary novel" or "non-fiction novel.”

After the enormous success of COMPULSION, Levin embarked on a trilogy of novels dealing with the Holocaust. The first, EVA (1959) was the story of a Jewish girl's experiences throughout the war and her adjustment to life after the concentration camps. This was followed by THE FANATIC (1963), which told the hypnotic story of a Jewish poet dealing with the moral questions that arose from his ordeal at the hands of the Nazis. The last in the triptych, THE STRONGHOLD (1965), is a thriller set in a concentration camp during the last days of the war.

At the outset of World War II Levin made documentary films for the US Office of War Information and later worked in France as a civilian expert in the Psychological Warfare Division. He eventually became a war correspondent for the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, with the special mission of uncovering the fate of Jewish concentration camp prisoners. Levin took his role very seriously, sometimes entering concentration camps ahead of the tanks of the liberating forces in order to compile lists of the survivors.

After the war Levin went to Palestine and turned his attention again to the motion picture camera. His film MY FATHER'S HOUSE told the story of a child survivor searching for his family in Palestine. He wrote this story as a novel as well and the book was published in 1947.

Levin also joined the Hagana underground and helped smuggle Jews from the interior of Poland to Palestine, then basically an Arab country under the control of the British..

In 1951 Levin came upon a copy of the French edition of the Anne Frank diary He made a number of attempts to have the work published in English, and conceived it as a play and film. When the diary finally found an American publisher, his play was accepted for production but then suddenly barred, ostensibly for being "unstageworthy," and another writer's version was commissioned.

Levin fought for the rights to perform his version of the play, claiming that the real reason the producers refused to stage his work was because they thought it "too Jewish." He saw the suppression of the play as an extension of the Stalinist attack on Jewish culture and, outraged that even Anne Frank could be censored, he took the producers to court and began an agonizing, prolonged struggle that dragged on for years.

Levin eventually won a jury award against the producers for appropriation of ideas, but the bitterness of the trial made him many enemies in the Jewish and literary communities.

Although Levin's version of the play is still banned by the owners of the dramatic rights, underground productions of the work are frequently staged throughout the world.

Meyer Levin died in 1981

Levin rewrote the various post-war treatments of the Anne Frank diary with an eye toward a Broadway production, but Otto decided to cut him out, refusing to honor his contract or pay him for his work. Meyer Levin sued Otto Frank for his writings, and the New York Supreme court awarded Meyer Levin $50,000, for his 'intellectual work'.

In 1980, Otto sued two Germans, Ernst Romer and Edgar Geiss, for distributing literature denouncing the diary as a forgery. The trial produced a study by official German handwriting experts that determined everything in the diary was written by the same person. The person that wrote the diaries had used a ballpoint pen throughout. Unfortunately for Herr Frank, the ballpoint pen was not available until 1951 whereas Anne was known to have died of typhus in 1944.

Because of the lawsuit in a German court, the German state forensic bureau, the Bundes Kriminal Amt [BKA] forensically examined the manuscript, which at that point in time consisted of three hardbound notebooks and 324 loose pages bound in a fourth notebook, with special forensic equipment.

The results of tests, performed at the BKA laboratories, showed that “significant” portions of the work, especially the fourth volume, were written with a ballpoint pen. Since ballpoint pens were not available before 1951, the BKA concluded those sections must have been added subsequently.

In the end, BKA clearly determined that none of the diary handwriting matched known examples of Anne's handwriting. The German magazine, Der Spiegel, published an account of this report alleging that (a) some editing postdated 1951; (b) an earlier expert had held that all the writing in the journal was by the same hand; and thus (c) the entire diary was a postwar fake.

The BKA information, at the urgent request of the Jewish community, was redacted at the time but later inadvertently released to researchers in the United States.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4197

[accuracy]

How many other Holocausts have occurred and why are they not remembered?


Thursday, 28 January 2010

http://www.paltelegraph.com/images/stories/groupstatue.jpg

USA, January 28,2010 (Pal Telegraph) -Today is UN International Holocaust Remembrance Day, but why do we only remember this one event, when so many other holocausts have taken place? Think Armenia, Rwanda, the Congo, Cambodia, Sudan, Iraq, etc. Why such a high-profile focus on this one holocaust, while the many other holocausts never get a mention?

I myself have always held great respect for the suffering of the Jewish people during the war, and many times have reflected on some of the locations where they were publically executed. I also allocated a special time to visit the Ann Frank house in Amsterdam on one of my many trips to the Netherlands.

But it seems that whenever there is any incident or conflict concerning Israel, we are almost forcibly reminded of the sad events that took place those many years ago. It is used as a sort of diversionary tactic, as if to say "hey, listen we are only protecting our existence after what happened to our people during the Holocaust." It's as if this is an excuse for the Israelis to do whatever they want today, because they were the victims of such a terrible crime during WW2. This mindset is terribly wrong and it is time to bring some logic back into the world.

It's perfectly natural for every nation to remember its dead or to have a day of remembrance for such events. But to have this particular Holocaust rammed down our throats, continuously, day after day, is not only an abuse of the very principal of remembrance, but also a manipulation of current politics, economics and military actions throughout the world.


http://www.paltelegraph.com/images/stories/013-rwanda20genocide20crosses20in20kigali1.jpg

Let's take a closer look at some facts: As we all know, around 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust -- not just by direct execution, but also from malnutrition, hypothermia, diseases,etc. Compare those numbers to the Democratic Republic of Congo, where around 5.4 million have died as of 2006. And the conflict there is still ongoing. In other countries in the region, the numbers of dead due to conflict (directly or indirectly) also are high: Rwanda, about 1 million; Sudan, 2-3 million; Somalia, at least 1 million; Cambodia, almost 2 million; Vietnam, 2 million; and, more recently, in Iraq, more than 1 million. Afghanistan is showing the same trend.

Let's also reflect on the two world wars. An estimated 1 million people were killed in Russia during WW!, and 10 million more in WW2. In total, the number of people killed in WW2 was 60 million. Obviously, we could spend every day, every week, every month creating a Holocaust theme and remembrance day for those countries, but we don't. However, for some strange reason we are told repeatedly about "The Holocaust" as if the one that occurred for the Jews is the only one that counts.

One must ask the Israelis if their holocaust justifies the genocide they are visiting on the Palestinian people?

While talking of genocide, I would also wish to point out that the US, UK, NATO and IOF forces are using WMDs -- weapons that contain uranium components. They were first used by the IOF in the Yom Kippur War in October 1973, and they have been used on a regular basis since that time. They have been used extensively in the Balkans, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Lebanon and Gaza, and I believed they are now being used in Somalia and Yemen.

In using these weapons, we are inflicting another, indirect genocide on millions of people -- not only in the areas of conflict but also in adjacent countries. It is a genocide that will reveal itself slowly, through the contamination from radioactive materials carried via the wind. Our own troops have been exposed as well. The respective leaders and governments that allow their usage must also be classified as war criminals.

What I also find fascinating is my discovery of a poster outside an Islamic NGO promoting this special day, along with an exhibition inside that remembers the victims of the Holocaust. I know that pressure was applied to this NGO to participate in this remembrance. This is very wrong.

So, on this UN International Holocaust Remembrance Day, I would hope that people all over the world also give some thought to those millions of others who have died under similar conditions who do not receive the same global attention. They also under terrible oppression and in some cases just as brutally. I would urge all Israelis or any Jewish citizen to visit the DRC, Rwanda or Cambodia, etc. and try to understand that what happened in Europe has been repeated all over the world. In fact, it is still going on today, to the Palestinians. Is there really any difference?

Peter Eyre - Middle East Consultant
http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/3843-how-many-other-holocaust-occurred-and-why-are-they-not-remembered

[elcribbo]

What about the Armenian genocide that was carried out by Jews against the Armenians?

Nobody's allowed to remember that one are they?

The Armenian genocide was carried out by Muslims, not Jews. Under Ottoman rule Jews were second class citizens, not the ruling elite.

Please restrict your posts to threads where you've got a fucking clue what you're banging on about.

[elcribbo]

Holocaust remembrance crap! :mad:

Yes, but as someone once said, if we don't remember the mistakes of our history we are doomed to repeat them.

Unfortunately neo-nazis and Hitler apologists like yourself, meksar and accuracy make that risk much more likely and give us all the more reason to remember.

[dogsmilk]

All i will say is this if the Nazi's really wanted to murder "6 million Jews" they would have done what the Jewish Bolsheviks did in Communist Russia, put bullets in the back of peoples head instead of going through the trouble of building "gas chambers". Ironically that was a real holocaust and society thinks that people wearing CCCP symbols are okay but wearing Nazis symbols is a unspeakable evil. They have control of the banks, governments, religions, media, education and most importantly peoples minds and thoughts.

Round-up and arrest ALL the Zionist terrorist scumbags, the HoloHOAX promoters, the Crypto judges & politicians, confiscate their assets ( to repay the innocent victims of extortion & jewish atrocities which the holocaust is designed to hide). I will leave it to the people what to do with them afterwards lets make some "lampshades" and "soap" maybe.

Apparently you haven't noticed the Nazis started by shooting Jews (Shootings make up quite a chunk of the Holocaust; you might be aware of that if you weren't so astonishingly ignorant).
Constantly shooting men, women and children in cold blood is not good for the mental health of the soldiers doing it. Gassings were more 'clinical'.
It's actually easier in terms of efficiency and secrecy to ship people to a place where they are killed quickly in large numbers. Save a bit of ammo too I reckon.

Laurence Rees writes regarding NKVD killings of Poles at Kalinin prison, one of the massacres under the Katyn umberella, that they led the Poles in one by one to shoot them in the back of the head.

The first transport of Poles from the nearby Ostashkov camp arrived at Kalinin prison in April. 'I should tell you that the first night they brought three hundred people', revealed Tokarev. 'This was too much. The night was short and we had to work only at night. Then they started to bring two hundred and fifty people a night'.


Yet elsewhere they were shooting them in groups. Surely that's more efficient? Why would you lead men in one by one taking hours?
Employing Meksar logic, I can say because I think that's a poor way of going about mass killing, there is therefore a big hole in the 'official story' of Katyn. Apparently, Katyn deniers do actually use that exact, shit-thick 'denier logic'.

Do me a favour, Meksar - try to have a fucking clue what you're talking about and learn the blatantly obvious - people don't always act how you think they should have.

phoney Nuremberg trials (of course orchestrated by Zionists)?

I think the best way of stopping the madness would be you having some kind of clue about what you're talking about.

Jesus, do you people take pride in being stupid?

Accuracy - his user name as ironic as ever - apparently can't even check simple facts like the legal shennanigans with Levin re Anne Frank were about the stage play, not the diary itself. It's not difficult to find this out.

Gullible, tabloid conspiracy fodder. You may as well just read the sun.

[dogsmilk]

Oh and by the way - people wearing CCCP on their clothes is the same as wearing Che Guevara t-shirts - since communism is moribund, such imagery has become ironic or faux-radical. It's simply appropriation of such imagery for a consumer market, an ironic reversal of what it was supposed to be against. I was in a shop a while ago and saw an overpriced t-shirt with a big anarchy symbol on it.
It's like buying 'info-gear' off Alex Jones - something to make you feel cool.

Nazi chic has had its moments.

http://www.punk77.co.uk/graphics/nancy/nancysid.jpg

[stopthemadness]

The Armenian genocide was carried out by Muslims, not Jews. Under Ottoman rule Jews were second class citizens, not the ruling elite.

Please restrict your posts to threads where you've got a fucking clue what you're banging on about.

Oh dear. I wish you well in your ignorance friend.

[dogsmilk]

Oh dear. I wish you well in your ignorance friend.

In other words you've read one of those 'teh jooos were behind it' websites, drooled credulously in wonder and lapped up every word.

Well done.

[elcribbo]

Oh dear. I wish you well in your ignorance friend.

Please explain to me how the Jews were responsible for the Armenian genocide. I will then explain to you how you're the puppet of neo-Nazis, whose bullshit stories you lap up because, well, you just don't like Jews.

[stopthemadness]

Tim,

I understand the reactionary emotional response to this topic. If I were Jewish I would be terribly defensive as well.

However, it is already carefully documented that Jewish operatives within the Ottoman Empire orchestrated the genocide against the Armenians. The Israeli government itself has acknowledged this.

I wish that I had time to do a few hours of research for you right now. But I'm also trying to stop the destruction of my country. So I need to spend the rest of the day circulating my petition.

But I will try to provide you some additional information if I have the time tonight. If you are anxious to "debunk" me then please do your own research. You might be surprised what you find.

[dogsmilk]

I wish that I had time to do a few hours of research for you right now. But I'm also trying to stop the destruction of my country

I'm sure we'll read about your heroic efforts in the papers.

http://inplacenews.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/wonderwoman.jpg

Stopthemadness spotted saving the country (from Jews) this afternoon

[rodin]

All i will say is this if the Nazi's really wanted to murder "6 million Jews" they would have done what the Jewish Bolsheviks did in Communist Russia, put bullets in the back of peoples head instead of going through the trouble of building "gas chambers". Ironically that was a real holocaust and society thinks that people wearing CCCP symbols are okay but wearing Nazis symbols is a unspeakable evil. They have control of the banks, governments, religions, media, education and most importantly peoples minds and thoughts.

Round-up and arrest ALL the Zionist terrorist scumbags, the HoloHOAX promoters, the Crypto judges & politicians, confiscate their assets ( to repay the innocent victims of extortion & jewish atrocities which the holocaust is designed to hide). I will leave it to the people what to do with them afterwards lets make some "lampshades" and "soap" maybe.

I agree we should purge the criminals from power. A better punishment for the guilty I have devised. While pesent prisons are a racket where it costs an improbable amount per prisoner incarceration, a much cheaper alternative is available

Purpose built unsupervised secure building. Food and cleaning materials passed in at one end, the interns have to look after their selves. Any funny business (like attacking an inmate) results in a downgraded existence possibly life solitary

While the permises are not supervised internally, every angle is covered by webcam

Simples

There might even be a parole board.

all of us

[dogsmilk]

I agree we should purge the criminals from power. A better punishment for the guilty I have devised. While pesent prisons are a racket where it costs an improbable amount per prisoner incarceration, a much cheaper alternative is available

Purpose built unsupervised secure building. Food and cleaning materials passed in at one end, the interns have to look after their selves. Any funny business (like attacking an inmate) results in a downgraded existence possibly life solitary

While the permises are not supervised internally, every angle is covered by webcam

Simples

There might even be a parole board.

all of us

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/europe/auschwitz/slideshow/media/4auschwitz08.jpg

rodin's dream comes true

[tinyint]

In my opinion, it is a disgrace and gigantic manipulation to have a holo rememberance day. It is a farce.
Almost nobody has been allowed to investigate into the alledged crime, and figures constantly decreased at the course of time.

Meanwhile, huge crimes a being commited by people who really celebrate their 'victims role' and use it a a guise to do ethnical cleansing and collective punishment.

Simply disgusting, a mad world we live in.

BUT white stays white, even after constantly repeating the dogma that white has become black.

There are no better or privileged dead!!!

I would agree about a general WWII victims rememberance day though.

This dogma is being falling apart and with it the lying house of cards, since it does not prevent similar things to happen as we daily can watch and read about.

So stop the BS and wallowing in guilt, there are more urgent problems today, than keeping us trapped in the past.

The now counts.

[dogsmilk]

In my opinion, it is a disgrace and gigantic manipulation to have a holo rememberance day. It is a farce

Almost nobody has been allowed to investigate into the alledged crime, and figures constantly decreased at the course of time.

Meanwhile, huge crimes a being commited by people who really celebrate their 'victims role' and use it a a guise to do ethnical cleansing and collective punishment.

Simply disgusting, a mad world we live in.

BUT white stays white, even after constantly repeating the dogma that white has become black.

There are no better or privileged dead!!!

I would agree about a general WWII victims rememberance day though.

This dogma is being falling apart and with it the lying house of cards, since it does not prevent similar things to happen as we daily can watch and read about.

So stop the BS and wallowing in guilt, there are more urgent problems today, than keeping us trapped in the past.

The now counts.

I think people could debate whether there should be a Holocaust remembrance day til the cows come home. I wouldn't because I don't think it's very interesting and I don't think the vast majority of the population pay much if any attention.

I'd be very interested for you to substantiate this though -

Almost nobody has been allowed to investigate into the alledged crime

How in God's name did you work that out? Because some crackpots and Nazis have been imprisoned in some countries? They don't 'investigate' anyway. I can think of two deniers that have done anything approaching actual research. Thing is though, if any of that crowd had produced anything that wasn't a joke, it'd stand on its own two feet.

If you don't want to stay trapped in the past, you should have a word with the denier crowd.

[elcribbo]

Tim,

I understand the reactionary emotional response to this topic. If I were Jewish I would be terribly defensive as well.

However, it is already carefully documented that Jewish operatives within the Ottoman Empire orchestrated the genocide against the Armenians. The Israeli government itself has acknowledged this.

I wish that I had time to do a few hours of research for you right now. But I'm also trying to stop the destruction of my country. So I need to spend the rest of the day circulating my petition.

But I will try to provide you some additional information if I have the time tonight. If you are anxious to "debunk" me then please do your own research. You might be surprised what you find.

Firstly, my name isn't Tim. That's the person I quote in my signature. Secondly, I'm not Jewish. Thirdly, a brainwashed anti-semite calling me reactionary is a bit rich.

Like you, I don't have much time tonight (although I have to admit not to saving my country - which country is it you're saving?) but a quick Google has uncovered this serious work of modern history:

THE JEWISH GENOCIDE OF ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS
By Christopher Jon Bjerknes

Obviously a classic tome, it contains chapter titles such as

2.2 Jews Foment Wars of Extermination and Genocidal Revolutions
2.4 Talaat Pasha, Djavid Bey, Ataturk, Etc., Were Jews

3.3 Cabalistic Jews Calling Themselves Christian Condition the British to Assist in Their Own Demise-Rothschild Makes an Open Bid to Become the Messiah
3.5 For Centuries, England is Flooded with Warmongering Zionist Propaganda
3.9 Zionists Develop a Strategy Which Culminates in the Nazis and the Holocaust as Means to Attain the "Jewish State"

I haven't had time to read it yet, but the chapter titles speak volumes. I hope this isn't the 'carefully documented' evidence that the Jews were responsible for the Armenian genocide?

[tinyint]

I think people could debate whether there should be a Holocaust remembrance day til the cows come home. I wouldn't because I don't think it's very interesting and I don't think the vast majority of the population pay much if any attention.

I'd be very interested for you to substantiate this though -

How in God's name did you work that out? Because some crackpots and Nazis have been imprisoned in some countries? They don't 'investigate' anyway. I can think of two deniers that have done anything approaching actual research. Thing is though, if any of that crowd had produced anything that wasn't a joke, it'd stand on its own two feet.

You run your head against a wall with me.

The highlighted statement says it all, I am very immune to official propaganda line.
And no, it does not mean I am a nazi or 'anti-semite', I just engage forced 'truth'. It reminds me of the inquisition in medieval times.

It is not my fault that currently zionist jews are the new nazis of our time.

Can I remind you of much more allied atrocity propaganda, which thankfully have been outdated and disproven?

Truth can shift over night, I experienced that.

Germar Rudolf was no crackpot nazi, he got his task to investigate from R.Süssmuth and N.Augstein.
I think, you are familiar with them.

[elcribbo]

Perhaps a more reliable and less rabid account of the genocide can be found in The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians by Donald Bloxham (Oxford University Press, 2005), which says that many survivors of the genocide "were then subject to enforced conversions to Islam as a means of assimilation to the New Turkey".

Doesn't sound very Jewish, does it?

[dogsmilk]

You run your head against a wall with me.

The highlighted statement says it all, I am very immune to official propaganda line.
And no, it does not mean I am a nazi or 'anti-semite', I just engage forced 'truth'. It reminds me of the inquisition in medieval times.

It is not my fault that currently zionist jews are the new nazis of our time.

Can I remind you of much more allied atrocity propaganda, which thankfully have been outdated and disproven?

Truth can shift over night, I experienced that.

Germar Rudolf was no crackpot nazi, he got his task to investigate from R.Süssmuth and N.Augstein.
I think, you are familiar with them.

As usual, I find your post to be inconsequential ramblings. But if you look into it, you will find Rudolf has given himself away a bit in the past

I just engage forced 'truth'. It reminds me of the inquisition in medieval times.


I don't myself agree with denial laws, but the blunt fact is they've tended to arise in response to neo-Nazis and aren't all that old. As I have said innumerable times, deniers in the UK and US love them because they can play the persecuted martyr while downloading all the denial they like for free. Indeed, if this is such an 'enforced truth', why when I do a google search on something about the Holocaust do I invariably get a bunch of denier sites in the result? Stop spouting bullshit rhetoric. I mean,

official propaganda line.

There is no such thing. Stop saying things just because you think they make you sound cool.

t is not my fault that currently zionist jews are the new nazis of our time.


Again, more automated rhetoric. I'm no fan of Israel myself (can't say I much like Fatah or Hamas either though), but try to get your head round the fact it's a big world that does not revolve around whatever 1930s world Jewish conspiracy propaganda that has been transplanted onto Israel you've filled your head with. Comparing "Zionist Jews" to the Nazis is as retarded as George Bush comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler. It's just propaganda posturing.
Grow up.

[tinyint]

As usual, I find your post to be inconsequential ramblings. But if you look into it, you will find Rudolf has given himself away a bit in the past



I don't myself agree with denial laws, but the blunt fact is they've tended to arise in response to neo-Nazis and aren't all that old. As I have said innumerable times, deniers in the UK and US love them because they can play the persecuted martyr while downloading all the denial they like for free. Indeed, if this is such an 'enforced truth', why when I do a google search on something about the Holocaust do I invariably get a bunch of denier sites in the result? Stop spouting bullshit rhetoric. I mean,



There is no such thing. Stop saying things just because you think they make you sound cool.



Again, more automated rhetoric. I'm no fan of Israel myself (can't say I much like Fatah or Hamas either though), but try to get your head round the fact it's a big world that does not revolve around whatever 1930s world Jewish conspiracy propaganda that has been transplanted onto Israel you've filled your head with. Comparing "Zionist Jews" to the Nazis is as retarded as George Bush comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler. It's just propaganda posturing.
Grow up.

Well, you have your opinion and I have mine.
Isn't that fair enough? :p

You do not have to post further 'proof' of official dogma.
I am surrounded by it around the clock 365 days a year... :rolleyes:

If I would be keen on it, I just needed to switch damn TV on.

I am sick of it.

Again, so you think it is ok to have thought police and according laws? Why is still the need for such 70years after war?
Why not do any international investigation and reopen the whole case, as Mr.Ahmadinedjad asked for, evaluating first time and sort it out once and for all?
Afraid it gonna be a different result than years of forced 'truth'?

Are you just afraid that the hoax crumbles away finally?

Why discrediting all the alternative people who research it?
It is a really twisted logic to think, that an allegded 'nazi' cannot do very good research.

Thank you for your insight in your dogmatic thinking, again. :p

I invite you to germany to get familiar with OFFICIAL PROPAGANDA LINE and DOGMA. You could also sound very cool then. :D

[dogsmilk]

Well, you have your opinion and I have mine.
Isn't that fair enough? :p

Sure.


You do not have to post further 'proof' of official dogma.
I am surrounded by it around the clock 365 days a year... :rolleyes:

If I would be keen on it, I just needed to switch damn TV on.

I am sick of it.

Well I guess it's around a lot right now for obvious reasons, but otherwise you must get a lot more of it on telly where you are. It's all come dine with me and the like here.

Again, so you think it is ok to have thought police and according laws? Why is still the need for such 70years after war?

I specifically said I don't personally approve of the laws.
If your German, I suggest you look back at the context your own law was introduced in.


Why not do any international investigation and reopen the whole case, as Mr.Ahmadinedjad asked for, evaluating first time and sort it out once and for all?
Afraid it gonna be a different result than years of forced 'truth'?

Jesus, are you really so naive you don't know political posturing when you see it?
Why should their be an international investigation? To placate a minority of cranks? You may as well demand an international investigation into the Norman conquest.


Are you just afraid that the hoax crumbles away finally?

Why discrediting all the alternative people who research it?
It is a really twisted logic to think, that an allegded 'nazi' cannot do very good research.

If they did good research it would stand up wouldn't it? Fact is it hasn't and is regarded as a joke.
I'm sure a Stalinist can in principle do good research on Stalin, but ten to one they'll still end up coming out with a load of ideologically fueled apologetics.
Exactly how much research - I mean actual research - do these guys do?


Thank you for your insight in your dogmatic thinking, again. :p

What dogmatic thinking? When I encountered denier claims, I took the trouble to actually read up on a bit of 'official history'. And bugger me, if the deniers didn't routinely lie and distort. Why should I be dogmatic about liars like you obviously are?

I invite you to germany to get familiar with OFFICIAL PROPAGANDA LINE and DOGMA. You could also sound very cool then. :D

I've been to Germany. Very nice country, lovely people. Nobody seemed arsed about the Holocaust. Germany does have some fine Holocaust historians though.
Here in the UK, I can easily access virtually any denier material I like off the net. But studying 'official history' costs a fucking fortune in books and old ones can be hard to get hold of. It's easier to get denier stuff here.

[tinyint]

Sure.
Well I guess it's around a lot right now for obvious reasons, but otherwise you must get a lot more of it on telly where you are. It's all come dine with me and the like here.


Astonishigly, now we come into a real conversation.
Yes, propaganda is all present. Last WE I counted 6 WWII 'documentaries' just by zapping. It is the normal average amount on WE, besides once a day during week.


I specifically said I don't personally approve of the laws.
If your German, I suggest you look back at the context your own law was introduced in.


Well, it is not our law, it is still allied enforced law. STILL!
But you are not completely wrong here, it is our traitor govt consisting of germans, yes. Collaborators.


Jesus, are you really so naive you don't know political posturing when you see it?
Why should their be an international investigation? To placate a minority of cranks? You may as well demand an international investigation into the Norman conquest.


And now you are loosing ground again.
Do you really not get the consequences of reopening the thing? If it would get a different result, Israel could abandon itself. They would lack any base of existance.
Our corrupt criminal zionist govt even donate subs and corvettes to the criminals, which we have to pay. MADNESS, I do not comply with.



If they did good research it would stand up wouldn't it? Fact is it hasn't and is regarded as a joke.
I'm sure a Stalinist can in principle do good research on Stalin, but ten to one they'll still end up coming out with a load of ideologically fueled apologetics.
Exactly how much research - I mean actual research - do these guys do?


They simply can't stand, since all of them have been hunted and punished for that, implying nasty nazi stuff.
Give researchers a chance to do it, under the roof of international community, to rule out any extremist stuff.




What dogmatic thinking? When I encountered denier claims, I took the trouble to actually read up on a bit of 'official history'. And bugger me, if the deniers didn't routinely lie and distort. Why should I be dogmatic about liars like you obviously are?


Your choise of language, the 'denier' thingy, I disagree, thus inqusition reference.
I do not consider only eyewitnesses proof enough.
Certainly G.Rudolf did a very good scientific job, anything else is diffamation of usual suspects.

Our courts consider the case obvious, and hence no need for proof since it is obvious. On what base? They expect stupidity, blind allegiance and compliance. Makes me think twice...


I've been to Germany. Very nice country, lovely people. Nobody seemed arsed about the Holocaust. Germany does have some fine Holocaust historians though.
Here in the UK, I can easily access virtually any denier material I like off the net. But studying 'official history' costs a fucking fortune in books and old ones can be hard to get hold of. It's easier to get denier stuff here.

People simply do not dare to speak out their mind anymore, just at home or in trusted groups. Very bad climate, I think.
You will not notice that from just spending some holiday here.

People are very mad at (our) military deployment and the shameful aid to the zionist criminals in Israel.

Together with those two individuals, you might get a grip what really goes on here...

Michel Friedmann-- ex Vice President of the Jewish Council(totally zionist) and sentenced for having cocain party with illegal east european prostitutes. Dont worry about him, he fell softly, as usual.

and D. Cohn-Bendit-- suspected to have child porn affairs and to be a pedophile.

Both do boldly defend zionist policy to the extreme. I could expand that list endlessly.

If you ask me, those individuals are a disgrace of the jewish people, generating real hatred against the normal good jews, who have nothing to do with the madness. But they will suffer and be punished again, because of such sick folks.

Generally, no critizism is being tolerated on the zionists, and hence it is considered 'anti-semite', being the word itself a wit in that context.

The whole term denier is very dogmatic in itself. :p

[dogsmilk]

Astonishigly, now we come into a real conversation.
Yes, propaganda is all present. Last WE I counted 6 WWII 'documentaries' just by zapping. It is the normal average amount on WE, besides once a day during week.

WWII is not the Holocaust is it?
Can't say I've ever seen that many here. Mind you, I don't get the history channel.
If I was that sad, I'd go through last week's TV guide.



Well, it is not our law, it is still allied enforced law. STILL!
But you are not completely wrong here, it is our traitor govt consisting of germans, yes. Collaborators.

Denial wasn't illegal in Germany until what? The early 90s I think. How can that be an "allied enforced law"?
"Collaborators" my arse. I think you're betraying exactly where you're coming from. No offence, but I think (neo-)Nazis are the epitome of all that's fucked up in humans and are on a par with maggots. Just so you know.
I suppose from a neo-Nazi point of view Israel is a paradox. On one hand in must really piss them off not only did that twat with the daft moustache lead them to a crushing defeat, the Jews ended up with a country. On the other, Israel's behaviour gives them ammo and the opportunity to substitute "Zionist" for "Jew" and keep on spouting the same bullshit. Chuck in the 'good Jews' notion to sound nice and away you go - Himmler wouldn't have liked it, but needs must...



And now you are loosing ground again.
Do you really not get the consequences of reopening the thing? If it would get a different result, Israel could abandon itself. They would lack any base of existance.
Our corruot criminal zionist govt even donate subs and corvettes to the criminals, which we have to pay. MADNESS, I do not comply with.

If the world suddenly flipped into the bizarre alternate reality you reside in, I don't think Israelis would pack up and disperse themselves everywhere in the face of a "different result". Again you betray yourself by suggesting that if we think along your lines, you would blame the overwhelming majority of Israelis born after the war for your 'hoax'.
As it is, there is no grounds for an 'international investigation' because deniers have conspicuously failed to provide any. It really is that simple.

Some people deny the Holodomor. Should we have an 'international investigation' about that? Or the Armenian genocide?


They simply can't stand, since all of them have been hunted and punished for that, implying nasty nazi stuff.
Give researchers a chance to do it, under the roof of international community, to rule out any extremist stuff.

What a crock of shit. Arthur Butz is a tenured professor of electrical engineering at Northwestern University - what 'chance' is he lacking? Mark Weber - who last year basically sacked off denial - has apparently made a lot of money off the IHR - what 'chance' is he lacking? Bradley Smith lives happily in Mexico and runs a denier forum - what 'chance' is he lacking?
You're just pitifully trying to suggest if only they could, they'd prove their point. They had their chance, they failed miserably. Live with it.


Your choise of language, the 'denier' thingy, I disagree, thus inqusition reference.

Denial is denial. I'd use the term with regard to an armenian genocide denier or Holodomor denier.Do you have a problem with that?


I do not consider only eyewitnesses proof enough.

Good job they're not the sole basis for established history then eh?
Mind you, answer me this - where are all the witnesses that back the denier side? You'd think there'd be quite a few wouldn't you? So where the fuck are they?


Certainly G.Rudolf did a very good scientific job, anything else is diffamation of usual suspects.

No he didn't. He himself backed away from the chemistry stuff. Where have you been?
Incidentally, if he's so great, why did he write under a range of different names he awarded bogus qualifications to? He even 'co-wrote' one paper with one of his fictitious alter-egos. The guy is a fraud.


Our courts consider the case obvious, and hence no need for proof since it is obvious. On what base? They expect stupidity and blind allegiance and compliance. Makes me think twice...

Do you seriously expect your courts to go over the entire history of the Holocaust at every trial involving deniers? What a waste of taxpayer's money that would be.



People simply do not dare to speak out their mind anymore, just at home or in trusted groups. Very bad climate, I think.
You will not notice that from just spending some holiday here.

Well I'll have to take your word for that. I'm kind of guessing at the sort of company you keep.


People are very mad at (our) military deployment and the shameful aid to the zionist criminals in Israel.

Really? I didn't realise German troops are deployed in Israel to help the IDF.


Together with those two individuals, you might get a grip what really goes on here...

Michel Friedmann-- ex Vice President of the Jewisch Council(totally zionist) and sentenced for having cocain party with illegal east european prostitutes. Dont worry about him, he fell softly, as usual.

and D. Cohn-Bendit-- suspected to have child porn affairs

Both do boldly defend zionist policy to the extreme. I could expand that list endlessly.

People involved in scandals. Wow. The first is particularly shit. Ever heard of Angus Deaton? Shit, he must be Zionist, right?
What has people involved in scandals got to do with Zionism?


If you ask me, those individuals are a disgrace of the jewish people, generating real hatred against the normal good jews, who have nothing to do with the madness.

You'd have to be a terminal fuckwit to believe Jewish people involved in scandals says anything about Jews. Or should we believe when a Christian is involved in a scandal that says bad things about Christians? When prominent evangelist preacher Ted Haggard was involved in a gay prostitute and crystal meth scandal should that have generated "real hatred" against Christians?
Shit, next time a footballer is accused of rape, should I start hating footballers because of it?
I think we're seeing your bigoted fuck colours shining through now aren't we you bigoted fuck?


But they will suffer and be punished again, because of such sick folks.

Says it all really doesn't it?
I think I see where you're coming from.


Generally, no critizism is being tolerated on the zionists, and hence it is considered 'anti-semite', being the word itself a wit in that context.

Says who? I've encountered heaps of criticism of Israel.

The whole term denier is very dogmatic in itself.

And saying 'holohoax' isn't? Why don't you take that up with your denier mates?
Or carping on about 'official propaganda' in stark contradiction to reality?

[tinyint]

WWII is not the Holocaust is it?
Can't say I've ever seen that many here. Mind you, I don't get the history channel.




Denial wasn't illegal in Germany until what? The early 90s I think. How can that be an "allied enforced law"?
"Collaborators" my arse. I think you're betraying exactly where you're coming from. No offence, but I think (neo-)Nazis are the epitome of all that's fucked up in humans and are on a par with maggots. Just so you know.
I suppose from a neo-Nazi point of view Israel is a paradox. On one hand in must really piss them off not only did that twat with the daft moustache lead them to a crushing defeat, the Jews ended up with a country. On the other, Israel's behaviour gives them ammo and the opportunity to substitute "Zionist" for "Jew" and keep on spouting the same bullshit.




If the world suddenly flipped into the bizarre alternate reality you reside in, I don't think Israelis would pack up and disperse themselves everywhere in the face of a "different result". Again you betray yourself by suggesting that if we think along your lines, you would blame the overwhelming majority of Israelis born after the war for your 'hoax'.
As it is, there is no grounds for an 'international investigation' because deniers have conspicuously failed to provide any. It really is that simple.

Some people deny the Holodomor. Should we have an 'international investigation' about that? Or the Armenian genocide?



What a crock of shit. Arthur Butz is a tenured professor of electrical engineering at Northwestern University - what 'chance' is he lacking? Mark Weber - who last year basically sacked off denial - has apparently made a lot of money off the IHR - what 'chance' is he lacking? Bradley Smith lives happily in Mexico and runs a denier forum - what 'chance' is he lacking?
You're just pitifully trying to suggest if only they could, they'd prove their point. They had their chance, they failed miserably. Live with it.



Denial is denial. I'd use the term with regard to an armenian genocide denier or Holodomor denier.Do you have a problem with that?



Good job they're not the sole basis for established history then eh?
Mind you, answer me this - where are all the witnesses that back the denier side? You'd think there'd be quite a few wouldn't you? So where the fuck are they?



No he didn't. He himself backed away from the chemistry stuff. Where have you been?
Incidentally, if he's so great, why did he write under a range of different names he awarded bogus qualifications to? He even 'co-wrote' one paper with one of his fictitious alter-egos. The guy is a fraud.



Do you seriously expect your courts to go over the entire history of the Holocaust at every trial involving deniers? What a waste of taxpayer's money that would be.




Well I'll have to take your word for that. I'm kind of guessing at the sort of company you keep.



Really? I didn't realise German troops are deployed in Israel to help the IDF.



People involved in scandals. Wow. The first is particularly shit. Ever heard of Angus Deaton? Shit, he must be Zionist, right?
What has people involved in scandals got to do with Zionism?



You'd have to be a terminal fuckwit to believe Jewish people involved in scandals says anything about Jews. Or should we believe when a Christian is involved in a scandal that says bad things about Christians? When prominent evangelist preacher Ted Haggard was involved in a gay prostitute and crystal meth scandal should that have generated "real hatred" against Christians?
Shit, next time a footballer is accused of rape, should I start hating footballers because of it?
I think we're seeing your bigoted fuck colours shining through now aren't we you bigoted fuck?



Says it all really doesn't it?
I think I see where you're coming from.



Says who? I've encountered heaps of criticism of Israel.

Dude, get a grip on reality.

I do not feel the need to explain all to you, since you can research it for yourself, if you leave your dogma and emotion behind.
Now you are completely back on the shilling track, and I consider the conversation being over.
You fell back to implications, interpretation and again half truths. I do not appreciate energy vampires.

Things to research:
-the german 'Grundgesetz' fatally and disgustingly called constitution
-the paymasters of the zionists (that is us over here).
-the Auschwitz trials and date
-the so called 'reunification'

I can smell the payed ones long before they have started shilling. Now you are defending our courts, whereas you said you do not agree with such laws. I expect a court to accept the best defense one can get, instead of imprisoning the defendant as well for being a good defendant.
It once gain shows the twisted, insane zionist logic, they try to enforce everywhere.

I could easily turn the thing round, and call you a denier of truth. See how easy that is?
Denier is BS, since the holohoax is still no proven fact!!!

[meksar]

The best thing is to ignore Dogsmilk, pretend he does not exist like the Zionists pretend the gas chambers existed. He and other provocateurs have already derailed and attacked threads exposing this fraud for what it is, dont let them do it again.

[dogsmilk]

Dude, get a grip on reality.

I do not feel the need to explain all to you, since you can research it for yourself, if you leave your dogma and emotion behind.
Now you are completely back on the shilling track, and I consider the conversation being over.You fell back to implications, interpretation and again half truths.

You mean you came out with a load of shite and kind of gave away where you're at.


I do not appreciate energy vampires.

Is this an Ann Rice kind of thing? I'm not into that sort of stuff. All a bit brooding teenager for me.


Things to research:
-the german 'Grundgesetz' fatally and disgustingly called constitution
-the paymasters of the zionists (that is us over here).
-the Auschwitz trials and date
-the so called 'reunification'

Well I know a bit about them, but since I'm lazy I would greatly appreciate it if you would share your wisdom and furnish me with a reading list. I know there is, for example, a fair bit of literature on postwar Germany looking at it from a variety of angles, but I would be heartily grateful if you could point to those scholarly works you recommend. Thank you.

I can smell the payed ones long before they have started shilling.

When did you first begin to experience grandiose delusions? Are they persistent or occasional? Are they accompanied by ideas of reference or broader in scope?

Now you are defending our courts, whereas you said you do not agree with such laws. I expect a court to accept the best defense one can get, instead of imprisoning the defendant as well for being a good defendant.
It once gain shows the twisted, insane zionist logic, they try to enforce everywhere.

http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg

Just because I don't agree with the law in principle, that does not mean I cannot make observations about how it is implemented does it??
You sentence about the defendant is nonsensical.


I could easily turn the thing round, and call you a denier of truth. See how easy that is?
Denier is BS, since the holohoax is still no proven fact!!!

LOL - you carp on about dogma then go 'holohoax' - clearly saying it is a 'hoax' - an extremely strong position for which there is zero evidence. Like who planned it? Who did what? etc etc. Have you noticed what a hypocrite you are?

The Holocaust is as well proven as, say, the Holodomor (which people do also deny and can get imprisoned for doing so - though I don't think we'll be seeing you give a shit about that, eh Nazi boy?) it's 'proven' as much as any other historical event. It will never be 'proven' to deniers because they don't want it to be. But deniers tend to champion such a warped 'methodology' they will always remain a joke. It's as simple as that.

[dogsmilk]

The best thing is to ignore Dogsmilk, pretend he does not exist like the Zionists pretend the gas chambers existed. He and other provocateurs have already derailed and attacked threads exposing this fraud for what it is, dont let them do it again.

I think that's a fantastic strategy - if you just keep talking shit and ignore anyone that points it out, the holohoax will surely collapse through the sheer weight of your shit talking.

[tinyint]

You mean you came out with a load of shite and kind of gave away where you're at.



Is this an Ann Rice kind of thing? I'm not into that sort of stuff. All a bit brooding teenager for me.



Well I know a bit about them, but since I'm lazy I would greatly appreciate it if you would share your wisdom and furnish me with a reading list. I know there is, for example, a fair bit of literature on postwar Germany looking at it from a variety of angles, but I would be heartily grateful if you could point to those scholarly works you recommend. Thank you.



When did you first begin to experience grandiose delusions? Are they persistent or occasional? Are they accompanied by ideas of reference or broader in scope?



http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg

Just because I don't agree with the law in principle, that does not mean I cannot make observations about how it is implemented does it??
You sentence about the defendant is nonsensical.



LOL - you carp on about dogma then go 'holohoax' - clearly saying it is a 'hoax' - an extremely strong position for which there is zero evidence. Like who planned it? Who did what? etc etc. Have you noticed what a hypocrite you are?

The Holocaust is as well proven as, say, the Holodomor (which people do also deny and can get imprisoned for doing so - though I don't think we'll be seeing you give a shit about that, eh Nazi boy?) it's 'proven' as much as any other historical event. It will never be 'proven' to deniers because they don't want it to be. But deniers tend to champion such a warped 'methodology' they will always remain a joke. It's as simple as that.


Whatever you say... ;):p

[dogsmilk]

Whatever you say... ;):p

I fully appreciate you do not wish to continue the conversation, but I am surprised you do not respond to -

Well I know a bit about them, but since I'm lazy I would greatly appreciate it if you would share your wisdom and furnish me with a reading list. I know there is, for example, a fair bit of literature on postwar Germany looking at it from a variety of angles, but I would be heartily grateful if you could point to those scholarly works you recommend. Thank you.


This is a genuine request for reading suggestions. If you are indeed serious in your recommendations for serious avenues of investigation, I would assume you would be eager to assist.

[tinyint]

I fully appreciate you do not wish to continue the conversation, but I am surprised you do not respond to -



This is a genuine request for reading suggestions. If you are indeed serious in your recommendations for serious avenues of investigation, I would assume you would be eager to assist.

Ok, one hint for you.

The allies purged our history, they confiscated many archives and files.
You have to dig into US/UK archives, aka nazi archives.

Concerning the 'Grundgesetz'...

Look into the very definition of a constitution and compare to 'GG'.
Study a bit SHAEF Law, International Law, Geneva Convention and compare to 'GG'.
Make yourself familiar with the missing peace treaty and why that is. Study 4+2 'treaties' and you'll find out that certain allied overrides still have been in place.
Study the US National Security Act of 1947 and the Bush History, Banking Union Corp, Trading with the enemy act etc...

It all comes down to WWII and holohoax, which enabled all the madness today.
This is where the hidden/forbidden history have begun.
The truth behind it is almost unbelievable.

Enough said, since you got plenty of work to do. :cool:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[accuracy]

...... Gassings were more 'clinical'.
It's actually easier in terms of efficiency and secrecy to ship people to a place where they are killed quickly in large numbers. Save a bit of ammo too I reckon.



Gassings??? Where is your proof, dogsmilk. :D

Surely you must remember from other Holocaust threads that no one was gassed at all! No one! :cool:

Anyhow, pal, please stick within the threads subject.

[accuracy]

Apparently you haven't noticed the Nazis started by shooting Jews (Shootings make up quite a chunk of the Holocaust; you might be aware of that if you weren't so astonishingly ignorant).
Constantly shooting men, women and children in cold blood is not good for the mental health of the soldiers doing it. Gassings were more 'clinical'.
It's actually easier in terms of efficiency and secrecy to ship people to a place where they are killed quickly in large numbers. Save a bit of ammo too I reckon.

Laurence Rees writes regarding NKVD killings of Poles at Kalinin prison, one of the massacres under the Katyn umberella, that they led the Poles in one by one to shoot them in the back of the head.



Yet elsewhere they were shooting them in groups. Surely that's more efficient? Why would you lead men in one by one taking hours?
Employing Meksar logic, I can say because I think that's a poor way of going about mass killing, there is therefore a big hole in the 'official story' of Katyn. Apparently, Katyn deniers do actually use that exact, shit-thick 'denier logic'.

Do me a favour, Meksar - try to have a fucking clue what you're talking about and learn the blatantly obvious - people don't always act how you think they should have.



I think the best way of stopping the madness would be you having some kind of clue about what you're talking about.

Jesus, do you people take pride in being stupid?

Accuracy - his user name as ironic as ever - apparently can't even check simple facts like the legal shennanigans with Levin re Anne Frank were about the stage play, not the diary itself. It's not difficult to find this out.

Gullible, tabloid conspiracy fodder. You may as well just read the sun.

So...............why are YOU so upset with the articles i post. Defend yourself
by relevant articles of your own. :cool:

[accuracy]

From here onwards, i will be "ignoring" dogsmilks
posts, readers.


Accuracy :rolleyes:

[torus]

From here onwards, i will be "ignoring" dogsmilks
posts, readers.


Accuracy :rolleyes:

+1

[elcribbo]

Gassings??? Where is your proof, dogsmilk. :D

Surely you must remember from other Holocaust threads that no one was gassed at all! No one! :cool:

Anyhow, pal, please stick within the threads subject.

Apart from a couple of neo-nazis and Hitler apologists, no serious historian in the world denies the holocaust.

Do yourself a favour and just try not taking what your puppetmasters tell you without questioning it.

[dogsmilk]

Ok, one hint for you.

The allies purged our history, they confiscated many archives and files.
You have to dig into US/UK archives, aka nazi archives.

Concerning the 'Grundgesetz'...

Look into the very definition of a constitution and compare to 'GG'.
Study a bit SHAEF Law, International Law, Geneva Convention and compare to 'GG'.
Make yourself familiar with the missing peace treaty and why that is. Study 4+2 'treaties' and you'll find out that certain allied overrides still have been in place.
Study the US National Security Act of 1947 and the Bush History, Banking Union Corp, Trading with the enemy act etc...

It all comes down to WWII and holohoax, which enabled all the madness today.
This is where the hidden/forbidden history have begun.
The truth behind it is almost unbelievable.

Enough said, since you got plenty of work to do. :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5K2pcyUGTA

Well that's quite a lot of stuff to look at and apparently contains some surprises - I didn't know SHAEF was a lawmaking entity, particularly as it was disbanded in 1945.

I can't be arsed going off on some tangent and having a big argument, but I'm just curious as to what your pitch here is. I would be grateful if you could sum up what you think I would discover should I follow the same 'research' path as yourself. What's the big revelation?
I stress, I don't want to argue about it, but I am simply interested.

[tinyint]

Well that's quite a lot of stuff to look at and apparently contains some surprises - I didn't know SHAEF was a lawmaking entity, particularly as it was disbanded in 1945.

I can't be arsed going off on some tangent and having a big argument, but I'm just curious as to what your pitch here is. I would be grateful if you could sum up what you think I would discover should I follow the same 'research' path as yourself. What's the big revelation?
I stress, I don't want to argue about it, but I am simply interested.

Dude, I exactly know, how you guys operate :p

You'll join the only other one on ignore list, purple rain.

Give up now and use your little brain.

[dogsmilk]

Gassings??? Where is your proof, dogsmilk. :D

Surely you must remember from other Holocaust threads that no one was gassed at all! No one! :cool:

Anyhow, pal, please stick within the threads subject.

The proof resides in the fact the evidence base totally supports this. Unfortunately, it's difficult to reduce this to a few factoids which is all you seem able to cope with.

All I remember from other Holocaust threads is people talking a lot of shit including your hilariously naive blind acceptance of Richard Krege. You must have been born yesterday.

So...............why are YOU so upset with the articles i post. Defend yourself
by relevant articles of your own.

I'm not 'upset', I was simply pointing out one easily checkable fact. Unlike you I don't subscribe to the 'I haz articalz off net. It conspiracy so it true. I haz youtube video too' school of thought.

From here onwards, i will be "ignoring" dogsmilks
posts, readers.


Your commitment to 'truthseeking' is, I see, as solid as ever.

[dogsmilk]

+1

So what's new?

[dogsmilk]

Dude, I exactly know, how you guys operate :p

You'll join the only other one on ignore list, purple rain.

Give up now and use your little brain.

Jesus you're paranoid. All I was asking is what you think about the stuff you recommended I look into. If you want to be all cryptic that's your business.

The truth is out there - I have seen it - it affects the entire world - but I'm not going to tell you what it is!

[torus]

It would be interesting to observe the effects of revisionist literature being readily available in mainstream bookstores. Bookstores where one can find ample representation of gay/straight, liberal/conservative, theist/atheist, etc studies. The accepted "bible" on the holocaust, Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of The European Jews, was published in 1961; the same year as the Eichmann trial. It was subsequently republished in 1985 in a REVISED AND DEFINITIVE format. This revisionism has allegedly stood the test of time for 25 years now. So, in some circles; i.e. DOGMATIC ones, revisionism CAN be definitive.

Hilberg's work is considered a "a landmark synthesis that remains unsurpassed....".
-The Holocaust in History, Michael Marrus, intro. p.5

In the preface to his own work Marrus states;
"I have had no difficulty in excluding from this book any discussion of the so-called revisionists...."

Of course he excludes the work of revisionists. Every revisioinist but one; namely Hilberg. we are dealing with THESIS here. Dogma...In which anyone who confronts the dogma is already maligned with terms like hater, nazi sympathizer, etc. ad infinitum.

Using the Hegelian dialectic as a model (thesis, antithesis, synthesis) Hilberg's revisionism isn't a synthesis as much as IT IS THEOLOGY. DOGMA

"...the Holocaust falls somehow outside history by virtue of its SUPREME IMPORTANCE - and hence it is held not subject to the wide-ranging investigation, discussion, and debate carried on with other aspects of the recent past."
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p.1 (emphasis mine)

DOGMA...with incarceration for some who challenge it. I've often wondered why the term "holocaust" was chosen. I guess it pays to cash in on 2,000 years of suffering. Dogma pays!

"Holokaustos, we are reminded, comes from the third century B.C Greek translation of the Old Testament, signifying, 'the burnt sacrificial offering dedicated exclusively to God'. As such, the designation of the massacre of European Jewry connoted an EVENT OF THEOLOGICAL SIGNIFICANCE and perhaps as well an event whose mysteries were not meant to be understood."
-The Holocaust in History, intro, p.3 (emphasis mine)

"Any writer may, if he so chooses, deal with the subject of the Holocaust,' he complains in a recent article. His apparent conclusion: only the survivors, or perhaps those who are totally honest with themselves about the limitations of their powers, had better try."
-The Holocaust in History, intro, p. 3, citing Elie Weisel, Does The Holocaust Lie Beyond The Reach Of Art? NY Times April 17 1983

ANY writer?

"I write to denounce writing. I tell the impossibility one stumbles upon in trying to tell the tale."
-Weisel, NY Times, April 17 1983

[dogsmilk]

It would be interesting to observe the effects of revisionist literature being readily available in mainstream bookstores. Bookstores where one can find ample representation of gay/straight, liberal/conservative, theist/atheist, etc studies. The accepted "bible" on the holocaust, Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of The European Jews, was published in 1961; the same year as the Eichmann trial. It was subsequently republished in 1985 in a REVISED AND DEFINITIVE format. This revisionism has allegedly stood the test of time for 25 years now. So, in some circles; i.e. DOGMATIC ones, revisionism CAN be definitive.

Hilberg's work is considered a "a landmark synthesis that remains unsurpassed....".
-The Holocaust in History, Michael Marrus, intro. p.5

In the preface to his own work Marrus states;
"I have had no difficulty in excluding from this book any discussion of the so-called revisionists...."

Of course he excludes the work of revisionists. Every revisioinist but one; namely Hilberg. we are dealing with THESIS here. Dogma...In which anyone who confronts the dogma is already maligned with terms like hater, nazi sympathizer, etc. ad infinitum.

Using the Hegelian dialectic as a model (thesis, antithesis, synthesis) Hilberg's revisionism isn't a synthesis as much as IT IS THEOLOGY. DOGMA

"...the Holocaust falls somehow outside history by virtue of its SUPREME IMPORTANCE - and hence it is held not subject to the wide-ranging investigation, discussion, and debate carried on with other aspects of the recent past."
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p.1 (emphasis mine)

DOGMA...with incarceration for some who challenge it. I've often wondered why the term "holocaust" was chosen. I guess it pays to cash in on 2,000 years of suffering. Dogma pays!

"Holokaustos, we are reminded, comes from the third century B.C Greek translation of the Old Testament, signifying, 'the burnt sacrificial offering dedicated exclusively to God'. As such, the designation of the massacre of European Jewry connoted an EVENT OF THEOLOGICAL SIGNIFICANCE and perhaps as well an event whose mysteries were not meant to be understood."
-The Holocaust in History, intro, p.3 (emphasis mine)

"Any writer may, if he so chooses, deal with the subject of the Holocaust,' he complains in a recent article. His apparent conclusion: only the survivors, or perhaps those who are totally honest with themselves about the limitations of their powers, had better try."
-The Holocaust in History, intro, p. 3, citing Elie Weisel, Does The Holocaust Lie Beyond The Reach Of Art? NY Times April 17 1983

ANY writer?

"I write to denounce writing. I tell the impossibility one stumbles upon in trying to tell the tale."
-Weisel, NY Times, April 17 1983

I wish you wouldn't copy and paste things from elsewhere without crediting the author or linking to the source. You do this a lot - it's like you're trying to make out you wrote it. Still, deniers make a lifestyle out of dishonesty.
As has been repeatedly pointed out, 'revisionist' materials are easily available free on the net. How can anything be more accessible than that? You can buy them off Amazon too, but prices have skyrocketed because they're out of print and now rare. What would be the point of reprints when everyone's downloading them for free? Unless you're some sort of collector desperate for a hard copy.
As I said before, it is far easier to get hold of 'revisionist' books than 'official' ones off cost alone.
Historians are under no compulsion to indulge loons. If 'revisionists' produced genuinely scholarly works that passed peer review that would be that.

It was subsequently republished in 1985 in a REVISED AND DEFINITIVE format. This revisionism has allegedly stood the test of time for 25 years now. So, in some circles; i.e. DOGMATIC ones, revisionism CAN be definitive.

What a prick. Evidently never noticed the 2003 edition. How many times do you get 'definitive' in blurb?

[tinyint]

It would be interesting to observe the effects of revisionist literature being readily available in mainstream bookstores. Bookstores where one can find ample representation of gay/straight, liberal/conservative, theist/atheist, etc studies. The accepted "bible" on the holocaust, Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of The European Jews, was published in 1961; the same year as the Eichmann trial. It was subsequently republished in 1985 in a REVISED AND DEFINITIVE format. This revisionism has allegedly stood the test of time for 25 years now. So, in some circles; i.e. DOGMATIC ones, revisionism CAN be definitive.

Hilberg's work is considered a "a landmark synthesis that remains unsurpassed....".
-The Holocaust in History, Michael Marrus, intro. p.5

In the preface to his own work Marrus states;
"I have had no difficulty in excluding from this book any discussion of the so-called revisionists...."

Of course he excludes the work of revisionists. Every revisioinist but one; namely Hilberg. we are dealing with THESIS here. Dogma...In which anyone who confronts the dogma is already maligned with terms like hater, nazi sympathizer, etc. ad infinitum.

Using the Hegelian dialectic as a model (thesis, antithesis, synthesis) Hilberg's revisionism isn't a synthesis as much as IT IS THEOLOGY. DOGMA

"...the Holocaust falls somehow outside history by virtue of its SUPREME IMPORTANCE - and hence it is held not subject to the wide-ranging investigation, discussion, and debate carried on with other aspects of the recent past."
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p.1 (emphasis mine)

DOGMA...with incarceration for some who challenge it. I've often wondered why the term "holocaust" was chosen. I guess it pays to cash in on 2,000 years of suffering. Dogma pays!

"Holokaustos, we are reminded, comes from the third century B.C Greek translation of the Old Testament, signifying, 'the burnt sacrificial offering dedicated exclusively to God'. As such, the designation of the massacre of European Jewry connoted an EVENT OF THEOLOGICAL SIGNIFICANCE and perhaps as well an event whose mysteries were not meant to be understood."
-The Holocaust in History, intro, p.3 (emphasis mine)

"Any writer may, if he so chooses, deal with the subject of the Holocaust,' he complains in a recent article. His apparent conclusion: only the survivors, or perhaps those who are totally honest with themselves about the limitations of their powers, had better try."
-The Holocaust in History, intro, p. 3, citing Elie Weisel, Does The Holocaust Lie Beyond The Reach Of Art? NY Times April 17 1983

ANY writer?

"I write to denounce writing. I tell the impossibility one stumbles upon in trying to tell the tale."
-Weisel, NY Times, April 17 1983

Some stories are true that never happened.

:mad:

[torus]

I don't like to contradict myself, but I'm not addressing you dogmamilk. You have your gang; why not go and "hang" with them. I imagine that you tacitly endosre the incarceration of those who you regard as an affront to "your" theology. My post was typed by me and not cut and pasted from anywhere. You're far too paranoid....and you love hurling insults. You don't even make a good a-hole. You're a superlative example of a prejudiced, dogmatic, foul-mouthed, affirmationist though! Which is fine, as name calling smacks of desperation, which I can't accuse you of denying.


"As the number of surviving eyewitnesses to the period diminishes, the more freely will human imagination range in its attempts to achieve understanding. All of this will have to be met in a spirit of patience and openness. The freedom of man's spirit suffers no restriction. Hence we must be aware that further study is liable to inflict new pain and will sometimes require that generally accepted views, which, it seemed, were firmly and solidly established, be abandoned."
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p.7, citing A.B. Yehoshua, Between Right and Right, trans. Arnold Schwartz (Garden City, N.Y., 1981,) 5-6

NO room for discussion here. BETWEEN RIGHT AND RIGHT.

I don't think that I need to cite the numerous works that contradict fundamentalist Christian theology. Works that attempt to elucidate why "generally accepted views, which, it seemed, were firmly and solidly established" need to abondoned....revised. To the fundamentalist of course, none of this really matters as their relationship to Christ is a matter of faith. They may indeed have personal evidence of the manifestation of Christ in their lives despite the fact that 99.9% of what they "know" about Jesus has no corroborating physical evidence....it's "inherited knowledge."

[torus]

I'm well aware of why Weisel would "write to denounce writing."

"further study is liable to inflict new pain and will sometimes require that generally accepted views, which, it seemed, were firmly and solidly established, be abandoned."
YEHOSHUA, Between Right and Right. (the irony of his name)

Could it be that Yehoshua was expressing the viewpoint that affirmationists AND minimizers/revisionists are equally "right"; and that "all of this will have to be met in a spirit of patience and openness." ?
Yehoshua's statement is a tad ambigous, yet I'm inclined to believe that further study may indeed reveal that 6,ooo,oo1 were holocausted.

This dogma brooks no minimization however.

"We now have a vast literature on the Holocaust as a result of this scholarship. Indeed, the field is by now far too vast for any one scholar to master. A recent, select bibliography lists close to two thousand book entries in many languages and notes over ten thousand publications on Auschwitz alone"
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p. 5-6


A cursory look at Bibles that are availble reveals:

King James Version
(also known as Authorized Version) 1611
YLT Young's Literal Translation 1862 (Revised 1887, 1898)
ASV American Standard Version 1901
MLB
NBV Modern Language Bible
also known as New Berkley Version 1959 (NT - 1945; NT revised 1969)
BBE Bible in Basic English 1965
NASB New American Standard Bible (NASB) 1971 (NT - 1963; Revised 1996)
NKJV New King James Version 1982
NRSV New Revised Standard Version 1990
KJ21 Twenty-First Century King James Version 1994 (NT - 1992)
ESV English Standard Version 2003

this isn't an exhaustive list, but they are all basically repeating the same thing. One can even a acquire a Doctorate in Divinty. Affirmationists keep repeating the same thing, yet the field remains "far too vast for any one scholar to master."

Dogma

[dogsmilk]

I don't like to contradict myself, but I'm not addressing you dogmamilk. You have your gang; why not go and "hang" with them. I imagine that you tacitly endosre the incarceration of those who you regard as an affront to "your" theology. My post was typed by me and not cut and pasted from anywhere. You're far too paranoid....and you love hurling insults. You don't even make a good a-hole. You're a superlative example of a prejudiced, dogmatic, foul-mouthed, affirmationist though! Which is fine, as name calling smacks of desperation, which I can't accuse you of denying.


"As the number of surviving eyewitnesses to the period diminishes, the more freely will human imagination range in its attempts to achieve understanding. All of this will have to be met in a spirit of patience and openness. The freedom of man's spirit suffers no restriction. Hence we must be aware that further study is liable to inflict new pain and will sometimes require that generally accepted views, which, it seemed, were firmly and solidly established, be abandoned."
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p.7, citing A.B. Yehoshua, Between Right and Right, trans. Arnold Schwartz (Garden City, N.Y., 1981,) 5-6

NO room for discussion here. BETWEEN RIGHT AND RIGHT.

I don't think that I need to cite the numerous works that contradict fundamentalist Christian theology. Works that attempt to elucidate why "generally accepted views, which, it seemed, were firmly and solidly established" need to abondoned....revised. To the fundamentalist of course, none of this really matters as their relationship to Christ is a matter of faith. They may indeed have personal evidence of the manifestation of Christ in their lives despite the fact that 99.9% of what they "know" about Jesus has no corroborating physical evidence....it's "inherited knowledge."

Then my apologies. You have a habit of posting other people's stuff uncredited and I perhaps did not anticipate you would write such guff yourself.

To be honest, I find your ramblings to be a load of meandering twaddle. "Theology" my arse. Rather than spouting pretentious shite, why don't you do something constructive like a comparative study of the practice of history with relation to the Holocaust with, say, the practice of history with regard to the Soviet Union. This would give you the opportunity to consider the phenomenon of denial of Stalin's atrocities which are similiarly excluded from scholarship and can elicit prosecution. You could meditate upon the similarities, if Holocaust history is methodologically different and why one is important to you but the other you couldn't care less about.

[torus]

"It is a moral outrage that in the wake of the extensive denunciations of Stalin's crimes throughout what was once called the Soviet bloc, not a single Stalinist secret police functionary, concentration camp commander, torturer, or executioner has been placed on trial for Stalinist crimes....some of the executioners of the 15,000 Polish officers of Katyn and elsewhere have been identified as living in the former Soviet Union on state pensions. Yet in a strange display of moral lethargy, to this day nowhere has anyone been brought to justice for these extraordinary crimes."
-Zbigniew Brzezinski, Out of Control, p. 15-6

dogmamilk? you're EXTRA ORDINARY

why don't you go wash John Demanjuk's feet....

[dogsmilk]

"It is a moral outrage that in the wake of the extensive denunciations of Stalin's crimes throughout what was once called the Soviet bloc, not a single Stalinist secret police functionary, concentration camp commander, torturer, or executioner has been placed on trial for Stalinist crimes....some of the executioners of the 15,000 Polish officers of Katyn and elsewhere have been identified as living in the former Soviet Union on state pensions. Yet in a strange display of moral lethargy, to this day nowhere has anyone been brought to justice for these extraordinary crimes."
-Zbigniew Brzezinski, Out of Control, p. 15-6

dogmamilk? you're EXTRA ORDINARY

why don't you go wash John Demanjuk's feet....

Well considering there are exactly the same kinds of alleged 'holes in the official story' of Stalin's crimes - though that area of denial isn't so fashionable any more - I wouldn't worry as none of happened anyway... ;)
But hey - the, ah, 'truth' is coming out!
http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2008/02/more-katyn-denial.html
Looks like it's still alive over there! Might be some Holodomor denial still going.


Kind of a bit rich really - the SU was hardly likely to prosecute its own people for doing its bidding. America hasn't exactly been a beacon of upstanding morality in all her affairs either. I'm sure we can actually agree on that.
.

[accuracy]

"It is a moral outrage that in the wake of the extensive denunciations of Stalin's crimes throughout what was once called the Soviet bloc, not a single Stalinist secret police functionary, concentration camp commander, torturer, or executioner has been placed on trial for Stalinist crimes....some of the executioners of the 15,000 Polish officers of Katyn and elsewhere have been identified as living in the former Soviet Union on state pensions. Yet in a strange display of moral lethargy, to this day nowhere has anyone been brought to justice for these extraordinary crimes."
-Zbigniew Brzezinski, Out of Control, p. 15-6

dogmamilk? you're EXTRA ORDINARY

why don't you go wash John Demanjuk's feet....

YES, he (dogsmilk) IS one of them, who can NEVER be reasoned with.

A fucking Zionist? haaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaa of course he is.

[dogsmilk]

YES, he (dogsmilk) IS one of them, who can NEVER be reasoned with.

A fucking Zionist? haaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaa of course he is.

I don't think I've ever seen you attempt any "reasoning". You just paste your articles.

I not like wot u sez - u iz zionist.

I was astounded when you put a picture of yourself on your avatar and saw you were an older guy - I'd previously figured you were about 12.

[torus]

Were accuracy 12 years old; one of two options would be more likely: He would have no interest in the holocaust. Or, he would be repeating the affirmationist line after having read The Diary of Anne Frank in his social studies class.

[torus]

Quoting again from an orthodox text which Yehuda Bauer considers "an authoritative summary for the expert."

"it is well to remember how recent is the beginning of professional study of the Holocaust and how short a period of time the enterprise has had to establish itself. Up to the time of the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem, in 1961, there was relatively little discussion of the massacre of European Jewry.....broadly speaking, general works scarcely mentioned the murder of European Jews, or did so in passing as one more atrocity in a particularly cruel war. This neglect prompted real fears among prominent Israelis that the Holocaust was being forgotten."
-The Holocaust in History, intro. p.5

Churchill had little to say about it, same with Eisenhower and DeGaulle.

I assume they paid little attention to it because they were intellectually unsympathetic, not viscerally anti-Semitic. Or......?

Perhaps they just accepted it as part of the "2,000 year old experience."

"the Jews had always been a minority, always in danger, but had learned that they could avert destruction by placating and appeasing their enemies. A 2,000-year old lesson could not be unlearned; the Jews could not make the switch. They were helpless."
-Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of The European Jews, rev. ed. (New York, 1985), III, 1030-31, 1038-39

What are we to make of this assesment of the "2,000 year old experience"?

"Can those who write history be trusted with the Holocaust? In a book published in 1981, oddly disdainful of much recent historiography, Lucy Dawidowicz complained that 'historians do not always turn out to be reliable guides to the recovery of the past.' Her work was an extended protest against the mistreatment of the Holocaust by historians, their purported neglect of the subject, and their apparent unwillingness to attribute responsibility where it belongs. The historians, she seems to conclude, CANNOT BE TRUSTED." (emphasis mine)
-The Holocaust in History, chap.9, p.202 citing Lucy S Dawidowicz, The Holocaust and the Historians (Cambridge, Mass, 1981), 142-46

[torus]

[QUOTE=torus;1058599703]

"the Jews had always been a minority, always in danger, but had learned that they could avert destruction by placating and appeasing their enemies. A 2,000-year old lesson could not be unlearned; the Jews could not make the switch. They were helpless."
-Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of The European Jews, rev. ed. (New York, 1985), III, 1030-31, 1038-39

The switch seems to have been made! Witness non-appeasement towards the Palestinians with Western govts. by and large giving overt approval.

[moneyisntreal]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this :o

Judea Declares War on Germany
http://www.veoh.com/collection/coffinmanholocaust/watch/v189510xq2y2KJq#

[dogsmilk]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this :o

Judea Declares War on Germany
http://www.veoh.com/collection/coffinmanholocaust/watch/v189510xq2y2KJq#

Hahahaha!

We haven't had that one for ages. Thanks for posting it - it's fucking hilarious. It may well be the most shit Holocaust denial video ever made. The beginning part is absolute class - it's so incredibly ridiculous I am not convinced it isn't intended as satire.

[icarus]

no one fights a war while trying to round up six million people

it's madness, and the nazis were efficient, not mad

win the war then start the executions

all of that precious war material shipping people to a central location just to then murder them

don't be daft

even anne frank died of typhoid, you'd think the outraged nazis would have executed her family on the spot for ridiculing them for many years by hiding in an attic

and her father was part of the german war industry. that's why he survived to re write her diaries for her, along with all the other "holocaust" novelists

an astonishing deception, but one that is now flagging, hence these rememberance days, a sign of just how powerful zionist fascists are worldwide today

(on another topic, i'm trying to build a shower, can anyone recommend a builder, polish maybe, or russian?. ta)

[moneyisntreal]

Considering the movie makes its points I would like to see you systematically counter each point it makes rather than simply say its bullshit thereby associating a stigma with it to anyone who reads your comments

That movie easily disproves the "eye witness" account of one individual who tells the same story you hear time and time again about burning 1000's of bodies a day. It may be one individual but it sheds light into the fact that sometimes it takes just one little crack that then begins to grow even larger.

I actually am not certain on my stance regarding the validity of the "Holocaust". It does seem hard to not believe the vast amounts of testimonies that have accumulated over the years, could that many people really all be lying? But on the other hand I have a tendency to be suspicious of anything that I'm told is to be the ultimate truth without a true platform for official debate, such as the case with global warming. Claiming the debate is over before there ever was one does not help your credibility but rather opens up even more questions.

I think that what gets a lot of people about the Holocaust thing is they feel as if the media which is controlled by Jewish people promotes their tragic history above all else and do use to justify committing crimes against humanity in the Middle East. I think people would rather see a more balanced rememberance of genocide by remembering what happend to all those other people and not simply what happened to Jews during World War 2.

On a side note I suppose if you could prove that Jews have funded every major conflict on both sides to perpetuate war then you could blame Jews for genocide against the rest of humanity.

[dogsmilk]

Considering the movie makes its points I would like to see you systematically counter each point it makes rather than simply say its bullshit thereby associating a stigma with it to anyone who reads your comments

That movie easily disproves the "eye witness" account of one individual who tells the same story you hear time and time again about burning 1000's of bodies a day. It may be one individual but it sheds light into the fact that sometimes it takes just one little crack that then begins to grow even larger.

I actually am not certain on my stance regarding the validity of the "Holocaust". It does seem hard to not believe the vast amounts of testimonies that have accumulated over the years, could that many people really all be lying? But on the other hand I have a tendency to be suspicious of anything that I'm told is to be the ultimate truth without a true platform for official debate, such as the case with global warming. Claiming the debate is over before there ever was one does not help your credibility but rather opens up even more questions.

I think that what gets a lot of people about the Holocaust thing is they feel as if the media which is controlled by Jewish people promotes their tragic history above all else and do use to justify committing crimes against humanity in the Middle East. I think people would rather see a more balanced rememberance of genocide by remembering what happend to all those other people and not simply what happened to Jews during World War 2.

On a side note I suppose if you could prove that Jews have funded every major conflict on both sides to perpetuate war then you could blame Jews for genocide against the rest of humanity.

So let me get this straight - I'm supposed to write an entire essay on demand about some neo-Nazi's shit video for some cunt who's giving it 'Jews control the media' by their 2nd post. Great - another anti-semitic crank - just what this forum needs.
Well let's at least start...

After some introductory waffle and a vague nod to the door-here-now-must-have-always-been-here gambit (wouldn't be much good for an air raid shelter either would it Freddy?)

Oooh -what's this? That endlessly recycled article from 1919 that says 6 million Jews are "threatened". Amazing. The coincidence that one article mentions 6 million Jews being threatened and later somewhere between 5-6 million were killed is utterly astonishing and proves a vast conspiracy. Or something.

Next - Benjamin Freedman. A guy who said a load of stuff he failed to substantiate in any way. Incredible. This speech is from 1961 so is irrelevant to events at the time
- Wall street and the rise of Hitler - a book that says fuck all about Jews (but Jews run all banks...right?) and, in the companion book, Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, Sutton explicitly rejects the idea of his big theory having anything to do with the Jews (appendix III I think)
Now Toben really starts losing his shit - He says Germans were irked at being "stabbed in the back by Zionists" - even a cursory glance at Nazi literature demonstrates it was Jews they were obsessed with. IIRC mein kamf only mentions Zionists a couple of times. But it has plenty to say about Jews. Toben saying it was all about Zionists is so laughable only a congenital imbecile would be still taking him seriously by this point. But just be sure, Toben invents some meeting and invents some demand to stop the Madagascar plan. This is curious, because Toben said this is 1933 - the Madagascar plan was vaguely floated in 1940. It was impossible before then because Madagascar was French turf. It was also totally unrealistic while the British Navy remained and would have been genocidal anyway - dumping millions of (frequently urban) Jews on some island with no facilities for them.
So then the 'Zionists' declare world wide war (!). In other words a 'don't buy German' protest campaign. The boycott was not universal (I think Zionists may actually not have joined in, but that might be wrong and there seems no reason to look anything up on account of this shit), was joined by some non-Jewish lefties and was a reaction to an aggressively anti-semitic maniac taking control of Germany. Funnily enough though, it wasn't popular with German Jews because they had to live there and were hoping to ride the anti-semitic wave out. Little did they know.
Next, apparently it was all the fault of the 'Zionists' that Jews were put in camps (though it was actually political opponents that were generally rounded up at this point. Mass rounding up of German Jews came much later). Neo-Nazi cunt Toben happily declares that because the Zionists had 'declared war' by not buying German goods, that justified sending people to concentration camps. By this logic, Israel can legitimately put all Palestinians in concentration camps because of 'boycott Israeli goods campaigns' and no-one should complain.
Oh - and then teh Protocolz.

So for the first bit, Nazi Jewish policy is 'explained' by -
1/A magazine article that happens to mention 6 million Jews being under threat
2/A claim Nazis were angry specifically at 'Zionists' which is not backed in any way despite contradicting Nazi literature.
3/A 1961 speech by a guy who made big claims he could not substantiate.
4/A book by a guy who explicitly rejects Toben's claims.
5/Time travelling Zionists
6/Some Jews boycotted German goods.
7/A ridiculous 19th century fraud

That's it. Chuck away your history books, forget the Nuremburg Laws or anything else - they're irrelevant because Toben has nailed it down!

So ok - explain to me how this isn't a complete load of fucking shit only a brain dead moron could find 'educational' and after that maybe we'll move on to the next bit if I can be arsed

I think people would rather see a more balanced rememberance of genocide by remembering what happend to all those other people and not simply what happened to Jews during World War 2.

I agree. The Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill/disabled persecuted/killed by the Nazis should be remembered too (among others). If Holocaust deniers didn't keep banging on about Jews, it might make this easier.

[tinyint]

That's it. Chuck away your history books, forget the Nuremburg Laws or anything else - they're irrelevant because Toben has nailed it down!


First sane statement I read from you. http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Sprechblasen/smilie_sw_001.gif

Perhaps not Tobe alone, but all together.

[dogsmilk]

First sane statement I read from you. http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Sprechblasen/smilie_sw_001.gif

Perhaps not Tobe alone, but all together.

I'm not being funny, but Toben is barrel scraping. Serious barrel scraping. That's the thing with you pricks - it's obvious you're on a propaganda kick because you don't give a shit about how ludicrous stuff like this is. If people bought into it, you'd just be happy as a pig in shit and nod sagely in agreement. You're not interested in 'truth' at all.
Not to mention, finding "forget about the Nuremburg laws" to be a "sane statement" yet again shows just where you're at. I didn't realise you had it in for Gypsies and black people too.

[dogsmilk]

Hahahahaha!!!!

I just remembered - Isn't this the one where they have that guy in the chemical suit thing they say was needed to handle zyklon B and portentiously intone these were not available at Auschwitz! Thus entering a bold new 'revisionist' era of delousing denial. It is this one isn't it? LOL.

[velma]

From what I've gleaned from skimming this thread, Shimon Peres is priming the world for an imminent attack on Iran and using the Holocaust Anniversary to blackmail the International Community to take Israel's side and defend it from any repercussons. We "owe" them it....

The Talmud permits the right to kill, lie, steal, deceive, exploit and willfully eliminate the 'Goyim' for profit. These sentiments are borne from hatred and revenge. It expresses the superiority of adherants of this 'holy book' and expendability of all who are not their equals; non-Jews deserve no more respect than animals and should be treated as such.

This has become apparent in the State of Israel, created exclusively for Jews. Israel obeys no International Laws, they believe their unique situation gives them alone the freedom to eradicate any percieved enemies which (they claim) threaten it's continued, non-negotiable existence and they have personal permission from God to wreak wanton destruction in that pursuit.

[tinyint]

I'm not being funny, but Toben is barrel scraping. Serious barrel scraping. That's the thing with you pricks - it's obvious you're on a propaganda kick because you don't give a shit about how ludicrous stuff like this is. If people bought into it, you'd just be happy as a pig in shit and nod sagely in agreement. You're not interested in 'truth' at all.
Not to mention, finding "forget about the Nuremburg laws" to be a "sane statement" yet again shows just where you're at. I didn't realise you had it in for Gypsies and black people too.

Handbook chapter 2 p199?

Seriously, are you able to even articulate yourself without resorting to sublime implications, wild insults and shouting?

You won't find this key within your scripts.

Typical standard pontless BS...

Hold the thief when being caught having one's own finger in the honey pot.

[dogsmilk]

Handbook chapter 2 p199?

Seriously, are you able to even articulate yourself without resorting to sublime implications, wild insults and shouting?

You won't find this key within your scripts.

Typical standard pontless BS...

Hold the thief when being caught having one's own finger in the honey pot.

No offense, chief, but from my subjective perspective you're an arsehole capable of little more than incoherent rambling. On reflection I think Purple Rain was right and you're the sort of feeble hanger-on of the Jew theory crowd. The spotty little kid trying to impress the big boys.

Never mind - I kind of feel one of my period hiatuses from the forum coming on. I need a holiday - hopefully MOSSAD will give me a pass to the secret city where all those Jews are hiding.
One thing I find interesting is that after big posting sprees, I find my head full of stuff about Jews. Because it's Jews this, Jews that I get sick to death of hearing about Jews. It's like some cunning anti-semitic plot to make you so sick of hearing about Jews they'll start to get on your tits. Before conspiracy forums, I never even thought about Jews. Or the Holocaust (I somehow managed to evade the constant media drumbeat about the Holocaust there apparently is 365 days a year). Holocaust denial was some distant mad thing nutters believed, (instead of a mad thing nutters believe that's right in your face) like it must be for people generally. People who know I do this forum posting think I'm crackers for bothering. Nobody I know is remotely interested in the Holocaust or Jews. How many people are?
It makes me wonder what it must be like for actual Jew theorists - going through life with their heads full of big Jew conspiracies nobody else can see apart from their online chums and maybe some other cranks they're pally with. They can't stand Jews, think they're responsible for all things bad, yet Jews rule their life. Like if rodin, King of the Jew Theorists, really thinks how he posts it must be fucking awful for him - seeing Jews hatching plots everywhere as he watches impotently, constantly preoccupied with Jews, Jews, Jews. Jesus - what a nightmare.
Imagine going through life seeing Jewish plots everywhere and the world just doesn't understand. Sat transfixed in front of youtube wondering why no-one else gets it. Trawling through the net to find out if people are Jewish so you can add them to your Big Conspiracy list. This Howard Jacobson quote -

You will know them because they know more about the Jewish religion than you do. As soon as you meet one of those, and think, by God they’ve got a lot of quotations, by God they know everything about Jews—then that’s what they are. And what cheers me about all this, is that your true anti-Semite, like your true Holocaust denier, is doomed to a kind of Dante-esque hell of living among Jewish things, Jewish books, Jewish artifacts. You can see them in the library, they’ve got the Talmud up here, and they’re burrowing away to find more and more evidence against the Jews. Few Jews live a more perfect scholarly Jewish life

just seems spot on (except I think 'left clicking on links' should replace the bit about the library as far as this forum is concerned). All your beliefs revolve around Jews in a negative way. If it starts to get on my tits when I have nothing against Jews and I'm not arsed about Jews in my daily life, what's it like for these cunts?

Is it a living hell? Any Jew theorists care to comment?

[tinyint]

No offense, chief, but from my subjective perspective you're an arsehole capable of little more than incoherent rambling. On reflection I think Purple Rain was right and you're the sort of feeble hanger-on of the Jew theory crowd. The spotty little kid trying to impress the big boys.

Never mind - I kind of feel one of my period hiatuses from the forum coming on. I need a holiday - hopefully MOSSAD will give me a pass to the secret city where all those Jews are hiding.
One thing I find interesting is that after big posting sprees, I find my head full of stuff about Jews. Because it's Jews this, Jews that I get sick to death of hearing about Jews. It's like some cunning anti-semitic plot to make you so sick of hearing about Jews they'll start to get on your tits. Before conspiracy forums, I never even thought about Jews. Or the Holocaust (I somehow managed to evade the constant media drumbeat about the Holocaust there apparently is 365 days a year). Holocaust denial was some distant mad thing nutters believed, (instead of a mad thing nutters believe that's right in your face) like it must be for people generally. People who know I do this forum posting think I'm crackers for bothering. Nobody I know is remotely interested in the Holocaust or Jews.
It makes me wonder what it must be like for actual Jew theorists - going through life with their heads full of big Jew conspiracies nobody else can see apart from their online chums and maybe some other cranks they're pally with. They can't stand Jews, think they're responsible for all things bad, yet Jews rule their life. Like if rodin, King of the Jew Theorists, really thinks how he posts it must be fucking awful for him - seeing Jews hatching plots everywhere as he watches impotently, constantly preoccupied with Jews, Jews, Jews. Jesus - what a nightmare.
Imagine going through life seeing Jewish plots everywhere and the world just doesn't understand. Sat transfixed in front of youtube wondering why no-one else gets it. Trawling through the net to find out if people are Jewish so you can add them to your Big Conspiracy list. This Howard Jacobson quote -



just seems spot on (except I think 'left clicking on links' should replace the bit about the library as far as this forum is concerned). All your beliefs revolve around Jews in a negative way. If it starts to get on my tits when I have nothing against Jews and I'm not arsed about Jews in my daily life, what's it like for these cunts?

Is it a living hell? Any Jew theorists care to comment?

*yawn*

[dogsmilk]

*yawn*

Seriously though - what's it like being a Jew theorist - does it start to get on your tits? Or not? I'm not mucking about, I'm genuinely interested.

On reflection, probably not the best person to ask and expect a coherent response...

[tinyint]

Seriously though - what's it like being a Jew theorist - does it start to get on your tits? Or not? I'm not mucking about, I'm genuinely interested.

I am only a free mind, a thing you will never understand, I guess. :D

[dogsmilk]

I am only a free mind, a thing you will never understand, I guess. :D

I think another thing that gets on my tits is this "I'm a free thinker you're not" bullshit you get. It's like when people say "sheeple". It's so arrogant and patronising and so often comes from dimwits like tinyint. How do these people work out they're this awesome free spirit and the world just doesn't get it? - I was like that when I was 14 and I assumed it was something you grew out of along with angst-ridden diaries.
How does one deduce one is a "free mind"? Does anyone believe they have an unfree mind?
The worst one ever is 'swallow the red pill' or any other allusion to the matrix - or v for vendetta for that matter. How can people think they're all radical and shit and then use imagery from big budget Hollywood films to frame it?
I can't stand "awake" either.

[tinyint]

I think another thing that gets on my tits is this "I'm a free thinker you're not" bullshit you get. It's like when people say "sheeple". It's so arrogant and patronising and so often comes from dimwits like tinyint. How do these people work out they're this awesome free spirit and the world just doesn't get it? - I was like that when I was 14 and I assumed it was something you grew out of along with angst-ridden diaries.
How does one deduce one is a "free mind"? Does anyone believe they have an unfree mind?
The worst one ever is 'swallow the red pill' or any other allusion to the matrix - or v for vendetta for that matter. How can people think they're all radical and shit and then use imagery from big budget Hollywood films to frame it?


Is that my problem to figure that one out?

meh

http://www.schafis.com/images/logos/schaf3.gif

Die Gedanken sind frei, wer kann sie erraten,
sie fliegen vorbei wie nächtliche Schatten.
Kein Mensch kann sie wissen, kein Jäger erschießen
mit Pulver und Blei, Die Gedanken sind frei!

Ich denke was ich will und was mich beglücket,
doch alles in der Still', und wie es sich schicket.
Mein Wunsch und Begehren kann niemand mir wehren,
es bleibet dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Und sperrt man mich ein im finsteren Kerker,
das alles sind rein vergebliche Werke.
Denn meine Gedanken zerreißen die Schranken
und Mauern entzwei, die Gedanken sind frei!

Drum will ich auf immer den Sorgen absagen
und will mich auch nimmer mit Grillen mehr plagen.
Man kann ja im Herzen stets lachen und scherzen
und denken dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Ich liebe den Wein, mein Mädchen vor allen,
sie tut mir allein am besten gefallen.
Ich sitz nicht alleine bei einem Glas Weine,
mein Mädchen dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Thoughts are free, who can guess them?
They flee by like nocturnal shadows.
No man can know them, no hunter can shoot them,
with powder and lead: Thoughts are free!

I think what I want, and what delights me,
still always reticent, and as it is suitable.
My wish and desire, no one can deny me
and so it will always be: Thoughts are free!

And if I am thrown into the darkest dungeon,
all this would be futile work,
because my thoughts tear all gates
and walls apart. Thoughts are free!

So I will renounce my sorrows forever,
and never again will torture myself with some fancy ideas.
In one's heart, one can always laugh and joke
and think at the same time: Thoughts are free!

I love wine, and my girl even more,
Only I like her best of all.
I'm not alone with my glass of wine,
my girl is with me: Thoughts are free!


Die Gedanken sind frei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :)

[dogsmilk]

Is that my problem to figure that one out?

meh

http://www.schafis.com/images/logos/schaf3.gif

You're the one claiming you're a "free mind" which is something I apparently have difficulty understanding so yes.

Don't worry - I am already aware it's just meaningless bullshit you think makes you sound cool. Just think - one of the older boys might think you're so cool they'll let you have a drag on a cigarette. Wow!

[tinyint]

You're the one claiming you're a "free mind" which is something I apparently have difficulty understanding so yes.

Don't worry - I am already aware it's just meaningless bullshit you think makes you sound cool. Just think - one of the older boys might think you're so cool they'll let you have a drag on a cigarette. Wow!

Look milky,

you are obviously the one who has problems to tolerate different opinions and resort to personal insults.

You reject any source which does not relates closely to your narrow weak mind.

On ignore again... as the dutch say ... twee minuten! :D

Mad Baby - YouTube

[dogsmilk]

Look milky,

you are obviously the one who has problems to tolerate different opinions and resort to personal insults.

You reject any source which does not relates closely to your narrow weak mind.

On ignore again... as the dutch say ... twee minuten! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGniu98YnDQ

This is simply the same old double standard. The blunt fact is people don't like it when you challenge their theory. I routinely get all kinds of stuff flung at me for arguing with deniers. Hey - like you with your "shill" routine. Or they ignore what I say. Practice what you preach - honestly engage with challenges to your own opinions. Hiding behind "I'm a free thinker so there" is just lame. And don't confuse being open minded with being credulous.

[tinyint]

This is simply the same old double standard. The blunt fact is people don't like it when you challenge their theory. I routinely get all kinds of stuff flung at me for arguing with deniers. Hey - like you with your "shill" routine. Or they ignore what I say. Practice what you preach - honestly engage with challenges to your own opinions. Hiding behind "I'm a free thinker so there" is just lame. And don't confuse being open minded with being credulous.

You are the right one talking about double standards. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Credulous is what you are proposing everybody to believe without proof. http://smilies.asmodiel.de/redo/wallbang.gif

And you are still on track derailing the topic.

Let me tell you, it has been rumored, that peres demanded one more sub and two corvettes from criminal to criminal govt when he was in germany and our leaders licked boots, just because he mentioned the holohoax.

It is also rumored pakistan will aquire updated better subs soon as well.

But that is just rumors, right?


Erdogan speaks against peres at Davos - English Subtitles (correct translation) - YouTubeCredulous, eh?